Newbie 1992 | Game Over

[Maduisha]

Hello! It's sleep time for me, but I wanted to leave a post here before the thread gets filled with messages.

I hope we'll have a fun and electrifying game. I hate day 1 because it always feels super slow, but I'll do my best not to get impatient this time around.

VOTE: Team Rocket Queen because I don't like monarchy.

[Maduisha]

I'm here again. Damn timezones, everyone always types a lot while I'm asleep. I caught up already, though.

hello friends!

or should i say,

Hi guys im mason

I see GW ask people if they think the mason claim is legit, but I want to ask you directly. Is this a meme claim, or are you serious?

Any reason you are copying Saudade's intro from that game?

skitter was innocent child in that game and mason is the only day 1 confirmed town in this setup and i didn't want maduisha to get bored enough to yolohammer someone slightly later on like in 1987 so i figured i'd say something that might get the game moving a bit.

I'm glad you tried to get the game moving, because I have a hard time dealing with the RVS and the state of the game during day 1. But I said at the end of that game and the beginning of this one that I wouldn't repeat that, so I'm not sure why are you giving that as a reason. I guess I dug up my own grave with that move in 1987 and people won't trust me on not being needlessly reckless that easily, oh well.

do you see this as a bad thing? why/why not?

Not a fan of it, to be honest. Like, having basically a confirmed townie is a good thing, but I would rather see how everyone reacts, and this way half the players (and probably some if not all of the mafia) will be able to jump in with that info already present. It tells us who not to vote for, but doesn't help us find mafia.

But then, I'm not really a fan of D1 mason flip anyway, so it might just be a personal thing.

clidd and mad: How many games have you been in (here or otherwise?)

FP'd by GeneralWu

generalWu, same question: How many games?

Knowing who not to vote for does help us find mafia by not lynching innocents. As for your question, I have only played one game here. I played a couple of games in a forum with friends many years ago, but the rules were pretty different, and the setups were full of PR, so I don't think my off-site experience is too valuable.

[Maduisha]

From that 1987 game, I have played with GW and Clidd. I don't really know how to read Clidd yet. But GW was mafia in the game I played with him, and he posted lengthier posts, mostly replying to other people, with an interesting amount of fluff in them from time to time. For now I'm not seeing that behavior he had as scum back then, so I have a town lean on him.

I don't have reads/leans for anyone else as of yet, but I liked the Datisi-GW interaction.

[Maduisha]

That being said...

VOTE: UnhealthyKids

Hopefully UnhealthyKids and Melanque come to play with us. Games with replacements don't sound as fun.

[Maduisha]

What do you mean by "liked the interaction"?

I mean that I liked that he questioned why you were interested on Skitter's townlean on him instead of yours, and I also like how you answered to it, since it's true that you would be getting more information from that question vs asking only about yourself. Getting town vibes from the interaction in itself, because I think both his question and your answer were genuine. I have a hard time reading people in isolation, but I think interactions can communicate a lot.

[Maduisha]

I'm from Spain. So yes, Europe.

I voted them to get their attention when they read up to this point, not to call them scummy. I don't think lurkers/inactives are inherently scummy early on in the game when there isn't much going on. And he hasn't even confirmed his role, so obviously my vote isn't because of that.

Also, there's one vote on TRQ and it's a non-meme one, so I thought it'd be weird if I still leave my RVS vote on her and people vote for her later on when I'm not looking at the thread.

[Maduisha]

I guess that is true. I thought it'd communicate "hey, we want you to engage." But if they don't even get to see it, then what's the point...

UNVOTE: Unhealthykids

I should wait for more interaction to happen, because there's nothing that strikes me as scummy right now, and that vote was kind of useless. Hopefully the remaining players show up soon!

[Maduisha]

like it's not a pressure vote because they're literally not aware that you made it if you they are disengaged enough from the forum that the game didn't start

this was meant to say: they're disengaged enough from the forum that they didn't even know the game started

what do you think of generalwu and clidd rn?

do you have any townreads you'd like to share?

or even any gut thoughts that's tickling the back of your brain that you can't explain or substantiate? those are super helpful to share at this stage of the game too to get things moving

I think I already said what I think of GW already. He seems slightly different from the scum!GW that I experienced, which is the only iteration of his that I've seen. I think he's being proactive in the way he speaks, and I like that he's asking questions, so I have a townlean on him.

Clidd I have no idea how to read. He seems the Clidd I saw in last game too, although his entrance is vastly different. But back then he was being prodded and decided to make a big meta reading post as his entrance, this time he was here on time, so I imagine that's the reason of the change. Or maybe he just doesn't feel like pouring as much effort, I don't know. I think he said he spent hours making that post. But enough talking about games that aren't this one. So far, I think Clidd's most memorable actions as of yet are that he confused your comment for a threat, which I don't think it's an alignment indicative comment. I think he just misunderstood the tone. His second most interesting post might be this one:

The time between my post 69 and General Wu's(70) reaction is 2 minutes.

Considering that she would have replied in 30 seconds, if she was already on the page when the post was sent (the distance would be lesser), I suppose she saw the post after 1 minute and a few seconds.

The answer was intuitive and it took something about 1 minute for her to assimilate what was written.

However, posts 81 and 82 showed that she had not absorbed the content properly, considering she was without an accompanying explanation.

So I am inclined to think that the process of reading, answering, analyzing the explanation and then rephrasing her opinion are characteristic of a

town mentality

.

Conclusion:

GeneralWu has my

TL

.

Here he is analyzing GW's messages to get an idea of the authenticity of thought of his response. I think Clidd is trying to slowly build a town group of people he trusts after he tests us in different ways. I would say I have a town lean on him, but I also imagine this is a valid strategy for mafia to try and build the town group themselves, so I'm unsure.

[Maduisha]

Wow, so many short messages while I typed that thing...

Hello, Menalque! I see you like cadence of posts to get things moving, that makes me happy. I see you guys are mentioning Marashu's response to TRQ's claim. I would like to ask what's the scummy part about it, is it that he took the claim seriously right away?

I hope TRQ comes back and tells us whether it was or not, because I'm confused.

[Maduisha]

Because she said she claimed the role so I would not be doing weird hammers again, but I already said I wouldn't. So, I'm confused as to whether it's a meme claim to get us out of RVS, or a real claim to get a confirmed town during day one. In short, that I'm not sure if I should take her seriously or not, because I've never seen people claim PR so early, and the reason seems silly.

[Maduisha]

Wait, that question wasn't for me. Oof.

[Maduisha]

@Menalque: Yes, I am from Catalonia, Spain. Nice to meet you.

I see, so she was memeing us and Marashu took it at face value... now I feel silly for not checking that link in better detail, I thought she was copying some claim day 1 strategy.

[Maduisha]

Here he is analyzing GW's messages to get an idea of the authenticity of thought of his response. I think Clidd is trying to slowly build a town group of people he trusts after he tests us in different ways. I would say I have a town lean on him, but I also imagine this is a valid strategy for mafia to try and build the town group themselves, so I'm unsure.

clidd doing that seems more towny than scummy, at least to me.

I think it's a towny thing too, but I'm also scared of that exact thought being the thing that makes me lower my guard if he's scum.

[Maduisha]

kinda don't think generalwu makes sense as scum other than with skitter

I really can't make any association as to what pairs would make sense right now. Mind explaining how you reached that conclusion? That's something I've seen others do in different games, and it always stood out for me, because I feel like the earlier the game is, the hardest associations are to see, so I would like to understand.

[Maduisha]

kinda don't think generalwu makes sense as scum other than with skitter

I really can't make any association as to what pairs would make sense right now. Mind explaining how you reached that conclusion? That's something I've seen others do in different games, and it always stood out for me, because I feel like the earlier the game is, the hardest associations are to see, so I would like to understand.

there are some things in generalwu that I think are slightly scummy but don't wanna go into for ~*reasons*~ that I'll explain later if needed

skitt having a TR on them could therefore be covering for a buddy who's scum telling because people are generally harder to push when they have someone hard vouching for them, and skitt is more likely to protect a buddy in a newbie than she is to hard bus them imo

so long as skitt is town, I'm willing to trust her read there on top of the townie elements that I see in GW. but just skitt specifically could be protecting him as scum and that makes sense to me as a backup explanation of her not seeing the scummy things

I see, so you're seeing the connection from Skitt's TR on him as a base for speculation about a possible pair working together. If I understand this correctly, this is because of her personality fitting the play, and not because she townread him quickly, right? I think I'm understanding a bit better. Thank you.

Here he is analyzing GW's messages to get an idea of the authenticity of thought of his response. I think Clidd is trying to slowly build a town group of people he trusts after he tests us in different ways. I would say I have a town lean on him, but I also imagine this is a valid strategy for mafia to try and build the town group themselves, so I'm unsure.

clidd doing that seems more towny than scummy, at least to me.

I think it's a towny thing too, but I'm also scared of that exact thought being the thing that makes me lower my guard if he's scum.

yes it's good to not completely rule out the possibility of someone being scum (unless that person is confirmed town)
but it's also not a good idea to tunnel someone by turning his towny posts into scummy ones because "there's always the possibility of him being mafia"

Hey, I'm not "turning his towny post into scummy ones." I pointed out something I found towny about him, but I'm still unsure. Skitt asked me my impressions about Clidd and I thought that comment was the most potentially alignment indicative one, if there's any. The rest of his posts that I didn't mention are talking about our previous game, which is fine.

[Maduisha]

Hey, I'm not "turning his towny post into scummy ones." I pointed out something I found towny about him, but I'm still unsure. Skitt asked me my impressions about Clidd and I thought that comment was the most potentially alignment indicative one, if there's any. The rest of his posts that I didn't mention are talking about our previous game, which is fine.

it seemed to me like you were possibly tunneling
it just seemed to me like you were saying "his post is towny, but I could also use the same post to scumread him later on".

I was just thinking that while that's a way to form a town gang, it could also be something used by mafia to get themselves validated. And Clidd usually tries to find a mathematical solution after estabilishing his townreads, I think the ones that have played with him already know he does that. So, we wouldn't bat an eye if he tries to lead the town once more, and precisely not batting an eye at that would be dangerous if he's scum.

I'm saying that he's his usual self and that he's hard to read, that's all.

[Maduisha]

@Mad who is your top town read and top scum read?

I think I said before that I don't have hard reads, but I'll say it again. For now I'm seeing a TL on GW, but I haven't seen any scummy move from anyone as of yet. People seem to distrust Datisi entirely based on his tone compared to past games, but I'd rather just work with meta information of games I've played in. I know that can sound like I disregard other people's meta reads, but I think I should use only my own experience to form opinions on meta, if I want them to be unbiased. I'd like to see Datisi do anything scummy if I'm going to call them scum, is what I want to say.

In short, my list is:

Town lean

: GeneralWu
Null: Everyone else.

Hard scumread

: Karnage
(I'm sorry, I can't resist joking from time to time. Everything is serious except Karnage, though).

I'm still organizing my reads in the notebook, but I got some observations on Maduisha that I would like to share here:

Post 125, Maduisha.

Spoiler:

''

I see GW ask people if they think the mason claim is legit, but I want to ask you directly. Is this a meme claim, or are you serious?

''

The first paragraph suggests an assimilation of knowledge with her past game, since I have in memory the image of a player named

Jackson

(who was there) citing the term "meme claim", where Maduisha probably observed and absolved the meaning of it.

''

I'm glad you tried to get the game moving, because I have a hard time dealing with the RVS and the state of the game during day 1. But I said at the end of that game and the beginning of this one that I wouldn't repeat that, so I'm not sure why are you giving that as a reason. I guess I dug up my own grave with that move in

1987

and people won't trust me on not being needlessly reckless that easily, oh well.

''

- The second paragraph suggests a significant development with the past gaming experience, being true to the sequence of events that occurred in game

1987

(which I also participated).

Conclusion:

both paragraphs show significant maturity, considering the genuine reflection on the events of her past game. I don't see a scum!Newbie easily forging such a process.

[Town Indicative]

Post

126

, Maduisha.

Spoiler:

From that 1987 game, I have played with GW and Clidd. I don't really know how to read Clidd yet. But GW was mafia in the game I played with him, and he posted lengthier posts, mostly replying to other people, with an interesting amount of fluff in them from time to time. For now I'm not seeing that behavior he had as scum back then, so I have a town lean on him.

- Reasonable, she continued the process of reflection but with an emphasis on information from the meta

scum!GW

. It is important to note that both were in lylo before and it was Maduisha who hammered GW, which perhaps gives a greater credibility to her read than we think.

Conclusion:

Her constant mentions of past game experiences imply an expressive link to the events of

Newbie 1987

, especially since it was her first game on the forum. This does not elucidate, however, if she came back to that game page to check some information. It is likely that she is consulting these memories only in the mental realm, without physically verifying the data.

[Suggestive]

Post

127

~

134

, Maduisha.

Spoiler:

That being said...

VOTE: UnhealthyKids

Hopefully UnhealthyKids and Melanque come to play with us. Games with replacements don't sound as fun.

I guess that is true. I thought it'd communicate "hey, we want you to engage." But if they don't even get to see it, then what's the point...

UNVOTE: Unhealthykids

I should wait for more interaction to happen, because there's nothing that strikes me as scummy right now, and that vote was kind of useless. Hopefully the remaining players show up soon!

- The short progression between these two posts was due to a change of opinion, after interaction with another point of view. The transition from

"they will come to interact if I vote for them"

to

"my vote will not have an effect if they don't read the topic"

seemed true. But, the discriminated motivation:

''

Hopefully UnhealthyKids and Melanque come to play with us. Games with replacements don't sound as fun.

''

- It didn't seem like something naturally created by Madusha, as this is only her second game and, considering that there were no substitutions in that past game, she has no experience with this scenario to have such impression about the event. However, depending on the interpretation, it is possible to state that there was an imaginary assumption about this scenario, keeping in mind that it would not be fun to experience it, so there would be an interest in avoiding it.



- Within the logical line in which Maduisha's vote was externally influenced, I assume that that originates in her past game, with this player:

We can make clidd be at l1 so he has a spicy gamestate upon checking in :3

Yeah, voting for people that haven't even showed up feels wrong. I don't really know who to vote for yet, but those asking for people to cast votes aren't giving me good vibes, and two of them have votes on the same person.

Game: ( https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=82235 )

- There is a continuation of this conversation, but such fragment is essential to understand the first experience she had with votes on inactive slots. She initially showed opposition to the idea, but as the game continued, there was an unconscious maturation on the subject, where she could understand the purpose of the player's action at that moment and, later, convert this experience into a practice, as she tried to apply here, drawing the attention of Unhealthykids and Menalque, because for her, it was an interesting choice. Even though it was not a logically correct thought, her process was genuine, especially with the correction that occurred in our game.

Conclusion:

Genuine experience, assimilation with past games more intense and improvement of observed practices.

[Town Indicative]

Post 168

, Maduisha.

Spoiler:

I think I already said what I think of GW already. He seems slightly different from the scum!GW that I experienced, which is the only iteration of his that I've seen. I think he's being proactive in the way he speaks, and I like that he's asking questions, so I have a townlean on him.

Clidd I have no idea how to read. He seems the Clidd I saw in last game too, although his entrance is vastly different. But back then he was being prodded and decided to make a big meta reading post as his entrance, this time he was here on time, so I imagine that's the reason of the change. Or maybe he just doesn't feel like pouring as much effort, I don't know. I think he said he spent hours making that post. But enough talking about games that aren't this one. So far, I think Clidd's most memorable actions as of yet are that he confused your comment for a threat, which I don't think it's an alignment indicative comment. I think he just misunderstood the tone. His second most interesting post might be this one:

Here he is analyzing GW's messages to get an idea of the authenticity of thought of his response. I think Clidd is trying to slowly build a town group of people he trusts after he tests us in different ways. I would say I have a town lean on him, but I also imagine this is a valid strategy for mafia to try and build the town group themselves, so I'm unsure.

