Micro 932: A Normal Blitz - Game Over

[Datisi]

Hello bugs! George, Luca, Holden! Pleasure to play with you!

to be determined if that's the case for the rest of y'all

VOTE: bugspray

baa

[Datisi]

Holden i missed you

[Datisi]

Who's Datsi?

[Datisi]

Might actually spell my name right in the next game, I'm excited

[Datisi]

Not really. I was hard TRing him in that game (and was correct), but a while ago i got familiar with some of his scumgames, and eh... I'll be having trouble getting a read of Holden i think.

You often do meta research like this?

[Datisi]

Have you researched others in the game (other than Luca)?

[Datisi]

When was this "awhile ago"? I haven't played in ~6 months.

I read Newbie 1948 when I was doing meta research for Newbie 1952.

[Datisi]

Interesting to see someone go straight for meta research. Especially with a very recently made account.

[Datisi]

Generally people just do ~nothing~ while waiting for the game to start. Or at least I do nothing.

Plus there's the thought that second hand meta is not necessarily useful and can even be harmful if it leads to confbiasing. So eh.

[Datisi]

For some reason I thought your post was much more scummer then it actually was.

Which one? 22? What gave you that impression?

[Datisi]

I dig this.

[Datisi]

Generally people just do ~nothing~ while waiting for the game to start. Or at least I do nothing.

Plus there's the thought that second hand meta is not necessarily useful and can even be harmful if it leads to confbiasing. So eh.

Do you think the meta research is AI at all?

Not really, no. I think it's more personality/motivation based than alignment based.

Also side comment, my guess on who shiki was in the past life has been confirmed. That's another person I feel pleasure seeing.

[Datisi]

You wanna talk about it?

[Datisi]

Perhaps later. Just throwing some bait in the water. I could just not enjoy your posting style either which will make things difficult.

Could be. Hit me up anytime if you wanna jam.

This is a blitz game. If you don’t like something then fire away.

Luca, you got anything you want to fire at?

[Datisi]

Comparing to the last game we played?

[Datisi]

Yes, you were very obviously Town that game from early on. Not sure if it was just that game? I’ll have a look back.

remeber the game before where we were TvT and screamed at each other for 100 pages before you quickhammered me? good times.

You’ve been active so far but your play has been stilted by comparison.

Your convo about the meta seemed a bit aimless

it feels aimless because i personally think that "researching meta" is not exactly an AI thing. i was hoping sparking conversation about it would lead to discussion that *would* be AI, but i guess not.

[Datisi]

What's the point of this conversation? Are you going to SR him or something?

How do you usually decide if you SR someone or not? You don't talk to them?

pedit: ahh i see.

[Datisi]

@hiraki id really like to hear your thoughts on datisi. withholding ai content like this only hurts town unless you're doing some weird galaxy brain gambit

s'there a point to asking this? multiple others asked, and he already commented it could be a style clash.

[Datisi]

hot take: luca blight is town

[Datisi]

hot take: luca blight is town

True, but why do you think so?

your right into the conversation no beating around the bush straight to the point behaviour. your thoughts make sense to me, and mindmeld on 74 and 77.

who are you calling lamist, bugs?

[Datisi]

Question to both Datisi and bugspray: Why is Luca Blight town?

answered in 90

[Datisi]

was there *any point* to you saying "lamist" there?

[Datisi]

hot take: bugs is not town

[Datisi]

hot take: bugs is not town

i like early reads from people because it's good information.

why is bugs not town?

Hm, i was kinda hoping bugs would be the first to react. anyway. more than half their ISO feels like pure fluff and filler. 68 asks a question that has already been asked multiple times and half answered. 76 81 86 have no game content. half of 96 and 100 is justification for no content post. it all feels off.

pedit: and continuation of justifying the no content post.

[Datisi]

hot take: bugs is not town

i like early reads from people because it's good information.

why is bugs not town?

Hm, i was kinda hoping bugs would be the first to react. anyway. more than half their ISO feels like pure fluff and filler. 68 asks a question that has already been asked multiple times and half answered. 76 81 86 have no game content. half of 96 and 100 is justification for no content post. it all feels off.

pedit: and continuation of justifying the no content post.

what were you hoping bugs' reaction is?

so what do you think about George Bailey vs bugspray?

i didn't have a set town/scum reaction in mind. it was more of a reading the reaction first and then deciding how i feel about it

not much. i know they're friends, so i didn't think anything of the RVS votes. deflection to george in 102 is weird but i don't know what to make of it yet.

[Datisi]

How many scum do you think we have in this setup? Is there a possibility of third-party factions?

huh, now that hiraki's mentioned it. what was the purpose of this question?

[Datisi]

How many scum do you think we have in this setup? Is there a possibility of third-party factions?

huh, now that hiraki's mentioned it. what was the purpose of this question?

RQS

i meant whether the question was genuine or not. micro normals are always 7 Town v 2 Mafia, so i thought the question was more of a snarky "wow there's so many scummy people, how many scum do we have here?"

but if it was a genuine setup spec question then yeah obviously it's a different meaning.

[Datisi]

Is there anything in particular you're hoping to get out of starting my wagon that you couldn't get without people voting me?

