Mini Normal 2125: Chiptune Mafia [The End]

[Aloratom]

Hi.

[Aloratom]

What does llamaey mean?

[Aloratom]

A lot of energy on the room. Can't say I feel it yet.

[Aloratom]

Robb -- You feeling this game yet?

[Aloratom]

Updated list:

eyestott
Taly
Atarashi Hajimari
TheFuzzylogic99
Wiisp
robbnva
popsofctown
Taco
Aloratom
Y'shtola Rhul

VOTE: Y'shtola Rhul

You left Rabid Schnauzer off.

[Aloratom]

What does llamaey mean?

Guess it'd be rude to ignore this. Feeling llamaey is a more majestic way of feeling sheepy.

It's important you realise however that "llama" is pronounced "yama".

I don't know what feeling sheepy means either, but I appreciate your response.

[Aloratom]

Robb -- You feeling this game yet?

Why ask Robb this of everyone?

If you guys are best buds, I need to know now so that I can try and kill you together.

Robb's a good guy. As far as I know there's no reason to lol either of us.

[Aloratom]

*kill

[Aloratom]

Y'shtola Rhul! What comes to mind when you think of Aloratom?

Other than how handsome he is obviously.

I like this post!

[Aloratom]

Robb's a good guy

That’s going in my sig. nobody had ever said I’m a good guy

You've got your quirks, but we all do. I wouldn't want to be one who got under your skin.

[Aloratom]

Any other posts the past 4 pages?

There's not a whole lot there. I don't have much of a handle yet.

[Aloratom]

Y'shtola Rhul! What comes to mind when you think of Aloratom?

Other than how handsome he is obviously.

He could stand to raise his voice some more, but otherwise he's quite alright.

Mind explaining where these feelings of quite alrightness come from?

I like his matter of fairness. It is quite refreshing, actually.

I could listen to this kind of stuff all day.

Do either of you know anything about Rabid Schnauzer or Conspire?

[Aloratom]

Hmm... I got the opposite feel from Conspire. Like they were just looking for an excuse to scum read something.

[Aloratom]

Really? What gave you that impression? Do you think the fact they've posted only once means they're avoiding the thread?

It could be avoidance, I guess. It could be lurking. It could be not knowing what to say. It could be not having anything to add. It could be life getting in the way. I don't know.

[Aloratom]

Ame!

I'm not digging into this game super easily so far.

Wiisp is becoming a townread, because of the reverse survivalism inherent in aggravating Robbnva without actually getting votes onto him (man part of me wants to abbreviate "Robbnva" but I have played with Rob14 before and that makes it feel kinda wrong?)

I sympathize with Taly scumreading my slot, he wasn't explicit about it but I sense he's fairly allocating a Burden of good player on people, likewise giving Y'shtola a pass. Y'shtola seems to play kind of scummy as town, to me, I was in the mason game, although in that game being a mason is actually surprisingly similar to being scum so I'm not sure how much that counts for. I hope she plays later.

How nasty are nomnomnom's deadline? I'm not actually minding the slow pace in terms of fun factor, but if AI needs to be to be forced out then yada yada

Reverse survivalism? Can you parse that first sentence for me please?

[Aloratom]

Y'shtola Rhul! What comes to mind when you think of Aloratom?

Other than how handsome he is obviously.

I like this post!

Any other posts the past 4 pages?

There's not a whole lot there. I don't have much of a handle yet.

Did you really like the post or were you just joking because of the handsome bit?

60% in jest 40% good post for sorting.

[Aloratom]

VOTE: Aloratum not handsome

Buzzkill.

[Aloratom]

Scum care more about getting lynched than town, generally, at least in a game with nightkills. Wiisp's actions seemed to increase his odds of Wiisp getting lynched with an aggravated Robbnva voting the wagon. Therefore, Wiisp is >rand for town.

Gotcha. Thanks.

[Aloratom]

Ame, what makes you feel so confident that Pops is scum? Is this meta?

Thank you for asking this. I must admit it was all part of my masterplan to hint at someone else to ask Ame about her popsofctown read.

For those who don't understand what this questioning quota is;

I will now fullclaim:

At the beginning of the game, I started with a quota of questions I could ask other players.
Every time I ask a question, the number goes down by 1.
Every time I answer another player's question, the number goes up by 1.

My quota is currently at 1 since I recently answered a question from Taly. I will be using my questions more wisely. I also encourage people to ask me more questions so that I can replenish my quota.

It's a normal game though?

I was thinking this too. Is there a role in the normal queue that would have a post cap?

[Aloratom]

Warriors of Light (no particular order):

Taly, Paragon, Yshtola, Alo, New Beginnings

Angelic (npo):

eyestott*, Robb, Taco

Demonic (npo):

Rabid Schnauzer, Fuzzy, Wisp

Sin Eaters:

pops

VOTE: pops

*keeping my eyes on eyes

What is New Beginnings?

I think Conspire, whose one post the more I look at, the more I think is an attempt to take something innocuous and read something scummy into it. Without follow-up from them it's difficult to get a decent read, but right now they're in my suspicious group.

[Aloratom]

Conspire's

not even in the plist and I'm sure is

Paragon's

alt who he accidentally posted under 38 and 39

I don't know how this detail was missed.

How about you comment on what's present in the game right now?

Okay. I've got to go back and read in that context. I missed the makeup somehow. Thanks.

[Aloratom]

popsofctown is on L-1.

That's not even close to true. Not a good test if that's what you're after.

[Aloratom]

Aloratom, who is your strongest townread and why? Thank you very much.

1

Not much more than a Town lean on anyone right now. Wiisp v Robb seems TvT, but that's not original. Neither seems afraid of confrontation. Pops' "reverse survivalism" puts a label on it.

[Aloratom]

Aloratom, who is your strongest townread and why? Thank you very much.

1

Not much more than a Town lean on anyone right now. Wiisp v Robb seems TvT, but that's not original. Neither seems afraid of confrontation. Pops' "reverse survivalism" puts a label on it.

I'll add that I don't have the meta on players that a lot of you do. Players that have experience with others can use meta to spin things different ways, so that makes me wary of assigning Town or mafia labels to those with deep meta reads.

[Aloratom]

He’s got a gimmick. I normally hate gimmicks but this one isn’t annoying

Implied a recruiting ability in 46
Hinted at an investigative in 70
Hinted at Miller in 73
Macho Cop 93
Roleblocker 156
145 in retrospect was Paragon talking to himself and not being clear about asking Wiisp a question
164 was a disingenuous question to me when it could have been cleared up by just saying a mistake was made
197 claims to have a question quota role in a normal game
And 38 is still a scummy post

I'll give him the benefit of the doubt on the L-1 test, but it all adds up to scummy behavior to me.

VOTE: Paragon

[Aloratom]

Geez. Down 2 players and 300 posts to read. I have some work to do.

[Aloratom]

Spoiler:

Thank you for putting your GIFs in spoiler boxes.

[Aloratom]

Aloratom plays very differently as mafia. He likes to buddy people and feels inclined to fabricate reads. Here, he is honest about what's he's thinking and is not presenting and of the aforementioned behaviour. His push on me was in good faith.

Conspire has not posted much, but I really like their style. This might be more of a personality read than an alignment one.

7

You're still doing it. You need to stop both gimmicks. Your self-imposed post cap is just part of a bigger picture.

[Aloratom]

Aloratom plays very differently as mafia. He likes to buddy people and feels inclined to fabricate reads. Here, he is honest about what's he's thinking and is not presenting and of the aforementioned behaviour. His push on me was in good faith.

Conspire has not posted much, but I really like their style. This might be more of a personality read than an alignment one.

7

You're still doing it. You need to stop both gimmicks. Your self-imposed post cap is just part of a bigger picture.

Sorry, I saw the chance and I had to take it. Why do you think me doing that is scum-indicative? I'm just having some fun.

Giving reads for a player who isn't in the game is not only confusing, it's deceiving those repping in, and it skews how people view your reads as well as their own. If one of us is going on a snipe hunt and insists that others follow them, I can conclude only that they aren't interested in scum hunting but in discouraging others from doing so.

[Aloratom]

Yeah I don't know that I'm seeing as much scum in pops as some are. More like obstinate town. She's rubbing people the wrong way, and her copping the post restriction to make a point was odd, but she's right about Fuzzy and about Y'shtola. Fuzzy started strong and has since been MIA, and Y'shtola's role seems to be to stand by and wait for things to happen. Pops may be off-putting, but I'm not scum reading her right now.

[Aloratom]

And the big difference between pops' affect and paragon's gimmick was that pops didn't have the scummy baggage to go along with it, but I need to ISO to check that

[Aloratom]

Luca Blight, anything you’d like to discuss?

What do you think about him wanting to lynch Fuzzy?

[Aloratom]

I am trying to figure out honest votes bc the are honestly scum reading me and scum who might of jumped on my wagon c they saw an opportunity. i do not do great reading people and do better with VCA. I dislike to call to help wagon me especially so early in the game. its super scummy. My issue is I don't know if scum would be so blatantly openly scummy. There are a few other who seem to
casually jump on my wagon without much reason. i do think they need to be sorted at some point.

You do best with VCA. How do you analyze someone like Pops using VCA. I think she has had a vote on almost everyone.

[Aloratom]

Who's Tom?

Me

[Aloratom]

Can you read 159 to 214? I need a second pair of eyes there.

Are you talking about Pops' posts in that range? I'm having a hard time following some of this. I have a feeling I'm on a different planet than a lot of you because half of what y'all are saying I don't understand.

[Aloratom]

What do you think of Tom?

I find that I develop much stronger reads on people when I've interacted with them, so can I answer this question after I talk with Tom?

I feel like I'm at the grocery every time I scroll down to your avatar. I haven't ISOed you yet. Who is in your lynch pool?

[Aloratom]

@Taly
Fine Lynch, me i dont care... I trying to do the best I can. I m not going to fake reads and thoughts to make yall happy. It takes a bit for me to put my thoughts together/ I know I not super helpful atm. I am not like you and can make instant-reads. If yall cant understand that than just it over with......

Also how am any worse/ scummier then those who are jumping on the easiest wagon available and making zero reason to explain why.???

I think Paragon is newbtown. that is the vibe I am getting from him, I gues he could be newbscum but my potato senses is telling me newb town.

Btw- I was right about Paragon in post 388- (So there that)

Can people stop AtE'ing me at any point I ask for their perspective or tap them?

If you read my post in full, I'm not interested in pushing your lynch until I see more of your viewpoint on this game. I'm not telling you to fake reads, I'm asking what will help you form any if you don't have them.

And why are you posting the bolded question to me? I AM one of the people voicing the sentiment that your wagon is an easy push to get behind.

Can you read 159 to 214? I need a second pair of eyes there.

Are you talking about Pops' posts in that range? I'm having a hard time following some of this. I have a feeling I'm on a different planet than a lot of you because half of what y'all are saying I don't understand.

Specifically my interaction with

Pops

. Do you think it is a town-town argument?

Ugh. I might just wait for people to approach me at this point in the dayphase.

If you're talking about mine, a more precise question would have helped actually. "I need a second pair of eyes there," doesn't tell me much.

[Aloratom]

If you're talking about mine, a more precise question would have helped actually. "I need a second pair of eyes there," doesn't tell me much.

heh, I guess so. Yeah, I just want another opinion on when I began scumreading

Pops

so I can have new context when I re-ISO and I won't feel like I'm tunneling, or unjustly doing so.

Looking at that 1v1 in a vacuum, it looks TvT to me. I understand Pops' principle point about the burden of a good player -- the better you are the more there is expected of you. And looking at it from your point of view, it looked like you were getting lost in the Mafia game jargon. I think there was some miscommunication, but I didn't see any misrepresentations by either of you, just debate.

[Aloratom]

I’ve played with Town!tom before and he had consistently good insights and contributions, which have been sorely lacking his game. He has been sitting back and avoiding taking a stance on most things that have occurred unless prodded to do so. The exception is the Paragon/Conspire thing which, again, looks like surface level shade without any deeper thought behind it as to why those things are scum-indicative.