- Exceptional interpretation of information, with transparency when reporting her thoughts on the players mentioned. I can't see bias here.

[Suggestive]

Town indicative

, congratulations Maduisha.

Thank you, I guess. I hope you are not trying to pocket me with this town indicative analysis. You were one of the only ones trusting me on that last game, too, so I'm not sure if I'm being too paranoid. I want to put you on my town leans too, but I'm a bit scared of scum!you playing with my mind. I'll have to wait and see how you move later on.

were you voting randomly though
or was it a legitimate vote

i did not choose marashu at random

GW already said this and I don't want to parrot him, but please give us your insight so we can:

(1) Build our opinion on you based on the reason why you suspect and want to vote someone. Explaining your train of thought when you're thinking someone is scummy helps people see if it's a conclusion they'd reach too, and so they can update their opinion about you.

(2) Understand your point and see ourselves why Marashu is scum in your opinion. There are more than one vote on him, and he had others vote him in the past, so we know you are not baselessly voting him. You actually find him scummy. Now, please attach reasons to the vote so we can understand you, if you do this exact thing when there are more votes on someone, you might start looking like you're trying to hide the fact that you don't have an argument against the person and you're just trying to jump the wagon. This is not an accusation, please don't misunderstand it as such. I'm just saying it as a tip, because people are less likely to sympathize with you if you vote and provide no reasons.

General consensus is that Marashu is scummy because he took your meme claim as serious right away. Is your reason the same one, and that's why you didn't mention it? Or is it a different one?

[Maduisha]

I'd like to see Datisi do anything scummy if I'm going to call them scum

what do you think of dats' lack of reads or pushing ?

Well, he might not be pushing Marashu hard, but he has a vote on him, so I'd say he has a scum lean on Marashu even if he didn't state it outright. I don't want to put words on his mouth, though. Maybe he's seeing everyone as null for now and he'll get more reads as we keep interacting.

[Maduisha]

yeah i'm not seeing it chief

will get back to this once the sun is up

goodnight friends

which sent my mind racing. not seeing it... hmm... once the sun is up could mean real world tomorrow but could also mean in game tomorrow...

Uhh, I think his comment here just meant "I don't know what else to add here right now, I'm tired and going to bed."

I don't know what else to see it as... unless you really want to imply the repeated use of the word friend means something. I'm unfamiliar with breadcrumbing techniques, but I imagine people would try for something that can be easily recognisable in retrospect, not something like that. Like, in a hypothetical scenario in which you were claiming masons with Datisi and using this as a way to tell us it was like that all along, I would be pretty confused.

And I can't really understand what would scum!Datisi gain from commenting about "being back when the sun is up ingame"... I really want to understand it, but I can't.

[Maduisha]

Like if you were 90% on me being scum when you voted for marashu they why tf did you vote for marashu
None of this makes any sense
What

Maybe she was trying to see if you'd continue the "breadcrumbing" that got into her mind, so she considered you scummy but wanted to hold for a bit longer to "have more proof"... that's the only thing that comes to mind if I try to put myself in her shoes.

[Maduisha]

Honestly, TRQ's accusation is so out there that I have a hard time thinking it comes from scum, even if it makes no sense.

[Maduisha]

it's hard for me to believe that she actually thinks - 'the word friend means he's fake-crumbing mason in the event he thinks i'm a mason and wants to kill me so that he can cc my real mason partner tomorrow'

*after* we established that trq's mason-claim to start the game was obviously fake

like i have trouble believing she thinks that's a real possibility

Wait, that's also true... first she voted Marashu for believing the claim, meaning she was proclaiming it fake with that vote on him, now she's pushing Datisi over fake crumbing the mason claim that everyone

including

herself had in mind as fake... the thought process doesn't click for me.

Well, the whole accusation doesn't click for me because it sounds absurd, but the thought process behind it is actually the head scratcher here.

[Maduisha]

I am one of the people that said one of those two things. So, I see a pretty long interaction of people saying you're talking in a scummy way because they know how you play. I address said interaction by saying I see no scummy action from the point of view of someone that doesn't know you. Am I scummy for wanting to base my reads on my own experience...?

I am really confused. I want to know how to interact with you, or how to read you, because right now I don't understand what do you expect from others seeing that interaction from the outside.

[Maduisha]

i think it applies to Town!Datisi meta bc i don't think i've ever done it as scum
but also i don't think i've had the opportunity to do it as scum
so
yeah

You

think

?

I suppose if it were used by

scum!Datisi

here, it would brutally lose credibility in future games, correct ?

So, it would be logical to assume that you would remain in the town line using it, to be more successful when rescuing that meta to win townread in other games.

Clidd, you have to consider two things:

- People are not always thinking of usage of their current position for future games every time they make a play in a game, even if it ends up impacting them later on.
-

If

what you're implying is true, doesn't it also open the possibility that the meltdown was not a weapon to get people to unvote him, and was just, in fact, a real meltdown and that's it?

i can guarantee you regardless of my alignment that i was legit upset w the game

doesn't seem impossible to me that scum would be very upset if my logic was wrong but my vote still landed on them, either.

So, Datisi is playing with two people that know how he plays. Even if he's legit upset, don't you think scum would try to cover that up, especially if those people that know him are aware that he usually doesn't get upset like that when he's playing town?

[Maduisha]

do you disagree with skitters post here

Huh... wait, were you trying to get a town read for yourself from Datisi by confronting him with the opinion of one of his town-locked players? Or are you just trying to get him to unvote you? Trusting a player's capabilities doesn't mean sheeping their opinions completely, just a reminder.

Also, do you still believe the accusation you made on Datisi is reasonable, or has the popular opinion made you disengage from it?

[Maduisha]

I'm reading Datisi as town after all this. My reasons are that he's not feeling pressured to make new reads even though he was accused of the fact that he's not pushing anyone at all being scummy in him. Not reacting is also a reaction, if that makes sense. He's also keeping the options open, but not in a fence-sitting way, since he has expressed two people he firmly believes as town and excluded them from the equation to further narrow the PoE.

And the anger thing, as I said in my reply to TRQ, I think is something scum would have breathed deeply and tried to keep hidden if it puts them further into SR territory for being out of character for their town selves.

[Maduisha]

can I just say dats that if you have faked this then I think I might need a break from playing games with you for a while

Menal also got my attention here because he made a comment of this nature after commenting that he's uncomfortable because Datisi's post felt like emotional manipulation, yet he's appealing to emotions here too right after that. Feels like an emotional response to justify the unvote (if he needed said justification). Unless I'm misunderstanding the tone, which is entirely possible.

[Maduisha]

So, Datisi is playing with two people that know how he plays. Even if he's legit upset, don't you think scum would try to cover that up, especially if those people that know him are aware that he usually doesn't get upset like that when he's playing town?

i got the sense from menalque and datisi that datisi doesn't get this upset as either alignment and is more likely to do so as town, so why would scum hide that?

What you said before is that scum can get legit upset if they get a vote on themselves from an accusation with the "wrong logic". So that's why I said that scum in his place would try to hide that genuine emotion, as it's subject to be mistaken as emotional manipulation (like it was here by Menal), which can look scummy on their part, even if it makes people unvote. Town!Datisi is more likely to get his feelings out without thinking about the consequences of doing so, is what I'm trying to say.

[Maduisha]

Yes, I have moved to TR you for reasons I gave in post 452, while my TL on GW hasn't been updated. I don't like that he started talking about things he will do later, because that throws me back to the game I played with him in which he was scum and kept saying thing like that to pad the thread with his posts and make it seem like he's present when he's not. But everything will be okay as long as he fulfills the promise of coming back when he has more time. He also asked for a summary, which I don't know how to interpret. Still a TL, will wait to see if he reads it all and brings post that are more related to the game itself and less to his real life schedule.

Everybody else stays null.

I want to be cautious about Clidd specifically because I'm not sure if he's his usual game-solving mentality Clidd, or if he's trying to pocket the ones that have already played with him, but I don't read him as anything at the moment.

[Maduisha]

Well, I don't read people as leaning scum right now, but I think I have expressed which behaviors are worrying me so far. Clidd, who I'm not sure if he's pocketing or not. Menalque who appealed to emotions after stating that he felt uncomfortable due to potential emotional manipulation from you. And the TRQ bit in which I feel like she's trying to make you doubt Skitt, but she already corrected me and her weird accusation makes me think she's town, so I don't think I'll try to dig deeper into that.

[Maduisha]

I only have a game of experience over here, so I don't really know what is "usual" for me in term of reading speed... and that one game was particularly different because I made day 1 end pretty quickly, and my reads were based on behavior before/after lynch on the next few days. I think I read scum in that game in a reactionary way, if that makes sense. It almost costed us the game, which I agree is pretty yikes.

[Maduisha]

I think it's a strange post considering what he said before, that's all. I don't think it's enough to SR him, as he likely posted it in the heat of the moment, too.

[Maduisha]

The fluff posting is the only thing that concerns me about GW. He feels different from what I saw in the last game when he was scum, then again he himself said he changed playstyles at will when I brought attention to that. I still think he's townier than not, he probably actually hasn't had the time to read up everything yet.

[Maduisha]

Hm... so, you think he's making like "anchor" posts to make us feel he's still here, when at the same time he's telling us he hasn't read up?

[Maduisha]

Hello, Word! Welcome to the game. I hope the amount of posts didn't overwhelm you.

I would like to understand more about your suspicion about Clidd, since you mentioned the words "emotional manipulation" in post 550. As I understand it, you want to convey the fact that you think he might be trying to bias me towards him by using praise. Is this correct? I would not call it emotional manipulation, personally. But, I just want to have a clear idea of what you meant there. Do you think the fact that he inspected my ISO in detail and nobody else's is suspicious? Or just the fact that he approached in a "teacher" kind of tone by saying I've learned, etc?

not really bc I dont have too much time rn

Also, hi, GW. I know you said you'd probably wouldn't have much time until Saturday, but we have been talking about you recently. I was wondering if you'd address Datisi's concern about your last few messages (before your recent appearance).

[Maduisha]

@GeneralWu, I addressed you about this before, but I think you didn't read my post, so I'll try a second time. What do you think about this post about you by Datisi? We had been talking about you a couple of pages back.

I'm not exactly worried about him not having read the game, like if he just popped in, said "lmao you post a lot i'm busy catch yall later" and left i wouldn't really care for it?

but like he got in, said that he hasn't had the chance to read, but then he's making comments about unimportant things like "if i had a mafia partner who wanted to die, i would kill them and claim vigilante" and "on a different website i randed scum more than town" which like

why?

like i get it could be a personality trait or wtv but it just seems like something more likely to come from scum wanting to appear more active and engaged than they actually are

@Marashu, I know you said you ought to work, but please address this when you have time.

Dat's explosion aside, I find skitt's interaction around this post interesting. Skitt asks whether or not to apply pressure, then asks if Dat needs a chance to towntell, then puts on pressure while Dat is exploding, then unvotes to remove pressure.

ok, and what do you take away from this?
does it affect ur read on me?

[Maduisha]

I was re-reading a bit to see in which direction we could take the discussion while we wait for Menalque, GeneralWu, and Marashu to answer the questions laid out for them, then I noticed this post by TRQ that I didn't pay too much attention to before:

I don't know if TRQ is telling the truth, but I do think that TRQ is serious. I don't know why any other townie would claim that, and it's stupid (but welcome) for mafia to claim that. Only the other mason (and probably the mafia) would know for sure if TRQ is telling the truth, and roughly as many people would know if TRQ is lying.

generalwu's post made me notice this again. notably absent from this list of people who would know the truth of my claim if i was serious is any other pr that is in the game.

Does this mean he just forgot to mention the potential existence of other PRs? Or maybe he was so convinced the claim was real that he disregarded it completely.

a lot of buildup. must be a pretty time consuming endeavor.

It's true that Clidd disappeared after saying he'd do something "now" and that's a bit weird, but it was late in Spain when he posted that, so maybe he fell asleep...? Regardless, it's true that it's the second time he says he's going to do that and delivers nothing. Hm...

[Maduisha]

Marashu's last post was so long ago that I fear we might be getting another replacement soon...

[Maduisha]

I was town reading TRQ at first, but I'm starting to have doubts. I feel like TRQ might be tunneling Dat.

I don't know, Marashu. I feel like TRQ is town

because

she tunneled Datisi in that strange way. Unless she's playing 4D chess here, there's no way she's scum and thought such a crazy theory would make Datisi look scummy

or

her look more town. As for fishing for PRs... it's not impossible, but I feel like it's a weird assumption. The only thing I can potentially see as role fishing is not from you, because it's the mason claim in itself. But with it being thrown during RVS, I have a hard time thinking TRQ was trying to fish roles or reactions with her claim. And no town player playing a PR would jump at that and reveal themselves at the start of day 1, so I don't think what I just proposed makes any sense.

[Maduisha]

Hi, Clidd! Thank you for your extensive read on her. I want to bring attention to two things you said there.

- First she induces the interpretation that the vote was sporadic, that is, random. Then she goes back and contradicts the content of the previous post, without explaining what happened. The lack of transparency makes it difficult to understand her line of reasoning, giving the impression of an unconscious bipolarity.

First being this one. While I don't disagree with your read about the difficulty in focusing and lack of apparent cohesion, I want to point out that the nature of the way she posts makes the big picture harder to see (short messages, things she wants to tie being far apart in different messages of the thread and she doesn't call back to her own messages all the time to tell us what is she talking about), that doesn't mean she's doing things at random. Maybe her wording in this message gave the impression that she was voting Marashu to just have her vote on someone, but I think what she tried to say is "I had FoS on Marashu, and there's no benefit from me not directly placing the vote for pressure." It's a matter of wording, but I think it changes the meaning of that message and eliminates this incoherence.

The second thing being that you said TRQ can only be scum if Menalque is scum. Are there any other reasons why you think that, aside from what you just said? Also, you said there's lack of interaction between them, but I wonder about that. You yourself said she mentioned Menalque directly three times, and I do recall Menalque saying he townreads her at least twice. They haven't conversed per se, but I wouldn't say they've been avoiding each other. I agree that I would like to see more interaction between the two, though.

[Maduisha]

With that said, I have doubts about GeneralWu, Marashu, Menalque and Skitter.

Interestingly, I believe that there are 2

scums

among these players,

considering

that Datisi is not mimicking his behavior in our last game in common.

Menalque talks a lot, so I have a hard time thinking he's scum. He'd slip once or twice with the amount of message and message speed he has. If he is scum, I'd be impressed. There's lack of premeditation in his behavior, is what I'm seeing. I would like to know what you think about Skitter, because so far I don't know how to read her. Are your doubts about Marashu the same as everyone else's? (That he took the mason claim seriously).

About GeneralWu, I said I had a TL on him, but I'm starting to think he's more of a null slot, because he has been making sort of anchor posts saying he'll read later at least twice, ignored posts addressed at him, but still took the time to reply at comments about Marashu that were on the same page, so I wonder. He's posting a bit too much for someone that has to catch up still, yet he does it in small bursts and then disappears again. This is not his meta from last game entirely, because he poured effort into deceiving us last time, and now he's acting blatant enough to even directly ask for summaries. I thought that was scummy, but then I read Marashu say that maybe it's so blatantly scummy that it can only come from town, and I feel a bit wifom about it. What do you think about GWu?

[Maduisha]

Menalque talks a lot, so I have a hard time thinking he's scum. He'd slip once or twice with the amount of message and message speed he has.

that is a very very not good reason to TL him.

Is it not? He interacts with everyone a good deal, and the way he posts makes me think he isn't planning the questions he asks, or the reactions he'd get. I'd say transparent lack of premeditation is towny.

[Maduisha]

If he is capable, then he's a scary player, indeed. But I think the fact that he interacts a lot with everyone is also very telling, not just post count. I'm aware that most of his messages are short.