Also setup spec generally comes into play after we've had some claims. Hopefully not on Day 1.

[Datisi]

Is there any player in this game that believes the above statement being anything true?

it sounded genuine to me. not sure if it's true though.

inb4 this spat is a TvT waste of time. though not sure if i'm just annoyed by it because i'm tired.

[Datisi]

i'm not sure i get the "trying to imagine from Datisi's perspective" parts. it seems to me you are already imagining i'm scum and "what i as scum!datisi would do"?

[Datisi]

Madoka, is there any use in not outright saying ypur impressions on the entirety of the playerlist? Or at list on whoever you have a read?

[Datisi]

Are you aware of what an ego post is?

no, i just saw you started your completed games with one.

as far as i can tell, it is basically bookmarking the thread to find it later.

Did you find that out now or at the time of writing 183?

[Datisi]

Luca, do you have any follow-up to 145?

Holden, you fully caught up? opinion on players who are not monkey/hiraki?

Hot Takes: hiraki and holden probably town.

[Datisi]

Luca, do you have any follow-up to 145?

Are you asking if I agree with Monkey’s PoV?

I meant to ask if you like his explanation or do you still think it's contradictory? And general opinion on MonkeyvHiraki?

[Datisi]

Ah, i misunderstood what you were calling contradictory, my bad.

[Datisi]

bugs, mind giving us thoughts about the gamestate? Or like anything?

[Datisi]

how does your wagon being stagnant (???) make it scumdriven?

[Datisi]

i don't get it and now i'm sad.

also what's your commentary about the wagon?

[Datisi]

bugs's futher posting is just making me think they're scum more and more. i think further questioning would just lead to more confbiasing regardless of their actual alignment. so fire away.

[Datisi]

its fuckin weird how georgebailey isnt posting since a long time ago (weird to say that with 24h days...)

with how my wagon became stagnant it makes me think maybe its scumdriven?? but i dont think ur the scum on my wagon bcs you seem to be actively townsolve and get ai posts happen

like do we just lynch the inactive slot??

people have said that before about stagnant wagons how if the wagon is stagnant they say its scum driven

maybe i missed the point

right. anyway. this sequence makes me feel like bugs posted about their wagon being stagnant because it is scumdriven (even though it's not really stagnant because the game has started less than 24 hours ago *and* they just said that they don't think i'm scum) purely because they had to post ~something~ (even though they didn't seem to put much thought behind what it means that a wagon is stagnant and why that would indicate scum) and also it served as an additional deflection onto george. except they're not even voting george. so. idk.

[Datisi]

if the deadline is getting scarier i will absolutely policy lynch inactive!george but if he starts posting and is super town then im gonna be reconsidering my read on datisi

why does george!town make you want to reconsider your read on me?

[Datisi]

if the deadline is getting scarier i will absolutely policy lynch inactive!george but if he starts posting and is super town then im gonna be reconsidering my read on datisi

why does george!town make you want to reconsider your read on me?

[Datisi]

because

i think my wagon being stagnant means theres scum on it

and if nots not george or luca then it would have to be you unless im just real stupid

another leap of logic? like it was just shown that you didn't really understand why "stagnant wagons = wagons on town with scum pushing them" (which doesn't even have to be correct frankly) but now you're *back* onto your wagon being "scum driven"?

also another vote would put you at L-1 ONE THIRD INTO THE GAME DAY (as you love fractions so much)

so??

[Datisi]

people have said that before about stagnant wagons how if the wagon is stagnant they say its scum driven
maybe i missed the point

this post made me think you were saying how you don't actually ~know~ what a stagnant wagon means or implies?

[Datisi]

Yeah just pretend 253 and 254 didnt happen

???

[Datisi]

gambler's fallacy? are you talking about their RVS vote on Luca? what does that have to do with discrediting monkey?

[Datisi]

I need like 4 of those tbh insomnia's been killing me the past week

[Datisi]

bugspray scum game for reference:

viewtopic.php?f=50&t=81414

From what I know from Bug's scum meta, is that they tend to put the shitposting gears to overdrive.

Also would like your professional opinion if these gears are in normal mode or in overdrive here

[Datisi]

After reading through, I think Hiraki is best tbh.

Please do elaborate and also give reads on other players n stuff

Ok goodnight

[Datisi]

That hiraki wagon is godawful goegr what are you doing

[Datisi]

Please do elaborate

and also give reads on other players n stuff

[Datisi]

Yall talk shit about bugs wagon being scum motivated but if hiraki is town there is at least one wolf on him

Discuss

[Datisi]

let's try to squeeze some beetlejuice

georgeeeeeee what are your readsssssssss

[Datisi]

What makes you say that?

the people voting him are {bugs, monkey, george}

• monkey had some questionable posts but it's pending on what he puts out when he returns
  
• i think i've already said why i think bugs is scum, plus the vote on hiraki with no follow up even when prodded is Bad(tm)
  
• george's vote seems to come after intentional or unintentional misreps and/or misunderstandings, the hop on seems wolfy, and the fact that they don't really seem to comment on bugs which has also been a major plot point so far is not giving me a good feeling

so yeah. the wagon is horrible. if hiraki is town and all three of you are town too i'm eating my scarf.

