Mini Normal 2128: Normal Mafia - Game Over!

[Allomancer]

I don't think I've played with many or perhaps any of you before

[Allomancer]

The game has literally been open for two hours

[Allomancer]

Pro tip: At the top of the site there's a members directory where you can go look at their accounts...

[Allomancer]

VOTE: mavsfan41

I'm gonna go against the grain here and find the takes I disagree with. 18 and 23

[Allomancer]

Claim what outright?

[Allomancer]

VOTE: Paragon

Feeling very uncomfortable with this accusatory nature. Seems like he wants to force a quicklynch or something.

[Allomancer]

iDanyboy vs Morning Tweet feels like town vs town. It's understandable to not want to vote someone based on one thing you see as fishy, but I can follow dany's reasoning as well.

[Allomancer]

Also to be clear, there was no miller crumb.

[Allomancer]

I think bob has a point here

[Allomancer]

Now a townie would be more focused on othar things than being worried about makign teh slightest incorrect scum slip

That's not necessarily true, I'm always paranoid no matter what

[Allomancer]

I think I like Allo the least so far. He comes a bit off to me, like he is walking a thin line between everything. He hasn't really tried to sort Para since he voted him and I feel he takes stances just to dismiss them quickly like change from mavs to Para or reading Dany/MT as TvT just to agree with bob's suspicion against MT (at least that's how it came across to me) like as if he doesn't really believe in them.

I never really had strong feelings on either mavs or Para. That's why I switched so quickly - neither of them are a strong scumread, but they're the only scumreads I have.
And I can see bob as being logical while not quite agreeing that it's a big deal. I think if I were scumreading MT it might give me more pause, but in the broader sense I see MT as towny so it seems more likely it's just a misunderstanding and not a scumslip.

[Allomancer]

I think I like Allo the least so far. He comes a bit off to me, like he is walking a thin line between everything. He hasn't really tried to sort Para since he voted him and I feel he takes stances just to dismiss them quickly like change from mavs to Para or reading Dany/MT as TvT just to agree with bob's suspicion against MT (at least that's how it came across to me) like as if he doesn't really believe in them.

I never really had strong feelings on either mavs or Para. That's why I switched so quickly - neither of them are a strong scumread, but they're the only scumreads I have.
And I can see bob as being logical while not quite agreeing that it's a big deal. I think if I were scumreading MT it might give me more pause, but in the broader sense I see MT as towny so it seems more likely it's just a misunderstanding and not a scumslip.

[Allomancer]

79 might help you understand my read on bob vs MT more

[Allomancer]

Essentially, it's something scum would do, but that doesn't mean it's not something town would do

[Allomancer]

How is carefully answering "I cannot be partnered with anyone because I am not scum" more townie than pointing out that's it's a very loaded question???

This is a good post.

[Allomancer]

So your saying your not scum with para?

this is a loaded question that incriminates me for answering it and it feels like you're trying to make me "scumslip", which i neglected to put in quotes in my last message cause i'm a peabrain

So you saying you cant answer the question.

When its easy to answer for any town. Correct answer is "i am town and thus cant be partnered with anyone"

So it is certainly answerable. But instead your trying to make reachy case out of it

I want to revisit this. Now the original "If I were scum with para" might've been a slip, but as I've mentioned before, it's also something a townie might say, and I'm not sure it's indicative of scum in the broader context of MT's other posts.

However, I don't think there's

anything

wrong with saying "it's a loaded question". Scum is certainly not incapable of lying, and could easily answer "I'm town" in response. I think by acknowledging that MT saw what you were trying to get her to do, she implies that that's what her response would be, and pushing her for not answering is stupid.

The next point you could make is that scum would be more aware of trying to avoid scumslipping, and would be more likely to catch that it's a loaded question, versus town who might just respond "of course I'm not scum with para", not putting a whole lot of thought into it and just answering the question presented. You seemed tried to push this in 78, which is odd because it contradicts your earlier argument of "town would answer 'im town'". IMO, this is another thing that is something scum would do, but it's also something town might do. Some people are just good at spotting loaded questions.

Looking back at your argument, it seems like there's some cognitive dissonance in that you want town to be able to spot the framing and not answer the question straight on, but also spotting the framing makes you scum.

In short, looking back at the contradiction between 75 and 79, it seems like you're trying to force MT to be scum, not matter what she says. That's just intellectually dishonest, which is certainly scummy.

VOTE: bob3141

[Allomancer]

You simply refused to answer. What scum pops tried to do. First she fought and she only answered it after i spelled every point i wanted answering. And then when i finally forced her to, it showed with out a doubt she was scum.