[Maduisha]

Interesting. So, I can't trust Menalque just on transparency from what you two have told me, since he can fake that as well. That makes me feel a bit uneasy, because I was reading him as town already. The same thing applying to Skitt is also troublesome, but I didn't have a strong feeling about her, anyway. She makes interesting questions, but aside from her interaction with Melanque/Datisi early on, I feel a bit at a loss on what to look at (and it's not because of lack of post volume, of course).

[Maduisha]

As for GWu acting strange, I feel the same. I was pretty confident with the towny tone I was feeling from him on the first pages because it felt like a different playstyle from scum!GWu, but now he's doing this weird thing of appearing saying he has not read the thread more than once, but still interacts with the latest posts to defend Marashu, while ignoring the talk about him that was happening just the page prior. I feel contradictory things, so I feel he's more of a null slot for the time being. FoS on him because I feel his recent actions are a bit iffy (the anchor posting, mostly), but I don't want to vote him yet. He said he'd have more time on Saturday, so I hope he'll pay us a visit soon.

But it's late where I live, so it's time I disappear.

[Maduisha]

also I remember having a slight scumread on datisi but I forgot why oops
I think it was one of the posts about me so let me go back and see which one it was (if there was any post at all)

Uh, this post pings me as strange, because I think it's more logical to search your own ISO and quote where the read is, instead of stating you've scumread someone for reasons you don't remember anymore... it feels a bit like you're trying to push the general idea of yourself contributing with scum reads as a thing that has already happened. But I might be tunneling here, it's such an easily verifiable thing that I wonder if it's scummy or not to say this.

He's done p much nothing, that's the thing. The only pop in was a vague comment about *what* has happened that wasn't game-advancing at all.

ok so I didn't really like the fact that datisi was quickly pushing marashu, but I can see why it makes sense now.
I get a feeling that marashu could indeed be mafia just sitting there and lurking the whole game.
However, that's only if he keeps doing this for an extended period of time.
I know that different people have different amounts of time to play this game, but if marashu is clearly purposely not doing anything, then that could be considered scummy.

Even though what datisi said did indeed make sense, I don't really like how he pushed this quickly.

datisi and marashu are probably not w/w.

Okay, so you found Datisi's push of Marashu to be scummy. But if you read the thread, you'll see that there's nothing "quick" about it. People have been suspecting Marashu almost since the first time he posted.

Spoiler:

My vote's already there. I'm not only talking about Datisi calling him scummy, but I'll leave you here the posts in which he's seeing Marashu as scummy, prior to the moment you came to argue with him:

Yes, it sounds sketch as all shit that I'm saying that when my vote was at the time largely RVS and after both you and skitt have expressed willingness to vote there recently
but fuck

can you explain why Maru is your top pick for scum?

most of it has already been said
the way they kept talking about the mason claim while kind of not really offering anything conclusive about it
also the fact that they've kinda ~disappeared~ but the game is still early i guess

also my "RVS" vote was aimed at them and it was pretty obviously hypocritical
and they didn't really mention it at all later on
and i kinda felt like town is more likely to mention it as opposed to scum being more likely to ignore it

one thing i was interested in hearing about *didn't* get mentioned but the whole thing gets kinda ruined if i explicitly prod about it so

what's the benefit of saying this? to make us think, "hm, i wonder what it is, let me reread the thread looking for exactly this. oh i think i found something, but i better not draw attention to it." because that does not seem very towny to me.

(it was the RVS vote thing explained above)
and i really don't think i have a concrete reply to this
i mentioned it because it was on my mind and i was also curious to other's reactions to my comment as well
do you think mentioning that makes me outright scummy or?

I thought you thought that mara had good odds of being scum?

independetly of everything else? yes

but i'm realistic enough to know that just because i think someone is scum doesn't mean they are
plus i'm getting the same gut feeling that just chain lynching the "scummy" slots won't do us any good here
it feels ~wrong~

datisi immediately saying i die for it still feels off to me.

Nah
My thoughts were
Either you're scum doing an extremely shitty push or you're Town who we can't trust to make any sort ot objective decision in the later, more important days if THAT case is something you believe in
So it's a win win

This was partly influenced by emotion but I'm not sure if I've walked away from that completely rn

Because the last post by Marashu, which had words but didn't say anything really doesn't make me feel better about them

But I'm still torn between voting for either of you
So

maybe i'm again trying to be big brain 9000 IQ sniping deepwolves

maybe should stop for a bit

VOTE: marashu

My point is, this is not a sudden thing that has happened, but a read shared by many for almost as long as the game has been running.

Aside from that, the fact that you've ignored Datisi's question about having caught up, and Marashu's question directed at you, I imagine that you still haven't had time to do a full read because of real world constraints. Real world obligations come first and I can't expect you to prioritize the game to them. However, this is not the first, or the second time you post to answer only the latest messages without addressing anything else and go away. You've already addressed this concern of mine, yet keep doing the same thing, so I wonder if it's towny on your part that didn't start avoiding that behavior right away, or scummy that it keeps happening. I really don't know what to think.

I still consider your slot to be a null one, because it's perfectly possible that you're just having real life constraints. However, I want to escalate the FoS I had on you into a vote, because I think the potential scumminess of this behavior should not be overlooked. I didn't vote you before, because I was waiting for you to come back on Saturday as promised. I feel you could use some pressure to catch up and put your thoughts together.

VOTE: GeneralWu

[Maduisha]

Word, thank you for your extensive read on Skitt. I agree with the consistency of her mindset, as in that she hasn't been swayed to change her reads and stayed true to her thought process, but it's true that I don't know exactly how to read her. She'll come to interact with us soon because she was on V/LA recently and she probably wants to update her reads as of now, so I look forward to hearing more of her input so I can have a more accue read of her slot.

i still highly suspect clidd, that hasnt changed at all. but i have arrived at some conclusions. clidd has a high mortality ratio and a high success ratio. that means he may not live for long; him surviving to day 3 would be weird, without a scum lynch in the previous days in a lylo situation for example. so until dead, the information we can get is very benefitial, town or scum. confirmed town hypothesis are always in good faith.

As for Clidd being suspicious if left alive as the nights pass because of his usual high mortality ratio, I think it's a double edged sword to point out such a thing. While it may very well indicate he's scummy, this can also be used as a weapon by mafia to give us a misdirection by leaving him alive on purpose.

[Maduisha]

Hum, speaking of V/LA and absence, Menalque has been gone for longer than Skitt. Hopefully he comes back soon.

[Maduisha]

Does this mean he just forgot to mention the potential existence of other PRs? Or maybe he was so convinced the claim was real that he disregarded it completely.

Scum has no way of knowing rn if we're in a masons setup
I dont think it's that scummy that he didnt mention the other prs
If anything its lowkey townie that he didng understand the setup

If it's somewhat towny in your opinion that he misunderstood stuff, why do you think he's still a good lynch? Is the content of his posts scummy past that point? He posts too little for my taste, but I don't think the posts are empty. The questions he leaves here and there are a bit weird because they seem targeted at random, and he never replies to the person when they answer it, so that pings me as weird too.

[Maduisha]

Also, @Karnage, you forgot my vote in the vote count. I'm so sad right now.

[Maduisha]

Okay, so you found Datisi's push of Marashu to be scummy. But if you read the thread, you'll see that there's nothing "quick" about it. People have been suspecting Marashu almost since the first time he posted.

I mean datisi seemed to me like one of the people who was scumreading marashu the hardest.

Also regarding marashu I don't like how people are scumreading him from the first time he posted...

I don't mean to be rude, but first it was that the push was "quick" and now it's that he scumread him too hard. Which one is it?

I still consider your slot to be a null one, because it's perfectly possible that you're just having real life constraints. However, I want to escalate the FoS I had on you into a vote, because I think the potential scumminess of this behavior should not be overlooked. I didn't vote you before, because I was waiting for you to come back on Saturday as promised. I feel you could use some pressure to catch up and put your thoughts together.

VOTE: GeneralWu

so, you consider my slot a null one, but then you vote me anyways
do you think I'm null or do you think I'm scummy

I explained why I voted you while declaring you a null read, don't act like I don't put it in the message you just quoted...? But yeah, anyway, I considered you a towny vibe slot, then I saw scummy behavior from you and decided to take a step back. I might be tunneling a bit, but I don't like your latest messages. I feel like these are a bit on the scummy side too on top of the ones prior to my vote, so as of right now I now I think you're scummy.

[Maduisha]

I think the main thing I don't like is your replying to the recent messages while still saying you haven't caught up... I would rather if you read the whole thing, and then replied to us. Otherwise it gives the impression that you are trying to drag that catch-up for as long as possible. But I'm not your mom (I think), so I can't tell you what to do.

[Maduisha]

and for the second part, you basically changed your mind within the span of a single post
Earlier in that post I quoted you said "I think he's null" but then before you even finished writing the post, you changed your mind and thought I was scummy?
Or maybe now you're attempting to go like "nope I actually meant something else"?

I explained my thought process already, but I'll do it again.

- I thought you had a towny vibe, TL.
- You had activity issues, but still a TL.
- The activity issues continue, and you make some posts I deem scummy. I decide to take a step back and consider your slot null. I don't call you scummy in that post, but leave FoS on you because I don't like what I've seen, and vote you to pressure you to catch up.
- In light of even more posts I consider scummy, and continued activity issues, I consider the slot to lean scummier than town.

Here you have my thought process laid out for you once again. Feel free to pick it apart and ask me anything you like, but I believe I explained why I found you scummy already. I feel like you're making me repeat myself a lot.

[Maduisha]

it only seems plausible a scenario of men/clidd with some kind of weird magical tricks of lampshading the possibility of each other being scum. highly unlikely.

You seem pretty focused on Clidd still, but I'm glad you considered other people in your previous post aswe. Do you have impressions about other possible partners for Clidd? I say that because you've paired Menalque with Skitt already in your mind as a possibility, but you mention Menalque here too. I know you said you think they're an unlikely pair, but you still posted so that we have it in our minds too, in case it turns out to be not at all that crazy of an idea. That leads me to believe you are either subconsciously suspecting Menalque a lot, or trying to fit Clidd anywhere you can.

I know you don't want to rule Clidd out easily because he pinged you as weird pretty early on, but I think you're tunneling on your first impression and that can hamper your view of the game.

[Maduisha]

3. very little follow-through in their posts. like they ask a lot of questions but they dont' seem to go anywhere. one thought doesn't track from one post to the next. there doesn't seem to be any consistent pov that's directing their posts or questions

This one is the most worrying, in my opinion. I know a lot of people disliked his opening, but this is the thing that I dislike the most about Marashu's posts.

[Maduisha]

I'm wondering now about my scum read of GWu... he did jump to protect Marashu, but now I don't know if that's town indicative or scum indicative, since it was so direct. I didn't scum read him for that in particular, but still.

[Maduisha]

is word too weird to be scum or just weird enough to be scum

I think his posts are pretty towny, except because of his weird obsession with Clidd being an emotional manipulator or something.

maduisha please vote for marashu

Alright.

VOTE: Marashu

I can't believe you're stealing the hammer from me, though. I enjoyed doing D1 hammer on my last game.

[Maduisha]

Clidd said he'd come back with a Marashu analysis, and Marashu said he'd come back with a Skitt analysis, rip those I guess.

[Maduisha]

and for the second part, you basically changed your mind within the span of a single post
Earlier in that post I quoted you said "I think he's null" but then before you even finished writing the post, you changed your mind and thought I was scummy?
Or maybe now you're attempting to go like "nope I actually meant something else"?

I explained my thought process already, but I'll do it again.

- I thought you had a towny vibe, TL.
- You had activity issues, but still a TL.
- The activity issues continue, and you make some posts I deem scummy. I decide to take a step back and consider your slot null. I don't call you scummy in that post, but leave FoS on you because I don't like what I've seen, and vote you to pressure you to catch up.
- In light of even more posts I consider scummy, and continued activity issues, I consider the slot to lean scummier than town.

Here you have my thought process laid out for you once again. Feel free to pick it apart and ask me anything you like, but I believe I explained why I found you scummy already. I feel like you're making me repeat myself a lot.

so is it mainly those posts you think are scummy or mainly bc of activity
tbh I have a sl on you because you seem to be using these little reasons to sr me even though activity shouldn't really be used as a basis for scumreading someone.

she throws these votes out of the blue with no explanations given. I checked her ISO and she didn't provide reasons before casting those votes. Also, in some cases she only explains after being told to do so by someone else.
And I still haven't found her reasons for voting marashu.

ok and?
is this scummy of me?
if it is ... because?
if it isn't .. why bring it up?

what do you think
ofc it's scummy to just vote people and not provide reasons

Once again you make me repeat myself. I said in my last post towards you, and I repeat again, that I find you scummy because of the content of your messages That I brought to your attention that you were anchor posting and you answered with this:

i'm not trying to appear more active or anything
since I wouldn't consider those posts as actual contribution.
I just posted those because I didn't have time to read the game and I wasn't going to get anything done in a short amount of time anyways, so I just made a few random posts.

This reads as "I don't have much time to try to contribute, so I might as well just not try and fluffpost away". And then you proceeded to defend Marashu out of nowhere while claiming not having read the thread, while ignoring questions directed at you on the same page. Then, when you reappear, you defend yourself and Marashu and provide nothing else. Accuse Datisi of "rushing" a push on Marashu (when he has been the main suspect for days now), then when I point that out, you insist that Datisi is still scummy for wanting to pressure everyone's main scumread to be more engaging or get lynched.

Finally, when I decided to vote you to encourage you to catch up soon, you try to paint it in a different light

when I explicitly stated that the vote was for pressure

on the vote post. Your response to pressure is bad, is what I'm trying say. Call it bullshit if you want, but I really don't think my scumread on you is coming out of nowhere. I'd honestly prefer to lynch you today instead of Marashu because you're giving me the worst vibes out of everyone, but I'm satisfied with this wagon as well, and I don't think anyone (except perhaps Datisi) is going to support my read over Marashu. Which I understand.

[Maduisha]

Mad, what do u think about possible flips? You said youd rather lynch gw than Mara. but what do u think about the possible results of those lynchs? mara flipping town, mara flipping scum, gw flipping town and gw flipping scum.
I think if mara flips town, that may be indicative that gw may be town too, but i cant rly sriously consider gws game if that was not the case, AT ALL. Im not too sure about what to think from a town flip from gw, since mara has not interacted with the game at all.

If Marashu is scum, I feel like GWu is scum because he's basically only appearing to defend Marashu and himself. And he keeps talking about the scumminess of Marashu that makes him nullread him, but still pushes the town narrative. If Marashu is town, then some of the more active people that tried to push for him from very early on might be looking a bit scummy here instead.

If GWu is scum, I don't really know who else to link with him other than Marashu himself. Maybe Clidd...? But I can't see a clear connection between the two, other than Clidd giving him a town lean early. He had some negative interactions with Datisi and myself, so you could pull from there if he flips town.

I really feel like there's less information for us if we lynch GWu instead of Marashu, so I'd call for a Marashu flip D1 even if I'm scumreading GWu more than him and I'd prefer his lynch. It's just instrumentally better to flip Marashu, I think.

[Maduisha]

While GWu fluffposts a good deal and disappears, he's more likely to bring us content to work with than Marashu, if you get what I mean.

[Maduisha]

I've also explained that him not following up on his posts could be associated with his activity:
Let's suppose you were inactive for a while, and there were a whole bunch of posts. The questions you asked earlier are pretty much irrelevant to the current discussion. Maybe not completely irrelevant, but following up on those posts would not make much sense in the current context. Therefore, you don't.

Okay. And what happens when the posts are irrelevant to the discussion in the moment he posted them? I think that's the main scummy thing here, that there were discussions going on, and he comes, pops a question at a random person and disappears.

[Maduisha]

I don't support killing marashu today because there are scummier people than him.