[Datisi]

georgeeeeeee what are your readsssssssss

you keep prodding like "has your read on bugs changed" but you never gave your own other than "the shitposting is not in scumrange"

[Datisi]

his vibes feel weird to me

Can you give an example? Also what happened to your Datisi read?

i don't think there was a follow up to this. i'll admit to being wrong if i missed it.

also, wasn't that bugs' first scumgame? saying someone's towny because their play is very (maybe debateable) different to their first scumgame is p bad reasoning. i'd be locktown every single game i play by that criteria.

[Datisi]

Ok. @shiki Do you think George/bugs interactions are necessarily town!bugs scum!george indicative?

Also, your reads in general?

[Datisi]

everyone (other than madoka) who isn't on hiraki is already on someone (bugspray or monkey) on the hiraki wagon. i think george's move from one wagon to another would make sense if the third wagon (monkey) was on his partner.

in the same way i am very wary of monkey scumreading hiraki but not pushing him, i am very wary of anyone townreading bugspray but not giving any solid reasoning for doing so, especially given the way they seem to be read by the rest of the game so far. i think any scum familiar with micro 911 would be tempted to keep them alive until endgame.

i don't know. regarding the first one, i think the first one could also easily be explained by george seeing that he's still voting bugs and that that wagon is picking up steam and attempting to defuse it.

and george later said that bugs is back to null and that he'd be fine voting there, that to me seems more like a scumbuddy trying to fake trajectory if a bus is needed rather than white/knighting

but all in all bugs to me is scummier than george so

[Datisi]

and there Luca goes again reading my mind.

That. If we had turned on George bugs would've possibly gotten towncred, at least in ~theory~. However I also see that as possibly scum!bugs/town!george deflection, which is an additional reason why I want bugs first.

[Datisi]

i think there's more worlds in which bugs is scum than in which monkey is. so this is calling for votes there. thanks.

[Datisi]

could be. could not be. i don't like it either way. still think bugs is much more likely to flip red.

[Datisi]

also, bugs has also been suspiciously absent, so eh.

[Datisi]

for someone who likes calling out logical fallacies, you sure don't mind affirming the consequent, eh?

[Datisi]

what the fuck is affiring the consequent i have never head of that one brb looking it up

scum loves doing compromise lynches, or

"if they're scum, they want to do a compromise lynch"
"hiraki wants to do a compromise lynch"
"therefore, hiraki is scum"

^^ not logically valid.

and not even getting into the fact that scum doesn't always want to do compromise lynches in the first place.

[Datisi]

I have no idea what you just said.

[Datisi]

VOTE: georgebailey going to put my vote on a red circle instead of a black one for obvious reasons

could you explain the diagram? because i genuinely have no idea what those obvious reasons are?

[Datisi]

i summon luca to save me from whatever 374 is

[Datisi]

because luca has my thoughts but he's more eloquent (and polite) in expressing them

[Datisi]

no, no, i read, and it's shit that sums up as "TSTBS". i don't have a smart response because it's 4:30am and i'm tired, so you get this unfiltered version.

[Datisi]

What do you mean he has your thoughts?

we mindmeld. i think a thing about a post, and then i see luca has already made a post writing out my thought.

[Datisi]

also, right now i am seeing the george/bugs team as well, considering george like asked bug a question that bugs doesn't seem to have an intention of answering

[Datisi]

too scummy to be scum.

[Datisi]

then i think i'mma have to close with "i don't see it, chief".

[Datisi]

Honestly, for Datisi, there's probably a perspective in which he is town — but i'm not feeling an organic town behavior from him. he lacks the paranoia that i'm looking for. i don't see why he thinks Hiraki is town, but he seems convinced to the point of offering hypotheticals that there's scum in Hiraki's wagon. he also seems to pocket people a lot.

Honestly, I'd have probably townread him if he jumped on my wagon. He's already townreading Hiraki. He thinks I'm "questionable".

from his 1v1 with bugspray, i'm not convinced he's town.
Datisi, I have a question for you:
In #115, you say bugs has a lack of content
In #220, you say bugs is just posting for the sake of posting
In #241, you say bugs is wrong about his wagon being scum-driven and he's wrong about his wagon being stagnant
In #333, you say bugs is suspiciously absent
In #349, you say bugs is illogical

these are your reasons for finding bugspray, right? because i don't think these are strong cases or exclusively scummy.
so what's your strong reason that he's the one to lynch today?

Again, this "he seems to pocket people" is starting with the idea I'm scum - > what does my behavior mean as opposed to seeing my behavior - > what alignment am i. What paranoia? It's Day 1. Also, again, the same can be said for you - i don't get why you think Hiraki is scum, but you're so convinced you're looking for potential partners.

Time-wasting TvT tunnels are a thing that exists. Us disagreeing on a read doesn't make you scum.

You're right that those aren't strong cases or exclusively scummy. But from what i know of bugs, they remind me of the times i saw scum!bugs play while they don't remind me at all of town!bugs.

[Datisi]

Aaaaand bugs still doesn't care to answer George's question. lmao.

[Datisi]

his vibes feel weird to me

Can you give an example? Also what happened to your Datisi read?

i don't think there was a follow up to this. i'll admit to being wrong if i missed it.

also, wasn't that bugs' first scumgame? saying someone's towny because their play is very (maybe debateable) different to their first scumgame is p bad reasoning. i'd be locktown every single game i play by that criteria.

