Mini Normal 2128: Normal Mafia - Game Over!

[Madoka]

Thank you, Espresso

[Madoka]

Spoiler:

Allo is town homeboys

I agree he has some townie posts but i think all of his towntells are easily fabricated.

Just because they are easily fabricated doesn't necessarily mean they are. Since you are voting him I assume you think they are fabricated, so what makes you think so that scum!Allo is faking his towntells here?

Correct - since I am voting him my take is that they are fabricated. the town tells are too tryhard for my liking

On first glance I got a good impression on Para and Dany. I liked Para's "wall" even although I don't agree with most of it, but I think I get where he is coming from.

I think I like Allo the least so far. He comes a bit off to me, like he is walking a thin line between everything. He hasn't really tried to sort Para since he voted him and I feel he takes stances just to dismiss them quickly like change from mavs to Para or reading Dany/MT as TvT just to agree with bob's suspicion against MT (at least that's how it came across to me) like as if he doesn't really believe in them.

VOTE: Allomancer

I don't like this at all. Post 121 requires that Skellen has some level of resistance to my conclusion that Allo is scum. If she thinks Allo is scum then she also thinks the potential towntells are either not towntells or are fabricated. I don't see her posting 121 and then joining me in 122.

Trollie, I think your case on Skellen is disingenuous. It's apparent that her reasons for finding Allo suspicious in 122 were different than the reasons she questioned in 121.

The case is that for Skellen to say "what makes you think so that scumAllo is faking his towntells here?"

has only 1 good response - that Allo is scum

. By definition, if you think someone is faking townie posts it is because you think they are scum.

This is incorrect. To answer that you believe the towntells are fake because he is scum is circular reasoning, and not what she was looking for. She wanted you to explain what

about his posts

gave you the impression that they were fake.

[Madoka]

Having the same read as someone doesn't exclude them from being a suspect. You can find someone suspicious and at the same time be vigilant about the other people that do. Mafia have to make up the reasoning for their reads, so if there is a peculiarity behind a player's reasoning that they are not able to explain, it's a good indicator that it's fabricated and they are scum.

[Madoka]

Does that make sense to you, Trollie?

[Madoka]

Oh, I see where you're getting hung up. You're misinterpreting the meaning of towntell (or rather Skellen misinterpreted your use). She meant towntell as in

something designed specifically to look like a town slip

. So she was asking you what you thought was designed to look like a town slip. She wasn't scum reading Allo because she felt his posts were designed to look like a town slips. She was scumreading him because she felt he was scummy (fence-sitting and hopping).

Your interpretation of what she meant by towntell is

something that comes from town

. From that perspective, I can see how you could perceive her suspicions as contradictory. Again, however, that is not what she was insinuating. Based on what she thought you meant by towntell, she was asking what you felt were deliberate acts of Allo to look townie. And since she perceived his actions as scummy, not townie, it makes sense that your reasoning stood out to her.

Does that clear it up?

[Madoka]

Any big disagreement with my list or something anyone want to discuss

I can't tell if I love or hate this post

What do you think is to love or hate about it?

[Madoka]

I don't but I think my interpretation is correct. I think if you reread your interaction with her with that in mind, it will become clear that she was asking "how does a towntell being fabricated mean that the person is scum?" Simply because something doesn't make someone town, it doesn't mean they are scum. This is really apparent to me. You also have to take into account that she is a newbie and things like this are more likely to stick out to her. I see what you mean by her not making the logical leap that you were scumreading Allo for other reasons, but she simply didn't because that's not what you said.

[Madoka]

town tell being fabricatable*

[Madoka]

Also is there a reason you're yelling? I'm not trying to provoke you. I think this is a genuine misunderstanding.

[Madoka]

Man there’s a lot here I don’t know what to think

I also hated Madokas post where they explained the reasoning for their replace in

But I could also see town explaining it in response to trying to read Trollie?

Meh

What don't you like about it?

And yes, that's exactly right. I think it's as important to be read correctly as it is to correctly read other people. Trollie is either seriously misinterpreting or is pushing in bad faith. I'm starting to think the latter looking again at 404.

you have no idea wtf she meant.

this is the scummiest post from this slot yet.

Why is your interpretation more valid than mine? This is what I mean by pushing in bad faith. Even though both interpretations are possible, you're choosing the negative interpretation over giving my slot the benefit of the doubt, despite it being more reasonable.

