Newbie 1996: GAME OVER

[Rectiplanes]

Can't sleep... I will read up on this mess before putting down a vote, probably tomorrow evening?

UNVOTE: Kiribati for now.

[Rectiplanes]

Still insomnia... am like a quarter of the way through the game. But... how is 3bounty still breathing? Dude absolutely reeks of scumminess so far.

[Rectiplanes]

OK... so, I'm not getting sleep. My loss is your gain...

VOTE: 3Bounty

Feeling comfortable with that one.

Also fairly certain the other scum is Kirari (or whoever replaces them). Might be Holden but we'll see.

[Rectiplanes]

I just read 69 pages of content (much of which was a dumpster fire), so that's bullshit.

[Rectiplanes]

Insomnia sucks balls

When you get a chance, can you voice more about your reads? No rush as deadline is locked and there is quite a lot of pages to go through.

You want me to

revisit

this mess? I'll cover much of why I'm voting 3bounty:

Posts 3Bounty made that stick out at me as particularly scummy:
Post #36: Saying LL vs. the ape is scum versus scum. In what universe does a bizarre tinfoily read (usually town, to me; here, LL) and a relatively confused and annoyed player (HEM) count as scum vs scum?
Post #239: Scumleaning Peaches for Peaches' Aloratom vote. Peaches noticed that Aloratam popped in without a random vote - which I find interesting and something to constructive to work with in RVS. It's the opposite of scummy, but 3bounty uses this as an excuse to scumlean a quiet/low content slot. Don't like this at all.
Post #299: Saying a Peaches lynch doesn't give anything going forward, but liking the lynch anyways... what?
Post #359: Blatantly unhelpful, anti-town, and I think this is where I was wondering aloud how he hadn't been lynched yet.
Post #447: Astonishingly scumfriendly readlist. Despite the tons of activity to this point, there are nulls everywhere to hide in, he places his only scumreads on a later-flipped town player and in my opinion the towniest player at that point, and he reads Lucky and Kirari despite their....

questionable

tactics if they're town.

Yeah... basically I don't see a town-3bounty at all. The ape nailed it in 347 - I, too, am 100% sure 3bounty is scum. I just think you guys got distracted by the incredibly toxic interactions between Lucky and Kirari.

[Rectiplanes]

Yeah, I fatfingered that one, didn't I? But you knew exactly which one I was thinking of anyways, ha.

[Rectiplanes]

That would be, what, two more players? We could save Elmo some trouble. We all vote to lynch Kirari if 3bounty agrees to night-kill LuckyLuciano's slot.

Then we can play with only the active players, right?

[Rectiplanes]

I do hope you're joking as much as I was in #1729.

[Rectiplanes]

LuckyLuciano's slot is probably toast in any universe, though, having claimed.

[Rectiplanes]

Now for Kirari, I would put them as town for their play, but first I'd like to ask questions about the theory of game stalling.
Could someone explain why the game failing to lynch Kirari means they're likely town? Would the stall not be more likely with them being Scum and their buddy not bussing them? And while some of their behavior is town, their accusations of every player that isn't them read as muddying the waters. But that only happened after the game stalled.

I honestly think the stalling was because both wagons were on scum and they were forced to crossbus by circumstances and

that's

why the game stalled. I mean, I don't see the ape being scum in this game, so in your theory, it's either your own slot or Holden Golden who would be bussing. I don't imagine you would bring up a theory that implicates yourself if you're scum, so I'm assuming you're thinking Holden would be Kirari's partner under the not-bussing theory?

Whereas you seem to be scumreading my slot and 3bounty, both of who would be bussing if Kirari was scum. And it makes more sense if 3bounty is scum and they're parked on each others' wagons, perfectly balanced and going nowhere, with Clidd unable to decide who to hammer.

[Rectiplanes]

The theory for why Kirari's wagon stalling out means they're town here flies over my head, too, basically. My opinion is that both wagons were on scum, with maybe an outside chance of HoldenGolden being the scum.

I mean, let's take the universe where your slot, Tuxedo, is the scum: why would Clidd basically lock up and not vote for either? Were both on town and he didn't want the blame? Was he tormented by the choice of bussing or mislynching town? I don't think so. I think he was just town being thrown off by the deteriorating tone of the game and two stuck wagons.

