Newbie 1996: GAME OVER

[HoldenGolden]

VOTE: HoldenGolden
sup

Spoiler:

We have unfinished business. This world is corrupt; tainted by your misdeeds. Do you feel good about what you did? Breaking an eldritch blood pinkie pact is no joke, and here you are. Your actions has consequences. Ramifications beyond the scope of mortal rational.

Do you know the space civilization of Uranus? No you dont because they all died this morning in a freak cosmic ray explosion because of what you did. Does that make you feel good? Being responsible for mass murder already? Are you crying in the inside because you know nothing, nihil, will ever fix what you have set forth upon the world?

VOTE: Humaneatingmonley

Caveat emptor, mors exspectat

[HoldenGolden]

#justiceforHolden

HEM do you prefer being turned into monkey bread or having your brains seasoned and cooked?

[HoldenGolden]

Holden - 2/5 - Monkey, Kirari
Monkey - 2/5 - Lucky, Holden
Lucky - 2/5 - Yooh, InWho

The next vote decides the leading wagon in a 3-way tie. Unfiltered, a mafia vote is almost never on scum here. If let an outside player come in and vote, we can analyze that in later day phases. If the voter flips rep, the votee is likely town. If the votee flips red, the voter is likely town. In other words, the voter and votee here are almost always TvT or TvS and almost never SvS. Your vote made the VC:

Holden - 1/5 - Kirari
Monkey - 2/5 - Lucky, Holden
Lucky - 3/5 - Yooh, InWho, Lucky

If you can't see how the new gamestate doesn't lend itself to an AI vote, then good username.

That's WIFOM at this stage of the game.

Scum can most certainly put their vote on their teammate assuming one of the wagons is their partner. There is not a high risk since lolhammers this early is very uncommon. You can maybe insinuate that newbie!scum would feel scared to do so, but then they can just vote off wagon so it does not really hold up,

Besides, its 1-1-3 not 2-1-3.

[HoldenGolden]

LL v HEM screams scum vs scum to me. Thoughts?

LL rubs me wrong for something that sounds forced to me. It is a major stretch for them to reach for such a conclusion that really at this given point is nothing. All of it is based on post lynching, which is odd for a townie to focus on.

HEM on the other hand I can see as town or scum here.

[HoldenGolden]

As for my meta,

(1) I focus on finding town over finding scum. Scum are caught via PoE.
(2) When I do pursue scum, it's in the form of truth testing. I take something, stretch it to it's furthest logical extreme, and let the town check it's viability through their feedback.
(3) I try to end RVS early.
(4) I will also be trying to end day one early, as after a certain point the length of day one begins to inversely correlate with the town's win percentage.

Well judging from the vote count you are doing pretty good for (3) and (4)

While I agree that RVS does outstay its welcome (even if I like shitposting), my issue is not so much you were trying to advance the game but doing so in a very unnatural way.

The logic you are using not only would only be applied after a lynch, but also is problematic as I earlier stated because we do not know which, if any, wagons are scum. The entire strat relies only on a confirm scum flip. That is not even getting into the fact that it is highly WIFOM due to the nature of it still being RVS.

Rather, it feels oddly constructed as if you are scum trying to generate content. The fact that you soft push Monkey for it when nothing has push the game out of RVS is scummy as hell.

@MOD Please when you get a chance fix the VC

It's Fixed.
Thanks Elmo.

[HoldenGolden]

Oh yeah this is a newbie game.

RVS stands for random voting stage. Exactly what it sounds like.
WIFOM = Wine in Front of Me. "is the dilemma that arises from trying to predict whether someone has made an optimal but expected choice, or a suboptimal but unexpected one."

Aka it is if I gave you two cups of different colors and told you one was poisoned whiling handing you one. I then ask if you want to switch cups. Debating rather or not I would keep the poison cup playing off the idea you will agree to switch is WIFOM

[HoldenGolden]

Really bad play if you are town to break a 3-way tie in which your are one of the wagons,

instead of letting a non-voting player come in and decide the leading wagon. Wouldn't the latter be reasonably AI once flips start coming out?

If you can't see how the new gamestate doesn't lend itself to an AI vote, then good username.

Is this not a manner of which to discredit and cast doubt on a player? That's the issue I have is the tonal. The first directly casts shade onto HEM alignment. The second is a bit more distant, but is still implying that town!hem should understand and strengths the first shade attempt through making it seem is a logically reasonable point.

I agree that LYLO is town's best chance. I think that the logic you are using is flawed due to the nature of the stage of the game at the point it happen. I would overlook both if you weren't simultaneously seeemilgy discrediting HEM

[HoldenGolden]

There actually could be scum in holden ll, I just don't know which is scummier between self meta and the push

What do you make over the interaction with HEM?

[HoldenGolden]

Not convinced Lucky is town so far.

Can you be more detail breaker of promises?

[HoldenGolden]

Really bad play if you are town to break a 3-way tie in which your are one of the wagons,

instead of letting a non-voting player come in and decide the leading wagon. Wouldn't the latter be reasonably AI once flips start coming out?

If you can't see how the new gamestate doesn't lend itself to an AI vote, then good username.

Is this not a manner of which to discredit and cast doubt on a player? That's the issue I have is the tonal. The first directly casts shade onto HEM alignment. The second is a bit more distant, but is still implying that town!hem should understand and strengths the first shade attempt through making it seem is a logically reasonable point.

I agree that LYLO is town's best chance. I think that the logic you are using is flawed due to the nature of the stage of the game at the point it happen. I would overlook both if you weren't simultaneously seeemilgy discrediting HEM

Lol. I wasn't casting shade on his alignment. Look through my meta and you will see me consistently arguing bad town play and incorrect reads are not alignment indicative. I was being a jerk because I hadn't had my morning coffee yet and was already dealing with obtuse play elsewhere, so I ended up taking it out on Monkey. On that note, I'd like to apologize to Monkey, because nobody has fun in mafia when people are being rude and making ad hominem attacks.

Hmm, I feel a bit better over the second instance I cited upon rereading. I think I be better able to judge you later after more posts in terms of what happen.

fyi to all players, I care little for meta especially considering this is a newbie game.

[HoldenGolden]

Rather, it feels oddly constructed as if you are scum trying to generate content. The fact that you soft push Monkey for it when nothing has push the game out of RVS is scummy as hell.

don't like this post

You are more than welcome to expand the central idea of this post

[HoldenGolden]

Because I see it as scummy also, and I know I'm town, therefore I understand why town might see it as scummy? This day one is going to be insufferable, isn't it?

Fallacies are in the eyes of the beholder

[HoldenGolden]

LL v HEM screams scum vs scum to me. Thoughts?

Side question,

What gave you the idea that was SVS over something like TvS?

[HoldenGolden]

Are you sure you meant to quote 76 Yooh?

I clicked on it expecting to see something but all I saw was SE responsibilities and remark about avis

[HoldenGolden]

LL v HEM screams scum vs scum to me. Thoughts?

Side question,

What gave you the idea that was SVS over something like TvS?

Seemed like distancing.

There was also something thrown in there about how scum would never vote eachother in that scenario, and they were voting eachother.

Can you show me in HEM posts during the exchange where you see that?

To me regardless of TVT, TVS, or SVS, HEM seem to be genuinely confused over what LL was proposing rather than knowing about it ahead of time as some sort of SVS distancing.

I don't understand why I'm not allowed to have gut pings day one and everything has to be a final read, but this day phase illustrates everything I hate about day one so I'm probably going to mostly peace out until day two.

Nothing has to be a final read? If you are town, Town has little to go off of and your initial comment has provided scum no ways really to lurk super well. In other words, if your town, you succeed in moving the game past RVS.

Aka: Town is going to be more skeptical to get more info out of people
Scum has to keep up as well and proposing statements too, even if it isn't super strong.

I sure as hell don't have final reads on anybody, nor expect anybody too. Deadline is quite long, and more abilities to get better reads will come like what I am doing to your slot now.

[HoldenGolden]

Woah woah woah, the vote is a vote of revenge for what that primate did to me! You know what he did to my 100% town tell? He made me put a bloody asterisk by it! 100%* is not the same.

pedit:
I guess what I was trying to say is why does HEM confusion sound fake to you. If you are gut reading it as SvS then thats something different.

[HoldenGolden]

Lucky does not look good under pressure. Does anyone feel like he's town?
I don't know if I'm tunnelling or not, but he says he's got no reason to change his votes — yet he scumreads InWho22 and doesn't vote him.
This is the kind of shit I tried to pull off as scum in my last game with Holden.

the InWho22 Scumread doesn't bother me. He finds it scummy, but I don't see anywhere where he pushes it into a bigger read. More importantly, It seems has more faith in his scumread on you than on InWho. That's what was off about you last game we played. Hiraki was your stronger read, yet you were voting Datisi while finding more reasons to scum read Hiraki. Here, he just mentions it in response to a question and hasn't explicit push them like you did that game on Datisi.

My issues are more tonal. It seems that he is a more factual player in the sense he likes going off of clear fallacies and the such. Day 1 is not that. So I can understand if I take that at face value that he finds day 1 terrible to play. There is nothing wrong with preferring that playstyle. The threat to lurk until day 2 and complaining about everyone demanding final reads is the issue. Im working in my mind right now if it was an intentional misrep (as he knows day 1 is more speculative) by scum to look like frustrated townie, or he is actually a frustrated townie.

[HoldenGolden]

Not much, since most players didn't actually react to it.

So what do you think about post #36?

Because I see it as scummy also, and I know I'm town, therefore I understand why town might see it as scummy? This day one is going to be insufferable, isn't it?

I disagree here. Town can townread - scumread someone with many reasons, with or without agreement the other, regardless their alignment. So, do you scumream Who22 here? What is the reason? In your PoV, have you thought about Kirari as mafia and you have agreement with her?

I do like the later half of this post for trying to get a firm stance from LL on inwho

[HoldenGolden]

If anything, it's more gut. But he drops it, stops pushing me, and proceeds to agree with Kirari on her scumread.

It doesn't follow that he's frustrated either. He claims he's used to being seen as scummy and he uses this to gain more insight. Here, he just wants to disappear from the discussion.

I justified that my actions were in my town range. I'm fine being viewed as scummy, I'm used to it. I don't try to prove that I'm innocent, I just make sure people are aware it's possible. If I'm town, I'd rather be in the middle of people's readlists than locktown because mafia has to eventually push town, and if I'm not locktown then they can push me, and since I know I'm town I gain more insight from that than other players can. Savvy?

Scum who made an early whammy by trying hard, and later got told by his partner to lie low?
You see why this bothers me, right?

Ok I see your point with 66.

[HoldenGolden]

UNVOTE: Monkey
VOTE: InWho22

Half a prod dodge because it's clear that this day is being driven by tunneling and I don't want to be a part of it. Half because 3 players have been given a free pass to do nothing because this day is being driven by tunneling. Cya guys again in another 24 hours, or day two.

This is 100% false.

So you think 3 people were given passes, yet you are just going to go bugger off? Not push them, question them, nothing? Not only that, but the fact too that this day phase is 10 days long at the most?

Who do you think is given a free pass?

I do not like the feeling of beating people with wooden sticks for information. Reminds me too much of childhood

[HoldenGolden]

This really brings context to your Avi. Look at those eyes. Those are the eyes of a monkey who has seen some shit.

Why do you think he is smoking in it too?

I would too if I knew an eldritch pinkie monster was gonna come for me.

[HoldenGolden]

Aloram, outside of LL, do you have any opinions on the rest of the players?

[HoldenGolden]

Why do you think I'm town based on talking about an unrelated game?

Holden knows my answer to this one, but I'm gonna let lucky answer that. I want to see what's on his mind.

I-I know that answer?

I mean, yes! I one hundred percent know the answer! Pfffttt, who wouldn't?

(I do but assuming is bad unless when its not)

[HoldenGolden]

I understand that post pretty well. It's missing articles is the only issue

[HoldenGolden]

The oxford comma just rolled over in its grave.

Theres a portion of the game I wish would post more.

[HoldenGolden]

The oxford comma just rolled over in its grave.

Theres a portion of the game I wish would post more.

And so did subject-verb agreement.

Don't forget sentence fragmentation as well.

[HoldenGolden]

I feel like thinking 'what if the person reading the game the same way as me is scum' is just about the least efficient way to play day 1

This is sound like "best practical play". Would you teach me more about this (For all SE) ? I get the point it might be not efficient, but following someone / being followed bring up a lot of paranoia. If this is not allowed to discussed, remind me when the game's end.

In essence, this game espeically on day one is a game of philosophy. The reason its tend not to be good practice to suspect your town reads is that it wides what is called a PoE pool. PoE is process of elimination, and is the strongest ability for town to catch scum. If you can get enough town reads together that you feel 70-99% sure of, you can win the game.

Now can you be wrong? Absolutely, but those players will most likely out themselves as scum at some point. A post you read day 3 sounds sketchy than it did day 1. That's fine to make a different judgement call then. But constantly thinking your townreads can still be scum nullifies the point of a townread.

This is also relating to the principle of octums razor, IE the simplest explanation is the likely solution.

[HoldenGolden]

In other news, I feel better moving Yooh to a townlean.

I don't like Holden's posts at page 7 and 8, but maybe I'm just too serious for this.

Feel free to expand the main idea of your post.

[HoldenGolden]

Fuck my bad. Just did my latin work so I didnt spell it right. The correct name is occam's razor.

[HoldenGolden]

Alo town - scum would be less likely to ignore questions from other players. He just outright ignored peaches question.

Can you explain your rationale here more?

I get the notion that scum tends to read the thread more closely, but peaches has been such a non entity it's not like Alo has exactly been punished for skipping a question.

I honestly forgot about peaches until last page

[HoldenGolden]

Inwho, several times in your read list you mentioned how somebody jumped onto LL with their posts. While you were looking for how someone was genuine, do you make anything of the content of the questions?
-----‐-------
I'm having trouble analyzing inwho's genuine read WoT (wall of text)

My main issue is how much leeway to give. Monkey most likely knows what I look for when I see any sort of day 1 read list. Normally, I would be alarmed over the some of the wishy washyness of it expect for that Monkey specifically asked for it. This as oppose as someone randomly dropping a reads list which sets off alarms for me. If someone posts a reads list on their own accord, they have all the time to write it. Therefore, if most of it is indecisive, it feels much more like scum making it up to appear like they are town/scum hunting.

By having inwho do it, it messes up me unintentionally. Inwho is more forced either way to respond to Monkey's request. Since the wishywashiness isnt extreme enough, I'm not certain either way. I'm WIFOM myself additionally over Inwho novice status as well.

What do you think Monkey about the response?

3b, you believe it is scummy due to the wishy washyness. How are you factoring in the fact it was requested by monkey into that read?

[HoldenGolden]

Sounds good.

It's more a reference to my last game where I pinged scum!monkey for posting a wall of mostly wishy washy reads unannounced. Most people sees a wall of text and either go townlean or skim through it. For scum, it's a easy way to pad out a long post to look like you are making content.

My problem is that my typical analysis method is failing me and I wish to confer in the rest of the thread for a way to approach your post.

Post game if you would like I can go into other things i look for during day 1, but i think you can understand why I'm not going to now

As to your theory question, i think you have a major fallacy in which it doesnt seem you consider if people have seemingly followed up on their questions. I wont say what about it is townie or scummy (as that's your job now), but that's a factor of genuine motivation.

Wishywashy is a given for both alignments. The more decisive you can get people the better. It is harder for someone to backpedal out of a read like that and creates a system of reads for later analysis.

[HoldenGolden]

I know it's an assoctive read, but why do you see scum equity between HEM and Alor Lucky?

[HoldenGolden]

Yeah crap this is probably holden+1, best chance peaches

Disappointing, I like town holden

You are welcome to expand the main idea of this post.

You've called me scum twice now without actually providing a rational. Makes me sad. Sad GoldenHolden is sad. But I'm HoldenGolden so I just smile.

Also have we played before? I dont think we have, so how do you know town vs scum me?

[HoldenGolden]

I'm celebrating Easter today because of weather, so fyi about activity and all that jazz. I may also be hung over.

---------
UNVOTE: HEM isnt on my scum radar
I'm not comfortable putting peaches at L1 yet given who is still off the wagon. With 7 days left, I dont want to rush her lynch for activity yet. We may get good info for further lynches by forcing more posts out of them (especially if they do end up voting scum). If she is town here, it is really easy for scum off wagon to justify the vote.

I like Alor more after that exchange with Lucky. Lucky word confusion case is strange as part of it is speculative on rather or not alor would copy the style of someone they beat them as scum.

HEM/Inwho i dont want to lynch today. Someone pointed out inwho might of been lamist ing (look at me I'm so town), but it doesnt come across to me.

VOTE: 3bounty
3bounty has been rubbing me wrong. I'll explain in a bit when I have more time.