Alright, who are those scummier people? Is it me because I tried to push you for your behavior, or...?

[Maduisha]

Ah, maybe he's talking about himself.

(I'm sorry.)

[Maduisha]

This reads as "I don't have much time to try to contribute, so I might as well just not try and fluffpost away". And then you proceeded to defend Marashu out of nowhere while claiming not having read the thread, while ignoring questions directed at you on the same page. Then, when you reappear, you defend yourself and Marashu and provide nothing else. Accuse Datisi of "rushing" a push on Marashu (when he has been the main suspect for days now), then when I point that out, you insist that Datisi is still scummy for wanting to pressure everyone's main scumread to be more engaging or get lynched.

Finally, when I decided to vote you to encourage you to catch up soon, you try to paint it in a different light when I explicitly stated that the vote was for pressure on the vote post. Your response to pressure is bad, is what I'm trying say. Call it bullshit if you want, but I really don't think my scumread on you is coming out of nowhere. I'd honestly prefer to lynch you today instead of Marashu because you're giving me the worst vibes out of everyone, but I'm satisfied with this wagon as well, and I don't think anyone (except perhaps Datisi) is going to support my read over Marashu. Which I understand.

As mafia would anyone admit he didn't read the thread?
probably nobody.

As town, would anyone say "didn't read lol" and continue to post in the thread as if it didn't matter?

[Maduisha]

I don't support killing marashu today because there are scummier people than him.

Alright, who are those scummier people? Is it me because I tried to push you for your behavior, or...?

Don't ignore this, please. Tell us where to vote if Marashu is a "bad push". Surely, you don't need time to reread the thread to answer it since reading all posts doesn't matter when playing mafia, according to you.

[Maduisha]

vote for datisi

Nice. Now sustain why he's scummier than Marashu, and why this is a "good push", unlike lynching Marashu, please. Last time I checked, mafia was a team game and you get nowhere if people don't share your views.

[Maduisha]

I hope Clidd comes back with that Marashu read he said he might do. I know Skitter said she doesn't want to lynch just yet, but knowing how everybody feels about him might help us move forward at least.

[Maduisha]

I agree. And we're set to get more information from him flipping than anything else we could do right now. We have to wait for Clidd, though, since Skitter does not want the lynch yet, and GWu is focused on scum!Datisi.

[Maduisha]

Wait no, we do have to wait until Skitter agrees too. For some reason I thought he was at L-1, but he only has 3 votes on his wagon.

[Maduisha]

I don't know how willing are TRQ and Word to change their votes, but that's an option too. But I'll respect if they want to keep their positions still.

[Maduisha]

Hello, Clidd. Thank you for your analysis, as always. I found particularly interesting the point you had about Marashu having a case against Skitter being weird if he's scum, since Skitter has bought him more time. But ultimately I think he's too scummy to be let go of, I'm happy we agree on the SR.

I have a mental vote on Marashu.

I see that you have the intent to vote him, but you're not doing so. Is it because you want to hammer, or because you're not completely confident in the read to vote as of yet?

[Maduisha]

I don't buy the claim. He's just saying VT counting on the small chance of people overthinking the fact that he's not trying to fish for PRs before dying. Notice how he doesn't address Skitter's defense of his case on her, and when Clidd pointed out that Skitter delayed his lynch, he ignored the comment. I'd call for a hammer.

[Maduisha]

I'm also okay with pressuring GWu, because as I said before, I find him the scummiest, despite all the stuff Marashu did. Although I thought only Datisi was with me on that.

[Maduisha]

In that game, he replied to people more than generate discussion himself. In part because he was scum, and also in part because another player was tunneling him hard almost from the moment he appeared. He posted stuff without substance (like redundant information about the setup), also constantly promised to come back later, or look at X person's ISO, and never delivered.

I'm not sure if I'm allowed to quote myself from that thread, but before I voted him and ended the game, I made a post about the things I found scummy or towny out of the two players in lylo with me, which I think summarizes it.

[Maduisha]

I feel like as scum in that game, he posted more wall-like posts than he is doing right now. But he's keeping those "I'll come back later" kind of posts now and I'm not sure anymore.

[Maduisha]

before I get called out again for "not reading the thread" i'm only replying to this post right now since I just saw it and it looks interesting. I'll post more later.

if someone refuses to hammer once we have 4 votes on and i'm confident it's an all town wagon then I'm going to start calling refusal to declare intent a scumclaim

isn't this the equivalent of saying "if you don't agree with me you're mafia"?

Like, in this post he does it again. Promise about coming back, as if he needs to justify absence. And I find it funny that he's mocking the thing that is causing scumreads on him, but still does the thing anyway.

[Maduisha]

Okay, here it is:

Spoiler:

As I see it...

Positive/things that I think are

townie

from GW:

- Relatively high post rate.

- Did not participate in any mislynch (or any lynching at all, I actually don't know how to read this, but I'll put it in here).

- Focused me (with reasons) when people were concentrating on 72, and didn't give in to JV's attempts to manipulate his vote during that day. I consider this a townie thing because it indicates authenticity of thought, but it could also just be agreement with Ceejay to go in different directions for safety reasons.

Negative/things that I believe to be

scummy

:

- Early interaction with Ceejay feels weird. The question "why do you think I'm townie" makes me think there's some intent to establish self as townie quickly if his other read was correct too.

- Some fluff posts here and there that I kind of feel are thought to pad the conversation and feel like he's still there (like the two talking about the mafia roles in the layout, the agreement posts...), although he does have more substancial posts as well.

- A couple of posts in the vein of "I was going to do x, but I'm busy now/I'll do x tomorrow" that were not fulfilled. Everyone has a life an I can't expect them to prioritize this over real world stuff, but it also sort of feels like fluff posts... (I'll quote those if necessary, I'm just lazy to do so now).

- I kind of feel like Ceejay wanted to bus his partner because he had no other choice because of multiple people claiming SR on GWu, as I said before.

The first point refers to him asking his scum partner for reads on himself during RVS. The second point is that he posted a lot by quoting someone and saying "I agree" and nothing else, and also that he made 2 useless posts about the role layout (that I can find later if you want), and the third is what he's doing right now on this game as well.

[Maduisha]

Note that as scum, he didn't ride any wagon that ended in lynch, that's there too... not sure if it's useful.

[Maduisha]

I'm fine with this as well because I find him scummy, but I still think flipping Marashu would give us more information. My reasoning here:

Spoiler:

Mad, what do u think about possible flips? You said youd rather lynch gw than Mara. but what do u think about the possible results of those lynchs? mara flipping town, mara flipping scum, gw flipping town and gw flipping scum.
I think if mara flips town, that may be indicative that gw may be town too, but i cant rly sriously consider gws game if that was not the case, AT ALL. Im not too sure about what to think from a town flip from gw, since mara has not interacted with the game at all.

If Marashu is scum, I feel like GWu is scum because he's basically only appearing to defend Marashu and himself. And he keeps talking about the scumminess of Marashu that makes him nullread him, but still pushes the town narrative. If Marashu is town, then some of the more active people that tried to push for him from very early on might be looking a bit scummy here instead.

If GWu is scum, I don't really know who else to link with him other than Marashu himself. Maybe Clidd...? But I can't see a clear connection between the two, other than Clidd giving him a town lean early. He had some negative interactions with Datisi and myself, so you could pull from there if he flips town.

I really feel like there's less information for us if we lynch GWu instead of Marashu, so I'd call for a Marashu flip D1 even if I'm scumreading GWu more than him and I'd prefer his lynch. It's just instrumentally better to flip Marashu, I think.

While GWu fluffposts a good deal and disappears, he's more likely to bring us content to work with than Marashu, if you get what I mean.

It mostly is that if GWu flips green, I don't know what to think, because I TR Datisi. But I'm not good at reading associations yet, so I don't know. And it's still true that Marashu ignored Skitter's defense, and the fact that she herself delayed his lynch, but he continues to say she's scum.

[Maduisha]

Well, I don't know. I have suspected him for a while anyway, might as well trust my gut.

VOTE: GeneralWu

[Maduisha]

That you and I were the ones pushing him the most during the day, but I TR you. So if he flips green, I don't know where to look for scum.

[Maduisha]

i am also not that Good at associate reading and correct me if i'm wrong, but i feel like you're looking at associates the wrong way, i'd argue considering how little Mara has contributed that, from a purely information-lynch standpoint, Wu is a better flip.

also, why the "It mostly is that if GWu flips green, I don't know what to think, because I TR Datisi." part? what do you mean?

I guess you are right. I went to check the people saying Marashu was scummy early in the day, because I thought it'd be narrowing things a bit, but it turns out it's almost everyone.

[Maduisha]

I can see Skitter supporting the GWu train because of this:

also why are people voting marashu again what did he do

This whole thing feels kinda svs with marashu

@TRQ, @Word, @Clidd, what do you think?

There's also Marashu, but he scumreads Skitter and Clidd, so I don't know if I want to ask him.

[Maduisha]

That you and I were the ones pushing him the most during the day, but I TR you. So if he flips green, I don't know where to look for scum.

do you think that it's always scum hardpushing a lynch that later flips green? i get this is maybe wifom coming from me rn but

Not necessarily, that's true. For example, on my last game, one of them was basically lurking and jumped on wagons at the last moment, and GWu never participated in any lynch, on top of only accusing me when his partner was in danger. I think I got carried out there by Word's question and making associations, because there's not necessarily scum at the head of a wagon that ends in mislynch.

[Maduisha]

I think I should drop associations entirely during D1, because I'm confusing myself more than anything.

[Maduisha]

maduisha your gut is wrong and also you seem scummy

you also seem like a mafia taking advantage of the situation

I welcome your point of view, because I believe one should account for all possibilities. This is the second time you call me scummy, so please, now elaborate on why I am scummy.

vote for datisi

Nice. Now sustain why he's scummier than Marashu, and why this is a "good push", unlike lynching Marashu, please. Last time I checked, mafia was a team game and you get nowhere if people don't share your views.

Also, please address this too, since you said we should vote Datisi instead of Marashu and just left it at that. You can't have people join your wagon without bringing reasons why the scummy person is scummy, you know?

[Maduisha]

3 I think it's not really necessary to post stuff like that since I almost never do that

"Doing X thing is not necessary because I don't do it."

???

Do you re-read your messages before posting...?

[Maduisha]

And VT is the standard claim. Its nul as far as I know. Any other claim can be counterclaimed, from the point of view of a scum.

precisely why I think vt is the most believable though
since a mafia who's almost certain to be hanged would claim a power role or something to fish for prs

This is pretty wifom and that's why Clidd said it's still plausible to believe Marashu is scum. Or do you feel like it's impossible for mafia to realize claiming PR means claiming scum and they can play with people's mind by claiming VT?

In that game, he replied to people more than generate discussion himself. In part because he was scum, and also in part because another player was tunneling him hard almost from the moment he appeared. He posted stuff without substance (like redundant information about the setup), also constantly promised to come back later, or look at X person's ISO, and never delivered.

I'm not sure if I'm allowed to quote myself from that thread, but before I voted him and ended the game, I made a post about the things I found scummy or towny out of the two players in lylo with me, which I think summarizes it.

I feel like as scum in that game, he posted more wall-like posts than he is doing right now. But he's keeping those "I'll come back later" kind of posts now and I'm not sure anymore.

how do you know it was "because I was scum"
Also that is an incorrect assumption because I'm posting less this game because there's so many posts and it's impossible to reply to them all.

Ah, I'm sorry for that assumption, then. I brought that point early on, and you answered me with this:

From that 1987 game, I have played with GW and Clidd. I don't really know how to read Clidd yet. But GW was mafia in the game I played with him, and he posted lengthier posts, mostly replying to other people, with an interesting amount of fluff in them from time to time. For now I'm not seeing that behavior he had as scum back then, so I have a town lean on him.

I don't have reads/leans for anyone else as of yet, but I liked the Datisi-GW interaction.

oh fyi the reason I'm playing differently is just because I feel like it
This is not my usual town play

Actually I don't really have a "usual town play" anyways.

So, I thought it was fine to assume that what you said earlier in the game could be true, my apologies. I'll update my info, now the reason why you post differently is because we post too much, and not because you wanted to.

[Maduisha]

GeneralWu, you voted Marashu because you don't want to die, yet you keep avoiding to answer me. Please, tell us why Datisi and Maduisha are scummy scums that should be voted instead of you or Marashu. I can't understand how do you expect people to believe your SRs aren't garbage if you don't explain your reasoning and instead go on about how people are misunderstanding you because of meta. This is not a meta discussion that we are having, we're asking you to sustain claims that you had in this game, and you keep ignoring any posts that asks you to do so.

[Maduisha]

And no, I don't want your answer to be "I'm town and you're wrong, therefore you're scum".

i would say yes, but i might be tunnelled on a townie that's not bothering to read, not trying to debunk any arguments, that keeps repeating shit cases like a broken record, and who's probably set the world record at misreps per minute, but... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

yeah you are tunneling on a townie

Nice post, by the way.

[Maduisha]

maduisha

your gut is wrong and also you seem scummy

you also seem like a mafia taking advantage of the situation

This one was also really nice.

Please, give me the reasons why you think this is true.

[Maduisha]

Hello, Marashu. I'm sorry that you're busy with work and stuff, but can you maybe tell us what you think about this? Or why did you ignore these?

First, skitt seems to be posting a lot of unneccessary "I don't knows" (or other variants). Some of them make sense (like when she is saying she doesn't know what someone else is trying to say and is asking for clarification), but even ignoring some of the posts as we were coming out of RVS, there are still quite a few of these already (examples in spoiler tag):

this is a writing/playstyle quirk

I think this is exactly what skitt is doing, so it's interesting that she's calling TRQ out on it. I think her claim to be sitting back in this one could be a sign that she's willing to jump in where people make cases but be ready to back out so it doesn't look bad or gain town cred by appearing moderate and wanting to force out more discussion. As for her case on Dat, that brings us to my third point.

no, i'm sitting back because team mafia took a shit ton of energy out of me and i haven't like completely ~gotten back into mafia ~ yet

trust me, if i wanted to like effort and case people i can, and will. i just don't want to play like that right now
it has nothing to do with my alignment

As she stayed on the train she was pretty non-commital. To me it looked like Mena was applying the pressure while she was staying at arm's distance.

i wasn't being non-commital
that was exactly the reason why i wanted to vote datisi, because he was playing differently than i'd have expected from him, and i wanted to explore that
i wasn't staying at arm's distance, iirc i literally started the push

Fourth, like I addressed before (and kinda related to the above) was the way that skitt was interacting with Dat when the Dat push was happening. At the time I thought it was suspicious, but then I started to doubt myself. Now I'm feeling like I should trust my instincts - I think it's less likely that she was trying to keep from tunneling and more likely that she was trying to gain some early towncred.

i don't get it
what exactly is bothering you about how i was interacting with datisi
i pushed him p strong there
why would i back off there if i was scum?
how was i trying to gain some early towncred?

Plus:

Skitter tried to postpone your lynch to collect a claim, why didn't you mention that at any time ?

I see you're still pushing Skitter, so that's why I'm asking.

[Maduisha]

Aren't bah posts for after you're lynched...? Anyway, I think it's obvious that he has given up playing at all, because he's not answering anyone that asks him to sustain his reads. If you guys feel better about lynching Marashu, I'm open to change my vote to make it happen, but GWu isn't helping himself be credible here.

[Maduisha]

I was wondering if maybe he'd be more ready to answer us if I unvote him, since the pressure of the votes is having the opposite of the desired effect. At least I always thought votes would make people more likely to try to explain their reasoning, but that doesn't work with this person, apparently. Not sure if because he's young, or because he's rebellious, but maybe it might be worth it to try.

@GWu, are you more willing to talk if I unvote you, or have you given up from playing the game?

[Maduisha]

Actually...