This is why I'm just realizing this now. I saw this line and it started me on the train of thought I presented in the previous post, and then I took a second look at 79 and saw it as scummy.

[Allomancer]

I don't see 59 as excessively defensive compared to the rest of the conversation. I feel it gradually escalated in seriousness without any one post being the impetus.

[Allomancer]

Although it does seem odd how dany basically disappeared once bob took over pursuing MT, now that I look back at it

[Allomancer]

Bob's recent posts feel a bit more towny, but I'm still not sure. I think I'll wait and read his catchup before I reevaluate my read on him.

[Allomancer]

How do you claim traitor and not get lynched?

[Allomancer]

Roles which are explicitly Normal for Town only include:
Vanilla Townie, Friendly Neighbor, Innocent Child, Mason,

Miller

, Vigilante, Vengeful, any roles listed as "for any alignment"

[Allomancer]

I suppose I'll make a readslist.

For now: VOTE: Bob

Allomancer's changed my mind.

noting this post, wonder if it will be indicative of future voting from paragon.

What do you mean by this?

[Allomancer]

I'm townreading Skellen, but then again maybe I'm just stupid. I still think bob is the right lynch today.

[Allomancer]

BB, do you still scumread Skellen?

[Allomancer]

VOTE: iDanyBoy

What's the reasoning behind this vote?

[Allomancer]

@dany can you explain your read on me?

[Allomancer]

I think geraint has a good case on Trollie. Went through his ISO myself and I find myself agreeing.

@Morning Tweet: what do you think of geraint and Trollie?

[Allomancer]

I like what Madoka is saying, and I had townread Skellen as well. I'm not entirely convinced of the case on Trollie, though, but I am slightly leaning scum on him.

A lot of BB's posts feel scummy, but I don't think scum claims Mason, especially not so early. I'm tempted to think he's just lazy.

[Allomancer]

I'd like to see more content from espressojet. I'm having trouble forming a read on him.

[Allomancer]

VOTE: mavsfan41

I really don't like the push on BB. Feels like he's trying to uncover the other mason in the game, which scum would want to do.

[Allomancer]

Not a priority lynch =/= townread

[Allomancer]

@Trollie: How do you feel about post 116? I’ve been reading Skellen’s entrance into the game over and over both framed as she’s scum and then as town. Post 116 seems to suspect Allomancer who she does eventually vote. Post 119 agrees with Allomancer’s read. Post 121 is the defense of Allomancer and post 122 is the Allomancer vote. This seems to flip flop quite a bit on Allomancer. None of her posts have consistency on Allomancer. You’ve pointed out the inconsistencies in posts 121 and 122. But this was a theme earlier with less conviction. She seems to be fixated on Allomancer leading to a wide range of thinking he’s town then thinking he’s scum. I can see town skellen doing this whereas scum Skellen would just be lazy and make a case for a bob vote. The Unvote of allomancer as the first post she makes after you throw suspicion on her and that whole post in general has a weird feel to it. Thoughts? You’ve got my vote, but I don’t wanna let iDanyboy bully me into a vote, so can’t do it in this post

yeah so - this fits into my interpretation of skells entrance to the game - goes through poking holes where she can - including in my "faked townread" post that has gotten so much attention.

Then she gets down to placing a vote, and votes allo without realizing that the scumread on allo is inconsistent with that post against me.

As a matter of fact mavs, I think this is pretty damning. 119 shows that the scum-allo read was very early on in her reading of the game. It's the first post of content she gives us. So again, I just don't buy that town-skell asks me to defend the idea that scum-allo can fake townie posts. If she can't get fully behind that claim, she also can't scum-read skell.

I think you can agree with someone's read but disagree with their reasons for having that read.

[Allomancer]

Vote: Trollie

Espresso and Titus, what do you think of Trollie vs Madoka?

Why are you referring to yourself in the third person?

I feel it's t v t

I know I wasn't asked, but I second this.

[Allomancer]

I'd be willing to lynch bob or mavsfan right now. I still need someone to convince me on trollie or espresso.

[Allomancer]

I really don't like Titus at this point, 638 feels like OMGUS, which is odd so close to deadline. MT has a good point about the Titus's associations being conspiracy-theory-esque.
VOTE: Titus

[Allomancer]

VOTE: bob

[Allomancer]

That sucks, MT was my top townread.

Yesterday, she pushed bob and Titus. Both were also on the Espresso wagon. I don't think Titus's claim means anything; I think she's telling the truth, but since we know there are Masons, I think the claim could be town or scum.