[HoldenGolden]

Yeah crap this is probably holden+1, best chance peaches

Disappointing, I like town holden

You are welcome to expand the main idea of this post.

You've called me scum twice now without actually providing a rational. Makes me sad. Sad GoldenHolden is sad. But I'm HoldenGolden so I just smile.

Also have we played before? I dont think we have, so how do you know town vs scum me?

We've played I just can't remember which account I was on, maybe wagonomics?

Oh you are wagonomics?

I'm not quite sure how to handle that info now.

[HoldenGolden]

Wait 3b is at L1?
UNVOTE:
I'm not feeling great about the slot but I dont want the day to end yet given some questions I still have.

[HoldenGolden]

(expired on 2020-04-13 02:44:17) until peaches prod

this is my poe, it's this or pushing holden I guess

Why do I have to keep asking you old man for your read?

You keep throwing the notion that I'm scum yet refuse to out right push me, nor actually put forward a read. You keep putting me with werid associative reads where people are soft bussing my lynch? Floof had an alright reason to suspect me. You have basically been softing a push this entire game on me without actually explaining it.

You gain nothing by sitting there and throwing "holden is scum" as town.

[HoldenGolden]

From now on I don't answer questions. Since it's ok for Alo not to it should be ok for everyone.

What?

But he is asking for the double standard you did where you said Alor is town once for it, and scum now for doing it? This currently has nothing to do with Alo, but with the double standard.

[HoldenGolden]

Holden, let's double-team this guy

I'll question who I want monkey. The blood is still bad between us

[HoldenGolden]

While I think there is some equity in 3b/LL team, it's not for exactly what you posted HEM

A decent chuck of LL's read on 3b is built on associating him with Alo. Alo is still the lynch pin either way for why LL thinks 3b is scummy too. Not it's not entirely the whole read, but the last quote in that post was focused on how 3b was defending Alo while pushing peaches.

The issue here is the Alo lynch pin. The mislynch for scum!LL provides the backpedal out of the read on his partner 3b in this case. Additionally how 3b threw out throwing town cred to LL for his interactions with Alo for assuming dealing with him (?) Is wonky too.

Regardless, outside of post game swag, I dont think there is much point in trying to build a team right now.

[HoldenGolden]

HoldenBoy, so you agree LL is scum?

He's in the scum pool.

You and Inwho are strong town leans with a weaker one on floof.
That leaves:
Kiri/wagon is null along with Alo (the reasons I have to townread them is my read on 3b, so meh)
Scum leans are LL and 3b.
Peaches is in the obligatory plynch league

[HoldenGolden]

Why do I have to keep asking you old man for your read?

You keep throwing the notion that I'm scum yet refuse to out right push me, nor actually put forward a read. You keep putting me with werid associative reads where people are soft bussing my lynch? Floof had an alright reason to suspect me. You have basically been softing a push this entire game on me without actually explaining it.

You gain nothing by sitting there and throwing "holden is scum" as town.

I hate lynching charismatic and pleasant scum though

it makes endgame so dull

or maybe this is just me softing a cop check on you tonight? who knows, anything is possible with Kirari Momobami :3 :3 :3

Alright let's break down this into a science here.

I got 3 corn dogs kirari-senpie. If I shove one up my ass and eat the other one, where should the third one go?

This is a serious question that will 100% help me determine your alignment

[HoldenGolden]

humaneatingmonkey - (1)

-

LuckyLuciano - (2)

- Yooh, humaneatingmonkey

Aloratom - (3)

- Peaches, Luckyluciano, 3bounty

Peaches - (1)

- InWho22

3bounty - (2)

- Alo, Kirari Momobami

Not Voting (2) - Holdengolden, Alo

With 9 players alive it takes 5 votes to lynch.

Deadline is in (expired on 2020-04-19 06:15:00)

This is not a correct VC. Please do not go off this VC (alo is in two places, HEM is not delated, pretty sure there is someone missing on the 3b wagon)

[HoldenGolden]

Alright let's break down this into a science here.

I got 3 corn dogs kirari-senpie. If I shove one up my ass and eat the other one, where should the third one go?

This is a serious question that will 100% help me determine your alignment

I think you should plant it in the ground so you can begin growing a hot dog tree

Hmm, creative. Themes of rebirth and a newer generation. Conjures an image of green in my frontal lobes of deep, philosophical pondering.

Unfortunately you still answered wrong. Think long and hard about why you are wrong and write a 1500 worded essay about this experience.

[HoldenGolden]

Not much, since most players didn't actually react to it.

So what do you think about post #36?

Because I see it as scummy also, and I know I'm town, therefore I understand why town might see it as scummy? This day one is going to be insufferable, isn't it?

I disagree here. Town can townread - scumread someone with many reasons, with or without agreement the other, regardless their alignment. So, do you scumream Who22 here? What is the reason? In your PoV, have you thought about Kirari as mafia and you have agreement with her?

This feels like a townie way of questioning LL here. Floof could of easily been much more aggressive given the huge thread pressure on LL at the time. Further, he isn't skewing the disagreement to insinuate that LL is scum.

Being wrong is null.

Alright, my real problem is you're playing very passively when you were trying to get reaction. I don't even know why you never ask me asked so many questions. I get you're pressured, i get you're playing defensively, i don't know the reason though, but personally I don't like waiting and watching when I get null reaction.

While the latter have of this is more null tonally, I do like the stance here comparing the reaction of LL to what LL was doing. I feel his read progression on LL is relatively natural compared to others. Reads more to me as someone trying to extract more about LL out of trying to solve the game than scum looking busy.

Feel free to expand the main idea of your post.

I'm not seeing a problem. Can you elaborate?

When I read there, I felt like Holden were in the middle conversation, but not contribute enough in those pages. I know that in that time we're lacked of activity (include mine, I guess), but it still irritated me. Like, I think Holden can do better than that. So I conclude that mafia-Holden is doing it purposely or I was too serious reading those, which I think it is the latter.

I like this less upon review since he dropped it and it was admittedly wishy washy, but I feel the read on me is honest. Only Kiari really was scum reading me at the time, and for unknown reasons

[HoldenGolden]

Kirari, Holden actually has a good point against you. What's your beef against him?

He usually turns off the meming and starts playing faster and more normally as town. I think the meme/playing ratio here nudges toward scum. also the meming here feels a little forced tbh

We played a game together where I wrote gay erotica of the players day 2 and bet mylo on a pinkie promise?

Is there more than meta that your scum read on me is based on (Ik you say PoE, but analysis wise given my posts)? Have you read the two games I was scum?

[HoldenGolden]

Show me too where you think the memeology is forced dear wagon.

[HoldenGolden]

Somebody asked so to clear it up:

Me and Monkey have only played one game before this (mini blitz). I don't know much about him beyond that, other than how he betrayed me by breaking pinkie promise code.

Likewise me and Krairi (wagonomics) played together on my very first game on the site where we were both town. I however have no idea if he has read my games that I've been in since then.

[HoldenGolden]

My bad, for some reason I got Yooh name confused with Floof. Idk how, but it just happened.

[HoldenGolden]

Holden would my "case" on you be stronger if I reversed it and said as town you should be meming even harder :3

*insert forced meme response saying no here*

See, I'm helping you build your case by the minute. I should get a medal for that.

[HoldenGolden]

What do think then roaches about HEM in the later pages?

[HoldenGolden]

Pedit: Peaches

[HoldenGolden]

Damn holden even if you are scum here I'm like lowkey pocketed LOL

I'm simply irresistible

If you want it hun put a noose on it

[HoldenGolden]

You still havent answered my question my boy, you just flicked it off.

I put a lot of effort into those questions.

[HoldenGolden]

Rvs, and

then the non meme content in early game did not seem very townie

Holden is confused and requires more explanation.

You used a post from my early game though a page ago as the example of my most townie post in your eyes?

[HoldenGolden]

Holdengolden Has Been Prodded

I have been summoned out of bed

[HoldenGolden]

VOTE: Aloratom last post day 1. Lynch me or Alo, I'm done giving him the benefit of the doubt.

Posts like this fall under the umbrella of slayer's gambit. You didn't actually fake a guilty on alo, but tonally it's quite similar (hence joke about parity cop)

Slayer's gambit -- town fakeclaiming cop to get their preferred lynch, hoping their fake guilty hits scum but not actually knowing

No slayers gambit is just a VT acting scummy to get a lynch/as a reaction test to see if people bandwagon on their chosen lynch. It can be that, but I wouldnt say what he did was equivalent of a cop check anyways as it didn't actually lock down the thread, he stopped doing it, and reads more as frustration regardless if you think it's real or fake.

[HoldenGolden]

Somebody remind me to ask Cumberbatch (or cli2d) dude a question about the LL read after he fully catches up.

Whomever does can use my bad memory as a part in a scum read on me if you wish even.

[HoldenGolden]

Masonry: lucky, alora, 3b, kirari, holdengolden, who
N0 cop guilty: clidd

Ez game

VOTE: clidd

You do know there is no N0 cop check right?

[HoldenGolden]

I'm honestly fine lynching [3b, alo, kirari] atm. Cli2d made me ponder the LL read a bit more and I've concluded that I'm fine seeing him in day 2.

I honestly have passed allowing Kirari/wagon posts like that. I know they arent a serious player, but when I last played with them they displayed more motivation than what I'm seeing here. The whole Masonry read post to me feels incredibly forced and aimless. That's not even getting into the read against me which has diverged into do I meme alot as town now (yes I do). I tried jesting with them to see what they would do, and they havent impressed me much.

People are more than welcome to sway my opinion, but the more this day phase has gone on the more they have dunked down my list.

VOTE: Kirari

[HoldenGolden]

I will admit honestly that I'm having issues reading this game given how a lot of slots are freely moving up and down on my list. Hopefully cli2d is clearer to read so I can narrow down the PoE

Shame I'm not scum. I would of love this game.

[HoldenGolden]

Masonry: lucky, alora, 3b, kirari, holdengolden, who
N0 cop guilty: clidd

Ez game

VOTE: clidd

You do know there is no N0 cop check right?

Yes, but I am sheeping my town reads.

So you are sheeping your town read who just voted a replacement who only has so far posted an deep iso instead of your other scum read in alo?

You want to get a lynch off quickly, but it seems you really could care less who gets to hang.

[HoldenGolden]

I take one exam and suddenly the thread grows roughly by 33%

Welp there goes me relaxing this evening

I'll read and attempt to catch up with my burnt brain.

In terms of today's lynch, I'm fine settling with Alo/3b. I think both have some equity for scum with a personal preference for 3b, yet at the time of writing this I'm struggling to remember what Alo has done this game. I would prefer kirari, but I feel the other two would reveal more.

Pedit: yeah just a lot of people just posted so sure. Stop posting and let me press submit in peace

[HoldenGolden]

LL I want to let you know that I personally want to lynch you solely for your contribution to the influx of posts.

Ok everyone hold their pants. I see one post saying we have two l1s. The other is that the highest wagon is 2 1,1? What's the actual vote count

[HoldenGolden]

Alo were is your vote from monkey coming from as well?

[HoldenGolden]

Ok that's bittersweet. If there a sudden rush of votes I would of feel even better about scum being between alo/3b, but at least it does give some breathing room.

[HoldenGolden]

Wait LL are you still thinking that we shouldn't lynch 3b today because he had been playing badly if he is?

If so, i think that's not a good justification to keep someone alive day 2 who is most likely still going to seem scummy just because you think he cant "this bad" as scum. If he is town, mafia has an easy mislynch in him while still being a question mark for town. If scum, then he has more chances to work that angle.

Also Kirari and others I see your questions and I will get to them once this business wraps up with alo/3b (I want one to be in the position to claim)

[HoldenGolden]

So why do those things make him scum?

There is 300~ posts between the read list and his posts now? Are you citing his lack of explanation for his read on you (which I think from memory he has discussed you during that time period) or purely the switch?

Do you think that the flip on 3b was faked? Why would scum!monkey be more incline to do that than town!monkey seeing a reason why 3b is scummy after focusing on them? Basically, why is it exclusively scummy for what he did?

[HoldenGolden]

Monkey, chill.

There's reasonably discussing someone reads and then there is you being a mock Adam sandler flipping out. I find Alo's case sketchy as well, but throwing counter arguments out like that in tone wont help nobody but scum (unless I'm wrong on you being town in which case good job I suppose?)

VOTE: Alo insert rest of name here

I'm fine with this at this point for the time being.

[HoldenGolden]

I'm going to assume that HEM is going to hammer.

Alo claim please

[HoldenGolden]

FYI it is final week(s) for me so activity will wax and wane potentially.

While I do find Kirari scummy, the whole fakeclaim situation doesn't fit for me and I feel the most reasonable reason why Inwho was killed was because he was virtually town-read by everybody day 1 at some point with no strong scum reads forming against them. Scum would have had a hard time forcing a mislynch onto them without over-extending themselves to the point of being easy to read by the rest of town. While I understand the points raised by Cli2d, I find the outlandish and varied claiming by Kirari to not really be efficiently the same as a fakeclaim. The n0 cop and mass mason posts both feel sorta obvious that it was a jest while, upon reading Inwho's response, doesn't seem enough was leaked by the claim for scum!kirari to read inwho as a pr solely on that.

I will admit I had secretly pinged Inwho as a PR based on the overall tone they projected constantly, so I think it is possible for scum to pick up on the pr tells, thought with the townreads as well there is too much speculation to go off of to directly link Kirari to the kill.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Meanwhile I am quite honestly confused given how this day is going. I like the Kirari lynch, but the entire thread seems hell bent on lynching her. This is alarming because if she is scum:

1) her partner is death-bussing her:

Spoiler:

I do not see the need to bus her this early into the day phase. Scum has a massive tempo advantage as they might now have no PR roles to worry about. Kirari was in a bad spot towards the end of day 1, but not nearly bad enough to warrent such a drastic measure as this. While obviously the partner cannot white-knight scum!Kirari as that would throw away their lead if Kirari does flip here (as it be easier to associate the two together), no one really is cautiously supporting the wagon while providing reads on others to deflect the wagon off scum!kirari. 3b is really the only one offering any sort of counter aggression to the lynch, but shuts down Kirari's out on floof here:

Yoooh is probably town. I think highest hit % is on the Alo wagon. The build up was too fast to be all town on there.

It could be to provide distance, but I think scum!3b along with scum!kirari wouldn't shut down the wagon and force themselves into a position where they are left only voting Alo's wagon. That would mean they are going all in on pushing me this day phase which seems like a suicide mission as what the hell will they do post day 2 if they achieve it? Kirari most likely will get lynched and 3b wouldn't be that far behind.

The fact the game state is so comfortable in this situation when the entire scum team should be trying to pivot this if kirari is scum is alarming and points to kirari actually being town.

Even if you disagree and think Kirari is being death bussed:

2) scum!kirari being lynched is god-awful for scum:

Spoiler:

By having her flip red, the game becomes a lot easier to read. I would move up on peoples town list due to Kirari's read progression on me painting me as town. Her interactions with Monkey today cements him as town too and the casting of shade onto cli2d throughout the game most likely gets him ranked higher too. That makes 3 strong town reads that most people agree with leaving [LL, 3b, Floof] as the last possible scum pool. I think depending on how you read the Floof interaction right now, you could cross Floof off that list making the game nearly impossible for scum to win (unless for some reason Monkey/Cli2d as scum hard pushed their teammate today). Scum would be dying to try and move the lynch as a resort, and quite frankly that is not what has been happening as Kirari is the only one understandably fighting the lynch. Thus, this supports the idea that kirari is town here.

3) Town!Kirari is great for scum to mislynch

Spoiler:

Obviously any mislynch is good for scum, but a kirari mislynch sets up scum in a very strong state to win the whole game. I can see a plan where they mislynch kirari today and then push me off of the suspicions raised during today by both kirari and others, carrying them into mylo/lylo (last lynch). From there, depending on how day 3 plays out and if they lynch me, they might have enough ammo to easily win the game depending on who exactly scum is. This is speculative of course, but since I know my alignment, I do see this gameplan easier. I think too they can spin kirari's posts so far earlier today to even throw shade at HEM and in general remove stronger town reads from everyone's list.

Outside of that, town!Kirari is quite hard to predict so far, and given the high activity, could prove to be a threat to scum. Since the suspicious were decent EoD day 1, I can see why they would push her even if they haven't thought that ahead.

In conclusion,

despite the fact individually I find Kirari's posts scummy, the thread sentiment here makes more sense only if Kirari is town. I doubt scum is willing to risk such a high risk low reward gambit by death-bussing here when they are this ahead in the game, and it makes a lot of sense for town!kirari to be scum's preferred lynch here. Going off this, I think those who are either pushing the wagon without directly taking the reigns of it most likely is the scum driving this. I need to go back throughout today to figure out how everyone's push/read progression has changed before I can feel certain where the scum is.