UNVOTE: GeneralWu

There. No fake promises. Are you more willing to explain your reads now that you're not at L-2?

[Maduisha]

yo yo, 1 day

let's get some more votes on wu

clidd/mads/mara/skitt/trq where you at

I unvoted him just now, because it feels like he's trolling because he was at L-2 and saw it as a done thing, so I want to give him a chance to actually sustain his reads, since he was saying stuff like this:

well nobody's gonna take me seriously even if I give explanations longer than a single line

He hasn't even tried to explain himself and he's already given up, so I want to see if he'll actually try if he doesn't have as many votes on him.

[Maduisha]

The thing pinging me the worst about Marashu is the super delayed reaction to the Skitter stuff I pointed to him earlier, like he posted after Skitter answered his accusation and he basically ignored until later.

I think Clidd and Word want to vote Marashu for the same reason: he's going to be hard to deal with in lylo whether he's town or scum. Clidd hasn't placed his vote despite explaining his intentions, but it's there.

[Maduisha]

The only thing worrying me is that the bah post he did is maybe a goodbye post and he's not actually coming back, thus my effort being stupid.

[Maduisha]

There's not enough time for him to be prodded due to inactivity, because the day will end faster than that, so we can't know unless he shows up...

[Maduisha]

The thing pinging me the worst about Marashu is the super delayed reaction to the Skitter stuff I pointed to him earlier, like he posted after Skitter answered his accusation and he basically ignored until later.

what seems scummy about this to you?

That he wrote a Skitt accusation, then the accusation got addressed, and when Marashu got summoned to claim his role, he kept pushing Skitt as if her answer never existed. He never addressed her points, either, although he did address the fact that she delayed his lynch (but pretty late, too). And right when he unvotes Skitt, he starts pointing out how GWu is scummy, yet doesn't place a vote (Clidd has been doing the same, but I don't think we can judge Marashu's behavior and Clidd's the same way due to post history). GWu is not exactly displaying towny behavior, I get that because I was pushing him a lot myself, but why is Marashu addressing the whiteknighting only now? It happened several pages ago, and he posted from that moment until now, so I wonder.

[Maduisha]

Actually, since we don't know whether GWu will come back or not due to that last post being super strange, I'm going to move my vote to Marashu. If GWu doesn't appear, at least one of the people not in either wagon can hammer one of the suspects before the deadline arrives.

VOTE: Marashu

This is L-1.

I want to ask people not to hammer if GWu has any chance to show up, but that is up to your discretion, and I'm not opposed to hammering this slot.

[Maduisha]

Do you disagree on giving him a last chance to explain himself? I thought maybe unvoting him would get him off of the troll mood if he's town by showing him that the lynch is not set in stone.

[Maduisha]

Hm, alright. I thought about it in terms of pressure levels maybe changing his approach to the situation, since he seems a bit immature.

VOTE: GeneralWu

[Maduisha]

i have like no ability to do anything about myself now
best thing i can do is just wait till I flip and you guys can see that mafia is indeed amongst the people I suspected
btw I think {menalque, clidd} is the most likely scumteam

The thing town can do in this situation is telling us their reasoning about why the people you pointed out are scum. Even if you can't be here later, you can help the team by giving us your point of view.

For example, if you say "Menalque is scum, hang him after me", people will read you, but will probably shrug it, because it really doesn't drive any point, it's just an empty accusation.

If you said "Menalque is scum because he said Marashu is lock-scum if he hammers" and then you explain why this is a scum move on his part, and the reasoning makes sense (this means, no Datisi breadcrumbing style reasoning), then you have my attention. Simple as that.

(Sorry Menalque, I needed an example.)

[Maduisha]

In the last game you survived to lylo as scum, so it is false to say that you have no ability.

the situation rn is totally different from the other game tho
also I think menalque is maf because he's been sheeping ppl and posting one liners

Okay, we're advancing. Could you please, provide sheeping examples that can back your claim? Also, one liners are not inherently scummy. Marashu posts normal sized posts and everyone is reading him as scum.

[Maduisha]

In the last game you survived to lylo as scum, so it is false to say that you have no ability.

the situation rn is totally different from the other game tho
also I think menalque is maf because he's been sheeping ppl and posting one liners

Okay, we're advancing. Could you please, provide sheeping examples that can back your claim? Also, one liners are not inherently scummy. Marashu posts normal sized posts and everyone is reading him as scum.

sheeping people+jumping on wagons and telling people to join him even when he doesn't really provide any reasons.

But I want examples of the sheeping, not you to tell me again that he sheeped people. And he told people to join trains that were already cases people mostly agreed with the points of (Marashu, then you). If I already stated that I suspect Marashu, is it weird for someone to ask me to vote him?

[Maduisha]

Uh... the mason claim was real? Wow, okay. GWu being town surprised me, because he acted in such a strange fashion, and he didn't help himself much by not answering questions and posting meme-y fluff. That being said, I hope Menalque gets well soon, and welcome Malakittens!

VOTE: Marashu

You're the scummiest person around. Please, try to participate more than in day 1. I did not like how you ignored Skitter at the end of the last day.

[Maduisha]

Hello, Malakittens. Have you read up everything? Can you give us a bit of your reasoning to vote Datisi?

[Maduisha]

well it's concerning to me that mena decided to collapse the wagon on my top suspect to the guy i was saying wasn't scum and that you followed him
like idk how do you want me to view that sequence of events

like form my pov y'all made a dumb decision yesterday, which i called out at the time, and pointed out the indicators that y'all were on the wrong track, which got shot down

The reason why the train switch happened was because GWu was also looking fairly scummy with his behavior, and Marashu claimed VT instead of trying to fish for a PR by claiming one. Clidd said it's still plausible that scum would do that, and I agreed with that, however I could also see the logic behind Menalque's switch and I would have wanted to flip both, no matter the order.

What I'm trying to say is that I don't think it's too weird to have two suspects and consider the possibility of the first one not being guilty because he didn't try to be opportunistic.

[Maduisha]

The reason why the train switch happened was because GWu was also looking fairly scummy with his behavior, and Marashu claimed VT instead of trying to fish for a PR by claiming one. Clidd said it's still plausible that scum would do that, and I agreed with that, however I could also see the logic behind Menalque's switch and I would have wanted to flip both, no matter the order.

ok but from my pov mara is fairly scummy
the wagon collapsed
scum presumably had something to do with the collapsing wagon

so i'm looking for how and why that wagon broke to find scum
and mena's slot is my best bet

Maybe I'm overlooking something, but I don't think Menalque's slot is scum because of that. At least not for that reason. The reason I'm saying that is... he knew everyone SRs Marashu and we were going to flip Marashu D2 regardless even if he pushed GWu. If both Marashu and Menalque are scum, what does mafia gain out of such move? I don't think this move makes sense from scum!Menalque's point of view, to put the spotlight on himself when Marashu is going down the next day no matter what.

[Maduisha]

Okay, but if the partner goes down immediately after the move, how does it help their win condition? Their numbers are halved right after. I'm sorry, I think I'm missing something important.

[Maduisha]

I'm going to assume scum!Marashu and scum!Menalque for the following reflection:

So, like... scum!Menalque has some bad looks his way but nobody is scumreading him hard. His partner is most likely to get the rope D1, although there's a town player acting scummy, so he decides to push for the lynch of the townie to save his partner. Now his partner is doomed to be lynched D2

and

scum!Menalque has all eyes on him for derailing the lynch. So, he still loses his partner and also loses credibility. How does this benefit the mafia?

I get that the mafia gets to be whole during the first night, but is it really worth it? I don't know if his slot is scum, but certainly not because of what happened with GWu, I'd say. If Marashu is scum, I'd rule out Malakittens from PoE, even.

[Maduisha]

Wow, ok, the day's just starting and I'm already L-2.

I have a reason for thinking that I was wrong about skitt and that she is town. Also, Mena pivoting from town to town as scum doesn't make sense to me either so Mala is probably town as well. So that means the scum has to be in {clidd, Dat, Mad, word}.

I don't like how Mad jumped onto my wagon right away today. On D1 she jumped from Wu to me back to Wu, but then Mena was talking about how she was super town because of that. I know we can't ask him, but can anyone else explain how that action is town?

clidd/Mad and clidd/word make sense to me. so does Dat/Mad but less so. clidd/Dat doesn't make too much sense to me (clidd clearing Dat was based on Wu being scum, and with that pairing both know that Wu would be town). The dynamic between Dat/Mad on D1 and again today doesn't feel like they would be a team. Dat/word and Mad/word are possible - I don't remember much interaction there of note so I think I'd need to review that.

Yes, you are L-2 at the start of the day because one of the two main suspects from D1 is dead and he was town. You ignored Skitter's reasoning when she replied to you when you accused her, yet kept pushing for her. That combined with all the rest of your behavior (asking questions that you never follow up on, the fact that the questions were seemingly targeted at random, and posts made out of information instead of analysis) is what got you there. Why are you surprised?

On the topic of why I jumped between wagons, I voted GWu to pressure him to be more participative and actually explain his reads. He didn't, and your wagon was already a thing and I thought you were scummy as well, so I switched to yours under the belief that nobody except Datisi would support me on wanting to lynch GWu, as suspicious as he was. Then Menalque pointed out that maybe you not claiming a PR could mean you're not scum because you didn't try to fish for a role, and while I thought that was unlikely, I decided to not rule out that possibility and trust my gut that said GWu was scum.

Here's my thought process from voting you to voting GeneralWu:

Spoiler:

I don't buy the claim. He's just saying VT counting on the small chance of people overthinking the fact that he's not trying to fish for PRs before dying. Notice how he doesn't address Skitter's defense of his case on her, and when Clidd pointed out that Skitter delayed his lynch, he ignored the comment. I'd call for a hammer.

I'm also okay with pressuring GWu, because as I said before, I find him the scummiest, despite all the stuff Marashu did. Although I thought only Datisi was with me on that.

I'm fine with this as well because I find him scummy, but I still think flipping Marashu would give us more information. My reasoning here:

Mad, what do u think about possible flips? You said youd rather lynch gw than Mara. but what do u think about the possible results of those lynchs? mara flipping town, mara flipping scum, gw flipping town and gw flipping scum.
I think if mara flips town, that may be indicative that gw may be town too, but i cant rly sriously consider gws game if that was not the case, AT ALL. Im not too sure about what to think from a town flip from gw, since mara has not interacted with the game at all.

If Marashu is scum, I feel like GWu is scum because he's basically only appearing to defend Marashu and himself. And he keeps talking about the scumminess of Marashu that makes him nullread him, but still pushes the town narrative. If Marashu is town, then some of the more active people that tried to push for him from very early on might be looking a bit scummy here instead.

If GWu is scum, I don't really know who else to link with him other than Marashu himself. Maybe Clidd...? But I can't see a clear connection between the two, other than Clidd giving him a town lean early. He had some negative interactions with Datisi and myself, so you could pull from there if he flips town.

I really feel like there's less information for us if we lynch GWu instead of Marashu, so I'd call for a Marashu flip D1 even if I'm scumreading GWu more than him and I'd prefer his lynch. It's just instrumentally better to flip Marashu, I think.

While GWu fluffposts a good deal and disappears, he's more likely to bring us content to work with than Marashu, if you get what I mean.

It mostly is that if GWu flips green, I don't know what to think, because I TR Datisi. But I'm not good at reading associations yet, so I don't know. And it's still true that Marashu ignored Skitter's defense, and the fact that she herself delayed his lynch, but he continues to say she's scum.

Well, I don't know. I have suspected him for a while anyway, might as well trust my gut.

VOTE: GeneralWu

[Maduisha]

She was super stubborn about Wu and wouldn't change her vote even as the deadline approached (but enough people were ready to hammer that she probably didn't need to).

That's NAI.

From that I see she's either super convinced that I'm mafia

This is it.

or wanted to keep her distance from Wu (as skitt!scum). That would be weird, though, because when I would flip town she would not have kept her distance at all.

You're killing your own assumption here, so that was word fluff to make your reasoning look reinforced.

Might make sense with skitt/Mena(Mala) if they're each pushing their own wagons hard, but I see that as unlikely.

This is not impossible, although it's unlikely.

As I see it, you're saying that:

- If Skitter is town= she ("mistakenly") thinks you're scum.
- If Skitter is scum= her behavior doesn't make sense unless she's working with Menalque/Malakittens, for reasons you've pointed yourself.

For a post about defending Skitter, it sure bases her innocence in the fact that you're town quite a bit. Might we test your theory by flipping you first?

[Maduisha]

For a post about defending Skitter, it sure bases her innocence in the fact that you're town quite a bit.

is this meant as a bad thing?

Not inherently, but as I see it, this is scum trying to tie his alignment to someone else's so we might start to think of Skitter/Marashu as a pack in terms of alignment. I said before already that we can gain a TR on Malakittens too if Marashu flips red, so I think it's a good choice despite what he's saying about it being weak.

[Maduisha]

it's, in some scenarios, much better to try to divert the lynch off of your partner than to just let it be, especially if you don't think you'll get flak for it later on

Okay, but do you actually think scum!Menalque does this? I mean expecting to not get the spotlight right after doing that while playing with people that know how he plays and were watching him carefully already. I really don't think him playing as scum would ignore the fact that you were already paranoid of him, at the very least.

I've been thinking.. Statistically speaking, is it possible that all three SE players are town ?

I believe that in practically every game I played there was at least 1 scum SE, but I didn't see it in the forum rules as something mandatory.

There's no such rule, no. All combinations are possible.

[Maduisha]

Hello, Malakittens. I don't know if you have more reasons to vote Datisi other than the post you quoted, but I would like to understand what's scummy about it. You said it's because it feels like he's fishing for information, but note that it was RVS and interacting with the first posts is essential to get the game moving, and hers was the one standing out the most. She even posted the original game thread herself, so I feel like she wanted such connection, even.

As you can see, Marashu has 2 votes right after the start of the day, and Clidd has a mental vote on him too (to not put him at L-1, I presume). I don't know if you think he's more towny or scummy because you haven't read everything yet, but as of your two last posts, I feel like you're getting a towny vibe from him. I don't know if you'll end up catching up or deciding not to, but I would like for you to read his ISO at least (29 posts, it's not much). That way, even if you don't want to vote him, you'll be on the same page as us when he's lynched, because you'll see the scummy behavior in his posts.

Those would be:

- He took the mason claim seriously right away.

- He constantly addressed (seemingly) random people with generic questions, then disappeared. When he came back later, he repeated the process. This coupled with his scarce activity totally pings us like a scum player trying to stay relevant.

- He accused Skitter with a post full of reasons why he suspects her, but when she addressed all of his points one by one, he didn't address her post at all and only backed down from the accusation later, still not commenting her answer at all. It feels like he wanted to gain time (he made the post when he had a lot of people voting him) and distract the attention away from him. Once the attention dispersed and we started pushing GWu, he discarded the accusation.

- Information instead of analysis. His posts often contain this.

I'm not asking you to change your vote, but I would like for you to understand the situation at hand as best as possible.

[Maduisha]

Also, Mena pivoting from town to town as scum doesn't make sense to me either so Mala is probably town as well.

Also, I noticed before that he used his own alignment to base his read on Skitter, but I didn't notice he did the same thing with the Menalque/Malakittens slot. I'm not saying this is inherently scummy, but it seems that he's basing all his town reads on his own town status instead of having a formed opinion about the player's behavior. I don't know if anyone is in this with me, but I'm not liking it much.

[Maduisha]

Right now I’m less inclined to vote Mara over Datisi. I’m prob not going to move my vote as of yet unless something more appealing happens. It’s just the motives for the fishing. It just didn’t feel ~natural~.

What about it is unnatural? She posted the past game to get a reaction, surely...

Like, I can't see it as fishing for information, because TRQ created the situation to have the game move out of RVS. Surely she wanted people to interact with it, and Datisi did exactly that. I try to put myself on the shoes of scum!Datisi that knows she's fishing for reactions, and I can't see the question getting answered in a way that gives him an advantage, so I don't see why would scum do that.