[Rectiplanes]

Well.... obviously there is no reason to believe me, but I certainly know it's not Yooh/Planes + 3bounty. And, no matter what, it seems like 3bounty is one of the scum: whether you assume both wagons were on scum, or if Kirari's town regardless of who the partnerships were - HG, Clidd, or (from your perspective) me. I don't see why we aren't all just agreeing to lynch him later and spend the time productively talking about his partner?

For what it's worth, you might be locktowning Clidd based on the replacement, but I like the slot because when he subbed in, he had a fair amount townfeel and then he posted 879 and then 1142 and these matched up more or less perfectly with what I was independently thinking at the time, going through the game. I don't think scum-Clidd does that, so I don't really buy into scum-Clidd theories.

In my view it's either 3bounty and Kirari or 3bounty and Holden.

P-edit: From outside I can see where someone would think it's me, it's not. About the only thing I can say is that, out of all the players raging and behaving badly in this game, Yooh's losing his temper (#999, #1014, #1064, #1071) feels transparently like frustrated town going on tilt.

[Rectiplanes]

My preference would be to take out the most obvious scum first, so I'm all for the 3bounty lynch.

[Rectiplanes]

Oh, I see what you meant. No, I just meant, we'll agree to lynch 3bounty towards the end of the day and not do it, you know, immediately. We can spend the time before lynching him thinking over who the other scum is.

[Rectiplanes]

Although, to the guys who have been in the game, maybe actually ending this day would be a relief? If that's true we can speed things up and give you a breather if that's what you and Holden need.

[Rectiplanes]

Have I covered Clidd/Tuxedo and 3bounty sufficiently? Who do you want me to explain my read on next?

[Rectiplanes]

LuckyLuciano's play always looks like hot garbage to me, in that he does a lot of stuff that strikes me as questionable; I graded him on a curve, so to speak, based on knowing how wildly different we approach the game after our last match. With that in mind, I overlooked various weird things like his irrelevant self-meta analysis early on and the weirdly petulant post in #90 until I could see things that accorded with a truly town or scum Lucky. I got some solid hints of it in the sequence of posts he had beginning in post #256 and continuing through the 330s or thereabouts. There were other signs, enough that I tentatively had Lucky in a townblock, and then of course his tracker claim sealed the deal, but I was already buying town-Lucky by that point.

P-edit: randomly started on Lucky, not knowing who you'd ask for next.

[Rectiplanes]

Well, one, Clidd's reads were highly congruent with my own in Day 2. I scored the players as if I didn't know their alignments (InWho, Alatoram, and Yooh) and everything checked out. I would have been.... well, not really happy with an Alatoram lynch on day one, but he would have been in the three-man pool I like to narrow down into on day one. (The other inhabitants of that slot would have been 3bounty and Yooh - my predecessor did not do a great job.) His reads in Day 2 were pretty much dead on with mine. When I see a player obviously thinking about the game in a very similar way, making the same moves I would have, it makes me trust that we have the same alignment. The only divergence was after the wagon stalling began and Clidd was indecisive - I would have hammered 3bounty after a little uncertainty, I think, and definitely would have just to enforce a time out on town once Lucky and Kirari started losing it. I don't think that's scummy, though, I think that's just Clidd's reaction to 3bounty basically saying "YOU solve it, it's on you" in #1394 to him.

Just read # 1436, #1447 - that's some flop sweat from our Bentobox Cucumber, worrying about putting the town in a bad spot if he screws up. This is Town-Clidd staring at two players going all in at the poker table, and he's worried about losing his shirt. If he's scum-Clidd, he's

just plain not under that level of stress

.

[Rectiplanes]

So I guess it's more PoE on Holden. I can buy scum Holden, can't really buy scum Clidd-slot. That being said, I find scum-Holden less likely than scum-Kirari.

[Rectiplanes]

Anything else, HEM? It's getting late and I'm extremely tired.

[Rectiplanes]

Alright. I'm getting some sleep. Leaving my vote on 3bounty - I assume it hasn't been cleared? If it has, I'll slap the vote back on tomorrow.

[Rectiplanes]

Is the 3b and me pairing based on individual reads or an associated take?

If the latter, can you explain what lead you to that pairing? I can understand your logic leading you to declaring kirari and 3b is a team (even if I disagree with it).

Given your feelings about those posts made by yooh and his anti town gambit, what do you make of tuxedo's read of his replacement and tone in those posts shortly afterwards.