[HoldenGolden]

The wave-assault, IE the multiple people pushing reasons why Kirari is scum after the wagon gets to around 3 votes~ is also suspicious too but I digress.
--------------------------
I started with Floof (Yooh) because he was the first on the wagon. I find the vote fine for reasons I will explain latter, but the latest posts have issues.

There is an ironic part of Floof's "why people voted alo" post which is that it only focuses towards the end of day 1 rather than focusing on the entire read progression up to that point. I notice this with my section of his post because it omitted previous posts leading up to that point like:

I'm honestly fine lynching [3b, alo, kirari] atm. Cli2d made me ponder the LL read a bit more and I've concluded that I'm fine seeing him in day 2.

I honestly have passed allowing Kirari/wagon posts like that. I know they arent a serious player, but when I last played with them they displayed more motivation than what I'm seeing here. The whole Masonry read post to me feels incredibly forced and aimless. That's not even getting into the read against me which has diverged into do I meme alot as town now (yes I do). I tried jesting with them to see what they would do, and they havent impressed me much.

People are more than welcome to sway my opinion, but the more this day phase has gone on the more they have dunked down my list.

VOTE: Kirari

and In general my TL -> null -> lynch pool progression as a whole (which is why it is ironic because I feel the read on my from it would be stronger regardless on floofs AI).

I have a concern emerging now with Floof is from the day 1 eod reads post. He admits that he finds the voting logic of the wagon sketchy (all four people not having valid reasons to vote) which is great analysis day 2 since we know that Alo was town. However, he does not develop nor seems interested in pursing the others while pushing it to lynch Kirari. This is problematic to me as the singular focus of Floof's post seems designed to ensure the lynch on Kirari while leaving doors open to push the rest of the Alo wagon day 3 with what seems to be a focus on me somewhat more given how he cited mine earlier.

This may just be my expectations for town, but I would expect a town!floof to be questioning the rest of players and me about their reasons to vote day 1. He clearly is presenting it as something that irked him enough to try and create a WoT (wall of text) during day 1, yet now seems more content with sitting on the information instead of proactively inquiring about it. It makes sense why he voted Kirari eariler today, but doesn't explain why he isn't actively questioning the rest of the players about it while securing the lynch on her.

@Floof/Yooh:

Who do you think is scum here alongside Kirari given your opinion on the alo wagon? Why did you only focus towards the end of the day rather than everyone's progression day 1?

[HoldenGolden]

i'm not hyperconfident that holden is town. i just don't see that you had legitimate reasons for placing your vote on holden there vs. other players or on the current wagon.

Holden just seems significantly less townie than in my last game with him, he has a lot less presence and while I've liked some of his posts and jokes mostly all it amounted in was a scumread on me which means he's like 0% read rate right now

.

He could still be town but right now I kinda feel like there should be 2 scum inside {Holden, Monkey, Yooh} and of those three I'd say you're maybe? a little more likely to be town

So if I'm correct on clidd/LL/3B as a towncore, then the game is solved by lynching in those three. Do you want to argue that any of those three are scum at this point?

Also you be pleased to know that since then i've both powerscum to the point of being town mayor and have played a shitty town game recently. I like to mix it up.

[HoldenGolden]

In fact I'll expand the question to the whole game.

Assuming Kirari is scum here, who is their partner given today's and day 1's interactions? 3b made since until he denied an out for Kirari.

[HoldenGolden]

VOTE: holden.

This is the wagon you wanted then, yooh? If so why did you have 0 reaction to me saying holden was in my solve even after you started pushing me?

Was this a reaction test for Floof/yooh?

[HoldenGolden]

Yoooh is probably town. I think highest hit % is on the Alo wagon. The build up was too fast to be all town on there.

You have seen me post now. Post now.

What do you think of the rest of the wagon on alo then? You admit scum is within that pool and seem to think I am scum while Kirari is town. What about the rest? Throughout day 1 you had alo pinned as scum as well, so can you explain how the build up was "way to fast" for it all to be town there in your eyes?

What do you make about today's lynch given how fast it has build up?

[HoldenGolden]

In fact I'll expand the question to the whole game.

Assuming Kirari is scum here, who is their partner given today's and day 1's interactions? 3b made since until he denied an out for Kirari.

Todays interactions. Definitely you.

D1 Kirari/Holden team doesnt make sense though.

How has my interactions today scream scum to you given I just started?

You were townreading Kirari until now where you are trying to team us together? What happen to your Kirari read?

[HoldenGolden]

In fact I'll expand the question to the whole game.

Assuming Kirari is scum here, who is their partner given today's and day 1's interactions? 3b made since until he denied an out for Kirari.

Todays interactions. Definitely you.

D1 Kirari/Holden team doesnt make sense though.

How has my interactions today scream scum to you given I just started?

You were townreading Kirari until now where you are trying to team us together? What happen to your Kirari read?

Where in D2 did I town Kirari?

Your first post you said scum benefits by lynching town Kirari. You said scum needs to defend scum Kirari.

You defended Kirari. Read your question above... the only answer is you. I don't agree with your first post in the first place so it's not a big deal. Just saying the answer to your question is you.

I misread 905, but

In post 820 Alo said it himself, our best option was to hammer. His last scum reads were HEM/Clidd. But then sheeps HEM's vote on Kirari and asks for Clidd to join the wagon. HIS TWO SCUM READS.

Hammering after that was not at all scummy.

was a defense earlier for them. I retract it though since I misread 905.
------------------------
So you think scum me comes in and writes a post trying to derail the lynch on kirari where I am calling myself scum? If I am scum with her, then I could of easily coast to the end game by bussing them solving the issue I had of scum hardbussing needing an endgame. If I am not scum with her, while WIFOMy, I had an easy mislynch in them given my day 1 read.

I'm going to go ahead and assumed if I had voted or kept my Kirari suspicions you would of still scumread me for the opposite logic, so dive deeper. Explain to me the scum!motivation more that you see in that post. It feels you are trying to justify a scumread on me rather than actually judging what I am posting.

[HoldenGolden]

Because if you had:

Scum has a massive tempo advantage as they might now have no PR roles to worry about. Kirari was in a bad spot towards the end of day 1, but not nearly bad enough to warrent such a drastic measure as this.

While obviously the partner cannot white-knight scum!Kirari as that would throw away their lead if Kirari does flip here (as it be easier to associate the two together), no one really is cautiously supporting the wagon while providing reads on others to deflect the wagon off scum!kirari.

you would see why your logic of "your post says why your scum" does not quite work

[HoldenGolden]

How was 4/20 day HEM?

[HoldenGolden]

Do you agree or disagree with the points I raised about the thread sentiment?

[HoldenGolden]

Floof consider the ramifications of your gambit for a second from the presepctive that kirari is actually scum here. Keep in mind mafia knows set up now.

1) kirari fake claims tracker and either knows their is no tracker, or baits the real tracker out getting good value out of the claim.
2) kirari can name anybody and you auto lynch them (which doesnt make sense) if they claim? How does their alignment matter at all? The friendly neighbor doesnt know the alignment of who receives the message. Basically, scumkirari gets a mislynch and possibly two if you follow your gambit and are town.
3) literally wont happen because scum!kirari gains more out of the other two options.

In the situation where you are both town, mafia gains even more set up knowledge and can narrow down the pool of the remaining prs depending on the set up we are in.

Your "gambit" is all risk as town with no actual payoff. Scum profit more since every situation leads to them gaining addtional mislynches then they otherwise would of gain. If you feel that certain about your read on kirari, then you dont have to convince them they are scum. You convince everyone else.

[HoldenGolden]

I get Kirari not wanted to take responsibility for outing a PR. But if you yourself said you got PR vibes from his posts (I assume it was when he made posts like the one quoted above, which is directly a result of Kirari's cop/mason stuff) then why would you at the same time argue that IW22 was not killed for that?

This is in response to one of 3b (on mobile so it's easier to do them one at a time)

My point is that there is many reasons why Inwho could be killed besides kirari fished out a response (in general had a pr tone, was universally town read, etc) making the night kill speculation much more WIFOM than I liked.

My pr read on inwho had nothing to do with kirari and her posts either.

Pedit: kirari what gives you the notion that we are in that particular set up though? How is that any worse than just vt here?

@floof take the night off then. Relax and catch some Zzzs. The thread will still be here later and I have found from experience walking away from the game helps solve it too.

[HoldenGolden]

The best plan is to avoid 1v1 and giving addtional info for scum to process.

On the off chance both you and kirari is both town, it locks the rest of us into it while scum gets off Scot free. Picking off the last pr role, if any, in the process.

If one of you is scum, then you are setting up more than enough jusfitcation for the other to plant their vote on you and potentially give scum another vote. It depends on how the partner reacts, but it may prove to be difficult to link the partner to whoever flips red.

[HoldenGolden]

You do realize that despite fun and games that you, kirari, can be said to have played an objectively anti-town playstyle this game though right?

You have to realize that I would be scum reading you if it wasnt for the way day 2 happen with the early rush to lynch you coupled with other issues I had with the thread sentiment.

I'm still processing the interaction as a whole (it bugs me but I'll admit I have issues discerning rather or not anger is real or forced), but ideas tend to sound great sometimes prior to execution. That's why everyone dies in the traps in saw. They dont think too much in the heat of the moment and then their head goes Boom from a reverse bear trap.

[HoldenGolden]

Hello. I'm procrastinating this game because it's developed into a tricky difficult game where my scum read feels like they're town, and that means I need to re-read the thread to be on top of it again. But I shouldn't have done that because Yooh has engaged into a weird no-payoff gambit that makes no sense as town or scum to do.

Suggestions on where to start are welcome.

So you are now town on kirari? What props the switch?

[HoldenGolden]

I'll stop talking about it, and suggest we all do since I opened up a can of worms. Since it is different playstyle choices, we can debate it end game if need be. I think at least for me, you and I kirari value different rewards for playing (you seem to enjoying staying alive and solving the game correctly while I feel honored to be nk d1 as a VT for example)

I need to read 3b posts lately more closely

[HoldenGolden]

@Holden, like I said, I do not agree with your points in your first post. I just answered a question based on what was posted. Do you have an answer for your question then? Besides 3B and apparently besides you. So there is probably no answer besides "Kirari is town". Is that what you were going for with your question?

The problem is the 3 points are subjective and assumes too much about what the scum team and town team should and shouldnt and would and wouldnt do

.

Almost everything in this game is either subjective or is presented in a subjective way (you still have to believe the cop claim to take in the objective information a cop check brings it.). You are right that I am speculating what mafia would do, but I can say the same and say you are speculating that I as scum would out myself by that post.

The besides 3b doesnt really work anymore since I cleared up the confusion as you did scum read kirari. So everyone before my post was pushing kirari. My question is about is kirari town. It's me trying to understand your analysis of what I've posted beyond "I disagree with it. You did what you said scum would do aghhhhh kill Holden blelelele" (this is a reference to sc2 not me mocking you)

What about that post makes you feel the speculation is scum, and more importantly since you seem to briefly think it, scum saving their partner? That's what I want to know. I'm fine with you saying my logic is wrong. I want to understand what you see explicitly scummy behind it In an actual analysis.

[HoldenGolden]

HEM is extremely scummy but I'd rather go with higher odds wagon. We have the D1 info I think we should use it.

Your Yoooh vote is useless imo, he was not on the wagon and not even scummy. There is little reason to lynch Yoooh at all.

Why is HEM extremely scummy?

You are scum reading 3/4s of the alo wagon. There can only be two scum, and you admited earlier that you arent sure if all of the scum is on that wagon.

This is why I want to see more your analysis. You seem hellbent on lynching that wagon because alo flipped town, yet you are questioning/pressuing people who you deem scummy (HEM apperently) to figure them out better. This is what I was raising with floof when he said something similar about the reasons everyone voted alo.

[HoldenGolden]

HoldenGolden, let's talk buddy.

I agree that Kirari could be town, if only that she's easily the best choice for scum to be a mislynch set-up. 3bounty just makes sense as scum. However, the tricky part is his whiteknighting of Kirari here doesn't lead me to believe that Kirari is "the mislynch" of the day. He's been saying "within Alo's wagon" but he doesn't consider Kirari at all. See why it's difficult? We can lynch 3bounty today, find out he's scum, and then we'll just go back to lynching Kirari. Does these thoughts makes sense?

I'm fine lynch 3b depending on his responses (the fact he is now scum reading off the wagon he is so sure has scum is raising more eyebrows)

My one issue with 3b/kirari tem is the fact that he denied stacking on kiraris proposed yoohs wagon earlier before the kirari v floof interactions. i feel like if you are leaving your partner to be the main focal point of town you dont narrow down your ability to support them if the plan goes wrong.

[HoldenGolden]

Yeah I'm not seeing the white knight you re talking about (I thought he did but i misread something he said) . Can you show me where the Whiteknighting in question is?

[HoldenGolden]

HoldenGolden, let's talk buddy.

I agree that Kirari could be town, if only that she's easily the best choice for scum to be a mislynch set-up. 3bounty just makes sense as scum. However, the tricky part is his whiteknighting of Kirari here doesn't lead me to believe that Kirari is "the mislynch" of the day. He's been saying "within Alo's wagon" but he doesn't consider Kirari at all. See why it's difficult? We can lynch 3bounty today, find out he's scum, and then we'll just go back to lynching Kirari. Does these thoughts makes sense?

I'm fine lynch 3b depending on his responses (the fact he is now scum reading off the wagon he is so sure has scum is raising more eyebrows)

My one issue with 3b/kirari tem is the fact that he denied stacking on kiraris proposed yoohs wagon earlier before the kirari v floof interactions. i feel like if you are leaving your partner to be the main focal point of town you dont narrow down your ability to support them if the plan goes wrong.

I said highest scum % would be on the wagon, but I am in no way certain of anyone's alignment. Are you saying that I am scum if I manage to find scum off wagon? Just because I said highest hit % would be on wagon? What?

It stands out to me since you definently have scum read HEM and Kirari prior to this and expressed a strong urge to lynch on wagon. Then you come post me explaining why the gambit is bad and throw out "this is 100% scum" read when earlier you felt yooh was a bad wagon.

I have no issues with you reevaluating your reads, but you have to understand from my point of view you have jumped around with your accusations without providing strong reasoning for two of them. Do you think vt town!floof ever gets that tilted by kirari to where that post comes out of him? Do you think the gambit is designed to fish out a remaining pr role? How certain given the rest of his play are you in him not being a pr?

These are the sort of questions that I want to see you attempt to answer so that I can understand your PoV better than your earlier statements like "hem is extremely scummy" which doesnt give me any insight

[HoldenGolden]

Man monkey goes for the buddy and chill post and now LL does too on monkey.

This is a buddying buddy's buddy world I'm telling you.

Also monkey you most likely are thinking when 3b disagreed with the pr fishing debate you brought up.

[HoldenGolden]

Hey, Monkey. You're town, I'm town. I'm not having fun. Let's just solve the game right now, the two of us, and ignore what other people say until we have the solve so I don't have to care about this game anymore. You down?

So you are going to ignore the rest of the game?

......even me *sniff sniff*?

[HoldenGolden]

See! Even...what's his name cumberman came back!

Feeling better cli2d?

[HoldenGolden]

It's nothing personal Holden, I just don't really want to play this particular game anymore. I'm having more fun observing other games than playing this one. I'd rather just go all-in on a solve now. I think I have an almost game-winning PoE for town. Worst case scenario without refining the PoE further is getting down to 3-player LYLO with the final remaining town player outside the PoE having a 50/50 decision with the two remaining players in the PoE.

None taken I'm just being dramatic.

What's your game winning PoE for us then so far?

[HoldenGolden]

I was talking to LL. Take your time cli2d

[HoldenGolden]

I dont doubt the claim really given its day 2 and I dont see it done in a gambit fashion for scum to close it.

Kirari you said it yourself why inwho was killed earlier regardless of pr discussion (being town read). Cli2ds up there for sure in terms of good kills for scum, but there is a reason why he wasnt killed.

I need to consider this new info.

[HoldenGolden]

Note¹: The way Yooh reacted during the discussion with Kirari is towny.

Can you explain this more cli2d when you get a chance btw?

[HoldenGolden]

Just to make sure,

Can roleblocker carry KP and rb in the same night in this set up?

I havent played with this new set up and cannot remember if rb can multitask

[HoldenGolden]

Ok, that is what I thought but wanted to make sure since floof had the same idea I had.

And yes, rb can kill and carry apparently. mafia having day talk is common on mafiascum.

[HoldenGolden]

There is a tinfoil reading of a Yooh/Kirari team too on the premise of outing the last PR I guess but I doubt Yooh's tone is faked there upon skimming through it again. Would be quite impressive if it is.

[HoldenGolden]

Ok can we move away from the "everyone is toxic" stance (which you know is false kirari from our wagonomics game) and focus on what is actually going on and the fact floof still wants to 1v1.