[Maduisha]

Also, Word, this is out of topic and I hope you won't get offended by it, but please use more spaces between your paragraphs... when I read your posts, I see that you have a point you want to drive home, but the structure of the message comes off as a gigantic block of text and it's harder for me to digest the information in it.

I would appreciate it greatly if you tried to separate in paragraphs, but I'll understand if it's your writing style and choose to disregard this. It's just a suggestion.

[Maduisha]

Anybody else having issues with loading times on the forum?

Me too, but at least today it's just some delay. Yesterday I had trouble to connect to the forum at all.

[Maduisha]

Clidd, I have two problems with your Marashu read. The first one would be what Skitter already pointed out: nothing impedes a scum player from being busy irl and post on a fixed schedule. The fact that he didn't give up on the game when he was accused isn't AI, in my opinion.

The second would be that you seem to be taking for granted that the mafia knew TRQ was a mason and building your reasoning to profile the culprit based on that. However, it could very well not be the case. Let's not forget that TRQ had people town read her for the crumbing theory being too weird to come from scum, that could be very well the reason why she's dead.

While exploring other options is fine with me, I don't want to let go of Marashu if these possibilities are still plausible. Especially not because the volume of his post history is definitely not the only reason why he's scummy.

[Maduisha]

@Mad what are your thoughts on word right now? He only has about 20 or so more posts than me right now, and a bunch of those are EBWOP, so it shouldn't take too long to review.

That remark of "he only has 20 posts more than me" feels like you're trying to paint it like the accusations on you are entirely because of post volume, which is clearly not the case.

Anyway, I already said before that I feel a bit of a towny vibe from his posts. I don't have a strong read on his slot, but I don't feel like his posts have a scummy mindset. He tries to bring to the table everything that is in his mind, which is good (I find it easier to understand people who post in a way you can understand their thought process).

My most disliked post of his would be this one:

Now, mason has become a VT with a different name. That means the only possible use for that role is to claim and counterclaim effectively, since mafia knows who every town is. I suggest, instead of going straight to a lynch on mar, to make a list of possible suspects due to the recent events. If there is a mason in those suspects, we can immediatly rule him out of the list with his claim. If mar claims though, we lynch him, for possible fishing for a counterclaim, wich would inutilize the strategy.
I believe we dont rly want to lynch mar today. We may always lynch him tomorrow. Instead, lets search for possible suspects outside that, weighting the possibility of him being town; we can always lynch him tomorrow.

Because he forgot you had already claimed VT, but that's not a bid deal, I think. The part about "looking for suspects and if there's a mason we rule them out" could look like role-fishy...? But he posted right after to say "let's not look for masons today", so I guess that's not his intention. So I'm confused by what he meant about that in 1276. Anyway, the part of that fragment that bothers me is this:

I believe we dont rly want to lynch mar today. We may always lynch him tomorrow. Instead, lets search for possible suspects outside that, weighting the possibility of him being town; we can always lynch him tomorrow.

Like, I'm not against looking for partners and other possible scummy vibes in different people, but why is "let's not lynch the main SR today, we can always do it tomorrow" a logical conclusion? Unless I'm mistaking what "today" means, because I understood it as D2, but he might also meant "today" as in the current day. He later voted for you, so I'm not sure what's going on here.

That's all, otherwisely I feel like his posts are either NAI or somewhat towny. I wish he didn't post in walls of text without spaces, though. It makes it harder to follow.

[Maduisha]

The question would be: why Scum!Marashu wouldn't give up the pressure of playing scum ? wouldn't it be more natural for him to gradually lose interest until he was lynched without defense ? why when he got L-1 he didn't try to self-hammer to avoid associations with his partner, keeping in mind that most players had his slot as the main option of the day ? wouldn't it be easier to be lynched, finish his participation in the game and try to focus on other leisure activities that take less time and are easier to manage ? why insist on something that is slightly hindering his sleep hours? well, these are the types of questions that lead me to build this emotional read and consider a potential AI factor in this interpretation of the facts.

Hm, I feel like mafia-sided players are less likely to give up, but maybe I'm wrong. My idea is that the sense of "pertaining to a team" is a strong motivator for a person not to give up on an activity. If there's any hope to save the situation and move on, you take it because you want what is best for the team. This is emphasized by the presence of direct team communication, which is something that the town team lacks. Town does not know who is town, so when a townie is cornered, I'd say they might be more likely to say "fine, whatever" and move onto something different. Just look at what happened to GeneralWu. We insisted to him that we wanted his side of the story, but he had already given up in his mind. There was no sense of teamwork in his mindset, he was thinking "oh well, they are wrong and I couldn't do anything about it, I'll just meme and be over with it." A scum has a partner they can talk to at any time, and over the course of days, surely a bond is made, and they will at the very least, do their best to prevent the loss for their partner.

While lynching oneself to cut any possible extra information being given to town is a tool I'm aware of because Ceejay used it against town in my first game, I think clinging to life by claiming vanilla townie and hoping for town to be paranoid of being wrong is also a valid strategy. After all, people will assume a scum that is hopeless about their situation will try to rolefish before falling, and that's the exact kind of mindgame we ought to expect from this social game, isn't it?

[Maduisha]

2. I will be more objective in the answer: let's consider that I am wrong, and my theory of a Scum!SE is not correct. This would imply suspicion about non-SE players, like you and Word. Now trying to do a PoE on this, considering you town and Marashu scum, the combination would be Scum!Marashu + Scum!Word. Does this pair make sense to you ? Word voted for Marashu on day 1 (1233) and put him on L-1 today (1361), while Marashu voted for him too (1366).

You are excluding me (because of TR) and yourself (because you are you). I understand where you come from, but I don't want to discard you for now. While you are a newbie slot, you also have some experience, and also are a person that usually posts in-depth analysis that sway people to townread you. I do believe you capable of directing a newbie scum. I am also paranoid of pocketing from you because we played together before, and you TR me very quickly in this game. So while I don't see scum indicative content in your posts, I am wary of you. I hope this feels reasonable for you.

I don't want to discard the SE theory so easily either, but please understand that I want to consider all possibilities. That includes Word and you, yes.

[Maduisha]

I am very bad at associations and looking for pairs. The main counter-association I had was Marashu-Menalque/Malakittens, because I think if both were scum, Menalque's move was unnecessarily suicidal. That being said, Skitter brought to my attention that it is entirely possible for scum to derail a lynch of their partner even if they get all the attention the next day, because it can be seen as "too scummy to be scum" (or wifom?) and help them let it slide.

But I confess that even with that point from Skitter, I have the strong gut feeling that Malakitten's slot is town because of that play from Menalque.

[Maduisha]

I am very bad at associations and looking for pairs. The main counter-association I had was Marashu-Menalque/Malakittens, because I think if both were scum, Menalque's move was unnecessarily suicidal. That being said, Skitter brought to my attention that it is entirely possible for scum to derail a lynch of their partner even if they get all the attention the next day, because it can be seen as "too scummy to be scum" (or wifom?) and help them let it slide.

But I confess that even with that point from Skitter, I have the strong gut feeling that Malakitten's slot is town because of that play from Menalque.

...I actually didnt consider that possibility (Mara-Men/Mala not being a thing bc it would be too obvious). I havent rly thought on any partners besides. What would make sense here for u? Dats/clidd?

I just said that I am bad at seeing partners and associations, I'm sorry. I don't know who's Marashu's partner, but I consider essentially everyone except Datisi (his behavior feels town to me from the beginning) and Malakittens (because of what I already explained). Yes, it's the broadest pool you'll find, but I have to admit that I am clueless at the moment.

[Maduisha]

I just said that I am bad at seeing partners and associations, I'm sorry. I don't know who's Marashu's partner, but I consider essentially everyone except Datisi (his behavior feels town to me from the beginning) and Malakittens (because of what I already explained). Yes, it's the broadest pool you'll find, but I have to admit that I am clueless at the moment.

Thats ok. Why exactly do u tr dats then?

Essentially this that I proposed early on during the game:

I'm reading Datisi as town after all this. My reasons are that he's not feeling pressured to make new reads even though he was accused of the fact that he's not pushing anyone at all being scummy in him. Not reacting is also a reaction, if that makes sense. He's also keeping the options open, but not in a fence-sitting way, since he has expressed two people he firmly believes as town and excluded them from the equation to further narrow the PoE.

And the anger thing, as I said in my reply to TRQ, I think is something scum would have breathed deeply and tried to keep hidden if it puts them further into SR territory for being out of character for their town selves.

Summarized: scum cares about appearances. Datisi is not acting in a way that indicates he values how he appears, or show desire of self preservation. Examples would be:

- He was faced with accusations about his behavior being different from his town meta and he did not try to alter it to fix that perception, nor rush reads to appear more towny.

- He did not hide is anger, which triggered the people that were seeing him as scummy to further read him as scum "because Datisi doesn't usually react like that." Again, scum cares about appearances and he did not care to dig his hole deeper.

- He does what he says. He established that he trusts Menalque and that he is inclined to sheep him. He did not care that sheeping people might look scummy later, he just put his trust on his TR, and when he said "vote GWu", he just did exactly that. Of course, he had his own reasons to suspect GWu, but the act of moving the vote was the act of trust in itself, because he wanted to flip both slots regardless at that moment.

That is all. I am leaving for the night now, because it is very late where I live, but the forum has been refusing to load appropriately so that I could finish this earlier and go to bed.

[Maduisha]

Also going back i feel like mena tr me way too easily

It is a mystery that he hard pushed on a counter-wagon while being aware that

Town!Skitter

would draw associations

Marashu + Menalque

after

GW

flips town. Which would be inconsistent with

Scum!Menalque

trying to gain Skitter's trust with a TR early.

This is essentially what I've been trying to say. I feel like Marashu has high odds of being scum, but while Menalque could have tried to play with expectations if he's scum, I think his behavior makes no sense unless he's town. Scum counting on wifom to get away with saving their partner is plausible in isolation but... in a game he's playing with people that know his slot? He could not possibly expect this suspicion not to happen. It feels like burying himself alive.

It is still possible, but my gut says his slot is town and that's the explanation behind his actions.

[Maduisha]

Exactly. And since I feel like flipping one gives us a confirmation on the other, that's why I'm still adamant about lynching Marashu. He has the most scum-indicative content of the two, so he's the safest bet.

I could also be wrong and them being 2 towns or 2 scums, it's not impossible. I just feel like it's highly unlikely, so I'm not accounting for it.

[Maduisha]

Madu, if we were to lynch Mara today, and Mara flipped green, what would your thoughts be on the Menalque slot?

That would mean both trains in D1 were on town, which would confuse me a lot, since that would mean scum changed wagons from a perfectly fine train on town!Marashu while they could have "saved" the town!Gwu flip for the next day, since people had been stating they wanted to flip both for being scummy, anyway. I see no motivation for scum to change wagons if it's not to save Marashu, so this is what I think could have happened D1

if Marashu is town

:

a) Scum was okay with lynching

Marashu

, but

Menalque

diverted his lynch, and they decided to take the opportunity to frame Menalque later when Gwu flipped green, thus potentially linning up the lynch of 3 towns.

b) Scum had preference to get Gwu lynched because

Marashu

is more absent in the thread than he was, and they wanted to get rid of the most talkative of them two. I think this possibility is unlikely because it's not worth the risk to try to change the train from town to town victim, but it's not impossible. This would be open to a scum!Menalque slot.

I'm trying to see more motivations for scum!Menalque to change trains between two towns, and that's the only thing that comes to mind. If Marashu does indeed flip town, then I'll have a smaller conviction that his slot is innocent, but I wouldn't be too sold on their scumminess either. I think I might be biased because I can't see Marashu as anything other than scum, but I tried my best to reason the possibilities if he isn't.

[Maduisha]

That is also true. Maybe scum was scared of Skitter getting a stronger town read on Gwu and they wanted to get rid of him, prioritizing him over town!Marashu.

[Maduisha]

I'm not moving my vote, so you can count on that for when the end of deadline comes.

They're both very busy with work, so there's no helping it, waiting is the best we can do.

[Maduisha]

My reasoning may be strange, but I feel that if Mala claims VT, she is automatically scum, so I would like to press her slot.

Why? We're in a mason setup, there are enough Vanilla Townies for it to be true. Also... are we sure we want Malakittens to claim? She could be the other mason and have shot ourselves in the foot by revealing them before lylo. I agree she needs to claim if she's actually going to get lynched (I doubt that'll come, but eh), but not just randomly. I might be biased because I really am only seeing

Marashu

-

Malakittens

, but this sounds like a bad idea.

[Maduisha]

Word and I: "Please, let's not make people claim so we can try to preserve the mason for lylo."

Clidd:

Spoiler:

I really needed to force this today because if you died without revealing what was in the PT of the masons, I would lose valuable information about which reads Menalque and TRQ had before they left the game. Having you here, talking to me is fantastic and maybe I wouldn't have had the chance if I had ignored the fact that I suspected you were a mason. If you claimed VT, however, you would be lock-scum.

I think you're overestimating the value of the contents of the mason PT vs the value of a living mason D3. I hope you do understand that masons gain power the smaller the player group is, and you just sentenced Malakittens in exchange for some "information" that could very well be wrong, because TRQ and Menalque are not infallible. A confirmed town in a scenario with reduced number of players is a lot more powerful than some speculation, at least in my mind.

As for the "selfish reason" to corner her until she claimed... sigh... that self preservation is scummy and I would call you on it if it were not because I saw you say the same in Newbie 1987 in which you were town. Which indicates you actually value your presence in the game over a mechanical tool to achieve victory as is a confirmed town. I won't call you scum for it because I know... I'm just disappointed that you did that a second time.

[Maduisha]

Actually, I'm getting a bit paranoid about if this exact behavior is a replica of when you wanted to out OldMapleNostalgia as the mason in that game for the exact same reasons, trying to play with my expectations of your alignment in this game.

I'm not interested in voting you as of D2 because my focus is to bring down Marashu once and for all, and the end of the deadline for D2 is coming closer, so I don't want to disperse attention from his slot. But damn if I don't hope you're scum this game solely because I feel this move is so anti-town that it has to be a gambit to get away with securing the mason kill, and getting me to townread you...

[Maduisha]

I was expecting this gif in return, but ok.

Spoiler:

Apologies, I fell asleep.

Also now that I had some rest please never ever out a Mason because you want to live again. I think that even gets close to the line of gamethrowing. If you're town.

The funny part is that the last time he tried to do that in my first game, the mafia killed him instead of the mason for reasons I don't understand, anyway. I wonder if he tried again in hopes to actually live to D3, or because he's trying to pocket me by doing the same thing again.

[Maduisha]

He legit outted the second mason?

Yes, he did. The first mason was killed N1 and he pressured the second one to out themselves D2 until they did. Clidd was town in that game, here:

Spoiler:

Now, changing the subject: who is the second

mason

among us ?

72offsuit
Maduisha
GeneralWu
OldMapleNostalgia
ceejayvinoya (SE)
JacksonVirgo (SE)

At this point, the chance of fake claims has passed. There is no point in continuing to keep your identity hidden.

We shouldn't get them to claim, it'd be +ev to keep them hidden

You understand that he can be killed during the night, correct ? it would be interesting to claim now, while this scenario has not occurred. Considering that they have no night action, the effectiveness of the role with the dead partner is null. Now, with the revelation, it would help PoE by dropping it from the lynch pool for today.

And of course, with the mason revealed, I will gain +1 day (because I suspect I'm next on the murder list tonight).

I mean, if the mason comes out now, and it's me who dies due to the vote, the mafia can murder them at night after knowing their confirmation so that you guys are back to square 1 as to who is innocent the next day. He is better off not saying who he is.