There are seven players still alive.
3bounty is scum, we are all agreed, I believe.
Kirari's slot is, I think, likely to be the other scum, but I'm only mostly convinced of that. But if not this spot, then...
Yooh might have made a hash of things, but I read my role PM and can be fairly confident of my own town status; I am not his partner.
LuckyLuciano/PeterPan (ELMO! Did you assign the PeterPan to that slot to keep the doubled letters?) is our tracker; he's not 3bounty's partner.
Clidd/TuxedoMask reads townie as hell and I don't buy for a minute that he might be scum.
HumanEatingMonkey is transparently town.

I don't exactly have any choice but to consider you possible scum by PoE. It's either Kirari or you.

[Rectiplanes]

Given that I live in a swamp and went to the University of Florida, I feel I fit the role of a

crocodile

alligator quite well in this unexpected and impromptu Peter Pan joke. Let's pretend my watch is really, really loud to further sell the similarities.

[Rectiplanes]

Yooh held my spot.

[Rectiplanes]

I don't know how much weight you can place on those questions... they're the sort of thing that scum would presumably ask about in scum-chat or PM or something, not out in plain view of man and radar, so their presence is just a massive amount of NAI WIFOM, I think.

Though having two of our SE's ask is decidedly odd-feeling. Y'all should know this without asking.

P-edit: I have no idea who Mastina is.

[Rectiplanes]

Clidd/3bounty
Clidd/Yooh
Clidd/humaneatingmonkey
Clidd/HoldenGolden
3bounty/Yooh
3bounty/HEM
3bounty/HoldenGolden
Yooh/HEM
Yooh/Holden
humaneatingmonkey/HoldenGolden

remarkably close to where i am at rn

Er... forgive me if you were being sarcastic, but isn't that a complete set of all permutations of possible scumpairs excluding Kirari herself and claimed-tracker Lucky?

[Rectiplanes]

I've been stewing in paranoia over a possible column C game but have decided against it. Lucky was a tracker.

Beginning to come around on the idea of town-Kirara, but I'm not yet sold. Fortunately I have a lot of time to think it over and reread.

Of course, as Kirara's scum-star wanted, Holden's scum-star waxes. If it isn't here slot, it's you, little horse-deputy thing.

[Rectiplanes]

I am on my phone, autocorrect is showing its usual love, sorry.

Say hi, autocorrect.

"Go"

[Rectiplanes]

I'm going to read it over and think about it on my own for now.

[Rectiplanes]

It should be noted that I played in a game with Lucky, same one Clidd played with him in, and I generally agree with Clidd's assessment that Lucky wouldn't pull a stunt like gambiting tracker as scum. Not really his style of madness.

[Rectiplanes]

I'd go ahead, Tuxedo, it gives us something to read.

[Rectiplanes]

I do hope that last replacement comes soon, then.

Here we are now, entertain us.

[Rectiplanes]

Very well, proceed.

[Rectiplanes]

Elmo miscounted, so Tuxedo didn't realize you had voted, Pan.

[Rectiplanes]

On the bright side, that was the most harmless wagon to ever exist for derphammering on.

[Rectiplanes]

Hoooold on, Hoooolden.

You can't pretend you missed that hammer.

Naughty naughty. Now we have to argue about getting you first vs second on Day 3.

[Rectiplanes]

Guys! Elmo is online! Everybody look busy!

[Rectiplanes]

It's a terrible punishment for our collective sins.

[Rectiplanes]

Weekend at 3Bernies?

[Rectiplanes]

Um, ok? Not what I expected but I still don't see anyone else as scum, so:

VOTE: HoldenGolden

and I assume the kill was just a big ol' bottle of WIFOM because scum was going down if they didn't try to shake things up.

[Rectiplanes]

I see no reason to ditch the monkey's plan to flip Kiribati Montelukast and then HoldenGolden just because scum sped things up.

[Rectiplanes]

Autocorrect is a strange and wonderful thing sometimes, that was a strange but funny renaming.

[Rectiplanes]

there's a roleblocker
i didn't even bother sending an action

You should always send in an action, even if it's probably pointless. You never know when scum might derp it up and do something pointlessly self-defeating like, say, shoot the person we had planned on hanging today.

[Rectiplanes]

I am mildly interesting in HoldenGolden's plan, whatever it is. Still want to lynch him.

[Rectiplanes]

Well, let's look at it logically:

At the end of day yesterday, you, monkey, suggest lynching 3bounty, then Kirari, then Holden.

I agree ("Very well, proceed") in #1886

Tuxedo Mask votes right after, unintentionally hammering, showing he's on board with this plan too - at least, this is the reasonable interpretation.