I lost my grip on this game pretty early on due to people talking about things that I don't understand, referring to what I presume are games or comics or anime or something -- and using jargon and acronyms I'm not familiar with. In the normal course, I'd ask for explanations, but it's been overwhelming this game, so I've just let it go for the most part. I'm a bit lost. You're absolutely correct that I've been sitting back and letting the game come to me. The two most substantive posts that I've had, as you pointed out, have been about Paragon. The first was early on and listed several things that he did to deceive not just me but the entire Town. As a whole, the items that I listed equated to behavior that stood out to me as something Town wouldn't do to other Town. With regard to the first two gimmicks (the post cap gimmick and the imaginary player gimmick -- not the new LARPing gimmick), after called on both gimmicks, he continued the behavior on the more egregious imaginary player gimmick and had the gall to continue to refer to his alt as if it were a player in this game. That's not Town behavior. It's rubbish deception, and I wasn't the only one hoodwinked by it. By labeling my push on him as shade, you are minimizing the effect of Paragon's behavior and its effect on the game. You indicate that Paragon has been doing more scum hunting than most, and I'll eventually go back and take a look at that. I just haven't been following along that closely because the posting has been ridiculously silly.

Spoiler:

Aloratom, who is your strongest townread and why? Thank you very much.

1

Not much more than a Town lean on anyone right now. Wiisp v Robb seems TvT, but that's not original. Neither seems afraid of confrontation. Pops' "reverse survivalism" puts a label on it.

If you're talking about mine, a more precise question would have helped actually. "I need a second pair of eyes there," doesn't tell me much.

heh, I guess so. Yeah, I just want another opinion on when I began scumreading

Pops

so I can have new context when I re-ISO and I won't feel like I'm tunneling, or unjustly doing so.

Looking at that 1v1 in a vacuum, it looks TvT to me. I understand Pops' principle point about the burden of a good player -- the better you are the more there is expected of you. And looking at it from your point of view, it looked like you were getting lost in the Mafia game jargon. I think there was some miscommunication, but I didn't see any misrepresentations by either of you, just debate.

That’s twice Tom’s put arguments down as TvT. I’ve always found this to be a lazy way of sorting that is often characteristic of scum, as it enables them to skip over most of what’s been said without needing to take much of a stance on it. Tom’s view on Pop has been a bit weird all game tbh, hence my comment that I feel they could be partners.

This is a generalization and indirect accusation that would hold more sincerity if taken up with me directly. Rather than asking me why I took a certain position, you label me as scum in a discussion with someone else because "this is something scum would do." You don't even get at the substance of the matter, other than my stance on Pops has been weird all game. What stance on Pops? My two or so posts, one where I call her obstinate Town and one where I tell Taly that I think their 1v1 was a TvT? Have I said anymore than that about Pops' alignment?

Yeah I don't know that I'm seeing as much scum in pops as some are. More like obstinate town. She's rubbing people the wrong way, and her copping the post restriction to make a point was odd, but she's right about Fuzzy and about Y'shtola. Fuzzy started strong and has since been MIA, and Y'shtola's role seems to be to stand by and wait for things to happen. Pops may be off-putting, but I'm not scum reading her right now.

I don’t see this view or Pops as ‘obstinate town’. And why isn’t Paragon obstinate town by the same token?

Tom is agreeing with Pops’s view on Fuzzy/Rhul, so why is Tom not pushing these players?

I get the impression that Pops is trying to drill down on everyone, although there haven't appeared to have been terrifically strong pushes. I call her obstinate town as she's the type of player to get under the skin of whomever she's engaged with while Paragon is just annoying. Pops' questions appear to shake people more than Paragon's.

With regard to Fuzzy, I could make a push, but why do I need to add to the pile on? I'm not going to do it just to prove that I'm Town. From what I've seen everyone else is doing a fine job taking them to task -- I've got nothing to add. And you've read Y'shtola's posts. Do you know what she's on about? Passive is how I'd describe her. I can't see how that's even an issue.

Luca Blight, anything you’d like to discuss?

What do you think about him wanting to lynch Fuzzy?

I’m unsure of the purpose behind this question - it feels as though by asking this question he is distancing himself from a Fuzzy wagon/lynch, but as we saw above he clearly agrees with Pops’ view on Fuzzy.

eyestott told someone, you I think, that they couldn't get a handle on me until they engaged with me, so I was trying to give them a softball question to work with, to open the door.

Aloratom plays very differently as mafia. He likes to buddy people and feels inclined to fabricate reads. Here, he is honest about what's he's thinking and is not presenting and of the aforementioned behaviour. His push on me was in good faith.

Conspire has not posted much, but I really like their style. This might be more of a personality read than an alignment one.

7

You're still doing it. You need to stop both gimmicks. Your self-imposed post cap is just part of a bigger picture.

Sorry, I saw the chance and I had to take it. Why do you think me doing that is scum-indicative? I'm just having some fun.

Giving reads for a player who isn't in the game is not only confusing, it's deceiving those repping in, and it skews how people view your reads as well as their own. If one of us is going on a snipe hunt and insists that others follow them, I can conclude only that they aren't interested in scum hunting but in discouraging others from doing so.

I feel as though Tom is exaggerating the issue here, and is being disingenuous in basing Paragon’s whole play on the gimmick and writing it off as being uninterested in scumhunting, when Paragon has clearly done more scumhunting than most this game.

I think I addressed this. You can call it disingenuous and/or shade on my part, but leading others to believe that there's another player in the game by conversing with that imaginary player is fraud. That cannot be dismissed with a hand wave, "Yeah, but look at the good they're doing over here..."

[Aloratom]

What do you think of Tom?

I find that I develop much stronger reads on people when I've interacted with them, so can I answer this question after I talk with Tom?

I feel like I'm at the grocery every time I scroll down to your avatar. I haven't ISOed you yet. Who is in your lynch pool?

To be honest, I'm not sure anymore. My scumreads on Fuzzy, Pops and Paragon have all weakened.

You know, I think I'm the only person in the game now that hasn't been the subject of a serious scumread and associating case against them.
I mean that no one has yet been like "Heres why eyestott is scum: yada yada yada"
It's good in that I can focus on reading people without also having to watch my back, but am I missing out on an integral part of the Mafia experience?

Anyways, hopefully I'll have a bit more clarity with my reads by the end of the night. Let's go!

It helps when you're able to let your reads develop organically and not have them forced upon you I think. By your join date, I see that you've been around this a lot longer than I have, so I'm not telling you anything that you don't already know, but I've found it varies from game to game. And it's evolved for me since I started playing at the end of last year as well. I've found that it's usually not good for me to be forced to make reads because a lot of times those turn out to be mistakes. I prefer to take things in at my own pace. For me this makes for stronger, more correct reads.

I may agree with you on Paragon I think, although I need to go through an ISO there. But his Conspire deception is going to be a big factor in my analysis. That pretty much wiped out my first two or three days of reads before I became aware of what was happening and combined with the crazy way the posting has been in this game, my interest has waned significantly. I have a Town lean on Pops, and Fuzzy a scum lean still. I just need to go back and re-read/catch-up.

[Aloratom]

@

Tom:

I can understand your PoV a bit better now. Ngl, I was impressed by your play in that other game and have been disappointed by what I’ve seen from you so far. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt for now that you’re still working your way into the game.

UNVOTE:

I don’t think Paragon is a good lynch for today, so maybe you can try and work with me on someone else? How are you feeling about the Rob/Math slot?

I'll take a look at that slot -- for some reason I thought Ame repped in for Robb, but looking back I see she repped in for Atarashi. I also need to take a look at yours; I didn't like Rabid Schnauzer's entrance too much, but he was gone fairly quickly so I'm guessing there isn't much there. But, yes, I'll look at NDMath/Robb first.

[Aloratom]

Aloratom stuff you personally consider to be anti-town does not equate to being scum-indicative. For example, Robb gets in a death tunnel on a slot for personal reasons every game and it's extremely anti-town, but it's not indicative of him being scum. To scum read him for that is what I would consider a superficial read because it's failing to look beyond behavior and read into motivation. In a similar vein, your read on Paragon is superficial as you've only been describing why his behavior is anti-town and not how it indicates a scum mentality. At least a couple of us have explained that this behavior is normal for Paragon. It's entirely NAI.

As Luca said, your case is that Para isn't interested in scum hunting, but this is cherry picking. Yeah if you only take those two examples (conspire and his restriction) you could paint it as so, but that's ignoring the vast majority of his play where he clearly is displaying a solve mentality, including his play

before

he started the restriction.

I think if you go back and read my response to Luca more carefully and then my response to eyestott, you will see that my take on Paragon is not set in stone.

[Aloratom]

Aloratom stuff you personally consider to be anti-town does not equate to being scum-indicative. For example, Robb gets in a death tunnel on a slot for personal reasons every game and it's extremely anti-town, but it's not indicative of him being scum. To scum read him for that is what I would consider a superficial read because it's failing to look beyond behavior and read into motivation. In a similar vein, your read on Paragon is superficial as you've only been describing why his behavior is anti-town and not how it indicates a scum mentality. At least a couple of us have explained that this behavior is normal for Paragon. It's entirely NAI.

As Luca said, your case is that Para isn't interested in scum hunting, but this is cherry picking. Yeah if you only take those two examples (conspire and his restriction) you could paint it as so, but that's ignoring the vast majority of his play where he clearly is displaying a solve mentality, including his play

before

he started the restriction.

I think if you go back and read my response to Luca more carefully and then my response to eyestott, you will see that my take on Paragon is not set in stone.

[Aloratom]

I lost my grip on this game pretty early on due to people talking about things that I don't understand, referring to what I presume are games or comics or anime or something -- and using jargon and acronyms I'm not familiar with.

I find this sort of lazy mindset frustrating. What jargon have you not understood? It doesn't take much to ask about it and such terms and Ysha's role-play have been such a minuscule part of the game I find it absurd that it's preventing you from playing properly. I wasn't aware of what Yshas role play was a reference to either, but it didn't matter in the slightest. There's nothing about it aside from her 678 that has been confusing. I find you blaming your laziness when it comes to interpretation on everyone else absurd.


BTW @Yasha

We have identified the existence of one such creature in this very room

Who are you referring to here? You unvoted pops but didn't place your vote elsewhere.

You neglected to quote the subsequent sentence from that quote: "In the normal course, I'd ask for explanations, but it's been overwhelming this game, so I've just let it go for the most part." I'm not concerned that you're frustrated that I'm not playing to your standards. I don't even mind you calling me lazy. You are right that whatever Y'shtola is doing (if it's role playing, I'll take your word for it), is a small part of the game, but it is part of a greater whole. I'm just going to play at my own pace and make the best reads I can.

[Aloratom]

I think I addressed this. You can call it disingenuous and/or shade on my part, but leading others to believe that there's another player in the game by conversing with that imaginary player is fraud. That cannot be dismissed with a hand wave, "Yeah, but look at the good they're doing over here..."

Why is it scum-indicative? That's the important thing you need to focus on. Sure, you can find it disrespectful/improper, but why is it more likely to come from scum rather than town in this case?

It's scummy because it skews reads. This is a zero sum proposition. We have only so many Town players and so many mafia players. Assigning who gets which label is made more difficult if we don't know who the proper players are. I think you know that.

[Aloratom]

@

Tom:

I can understand your PoV a bit better now. Ngl, I was impressed by your play in that other game and have been disappointed by what I’ve seen from you so far. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt for now that you’re still working your way into the game.

UNVOTE:

I don’t think Paragon is a good lynch for today, so maybe you can try and work with me on someone else? How are you feeling about the Rob/Math slot?

I don't think anything that Robb did was particularly AI. He moved his vote a few places, settling on Pops. Ame's not wrong when she says that once Robb gets locked, he'll death tunnel. He'll even admit that. I have a feeling he was headed in that direction, and I give him credit for dropping the game when he did.

Anyway, NDMath's entry post 519 was somewhat odd in the sense that it looks like he put work into it, but it could have been written better and more thought could have been gone into it. Not giving links to posts makes it difficult to follow trains of thought. He didn't understand my push on Paragon obviously; I'm not sure what he means by me being scared of mechanics. He gives several other surface reads with no basis, and then gives a couple of possible scum trios: paragon/pops/? or fuzzy/rabid/?, but no reasoning behind them.

NDMath was taken in by the Paragon's Conspire con in 565, so I can understand some overall confusion there. And he makes a big push on Paragon in 767 that I'm not sure I completely get.