Incorrect. I am probably dying tonight, so i need someone to die in my place. If they didn't kill me, mason lives and leads tomorrow. In both ways we gain something.

Hum, It would be advantageous for me to survive, even if I am suspicious. I believe that I can collaborate to solve this game if I reach the 3rd day.

And I still insist that the mason declare himself, if possible. I feel the scenario of lylo approaching with this current discussion.

That lylo situation will certainly come. And that's when the mason is the most valuable, not right now.

That being said, I'm going to sleep.

'' And that's when the mason is the most valuable ''

Wrong, mafia will cc mason. Town will be forced to lynch between 2 players. 50% of losing lylo and 50% of winning, instead of 70% or more with Clidd's reads.

He put a lot of emphasis in "I don't want to die, I need a meat shield because I am essential" like in this game, so that's why I'm paranoid right now. This is either town!Clidd repeating that play, or scum!Clidd emulating it to catch me off-guard and get away with what he did to Mala. I don't know what to think anymore.

[Maduisha]

Clidd, I want to insist that being a good player, or above average player, or whatever you want to call it is not a guarantee of success. What if Menalque's reads are all wrong and the content of the mason PT is actually worthless? It's not impossible. Then we are left with the other power of the mason role: the ability of clear oneself as town when needed. As the game advances, the amount of people playing is reduced, and if the remaining mason is still hidden, they can reveal themselves and impact the outcome of the game.

Now that that possibility is gone, we are left with questionable reads and the "Clidd seal of approval" of those reads, because you find Menalque to be a good enough player for it to be a good tradeoff. Do you understand that you took a decision that impacts all the players all by yourself? Even when two team mates that you trust asked you to please not do it?

How do we know Menalque's reads in that PT are correct or useful? How do we know you are not scum? How was your move beneficial to town? We have lost a tool for lylo, all in exchange for more uncertain elements.

[Maduisha]

Actually, I'm getting a bit paranoid about if this exact behavior is a replica of when you wanted to out OldMapleNostalgia as the mason in that game for the exact same reasons, trying to play with my expectations of your alignment in this game.

I'm not interested in voting you as of D2 because my focus is to bring down Marashu once and for all, and the end of the deadline for D2 is coming closer, so I don't want to disperse attention from his slot. But damn if I don't hope you're scum this game solely because I feel this move is so anti-town that it has to be a gambit to get away with securing the mason kill, and getting me to townread you...

I feel that you are always so paranoid about my game as town, that when I go scum I will know exactly the triggers that arouse suspicion in your read about me (and avoid them).

Good for your future scum winrate against me, I guess. Congratulations...?

[Maduisha]

Clidd, I just want to bring your attention to one point:

You traded the certainity of a cleared slot for the contents of a PT from a player that replaced out during night 1. A player that can't react to anything that happened since GeneralWu's flip. A player that cannot express concern over other slots anymore, or give guidance with new reads.

You traded a tool for lylo for the thoughts of someone frozen in night 1

.

Do you see why we said it was a bad idea, or am I expressing myself poorly? I really want you to understand why it sounds anti-town and crazy from our perspective.

[Maduisha]

Strategic use of certainity vs betting on a horse.

Tell me why you picked the horse.

I really don't know how to put it anymore. I just want to know why are you so eager to disregard masons as useless as soon as one of them dies.

[Maduisha]

Nature, that's how I play. It is not only in games with you that I took risky instances.

Do you want me to quote the games here ?

It's not necessary. Risky choices are a necessity in this game, I get that.

All I'm saying is, usually people value reliability for a reason. I understand taking risks when necessary. I don't understand being given a reliable tool and trading it for another one with an unknown chance of success.

[Maduisha]

Honestly, I think I should give it up. I'm getting a headache, and I think I just can't reach you with my concern at all.

I guess what's done is done and the only thing I will get from going on with this topic is getting frustrated.

[Maduisha]

Yes, I understand. I learned from my stupidity.

[Maduisha]

Alright, I'm going to sleep. I take it that we're not hammering Marashu until Skitter comes back from VLA and gives us her input.

[Maduisha]

Well, that was unsurprising. I'm at a loss as to where to head this now, other than I really don't like that Clidd sold Malakittens the way he did.

Marashu was scum and pretty much everyone pushed to lynch him at some point, right? What associations can we gather from his weird behavior?

[Maduisha]

Alright, no votes for now. What are your reasons to vote each other?

[Maduisha]

Madu, do you think the last scum is between me and skit?

I trust you, so that's why I'm interested in why does Skitter want to vote you even though she was gone for a long while and came back just when Clidd yeeted our remaining mason out the window to "save" himself. Either I was too quick to TR you, or Skitter doesn't see anything weird with Clidd's move.

And at the same time, as much as I think that move from Clidd was anti-town, the rest of his play up until now seemed town to me, so aside from him switching positions regarding Marashu, I'm inclined to believe he's town too...

Which leaves me Datisi, Word, Skitter... I think the last scum is there, yes.

[Maduisha]

Why do you trust datisi?

If you don't mind, I'll refer to the posts in which I explained my reasoning to Word when he asked me about it:

Spoiler:

I just said that I am bad at seeing partners and associations, I'm sorry. I don't know who's Marashu's partner, but I consider essentially everyone except Datisi (his behavior feels town to me from the beginning) and Malakittens (because of what I already explained). Yes, it's the broadest pool you'll find, but I have to admit that I am clueless at the moment.

Thats ok. Why exactly do u tr dats then?

Essentially this that I proposed early on during the game:

I'm reading Datisi as town after all this. My reasons are that he's not feeling pressured to make new reads even though he was accused of the fact that he's not pushing anyone at all being scummy in him. Not reacting is also a reaction, if that makes sense. He's also keeping the options open, but not in a fence-sitting way, since he has expressed two people he firmly believes as town and excluded them from the equation to further narrow the PoE.

And the anger thing, as I said in my reply to TRQ, I think is something scum would have breathed deeply and tried to keep hidden if it puts them further into SR territory for being out of character for their town selves.

Summarized: scum cares about appearances. Datisi is not acting in a way that indicates he values how he appears, or show desire of self preservation. Examples would be:

- He was faced with accusations about his behavior being different from his town meta and he did not try to alter it to fix that perception, nor rush reads to appear more towny.

- He did not hide is anger, which triggered the people that were seeing him as scummy to further read him as scum "because Datisi doesn't usually react like that." Again, scum cares about appearances and he did not care to dig his hole deeper.

- He does what he says. He established that he trusts Menalque and that he is inclined to sheep him. He did not care that sheeping people might look scummy later, he just put his trust on his TR, and when he said "vote GWu", he just did exactly that. Of course, he had his own reasons to suspect GWu, but the act of moving the vote was the act of trust in itself, because he wanted to flip both slots regardless at that moment.

That is all. I am leaving for the night now, because it is very late where I live, but the forum has been refusing to load appropriately so that I could finish this earlier and go to bed.

[Maduisha]

Im quite surprised nobody got suspicious of him.

I did after he forced Malakittens to claim. But right now I feel that I was being frustrated because I personally think that's a bad play if he's town.

[Maduisha]

When I get home, I intend to close this case. We will win the game today.

Regarding this... please, don't try to rush it. I hope you mean "today" as in D3 and not as in... you want to force a lynch in the next 24h.

[Maduisha]

To expand on my read on mara and datisi:
Every interaction they had was a simple interation. They did interact during D1, but the objectives were clear and the development was few. Now, mara being mara that is no surprise with everyone and all; but the interactions wouldnt rule out a partnership.

Then, you have posts like 450, 618, 886 (with the added bonus of 872) and 1216, on day 1, all of wich deal with dat but in an indirect way, unanimously defending him in some way or another (mostly from skitter, but from trq too) or inquiring about him in the last post on clidd.

Then we have the introduction of Day 2, where he began giving this 180 turn; his vision in day 1, represented by 1061 and 1068, shifted radically on 1264, and even though datisi was nominally present on the list, he didnt make sense with everyone at the time. This is also the last time we hear about him on Day 2, except for a brief but important interaction on 1411.

On top of that, it seems to me mara liked to play with wifoms, specially on day 2; his change of attitude regarding skitter, clidd and me, even mad at some point are akin to trying to someone shining light in some direction, trying to hide the other. This is specially notorious with clidd and me at his last post.

This is all from an ISO, so I may have lost something there.
I havent rly analysed datisi on detail yet. The only notorious thing I have now is, mara was his first vote (hey, that's statistically relevant at least)


Now, on the case of clidd with mara, it is kind of self explanatory by itself. clidd had a weird attitude with mara the whole day 2, and it didnt exactly began with the mason thing, but with his reanalysis of him, wich would have potentially steered the whole town in another unfortunate direction. On top of that, we have the mason thin, wich as Ive explained before, had means, motivation and background to do as scum. He also pointed towards the SE slots on Day 1 and 2. In his defence is his first analysis on Mara, wich later manifested on an intention to lynch; it wouldnt make a lot of sense on day 1, but in this context it is more plausible of a bus, cause it came when the wagon was already formed.

What I get from this is that Marashu tried to play with expectations before his lynch and basically tried to associate himself with everyone, correct? And also, I remember he pushed Skitter all D1 for weak reasons, until the end of it when we switched to GWu and he suddenly said Skitter isn't that suspicious. We pointed out at the time that it felt fake, but I don't know if it felt like that because he can't act, or because he was deliberately trying for us to associate him with Skitter once he flipped later on...

The part about Clidd is partially what made me paranoid in my last posts before N2, because not only did he make an anti-town play, he found Marashu scummy and was content with his lynch D1, then switched to defense D2 after making an analysis on him, then voted him only when Malakittens cleared herself as mason. It fueled my paranoia quite a bit, but like... the rest of his posts felt town to me. It certainly is a possibility, but I think it's unlikely. I have to ask myself why would scum!Clidd make a huge effort to townread his partner if he isn't going to be able to convince others not to vote him. I mean, unless he actually believed he could, but I don't think so.

[Maduisha]

As for Marashu's mentions of Datisi... I think he used him as a tangent to keep talking about how Skitter is scum because she tunneled Datisi. I don't feel like he was trying to defend Datisi or something.

[Maduisha]

I mean, from the ones mentioned:

450:

Spoiler:

i think i'm going to ignore pressure as best as i can

Dat's explosion aside, I find skitt's interaction around this post interesting. Skitt asks whether or not to apply pressure, then asks if Dat needs a chance to towntell, then puts on pressure while Dat is exploding, then unvotes to remove pressure.

@clidd: last I saw you had a townlean on Wu. Why are you suddenly cautious about him specifically?

@trq: why is your entire case on dat is based on joke votes and other games? Especially after you pushed to move away from joke votes. Has anything else from this game stood out?

He's using Datisi to talk bad about Skitter.

618:

Spoiler:

Dat's explosion aside, I find skitt's interaction around this post interesting. Skitt asks whether or not to apply pressure, then asks if Dat needs a chance to towntell, then puts on pressure while Dat is exploding, then unvotes to remove pressure.

ok, and what do you take away from this?
does it affect ur read on me?

At the time I posted that, my take-away from that was that you wanted to put some pressure but not so much that, if Dat is town and you are scum, you would be able to say that you weren't pushing that hard. But now that I've re-read it, I can kinda see that you might have just been easing off so you aren't tunneling. I don't want to TL you yet (there is something I noticed that I want to see if it continues), but I'm not reading you as scummy as I was when I posted that.

I keep asking questions of clidd because I'm worried that there's not enough suspicion or discussion about him. He obviously is putting together his thoughts pretty carefully (which isn't necessarily a scumtell, but makes it hard to spot a scumtell). I'm worried that he might be using previous game experience to pocket Mad (595 specifically). I don't see Wu's line of reasoning as being a "weird degree of paranoia" - Wu was even defending you in 204 and I don't think you would miss that.

Right now I am town reading Mad and Wu. I feel like Wu is making plays that are in line with someone who doesn't know the answers but is trying to reason them out. If clidd is mafia then I'm pretty sure that Wu is not (if you two are and that's why Wu was defending clidd and why clidd it townleaning while maintaining a bit of distance, well played). As for Mad, I like the way she is following up with things going on to make sure they don't slip by.

I was town reading TRQ at first, but I'm starting to have doubts. I feel like TRQ might be tunneling Dat.

I don't know if TRQ is telling the truth, but I do think that TRQ is serious. I don't know why any other townie would claim that, and it's stupid (but welcome) for mafia to claim that. Only the other mason (and probably the mafia) would know for sure if TRQ is telling the truth,

and roughly as many people would know if TRQ is lying.

generalwu's post made me notice this again. notably absent from this list of people who would know the truth of my claim if i was serious is any other pr that is in the game.

Do you think I was trying to fish out PRs? One or two players, and probably the mafia, would know for sure if you are lying. I now see that it was a meme post, but I meant what I said at the time. Not having read the full game you posted and only having read the first post, I thought it was some sort of weird new meta, hence why I said I didn't like it. Anyway, I made a mistake, it made me look scummy, but if my mistake got the game moving, I'm ok with getting my hands dirty (though I'd prefer if we could use that to lynch mafia tonight)

Here I'd say he's doing a bit of both. Both trying to push the idea that Datisi is town and Skitter is scum. Also saying TRQ is tunneling Datisi, so this might be seen as defending him, maybe...?

886 breaks for some reason when I try to quote it whole in spoiler tags, so I'll quote it in pieces:

Spoiler:

First, skitt seems to be posting a lot of unneccessary "I don't knows" (or other variants). Some of them make sense (like when she is saying she doesn't know what someone else is trying to say and is asking for clarification), but even ignoring some of the posts as we were coming out of RVS, there are still quite a few of these already (examples in spoiler tag):

A lot of these were about Dat, which to me is indicative of wanting to have enough reason to vote for Dat but display enough uncertainty if Dat flips town (which from what I'm seeing is probably what would happen).

Second,

In post 722, skitter30 wrote:
like i feel like you're being rather elliptical and non-commital

I think this is exactly what skitt is doing, so it's interesting that she's calling TRQ out on it. I think her claim to be sitting back in this one could be a sign that she's willing to jump in where people make cases but be ready to back out so it doesn't look bad or gain town cred by appearing moderate and wanting to force out more discussion. As for her case on Dat, that brings us to my third point.

Third,
Skitt's the one who started the train on Dat. The initial reason was pretty vague,

In post 179, skitter30 wrote:
because you feel weird and feel like you're just kinda like ~around~ and trying to seem active without actually doing anything, if that makes sense

As she stayed on the train she was pretty non-commital. To me it looked like Mena was applying the pressure while she was staying at arm's distance.

Fourth, like I addressed before (and kinda related to the above) was the way that skitt was interacting with Dat when the Dat push was happening. At the time I thought it was suspicious, but then I started to doubt myself. Now I'm feeling like I should trust my instincts - I think it's less likely that she was trying to keep from tunneling and more likely that she was trying to gain some early towncred.

Here he's mentioning Datisi, but to push Skitter, at least that's all I see there. I think the bit saying "if Datisi flips town" is a way to position himself in the case that Datisi were to be lynched, he'd be in the grounds to push Skitter as a chain lynch of sorts, which would make less sense now that we know Marashu is scum, but this strat doesn't work unless they're both town.

872, from Datisi:

Spoiler:

I'm also looking forward to marashu's skitter case.

I think this interaction is NAI, because does scum!Datisi think town is going to sheep the main scumread slot when he cases Skitter...?

1216:

Spoiler:

I suggest taking a look at the interaction between Skitter and Menalque throughout the game and describing your impression on the transition between them voting together until the current division into two separate wagons. Of course, nothing too circumspect, stay objective.

Seconded.

clidd, about your stance change on Dat, is it because you went back to check for meta consistency, is it PoE, or is it because scum!Wu -> town!Datisi?

In this one, he's trying to link Gwu's alignment to Datisi's, but Gwu was on his way to getting lynched and Marashu knew he was town. Doesn't it look like he's trying to incriminate Datisi more than anything? It's probable that he's playing with wifom in all these, I don't know.