First business, ya or nay, LL claim is legit

[HoldenGolden]

Stay positive friends

[HoldenGolden]

@ Cli2d

The issue with meta reading kirari (which I've learned this game) is that they are more than able to change their playstyle to whatever they want. It pinged me earlier how different they were from their wagonomics alt I played with, but then after some reading this accounts playstyle is totally different in general.

[HoldenGolden]

A big problem I have with town!Kirari, is why did the wagon stall if he's town? If you want to argue that scum wants to avoid hammering, how come after I unvote and disappear for some time there's isn't additional pressure on him? It feels highly strategic for scum to support a town!Kirari lynch, especially if both are off the wagon. Do we ever think the scumteam is really Yooh + Monkey? Probably not. So what scum team of Yooh + X or Monkey + X makes sense? Btw, if Kirari is town, Monkey has to be scum imo.

It didnt stall at all till I posted my analysis of thread sentiment and even then the main focus of today has been kirari.

On the same page you did the peace out, yooh came in and had discussions about kirari's hammer vote and that's what started their interaction.

I dont think scum would be afraid to hammer there especially if kirari is town. Earlier in the day phase they would be a bit more cautious I think, but now that have plenty of ammo to justify pulling the trigger.

Honestly you could argue too that town!kirari is incorrect on their reads and/or at the same time helping mafia decrease town morale overall providing them a better chance at lylo

[HoldenGolden]

Worthy of note, Holden was absent early in the day phase for an extended period of time. During that time, he posted elsewhere on site. Pairing this with the mod sending out notifications that day 2 was up, I see scum motive for avoiding the game but not town motive. In any case, if town!Kirari, then town!Holden feels good because while there is scum motive for Holden not posting during a scum!Kirari wagon, it seems odd for scum!Holden not to post during a town!Kirari wagon.

So I'm scum lurking to gague town's appeal of my partner's lynch and then who decided to take the hard stance against bussing my partner who if they were to flip red, unlikely the majority of the thread, makes me look town given my day 1 interactions with them?

I dont post always in a particular game when I'm on because I'm not always in a mood to play them which can be a number of reasons.

[HoldenGolden]

and now everyone agrees!

this really feels like a machination.

No they dont.

I'm thinking about my town!kirari read while simultaneously catching up and ignoring my zoom class

[HoldenGolden]

Also we get it LL and kirari. Both of you are fine with the other losing etc. Etc.

We are either grown adults or maturing adults, let's accept it and move on rather than testing to provoke eachother mkay?

Pedit if 3b flips scum I'll happily get lynched as long as I get time to find his partner and it isnt lylo. He's been on my suspect pool for awhile.

[HoldenGolden]

Why is scum expected to play poorly when caught, especially when they are not mechanically caught? Do you think the same player who classified himself as the most capable player in the game would give up and AtE when there's a non-mechanically driven case against them?

because i've been in these situations before and i recognize that this is not normal behavior from scum at all. if the narrative fits that she has done the work for her roleblocker buddy, then she would expect a lynch today. she knows it's coming. she won't avoid it. that's 100% everyone believes, and i think scum!kirari would catch that. i don't know how to explain that besides the recognition.

So you are saying scum!kirari would of told her partner eariler to bus them which is exactly what happened for the first parts of this day phase?

I'm not quite sure I'm following your logic here? It may because I think differently about what scum!kirari would do.

[HoldenGolden]

In other words, because of my fake TR, the mafia's perception of Kirari's chances of survival were much higher than they became after I claimed. If you are trying to argue that Kirari would avoid the 1v1 with Yooh because her lynch is inevitable, you need to also realize that at the time of the 1v1, her lynch didn't look inevitable and I even said I would wager the entire game on her being Town, meaning they had at least 1 townie who they could count on to defend her.

I think you are over estimating your unvote post.

It hardly read as you giving them a town read and more temporally stepping back because of a lack of tonal response to being voted. While certainly putting some resistance towards you lynching them, I dont think it would alter much of mafia perception since 3 of [cli2d, monkey, yooh, 3b] (whoever isnt scum) were still strongly voting them.

[HoldenGolden]

Ive been waiting to gain more out of 3b before this, but I've been thinking cil2d based off his interactions.

First thing first is the lack of focus on analysising cil2d vote on alo despite either scum reading the rest of the wagon (HEM and Kirari, and he has soft SR me) or town reading them (LL). In fact, he has been silent for the most part about cil2d come day 2 outside of agreeing with his pr read arguement (which he says later insist worth talking about).

More standing out to me through is his day 1 interaction with peaches. I can see the later half of day 1 after cil2d replaces in going either way with his sheep vote onto cil2d. His peaches read progression is more important to me.

Need more content from peaches but I'm slight scum lean. Her RVS vote seems a bit non random with the question to Alo.

To open up there is a slight scum lean onto peaches despite the need for content. This is objectively fine. You could argue adjectival usage of slight being more likely to come from scum throwing an eariler sl on their partner, but that's a can of worms. This is included because of what he does post this read.

A peaches lynch unfortunately doesn't give me anything moving forward, but there is a chance that she herself is scum so there's that.

This is a wishy washy post if you read into scum!peaches. This is at the same time voicing support for lynching peaches (the later half) while simultaneously saying the lynch isnt productive for town. It makes sense for scum!3b to do this for later needs since at this point peach is growing into a bigger question mark given activity. Later when/If that happens, a post like this allows him to gain some cred while not having to push his partner day 1.

Also continuing is the trend of the scum lean not being serious on peaches. Here are two posts where 3b clearly associations some suspicion with peaches but gives ways to get out of it as need be (need more content, she's a bad lynch, etc.

I gave that post about peaches giving me no info because I was considering to change my vote to her, it was more thinking out loud.

Again, downplaying his own strength in the scum lean.

Meanwhile while this goes on he diverts attention to alo.

Well it doesn't help that the one player peaches is engaging has her on ignore.

From now on I don't answer questions. Since it's ok for Alo not to it should be ok for everyone.

What?

But he is asking for the double standard you did where you said Alor is town once for it, and scum now for doing it? This currently has nothing to do with Alo, but with the double standard.

Yes I gave him the benefit of the doubt and even a townread for ignoring peaches question. But then he votes me for IGNORING HIS QUESTION (which I did answer btw). So that is not only hypocritical but extremely illogical.

But peaches also asked a second time, which he yet again ignores, so now unfortunately I will have to be that guy who tries to tunnel it out of him.

Town cred to LL for putting up with him for so long and voting him ahead of me finally seeing it.

This is what is called a chainsaw defense. A chainsaw defense is when you defend your scum partner by attacking another member of the town, usually but not always being the person who is leading the wagon on your partner.

Here not only does 3b do that but also justify the potential of furthering his read by saying "I have to be the guy that tunnels here". This gives him an excuse to drop his peaches scum lean and fully pursuit Alo. Alo who before hand he had a townlean on and only change it due to alo seemighly hypocritical logic.

Rereading, the tone sounds force and design to draw attention to this. I feel town!3b wouldnt overreact this much and push further more questions to figure out the root of why alo didn't respond instead of auto calling him scum.

InWho22 * - neutral
Peaches * notme0 - neutral
LuckyLuciano SeserOneHK - town
3bounty
Aloratom - scum
Yooh * - neutral
Kirari Momobami (SE) - town
humaneatingmonkey (SE) - scum
HoldenGolden (SE) - town

So we get to here. 3b null reading peaches solely because of a proxy reason of alo not answering a question. This is before peaches requests a replacement which implies 3b was still thinking peaches would be his scum partner later in the game, thus needing to keep her alive.

Couple that with the lack of focus on serious focus on cli2d and LL tracker claim most likely being legit stopping him from being paired, I see 3b pairing nicely with cil2d

[HoldenGolden]

Worthy of note, Holden was absent early in the day phase for an extended period of time. During that time, he posted elsewhere on site. Pairing this with the mod sending out notifications that day 2 was up, I see scum motive for avoiding the game but not town motive. In any case, if town!Kirari, then town!Holden feels good because while there is scum motive for Holden not posting during a scum!Kirari wagon, it seems odd for scum!Holden not to post during a town!Kirari wagon.

VOTE: Holden

If there is a tracker then mafia would know. Holden waiting for last to post is scum, I am willing to bet he is the one that did the night kill too.

If he knows there's a tracker it makes sense to wait it out before posting or else he'd be posting in vain due to a successful track on him.

Who's my partner then?

And why would I wait longer when it was clear that kirari was being pushed instead of anyone stealth pushing a track on me? I could of come in according to your logic right after LL voiced concerns about kirari as I would know then I wasnt tracked?

[HoldenGolden]

I love it how when I dont post in town games I get scum read for it yet when I purposely lurk in scum games I never get called for it

[HoldenGolden]

Wait LL are you talking 1260 about kirari always being town? I ctrl f your ISO and that's the only instance I sae you posting that kirari is always town.

Pedit: no I didnt I addressed it first thing

I can see the later half of day 1 after cil2d replaces in going either way with his sheep vote onto cil2d. His peaches read progression is more important to me.

Which if you really want more analysis of it im more than happy to provide why that is NAI to me.

[HoldenGolden]

"Typical mafia response to a case, shrug it off without reading"

[HoldenGolden]

Wait LL are you talking 1260 about kirari always being town? I ctrl f your ISO and that's the only instance I sae you posting that kirari is always town.

Pedit: no I didnt I addressed it first thing

I can see the later half of day 1 after cil2d replaces in going either way with his sheep vote onto cil2d. His peaches read progression is more important to me.

Which if you really want more analysis of it im more than happy to provide why that is NAI to me.

So I was intending to sheep Kirari and get my partner lynched? How is that not important to a 3b/Clidd pair? And how is a read progression on a SHEEP vote more important?

Because here is why:

A sheep vote is very noncommittal vote as scum. Literally you can get out of it by saying I now have reasons to suspect X and am no longer lost enough to sheep. You made it very clear that you didnt want to vote peaches eariler, so the sheep vote makes sense. This keeps with the rest of my thought process that you kept peach pseudo scum leaned early on in the since that you threw shade at her with providing ways to get out of it.

The reason I think it is NAI though is because the counter argument that you would provide a more suitable stance to foster more town credit if you scum rather than sheeping. It's a weaker arguement once factoring in the replacement and the voting dynamics, but I am still considering it. Hence why I didnt elaborate on it.

[HoldenGolden]

Holden also has a perfect scum spot on the Alo wagon.

Are you going to answer my question of who is my partner or are you going to keep throwing shade at me to discredit my case?

Because countermeasure: off wagon for scum is just as good as on wagon.

[HoldenGolden]

He def appeared super townie D1. Which explains why town is so uncoordinated atm. We are dealing with a strong scum game who knows how to come off as town.

Ok who's my partner then.

Town is uncoordinated, but I feel that's a result of both the tracker claim, day 2 tone in general, and scum now panicking since tracker claim has made everyone expand this POV in a short time.

[HoldenGolden]

Holden also has a perfect scum spot on the Alo wagon.

Are you going to answer my question of who is my partner or are you going to keep throwing shade at me to discredit my case?

Because countermeasure: off wagon for scum is just as good as on wagon.

Will have to take look a bit later. But you def seem more than capable of bussing or distancing so not sure "who is my partner" really means anything to what I am reading of your alignment right now.

I saw this after I post. I will take that praise even if it is wrong this game.

HEM was the person I was looking for you to say since eariler you said kirari and me didnt make sense and you had the scum read on him eariler. When you feel like it, feel free to read my ISO and do that case if you see it still.

What is your stance on cli2d and floof? I ask the later given you said 1071 (I think) never comes from town POV.

Do you think kirari can be town here despite you thinking scum was fishing for pr roles day 2?

[HoldenGolden]

Ok, now that I am done with the draft workshop and my obligated school duties, I am here.

I am a bit worried how the game has slowed down again post LL's claim in the last 24 hours. This game-state of uncertainly and the lack of a clear wagon is advangtious to scum right now.

Everyone, today, must without question town/scum read Kirari and act accordingly. If Kirari is to be lynched, then it needs to be today for it to be the most effective instead of, worse case, us lynching a town and having to sort them out Day 3 in mylo. If scum does flip later, we can debate lynching Kirari if need be. This needs to be resolved now rather than later since we are facing 2 and a half days almost with no clear coalition of votes on anybody.

I am in the boat after much thought that Kirari is still town post LL's claim. The reason why I had debated it since my thread sentiment post is the interaction between Yooh and Kirari. This first pinged me as a TvS interaction is the tonal impact of it felt off in my gut. Upon rereading, I found Yooh's tone more and more believable making me question my read on Kirari. After thought, I think it makes more sense that kirari is town there and that I am most likely wrong about the interaction being TvS.

My vote for today's wagon is 3b. I already provided a detailed potential team pair with him, however individually I do find him scum regardless. His reaction to my case is partially damning as his initial response reads off as a shading attempt to shrug off my case for a reason that is clearly false if my case was actually read. I expect town!3b, if genuinely interested in scum hunting, to question why I seemingly omitted that point and understand my logic behind the day cli2d sheep vote. Especially since by his own admittance his scum pool is quite large (Me, HEM, Kirari, and now Floof given his 100% cannot be town read on the gambit). This highlights the overarching issue with his game play thus far. He seems more interested in opening up avenues to scum read people rather than narrowing down his scum pool for the most part.

VOTE: 3bounty

[HoldenGolden]

Additionally I think the game-state has slowed down since comments like LL and Kirari's have told scum (regardless of if you think one of them is scum) that town is going to have a hard time consolidating into a lynch target.

[HoldenGolden]

Moreover, since my mind is currently fragmenting thoughts due to writing 20+ pages in the last 24 hours, I do prithee yonder to this post.

Worthy of note, Holden was absent early in the day phase for an extended period of time. During that time, he posted elsewhere on site. Pairing this with the mod sending out notifications that day 2 was up, I see scum motive for avoiding the game but not town motive. In any case, if town!Kirari, then town!Holden feels good because while there is scum motive for Holden not posting during a scum!Kirari wagon, it seems odd for scum!Holden not to post during a town!Kirari wagon.

VOTE: Holden

If there is a tracker then mafia would know. Holden waiting for last to post is scum, I am willing to bet he is the one that did the night kill too.

If he knows there's a tracker it makes sense to wait it out before posting or else he'd be posting in vain due to a successful track on him.

LL explained the purpose of why I want people now to take hard stands on kirari, leaving kirari as a possible question mark day 3 gives scum an easy win assuming they pull a mislynch off today. This is exactly what 3b has done post claim. He is pushing the notion that I am scum hard despite the fact he is scum reading Kirari. That latter read does not seem to be changing given his voiced sentiment. If he is concerned about Kirari, why not vote him off now when there is pressure on him? Instead he is voting and pursing my mislynch because it sets up scums wincon day 3: Kirari. It wouldn't be bad if he simply gave the read without voting as then I can see it as him trying to look pass kirari today for the last scum (from his PoV). Yet, he did vote and now is pushing my lynch while still having 2, by his own admission, extremely scummy people (yooh and HEM), and a scum read on kirari.

[HoldenGolden]

Kirari, what do you think then about my pairing of 3b and cil2d?

Are you willing to move your vote off LL and not waste it this day phase? (*insert emotional response here to convince you to vote outside of LL*)

[HoldenGolden]

Right now I need content from clidd and he knows I need content from him. Whether my vote is on him or not is irrelevant.

I can put a vote on 3b if you want more pressure there but my order of interest is clidd-->HEM-->3b atm, so I don't dislike your solve but I'd like to know why you remove HEM basically

I can provide a longer analysis on HEM in a bit post dinner, but the general tldr is while he is left in my PoE, his posting style and certain posts ping me as town. Can he be associated with 3b, sure. However cli2d makes more sense.

Moreover, having just played with scum!monkey, I do notice a difference in tone where here monkey is more emotional it seems then his cool and collected appearance in that game. It's only that one game of course, but it is worth noting.

[HoldenGolden]

Post 1311 makes the most sense to me. Haven't seen a counter to it besides:

- That can't be true because who is my partner.
- That can't be true because you (3bounty) are scum.

Those are definitely not reasons for me to be changing vote.

A) expect there has been more. I directly commented on my afkness to LL in response to his post which is what your logic is explaining. Meaning that this representation of my points are wrong.

B) your arguement and LLs has a major fallacy is that regardless of my alignment, there is no actual defense that can be provided. Both town!me and scum!me cannot provide evidence of why I wasnt posting outside of my word for it. It's not like I can post a picture of my brain saying "I dont feel like playing this game right now" now can I? As such, your arguement cannot be rebuated in a logical manner not because its soild, but because logically speaking there is no manner to logically defend it. It's all claims on my end.

This is why people argue that lurking in general is anti town and not necessarily scum. I'll admit that there is more to it than the normal lurker read, but it still has the same issues at heart.

C) this still doesnt jusifty the reasoning why your voting me than kirari who, since you for sure are believing his claim due to your reason on me, LL have already expressed needs to be lynched today. Hence why I'm calling into question your posing of multiple people being scum. According additionally to your own logic, floof is 100% scum expect in a narrow instance. See the issue?