Perhaps the most striking thing I see is in NDMath's 519 entry post he was Town reading Paragon, and then in 565 he voted Paragon with no explanation other than "Gonna put my vote on paragon for now since I'm uncomfortable putting pops at L-1 at this moment." Those posts are timestamped about 10 hours apart. That's seems odd.

I guess I can see a scum lean here, but I don't know that I'm ready to lynch the slot for being scummy yet. Actually, I'm a bit surprised you want to go after NDMath after your bit about it being easy for scum to get away with tunneling in this situation after their replacing out.

Do you want to lynch this slot because you find it scummy or for analysis?

[Aloratom]

Alo you're talking around what I'm actually saying but I think you're town anyway. On a personal note, I appreciate your writing style. It's pleasing to read.

btw is it 'Alora Tom' or 'Alor Atom' or 'Al or Atom' or just 'Aloratom' or other?

Thank you for the note.

I'm good with any of the above names.

[Aloratom]

I think I addressed this. You can call it disingenuous and/or shade on my part, but leading others to believe that there's another player in the game by conversing with that imaginary player is fraud. That cannot be dismissed with a hand wave, "Yeah, but look at the good they're doing over here..."

Why is it scum-indicative? That's the important thing you need to focus on. Sure, you can find it disrespectful/improper, but why is it more likely to come from scum rather than town in this case?

It's scummy because it skews reads. This is a zero sum proposition. We have only so many Town players and so many mafia players. Assigning who gets which label is made more difficult if we don't know who the proper players are. I think you know that.

That's antitown, not scummy. It is pretty rare for scum to recognize and antitown potential impact they could have on the game, assess the benefit of inflicting that evil on everyone outweighs the risk to one's own slot (pretty much any action has risk if you rolled scum), then carry it out. I saw volxen do it in getting a town go choose a certain setup in a choose-your-setuppy game and because there wasn't a strong consensus on which one was best, so convincing everyone to make the wrong move didn't seem antitown. Day 4 of Assassin's Mafia I judged everyone alive was enough of a baddie not to recognize it and pushed for a massclaim that wasn't really protown for that dayphase. Also at a couple points in that game's late prodfest I lurked down to everyone else's level of low activity to keep the game's poor momentum poor, that would be the one time where everyone would easily agree the impact was antitown, and I did feel a bit like I was getting away with murder, but an omission of something is a bit easier to hide, the forum software didn't post "pops typed up a reads list after tris's post, then realized she should let this game die and deleted it". I struggled to come up with even qualified examples after playing lots of Mafia lately because it's so very rare and not how scumteams win Mafia games.

The only version of gimmick criticism I've heard all game that resembles validity is the notion I claimed a post restriction to defuse a Paragon lynch (I backspaced main's name sorry in advance when that happens) and by not directly towncasing that helped me manage my associatives in a hypothetical Paragon-pops team. Thats because it's based on something being pro-pops, not just something being antitown.

What we're talking about is who is acting as a flim-flam artist in an attempt to meet their win condition, and there's a nuance here, it seems, that's even more distinct. In my eyes, the Conspire con is scummy behavior, while the post-restriction gimmick is simply anti-town. The Conspire con is scummy because it causes the rest of the players to mis-label their reads. It causes people to change their course of action based on intentional misinformation. The post-restriction gimmick simply confuses the game state. If a player acts in both scummy ways and anti-Town ways, that player is scummy.

[Aloratom]

Alo you're talking around what I'm actually saying but I think you're town anyway. On a personal note, I appreciate your writing style. It's pleasing to read.

btw is it 'Alora Tom' or 'Alor Atom' or 'Al or Atom' or just 'Aloratom' or other?

Thank you for the note.

I'm good with any of the above names.

What about Alolan Tom, the Tom with a different typing and passive ability.

As a comment on my play style I can get on board with that for the most part.

[Aloratom]

My play is so drastically different from my scum game, I think you would pick up on it.

2 scum really changes things.

Pops/Para : Luca/Para : Luca/Taly

One of these is the scum team.

Why just two scum? I realize there was a conversation about it earlier, but you sound pretty confident.

And are you basing the teams on associatives, scummy behavior or vote analysis?

[Aloratom]

UNVOTE: Paragon

It's obvious this isn't going anywhere today, but I still have a scum read there. I'm starting to really come around to Fuzzy and NDMath. It's difficult for me to do pre-flip associations though, so I'm not saying they're necessarily a team.

[Aloratom]

morning

wiisp <3 <3 <3

lmk what you think of this past page

1. Everytime Paragon puts a number at the bottom of his post I want to lynch him more
2. Him saying the lynch pool should be lurkers is terrible

You quoting without saying anything... Does that mean that you endorse this post?

[Aloratom]

VOTE: Pop

There was 1 maybe two post that read town but everything seemed forced. They don't explain why they are voting for a person unless
asked as if they are hoping that they can sneak in a vote. It could be just playstyle but overall I am just getting a scum vibe from them. I kinda want to see where this leads

This seems kind of weak reasoning -- a scum vibe and feeling forced. Is there anything more to it? I'm re-evaluating Pops myself, but I don't know that I've seen anything that appears forced.

[Aloratom]

UNVOTE: Paragon

It's obvious this isn't going anywhere today, but I still have a scum read there. I'm starting to really come around to Fuzzy and NDMath. It's difficult for me to do pre-flip associations though, so I'm not saying they're necessarily a team.

I'll make you see I'm town in time, Tom <3

What caused you to come round to Fuzzylogic99 and NDMath?

819 started my hard look at NDMath. I really didn't like his response in 828 regarding a read change. I've had a scum lean on Fuzzy for awhile. His last post 822 seemed a weak-reasoned vote for as deep as we are into Day 1.

[Aloratom]

Oh man. I don't know.

[Aloratom]

VOTE: Pop

There was 1 maybe two post that read town but everything seemed forced. They don't explain why they are voting for a person unless
asked as if they are hoping that they can sneak in a vote. It could be just playstyle but overall I am just getting a scum vibe from them. I kinda want to see where this leads

This seems kind of weak reasoning -- a scum vibe and feeling forced. Is there anything more to it? I'm re-evaluating Pops myself, but I don't know that I've seen anything that appears forced.

I dislike that Alolan Tom is "Re-evaluating" my slot. It is natural and potentially towny to want to re-evaluate slots, but it's not as much a natural response when the slot is kind of spammy and kind of monolithic so it feels like a poor copy-paste, and the reasons re-evaluating my slot fmpov are convenient is pretty obvious

That language, however, invites a more thoughtful, less confrontational dialogue with Fuzzy than "Your reasoning is weak. Why would you even say what you did." At the time, I was hoping that Fuzzy would expound a bit more on where he was going. There will be a time for a more aggressive time, but that wasn't it.

Back to Fuzzy's read, I was surprised that you thought it was solid, even if it didn't have merit. I obviously didn't see it that way.

[Aloratom]

I have to agree with a few others on NDMath and say that that is an odd reads list post. I say it like that intentionally. Some of the reads are odd. But the post itself is odd -- not in line with what we've seen from NDMath thus far.

[Aloratom]

Mod notice

• Churros replaces Taco, which is hilarious.

That cracks me up.

[Aloratom]

VOTE: NDMath

This is a good wagon.

[Aloratom]

Still at least L-2 I think.

[Aloratom]

When you look to identify play by Y'shtola Rhul, you can expect to find play by Y'shtola Rhul.

Can you explain what you mean here?

[Aloratom]

Does a Sin Eater recognize a threat to their existence? Those who have much to lose from their peers view those peers in a different light than those who would act for a higher purpose. Awareness grows, as one misstep may make the difference between an encapsulating crescendo and the illusion of falling off a tightrope overwhelming you.

Warriors of Light need only save themselves by telling the truth and trusting those who listen will recognize it as such. For stories that cannot be disproven, this will never result in damnation, only salvation or an extension of the trial of the heart. Sin Eaters must consider that by their own mouth, their damnation may be assured. This pressure creates a difference in posture, their words less reflective of their heart, their stances based on survival rather than truth.

For this case, which prevails? The thoughts ring true relative to their past testimony, their stances the same, their uncertainty reflective of their absence. Why then, say you, would a Sin Eater return for such a small token of their continued thoughts continuing when such thoughts brought them ire before? It is preposterous, for a Sin Eater must convince the town with honeyed words and conceived pretense to cover their darkened thoughts. Such is not the case, for none as such is present.

You don' t like to initiate conversation, do you? I notice that you ask vague questions and talk about theory but you dance around specifics. Why should I not scum read you?

[Aloratom]

Someone unvote please

UNVOTE: NDMath

For now.

[Aloratom]

Allo, wouldn't you be interested in Taly, or at least Fuzzy?

I remember you saying Fuzzy was in your PoE as well, do you think NDmath is the higher odds lynch here or it's just because he already has a wagon on him opposed to fuzzy?

Fuzzy maybe, but I think NDMath is the better lynch today.

[Aloratom]

I get the impression that Pops is trying to drill down on everyone, although there haven't appeared to have been terrifically strong pushes. I call her obstinate town as she's the type of player to get under the skin of whomever she's engaged with while Paragon is just annoying. Pops' questions appear to shake people more than Paragon's.

Can you point out the posts that gave you the impression that she was trying to drill down on everyone (and how it has been different than Paragon). Additionally, can you explain the difference between "getting under one's skin" and "annoying": is?

It's been awhile since I've posted this so I'll need some time to find examples. As far as the questioning goes, Pops' questions seem to have more substance, or at least did to that point, than Paragon's. And early on I got an irritating vibe from her where she seemed to be making people squirm a bit while Paragon was more of a fly that you just kept swatting at but couldn't shake.

[Aloratom]

You do best with VCA. How do you analyze someone like Pops using VCA. I think she has had a vote on almost everyone.

Why did you ask this?

I don't know how to use VCA all that well, but it seems to me that a player who moves their vote around a lot would be more difficult to analyze. But I may be wrong. That may be just my ignorance talking.

[Aloratom]

Why did you ask it though? Because you felt it was a discrepancy in Fuzz's game play?

That was genuine curiosity.

[Aloratom]

I really didn't like his response in 828 regarding a read change.

What don't you like about it?

Did you answer this btw?

I think it was if his read was changing as the post was developing, he could have put something to that effect in the post itself, and if he did put it in the post itself, which he kind of did, why not say that in 828?

[Aloratom]

Hello.

The vote stays.

Does the character?

[Aloratom]

Wait. Wiisp, the push is aids?

[Aloratom]

Far be it from me to lecture anyone, but mindfulness never a bad idea.

[Aloratom]

maybe I'm not toxic
if Ame is toxic enough to make someone replace out then everyone must be toxic
or something

That's not on anyone but the player himself.

[Aloratom]

Are you leaving your vote there, Pops because there slot's scummy or another reason?

[Aloratom]

*their

[Aloratom]

Mod notice

• Wiisp has asked to be replaced. Seeking a replacement.

R/amithebadguy

It's not on you.

[Aloratom]

Damnit, three people*
Why’d it fuck with your brain?

It embodies all the problems I have with the reads on you.

Ame

literally said:

~Eyes I'd take to lylo, but despite what I said earlier I still don't have them as solid town. They just give me the vibe of someone who could deepwolf. I skimmed through their last scum game and it was quite different, but it was also years ago.

She said that you COULD be a deepwolf but she's openly admitting to that but she's not critically solving you.

She says that you're not solid town but she's saying that she'd take you to lylo.

How the fuck does this come from town - especially in D1?

Like, if

Ame

were town, and

you

were town: Wonderful! But... not really, because her read isn't reliable here.
If

Ame

were town, and

you

were scum: Good game, scum wins.
If

Ame

were scum, and

you

were town: Well, that makes a lot of sense why she's townreading you, and more sense because she's stating there's a reality that you're scum if you make it to endgame, which is a load of WIFOM.
If

Ame

were scum, and

you

were scum: Really good plan to have scum townbloc together or at least construct a bus prior to much discussion since the read was never really resolved.

None of these are desirable outcomes, and nobody else in this game sees it the way I do and THAT'S what fucks me up even more.

With posts like this, I don't know if you're creating WIFOM for yourself or WIFOM for the rest of us. I get the feeling it's for yourself, which is unnecessary, really.

[Aloratom]

I don't know, I'm just telling you guys that these are the type of posts that I don't know how to solve, so I need help with them.