1061 is just some dialogue between them, I see nothing.

1068, I'm only quoting the relevant fragment, not the whole thing:

Spoiler:

I don't think Mena is scum because of how he pivoted the wagon away from me. I also don't think Dat/Wu scumpair makes sense -

I think Wu flipping mafia would mostly clear Dat

. I wouldn't be surprised to see skitt as mafia as I said before. I guess I have a null read on clidd? Like, I still want to suspect him because his posts are very erudite and I think if we don't scrutinize what he says he might just lead the town with his analyses. I think Mad and TRQ are town, and I've been liking word's posts so word is probably town. Scum is probably somewhere in skitt, Wu, Dat (but not Dat/Wu), clidd.

I know before I said scum!clidd -> town!Wu

, but I'm also thinking that scum!Wu->town!clidd (after an early TL on Wu, I think clidd would have tried to come up with an analysis on why Wu is still town rather than bussing Wu this early).

In this one, I think he's trying to imply town GeneralWu means scum Datisi and scum Clidd are open, which again feels like he's trying to make us jump for associations. Since he knew GWu was going to flip green, doesn't it look like he's pushing Datisi into a hole? Or maybe the point he wanted to drive home is "Datisi-GWu are not scum". I really don't know what to think of this bit, honestly.

1264:

Spoiler:

Wow, ok, the day's just starting and I'm already L-2.

I have a reason for thinking that I was wrong about skitt and that she is town. Also, Mena pivoting from town to town as scum doesn't make sense to me either so Mala is probably town as well. So that means the scum has to be in {clidd, Dat, Mad, word}.

I don't like how Mad jumped onto my wagon right away today. On D1 she jumped from Wu to me back to Wu, but then Mena was talking about how she was super town because of that. I know we can't ask him, but can anyone else explain how that action is town?

clidd/Mad and clidd/word make sense to me. so does Dat/Mad but less so. clidd/Dat doesn't make too much sense to me (clidd clearing Dat was based on Wu being scum, and with that pairing both know that Wu would be town). The dynamic between Dat/Mad on D1 and again today doesn't feel like they would be a team. Dat/word and Mad/word are possible - I don't remember much interaction there of note so I think I'd need to review that.

This is when he does the weird shift about Skitter, which seems to me that he was aware that he was making her look bad, since he was already scumread and likely to be flipped D2. He also pushes Clidd for the second time, and argues Datisi cannot be scum because he doesn't fit as my partner or Clidd's partner.

And finally, 1411:

Spoiler:

@Dat, you voted Mala to get that conversation going, but you haven't put on any pressure besides that. Where are you going with it?

This one is just random pressure at Datisi right before he was going to get lynched, this time for good.

My conclusion is: He's either very bad at hiding the fact that he's trying to protect Datisi, very bad at trying to hide that he's bussing with Skitter, or

actually trying to frame them both at once

.

[Maduisha]

I don't know what you guys will think. I'm sorry it took so long, I had to wrestle with formatting because sometimes quoted comments that contain spoilers break the whole thing if you put them into another spoiler.

[Maduisha]

The quotes are all the ones Word came with, I haven't re-checked Marashu's ISO myself yet.

[Maduisha]

Just checked his ISO searching "Dat" and what Word brought seems to be the only actual content, since the rest of messages are small references to him near RVS. So, yeah, what Word brought is all there is to be scrutinized between them.

[Maduisha]

In particular, I believe that Scum!Datisi played wrong here. There would be a chance for him to convince me that Skitter was scum, because that was what I theorized as a moderately stronger possibility in post 1635.

Is it me, or does it sound like scum!Datisi would have, in fact, taken advantage of your position in that post to direct you to Skitter instead of being vocal against it? Honestly, the more I look at it, the more I feel they're both town...

That or Datisi is scum but did not plan to frame Skitter, but I also don't see an attempt of his to push anyone but Malakittens. And if according to your theory, Clidd, the SE directed the NK of TRQ because they realized the masonry super early, doesn't it feel dumb that Datisi would push Malakittens if he knew lynching them was impossible? If Datisi is scum and is trying to mislead us, what's his plan?

[Maduisha]

And of course, I'm okay with waiting (both addressed to Clidd and Datisi).

[Maduisha]

Is it me, or does it sound like scum!Datisi would have, in fact, taken advantage of your position in that post to direct you to Skitter instead of being vocal against it? Honestly, the more I look at it, the more I feel they're both town...

I think he didnt want to commit to pushing me because he thinks he's probably going to lose the 1v1

That's also certainly a possibility...

I think I'm letting wifom and paranoia consume me lately.

[Maduisha]

In particular, I believe that Scum!Datisi played wrong here. There would be a chance for him to convince me that Skitter was scum, because that was what I theorized as a moderately stronger possibility in post 1635.

Is it me, or does it sound like scum!Datisi would have, in fact, taken advantage of your position in that post to direct you to Skitter instead of being vocal against it? Honestly, the more I look at it, the more I feel they're both town...

That or Datisi is scum but did not plan to frame Skitter, but I also don't see an attempt of his to push anyone but Malakittens. And if according to your theory, Clidd, the SE directed the NK of TRQ because they realized the masonry super early, doesn't it feel dumb that Datisi would push Malakittens if he knew lynching them was impossible? If Datisi is scum and is trying to mislead us, what's his plan?

I believe he wanted to remain too neutral. In a game state where everyone is speculating, interacting with each other, and he is "lost" is an indication of one of the characteristics of BoP, where the player is unable to find out who the scum is or to make inferences that lead to the correct track, because the player himself is the scum. As everyone around him is town, he has a hard time reaching opportunistic push instances, which I also believe is a defect of Scum!Datisi, at least as far as I could reason.

I'm guessing you're putting BoP on Datisi because he's SE alone, right? I say this because if I try to put myself in the shoes of town!Datisi, the game does seem confusing. Of course this can be read as scum trying to hide themselves in that... wifom everywhere.

skit, did you realize Mala was a Mason before the reveal?

And asking the antagonistic slot (which should be scum for him) if she noticed if Mala was a mason previously seems illogical. It is the same as asking a serial killer if he killed someone expecting a confession without proof.

That is true, it's a bit weird. The only thing I can extract from such interaction is that Datisi trusts Skitter still.

[Maduisha]

I mean, I understand your desire to move on with the game, but do remember that Datisi said he wants to reread the thread, and he unvoted Skitter, so in the case he's town, he might be able to see something we do not when he rereads. That plus Clidd's analysis, plus the fact that Skitter is in VLA status until April 11, I think warrants the waiting.

[Maduisha]

I think the Clidd theory makes sense, but I don't know if it makes sense to me because of it fueling my own paranoia, or because it holds water. Either way, his play up until the moment he pushed to reveal Malakittens was very towny to me, and I already know he does this kind of thing as town as well, so I'm going to put my bet on me being paranoid and Clidd is town. Which leaves me Datisi (my townread all game), Skitter and Word, two of which I don't know how to read. Reading Marashu's ISO only made one thing clear to me: he was trying to play with wifom and create so many interactions that finding his partner through association would be very hard. I really don't know what to do, and I admit I'm tempted to sheep Clidd if he makes a final read I can get behind, because I can't find anything decisive myself.

[Maduisha]

I would probably be able to finish on Saturday, even being discouraged. But I prefer to be honest than to deliver something opaque, without passion.

Thank you so much for your effort up until now. I don't know what you might be going through, but I wish you the best and I hope you will feel better soon. Your mental health is more important than fulfilling that delivery.

[Maduisha]

All that is left is waiting for tomorrow, then, I guess.

[Maduisha]

Yeah, no offenses taken here either.

It is Saturday now, hopefully Skitter tells us what's on her mind soon so we can reach the consensus as to which is the best step towards narrowing the PoE. I'm not convinced Datisi is scum for the reasons I already gave in my previous posts, but it's true that ruling out the possibility completely is impossible, as always. If you guys think it's the best course of action, then I will not oppose it, because I don't have a firmer alternative to propose.

[Maduisha]

Datisi=Clidd>Skitter>Word. The first two I find equally towny, but also see the room for scummy behavior. Clidd because of the events happening during the end of D2, and you because Marashu seemed to be trying to protect you. I believe Clidd is just town and I'm being paranoid, and I think Marashu tried to fabricate interactions that would make it difficult to find his partner, so I don't think his defense of you necessarily means you're scum.

The reason why you two are above Skitter and Word is because I got a stronger town vibe from both slots. Skitter is above Word but below you guys is because I don't think she'd hard bus her partner, but also can't rule out the possibility. If my belief that Clidd and you are townier is correct, then ruling out hard bus is unwise. I haven't been able to make a strong read out of Skitter's or Word's slots during all the game, so that's why they're the last two. Word is last simply because I find that scum!Word is more probable than a bussing Skitter, but yeah, that's all. I don't have a firm alternative to offer, as I said.

[Maduisha]

Are you still planning on just sheeping clidd's reads even though they blatantly clash with your own?

Well, when I can't find a different direction to take by myself and the rest of players agree on a decision, I think that's the moment in which I ought to question if my reads are correct and concede that I can make mistakes and be reading people wrong. We are waiting for Skitter precisely to see if everyone is on the same page at this point in the game, aren't we? For now, Clidd and Word feel settled on lynching you as a tool to narrow PoE. If I trust the PoE, then agreeing with the majority is the best course of action I can take from the standpoint of a person that doesn't have a better, more solid argument. Otherwise, I'd just be disrupting.

Like, I already explained why I think you're town. They told me why you're also likely to be scum. I already said what I had to say, if it doesn't gather any traction and I don't propose an alternative, I can't blame them for ignoring me.

[Maduisha]

I am saying that I trust their PoE above my own personal reads in this instance because I can't piece the puzzle together in my mind, I thought that was clear. Trusting others means letting go of your own ego at times.

[Maduisha]

Well, Clidd, he confronted me about my behavior and also tried to find inconsistencies in your stance. I think he is working with the tools he has.

And yeah, I agree I'm dead the next night since there's more room to push Clidd for a lynch in lylo than me.

[Maduisha]

Welcome back, Skitter!

I see you guys had a discussion while I slept. As I see it, it was mostly about NK possibilities and lylo combinations. I think those are pretty pointless, because I don't think they'll pass up on killing me, same as they didn't pass up on killing Malakittens. Slots the town trusts aren't slots you want in lylo, by definition.

Now that we know Skitter maintains her position about Datisi after coming back, I feel we are in position to advance the game state, although I think Clidd has something more he wants to say to say, since he mentioned that we still have time and such.

[Maduisha]

About Word finding my slot scummier now: I read it, but I didn't address it in my last post because of what I said before. I think I'm guaranteed to be the NK, so I don't see a point to it. There's enough remaining time before deadline to do an ISO analysis on me and I don't know if there are more points to be discussed during this day at least as of right now, so if he feels like picking apart my messages to have some peace of mind, I won't oppose it or feel offended by it.

[Maduisha]

First of all, I am confused as to why am I still left alive.

Secondly... if I was already pretty sure Clidd is town, him writing a scum!Skitter case only for it to be useless because he killed her sounds to me like 4D chess if were to be scum, or a town confirmation, and I choose the most likely option of the two. That leaves me with Word as solution through PoE.

[Maduisha]

There are evidences planted all over D3 and D2

What do you mean there's traceable evidence of his plan since D2? Care to illustrate it. I saw the link you posted before, but that's from D3 alone...

[Maduisha]

Sorry for the lack of correct punctuation there. I'm half asleep...

[Maduisha]

Hey Maduisha, do you think Scum!Word would kill Skitter ?

No. That's why I said before hanging Datisi that I was sure I'd be dead. I'm not sure what was the thought process here.

[Maduisha]

No, I don't think he's a sloppy player at all. So, you are implying that his constant push of SE slots was groundwork for this final move in which he posts a Skitter accusation while knowing she's dead...? Huh.

[Maduisha]

No. It has nothing to do with a major plan. Things played like this.

I don't get your point, then... first you call attention at Clidd's skills as a player to gather town cred and then you tell me he was actually just lucky? Unless I'm misunderstanding. I'm sorry, it's past midnight and my cognitive abilities are reduced...

[Maduisha]

Oh wait I missed a post. Alright. Yes, that's certainly a possibility, I guess...

[Maduisha]

Oh wait I missed a post. Alright. Yes, that's certainly a possibility, I guess...

''certainly a possibility''

was a slip, to be honest. You are much more impartial than you should be.

Why impartial? I already expressed my belief in this situation. That he said something that's in the realm of possibility doesn't mean I buy it.

[Maduisha]

I don't get your point, then... first you call attention at Clidd's skills as a player to gather town cred and then you tell me he was actually just lucky? Unless I'm misunderstanding. I'm sorry, it's past midnight and my cognitive abilities are reduced...

I am overwhelmed by the excess of info on clidd. Things may seem juggled together. The point is:

1. An action having a lot of effort behind it is never an indicator, on clidds case, of it being or not towny. Instead, an action should be judged by the likeness of scum taking it, wich includes the benefits of it as scum, weighted with the likeness of taking it as town, weighted by the benefits of town in the perspective of the rest of the players. Both can make sense at the same time, but the important thing is if one makes more sense than the other in a given situation (if it highly benefits scum, and "just" could be town, then for me that is pretty much sl)

2. How come luck plays a part in any of this? No scum is god. No scum (most of the time) develop a rigid plan from D1 to be followed and resolved on the last day. On the contrary, scum plays with the flow. You can plant suspicion. U can give a motive to being alive. U can try cleaning certain perceptions, etc. U can come D1, plant a wifom and kill the player who would have killed u. What I say is that along the different days he played the best way he can from a scum point of view with what he had at hand.

1. I guess you could see like that, but that's entirely wifom. As in... you have to end up taking a choice. The wine in front of you is poisoned, or the person who poisoned the wine put it in front of themselves. Is town!Clidd genuinely making this effort, or did he lay an elaborate trap? Both things are plausible and considering his trajectory during the game, I'm inclined to believe the most likely scenario (Clidd preparing a case when he expects to be alive) is the correct one.

2. The luck bit was me ignoring that your phrase continued in the following post. I apologize.

[Maduisha]

VOTE: Clidd

Sorry, guys.

[Maduisha]

Well played guys. I can't believe GWu, Datisi and Clidd at last minute were the only ones to see I wasn't actually helping at all. Well played, anyway. When you read the mafia PT you'll see how paranoid I was of this being 100% defeat simply because I was alive on the last day.

I was absolutely terrified of Datisi all game, you'll see.

And I want to congratulate Marashu, who did a cool job throwing everyone off with wifom and made all the night kill choices. He had to bear my nonsense too, that's rough.

[Maduisha]

I was absolutely terrified of Datisi all game, you'll see.

While I am pretty disappointed in my play at times in this game, I'm gonna take this as a compliment. Good game!

I blame the Hiyori Sou profile picture. Nah, I'm joking, gg. The PT is full of me going like "Marashu, we need to kill Datisi, he is scaring me".

lol

[Maduisha]

Thank you for the compliments. I think you would have won if Word and you didn't exchange townreads. I was convinced I had to kill Clidd (after changing my mind 100 times).

[Maduisha]

I feel bad for everyone that actually trusted me. I wish I could hug you all. Especially Word and Menalque...

Once I'm done with my other ongoing game, I will take a break, this was too much for my little heart.

[Maduisha]

Thank you for, Karnage, for modding. Also, happy birthday...? I don't know, I see a cake. I'm actually sleepy, it wasn't bluffing.

[Maduisha]

@karnage thankyou for modding!

gg all. sorry town, my performance here was not the greatest here. i learned a lot and will do my very best to be better in the future.

Nah, you threw Marashu and me for a loop with the claim and you actually died because we thought you had too much town credibility after the crumb theory was out. We did not spot you as a PR.