Provide your stance on kirari. Town or scum.

[HoldenGolden]

LL, I am willing to comprise on my stance if need be to secure town some lynch today regardless of how the stances turn out if you agree to do the same.

Town needs a lynch today.

[HoldenGolden]

I'm still a bit busy but:

I guess HEM/3b world means that HEM feels good shielding his read of 3b as distancing by focusing on LL, who he wants more. HEM focusing on LL also would match the tendencies of strong scum players,

who often push non-VT towns very early since they notice something is off about their play.

So strongwolf HEM can maybe scumread 3b and give himself room to re-evaluate later as he hopes that LL will be the lynch and flip green.

This is relying on the premise scum!monkey is able to read LL as a PR early on. I dont think there is enough to support this theory. I at least was hot on LL as well which if we are going with the notion monkey is scum is more than enough reason to why he pushes LL. Early game play to put suspicion while in ton I guess you could read into LL fit into quitting the game as some sort of pr tell, but that feels flimsy.

That does being up the fact I havent considered how HEM reacted to LLs statement to quit till day 2 to 3bs similar outburst day 1. I'll work that into my analysis.

[HoldenGolden]

In the meantime, can you prehaps explain why 3b is at the tail end of your pool? I'm struggling to see his actions as town and would appreciate any analysis to the contrary.

[HoldenGolden]

Yoooh town

HG scum
Clidd neutral
LL town

What happen to your Yooh is never town sentiment over 1071?

I am here, but I have had a quite mentally draining day. I will attempt to do as much as I can tonight.

FYI, it is currently tied L-1 between Kirari and 3b. My vote on 3b from eariler has not been factor in yet

[HoldenGolden]

I would appreciate a flash-lynch on 3bounty for the way he interpreted his read on Holden. I still don't understand how from a town perspective he doesn't notice Holden's effort on D2.

However, Luciano is deadly serious about this lynch. He claimed to increase the strength of what he wanted to suggest. Jesus.

Effort is a dual edge sword and it is at least consistent given his progression. The fact it relies on the Tracker WIFOM (which i already gave reasons why it is flawed logically speaking) is somewhat concerning but meh.

His flip on Yooh is more alarming if we are debating his progressions.

[HoldenGolden]

Also it is ironic that Cil2d meta pull describes scum!monkey as emotionally driven when my interactions with him in the mini has lead me to the opposite conclusion since he posted in a relatively calm manner and I only suspected him d1 due certain posts.

Anyways, let me show you kirari what I was talking about with town monkey. Gimme a second

[HoldenGolden]

Jesus, I have the hammer.

Please do not hammer I am in the middle of writing a long post and would like to allow people to think it over regardless of how you vote during the night phase.


Also false Kirari, My vote on 3b I beleive came before you reached l-1 and is just wrongly placed. I voted him yesterday i believe.

Cli2d Ill respond about the meta later. TLDR: I was merely remarking about the differences in how we view his meta which is more of a remark about my general feelings of meta which is that it is subjective and not as set in stone as some make it out to see.

Back to work

[HoldenGolden]

My thoughts of HEM

Intro: My overall thoughts on HEM are retrospectively has I haven't deeply reread his ISO as a combination of RL and other more interesting avenues up until this point. I have outline these thoughts earlier, but any case lets dive in. I will be coloring the sections by how they influence my read.

I: The LL interaction Day 1

While I can see equally a world where town or scum monkey pushes LL (as I did agree with the push since I found LL suspicious at the moment as well), I think the way he handled LL's response to waiting to play till day 2 townie:

Spoiler:

[SE Hat]
Lucky, I get why being under pressure is hard. Unfortunately, being suspect #1 is just part of the game. We all get our turns. A central wagon on D1 will give us all the information we need later on for interactions and reactions.

If you're town, you also get to jump at the people who feel scummiest for being at your wagon. During at this town, you might start town-telling, and you might convince the players to leave you alone for someone better. (or leave a legacy of texts for later days).
If you're town PR, you will be forced to claim at L-1 — and that's avoidable.
If you're scum, this is an opportunity to sniff out PRs and set-up future lynches by interacting with the town.

Inactivity is substandard play, no matter your alignment.
[/SEhat]

However, if you're going to handle this by prod-dodging and waiting for the next day, there won't be a next day. You

will

be flashlynched. I will personally lead your flashlynching. Why? Because you're still my number one suspect, and the game will still be in stand-still without you playing the game with us. It's not like I'll just throw my hands up in the air and say "well then".

Ah okay, I understand. Can you still respond regardless? I don't think I'm being as unreasonable as you imagine me to be.

I'd ask you about your reaction to #104, or why it took you so long to vote InWho22, but let's change the subject if you're not interested in changing my mind:

Why do you townlean Kirari? What's your reaction to 3bounty saying that we're SvS? What do you want to hear from InWho22 moving forward?

As it can be seen above, HEM's stance on LL's falking was innocent in the since he wasn't attempting to frame the flake as scum trying to lurk off the pressure. Scum!monkey could of easily have kept the pressure on LL to not only hide from scum hunting else where, but also attempt to secure a day 1 ML. HEM's attempts to defuse the situation and even allowing LL some breathing room by requesting his views on both his scum read (Inwho), town lean (Kirari), and other interactions in the thread (3b's svs comment) comes across as a townie trying both to simultaneity gain more info on their scum read while leaving room for enough curiosity to reread LL. In other words, I see HEM's comments here displaying a town motivation to solve the game. Although he does go back to the scum read in post 181, I still feel the prospect of relieving pressure, even if it was temporarily, is most likely townie.

Slight counter-argument:

Spoiler:

Votecount 1.05

humaneatingmonkey - (1)

- Holdengolden

LuckyLuciano - (2)

- Yooh, humaneatingmonkey

Aloratom - (2)

- Peaches, Luckyluciano

Inwho22 - (1)

- 3bounty,

Peaches - (2)

- Kirari Momobami, Inwho22

Not Voting (1) -

Aloratom

With 9 players alive it takes 5 votes to lynch.

Deadline is in (expired on 2020-04-19 06:15:00)

With a VC like this, it's safe to say that we hit scum early. I feel good about my LL read. Plus, with the unlimited chances he had, I'm still not convinced LL is town.
I'll spend the rest of the day pulling reads from people. At the end of the day, I hope people will sheep me or I will throw a

h i s s y f i t

.

Locktown: InWho22
Softtown: Holden, InWho22, Yooh, Kirari
Scum: LL
I need more: Peaches, 3bounty, Aloratom

I'm not gonna lynch Peaches just for inactivity. We have other ways to learn their alignment.
If anyone not LL wants to convince me they're not scum, I'm happy to engage.
If anyone wants to convince me that InWho22 is scum, I'm also happy to engage.

I will admit however that this post does have some glaring issues, namely the precedence of using AtE (throwing a hissyfit) over LL's wagon. Normally I would feel some town vibes from not agreeing to the lurker lynch (peach), the fact i'm not sure of Cli2d's alignment complicates it (however, it is not on equal pairing to 3b's treatment to the peaches slot). Ultimately, I think this post does have some points for both scum and town monkey. The town points being his locking of town in inwho (which consequently locks scum of the lynch especially since little countermeasure to it was offered in general). I would say his tunneling while sorting people into only town read positions is towny, but his 3b read shortly after comes and the tunnel is extended to cast 3b and LL as partners. In other words, he pivots too quickly out and utilizes the tunnel in capacity to strengthen his read on 3b (intentionally or unintentionally) nullifies the tunneling up to this point coming from town and leaves it NAI.

II: Initial Tunnel Pivot:

Spoiler: It messed up somewhat but here it is

Spoiler:

3bounty

From what you say, I can see from your style that you're thinking out loud. What you don't do is follow through — only taking the safest vote on Peach, the inactive player. You said you're struggling to find decent scumreads, but you've really thrown at least 3 scumreads throughout the game: Me, LL, and InWho22.

You went from Alo being town (#225, #263) to scum (#345), for the same thing — ignoring people's question. Either I'm not understanding your process, or you don't have one. I'm betting you don't have one. If you do, I want to be enlightened.

What's good, 3bounty?

UNVOTE: InWho22
VOTE: Aloratom

I decided to do some research as to whether he always speaks in a manner that is intentionally obfuscating. After all, he did say that he is communicating the way he is this game deliberately (195). The first thing that popped out when viewing his topics was a mafia PT: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=94&t=82227. I decided to look there first, because if there is ever a time you would communicate clearly, it's with your known teammates. He speaks very clearly there. He also speaks very clearly in the game itself: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go. Of note, is post 12 of the mafia PT,

That's fine with me.

The only Intel I have is on geraintm. He's back after a long break. He's from Wales, so his posts are GMT. He doesn't post during weekends. He was scum in a newbie game I just finished. When he talked it was in a confusing manner.

I don't think it was wholly by design. There was a lot hemming and hawing. Talking but not saying anything. I'll be interested to see if he does that as Town. If so, he's a good lynch candidate.

I looked up that newbie game: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=81784. Mafia won a flawless game. While I think geraintm's communication was clearer in that game than Aloratom's is here, he both found it memorable enough to point out in a later mafia PT, and this game he said his confusing language is deliberate, which is backed up by looking at other games he's played. It looks to me like he is trying to imitate a characteristic of a player who perfect gamed him as scum. I don't know why he would imitate this as town, especially when he said in the mafia PT that if geraintm spoke confusingly he would use it to try and mislynch geraintm. There appears to be plenty of motive to imitate this as scum.

The fact that he is both capable of intelligibly interpreting what people say, and communicating eloquently both reinforce my earlier belief that his readings of my statements were deliberately off-base and made in bad faith. More damning that making his own speech more difficult to decipher is choosing to misrepresent what other players say.

Actually that unvote should be on Peaches. You know a player has been flying under the radar when you forget they are in the game even after you vote them for activity.

I looked at 1994 first, and the way you speak there aligns with the other games of yours I have seen, and does not match the way you speak here. Before I waste my time looking at the other games, why don't we cut to the chase. You are deliberately structuring your sentences differently this game than in your other games.

Why?

For the reference of the other players in the game: Posts 108, 112, 113, 149, and 204 all represent areas of the game where I feel that Aloratom's interpretation of what is said is far enough off-base to be beyond any sort of standard deviation that could be derived from any of his games I have looked at up to this point. That is to say, I believe his capacity to correctly interpret statements is proven in his past games. It is very possible for him to misunderstand something here or there, but his misunderstandings have been frequent enough, and egregious enough for me to consider them intentional.

Further, since Aloratom wanted me to look at some of his other games, and I did assuming he would come off as deliberately obfuscating in those as well, yet be town (spoiler: this is still the only game of his I have seen where he acts this way), I have come to realize that 175 is a lie.

Reference:

Newbie 1994

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p11693906
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p11693960

Of note: 3b played with Aloratom in that game yet neither called out Aloratom for 175, nor for his strikingly different approach to the game than what was displayed in 1994.

pedit: Aloratom, I'm not going to start arguing with you that you are behaving differently in this game than in your others, when you know that it is true. I asked you why. You chose not to answer, and instead to deny it. Either I'm crazy, or every other player in the game is going to be able to look at any of your other games and see what I see. You can either explain your deliberate change in approach to the game, or you can be lynched. I have reason to believe that the change is scum-motivated, based on the fact that you were perfect gamed as town, and your takeaway from that game, as indicated by the mafia PT of yours I posted, was that one of the scum spoke in a confusing way.

I humored you and looked at 1986. You still speak eloquently there, unlike here. You were lynched despite breadcrumbing. Breadcrumbing is not the same as acting in a disorienting manner. It's 2:20am here, I'm going to bed. Hopefully you are lynched before I wake up.

I dislike day one associative analysis, but for the sake of vanity I'm going to say that 3b and HEM make the most sense as partners for Aloratom.

Peaches wagon has always been, and still is, a push for activity. 3b randomly coming in and presuming Peaches is today's lynch and publicly abstaining is scummy. Alo trying to pivot the wagon from an activity push (284) to a lynch indirectly by arguing there is value in the lynch (316, 325, 326) is scummy. If you really want people to pressure Peaches for activity, then you don't start justifying the lynch before she meaningfully contributes. If Alo flips red, which he will, then Peaches is green and the other scum is not currently on Peaches wagon. This is true because of Alo's desire to lynch within the wagon when Peaches flips green. Inevitably he would be lynched at some point for being on the wagon as well, but if he gets a second mislynch by pushing people for being on the wagon after he justified it, then it will be 2 town for 1 scum and mafia will only need 1 more mislynch to win.

3b on Alo

Spoiler:

Alo town - scum would be less likely to ignore questions from other players. He just outright ignored peaches question.

Alo town - scum would be less likely to ignore questions from other players. He just outright ignored peaches question.

Why would they? Isn't denying town information straight up anti-town, or am I missing some philosophy here?

I am sure there are players out there who can play scum and be anti town, but majority of scum would avoid being anti town.

Alo town - scum would be less likely to ignore questions from other players. He just outright ignored peaches question.

Can you explain your rationale here more?

I get the notion that scum tends to read the thread more closely, but peaches has been such a non entity it's not like Alo has exactly been punished for skipping a question.

I honestly forgot about peaches until last page

Would scum miss the question? He legit posted 10 mins after the post without answering it. I am not saying it's imossible for scum to do such a thing but less likely.

Alo town - scum would be less likely to ignore questions from other players. He just outright ignored peaches question.

Why would they? Isn't denying town information straight up anti-town, or am I missing some philosophy here?

I am sure there are players out there who can play scum and be anti town, but majority of scum would avoid being anti town.

So it is pretty much just NAI?

No. It is giving me town alignment. I give up on this point. Make of it what you will.

3b seems pretty insistent on defending Alo simply because he missed a question. Is it really that easy to get a townread from 3b? What about all of the questions I didn't answer? Why does this apply only to Alo? Further, his reasoning for townreading Alo is essentially that scum wouldn't play anti-town. The scum wincon is literally anti-town. 3b's reasoning here can be used to townread open-wolfing. It can be used to townread any scum-motivated action. It's incredibly weak, and doesn't support the strength of the read that I'm gathering from his desire to defend Alo.

Hmmmm. Nah sorry can't see it. Alo is probably town. You're correct I played 1994 with him, but I subbed in halfway through day 1, and the game had no day 2 so. Not much content there at all, dont expect me to be an Alo expert, I am just as confused as the rest by some of his posts in here.

Rereading some of InWho22's recent posts, starting to get lamist vibes.

3b admits to being confused by some of Alo's posts. This both should degrade his town read, because he does not understand where Alo is coming from, but also lead him to support my case against Alo, in that I provide reason to believe that the confusion that Alo is causing - which 3b admits he sees as well - is both intentional and scum-motivated. For some reason he blindly holds a townread on Alo. Not only that, but he begins to redirect focus on InWho22 without explaining what he saw that is giving him lamist vibes. It looks more that he's trying to deflect pressure off a scumbuddy than go after InWho22.

Need more content from peaches but I'm slight scum lean. Her RVS vote seems a bit non random with the question to Alo.

At other points in the game he literally says that there's nothing to be read from the Peaches slot, yet here he scumleans her. Why? Because she targeted Alo in her first post.

Spoiler: Yep still screwy

3b on Peaches

Spoiler:

Need more content from peaches but I'm slight scum lean. Her RVS vote seems a bit non random with the question to Alo.

As seen before, 3b believes Peaches may be scum.

InWho22 neutral.

Are you still satisfied with your rvs vote then?

Those aren't meant to be satisfying in the first place. Who is your top scum read and why?

I meant more you haven't changed votes, so the question is do you still think your vote is where it's most effective?

Struggling to find a decent scum read I will change when I do find one. Do you have any scum reads?

4 posts later and he is keeping his vote where it was in RVS because he doesn't have a good alternative. Not only is he scumlean on Peaches, but he believes we need more activity from her. Both of these are consistent with switching his vote to Peaches, and inconsistent with his actual course of action. Afterwards, he deflects back to Kirari, in the same way he deflects from Alo to InWho22 in a later post.

A peaches lynch unfortunately doesn't give me anything moving forward, but there is a chance that she herself is scum so there's that.

A peaches lynch unfortunately doesn't give me anything moving forward, but there is a chance that she herself is scum so there's that.

I don't understand what you're getting at here. If two people jump on and lynch Peaches, and she's Town, we get a lot of information out of that.

I get nothing, she has made two posts to you, that is what I'd label as not enough information.

These are posts I've already gone over in my prior analysis. The entire wagon on Peaches is for activity. 3b himself said we need more activity from Peaches. Why is her operating under the assumption that we are planning to lynch her? Why is he distancing himself from a wagon that isn't even supposed to be pushing for a lynch, and why is he distancing himself from a wagon that he himself is scumlean on? The scum motive would be to distance himself from ALO, WRT my analysis in a prior post that if Alo is red, his partner is not on the wagon and Alo's play indicates as much.