VOTE: Titus

[Allomancer]

Yes. I think they are a PT cop, but I think there could a town PT cop or a scum PT cop.

[Allomancer]

The only thing that I’m kinda going back and forth on... is why would scum!titus not just continue to go with the cop claim. IDK what scum agenda would be to claim that she was lying and is VT.

I was mulling at that at work today

No matter what Titus flips, her behavior will have been very confusing

[Allomancer]

This leads me to my next question - does neighborizing resolve before a kill?

General rule of thumb is that kills do not affect the actions of the killed player.

[Allomancer]

I'm not sure I see the benefit of a neighborhood claim. I get the idea that if scum know the mason we should too, but I don't see how a neighborhood claim without the mason claiming helps.

[Allomancer]

I think the masons and neighbours are safe

if mav, germ and bambi are not in it. As i reckon their prob the scum team

Can you explain your read on geraint?

[Allomancer]

I think bob's recent posts have actually been pretty towny. But I don't think his case on Bambi is entirely justified. I think there's certainly the possibility of one of them being scum, but I'm not confident.

I scumread mavsfan day 1 and I don't think that's really changed. Since I don't have any strong scumreads right now, I might as well VOTE: mavsfan

[Allomancer]

gerain/mavs/bambi prob

I find myself starting to agree with this more and more.

[Allomancer]

I'm getting less and less convinced of mavs being scum. The interactions around Trollie and Dany w/ regards to mavs just seem a bit fishy. I'm sure at least one of those three is scum, but I'm no longer sure which.
UNVOTE:

[Allomancer]

Ok Trollie, I'm going to examine all the interactions between the people you listed and yourself to find out who could be partners. Note that I'm including you because I still have a slight scumread on you.

- iD pushes me to re-assess my mavs read, I bite
- I vote Mavs, and post my believe if a mavs/gerain/bambi team

I think this means dany and mavs can't be partners. While dany theoretically could be busing, I don't see him pushing a bus that hard, especially since mavs wasn't a popular scumread at the time.

- Mavs AGREES with my assessment, but subs out himself for bob (i.e. mavs believes scum = bob/bambi/gerain) *this is where my reads started to get fucked up. If mavs is scum (which I still believe(d) to be true), suggesting that his reads are also bambi/gerain is a mindfuck...hard to decifer what that means about bambi/gerain if mavs is lynched and does flip scum - couldn't imagine both of {Bambi/Gerain} would be his partners

You're right here. Mavs/bambi/gerain is unlikely to be the team. While mavs could very well be distancing one of his partners, I doubt he would list both in his scumread for fear of having to lynch them both. So it could be mavs+bambi or mavs+gerain, but not mavs+bambi+gerain.

- Then MALA (note - also on the list above/a slot i've never given up on thinking could be scum) ALSO AGREES with my reads. What's scummy about her post though is that she says, of MY reads, that if one of the three of {mavs/bambi/gerain} is scum, it probably is that I (TROLLIE) am scum. I was literally just reconing with the idea that scum-mavs would buddy with me against both of his scum-partners, and now MALA is suggesting that she thinks I am bussing both of my partners. Don't like that one bit.

Mala said if one of them is town, you're scum, not if one of them is scum. Also she didn't say that the other two would be your buddies. It's possible she meant that if one of them is town, another or both of the others would also be town. As such, I'm not willing to scumread her off that interaction. In any case, you're right that it's probably not you with two of the people in that list. However, I think it could be you, one of the people listed, and someone else.

- then, iDanny jumps on this to call me scum for changing my mind on mavs, when I literally only changed my mind on mavs BECAUSE OF MY BACK-AND-FORTH WITH IDANNY.

I feel like this makes him more likely to be town. I don't see scum suddenly defending someone they put that much work into wagoning, but town can change their mind. The only reason dany might pivot like that is if mavs was his partner, which I already established was unlikely.

- then Gerain posts a wall on me but whatever...I don't agree with his case but he doesn't loop anyone else in so I'm less concerned with that.

This doesn't really give any information.

OH - now I just scrolled up and the bob wagon is mavs/gerain/bambi - so yeah I don't think that is the team.

You're right, scum wouldn't all be on the same wagon with no one else on, but I think I already established it wouldn't be all three of them.

I think at most 1 of {gerain/bambi} is scum.

I think there's still the possibility of town mavs and a gerain+bambi team. While I'm certainly not convinced of it, it's still a possibility.