Same here.

[Aloratom]

With posts like this, I don't know if you're creating WIFOM for yourself or WIFOM for the rest of us. I get the feeling it's for yourself, which is unnecessary, really.

Myself, 1482 is how my brain works when I read reads like that.

If WIFOM was meant for all of you, I wouldn't be nearly as upfront and honest.

That's kind of what I thought.

[Aloratom]

@Pops

To be fair I didn't think much of NDmath slot until mostly the read list thing, but my mind was on Taly/Fuzzy way early and that post didn't make me want to switch main focus.

By suspicious do you mean you're suspicious I'm like, trying to distract from the NDmath wagon or something?

I know this is super self-conscious but I do think the chance of NDmath flipping scum is decent and I'm actually gonna be disappointed if I get tied to him because I'm pursuing Taly right now.

Especially given that by my read list it's not difficult to see one of my solves would be something like [Fuzzy/Taly/Math]. At the moment I don't want to risk going for what I see a lower odd/reward lynch though...

If it's for another reason you don't trust me it's ok. kinda?

Can you explain how that is "super self-conscious" since I don't follow.

Can you explain your reads a bit more?

Particularly your scumreads and your progression on Tom.

He's the type of player I struggle to play with, as in end up scunreading each other and disagree with principles. I wasn't posting thoughts related to this, but the town read grew as I realized this was the case. They also had a string of posts which were another big change in the read, which now I really need to find. Also when I scumread paragon more they had moved closer to null because the two don't really work as w/w.

Can I ask what you mean by disagree with principles?

[Aloratom]

It's hard to measure this game to normal D1's as we still have 4 days left and we're nearing 1500 posts.

We're not overly chatty and shitposting, either.

A lot of slots have content to parse and people are consistent.

So I don't know.

Eyestott

, how do you feel about

Ame

being OK going to lylo with you because the statement fucked with my brain very hard.

With 5 1/2 replacements it can get a little hard to follow too.

[Aloratom]

Actually, this is a VERY good question and I want an answer to this.

Mine includes Robb's posts. But I don't think that Robb did anything particularly AI. I think he was fixing to get locked into a tunnel on Paragon and am happy he switched his vote to Pops. I say that last bit because that could have put a lot of stress on the game, not because I'm just happy that he switched off of Paragon and onto Pops -- I disagreed with that as a game play. But the slot overall took a dive with NDMath's entrance, although I need to take a closer look at NDMath's most recent posts.

[Aloratom]

Major Insight
Tbh at this moment, Y'shtola only makes sense as scum if she has AT LEAST ONE PARTNER in {Luca/Ame/Pops/Paragon} by 1007's post and the consistent suspicion on her from the more active players to be bus-minded. But then again, I think Y'shtola is town based off what I'm seeing, so this is just a boundary on the realities I can see her as scum.

I don't know, Y'shtola being scum in a reality that's not like the above... like bravo, how the fuck can this be faked? I want to be challenged on this.

Let's talk about this then. Can you explain it in a bit more depth? Where did that list come from?[/quote]

Are you talking about the partner list of {Luca/Ame/Pops/Paragon}? Because I'm wondering about that too. I think Y'shtola can be read scum independently.

[Aloratom]

Major Insight
Tbh at this moment, Y'shtola only makes sense as scum if she has AT LEAST ONE PARTNER in {Luca/Ame/Pops/Paragon} by 1007's post and the consistent suspicion on her from the more active players to be bus-minded. But then again, I think Y'shtola is town based off what I'm seeing, so this is just a boundary on the realities I can see her as scum.

I don't know, Y'shtola being scum in a reality that's not like the above... like bravo, how the fuck can this be faked? I want to be challenged on this.

Let's talk about this then. Can you explain it in a bit more depth? Where did that list come from?

Let me try this again.

Are you talking about the partner list of {Luca/Ame/Pops/Paragon}? Because I'm wondering about that too. I think Y'shtola can be read scum independently.

[Aloratom]

When you look to identify play by Y'shtola Rhul, you can expect to find play by Y'shtola Rhul.

Can you explain what you mean here?

Signs that Y'shtola Rhul are playing are what you find when looking for signs that Y'shtola Rhul are playing.

It is self-evident, for the two are one and the same.

Does a Sin Eater recognize a threat to their existence? Those who have much to lose from their peers view those peers in a different light than those who would act for a higher purpose. Awareness grows, as one misstep may make the difference between an encapsulating crescendo and the illusion of falling off a tightrope overwhelming you.

Warriors of Light need only save themselves by telling the truth and trusting those who listen will recognize it as such. For stories that cannot be disproven, this will never result in damnation, only salvation or an extension of the trial of the heart. Sin Eaters must consider that by their own mouth, their damnation may be assured. This pressure creates a difference in posture, their words less reflective of their heart, their stances based on survival rather than truth.

For this case, which prevails? The thoughts ring true relative to their past testimony, their stances the same, their uncertainty reflective of their absence. Why then, say you, would a Sin Eater return for such a small token of their continued thoughts continuing when such thoughts brought them ire before? It is preposterous, for a Sin Eater must convince the town with honeyed words and conceived pretense to cover their darkened thoughts. Such is not the case, for none as such is present.

You don' t like to initiate conversation, do you? I notice that you ask vague questions and talk about theory but you dance around specifics. Why should I not scum read you?

Listen well, for my words provide the wisdom you seek. You need only read beyond what is present to your eyes. Read with your heart.

What's the scumread on here and we're >3 days to deadline so you should do something here...

Those posts don't answer my questions. She's been speaking in vagueries for the most part since we started and not playing the game near as I can tell.

[Aloratom]

One thing I don't like about my SR of Blake/Y'shtola is I don't think she'd bus a scum partner so early, and right now her vote is on Fuzzy, who I also have a SR on. So I don't know. That makes me look toward NDMath more.

[Aloratom]

oof, I'm going to be doing people's work for them...

Alo/NDMath/Luca

are actually next ISOs.

Luca

, I'm having a lot of trouble fathoming the votepark wagon on

NDMath

.

For 50+ pages of content, a replace-in getting the lynch for a

"bad readslist"

that's no worse than most other readslist in this game - AND has expressed that they haven't provided a full train of thought... it's just doesn't feel lynch-worthy, or overtly scum-indicative.

With this stagnant voting near EoD1, I'm starting to think most of scum have casted their votes and have consistently bloc'ed onto one of the day's major wagons, potentially even the current ones

Fuzzy/NDMath

.

I believe town is on that wagon, but I don't think it's scum-pushed... If the problem people have with

NDMath

is

"their reasoning being faked"

then why don't they put effort in themselves to read them?

Regardless of

NDMath's

alignment, I don't think this wagon is getting anywhere other than one of the stalest ass lynches that we could pull right now.

I'm thoroughly unconvinced and I'm even more vexed that people aren't trying to convince me. It's sketchy as hell considering the gamestate.

Very good point, Taly. Specifically that last line. UNVOTE:
If you had some voting power; who would you have lynched today?

The last line as in no one is trying to convince Taly? I don't see how that would convince you to change your vote. I could see how his point about scum maybe being on that wagon might though.

[Aloratom]

What do you mean "look toward"?

As in look harder at. I had a SR there, but they or someone else posted something that made me want to take another look at them -- I don't remember right now. I just need to follow up.

[Aloratom]

Disagree on basic stuff like "what is protown?", "what is inherently scummy?", "when is wifom used?" and similar stuff which apply to all games and many situations in those games.

How would that change your read of me this game? Actually, how would you determine that to begin with? I don't think we've played together before have we?

[Aloratom]

I started working on this yesterday, so it doesn't necessarily take into account the most recent posts.

eyestott - T
Taly - T
Ame - T
Wiisp - null T
popsofctown - null T
Luca - null
churros - null
Paragon - null s
NDMath - s
TheFuzzylogic99 - s
Blake/Yshtola - s

I'm fairly sure about my top 2 (as much as you can be Day 1 I guess). I wish Ame hadn't repped out because her last reads list left a lot of questions to be answered. Wiisp has been pretty steady null Town, and I got the impression last night was frustrated Town. Pops may be more of a null than null Town -- she's cryptic. Luca's cryptic too, but he's a good (as in active) replacement for Rabid Schnauzer, and I expect we'll hear more from him. Churros/Taco I have no idea just because of the lack of content from that slot. I've progressed on Paragon some after the initial cons that he ran -- I still think the Conspire con is a huge mark against him -- but I will admit that overall he seems to be playing somewhat Townish. NDMath and Fuzzy have been scum reads for awhile now, although my progression on NDMath may be changing. Fuzzy just doesn't seem to improve on re-read. Blake/Yshtola is just not playing the game, giving puzzling what I think you can call reads (this was yesterday -- even given her most recent posts I don't know that I can give her the benefit of the doubt -- it feels kind of scummy for some reason to switch up midstream, but I could see arguments either way for it).

I don't really like to label people as null, but this day has been so long, and I've gone back and forth on so many, and there have been so many replacements. I almost feel like any reads list is going to be faulty just because of all the replacements, although theoretically it shouldn't matter because the slot is what the slot is. The play style is still going to change though. The replace outs are just frustrating, especially when we have something like two days left, and I don't want to ask for an extension because we've gone on so long already.

[Aloratom]

The first quote was a rewording of the original point, which I had responded to popsofctown with for attempting to metaread me. She only found things that indicated that Y'shtola Rhul was playing, so I said the equivalent to "of course you will only find me playing, because that's all you looked for." It's self-evident because it had even been stated in this game already that my only completed game on that account was as a role that functioned similarly to the mafia, which I was removed from early on in the game.

The second quote is me telling you to read the post again and read what I'm saying beyond the roleplay. I have said quite a lot in this game, it just takes an extra step to find the meanings.

I've had reads, which I had made clear at several points throughout my ISO. I've had content, but it took me beating people over the head with it for people to realize it.

Taly made a pretty accurate analysis of what I've been saying throughout the game. That post is a good starting point.

I've got to think about this. I'm not sure right now how I feel about your slot. I'm really conflicted.

[Aloratom]

I’m barely caught up but this is roughly where I’m at:

Town: Paragon, Fire, Churros

Town-leans: Pops, SS

Null-ish: Taly, Bella, Stott

Scum-leans: Fuzzy, Math, Tom


Just for reference mainly as I still need to read deeper, but I’m pretty certain I only want to lynch in that bottom pile today.

Why do you have Firebringer high Town? And why am I in your lynch pool?

[Aloratom]

I don't think that's an acceptable answer, but we can suss that out later I suppose. There are bigger fish to fry.

[Aloratom]

eyestott - T
Taly - T
Ame - T
Wiisp - null T
popsofctown - null T
Luca - null
churros - null
Paragon - null s
NDMath - s
TheFuzzylogic99 - s
Blake/Yshtola - s

I just stated why I think your bottom scumreads are town, and I am your townread, help me out here.

The world where Blake is scum with Taly makes plenty of sense admittedly

fmpov Taly isn't really scumreading any scum, only scumreads I remember from him are Paragon and me, really.

Can you please explain your

Ame

and

Paragon

townreads?

The only real takeaway from your ISO on Fuzzy that I come closest to agreeing with is:

Major Insight
Yeah, only definite conclusion is Fuzzy/Paragon isn't S/S. Town must be here. T/T is also equally likely as S/T. Anyone who wants a lynch between these two may do well to re-evaluate.

and the question about whether those wanting an NDMath lynch are taking Robb's posts into account.

I can still see a game where they are both mafia, but I think that it's not as likely as I thought it was earlier in the game. And I don't think in associatives for the most part anyway. Individually, I can see scum in both of them. Fuzzy more so than Paragon.

We've seen barely anything substantive from Fuzzy for almost a week. I agree that his early stuff was relatively strong, but he has grown progressively scattered, and I still think that 822 is a weakly reasoned vote.

[Aloratom]

Why did you question my Fire read when you also had Ame as high town?

Any response to Taly’s 1600?

Bah. I had Firebringer subbing in for Wiisp.

And I'm wading through Taly's ISOs.

[Aloratom]

eyestott - T
Taly - T
Ame - T
Wiisp - null T
popsofctown - null T
Luca - null
churros - null
Paragon - null s
NDMath - s
TheFuzzylogic99 - s
Blake/Yshtola - s

I just stated why I think your bottom scumreads are town, and I am your townread, help me out here.