I mean, LL has more reason to vote for 3b here at this point but he votes for Alo for... get this... confusing language.

I'm 100% sure that this guy is scum

Holden, let's double-team this guy

I do not care much for the pivot of the tunneling on LL here. I call it a pivot because it is showing Monkey scumreading someone else allowing him to move from the LL read as either AI, and thus, pivot. I think the 3b read was fine, but the tone is off and is quite geared to the assurance that 3b is scum (the eariler post too where he goes from I see 3b as town, wait something is scummy, to the above it sounds sudden and somewhat smuggy). This is mostly reflected in the "enlighten me" and "whats good 3b?" comments plus the ......... with the LL reasoning post. Moreover, inviting me to double team him when I was reading 3b in a scummy light seems made in an attempt to push the read unnaturally. Rather than get an answer for his question, he wants to pressure hard on 3b. I am hard pressed to really see this in a townie manner.

In a side note, Monkey this game has made multiple attempts come to think about it to "work" with me with one for sure during the LL claim pages. Perhaps later I will expand this thought to see if it warrants more investigative insight. Another side note, I do not think 3b and Monkey is a team for this reason. Scum!monkey did not need to reflect any further and come to his own conclusion why his partner is scum given just having inquired about the scum reads on his partner.

The following posts with Yooh and Kirari are much more tamer and more align to solving the game again, asking questions and wanting his town reads (Kirari and me) to explain our townreads on Yooh. This is ultimately NAI as I can see town and scum monkey doing this. The distinctive difference through between how he does handle these versus the 3b. Ultimately, I think the initial pivot is scummy due to the 3b interaction. I do think town moves away from the LL tunnel no matter how much conviction they have in the read, but the tonal aspects of the 3b flip and follow up with the team pairing doesn't reflect how I expect town to do that. Especially when there is already pressure on the person in question.

III End of Day

1 Play [/u][/b]

Spoiler: Voice of wagon target

Gamestate is: Both Alo and 3b is on L-1. 4 people are willing to vote on Alo (Holden, LL, Clidd, 3b), 4 people are willing to vote on 3b (Monkey, Holden, Alo, Who22). Kirari, Yooh, and Holden are the swing votes. Holden prefers either a 3b or an Alo lynch. Yooh would not prefer to lynch both 3b and Alo. Kirari has kept vague about her desired lynches.

Yooh, Holden, and Kirari should weigh in so we can get a final candidate to get a claim and a lynch from.

If I have enough time, I would start a wagon on Kirari. I don't think I currently have enough willpower to sustain that.

To be clear Alo, you're not willing to vote 3b anymore? This is important because I'm trying to move the game to a state where we can get a claim going and still have time to think about it.

clidd's ISO on you gave me a good perspective on town!Lucky and you have given context on why you were off in the first half of the game (being in a simultaneous frustrating game). I also think it's most probable that you're town from the backwards logic that you're putting a lot of crosshairs on your back. I could be underestimating you here, but I'm just gonna go with what I felt after the re-read.

This is the real first taste since HEM stated he would reread the thread to get a better since after an LL wagon stop becoming realistic. I can understand the progression up to this point since it is keeping in measure for his earlier reads. His reasoning for focusing on the two wagons is to provide town enough time to get a claim and inquires about Alo's stance on 3b because of it. I don't find his LL reevaluation either as forced as I had somewhat similar experiences reading cli2d's post as well. I find his handling of Alo's confusion over Monkey's read on him somewhat townie though the following makes me pause.

Spoiler:

Although it's interesting how

HIS

read of 3b progressed from scum to confused town.

That's a stark lack of progression for me...

I was wrong in that he was willing to vote for 3b, so we can put him on the swing vote pile. He wasn't really scum reading 3b — he was just "starting" to doubt it.

I don't like this as it keeps up the trend from the 3b pivot. Although I understand why Monkey was reading Alo's posts (to gather his stance on a 3b wagon) I feel the way he went about raising concerns about it feels more like a shade attempt. It makes Alo's stances seem much more worse than they are, and even after correcting himself, monkey still uses ""'s around starting to cast suspensions into Alo's thought process. Yes, I am reading into adjectival choices and the aspect of tone. This is what scum does subconsciously, and what I have to write lengthy essays about anyways. Though this handling at first seems townie, his before mention display of Alo's actions undermines it.

That's actually a fair point, Yooh. I've been thinking about it now. Alo has no reason to just put weight on Bounty's wagon, since Bounty and Alo can't be SvS. I believe Bounty is more likely to be scum than Alo, but I really want to get a claim going since it's clear the majority wants to lynch Alo thus it would happen anyway.

After Alo claims, I'll do an ISO on both Bounty and Kirari. I think if Alo is town (and if he claims PR here, I'll believe him), Bounty or Kirari is most probably scum.

Yes, I said I'd do one earlier. Yes, it's been a lot of hours. Yes, I'm super lazy.

I feel the reevaluation can go either way. Scum loses ammo after realizing they were incorrect so meh. NAI. Alo does present another round of confusion about Monkey's read on him which Monkey handles like before. A switch to Kirari comes in:

Spoiler: NOT IN ORDER FYI, QUOTING IS HARD OK

what the fuck are we doing? we think this guy is town and we want to hammer?
we have enough time for a kirari wagon. that's {holden, me, yooh, inwho22} and someone else we can convince.

Guys, Kirari is scum. VOTE: Kirari
We don't have to choose between 3b or Alo, we can consolidate fast for a Kirari wagon.

Town!Kirari made sense in as much as she's willing to be transparent with her reads. That opinion is diminished every time she's asked to define her scumreads, and her takes are lackluster — despite the numerous content made here that people can raise their eyebrows to. I'm talking about Holden and Clidd. And now Alo, who she was willing to vote over 3B despite being in her mason block.

Lucky alora and who for hard town I think

I thought I found town in monkey but not as hard, let me double check

early hard town reads, but not enough scum reads, only a vote parked in the inactive player. i'm seeing a lack of town motivation here.

ngl for 5 pages of all the people I said were scum talking to each other those 5 pages did not help my reads nearly as much as I would have liked them to

VOTE: peaches anyway it is time for content pushes so I'll join this

instead of "helping his PoE" by asking questions and indulging on her suspicions, she votes for the inactive player that's obviously not gonna fight back.

I think he's town tbh but I don't have a better wagon to sell

Get to the green flip so we get on with the game or what?

Do kinda feel like hit % would be higher in like... Holden maybe?

But ehh I'm probably not getting my 'slight preference' lynch when I basically have no idea who scum is

Alora's probably a fine lynch for gamestate even as a miss, idk

VOTE: Holden

Here's my end of day preference so that everyone can see how bad I look when Alora actually ends up flipping scum for some reason

Ehh we do have 2 days.

I can sleep on it (for real this time ) make sure no one says anything spicy, hammer in the morning

this is scummy as hell.[/quote]

I do wonder at this point how much of the tonal aspects are just playstyle, but the hyperbole like tone comes back. First, I want to address the switch in the wagon from a motivational standpoint. Monkey had already expressed that he thought both lynches was good for town for the info they provided. Even if this does not change his read feelings on Alo (it shouldn't), he suddenly is now concerned that Alo is getting lynched. There was admittedly some change in the thread's tone, but I do argue that his push on kirari does conflict with his previous feelings while the hasty fragmentation of his reasoning to why kirari is scum and should be voted for are quite lacking in both analysis and ability to convince town to switch if he genuinely wanted that wagon.

With that said, does scum!Monkey push this when town is likely to vote on the mislynch wagon (alo)? He dives hard onto the logic and keeps it pushing, so its not an attempt to just look townie. If scum was setting up a day 2 mislynch via Kirari, then I do feel monkey would build more of a slander case than outright prosecuting and attempting to lynch kirari day 1. Therefore, despite the issues I have with how rushed he was, that impulsive nature feels like it is coming from a townie mindset and has more motivation in my eyes as such. It is a grey area especially along side tone, but I lean towards town.

This is where day 1 ends with him still on the Kirari wagon at the end.

My thoughts at the end of day 1:

I do feel more uncertain in my read in HEM than before mainly for the aggressive tone that he took day 1 which in places feels more like shading of slots rather than other town play-styles that I have seen use it as a method of applying pressure. There are moments however that still reflect town motivations, or seem more likely to come from town play. I find the LL interaction's strongly from the mind of town, and the impulsive nature of the kirari wagon leads to town!monkey. There is no shut cases in his day 1 play to lock him as town or scum. Figuring out his tonal range as town will prove key in pushing him in one way or other. Right now, if I had to classify my read, it would be a town lean. I may break my rules of meta research to try and secure this better, but I shall keep going into his day 2 play soon. Needed to take break and move around.

[HoldenGolden]

I Hate BBcode fyi

Also

VLA NOTICE TILL AT LEAST MAY 1st: I have finals until then, and an outside event occurred early this morning which will perhaps affect my ability to be on. I will provide my need for an extension of VLA status, if be, when it is required.

[HoldenGolden]

Also it is ironic that Cil2d meta pull describes scum!monkey as emotionally driven when my interactions with him in the mini has lead me to the opposite conclusion since he posted in a relatively calm manner and I only suspected him d1 due certain posts.

Anyways, let me show you kirari what I was talking about with town monkey. Gimme a second

The emotional instance I saw most strongly in his scum game before the one both of you played together. But that does not reduce the argument that you are able to detect Scum!Monkey traits.

Now to properly answer this:

I do not make the claim to it affecting my abilities to read, but I do typically try to move away from meta as the game goes on and focus on the context of what has actually transpire. This is mainly because of 1) lack of actual first hand play experience across multiple games (of both agliniments) to establish a clear baseline and 2) second hand meta reports are more subjective since the reader does not know the full context of each game usually. I try to as well mainly for refinement in my abilities to catch scum in general and learn from mistakes (as meta cases then to be limited in scope of how you can learn). From my analysis so far, it seems I have to break this trend however and read some town games of Monkey to see how he acts namely what tone he presents ideas with.

[HoldenGolden]

Also we get it LL and kirari. Both of you are fine with the other losing etc. Etc.

We are either grown adults or maturing adults, let's accept it and move on rather than testing to provoke eachother mkay?

Pedit if 3b flips scum I'll happily get lynched as long as I get time to find his partner and it isnt lylo. He's been on my suspect pool for awhile.

Moreover, Kirari, I have thought about LL's claim being faked on account of a faked tracker claim costing me the game once and my deep rage at ethOs for it. However, I did not want to voice it till now because I wanted to see how LL handles the new wagons. The fact LL is still hardcore after your lynch is much different than how eth0s handled his fakeclaim. I would expect scum!LL to be more open about lynching others since his gameplay as scum requires someone to go after post your flip as town and also explain why he is still alive day 3. In short, his die hard stance on you...well dying, feels more authentic to me.

[HoldenGolden]

When I read your game as scum, Holden (the one you won), I noticed that you were able to make relatively large posts, but nothing like what you did above. Which makes me think that this is subtly out of your scum-range and slightly clarifies the view on the Monkey slot. If I assume, at this point, that your perception of Monkey is correct, I believe that PoE suggests two scums between Yooh /3bounty /Kirari. Considering that Kirari is convinced that she is, in fact, town, the scum team basically ends up being described as

3bounty and Yooh

.

Would that be the game's solution ?

While I take the praise, it is not. I am pretty sure I had lengthy posts when I defended Chen in the game I power-scummed

My issue with that team is 3b' treatment of Yooh's 1071 post. Calling that post "Always from a scums POV and 100% scum" is pretty terrible partner interactions, however, he decides to push me at that time over the tracker claim. That's why I wanted him to provide more rational on it when it has not be refuted. He brushed off my response by why he shouldnt move off me at the time. I am seeing it hard to view Yooh's interactions with Kirari as scum, but 3b's claim and gameplay =/=. Thats not even factoring him suddenly town reading Yooh with no explanation.

I don't think it is out of the question, but 3b's claims make it much more harder to decide.

[HoldenGolden]

is scum more inclined to be active or be inactive?

I love playing scum for example and thus am very active when playing it.

[HoldenGolden]

I think one is definitely Holden. With HEM/Kirari/Clidd as partner.

What happen with your scum read on Yooh?

[HoldenGolden]

I think one is definitely Holden. With HEM/Kirari/Clidd as partner.

What happen with your scum read on Yooh?

I town read him. His one gambit post is scum, but the rest of his play is town. In his gambit post he bets the entire game on Kirari being red. So he must know for sure that she is red. I commented that only scum or town PR can know that.

So I guess my comment pointing out the obvious means I should push a Yoooh lynch right Holden? Lol.

No, who you are voting for makes sense and is of no concern right now.

My issue is with what you have said and backed up and still do back up here.

1071 comes from a scum POV unless he 100% knows Kirari is scum. Read it multiple times and in no way does it benefit town if he is VT with uncertainty. So either he is some sort of PR with info on Kirari or he is scum.

Holden also has a perfect scum spot on the Alo wagon.

Are you going to answer my question of who is my partner or are you going to keep throwing shade at me to discredit my case?

Because countermeasure: off wagon for scum is just as good as on wagon.

Will have to take look a bit later. But you def seem more than capable of bussing or distancing so not sure "who is my partner" really means anything to what I am reading of your alignment right now.

I saw this after I post. I will take that praise even if it is wrong this game.

HEM was the person I was looking for you to say since eariler you said kirari and me didnt make sense and you had the scum read on him eariler. When you feel like it, feel free to read my ISO and do that case if you see it still.

What is your stance on cli2d and floof? I ask the later given you said 1071 (I think) never comes from town POV.

Do you think kirari can be town here despite you thinking scum was fishing for pr roles day 2?

Yes I think Kirari can be town and the PR stuff were memes. But if she turns out to be scum I won't be surprised. Clidd I can't really get a read on him he seems distant and not focused which makes it NAI to me. Yoooh's gambit only comes from scum unless he is ONE HUNDRED PERCENT sure of Kirari's alignment which I don't see how that can be. But his other posts give townie vibes.

You know that Yooh cannot be a PR since you believe LL's claim due to your read on me. Therefore, by your own admission, yooh should be left as scum. We agree on this. I guess my question is can you provide those posts that spark him being town in your eyes despite 1071? I had bits and pieces of your read on Yooh in the past, but that hasn't come up much post 1071.

[HoldenGolden]

Also it is 1 am local time and I need sleep. I sadly have to put off the rest of Monkey's ISO till tomorrow.

[HoldenGolden]

Let me speak to you directly LL. I've tried to be civil about this, but quite frankly I'm tired of the shit show between both you and kirari. We are stopping this here and now.

People actually have been playing the game as me and cli2d have posted numerous content related discussions with HEM chirping in. Just because it is not all kirari doesnt me we "arent playing the game". Regardless of kiraris alignment, somebody else is scum.

You fail to realize time after time that our agurements for town kirari (at least mine) have nothing to do with being too bad to be scum and instead consist of analysis of the gamestate as different points of the day phase

So get off the high horse for a moment. You need to realize that your play so far is anti town in the sense you are constantly shrugging off the rest of the analysis in the game, downplaying others analysis, calling people bad, and talking shit about the gamestate while not actively trying to fix it. I've tried to cooperate somewhat with you, which you never responded to. Even if you are right and kirari is scum, you have successfully contributed to so much demotivating to the point where towns ability to sfum hunt is suffering. Guess what? I still want to play the game. Cli2d still wants to play the game. Monkey...well he is playing Dota but hey, he has at least posted some.

Mafia isnt a game about solving who scum is. It's working together so scum can actually be lynched. Your one sided view today is preventing that to such a degree that the one person who has agreed with most of your logic is also your town read (3b, and don't tell me that's not why hes up there since I can quote your ISO to prove it). Work with us, and we will work with you. Piss us off or demotivate us, and then we will just ignore you. That's how social games work. We are open to hearing your points, but we have our own ideas we want to propose as well.


Really consider this. I understand kiraris approach this game has been quite anti townie as well, but this whole bickering is only promating a gamestate for scum. Pull back. You dont have to change your read, stance, or nothing. Just work with people like me and everyone else. That's all I'm asking.

Kirari, this goes for you too. I know you are providing analysis on other players and conversing with us. For that, regardless of your alignment, I thank you. But you are the other party in this. If LL doesnt change, then dont humor him. I'm serious. Respond whatever you want content wise, but engaging with him tonally isnt helping matters either.

I've had a really shitty day today for reasons I'll spare the thread so idk what the hell I'm gonna to do now. I may sleep. I may read the game and finish my monkey analysis and take advantage of the time we have from the replacement. What I wont do is read more of you two fighting.

[HoldenGolden]

I think one is definitely Holden. With HEM/Kirari/Clidd as partner.

What happen with your scum read on Yooh?

I town read him. His one gambit post is scum, but the rest of his play is town. In his gambit post he bets the entire game on Kirari being red. So he must know for sure that she is red. I commented that only scum or town PR can know that.