No, they didn't answer this.

i think so, yeah
even if it's a style clash chances are it will drive the game forward with some more ai content to end this bout of "apathy"

pedit: no, madoka but it seems like you're definitely trying to convey some meaning and i'm bad at figuring that stuff out

Also, another reason I townread Bugs (and Luca because his idea is sort of the same) is that a lot their early posts were about generating content through conversations.

Well used to, answer the Hiraki question.

[Datisi]

Madoka, we're running out of time and your vote is still not in play. Who do you even want to lynch today?

[Datisi]

:::::::::::::::::::::::

Did i miss something?

[Datisi]

Some three hours.

[Datisi]

Some three hours.

Do you use blue light filters on your devices? I found that to be the reason for my insomnia previously.

I will have my vote soon.

Either that or something similar. I don't think that's the main cause.

Alright. Just keep in mind that the whole L-1 claim reaction to claim sequence is gonna be difficult on a tight timer, and i hate scrambling around last minute

[Datisi]

Oh ye, the idea that bugs is hiraki's partner seems like an enormous stretch at best,considering how much bugs is pushing him right now (and before).

[Datisi]

I still think Hiraki is Town and I still vastly prefer bugs. If y'all wanna force this dichotomy I'll be voting HEM.

[Datisi]

Luca, what's your opinion on Hiraki?

[Datisi]

Okay, same. what do we do here?

[Datisi]

actually let's do this.

@shiki @hiraki @george

all of you said you'd maybe be willing to vote bugs. would you please be willing to help us out?

pedit: yes that. thanks. please.

[Datisi]

L-1. Hiraki/HEM, can we get intent? Bugs, can you claim?

[Datisi]

Holden, I was playing in that game. You're missing the context.

Bugspray replaced in. At the time they replaced in, it was the second half of Day 1, and the town had already collectively agreed to be lynching between bugs's slot and Looker. They didn't exactly have a choice in who to push.

[Datisi]

Holden, I was playing in that game. You're missing the context.

Bugspray replaced in. At the time they replaced in, it was the second half of Day 1, and the town had already collectively agreed to be lynching between bugs's slot and Looker. They didn't exactly have a choice in who to push.

In which case then it's bad to compare it to here.

Bugs being forced to initiate a read for survival upon replacing in is not applicatible to a game where bugs was in during the whole game. It's going to come off as them sounding unnatural regardless if they do 1v1 and thus bugs really only had the tinfoil option that game.

Here, Bugs throughout the whole game has been dropping tinfoil/paranoia posts before a major wagon had formed on them. You can argue that the stagent wagon posts are in viture similar since Bugs thought they only had a few hours to live. Yet that does not explain the randomist in later application of it later by them.

That also shows a bit more why they are town because then it makes sense why they gave up basically after being locked into the 1v1 while here they are still, while not successfully, trying to solve the game.

did you like... uhh.... read? their case on Hiraki? tell me that shit is not fabricated to let them survive.

you mean the fact that it's "randomist" makes them town here? the point was that the tinfoil paranoia stuff makes no sense. no matter at how many people it's aimed at.

trying to solve the game. where? they're locked into their hiraki read because of BaD vIbEs from what page 5? they keep repeating about a stagnant/scum motivated wagon while it's obvious that they don't know the application of those words?

pedit: oh hi.

[Datisi]

you mean trying to push shiki for reasons i genuinley don't even understand or remember, or pushing george because of not posting? how is any of that town?

ok holden. ok.

[Datisi]

I've said that I think logicay they are still scum. My towncase isn't built upon that like I clearly stated.

My is removed from those notions and are built differently. I dont see neither a scum motivation for random shallow pushes with little obvious support assuming sxum!bugs teammate is trying to help them

where did you say that?

how tf is a hiraki push a "push with little obvious support"? Ok, do you see town motivation for random shallow pushes? Scum motivation would easily be crating content, because scum has to create it.

[Datisi]

As an extension, I will go further to say I do not think that anything that Bug's has posted is townie from logic based perspective.

All of their posts have either left me confused or did not satisfy my curiosity such as when I asked them to provide more credible logic in regards to their reads.

Rather, I think he is town based on observations I see from what they are posting.

you mean this?

ah ok i think i see what you mean.

ye, i guess we'll have to agree to disagree. it doesn't make "sense" as scum to do that. but if you're assuming that scum is always doing optimal/stellar plays is gonna lose you some town games. i've seen scum win games that they had virtually no chance of winning because scum did things that were blatantly shooting themself in the foot fpr the town to go "why would they do that if they're scum??? must be town." and those were intentional plays. players sometimes make bad moves regardless.

[Datisi]

ok i'm gonna finally ask, what is WoT?

As a side note since you are on the other side of the fence, how did you interrupt Lucas last post there? I still bugs me that he raises the meta point just to dismiss the context of it, but I admit I may be bias in reading it given my views on bugs

i'm gonna ssume you meant "interpret". i got the feeling you two were talking past each other. Luca was talking about the pure presence of the "towny" paranoia that you seemed to think is town!indicative for bugs. you replied with the two games being different becuase bugs was solely pushing looker vs pushing multiple people here. and then yall started talking about targeting "random players" and "manufacturing content" which i don't think had anything to do with the original point.