The world where Blake is scum with Taly makes plenty of sense admittedly

fmpov Taly isn't really scumreading any scum, only scumreads I remember from him are Paragon and me, really.

Can you please explain your

Ame

and

Paragon

townreads?

The only real takeaway from your ISO on Fuzzy that I come closest to agreeing with is:

Major Insight
Yeah, only definite conclusion is Fuzzy/Paragon isn't S/S. Town must be here. T/T is also equally likely as S/T. Anyone who wants a lynch between these two may do well to re-evaluate.

and the question about whether those wanting an NDMath lynch are taking Robb's posts into account.

I can still see a game where they are both mafia, but I think that it's not as likely as I thought it was earlier in the game. And I don't think in associatives for the most part anyway. Individually, I can see scum in both of them. Fuzzy more so than Paragon.

We've seen barely anything substantive from Fuzzy for almost a week. I agree that his early stuff was relatively strong, but he has grown progressively scattered, and I still think that 822 is a weakly reasoned vote.

Actually, looking at it closer, Fuzzy's been scattered since the beginning. Unfocused. Earlier in the game I took it as not AI, but now I think it looks more scum motivated.

[Aloratom]

eyestott - T
Taly - T
Ame - T
Wiisp - null T
popsofctown - null T
Luca - null
churros - null
Paragon - null s
NDMath - s
TheFuzzylogic99 - s
Blake/Yshtola - s

I just stated why I think your bottom scumreads are town, and I am your townread, help me out here.

The world where Blake is scum with Taly makes plenty of sense admittedly

fmpov Taly isn't really scumreading any scum, only scumreads I remember from him are Paragon and me, really.

Can you please explain your

Ame

and

Paragon

townreads?

Your Y'shtola ISO was done before the Blake reveal, which was apparently a surprise to you, and you are familiar with Blake's meta. Does that change your read?

[Aloratom]

I'm going back to where I think the better lynch for today is.

VOTE: NDMath

[Aloratom]

I'm having a hard time sorting NDMath, Blake and Churros right now, and I'll have more on that.

Taly, I'm Town reading you, but the outrage is a bit suspect given that you were against a Fuzzy lynch I thought but ended up on his wagon. I need to look at exactly how that occurred. Was it at EOD? Can you explain how that happened?

[Aloratom]

The extra kill has to be from a form of vigilante. (1-shot, full, JOAT, etc.)

In fact

VOTE: Blake

I didn't forget you taly I just think this is more interesting to pursue right now.

'iInteresting' is a good word choice here.
VOTE: Blake

She was pretty much the only person who thought fuzzy's lynch would probably hit scum (maybe barring pops who fuzzy was tunnelling.) And I find it scummy how the flip against her reads almost makes her more confident in her reads.
I agree with Churros that her answers about Rhul don't quite hold up either.

I thought your read on Blake was Town. In fact, yesterday you said something about it not making any sense at all her being scum. Now she's hard scum? How does your read flip like that? It's essentially the obverse of what you just accused her of doing.

[Aloratom]

Mmm, that may change. Haven't felt anything overtly scum-indicative.

S_S

pings me more for lack of content,

NDMath

because of his lackluster D2 posting, and

Alo

also had net 0 to discuss when there was plenty of content to.

Part of my quick townreading of

Blake/Churros

is that I don't see why scum would still be in the limelight if town has been pretty much cannibalized each other this game so far.

And there's just so much opportunity for

Blake/Churros

to scumread, misrep, or dismiss the other people's POV but they're working cohesively last page.

So yeah, my reads are becoming PoE based, and it makes sense given the gamestate read where

Blake/Churros

are town since we're the most vocal.

We're not even 24 hours into Day 2, Taly. It's a little early to be calling people out for lack of content.

[Aloratom]

Honestly I think it's reasonable.

I'm overgamed not in terms of time but in terms of brainpower, and I haven't been putting enough effort into this game. My apologies.

I was talking about Day 2 content, but I get your point.

[Aloratom]

congrats scum

I followed along somewhat and it took me a while to get either profii or BEF, although tbf I kinda did stop reading the game after d2 started loooool

oh

that's unfortunate

I will answer the rest later.

I don't understand how this "outed" Y'shtola. It certainly didn't connect her to you. I know when I saw that in the 2121 post-game and Y'shtola in this game I didn't think anything about it.

[Aloratom]

It takes very little effort to determine who I am from those posts, since there was only one spectator of the game.

Importantly, it's very hard for me to determine if somebody does or is willing to do that work, and Y'shtola Rhul only works as a playstyle if my identity is hidden, so caution is the better option in this case to prevent future awkward interactions.

Fair enough.

[Aloratom]

I’m willing to contribute to this wagon, but I won’t let the hammer happen before Ame is back.
VOTE: NDMath
I don’t believe the reads are genuine

Also fml with the new lockdown stuff for Australia today my plans to finally get some may be postponed for another few months

Sorry for the recent inactivity y'all, its been a mix of hectic life brought on by lockdown procedures in victoria (now you can be fined $1600 for a public gathering of more than 2 people not of the same household!) and utter confusion. I'm willing to be the hammer vote for fuzzy if his claim doesn't change circumstances.

Good morning.

I think there's very low odds I don't support an NDMath lynch today, but I will still do my due diligence and look into the game further regardless.

ur scum aren't u

Are you reading NDMath Town?

[Aloratom]

Good morning.

I think there's very low odds I don't support an NDMath lynch today, but I will still do my due diligence and look into the game further regardless.

ur scum aren't u

Are you reading NDMath Town?

[Aloratom]

I’m willing to contribute to this wagon, but I won’t let the hammer happen before Ame is back.
VOTE: NDMath
I don’t believe the reads are genuine

Also fml with the new lockdown stuff for Australia today my plans to finally get some may be postponed for another few months

oof, I'm going to be doing people's work for them...

Alo/NDMath/Luca

are actually next ISOs.

Luca

, I'm having a lot of trouble fathoming the votepark wagon on

NDMath

.

For 50+ pages of content, a replace-in getting the lynch for a

"bad readslist"

that's no worse than most other readslist in this game - AND has expressed that they haven't provided a full train of thought... it's just doesn't feel lynch-worthy, or overtly scum-indicative.

With this stagnant voting near EoD1, I'm starting to think most of scum have casted their votes and have consistently bloc'ed onto one of the day's major wagons, potentially even the current ones

Fuzzy/NDMath

.

I believe town is on that wagon, but I don't think it's scum-pushed... If the problem people have with

NDMath

is

"their reasoning being faked"

then why don't they put effort in themselves to read them?

Regardless of

NDMath's

alignment, I don't think this wagon is getting anywhere other than one of the stalest ass lynches that we could pull right now.

I'm thoroughly unconvinced and I'm even more vexed that people aren't trying to convince me. It's sketchy as hell considering the gamestate.

Very good point, Taly. Specifically that last line. UNVOTE:
If you had some voting power; who would you have lynched today?

Sorry for the recent inactivity y'all, its been a mix of hectic life brought on by lockdown procedures in victoria (now you can be fined $1600 for a public gathering of more than 2 people not of the same household!) and utter confusion. I'm willing to be the hammer vote for fuzzy if his claim doesn't change circumstances.

Oh I thought he was at L-1. VOTE: Fuzzy
Now he is.

You unvoted NDMath Day 1 because it was a stale wagon. Then you ended up voting for Fuzzy, but you didn't give a reason for voting for him. And today you're voting NDMath out of the gate. Did you have a scum read on NDMath yesterday and just give up on it?

[Aloratom]

I'll probably L-1 soon. I wished to have more thoughts from Paragon/Eyestott/S_S but pulling teeth hasn't given me much read clarity this game.

This is the principle reason I haven't voted NDMath yet. I don't want to put them at L-1 without a little more input, but I'm not sure that it matters at this point.

[Aloratom]

Alo is my rationale for Blake-Churros interaction being T-T poor? Blake changing her view on the slot based on who she believes it to be feels town indicative on her part for a few reasons:
1) She gave no hint to who she thought it was, this means she resolved the read independent of anyone's POV but her own, and I don't think that's easily faked as scum.
2) Even if she were to fake it, she's good at understanding the gamestate, her not getting caught up with her Churros' scumread + his pushing on her and reevaluating him is oriented to bringing the game together.
3) Her raising her level of suspicion on me makes sense in a world where Churros is town. Her reads revolve around what she thinks scum is doing, and thus far the narrative she finds is that - if any scum exists in (Churros/Taly/Paragon) - it is only one. This is consistent to her solve.

Churros for other reasons:
1) He has reason to still come for this slot but has reevaluated his reads. Also, it would've made little sense for him to create a Fuzzy-Taly scumteam solve WoD1 when he knew Fuzzy would flip town.
2) Has pushed Blake but there doesn't feel as much fuel there at the moment, I think his lack of impact against his scumread more likely comes from town ina. Gsmestate where 2 wagons remain with little resistance but little change on them.
3) He's entertaining multiple solves, but he's not jumping on anyone. His questioning feels more investigative than combative. I don't receive an opportunistic vibe here.

I will say, I still have reservations with both of their posts this dayphase but the world where I see these two as scum (and you) is lower than every other slot in this game.

I even want to say Paragon is also in the same group, but I don't see enough of their posting to dig into the progression of their POV so its partially based off what my other townreads are thinking.

I'm going to take the long way round in answering your question. I'm sure that I've mentioned that I have difficulty thinking in associatives. Initially, it's important to note that I have difficulty reconciling a Blake/NDMath team. I was reading them scummy independently, but a lot of that carried over from Day 1. At this moment, based on Day 2 NDMath is more scummy than Blake. I think her points about NDMath are well taken, and his flip on his read on her does not track. And I think her 1843 and 1883 are solve-type posts that give me strong Town vibes. Her 1v1 with Churros doesn't mean a whole lot to me principally because they both seem to know each other from before and, quite frankly, they are on a different level than I am. That's one of the reasons I indicated at the start of the day that I was having trouble sorting Blake and Churros and would have more on them but never got back to it. I was having a difficult time following their dialogue and even on re-read I can't quite get my head around it. You may be right about her fingering you in that Churros/Taly/Paragon grouping, but, again, I need someone to draw me a flowchart when it comes to analysis of this type. I'm not the type of person to tell you I agree with something when it's because I don't understand it. Maybe you could dumb it down for me a bit.

I had been reading Churros null Day 1, and that stayed pretty constant. Like you, I don't understand why a scum!Churros would push a Taly/Fuzzy team, but I didn't really catch the supposed partner slip thing to begin with and wasn't too worried about it anyway since I had you as a Town read. I'm not sure why he's still voting Blake right now. I get the impression from 1848 that it has something to do with the lack of posting that's occurring. There just doesn't seem to be a lot happening. I tried yesterday, weakly, to get him to join me on NDMath, but there wasn't any interest, but I think there may be some today if I read 1849 correctly. That doesn't sound opportunistic to me.

So in the end, I don't see anything that prevents a TvT between Blake and Churros. They both scum read NDMath to a certain extent, and it seems as if they were both scum, their 1v1 would be time consuming to script. In addition, they both appear experienced enough that they're going to be aware of potential manipulation. I also don't get the sense from their interactions on Day 2 that either has been pocketed. To the contrary, I think that it's very likely that it wouldn't take much for either to scum read the other. 1831 and 1842 kind of tell me it's a precarious situation (even with the declarative nature of 1842), but it very well could be TvT.

[Aloratom]

Intent. 24 hours.

[Aloratom]

I don't know that anything has changed, but it's not like we don't have time to talk about it.

[Aloratom]

Taly's question about eyestott's response led me to skim eyestott's ISO. I could see a possibility there, especially with him disappearing. That was a weird response to Taly's vote. I generally don't like to do annotated ISOs, but I'm going to pull a few posts that stand out to me.

[Aloratom]

Before I move further with my reads, I have an important question. For this question, please assume that I am town.
What is the best way for me to get better at this game in terms of contributing to the town? Right now my strategy would be to find a strong townread who knows what they're doing, and follow their leadership. This results from my lack of experience/confidence in my own scumhunting ability. So, the best way for me to move away from this strategy would be to get better at scumhunting. I know that analysing meta, interactions, tone and voting are all good things to do, but that's too many options for me to choose from right now. I feel like I need to get better at one of those things first, then I can add in the others later.