[Madoka]

One person asking me how to pronounce my name, another asking me to stop screaming.

Is this some new magic tech? Can you hear me out there?!

I mean do you think you would have said "you have no idea what the **** she meant" to a stranger if playing in real life? Speaking through media such as internet forums tends to desensitize us to the fact that the receivers are people (who are by default deserving of respect and dignity).

What don't you like about it?

When you replace in and you are town, what is the first thing you do?

When you replace in and you are scum, what is the first thing you do?

It varies obviously, but traditionally as scum you reread your predecessor first thing to see how screwed you are from their play. If by doing this you think you're notably screwed, you might offer reasons for what they said to try to save your slot.

So it's just figuring out your path of getting to the point where you're explaining your predecessor, does it come from you rereading him to determine how screwed you are, or being town and looking at Trollie, seeing he scumread your slot, finding out why, etc.

Interesting, you're really not far off. I always read the player that I may replace

before

I decide to replace in because I want to minimize the chance that I replace into a scum slot. It was apparent to me before I replaced in that Trollie was misconstruing Skellen's question (not necessarily intentionally). Trollie's 404 and lack of response to my following clarifications is different than what I expected based on his response in 384 to gera's push. His repose there was objective and he immediately dropped the point he was going to bring up when faced with contradictory information regarding gera's perspective. Here I feel I've adequately described where he is getting it wrong with regard to Skellen's question but he is sidestepping the points I'm making, and in contrast to his objective tone with gara, is speaking rather aggressively/matter-of-factly, which leads me to suspect that the push is in bad faith.

Cat, I'm all caught up.

Espresso, can you answer my question from before?

[Madoka]

I give u all my respect and dignity. I said "wtf" not "what the fuck" - its internet lingo, not me being abrasive.

That said, I apologize for upsetting you.

OK, thank you

Do you have any thoughts on anyone in the game besides trollie, Madoka?

Yes, is there anyone in particular you would like my opinion of?

Madoka why would you think scum woudl avoid pushign my wagon. as sicne it never got over 4 at the very most one scum could of been on it. as if 2 scum are pushing the same wagon it moves.

I don't think there is much to extract from an early day wagon until we have later data to compare it to. In general, however, I think wagon resistance is indicative that the player is red. Again this is more important later in the day because early wagons have low lynch potential (since there is little to go on and it's optimal to use the Day time) and so scum aren't likely in the mindset of having to press for their preferred lynch.

Of the people on your wagon, I think Paragon's voting pattern is the most suspicious. He went from Bob > Allo > Dany; stated you three were his prime suspects in 88; switched to allo in 93 in preference to dany; switched to Bob > Allo > Bob; changed his mind on Allo and Bob but never went back to Dany despite reiterating his scum read in 242. It reads more as showmanship than legitimate scumhunting, particularly because he dropped persuing Dany, which I think would be the natural next step for town!Para after changing his mind on Bob/Allo.

[Madoka]

Any big disagreement with my list or something anyone want to discuss

I can't tell if I love or hate this post

What do you think is to love or hate about it?

It reads very over-eager to me

I don't see iDanyBoy being read anywhere near neutral this game

Anyone who reads otherwise, I'd be wary of

Can you rephrase the second part? I'm having difficulty parsing what you mean. Are you saying it's suspicious to have Dany as a null read? Also what is to love about being over-eager?

[Madoka]

My reads are aligned with MT's except for Para and me. I'm less sure on Cat too. It felt like her vote on me was premeditated.

[Madoka]

Trollie, you’ve been pretty consistent in your read of Skellen and really do feel like you’re tying to figure the game out. I’ll vote Skellen.

Vote: Madoka

Can you point out where in my case against Trollie's case you disagree?

[Madoka]

Madoka what made you townread Skellen's ISO before you replaced in?

It was more that I thought she had a greater chance of being town than rand% based on her catchup, her newbie status, and quick comparison to her mini normal 2111 iso. Scum are more likely to be hypersensitive to potential inconsistencies as they want to maintain a consistent narrative. Town are more reckless/stream of consciousy without really caring about their presentation. Her questioning trolley's Allo read in 121 then voting Allo in 122 indicated that she was playing stream of consciousy and not to make friends. An alternative example of how scum!skellen might act in this case is either

defend

Allo or

buddy

Trolley. But the fact that she questioned both, tells me she was in a scumhunting mindset, not a presentation mindset.