So - knowing Kirari is town: if scum is

not

Kirari or Holden, why would you possibly want to screw with this plan? Doing anything other than killing Peter Pan and proceeding to the next step is moronic.

No reason whatsoever exists for HEM, Tuxedo Mask, or myself

:

If any of us are scum, sticking to this plan leads to victory. Killing Kirari derails this plan and eliminates a scumread.

For Scum-Holden, it's a desperation throw into the end zone

:

With three town players having decided on lynching you, you have to do something to rattle their confidence and take them out of their plan; killing Kirari forces the townblock to at the minimum accelerate their plan and cast about for a new Plan B for lylo, just in case. If he's lucky, we fall into bickering and things become winnable again.

We live in column C. There is no Tracker, Holden is town, and Peter Pan needs to shorten the game ASAP because Lucky left him in a bind:

I mean, OK, scum didn't kill our claimed tracker last night. If we stick to our plan, scum has to not kill our tracker night 3, after a Kirari mislynch, too.

Let's game that out, and pretend they killed HEM instead of Kirari:

Day 3: (Kirari-slot, Rectiplanes, Holden, PeterPan, Tuxedo Mask). We lynch Kirari.
Night 4: Peter Pan kills either Tuxedo Mask or myself.
Day 4: Remaining obvious town looks at the 'confirmed Tracker' who has survived and Holden... and there are serious questions here, like how confirmed they actually are.

Instead, the better plan would be:
Night 2 : kill a

scumread

player, in this case Kirari, because the scummier the better.
Day 3: Lynch Holden, preferably, the other scumread player.
Night 4: Shoot Tuxedo Mask or myself, to townify the final three even more.
Day 4: Town must choose between three very townie players in the final three - it will be much harder to choose with less contrast.

UNVOTE: HoldenGolden

[Rectiplanes]

I meant to bold the "We live in Column C" line.

Anyways, I'm now mulling this over and seeing that it's either Holden or Peter Pan, but in no sane universe is it anyone else.

[Rectiplanes]

Do you think it could possibly be anyone else other than Holden or PeterPan, though?

[Rectiplanes]

Yes. You.

Wait, what?

How would I gain from killing Kirari?

I am genuinely confused here. If I were playing scum, killing PeterPan and letting the game develop organically from there seems like the simple, straightforward, hard to screw up plan. I can see some plausible benefits from shooting TuxedoMask or yourself to muddy the waters. Eliminating Kirari (or Holden) seems distinctly

bad

for my wincon: it derails what seems like a natural progression to victory without giving me any compensation for it.

[Rectiplanes]

Anyways, I'm going to sleep. If there is some sort of brilliant deep tactical play involved here, I'm kind of curious for future reference in games where I am scum. If it's just paranoia then I don't really care. Tuxedo, Peter, and Holden, mull over my post up there on where we are.

[Rectiplanes]

Yeah, I'd unvoted while exploring the possibility of PeterPan being possibly scum instead.

We can hear out Holden, I'm in no great rush here.

P-edit: pretty sure I dismissed HEM/3b as a scumteam on day 2.

P-edit2: I explained why I think the Kirari kill helps scum-Pan on the last page, comment please.

[Rectiplanes]

I know there's no way to prove this, but if I were scum last night I would have killed Pan because the state of the game (people reading Kirari and Holden as scum) is perfect for me and I would not take any action to derail a game going in my favor.

If scum does something unexpected like kill Kirari and add a lot of confusion, it's because the situation at the end of day 2 was intolerable. Only Holden and Pan could possibly find the situation at the end of day 2 distasteful as scum.

[Rectiplanes]

You have to ask .. why kill a scum-read slot? Answer that, and you have the remaining scum.

P-edit: I made a case that there is in fact a benefit to Holden - he absolutely had to try something that shakes up the townbloc, anything, if he's scum - and for Pan, who benefits from having the least scummy trio at Lylo. Both of those are win-condition advancing motives for killing Kirari. Anybody else is on a glide path to victory by taking out Pan and letting town remove Kirari.

[Rectiplanes]

If Holden is scum, he's in major trouble, maybe inescapable trouble. He's too widely scum-read to survive through Lylo with any sort of normal play; shooting Kirari at least shakes town out of thinking they have this solved. It's a desperation play but he would be in desperation play territory.

As for Pan, no, Pan would want the most solidly town Lylo possible because of his claim. In a Holden/Pan/HEM Lylo, wouldn't you suspect something was up?