[Datisi]

Does that logic then follow that if Hirkai flips Town, I'm Town as well?

[Datisi]

I didn't say that I think that. I personally think I'm town regardless of what Hiraki flips.

I wanted to hear *your* thoughts on it. You seem so eager to lump me in as an "obvious Hiraki partner". What happens if Hiraki flips Town?

[Datisi]

just a neighbour?

[Datisi]

also, i'm p sure we stopped posting after i started asking questions and not being satisfied with your answers.

[Datisi]

Neighbours have a PT to talk in but don't know each other's alignments.

[Datisi]

I'm guessing from your comment after the claim that PT hasn't really yielded anything.

there was a chess game too. and i'm losing it.

[Datisi]

guess my question won't get an answer today. okay.

[Datisi]

oh no, i meant your answer about what happens if hiraki is town. but eh. probably doesn't matter tooooo much right now?

pedit: ah, ok. gucci. thank,

[Datisi]

the hell you mean assumingly?

[Datisi]

only the finest of gambits, huh?

[Datisi]

now i'm watching chesskid chess videos. thanks.

[Datisi]

does that mean that your earlier list of who's scum/town if bugs flips town is now invalid?

[Datisi]

ah crap, i think Micc is on. welp.

[Datisi]

aighty.

[Datisi]

No, I didn't see a point really. I thought about claiming the hood for any possible mechanical reasons, but i think it would've ended up being a lottery shot if it's +town or +scum based on the setup that i don't know.

[Datisi]

Well, well, well.

[Datisi]

Chill out with the votes. We're not rushing through today.

[Datisi]

Madoka, please explain your thought process when you got to a Luca/Hiraki team.

[Datisi]

Thanks. Because I'm sure you're aware your Hiraki vote pushing him to L-1 after you gave virtually no reads in the game and then confidentially declaring Luca/Hiraki doesn't Look Good in retrospect.

Pedit, ye gorge is pretty sus too. Not an excuse to rush though.

[Datisi]

someone else maybe to watch out for shiki? like when im trying to think of ppl in the game without reading it usually the people who im least likely to remember have ended up being scum. i know this definitely happened to me in micro 911 where amrun was a lurky scum

This, coupled with a quick bugs vote from shiki and their general towniness makes me think they're very likely town. Anyone disagree?

Shiki, do you think Madoka is more likely scum?

[Datisi]

I am leaning scum on bugs. I agree with all of the reasons Datisi has put forth.

This is also an interesting part. This is more of a note to check the progression later.

[Datisi]

Man why the fuck would I kill Hiraki when he was scumreading me end of day.

Townreading****

I get worried when this is the literally first thing you say upon daystart.

[Datisi]

Georgeeeee you're today's lynch claim in your next post

[Datisi]

GEORGE FULLCLAIM IMMEDIATELY OR I WILL HAVE YOU HANGED

[Datisi]

YOU HAVE NOTHING TO HIDE IF YOU'RE TOWN

[Datisi]

George this isn't how the game works

The more suspicious person claims first

That's you

[Datisi]

They're obviously softing being a tracker

Stop pretending you're dense and fucking claim

[Datisi]

Madoka?

[Datisi]

Are you serious.

[Datisi]

I was drowsy before but I'm wide awake now. T h a n k s

[Datisi]

Okay, we may be massclaiming today. I'll see. I think a Bodyguard claim is suicide for scum there, but I haven't worked it out yet.

[Datisi]

Damn, i got excited at the idea of being in the ez game ez life world.

[Datisi]

Also Madoka in what universe do you think Luca/bugs is a viable pairing i don't even get it.

[Datisi]

Holden, who do you think is scum?

[Datisi]

I mean ye, that's pretty bad. But I've seen town do stupid shit. So ya know, just wondering if you got anyone else rn. Thoughts on HEM?

Pedit: lol nice

[Datisi]

I just don't understand what was Madoka thinking either way. But I guess we wait until paper is done.

[Datisi]

Unvote. We're not rushing.

[Datisi]

I'm still waiting for the explanation of what in the even loving hell was that claim <3

[Datisi]

Holden, I've seen town do absolutely idiotic things like that before. If that is also the case again, and someone hammers, we're giving up literally a whole day.

Can this Town stop trying to kill itself for FIVE MINUTES?

[Datisi]

I know. I'd rather not risk 2 more misguided fellas go "hurr durr fakeclaim let's vote"

[Datisi]

While the number of worlds in which Madoka is last scum is great, the number of worlds in which George is fakeclaiming of the answer is a comical third option is still non-zero and I am not losing this game because we decided to act like headless flies and rush it.

[Datisi]

number of worlds in which George is fakeclaiming or* the answer is a comical third option is still non-zero

Or*. You get my point. I've been heartbroken before. Let's please take our time.

[Datisi]

I'm still thinking if there's a way for a scum BG claim to successfully endgame. I'm not sure i seeit, but agsin, it costs us literally nothing to stop for a bit and think this through.

[Datisi]

Oh god oh fucc they saw through my fake chess game double mafia neighbor gambit

[Datisi]

For the record I thought it was funny.