I'm going to treat this as a genuine question and not view it through a paranoid lens. This could very easily be blown off as a misdirecting question, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. I think you probably know the answer -- you just need to play games, ie. learn by doing. That question you asked in the previous post about my Town read on you Day 1 and now I'm looking at you more critically is a good one and a good place to start. Looking for what appear to be contradictions like that and asking about them is a good place to start. In my limited experience, that's often how scum are caught. VCA, associative, meta analyses are all good too, I think, but they're time and labor intensive and more difficult to get your head around. And then there's also the WWSD level that Blake mentioned earlier, which comes with experience I think. If you want to be an asset to Town this game, ask yourself why people are asking others, including yourself, questions, not on a superficial level, but what is motivating them to ask those questions, and do the responses to those questions make sense -- why did the person respond in that manner.

[Aloratom]

@Aloratom: Last time you posted a readslist, at 1579, I was your highest townread, whereas, as of your most recent post, you're considering the idea of scumstott. Was my response to Taly's vote all that weird? Cause I don't see it.

I'll get to this sometime today, but I need to get some work done. It entails me pulling some quotes from your ISO, and I don't have the time to do that right now.

[Aloratom]

Spoiler: Aloratom

This read is based on Aloratom consistently producing quality content that doesn't seem forced in any way, and often says things that I'm already thinking, which is a very good sign (from my perspective). Here are some examples.

Mmm, that may change. Haven't felt anything overtly scum-indicative.

S_S

pings me more for lack of content,

NDMath

because of his lackluster D2 posting, and

Alo

also had net 0 to discuss when there was plenty of content to.

Part of my quick townreading of

Blake/Churros

is that I don't see why scum would still be in the limelight if town has been pretty much cannibalized each other this game so far.

And there's just so much opportunity for

Blake/Churros

to scumread, misrep, or dismiss the other people's POV but they're working cohesively last page.

So yeah, my reads are becoming PoE based, and it makes sense given the gamestate read where

Blake/Churros

are town since we're the most vocal.

We're not even 24 hours into Day 2, Taly. It's a little early to be calling people out for lack of content.

This was something I was already thinking and doesn't strike me as something scum would say.

Why did you question my Fire read when you also had Ame as high town?

Any response to Taly’s 1600?

Bah. I had Firebringer subbing in for Wiisp.

And I'm wading through Taly's ISOs.

Again, this is something I often do as town, but would be impossible to do as scum if on a team with wisp/S_S OR Ame/Firebringer.

@Aloratom:

Last time you posted a readslist, at 1579, I was your highest townread, whereas, as of your most recent post, you're considering the idea of scumstott. Was my response to Taly's vote all that weird? Cause I don't see it.
And sorry, totally missed the questions you posed me earlier.

I’m willing to contribute to this wagon, but I won’t let the hammer happen before Ame is back.
VOTE: NDMath
I don’t believe the reads are genuine

Also fml with the new lockdown stuff for Australia today my plans to finally get some may be postponed for another few months

oof, I'm going to be doing people's work for them...

Alo/NDMath/Luca

are actually next ISOs.

Luca

, I'm having a lot of trouble fathoming the votepark wagon on

NDMath

.

For 50+ pages of content, a replace-in getting the lynch for a

"bad readslist"

that's no worse than most other readslist in this game - AND has expressed that they haven't provided a full train of thought... it's just doesn't feel lynch-worthy, or overtly scum-indicative.

With this stagnant voting near EoD1, I'm starting to think most of scum have casted their votes and have consistently bloc'ed onto one of the day's major wagons, potentially even the current ones

Fuzzy/NDMath

.

I believe town is on that wagon, but I don't think it's scum-pushed... If the problem people have with

NDMath

is

"their reasoning being faked"

then why don't they put effort in themselves to read them?

Regardless of

NDMath's

alignment, I don't think this wagon is getting anywhere other than one of the stalest ass lynches that we could pull right now.

I'm thoroughly unconvinced and I'm even more vexed that people aren't trying to convince me. It's sketchy as hell considering the gamestate.

Very good point, Taly. Specifically that last line. UNVOTE:
If you had some voting power; who would you have lynched today?

Sorry for the recent inactivity y'all, its been a mix of hectic life brought on by lockdown procedures in victoria (now you can be fined $1600 for a public gathering of more than 2 people not of the same household!) and utter confusion. I'm willing to be the hammer vote for fuzzy if his claim doesn't change circumstances.

Oh I thought he was at L-1. VOTE: Fuzzy
Now he is.

You unvoted NDMath Day 1 because it was a stale wagon. Then you ended up voting for Fuzzy, but you didn't give a reason for voting for him. And today you're voting NDMath out of the gate. Did you have a scum read on NDMath yesterday and just give up on it?

I gave up on it because I was also scumreading Fuzzy and thought he was the more viable lynch. But now that Luca is confirmed town by his death, it further solidifies my scumread on NDMath. My unvote on NDMath D1 was because Taly said "I'm thoroughly unconvinced and I'm even more vexed that people aren't trying to convince me. It's sketchy as hell considering the gamestate."
That line caused me to suspect Luca and his push on ND. Now that I know I can trust what Luca said, I feel much better about lynching NDMath, even with his VT claim.

BTW: This is a pretty superficial take on me. I feel like you're setting me up.

[Aloratom]

What is he setting you up for, Alotatom? He expressed a strong townread on you there!

What is he setting you up for, Alotatom? He expressed a strong townread on you there!

I am also wondering this.

As eyestott is getting critiqued more carefully, he may be buddying me in an effort, if he is scum, to rub partner equity onto me, setting me up for a mislynch instead of a scum lynch on him. "Hey, I think eyestott's scummy, and he's Town reading Aloratom hard. I bet that means Aloratom's his partner. We better flip Aloratom before we flip eyestott."

That's paranoid me looking at this.

[Aloratom]

From the past few hours, I’m leaning towards scum moresp for Paragon, pops, and Fuzzy




What’s that? They’re the three people with votes on them?
Well, one of them is probably correct, eh?
I have Aspergers, so I have a bit of trouble understanding when people are joking or being sincere. I think maybe that’s how I got into this mess with pops. I’m still a bit salty about it, though I’ll be fine tomorrow.
I don’t see either of the recent replacements being scum. Mostly based on how close I was to requesting a replacement too, and I don’t think I would’ve come anywhere near as close to if I were scum.

eyestott, mind explaining the reasoning for your scumread on me? Plus, do you believe one of the the three wagons is probably correct on the basis you think town must be good enough to land a wagon on scum, or some other reasoning?

6

1: I’m still Not sure that your initial claim wasn’t a legitimate case of scum trying to fakeclaim a role only to find out that the role doesn’t exist
There are probably other reasons that I can’t recall right now, but I’ve stayed up past my normal bedtime for this tonight.
And yes, that’s correct.

Hahaha I started at 1:
And then stopped there lol

Has three scum reads and a partial explanation for one. Never explains the others.

Ooooohhhhh Taly I understand now! I didn’t realise that whole section of #479 was directed at me. Up until now I thought it was just the first sentence or two after that quote. I’m going to respond to that post more in depth today.

"Going to respond" but never does.

Current readslist, which will be updated very soon once I've gone through more of the recent game.
eyestott

Luca Blight
Aloratom


NDMath
Taly
Ame
Paragon

Yshtola Rhul
TheFuzzylogic99
popsofctown


No read: Taco and Wiisp (need to ISO them)

NDMath looks Town lean/high null

Spoiler: Page 33, 34, 35 and 36

UNVOTE:

I need a reset.
I'm starting my reads from scratch again.
@

everyone

: Let's say that you lose all your memories of what has thus far transpired in this game and all your reads. However, you get to keep one of your reads that you currently have (be it a town read or a scum read), and the reasoning behind it.
Which one would you choose to keep your memory of?

I think I would keep my memory of the small sequence of Luca posts that seemed really town indicative to me.  It's not impossible for me to decide the slot is scummy later but in Autumnal Luca stopped towntelling when the posture of the gamestate stopped lending itself easily to opportunities to do so, I would want to keep those on the balance sheet.
I'd discard townreads on eyestott and Paragon that are likely to regenerate themselves.
I'm not confident enough in any of my scumreads for them to be candidates for keeping.

I mostly like this answer and the reasoning behind it.

Ok yea Eyes is town. I fully agree with pops and Para on that one. Sorry Eyes I wanted to give you the being-scum-read experience but you're just too pure.

DAMNIT

My play is so drastically different from my scum game, I think you would pick up on it.

2 scum really changes things.

Pops/Para : Luca/Para : Luca/Taly

One of these is the scum team.

Why just two scum? I realize there was a conversation about it earlier, but you sound pretty confident.

And are you basing the teams on associatives, scummy behavior or vote analysis?

Just the fact that I can't form a 3 person team. This is a post I was working on before but canceled once I realized none of the pairings worked:

I'm getting pretty close to the solve here. It's within pops, Luca, Para, Taly, Fuzzy.

Fuzzy =/= Taly 112, 153 (also town indicative for Taly)
Hmm I thought before that pop v taly looked bussy but reviewing 153 and 180 I don't think so. pops =/= Taly
Para =/ Taly bottom of 521.

So Taly is town

.

pops, Luca, Para, Fuzzy.

Luca =/= Fuzzy 644
Fuzzy =/= Para 280, 388, 718, 715.

So Fuzzy is town.

pops, Luca, Para

Verifying...

Error pops =/ Luca based on the discussion regarding Rabid, especially 624 and 657

Solve broken. Back to the drawing board.

You started Purgatory with an extremely strong townread.  I don't think those are categorically different.  You had better reasoning in Purgatory though, which somehow means you should have a redder alignment in this game than that one.  It's baffling.

It means the opposite. There I was concerned with being town read. Here I am not. Taly recognized this. And it feels like you're deliberately avoiding that conclusion.

I disagree with the conclusion, but the reasoning here and the attempt to solve feels quite townie to me.

I would like popsofctown to be town for once, so I have decided that she is infact town. I would like her to know that I am

not

a framer.

Y'shtola Rhul, who is this sin-bringer you speak of that has entered our ranks? Is it popsofctown or someone else?

A Sign of a Red Colour, sporting the word "Stop"

Sin Eaters are the embodiment of the primordial light that threatens our world. I've lost the scent of that which I believe is our likeliest chance of hitting one such creature, but rest assured I will do my utmost to resume the chase by finding another.

geee, im definitely caught scum now, how the fuck will i ever recover after 725

hopes and dreams of ever reaching that don clerone scummy have been dashed, time to go back to the newbie queue and self-vote every game to repent my transgressions

Taly, how often do you get angry as a Warrior of Light and as a Sin Eater?

There's impressively little else I wish to comment on.

I will consolidate my thoughts and decide on a course of action anon.

VOTE: Taco

Speak your piece, silent one.

I don't like the content Yshtola is bringing out. The flavour behind the posting is making it very hard to follow, and I feel like she is putting much more effort into the flavour and hiding behind it than actually contributing to the game.

New Reads list:
eyestott

Luca Blight
Aloratom
Ame

NDMath
Taly
Paragon
Wiisp

popsofctown
TheFuzzylogic99
Yshtola Rhul

No read: Taco

"I like this answer and reasoning."
"I don't like the way Y'shtola is posting."
NDMath is a Town lean/high null.

How would you describe your gameplay?

I would describe myself as a scholar to the art of mafia, here to learn what I can in order to defeat the threat of the Sin Eaters.

I am not the hero of the story, I am merely an assistant to the Warriors of Light that maintain the front lines in our fight. That is my purpose.

UGH can someone tell me why I find this scummy?
VOTE: Yshtola Rhul

Y'shtola vote with no explanation.

I’m willing to contribute to this wagon, but I won’t let the hammer happen before Ame is back.
VOTE: NDMath
I don’t believe the reads are genuine

Also fml with the new lockdown stuff for Australia today my plans to finally get some may be postponed for another few months

NDMath vote after never having him in his scum pool. Prior to this NDMath was the first player listed in his middle pack.

Oh I thought he was at L-1. VOTE: Fuzzy
Now he is.

Finally votes a scum read at EOD.