(There was also the possibility that she and Trolley were mates because her question did look like scum might address their partner, but I didn't think this likely based off trolley's side of the interaction)

[Madoka]

I change my mind on Trollie. I think we should focus on Bambi, Espresso, and Gera.

[Madoka]

I change my mind on Trollie. I think we should focus on Bambi, Espresso, and Gera.

Actually nevermind. I felt like scum!trollie wouldn't tunnel this hard. I think scum are more likely to back down when faced with resistance/contradiction to their push as to avoid the fallout if it goes through. And I've given so many openings for Trollie to change her view but he has held firm to his position.

I think this may be because 489, however. Trollie may have been moving toward backing off of me, but Gera's post put him in a position where he could no longer do so without affirming his suspicions. So his tunneling is NAI.

Cat, I'll answer you once I get a response from mavs.

[Madoka]

I've never heard of it, but yes that was my thinking.

[Madoka]

I don't think I can empathize with this one. Can you specifically lay out what you believe to be contradictory?

[Madoka]

Mavs, I don't understand. My case directly contradicts Trolleys, so if you don't disagree with it why are you giving weight to Trolleys? Yes it's a theory, but so is Trolleys. The difference is that I

know

Skellen had good intentions so it's not like I'm just pulling it out of a hat.

Do you agree that the posts Trollie quoted above are contradictory?

[Madoka]

Vote: Trollie

Espresso and Titus, what do you think of Trollie vs Madoka?

[Madoka]

Also Titus I agree that Espresso was defending Dany there, but it looks more like TMI scum defending town than it does defending their partner. I don't see why they would need to put themselves out there when Dany wasn't in immediate danger and could have defended himself/tuned up his play.

[Madoka]

Also Titus I agree that Espresso was defending Dany there...

I'm not going to answer your questions if you're not going to listen to what I say

I feel strange, am I not being concise?

I could very much be misunderstanding. I've been having difficulty parsing your phrasing. I've read 494 a dozen times and still don't understand.

a Dany posts a read lists and asks if anyone wants to engage with it.
b You're not sure if you love or hate that because it's over eager.
...
c You believe people are strongly reading Dany
d Not reading him strongly is something to be suspicious of

I'm not getting how c connects to a and b. Or how d follows from c. I'm not trying to be pedantic or throw shade here, I just genuinely don't understand what you're saying. What I

am

suspicious of, however, is the love/hate bit as it reads unecessarily "mulling" over a line I don't think is telling either way (as MT explained in 457). If there's no way of interpreting if it's coming from town or scum, what was the purpose of commenting on it?

[Madoka]

Cat, Mini 2121 is actually where I'm drawing mavs meta too and one of the reasons I've been town reading him. He's an appeal to the public/solidarity type of player in general. Ex: 408 on BEF, you can see how he's gearing up to unvote similar to how he geared up to vote me here; 466, working through his thoughts similar to 478 here; 579, asking for people to help on his BEF read; 669, stating a strong opinion then completely undermining it.

I'd still like him to address, specifically, where he disagrees with my case however because I think Trollie is full of it at this point, and I don't think one can rationally come to the same conclusion if fairly comparing our arguments.

[Madoka]

Just read these two posts. I think they tell different stories of how she read skell.

Can you spell it out for me?

Yeah sorry actually it's not as in your face as I remembered.

In the first post she justifies Skells behavior by saying that this is all a misunderstanding and that Skells posts on me and then on allo were consistent with one another

in the second one she says she pre-replacing in town-read skell because "Her questioning trolley's Allo read in 121 then voting Allo in 122 indicated that she was playing stream of consciousy and not to make friends."

The second post justifies her slot's towniness by saying that only town would post the inconsistency that she has spent the whole game trying to prove was not actually inconsistent

I can't recall the term for this but you're conflating two different connotations of the word 'inconsistent'. In the first sense, her

mindstate

is consistent/not contradictory. In the second sense, her

posts

are not constructed in a way as to form a consistent

narrative

.

[Madoka]

Equivocation is the term: https://www.txstate.edu/philosophy/reso ... ation.html

[Madoka]

Cat, I'll have my thoughts on Bob before the end of the day.

Espresso, are you not going to clarify?