[Rectiplanes]

Aye?

Then explain your asterisk after.

[Rectiplanes]

I like how Tux and I both used a question mark there.

[Rectiplanes]

Ok, now I just want to lynch Holden and forget what I've seen just now.

[Rectiplanes]

We're hanging you. If you aren't scum, somebody is, and the Kirari kill is weird. Weirdness here could only benefit Pan

That said

VOTE: HoldenGolden

That's L-1

[Rectiplanes]

UNVOTE: HoldenGolden as we are doing some kind of weird super bonus round stuff. Pretend the vote is still here, I will be reinstating it before I sleep tonight.

P-edit: party I'm doing this because now I need to defend myself against a mislynch in universes where Holden isn't scum. I will do so after work.

[Rectiplanes]

Spoiler: My how your read has changed, but that's the nature of PoE in a weird game

yo i've been reading this game and i think kirari is town and the scum team is holden/clidd and 3b.

i can hear it: your question is — why didn't they push town!kirari or go for that quickhammer?

if we agree 100% that LL is tracker (and we're not in column three), they already know there's a tracker in the set-up. they know that they couldn't push kirari because kirari was the obvious target for tpr's n1. my guess is that they were counting on Kirari being cleared today. unfortunately, Yooh and LL happened. i think from town POV, Kirari is the obvious lynch — which is what they were counting on.

I just don't think scum reacts the way they did today.

both golden golden and called has dipped in the pool, but never committed to a Kirari lynch.

I think it's never Yooh this game, especially after that 1v1

. I think that if scum wanted Kirari as the mislynch today, it would have 100% happened already.

I'm not sure about who between clidd and HoldenGolden, but I'm willing to VOTE: 3bounty get this out of the way.

just a super hot take from my read through tonight. discuss.

i'll post more tomorrow. for now, good night.

Spoiler: Paranoia much?

Well, that was technically a kill.

I think either Kirari was killed because scum wanted to fast-track the game, or

they wanted to make me lynchable by making me look bad

.

First possibility means they're good with the status quo, and they think speeding up the game will help them win.
Second possibility means they're HoldenGolden.

I still see Peter Pan as indubitably a tracker. I still see TM as indubitably a town.
It could be Rectiplanes, but unlikely.

I want to hear what HG has to say.

I think scum!Planes wanting this to be day over to be over ASAP is because he has the game locked in a state he's comfortable in. At LYLO, it's me vs PP vs Planes. TM is obviously dead. PP will never vote Planes. Planes will vote PP. Either I'm convinced to vote PP, I am forced to convince PP that it's Planes, or PP eventually votes me. I don't see why you think scum!Planes has lost this game by killing Kirari.

If anything, he's risking the game in another direction by introducing a more experienced player in the arena. Remember, Kirari was widely townread before I said I wanted to lynch Kirari.

As for the first part, this is going to be an interesting study for when I do roll scum someday, simply because in hindsight people will see that I have an instinctively conservative mindset when it comes to managing the population of town. For the record, if I were scum this game, I'd have taken PeterPan out last night and would be planning on killing HEM this night, leaving a Tuxedo/Holden/Planes Lylo. The whole point would be to remove the most townread players. It's Subway Scum: it reliably gets me to where I want to go, and there is absolutely nothing interesting to look at along the way, and that's the way I would like it.

It would literally never cross my mind to shoot Kirari-slot in this situation.

As for the second part, about Kirari being "widely townread"....

Spoiler: I show up, decide the scumteam is 3bounty and probably Kirari, maybe Holden

OK... so, I'm not getting sleep. My loss is your gain...

VOTE: 3Bounty

Feeling comfortable with that one.

Also fairly certain the other scum is Kirari (or whoever replaces them). Might be Holden but we'll see.

Spoiler: TuxedoMask starts out townreading Kirari...

Hello everyone, trying to get a grasp of this game.

I've been reading it for fun for a few days now, so it feels like I'm suddenly apart of the play.

I like HEM, Kirari, and Holden most I think right now.

Sorry, that's not a great start but I'll be back again soon.

Spoiler: ....but he has questions FAST

Hey, I got town lock on the LL slot, and HEM, and possible Kirari but I have questions first. (

redacted for brevity

)
Now for Kirari, I would put them as town for their play, but first I'd like to ask questions about the theory of game stalling.
Could someone explain why the game failing to lynch Kirari means they're likely town? Would the stall not be more likely with them being Scum and their buddy not bussing them? And while some of their behavior is town, their accusations of every player that isn't them read as muddying the waters. But that only happened after the game stalled.