So I guess my comment pointing out the obvious means I should push a Yoooh lynch right Holden? Lol.

No, who you are voting for makes sense and is of no concern right now.

My issue is with what you have said and backed up and still do back up here.

1071 comes from a scum POV unless he 100% knows Kirari is scum. Read it multiple times and in no way does it benefit town if he is VT with uncertainty. So either he is some sort of PR with info on Kirari or he is scum.

Holden also has a perfect scum spot on the Alo wagon.

Are you going to answer my question of who is my partner or are you going to keep throwing shade at me to discredit my case?

Because countermeasure: off wagon for scum is just as good as on wagon.

Will have to take look a bit later. But you def seem more than capable of bussing or distancing so not sure "who is my partner" really means anything to what I am reading of your alignment right now.

I saw this after I post. I will take that praise even if it is wrong this game.

HEM was the person I was looking for you to say since eariler you said kirari and me didnt make sense and you had the scum read on him eariler. When you feel like it, feel free to read my ISO and do that case if you see it still.

What is your stance on cli2d and floof? I ask the later given you said 1071 (I think) never comes from town POV.

Do you think kirari can be town here despite you thinking scum was fishing for pr roles day 2?

Yes I think Kirari can be town and the PR stuff were memes. But if she turns out to be scum I won't be surprised. Clidd I can't really get a read on him he seems distant and not focused which makes it NAI to me. Yoooh's gambit only comes from scum unless he is ONE HUNDRED PERCENT sure of Kirari's alignment which I don't see how that can be. But his other posts give townie vibes.

You know that Yooh cannot be a PR since you believe LL's claim due to your read on me. Therefore, by your own admission, yooh should be left as scum. We agree on this. I guess my question is can you provide those posts that spark him being town in your eyes despite 1071? I had bits and pieces of your read on Yooh in the past, but that hasn't come up much post 1071.

I do know that I would like my question answer 3b.

[HoldenGolden]

I appreciate your speech, Holden. I agree that the game has not been very pleasant since this discussion between the two started, but I believe that one step at a time, calmly, we will be able to resume the pace of D1.

I agree, and think we have started moving towards a better space. However, it requires a direct statement for that to happen. I've been trying to calmly cool it for awhile passively, but feel now is the time for a more active disfussion

To both LL and Hirari, I hold no ill regards about what has happen. I understand mafia can be stressful, especially when people do not see your PoV. I simply want to let begones be begones and move on.

[HoldenGolden]

You're town irl holden, want you to know that

I kinda planned to just take a break from the game after the wagons went to l2 until the replacement came in and 3b saying no to that kinda just blows me away

Like his defense of L-1ing me is 'potato play sheep the town lynch something' but with the replacement on my wagon and not his all keeping us both at l1 is increase the likelihood he gets lynched... Why does he play into his own mislynch as town?

I have thought about that since skimming in the thread that his rush for cli2d to hammer is because yooh vote is on your wagon.

My issue is just how readily though he is willing to move his wagon. I'm on my phone, so quoting a bunch of posts is hard, but I've noticed and have called out how wide is scum pool is yet how unfocused he is at narrowing down that pool by analyzing. It's fine he has a big pool, but I would think town!3b would try to iron out who exactly is the last scum. He hasn't really done this, or if he has, not provided the analysis for it.

It fits the narrative that you are town and 3b is scum trying to set up for a day 3 ml by leaving his pool wide enough to go onto who is needed to win the game (hem or me). Do you see that as well? Or is it just me?

[HoldenGolden]

I am doubting my cli2d/3b pairing mainly for the formers posts recently.

That's the one main redeeming quality for town!3b imo is that the pairing for his is narrowing down a lot.

[HoldenGolden]

I answered that. In addition I would like to know who you blocked night 1 Holden.

I only have sex with those I escort.

So theres your question. Who would scum!me fuck day 1? Keep in mind I'm very kinky and progressive. A dangerous combo.

And i dont see where you quoted posts from yooh explaining your read on him when I read your iso?

[HoldenGolden]

Jesus it is 2:33 am how the actual hell?

[HoldenGolden]

Knowing how many alts you have, I wouldnt take the risk. I do like a bit of flirting before kissy kissy, and I dont feel taking the lottery chance to end up with something like Charles the Second of Spain staring at me in bed.

Not that there is nothing wrong with sleeping and having sex with a 5th level incest person. That would go against my progressive and kinky nature. However, it is simply not in my preferences and thus would wish to avoid being unhappy.

[HoldenGolden]

Knowing how many alts you have, I wouldnt take the risk. I do like a bit of flirting before kissy kissy, and I dont feel taking the lottery chance to end up with something like Charles the Second of Spain staring at me in bed.

Not that there is nothing wrong with sleeping and having sex with a 5th level incest person. That would go against my progressive and kinky nature. However, it is simply not in my preferences and thus would wish to avoid being unhappy.

I mean if not me, I could log on to my Nicolas Cage alt and that would be extra spicy funtimes

Anyway I'm going to sleep now, you're welcome to join me if you want, though :3

Sadly I'm going to go for the brainwashing move and sleep with 3b. I am apperently scum rb after all and need to use my psychological warfare that cli2d referenced eariler to throw off him.

So 3b let me show you my 3b's....that I'm currently earning in my classes.

I will say it's time for me actually sleep too so bleh.

[HoldenGolden]

I am apperently scum rb after all and need to use my psychological warfare that cli2d referenced eariler to throw off him.

bro if you end up being the scum rb in the end after that speech, you're gonna be my hero

Ironically, the meta I have as scum would support scum!me making that speech lol.

Hmm, lot of time now on our hands.

[HoldenGolden]

I think me and you are thinking of two different cow time, so I am going to say no.

What is this cow time you are referring to?

[HoldenGolden]

hold me I'm scared

So 3b, monkey, we are in basically indefinite lylo with one another. How are yall?

[HoldenGolden]

Monkey you are breaking the rules again via enticing players to replace out.

I hate to say it, but you will most likely need to be replace

[HoldenGolden]

What's the current VC?

I honestly at this point am fine with any lynch given over half the game replacing out. I think me you and 3b should form a gang and destroy the new players. Call ourselves the OGs or some stupid name. Maybe Vailing Vets?

[HoldenGolden]

Ooo better yet

UNVOTE:
VOTE: HoldenGolden

Let's put up a super secret reaction test for all the replacements by putting me at L1. Surely scum will fall for this and lolhammer me, revealing to us who is scum.

They obviously won't read this far, so they be powerless to realize it's a reaction test.

[HoldenGolden]

Of course, it would be against towns win con and our duties as respectful mafia players if we allowed a world where we civilly hurl such insults at one another.

Hypothetically speaking though, I do believe such a world could be achieved if we all untie together and proclaim all in coming players as the the bottom of humanities intellectual barrel. I can handle the underhand bribing it would take to get the admins like PP and Micc to not force the game to be cancelled, thus forcing Elmo to put up VCs or otherwise be knocked down to zero nodding experience. I think I have fish somewhere for the penguin.

Plotting against me now.....
Elmo

[HoldenGolden]

Off the record, would you and 3b figuratively agree to such a task?

It's off the record so it's not against the rules. If you go up to a cop and say "Off the record I kill two people" they legally cannot arrest you. Same should apply to mafia

[HoldenGolden]

Wait what if we were to run our own game of mafia where people replace in to play and subsequently get screamed out when dying? It be good lylo training for the site.

[HoldenGolden]

/s over

Gotta have some humor given the current situation

[HoldenGolden]

Aye theres 3b shading me as always.

I fear I have developed Stockholm syndrome for it.

[HoldenGolden]

Technically nobody here can win atm since we can't lynch anybody I think (only 3 votes here and I think both kirari and Cli2d unvoted)

Pedit oh hey I was wrong.

[HoldenGolden]

I relate to the photo on multiple levels

[HoldenGolden]

Monkey, I dont think kirari is scum but we cannot lynch 3b unless 3b wants to magically self vote himself.

I know objectively the right thing to do is wait this out and let everyone replace in and etc. And not lynch someone I think is town.

But

Wouldnt it be funny if me or you did?

Unless you are teamed up with 3b somehow and it plays to your win con.

Oh god

The lack of social interaction is starting to make me paranoid. I need a vollyball

[HoldenGolden]

Oh we both have to vote kirari.

This is like when they have the two people turn the keys at the same time for a nuclear missile

[HoldenGolden]

Monkey you watch wrestling too?

Is this John Cena, Golddust, or Edge level of surprised royal rumble entrant?

[HoldenGolden]

I call dibs on being Santino Marella

[HoldenGolden]

Holden let's assume your'e town here. What's your mafia pair atm?

I think it wont be a surprise for you to hear that you are in it.

As for your partner I'm not entirely as confident as I was in cli2d being your partner given his contributions shortly before replacing out. He brought up yooh being your teammate which is plausible as well.

In other words, I need replacements to replace in to play.

[HoldenGolden]

Insomnia sucks balls

When you get a chance, can you voice more about your reads? No rush as deadline is locked and there is quite a lot of pages to go through.

[HoldenGolden]

UNVOTE:

I AM FINE WITH CLEAN VC AT MOD

[HoldenGolden]

Insomnia sucks balls

When you get a chance, can you voice more about your reads? No rush as deadline is locked and there is quite a lot of pages to go through.

You want me to

revisit

this mess? I'll cover much of why I'm voting 3bounty:

Posts 3Bounty made that stick out at me as particularly scummy:
Post #36: Saying LL vs. the ape is scum versus scum. In what universe does a bizarre tinfoily read (usually town, to me; here, LL) and a relatively confused and annoyed player (HEM) count as scum vs scum?
Post #239: Scumleaning Peaches for Peaches' Aloratom vote. Peaches noticed that Aloratam popped in without a random vote - which I find interesting and something to constructive to work with in RVS. It's the opposite of scummy, but 3bounty uses this as an excuse to scumlean a quiet/low content slot. Don't like this at all.
Post #299: Saying a Peaches lynch doesn't give anything going forward, but liking the lynch anyways... what?
Post #359: Blatantly unhelpful, anti-town, and I think this is where I was wondering aloud how he hadn't been lynched yet.
Post #447: Astonishingly scumfriendly readlist. Despite the tons of activity to this point, there are nulls everywhere to hide in, he places his only scumreads on a later-flipped town player and in my opinion the towniest player at that point, and he reads Lucky and Kirari despite their....

questionable

tactics if they're town.

Yeah... basically I don't see a town-3bounty at all. The ape nailed it in 347 - I, too, am 100% sure 3bounty is scum. I just think you guys got distracted by the incredibly toxic interactions between Lucky and Kirari.

I was more asking you to do what tuxedo did on the next page (give one or so sentence summaries of what lead you to your reads list)

Side note, do you normally italicize that much? The tone is werid.

[HoldenGolden]

Fyi since it wasnt apperently seen by the mod

VLA UNTIL MAY 1 DUE TO FINALS

Na I Saw It The First Time.
Elmo

[HoldenGolden]

Hey, I got town lock on the LL slot, and HEM, and possible Kirari but I have questions first. With 3b being my top lynch today, and planes a close second.

Here come the reads:
Town
LL Slot: Almost guaranteed power role, locked.
HEM: Their tunneling (or focus) and frustration seem genuine. A town convinced of his own conclusions but constantly looking for new information.
Hoolden: Has some really good posts, and I want them in a town block, but they feel a little flip-floppy for me. Some of their reads seem to change very suddenly.
Planes Slot: Yooh's activity (or lack thereof) is extremely suspect, and the sudden replacement after their anti-town gambit is not good.
3B: Seem like a player constantly saying one thing and acting another. Their votes not lining up with their suspicions, and seem much more focused on just having someone that isn't them end up lynched. Not on finding scum.

Now for Kirari, I would put them as town for their play, but first I'd like to ask questions about the theory of game stalling.
Could someone explain why the game failing to lynch Kirari means they're likely town? Would the stall not be more likely with them being Scum and their buddy not bussing them? And while some of their behavior is town, their accusations of every player that isn't them read as muddying the waters. But that only happened after the game stalled.

Pedit: Precisely.

Spoiler:

I'll explain my kirari read after this as I was the first to suggest town kirari this phase. (Aka I'll quote my post from eariler and give the run down in the theories progression since then)

Where do I flip flop reads? I can understand that day 1, but I've had a pretty set in stone progression day 2 since the kirari post?

Do you think there is any merit in holding Yoohs replacement against the slot? I dont see how that is suspicious since it can easily be town!yooh got annoyed at the gamestate and flaked.

[HoldenGolden]

(This is going to be a mess flow wise as after taking a latin final and finalizing my remaining final essay, my brain is not working grammar wise)

FYI it is final week(s) for me so activity will wax and wane potentially.

While I do find Kirari scummy, the whole fakeclaim situation doesn't fit for me and I feel the most reasonable reason why Inwho was killed was because he was virtually town-read by everybody day 1 at some point with no strong scum reads forming against them. Scum would have had a hard time forcing a mislynch onto them without over-extending themselves to the point of being easy to read by the rest of town. While I understand the points raised by Cli2d, I find the outlandish and varied claiming by Kirari to not really be efficiently the same as a fakeclaim. The n0 cop and mass mason posts both feel sorta obvious that it was a jest while, upon reading Inwho's response, doesn't seem enough was leaked by the claim for scum!kirari to read inwho as a pr solely on that.

I will admit I had secretly pinged Inwho as a PR based on the overall tone they projected constantly, so I think it is possible for scum to pick up on the pr tells, thought with the townreads as well there is too much speculation to go off of to directly link Kirari to the kill.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Meanwhile I am quite honestly confused given how this day is going. I like the Kirari lynch, but the entire thread seems hell bent on lynching her. This is alarming because if she is scum:

1) her partner is death-bussing her:

Spoiler:

I do not see the need to bus her this early into the day phase. Scum has a massive tempo advantage as they might now have no PR roles to worry about. Kirari was in a bad spot towards the end of day 1, but not nearly bad enough to warrent such a drastic measure as this. While obviously the partner cannot white-knight scum!Kirari as that would throw away their lead if Kirari does flip here (as it be easier to associate the two together), no one really is cautiously supporting the wagon while providing reads on others to deflect the wagon off scum!kirari. 3b is really the only one offering any sort of counter aggression to the lynch, but shuts down Kirari's out on floof here:

Yoooh is probably town. I think highest hit % is on the Alo wagon. The build up was too fast to be all town on there.

It could be to provide distance, but I think scum!3b along with scum!kirari wouldn't shut down the wagon and force themselves into a position where they are left only voting Alo's wagon. That would mean they are going all in on pushing me this day phase which seems like a suicide mission as what the hell will they do post day 2 if they achieve it? Kirari most likely will get lynched and 3b wouldn't be that far behind.

The fact the game state is so comfortable in this situation when the entire scum team should be trying to pivot this if kirari is scum is alarming and points to kirari actually being town.

Even if you disagree and think Kirari is being death bussed:

2) scum!kirari being lynched is god-awful for scum:

Spoiler:

By having her flip red, the game becomes a lot easier to read. I would move up on peoples town list due to Kirari's read progression on me painting me as town. Her interactions with Monkey today cements him as town too and the casting of shade onto cli2d throughout the game most likely gets him ranked higher too. That makes 3 strong town reads that most people agree with leaving [LL, 3b, Floof] as the last possible scum pool. I think depending on how you read the Floof interaction right now, you could cross Floof off that list making the game nearly impossible for scum to win (unless for some reason Monkey/Cli2d as scum hard pushed their teammate today). Scum would be dying to try and move the lynch as a resort, and quite frankly that is not what has been happening as Kirari is the only one understandably fighting the lynch. Thus, this supports the idea that kirari is town here.

3) Town!Kirari is great for scum to mislynch

Spoiler:

Obviously any mislynch is good for scum, but a kirari mislynch sets up scum in a very strong state to win the whole game. I can see a plan where they mislynch kirari today and then push me off of the suspicions raised during today by both kirari and others, carrying them into mylo/lylo (last lynch). From there, depending on how day 3 plays out and if they lynch me, they might have enough ammo to easily win the game depending on who exactly scum is. This is speculative of course, but since I know my alignment, I do see this gameplan easier. I think too they can spin kirari's posts so far earlier today to even throw shade at HEM and in general remove stronger town reads from everyone's list.

Outside of that, town!Kirari is quite hard to predict so far, and given the high activity, could prove to be a threat to scum. Since the suspicious were decent EoD day 1, I can see why they would push her even if they haven't thought that ahead.

In conclusion,

despite the fact individually I find Kirari's posts scummy, the thread sentiment here makes more sense only if Kirari is town. I doubt scum is willing to risk such a high risk low reward gambit by death-bussing here when they are this ahead in the game, and it makes a lot of sense for town!kirari to be scum's preferred lynch here. Going off this, I think those who are either pushing the wagon without directly taking the reigns of it most likely is the scum driving this. I need to go back throughout today to figure out how everyone's push/read progression has changed before I can feel certain where the scum is.