Luca, do you think a NDMath Lynch is possible at this point? You expressed intent to lynch, are you intending to follow through?

Fuzzy lynch is inevitable at this point, but he asks Luca if it's too late to lynch NDMath. Why?

Fuck. Two Nightkills? I can't remember being in a double elimination night before.
Under normal rules, there cant be two anti-town NKs without significant shenanigans, right? Like, is a Vigilante the only explanation?

Is this genuine outrage?

The extra kill has to be from a form of vigilante. (1-shot, full, JOAT, etc.)

In fact

VOTE: Blake

I didn't forget you taly I just think this is more interesting to pursue right now.

'iInteresting' is a good word choice here.
VOTE: Blake

She was pretty much the only person who thought fuzzy's lynch would probably hit scum (maybe barring pops who fuzzy was tunnelling.) And I find it scummy how the flip against her reads almost makes her more confident in her reads.
I agree with Churros that her answers about Rhul don't quite hold up either.

VOTE: NDMath

This post is not town.

Can you expand on your reasoning? I’m just trying to sort out this exchange

This is a good post. Looks like he's trying to figure it out.

VOTE: NDMath
Should’ve done this earlier. This ones for you, Luca.

Again, why NDMath? Still no explanation.

Will you be interested if I claim?

What?

Reads:

Town
Myself
Aloratom
Taly

Null
Firebringer
Churros
Paragon

Scum
Something Smart
Blake
NDMath

NDMath is now scum for some reason.

Overall, eyestott has been playing a superficial game. He asks questions, but doesn't follow up. He gives reads, but does not give reasons for the reads. He's been able to say things like "I like what you said there" and no one has asked him "Why did you like that?" His vote on NDMath Day 1 and Day 2 does not make sense given that there's no progression, and then when the lynch of one of his consistent scum reads is about to occur (Fuzzy), he expresses doubts. He's been an active lurker for the most part, and I think he's been getting away with a lot. Town just isn't calling him on his superficial posting. His Day 2 reaction to Taly's vote is odd. In fact, his entire Day 2 has been strange. It's not Town behavior. I had him at high Town middle of Day 1, but that's before I realized that he's been skimming through this game. I'm not ready to say he's lock scum yet, but he's fallen from my lock Town reads.

[Aloratom]

@Aloratom: Last time you posted a readslist, at 1579, I was your highest townread, whereas, as of your most recent post, you're considering the idea of scumstott. Was my response to Taly's vote all that weird? Cause I don't see it.

I'll get to this sometime today, but I need to get some work done. It entails me pulling some quotes from your ISO, and I don't have the time to do that right now.

That was in response to this, eyestott's 2004. Just took me an extra day to get to it.

[Aloratom]

VOTE: NDMath

I'm still think this is the best lynch today. A red flip here clears eyestott I believe. I can't see a NDMath/eyestott team.

This is L-1.

[Aloratom]

Alora, I agree my posting today has been quite different tonally, and I understand your change of perspective. I'm not gonna lie, I'm finding it quite hard to stay engaged in this game right now. I think the constant replacements really screwed with my head, especially the fact that I essentially caused Rabid to replace by satirically claiming a role restriction, THEN caused wiisp to replace out by calling him out. It's just not the kind of thing I want to deal with in a game where my primary motivation is to have fun.
This is just starting to feel less like a game and more like a uni assignment.
But that doesn't excuse the changes in my reads. However, I could call you out for the untelegraphed changes in your own read on me. But here's the thing:
It isn't alignment indicative.

It's difficult when you become emotionally invested in something when intellectually you know better. I think that's what happens to the first player in the NDMath slot before they repped out. And all that stuff you cited, I think it's unfair of you to put that on yourself. You just can't do that.

[Aloratom]

Hello.

Is there anything I need to address immediately?

I don't think so. I think we just need a hammer on NDMath.

[Aloratom]

Sorry I'm late. I thought this Day start was later today. I need to catch up.

[Aloratom]

Battle Mage, please unvote.

[Aloratom]

Never mind. I see that you did.

[Aloratom]

Aloratom, what do you think about Churros, Taly and Polygon?

Okay, this is from skimming today's posts and isn't very well thought out.

Taly I've had a pretty consistent Town read on, although Day 2 I questioned his outrage at Day start, and he's done the same today to a certain extent. I'm not sure what to make of that. I don't think that a bulletproof claim necessarily clears him, but I lean toward it being so. I guess I need to read more about your scum read of him because no one, I believe, has had a strong scum read on him yet. I don't know whether your take has legs.

Churros repped in for an inactive slot, and I have had difficulty reading him since he started. His Day 2 was interesting. I think that he and Blake had similar reads (I need to check that), except that for some reason he was voting her. All in all, in retrospect I think Blake's reads have been pretty strong, but she was wrong on NDMath, as was I. But she Town read Churros and they were both scum reading Something_Smart Day 2, who Churros ended up voting. Right now Churros has more Town equity to me than he did before.

Paragon I've had a hard time getting over his initial tricks, and that still carries some weight. But since then, I get more of a genuine tone from him. There was something that I read today that I need to go back and look at that makes me question him. He was even more convinced of NDMath!scum than I, I believe. In fact, I think both he and I ended Day 1 with votes on him. I've actually got a Town lean on him.

The problem with this is I'm getting too many Town leans right now and not enough players. Today's posts from what I can see have been tremendously scattered. I can't follow everyone's lines of thought. You have a significant number of posts that differ in tone and structure from your predecessors, and that needs to be examined. In addition, there are a lot of accusations flying back and forth. It's hard to keep up.

[Aloratom]

I'm VT by the way.

[Aloratom]

Everyone was busy last night! It will take me some time to review this, and I've got a lot of work to do today.

[Aloratom]

I've read a lot of what was posted last night, and this is what immediately popped into my head.

Blake 1-shot Vigilante
Taly 2-shot Bulletproof
Churros 1-shot Novice Gunsmith
Eyestott Neapolitan

It seems to me that one of the PR claims cannot be true. A Taly/Eyestott team could have cooked up the Taly clear. This would kind of make sense. Taly's frustration is palpable, but I really can't tell if it's sincere or not at this point. It's been happening all game. And Eyestott has been looking worse to me over time. But that would leave just two Power Roles, the Vig and the Gunsmith. I don't know that that makes sense with a third scum.

Churros could have fabricated the Gunsmith claim. This also makes sense. If Blake had survived and Eyestott had been Night Killed, the roles would have been switched, and I could see a Churros/Blake team cooking up a Gunsmith/Vigilante PR team to get Blake a clear in the same manner Taly got a clear from Eyestott. But I question that. Why would a scum!Churros who was going after Something_Smart yesterday clear SS when he could have directed a mislynch on SS today? Also, the fact is that Blake actually was a Vigilante. Pairing a Gunsmith with a Vigilante is more synchronous than pairing a Neapolitan with a Bulletproof. And again, that leaves just two Power Roles, which I'm not sure about with three scum.

So with the Power Roles, I have to conclude that either the Bulletproof or the Neapolitan does not exist or that they both don't exist. I'm not sure which option is more likely.

That's where I'm starting -- with the Power Roles.

With the Vanilla Claims, I hate thinking in associatives, but it seems the most appropriate thing to do right now. I can't reconcile a Battle Mage and Taly or Battle Mage and Paragon being part of the same team. I can see Battle Mage and Something_Smart or Battle Mage and Churros or Battle Mage and Eyestott. If there are 3 mafia, that would mean Battle Mage/Something_Smart/Churros or Battle Mage/Something_Smart/Eyestott. Something_Smart and Churros can't be on the same team from what I've seen and given the Power Role claims, the only possible 3-man team would be Battle Mage/Something_Smart/Eyestott. Possible 2-man teams would be Battle Mage/Churros and Battle Mage/Eyestott.

I can't reconcile a Paragon and Battle Mage or Paragon and Taly being part of the same team. I can see Paragon and Something_Smart or Paragon and Churros or Paragon and Eyestott. If there are 3 mafia, that would mean Paragon/Something_Smart/Churros or Paragon/Something_Smart/Eyestott. Either of these teams is possible. Possible 2-man teams would be Paragon/Something_Smart, Paragon/Churros and Paragon/Eyestott.

I think the most sensible lynch for today is Battle Mage.

VOTE: Battle Mage

[Aloratom]

Maybe question PR claims after we lynch someone 4+ people agree is probable scum?

I'm not questioning them, I'm saying this lynch is fine because there's no way all 3 PR claims are fake given everyone else has claimed VT.

Something_Smart, do you believe this setup is balanced?

• 1 mafia rolecop
  
• 1 mafia goon
  
• 1 town 1-shot vig
  
• 1 town 2-shot BP
  
• 1 town novice 1-shot gunsmith
  
• 7 VT

Plus 1 town neapolitan. I'm not sure how he left that out. I'm also not sure how he assumes a mafia rolecop.

Anyway, one of these PRs has to be fake. That's just too much power for Town.

[Aloratom]

Maybe question PR claims after we lynch someone 4+ people agree is probable scum?

I'm not questioning them, I'm saying this lynch is fine because there's no way all 3 PR claims are fake given everyone else has claimed VT.

Something_Smart, do you believe this setup is balanced?

• 1 mafia rolecop
  
• 1 mafia goon
  
• 1 town 1-shot vig
  
• 1 town 2-shot BP
  
• 1 town novice 1-shot gunsmith
  
• 7 VT

Plus 1 town neapolitan. I'm not sure how he left that out. I'm also not sure how he assumes a mafia rolecop.

Anyway, one of these PRs has to be fake. That's just too much power for Town.

excuse you, do you think

eye

used his check N3 effectively?

instead of saying

"these PRs all are town but that's too much power"

then make a declarative statement or assessment that provides insight about the claims.

That's what I'm saying. I don't know why you use it on a VT claim. He would have been better suited to confirm Churros.

[Aloratom]

In my eyes it has to be the Bulletproof or the Neapolitan that doesn't exist.

I'm really coming around to [Eyestott/Churros], [Paragon/Eyestott], [Paragon/Churros].

[Aloratom]

[Taly/Eyestott] can't work because taking out both Town PRs doesn't make sense.

[Aloratom]

Alora, Neapolitan doesn’t work how you think it works


Scum Churros will return a result of not a vannjjla townie
PR Churros will return a result of not a vanilla townie
Why would I target him?

Ahh... I see. I had to go hunt it down in the wiki. That changes things somewhat.

[Aloratom]

Alora, Neapolitan doesn’t work how you think it works


Scum Churros will return a result of not a vannjjla townie
PR Churros will return a result of not a vanilla townie
Why would I target him?

I understand you now I think. Why did you pick Paragon and not Something_Smart or me?

[Aloratom]

The only correct choices to target would’ve been either paragon or yourself.
Do you think I should’ve targeted you?
If so, why not ask me to target you during D3?

I actually thought you'd be the NK.

[Aloratom]

Ok, I just realized I think it's very probably scum!Alo right now.

I think eyesott/Alo are trying to fake spew each other by confusing a role that was already explained in the past pages. Even from a 3rd pov, It doesn't matter who was scum between me/Taly, we would have explained or talked about it in scum PT given that we were just discussing the role now.

Alo literally would need to not have read the game or if scum to have a partner out of [Taly, Churros] for him to confuse it again like that.

It makes a lot of sense that eyesott would see me confuse it and would say to alo to confuse it as well, and they would interact as if the claim wasn't planned what would look like...fairly anti-spew...exactly what they would be gunning for?

Idk I'm not really feeling Taly as eyesott partner anymore

To be honest, I haven't caught up, which is my fault. I thought it was pretty important to get a foothold before something bad happened.

[Aloratom]

If you're right, eyestott, and I think you may be, then the Bulletproof doesn't really make sense.

[Aloratom]

The only correct choices to target would’ve been either paragon or yourself.
Do you think I should’ve targeted you?
If so, why not ask me to target you during D3?

You could have picked Something_Smart also, right?

[Aloratom]

Is churros actually defending Taly's slot now after pushing him earlier?

[Aloratom]

I see. That makes sense.

[Aloratom]

I was pretty busy and couldn't devote much attention to the game.

[Aloratom]

From trying to catch up it look like Taly is thinking you and Paragon, is that right?

[Aloratom]

Think about why he checked you, Paragon:
Even in the world that you are town, he gets someone who he could pocket by having a soft "clear" on them, and an additional townie to push a lynch for.