[Datisi]

Yeah. I do have some thoughts on Setup Specc(tm), but probably not the best idea talking about it before massclaim.

[Datisi]

If it's actually Madoka and bugs forgot them in their diagram I am done.

[Datisi]

Do you mean bugs intentionally leaving out ther partner? What's the gain for that? ~distancing~ in thread?

[Datisi]

Madoka, you gonna explain your fakeclaim and give us your claim?

[Datisi]

okay at this point i think a massclaim is in order.

[Datisi]

okay. whoever is unclaimed, claim in your next post. i'll be fullclaiming last.

[Datisi]

If I didn’t want a Bugs lynch then Bugs wouldn’t have been lynched, simple as that. I would never needlessly bus my partner D1 when there were two other players close to be lynched.

for the record, this is true. i expressed willingness to compromise on a different wagon and directly asked luca if he is too. he didn't budge. i was literally the only other person pushing for bugs.

i'm treating luca as a mason unless proven otherwise.

[Datisi]

Madoka, what result does a Neapolitan get?

[Datisi]

You can't quote it. But you can paraphrase it. For example, Cop checks for alignment. What does a Neapolitan check?

[Datisi]

Yeah lmao. Goon!Luca would not appear as a VT.

[Datisi]

Yeah, I'm currently working out a mech startegy, since if you get a result that someone is a VT, they're confirmed innocent. But for obvious reasons we need a full massclaim first before I get into it.

[Datisi]

my dudes i got a "Why Scum Is Completely Fucked - a three-part essay by Datisi" that will be dropping to a mafia game near you as soon as The Massclaim is finished

[Datisi]

I think I know who you are.

[Datisi]

Btw, Madoka, apologies for what I said earlier. The gambit was well thought out and executed. Just wish you came clean with it a bit sooner.

[Datisi]

We're massclaiming. I can brute force the game from there. Claim please.

[Datisi]

Also no lynch is objectively the

worst

possible thing we can do today. So we're not doing that.

[Datisi]

If this is truely the set up, then I'm looking forward to see what the last scum role is.

Hint: it's a Goon.

If all the roleclaims right now are true and shiki and HEM both claim VT, the game is balanced with the last scum being a Goon.

Also don't worry about counting numbers, I already got my essay ready. Just need the last two claims.

[Datisi]

Oookay. I think we can still brute force this, but in a different way. I'll have to rework the essay.

[Datisi]

Hi my dudes sorry I slept like 4 hours last night so I went to take a nap

I'm a basic Town Neighbor

I'm not a Neighborizer, I can't create hoods

Also gimmie a bit to get coffee and write a strategy

[Datisi]

bodyguard has a 50% success rate to be successful

Nope, Bodyguard has a 100% success rate. Any sorta randomized success rates are explicitly Not Normal.

[Datisi]

so, what i got so far. alive people are {Datisi, Luca, Madoka, George, shiki, Holden, Monkey}

claims:
Datisi - Town Neighbor
Madoka - Town Neapolitan
George - Town Bodyguard
Monkey - Town Novice PT Cop
Luca, shiki, Holden - VTs

confirmed Town:

Datisi - Neighbor with flipped scum also did you read Day 1.

Madoka - if Madoka were fakeclaiming here, the setup would've been a Town Novice PT Cop, Town Bodyguard, Town Neighbour vs scum Neighbor + possibly something that would've told Madoka George isn't Vanilla. Which is Much not balanced.

Not Mech confirmed but very very likely town: George (way he ciaimed) and Luca (did you read Day 1)

ok possible game plan.

Day 2 we lynch Holden. if scum, game over. assume Town.

On Night 2, George protects Madoka. Madoka checks shiki. Monkey checks Luca.

I am currently trying to figure out the way Day 3 happens based on claims and who dies. But every time it just seems like scum gets caught in the end.

Also setup-wise, I really think everyone's claims other thank Monkey's fit as a balanced setup.

Actually a perhaps better plan for Night 2:
- George protects Madoka. Madoka checks shiki. Monkey checks Madoka.

If Monkey claims to be roleblocked and have No Result, we still know Madoka claim is true since the setup would be completely broken if she was a scum blocking role.

However, if we all collectively agree that Madoka's claim is true, then Monke checking Madoka is pointless anyway. ugh.

[Datisi]

we could also have both Madoka and Monkey check shiki. even if we have a blocker, he can't block one kill the other because George will be guarding Madoka.

pedit: no pressure

[Datisi]

the problem is that i really don't think shiki is scum you feel me

pedit: well, first the Roleblocker would have to be multitasking, and even if he did, Monkey would still check shiki, and can't wrongfully claim chiki is scum because we would lynch him Day 4.

[Datisi]

Night 2:
George protects Madoka, Madoka checks Luca, Monkey checks Shiki.

Scum is forced here to fakeclaim a guity if impersanating a PR, or all are true and we find scum.