If I had to go out on a limb here, I'd say mavs is scum, and his partners are either (a) {Mala/iDanny} or (b) one of {Mala/iDanny} and one of {Gerain/Bambi}

I don't see mavs+danny being scum.

There's a lot to unpack in all that. I may need to make a spreadsheet.

Maybe I'm just OMGUSing? anyone else see that as scum-PT orchestrated?

If this is all an elaborate WIFOM, the scumteam honestly deserves to win.

[Allomancer]

After producing the aforementioned spreadsheet, I have realized that the team cannot be mavs+gerain. Mavs wouldn't be partnered with dany or bob, and gerain wouldn't be partnered with mala or Trollie. CSF is my only strong townread, so they wouldn't be partnered with her.

[Allomancer]

^ and of course, we've established mavs+gerain+bambi is probably not the scumteam

[Allomancer]

mavs+bambi can't be scumteam either, because mavs wouldn't be partnered with dany or bob, Bambi wouldn't be partnered with bob either, and it wouldn't be the two of them plus trollie, mala, or gerain.

[Allomancer]

Okay I have identified 5 likely scumteams. Others are possible, but not as likely.

Mala+Bambi+Trollie
Mala+Bambi+Dany
Trollie+bob+Dany
Trollie+bob+Mala
mavs+Trollie+Mala

Mala and Trollie are each in 4 of these. Given that I lean slightly more scum on Trollie than on Mala, VOTE: Trollie

[Allomancer]

I don't see mavs and danny both being scum together, and I said why in 996. I said it couldn't be mala+bambi+mavs based on mala agreeing with your 957, assuming it doesn't make sense for scum to try and bus both of their partners. However, now that I look back, the "I'm leaning trollie if one of these are town" does cast doubt. Given that she's voting gerain, it's very possible she planned on lynching gerain, and then pivoting to you rather than lynching the other two. So I guess mala+bambi+mavs could very well be a possibility.

I mainly came up with these teams based on interactions that I thought looked like two scum and then looking at who they could be paired with. The first two scumteams came from Bambi/Mala interactions and the second two came from Trollie/Bob interactions. I'm not actually sure why I put the last scumteam in, to be quite honest. I just thought mavs was scummy enough that he deserved to be a suspect and I constructed the only one that made sense with him in it.

Now that Mala+bambi+mavs is on the table, however, I take back what I said about it can't be mavs+bambi. That's another scumteam to suspect based off of Bambi/mavs interaction.

So the new list:

Mala+Bambi+Trollie
Mala+Bambi+Dany
Trollie+bob+Dany
Trollie+bob+Mala
Mala+Bambi+mavs

[Allomancer]

This means that Mala is in the most possible teams. The last team is actually the most likely as well, given both the Bambi+mavs and the Mala+Bambi interactions. I was certainly wrong to write it off.

VOTE: Malakittens

[Allomancer]

This means that Mala is in the most possible teams. The last team is actually the most likely as well, given both the Bambi+mavs and the Mala+Bambi interactions. I was certainly wrong to write it off.

VOTE: Malakittens

Good enough for me!

Vote: malakittens

This is certainly an odd response to a post in which I'm suggesting mavs is likely scum as well. I feel like no matter what Mala flips I want to lynch mavs next based off of this.

[Allomancer]

Just because those are the five most likely scumteams doesn't mean they're all equally likely. I now think the last one is by far the most likely.

[Allomancer]

Also if Mala is town I have to completely reconsider everything anyway I think.

[Allomancer]

Either mavs is scum messing with us or he's just completely given up trying or both.

[Allomancer]

If you guys don't want to lynch Mala, I'd be okay with voting mavs. However, I'm not going to put him at L-1 until Drew-Sta has a chance to catch up and get his thoughts out.

[Allomancer]

Alright, drew had a chance to catch up.

VOTE: mavs

That's

L-1

, and Drew said he would hammer, so mavs, now is the time to claim.

[Allomancer]

Titus was lynched on Day 2. You targeted a dead person?

[Allomancer]

I mean jesus Christ that was hard. The fact that when Allo was alive and I bluffed being put in the different PT was priceless. Trollie being on me during that was also amazing.

I was wondering why more pf you didn't push my claim more, but I took tue bet being apathetic would make people forget to look at the inconsistency.

Also you can blame me for the no kills since I knew town would give up before us, particularly when Cakez confirmed it would end after day 7.

I'm still amazed that your claim about being neighborized worked. The combined fact that you were the actual target so there was no one to contradict you, plus molla had told me he was targeting you, meant you were able to get away with it. Then the fact that Trollie saw that and thought you were conftown.

That was insanely risky and insanely lucky on your part.