Eye's play - despite how you slice it - is suboptimal at best, and scum at worst. Makes perfect sense why Scum Neapolitan is a valued scum investigative: It will out the Gun-Smith, 2shot-BP, and 1shot-Vig.

Scum Neapolitan? Is that a role?

[Aloratom]

I really am sorry for the flaming that you received from BM yesterday, even if you are scum

Thank you, but I have a feeling that that's Battle Mage's personality (at least online personality), and I've been dealing with that kind of thing for a long time. The key is not to take anything that's said online to heart unless you want it to.

[Aloratom]

It can be

I guess that makes sense. (the role, not the accusation by Taly necessarily)

[Aloratom]

But weren't you the one who volunteered that you were an investigative before anyone had mentioned claiming?

[Aloratom]

I really am sorry for the flaming that you received from BM yesterday, even if you are scum

Thank you, but I have a feeling that that's Battle Mage's personality (at least online personality), and I've been dealing with that kind of thing for a long time. The key is not to take anything that's said online to heart unless you want it to.

That was actually directed at Taly!

Oh. lol. See. I haven't caught up.

[Aloratom]

I feel confident in a Churros lynch.
What do you think, Alo?
And Paragon also

What about your Paragon clear?

[Aloratom]

I feel confident in a Churros lynch.
What do you think, Alo?
And Paragon also

What about your Paragon clear?

I don't understand why you would be okay with a Paragon lynch.

[Aloratom]

I know you wanna do it alo

don't need to do this dance and song you guys have been doing to pile votes on me

What happened to Taly/Alo?

I think it's up to Paragon to decide between [Churros, Eyesott] and [Taly, Alo] here.

[Aloratom]

Me voting him changed all that

I don't know how anyone can say we're partners.

[Aloratom]

If anyone's going to be around in the next hour or so I should be around to talk.

[Aloratom]

Hey. What time is it where you live?

[Aloratom]

I have a feeling you're a long way from me. I'm going to bed now, but maybe we can fix an approximate time tomorrow. Others can join in if they want.

[Aloratom]

Now that I understand how neapolitan works I think you're probably right.

[Aloratom]

Is he just not understanding do you think?

[Aloratom]

You know, Churros. Our friendship has inspired me
Maybe I’ll upload A cover of True Colours and dedicate it to you

I see your

true colours

shining through
I see your

true colours

, and that’s why I loooove you
So don’t be afraid to let them show your

true colours
True colours

are beautiful like a Churrroo

This cracks me up.

[Aloratom]

Eyestott went Cyndi Lauper on Churros.

[Aloratom]

Okay, I've got to go to bed for real. It's only 10:30 PM, but it's been an exhausting week. I'll be on tomorrow.

[Aloratom]

Regarding 2691:

The second setup you've proposed still seems townsided to me, and Something_Smart would agree, even if we upgraded the mafia neapolitan to a rolecop:

Maybe question PR claims after we lynch someone 4+ people agree is probable scum?

I'm not questioning them, I'm saying this lynch is fine because there's no way all 3 PR claims are fake given everyone else has claimed VT.

Something_Smart, do you believe this setup is balanced?

• 1 mafia rolecop
  
• 1 mafia goon
  
• 1 town 1-shot vig
  
• 1 town 2-shot BP
  
• 1 town novice 1-shot gunsmith
  
• 7 VT

That seems pretty townsided to me.

But I do agree with your assessment of the first, all in all. I'm still struggling to imagine that world.

That setup in 2432. Is that if eyestott is scum, you're assuming he's a rolecop?

[Aloratom]

As near as I can tell you're pretty sure it's Taly/Churros, right?

[Aloratom]

And good morning btw. From here anyway. I guess there it's good evening.

[Aloratom]

That's true. I would be the logical choice. The only choice, really.

[Aloratom]

That's true. I would be the logical choice. The only choice, really.

[Aloratom]

I wish we hadn't missed Paragon.

[Aloratom]

I'd really like to get his thoughts on the setup he proposed in 2432.

[Aloratom]

That's one of the reasons I need Paragon.

[Aloratom]

One the one hand, I wonder "why is eyestott still alive?" but on the other it looks more and more like Taly and Churros.

[Aloratom]

In order to lynch today, I'd have to completely buy into your claim. I'm about 70% there.

[Aloratom]

By messed up, I mean either targeting that nights kill, or getting a negative result

Yes, that make sense.

Another thing is, Taly is planning ISOs on you and me, I guess. I'd kind of like to see those.

pedit: lmao -- No need to go that far! If you're going to do Cyndi, you go with All Through The Night. That's her best.

[Aloratom]

In order to lynch today, I'd have to completely buy into your claim. I'm about 70% there.

How come?

In my eyes it has to be the Bulletproof or the Neapolitan that doesn't exist.

I'm really coming around to [Eyestott/Churros], [Paragon/Eyestott], [Paragon/Churros].

Here, Taly evaded all of your suspicion. What's your independent read on Taly currently?

That's the setup balance question I had for you. Does it make sense to you that Town would have four power roles?

It's getting more and more difficult to read independently. I don't know whether Taly is doing an AtE or is being sincere. He keeps bringing up his meta, and I suppose that's a valid thing to do. I'm in games where that's all that people talk about, but it's so hard to follow. Have you played with him before?

[Aloratom]

I guess the biggest issue I take with Taly is that I've been engaging with him the entire game, trying to read through his posts (I don't like calling them walls) and responding to them, and now I'm being read as mafia.

[Aloratom]

I don't really understand that progression.

[Aloratom]

I said biggest issue. I think that's one of the issues. The two of you have bickered the entire game, but I'm not sure that I understand what your beef is now.

[Aloratom]

In order to lynch today, I'd have to completely buy into your claim. I'm about 70% there.

How come?

In my eyes it has to be the Bulletproof or the Neapolitan that doesn't exist.

I'm really coming around to [Eyestott/Churros], [Paragon/Eyestott], [Paragon/Churros].

Here, Taly evaded all of your suspicion. What's your independent read on Taly currently?

Trying to be inclusive, [Taly/Paragon], [Taly/Churros] or [Taly/Eyestott].

I'm no expert on setup, but it still seems to me that either the Bulletproof or the Neapolitan doesn't work. I guess it could be both, but that leaves a 1-shot vig and a 1-shot gunsmith novice. Does that jibe?

[Aloratom]

Oh yeah. Don't go voting for Churros, Aloratom. Taly can hammer if he's scum with eyestott. Put in on hold until I'm back to look at this properly.

I can't ever see it being Churros + Aloratom so it's fine if you vote eyestott, Taly.

I don't anything's going to happen.

[Aloratom]

What's going on in here?

[Aloratom]

I can't talk long. I've got a ton of paperwork.

[Aloratom]

Churros is voting me?

[Aloratom]

Taly is voting me?

[Aloratom]

Blech.

[Aloratom]

Aloratom isn't voting me?

What?

[Aloratom]

Alright. I shouldn't have even opened this up because I can't even go back and read through what you guys have been talking about, let alone answer any questions right now. I saw some activity and was curious. But it's going to have to wait until this evening when I get some time.

[Aloratom]

Aloratom isn't voting me?

What?

are you going to do anything?

or are you going to let others resolve a decision or read just as you have for the game thus far?

I don't have much control right now. It's the middle of the day, and I have too much work.

[Aloratom]

Hope it all works out, eyestott.

[Aloratom]

I'm at L-1. I don't know why, and, sorry but I don't really care right now. I'm tired of this game. I'm pushing reading what happened today off until tomorrow. Taly, Paragon, please don't hammer me yet.

[Aloratom]

I'm at L-1. I don't know why, and, sorry but I don't really care right now. I'm tired of this game. I'm pushing reading what happened today off until tomorrow. Taly, Paragon, please don't hammer me yet.

It’s not Churros and I that are voting you, it’s Churros and Taly. From your perspective, they must be both be scum, right? Otherwise if either Para or I were scum, we’d have hammered you. Have you already realised this?

I see the votes correctly now.

[Aloratom]

Actually it would be a bit more suspicious than what I had as Paragon, but still less bad than Alo because Eye ignored Taly and handheld Alo in an engagement "explaining" the role.

Either way, from my PoV Taly is confirmed since you didn't hammer either.

Both you and Taly spinning this narrative about Eyestott spoon feeding me. Seriously, if we were scum together don't you think we would have taken care of this in the private thread?

[Aloratom]

Paragon, Alo, take a look at page 49 between Churros and Taly. Do you see what I see?

I looked at this. I guess I need you to explain please.

[Aloratom]

LOL

I thought novice meant "fails if you target mafia" eek

Why/when did you decide to look this up?

I'm not sure of the context or significance of this. Both parts.

[Aloratom]

LOL

I thought novice meant "fails if you target mafia" eek

Why/when did you decide to look this up?

I'm not sure of the context or significance of this. Both parts.

Never mind. I got it.

[Aloratom]

Both parts.

[Aloratom]

lmfao, so in lylo, you take the perspective of the FIRST of 5 people that holds your hand to a conclusion, and now you say "this is the correct viewpoint" when it's not suspecting you as scum?

I didn't agree with his conclusion. I just agreed that I was looking at the votes wrong. I think that's obvious. Last night I said "Taly, Paragon, please don't hammer me yet." I was thinking that Eyestott and Churros were voting me, not you and Churros.

[Aloratom]

I feel like a witness to an MVA.

[Aloratom]

Looking at it, I think your head is on straight, eyestott. Churros it is.

VOTE: Churros

[Aloratom]

I'll be popping in and out today, but I've got a lot of appointments so don't expect much for the next 8-10 hours. Despite the virus, people still want to talk to me.

[Aloratom]

I swear/promise this isn't a buddying attempt, but are you a Mario fan? I used to bike over to a friend's house to play on his NES and then another friend got a SNES I think and had Mario 1, 2 and 3. I was obsessed. I finally bought them for the Wii when that was the thing. The only other one I've played was a 3D Mario game on the DS I had. I don't remember what that was called. I'm going to have to see if they're on Steam to add to my 4-game collection. Funny the things from childhood that you can still enjoy decades later.

With the eyestott/NDMath thing. I can't remember what triggered me to look into eyestott more carefully on Day 2 I think that was. I will look. It seems that I had a SR on NDMath both Day 1 and Day 2; then Luca and Pops were killed. I was trying to figure out the motivation for killing those two in particular. That day was dragging on, and I don't know if someone mentioned something about Eystott or if I noticed an odd post of his or what, but nothing was happening so I decided to take a closer look. And it seemed odd to me, if I remember correctly, that he was TR me so hard, and I had a good TR on him, especially when 70-80% of the time my Day 1s, unless I can peg scum right off the bat and let people know it, I get scum read by more than half of the roster. Anyway, this much I'm pretty sure of, when I placed that vote it was pretty apparent that a wagon on anyone else wasn't going to go anywhere, NDMath seemed to be the consensus lynch, and I had a long-time scum read on him anyway, so I voted there. And I think I was beginning to trust Blake more at that point too, and she wanted the NDMath lynch more than anyone.

[Aloratom]

have you ever seen Sense8? That’s my favourite Netflix show.

It was this post that tweaked me. It seemed to appear out of nowhere, like he was just posting a random thought on Twitter. It got me to wondering, "What's he on about?" It wasn't until a couple of days later that I figured out that he was actually responding to a Firebringer post.

[Aloratom]

Hi Oka! Thanks for joining.

I guess it's come to this.

VOTE: OkaPoka

[Aloratom]

I'm home and read the last few pages. Little irritated that I left my play laptop at the office and am on my wife's. Anyway, I'm not sure I follow the logic of the last page, but I'll re-read that. I was looking at Oka's proposed setup -- the one with 7 VTs and the multi-tasking backup JOAT. That seems a little scum-heavy, doesn't it? (I had to look up commuter) So you have a mafia member with all those abilities who also can't be detected? Also, and this is me more asking than critiquing, I guess, if there was an active role like that wouldn't there need to be a Town PR to counter it -- to have the potential to detect it?

[Aloratom]

I really don't have much of an interest in dragging this out. I'm bummed that Taly left. I thought there was a pretty good vibe going regardless of alignment. But that's neither here nor there. I'm happy to answer anything you want, Paragon. It's in your hands now -- again.