6v1 I die -> 5v1 NK -> 4v1 lynched the wrong person in that pool -> 3v1 NK -> solved game

the problem with this is that if there's a scum fakeclaiming a PR, they can theoretically claim No Result. But I'm really not sure if it matters because a lot of people are just so blindingly town that idk if this all even matters

[Datisi]

like, the Mech person in me is telling me to just lynch Monkey here because that claim doesn't make sense

but the last time i was like "hurr durr that claim doesn't make sense" i ended up leading the lynch on the town's last protective role which pretty much directly resulted in scum winning the game so i am a bit terrified of doing that again

[Datisi]

the problem is when i look at the Plays and stuff i don't think either of shiki and luca are town holy fucc

actually new idea lemme think it through

pedit: ye i'm thinking about Stuff

we have 2 and a half days left

i will figure it out

[Datisi]

i don't think either of shiki and luca are town holy fucc

i don't think either of them are scum* obviously

[Datisi]

@Micc

Is Mafia Neighbor + Mafia Neighbor normal? lmao

It's Normal, but highly unlikely.

[Datisi]

Monkey, you said it yourself that if bugs is scum that I'm town. What's my play here? Bus my partner from page 5? literally page 5? never agreeing to lynch either you or hiraki? and to top it all off i'm a scum neighbor with my partner. like, do you see how much you're reaching here?

[Datisi]

there can be all-town neighborhoods too. and if they realize they're an all-town hood, they fuck you up if you're scum. would not recommend.

anyway for the record i DID have a breaking strategy if Monkey claimed VT but he claimed Novice PT COP so fuck me i gues skjbfkhsiflhewp

[Datisi]

Oh yes all Town hoods are a thing, never heard of an all scum one though?

Has that ever happened?

Yes, at least once. and I remember seeing a normal review where that happened. let me see if i can find it.

[Datisi]

Aye

this is the review thread btw
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=123&t=76712
the reviewer shot down the idea of an all-scum neighborhood

and the person that preposed the idea is the reviewer of this game so he almost definitely wouldn't let it pass and also i can't believe i actually have to pulling this out

[Datisi]

luca i need a voice of reason

what do you think about all this

[Datisi]

Madoka/Monkey, did any of you crumb by any chance?

I remember seeing someone say that these roles all fit within the setup and the hoods. But the problem being both roles were claimed *after* the hood was brought to light. I don't think Madoka's fakeclaiming because the Town seems week then but i can't

[Datisi]

i made this meme

[Datisi]

i'm looking over this game anyway i can and like neap/bg/neighbor/4vt v neighbor/goon looks like a beautiful and balanced setup

scum roleblockers and such are actually not that common, esp in micros

and like even without that dats/luca/madoka/george/shiki all just seem SO TOWN (ye i'm including myself)

i just

aaaaaaaaaaaaa

[Datisi]

george won't be "predicting"

george will be on Madoka in like 99.9% cases unless a breaking startegy comes to light but i highly doubt it will

[Datisi]

if the last scum is a multitasking roleblocker (which i highly highly doubt) then them killing monkey is still ++town because monkey is still a suspect

then we're in day 5 with dats/luca/madoka/george/shiki and assuming madoka claims roleblocked then we still probably lynch shiki -> luca because madoka/george/me are still p confirmed?

[Datisi]

like unless george is literally a multitasking roleblocker that killed hiraki and blocked someone else and therefore knew madoka was bullshitting because he visited two people and she claimed he visited only one so he made up the bg on luca claim purely as to call her bluff??? i don't see how he can be scum here

pedit: because if madoka is scum fakeclaiming, then the setup is:
town bg/town novice pt cop/town neighbor/4VT vs scum neighbor/scum something that knew george wasn't vanilla (nea/vanilla cop) which is a broken setup

you could argue madoka is a goon that faked being a new on george but unless george claimed like literally the thing he did we'd lynch him and madoka the next day

and also imo town bg/town novice pt cop/town neighbor/4VT vs scum neighbor/scum goon is still broken

[Datisi]

we're suspecting that because there's a shitton of town PRs claimed

frankly if i had a 1-shot vig to make or break the game i'd shoot monkey because my first instinct is that he fakeclaimed a PR because he knew that a nea would get a guilty on him and *aslo* he's trying to open me up for lynching soooooo

[Datisi]

she claimed a track on you first. if you claimed VT, you would've gotten lynched, and she would too right after you. unless she was planning to rescind the gambit ANYWAY but then what was the point? idk

[Datisi]

ok question for the people of this good Town:

is there anyone in this town who would *not* be willing to bet the game on Luca being Town?

speak now or forever hold your peace

[Datisi]

ok lemme think this through. objecitvely: Datisi Town (neighbor w flipped scum), Madoka Town (otherwise the setup is mighty scumsided).

At this point I kinda don't think Holden is scum. Like, I get that he defended scum with an essay yesterday. But I'm not feeling it. Though it doesn't matter, Holden is the scummiest of the 3 VT's. Day 2, we lynch Holden.

George guards Madoka. Madoka and Monkey both check shiki.

Unless the last scum is a literal fucking Multitasking Roleblocker Jailkeeper (which... they're not), there is literally no way scum can pierce through George's protection and stop both Madoka and Monkey from getting a result on shiki.

Obviously if there's a guilty we lynch both in any order and goodnight. If there's an Innocent on shiki they're now also confirmed Town.

If George is the one that died during the night, last scum is in Monkey and Luca. We will have 2 mislynches left.