For context this is before Luckys Tracker claim when the entire thread was scum reading and pushing for a kirari wagon. I still think it is worth considering these points because of a few clear ups I had with the logic here:

1) 3b was scum reading kirari unlike I had thought and thus the point of scum hard bussing is strengthen as nobody up until my post had fought the kirari wagon. This is coupled with 2) upon rereading day 1 EoD kirari wasnt in an unsalvageable position. Making it more confusing for scum to leave their partner to die.

Since that post:

Kirari had displayed some desire to solve the game despite continuing to be scum read by most: while kriari is a SE and I would expect them not to give up, their posts felt like they were genuinely attempting to analysis the game from all prospective angles. Some of the logic was faulty, but the motivation is still there. You or somebody else brought up how kirari seemed to be muddying the waters given how they read into everybody, but given their situation of being today's lynch, I think it makes sense for town!kirari.



As to why it stalled later around the time the two (kirari/3b) I think that's partly more due to players fatigue at the Lucky/Kirari interactions rather than the two wagons being scum. Iirc, 3bs wagon grew quickly as well up to L1 but being on mobile I cannot check easily.

Additionally, and this is less logically based but has some merit, it's worth noting im my mind how people didnt take me up on declaring kirari as town or scum instead of the hedging most people were doing that time. I think scum benefits more from not trying to enforce my expressed desire for a formal declaration from everybody as it cuts out a mislynch potentially if kirari is town. Since that is what happened, I'm leaning to this showing kirari is more likely town.

I also dont think 3b/kirari makes given a point I raised in my post above that 3b prevented himself from being on the yooh wagon eariler when kirari was pushing it which I dont see scum buddies do especially that early into the phase.

[HoldenGolden]

If you guys are here can you answers my questions about Kirari. I think it's just theory that's going over my newbie head.
.

In town!Kirari universe, she is both the popular town mislynch, scum mislynch, and TPR target after her performance in D1. Scum already knows that there is a tracker, so they would have understood that she might have been cleared by the tracker. So they already know this lynch might not happen if they're right that she's been cleared by the tracker. Not wanting to lynch her immediately also gives them free towncred. The best play is to wait for someone who doesn't want to lynch her as much, and they would have found the tracker. If everyone wants to be on board about lynching her, they know she wasn't targeted. That's when they'll join the wagon. Partner this with her townie reactions, it paints a probable town!Kirari universe.

D2 starts, sure enough, everyone wants to lynch her immediately — all except 3bounty, HG. This is why HG/clidd and 3bounty partnership in a town!Kirari universe makes so much sense. But where HG/clidd isn't scum, it's Yooh + 3bounty. Although I'm willing to locktown clidd's slot, because of the way he replaced out.

However, as the day pans out, I'm beginning to doubt how strong the theory really is.

Just to restate it, 3b did not opposed the kirari lynch eariler in day 2.

[HoldenGolden]

Well.... obviously there is no reason to believe me, but I certainly know it's not Yooh/Planes + 3bounty. And, no matter what, it seems like 3bounty is one of the scum: whether you assume both wagons were on scum, or if Kirari's town regardless of who the partnerships were - HG, Clidd, or (from your perspective) me. I don't see why we aren't all just agreeing to lynch him later and spend the time productively talking about his partner?

For what it's worth, you might be locktowning Clidd based on the replacement, but I like the slot because when he subbed in, he had a fair amount townfeel and then he posted 879 and then 1142 and these matched up more or less perfectly with what I was independently thinking at the time, going through the game. I don't think scum-Clidd does that, so I don't really buy into scum-Clidd theories.

In my view it's either 3bounty and Kirari or 3bounty and Holden.

P-edit: From outside I can see where someone would think it's me, it's not. About the only thing I can say is that, out of all the players raging and behaving badly in this game, Yooh's losing his temper (#999, #1014, #1064, #1071) feels transparently like frustrated town going on tilt.

Is the 3b and me pairing based on individual reads or an associated take?

If the latter, can you explain what lead you to that pairing? I can understand your logic leading you to declaring kirari and 3b is a team (even if I disagree with it).

Given your feelings about those posts made by yooh and his anti town gambit, what do you make of tuxedo's read of his replacement and tone in those posts shortly afterwards.

[HoldenGolden]

Although, to the guys who have been in the game, maybe actually ending this day would be a relief? If that's true we can speed things up and give you a breather if that's what you and Holden need.

No breathing needed. Oxygen is bad.

From my pov you are most likely the last scum largely due to PoE since I'm agreeing with the points raised about cli2d replacement out. Saying that, I want to at least interact with you somewhat before ending the day. I dont think we need to belabor lynching 3b by dragging it out since I rather just flip him instead of spending days doing preflip analysis, but I think it be for the benefit of both the old players and replacements that some time is allotted for discussion.

[HoldenGolden]

I do feel better about the tonal points I felt were off in planes response to me being eariler being reflected throughout his posting (the italticized phases)

[HoldenGolden]

3B smells like stale ale and scurvy

Would you grace us with your overall youthful perspective on the game, or do I need to spit out words of encouragement like how I spit out your peanut butter brand.

[HoldenGolden]

I understand the PoE regard. I'm honestly in the same boat and trying to force myself away from those conclusions (while also trying to get stances out of everyone prior to lylo if we get to that point)

Kirari's replacement is really what will change my mind from my town!kirari theory unless anybody wants to actively disprove my stance.

3B smells like stale ale and scurvy

Would you grace us with your overall youthful perspective on the game, or do I need to spit out words of encouragement like how I spit out your peanut butter brand.

Patience, Tootles! I'll be all caught up soon as I'm all caught up.

Look alive, you swabs! We’ve got him this time, Mr. Monkey

[HoldenGolden]

yeah okay im still getting names right and that should be holden/3b for me not you/3b but the real takeaway was supposed to be that I'm kind of meshing with kirari by that point in my reading

I forget why exactly she was crossing out holden in that moment, though I figure kirari is probably off the table by present posts and it's less relevant

clidd is not off the table for me by 1375. I am currently super underwhelmed by his meta efforts on you and holden

I'm rolling around in teams including {3b, holden, you, clidd} atm

I'm town reading yoon for d2 interactions early with kirari, the VT claim, and the dumbtell

If I had to guess the team this second it would be Holden/3b because

D1 you are turning around on 3b, and he gets put to L-1 or at least someone says he's L-1 and all of a sudden holden is there unvoting him and refusing to even talk with you about it because of bad blood

D2 they both start with this wishy washy approach to Kirari. 3B says the hammer isn't scummy but the PR hunt is (it isn't.) and holden says that kirari looks scum but is town.

Then people about face on kirari and all of a sudden 3B and holden can't stop talking to one another and it feels like theater. I can almost hear them trying to decide if they've done enough and then doing a little more

You very much missed the context of what happened.

For starters I genuinely thought he reached L1 when I had questions from other players I wanted answers for. Second, the bad blood post is a joke and I did actually interact with monkey shortly after that post when he pitched his LL/3b scum team.

While I think there is some equity in 3b/LL team, it's not for exactly what you posted HEM

A decent chuck of LL's read on 3b is built on associating him with Alo. Alo is still the lynch pin either way for why LL thinks 3b is scummy too. Not it's not entirely the whole read, but the last quote in that post was focused on how 3b was defending Alo while pushing peaches.

The issue here is the Alo lynch pin. The mislynch for scum!LL provides the backpedal out of the read on his partner 3b in this case. Additionally how 3b threw out throwing town cred to LL for his interactions with Alo for assuming dealing with him (?) Is wonky too.

Regardless, outside of post game swag, I dont think there is much point in trying to build a team right now.

As for kirari, how is making a read about the game state wishywashy when I stuck with it for the majority of day 2, only reconsidering post tracker claim for obvious reasons? Then going on to try and make the thread declare stances on kirari?

If I'm scum with 3b, why the hell would I oppose the kirari wagon to begin with and then jump on my partner?

[HoldenGolden]

is kirari also mastina because if not i think they are high percentage town in any world

They are a Krazy alt if that helps

[HoldenGolden]

I don't know how much weight you can place on those questions... they're the sort of thing that scum would presumably ask about in scum-chat or PM or something, not out in plain view of man and radar, so their presence is just a massive amount of NAI WIFOM, I think.

Though having two of our SE's ask is decidedly odd-feeling. Y'all should know this without asking.

P-edit: I have no idea who Mastina is.

Also questions to the mods should never be considered AI.

For example: Last time I played in mafia was before 1950 where set up change. Multitasking RB is normal on mafiascum, but I had thought that it wasnt in the case for newbies given the d3 set up. Since I and other people where questioning it, I asked mod directly to publically resolved the issue so they dont get 4 different pms asking the same question. None of that is inherently scum or town indicative.

[HoldenGolden]

Hem is never scum here if 3b flips red

I might be using that as an excuse not to finish the rest of the analysis on him but shh

[HoldenGolden]

The Alo lynch pin is referencing LLs read on 3b not mine (unless you are talking about my push on kirari at the time?). If it is about kirari, I wanted to force out the reasoning for why they were saying I'm scum without them actually explaining why for pretty straightforward reasonings.

And how so? I directly said I did not agree with a major part of why she was getting lynched (the PR fishing -> night kill spec) and despite my suspicions of her from the previous day phase, the gamestate painted her as town. I then proceeded to interrogate and find scum by analyzing Yooh and 3b.

I would get your read if I said I leaned somewhat and didnt do anything, but I actively was hunting scum post that while refuting major parts of her lynch.

[HoldenGolden]

i'm good with either a 3bounty and a kirari lynch and i'm not gonna be surprised if both are scum in the end.

im pretty sure maf kariri didn't hammer d1 just to end up in a competing wagon with their partner d2 so like??

Not to mention other stuff like 3b preventing their partner from getting a counter wagon going by townreading their choice (Yooh)

The kirari slot is town.

[HoldenGolden]

Up until around here, both 3B and Holden are like half distancing, half supporting the kirari lynch. Neither is doing much and both are just kind of waiting for town to find a hammer there.

So I wasnt actively fighting the kirari lynch by questioning both yooh and my suppose scum partner, the latter of whom I focused more on and gave reasons why they are scum?

D2 alone I've done:
Fight kirari wagon, yooh/3b suspicions, debated the anti town gambit with cli2d, attempted to cool down the kirari/LL fight passively, fully pushed 3b further, gave out a scum pairing, made an entire day 1 analysis of Monkeys play, tried to force people to give stances on kirari to prevent scum wishy washy them till lylo, and reanalysize cli2d play?

Like you are painting that I actively sat around and did nothing when that is false.

As for the quoted post about my reevaluation of kirari, yes, surprisingly an uncced tracker claim with a non guilty check which caused the entire game to decay warrant me to at least rethink the slot quite like everyone else not named kirari and LL.

And back to the day 1 thing? I already spoke that I did in fact actually talk to monkey about 3b with his 3b/LL association. This would be a fine point if kirari wasnt making entirely unsupported claims about someone being scum at the time? Do you think town!me would just ignore that on d1 especially?

Like the entire idea I'm scum with 3b makes no sense objectively. I come in, fight the mislynch being handed to us by town, force myself onto my partner, and then commit to lynching them while simultaneously shrinking my scum pool by town reading monkey and saying he cannot be scum with 3b, solidifying my town read on kirari, and even undermining my association read with cli2d?

Even if you think we are distancing or w/e, scum!me would be backing myself into a corner where mathematically I cannot secure enough mislynches by choice.

[HoldenGolden]

i'm gonna find out why this is weird after Kirari replacement appears.

Why is it dependent on the kirari replacement?

Honestly I'm finding the replacements harder to read since they have the ability to read d1 and up to this point d2 objectively. It's what I learned back in my newbie game as scum replacing in. It's much easier to read the game when you arent responsible for advancing it further at that given point unlike if you have to formulate a response to keep pushing.

It's nothing nobody can do as it's the nature of replacements in general.

As for the whole pan seems scummy. So did LL even post claim. I still think that the suppose Gambit of scum claiming tracker to push an non incremidenting check is quite flawed. While there can be explainations for why tracker doesnt die tonight (rbed and someone more widely town read is picked off like monkey assuming 3b =/= rb), LL really went all in on his kirari tunnel while only providing small instances of being able to push others (me) which would fall apart if kirari flips town.

Although Pan is undermining this by doing it (having his scum pool include four people), I think the logic is still valid retrospectively.

Do you disagree with this monkey?

[HoldenGolden]

We should just assume that 3b is being bussed by their partner right now. We should all ask when did bussing start to happen.

I mean it would be kinda obvious that 3b sensing the writing on the wall would instruct his partner replacing in to bus him. It's also why it's been more quiet since the replacements have come in probably.

The issue is that 3b is a scum read that makes sense. There are other things to look for than solely when did the bussing started.

[HoldenGolden]

I understand that you talked to it, and I apologize for not being convinced, but hear me out.

Kirari was obv!town by the end
Clidd is lock!town by the time he replaces out
Yoon is very likely town by his VT claim which really really doesn't make sense from scum there
if 3B is scum, monkey is almost certainly town from the D1 interactions.

Which leaves you as the partner

If 3B is somehow town, I guess we're looking at Monkey + HG, which I don't really like as a pairing, or we have to bring yoon/clidd back into the scum pool, and I don't like those options at all, either.

So if you want to convince me you're town, I really need you to break my poe rather than explain your play.

See I have no qualms with the PoE read as this game is hard af, but dont go "it's super obvious" -> well actually it is POE. You are leaving yourself open to conformational bias by trying to do that.

And ironically my plan has nothing to do with breaking that PoE per say. All town needs to agree here on is who certainly cannot be scum. That's why I want monkey for example to discuss my LL point, because then if we all agree on it, we tighten the noose around scum.

Assuming 3B is scum:
-Cli2d I can protest will flip town since post my read they only made moves to reduce their abilities to play if they were scum (flipping their reads on both me and Monkey post my wall of text on him). Add any other numerous reasons to this.
-monkey + 3b doesnt make sense.
-kirari and 3b doesnt make sense and town!kirari is very likely

This leaves me, you, and Yooh/planes.

If we all agree on one of us being town, then we win. Mafia cannot survive enough lynches to win as they need two successful mislynches to go off. It will be a game of attrition.

[HoldenGolden]

i'm gonna find out why this is weird after Kirari replacement appears.

Why is it dependent on the kirari replacement?

Honestly I'm finding the replacements harder to read since they have the ability to read d1 and up to this point d2 objectively. It's what I learned back in my newbie game as scum replacing in. It's much easier to read the game when you arent responsible for advancing it further at that given point unlike if you have to formulate a response to keep pushing.

It's nothing nobody can do as it's the nature of replacements in general.

As for the whole pan seems scummy. So did LL even post claim. I still think that the suppose Gambit of scum claiming tracker to push an non incremidenting check is quite flawed. While there can be explainations for why tracker doesnt die tonight (rbed and someone more widely town read is picked off like monkey assuming 3b =/= rb), LL really went all in on his kirari tunnel while only providing small instances of being able to push others (me) which would fall apart if kirari flips town.

Although Pan is undermining this by doing it (having his scum pool include four people), I think the logic is still valid retrospectively.

Do you disagree with this monkey?

So monkey and everyone else, let's get the ball rolling. Yes or no on my take on LL's actions.

Who here disagrees with townkirari? If so, what faults in my and others theory do you see?

[HoldenGolden]

@MOD are you allowed to hardrecruit people into playing this game?

Nope But I may have OUR FINAL REPLACEMENT. But On A lighter Note. Enjoy The Randomness I found on Youtube.

Can it be a RAS account so we can get cleared slots through underground tactics

[HoldenGolden]

What's up guys the game start yet?

You mean tonight's poker game? There is a spot left.

Depends if you are willing to bet your soul tho.

[HoldenGolden]

Spoiler:

You soul shall be mine then.

Ironic now we have come back to the argument of who is my partner isn't it? Well then lets hear it. All the replacements have spoken, and despite kirari not being replaced yet, their ISO is extensive. You will given time to search.

[HoldenGolden]

I've been stewing in paranoia over a possible column C game but have decided against it. Lucky was a tracker.

Beginning to come around on the idea of town-Kirara, but I'm not yet sold. Fortunately I have a lot of time to think it over and reread.

Of course, as Kirara's scum-star wanted, Holden's scum-star waxes. If it isn't here slot, it's you, little horse-deputy thing.

Play your hand when you are ready on Kirari. What about my theory on town kirari or others are you not sold on?

[HoldenGolden]

Wow today I learned That if you highlight a part of a post and click quote it auto formats it with only the portion in it.

[HoldenGolden]

I'm going to read it over and think about it on my own for now.

Understandable

Tuxedo, your LL and Kirari reads please? Have my theories on them make you lean that they are town? If not, what is your counter argument?

[HoldenGolden]

There is a reason why I am focusing on this, but I need others to comment on it before I reveal it.