If I died in the Night, there will be 3 unconfirmed players (Luca Monkey George - i can't work out a Mech scenario that doesn't end in some sorta 1v1) but we're all betting on Luca Town aye?

If shiki dies instead same difference. Luca George Monkey are unconfirmed and every combination of actions ends in some sorta 1v1.

---

that novice modifier is giving me pause. like. i can't put my finger on it though.

can yall check my math here?

[Datisi]

No, I'm assuming me and Madoka are telling the truth.

pedit: hold on lemme go through that

[Datisi]

shiki, the problem with that is that an investigator could claim No Result.

...however, Madoka claiming No Result would literally be a clear on Monkey.

[Datisi]

because shiki didn't write an essay yesterday defending flipped scum. and bugs did push shiki. also it doesn't really matter if we switch holden/shiki around as long as we all agree on Luca town

[Datisi]

yes. we should. we don't have a finalized plan. and i'm still thinking about yoloing a monkey lynch through. i'll see.

[Datisi]

Madoka, the issue with that is, if Monkey were to flip what he claims, that is a Novice PT Cop, then scum DEFINITELY has an additional PR. and we have no clue what that is.

it would be a complete mess of a setup, and the more the day goes the less i believe in that, but theoretically it's still possible.

[Datisi]

ok lemme see. either monkey or madoka claiming a No Result on anyone is confirmation that the other investigative role is town.

yeah, the more i think about it the more i just don't see scum winning this unless there's some sorta mighty buffed scum PR but i don't think there is ughhhhhh

or unless luca is a scum mastermind but he is town.

ye however you slice it

george protects madoka, madoka and monkey check shiki

day 3 ends with either 2 unconfirmed people or 3 unconfirmed people, but one of those 3 is luca so it's basically 2.

if we collectively agree on me/madoka/luca town then this game is over, one way or the other.

[Datisi]

when i'm talking about "confirmed town" i'm talking by mechanics. if i were including by play both luca and george would be there.

if madoka is fakeclaiming, the setup is, in its least scumsided variant, a NovicePTcop/bodyguard/neighbor/4vt vs neighbor/goon. that's just... i don't see it.

besides, that would assume that Madoka blindly chose george to do the gambit on. What if george was a VT? scum!Madoka would've had to retract her claim anyway. then what? just brought insanely more attention to herself. i just don't see it.

[Datisi]

If I see another person call for no-lynch imma start swinging

That's literally the worst thing we can do

[Datisi]

Luca, I remember you saying that Monkey "towntold" after the hammer again, what was that about?

Pedit: not quite. No-lynch is like giving up a free investigation. Also possible No Result claim.

[Datisi]

I asked both him and Madoka for crumbs but got ignored.

[Datisi]

Luca, I agree with you that Monkey makes the most sense as scum right now. I truly do.

But this Day started with George making the most sense, then Madoka making the most sense. Do you see why I worry?

If we lynch Holden today, and both investigatives check shiki, we are guaranteeing there will be a conftown in lylo if it comes down to it.

Do i think Holden is scum? No. No i don't. But we're throwing out an optimal strategy because in this moment we are so sure on who the last scum is.

George keeps protecting Madoka until the rest of the game. Madoka and Monkey both check shiki. Monkey gets lynched tomorrow no matter what. Boom we have an additional clear for lylo if Monkey is actually Town.

Do i personally think it will come to that? No. I really don't. I genuinely think lynching Monkey here ends the game. But I'm like, genuinely pondering if it's right being so sure in my read to ignore the "best path".

[Datisi]

Uhh, Monkey, you can't investigate till Night 2. Was it really worth that much keeping bugs around so you could have a result on the on Day *three*?

[Datisi]

Actually you know what that makes even more sense for scum!you. Scum knew bugs was a neighbor with me. And that bugs would've been able to explain the red check as a hood rather than a scum PT. That's smart.

[Datisi]

Well shit son that's what I'm trying to figure out.

My issue is if you're novice PT cop then who knows what the last scum is. And i don't like uncertainty ugh

[Datisi]

Monkey, why do you think shiki is scum? Sorry if i missed it while skimming

[Datisi]

No? No Result wouldn't confirm the VT as Town?

Pedit: Monkey my neighborhood was claimed before the Day ended. Why would a PT cop ever investigate a confirmed Neighbor?

[Datisi]

Like, yes, you could've confirmed that. But that's a claim that would make absolutely zero sense considering you already knew you would get a positive result.

Pedit: i mean scum had to claim a PR because the Nea would be able to break the game

[Datisi]

No? No Result wouldn't confirm the VT as Town?

Pedit: Monkey my neighborhood was claimed before the Day ended. Why would a PT cop ever investigate a confirmed Neighbor?

Would I get no result? Isn't your neighbor PT open right now?

I was replying to Luca talking about you getting a No Result confirming a VT, which it would not.

You would've gotten a Positive result on me obviously.

Also people please stop mixing up Positive Result, Negative Result, and No Result.

[Datisi]

Also this "lynch me today shiki tomorrow" business is annoying. You can see I'm advocating for leaving you alive till tomorrow. Stop it.

[Datisi]

@Luca

Also people please stop mixing up Positive Result, Negative Result, and No Result.