Pedit: Precisely.

Spoiler: I continue opining that Kirari is likely scum

So I guess it's more PoE on Holden. I can buy scum Holden, can't really buy scum Clidd-slot. That being said, I find scum-Holden less likely than scum-Kirari.

Spoiler: Again I point a finger at Kirari's spot

Is the 3b and me pairing based on individual reads or an associated take?

If the latter, can you explain what lead you to that pairing? I can understand your logic leading you to declaring kirari and 3b is a team (even if I disagree with it).

Given your feelings about those posts made by yooh and his anti town gambit, what do you make of tuxedo's read of his replacement and tone in those posts shortly afterwards.

There are seven players still alive.
3bounty is scum, we are all agreed, I believe.
Kirari's slot is, I think, likely to be the other scum, but I'm only mostly convinced of that. But if not this spot, then...
Yooh might have made a hash of things, but I read my role PM and can be fairly confident of my own town status; I am not his partner.
LuckyLuciano/PeterPan (ELMO! Did you assign the PeterPan to that slot to keep the doubled letters?) is our tracker; he's not 3bounty's partner.
Clidd/TuxedoMask reads townie as hell and I don't buy for a minute that he might be scum.
HumanEatingMonkey is transparently town.

I don't exactly have any choice but to consider you possible scum by PoE. It's either Kirari or you.

Spoiler: PeterPan has been solidly townreading Kirari the whole way through, though

I understand that you talked to it, and I apologize for not being convinced, but hear me out.

Kirari was obv!town by the end
Clidd is lock!town by the time he replaces out
Yoon is very likely town by his VT claim which really really doesn't make sense from scum there
if 3B is scum, monkey is almost certainly town from the D1 interactions.

Which leaves you as the partner

If 3B is somehow town, I guess we're looking at Monkey + HG, which I don't really like as a pairing, or we have to bring yoon/clidd back into the scum pool, and I don't like those options at all, either.

So if you want to convince me you're town, I really need you to break my poe rather than explain your play.

Spoiler: everyone else has talked me around

I've been stewing in paranoia over a possible column C game but have decided against it. Lucky was a tracker.

Beginning to come around on the idea of town-Kirara, but I'm not yet sold. Fortunately I have a lot of time to think it over and reread.

Of course, as Kirara's scum-star wanted, Holden's scum-star waxes. If it isn't here slot, it's you, little horse-deputy thing.

Spoiler: Then right before you vote 3Bounty, then you claim Kirari is scum

ok

im getting a little impatient

i do think it's kirari and 3bounty. i can't underestimate kirari's scumplay and say she's town because of her posts. it's obvious that our last scum (if scum!3bounty is correct) is a powerscum who acts like town. In my recent re-read, I was trying to find town posts that meant to stir the conversation into pro-scum situations. Her PR bait and hard defense of 3bounty comes to mind. Not to mention, she throws around scum teams like peanuts without narrowing her POV. Also, she proposes a scum!LL scenario which makes no sense but puts it out there anyway and asks people to seriously consider it. Recently, in 3bounty's last posts, he reminds it of us.

i was doing a thing in which i'm trying to bait kirari's replacement to hint that LL could be scum, and should be lynched. i never thought it was possible.

If you guys agree, I want to speed this game up by doing 3bounty > Kirari > HG. Deal?

Up until this point, in retrospect, Kirari is more widely townread than I remembered - I was the only one who was banging on a table saying KIRARI IS SCUM, and Tuxedo was only somewhat ambivalent and wanted some points cleared up. But... eh, my reads were at least consistent. And the person who gave us the 3bounty -> Kirari -> HG progression was you.

I'm just gonna stand by my initial reads and avoid getting caught up in the WIFOM. TM is never scum. PP is never scum. PoE = It's HG or Planes. HG has more scum equity, that's why he gets the rope (not to mention, scumclaiming by refusing to do the test). Next, Planes is the only person that is possible to be scum.

Spoiler: Are you sure about that? You weren't sure yesterday....

Would scum!LL replace out of a game where he is likely to win? currently entertaining Column C scenarios. I'm not townreading Peter Pan's recent posts. :/

[Rectiplanes]

Anyways, yes, this has gone on long enough.

VOTE: HoldenGolden

We are back to L-1

[Rectiplanes]

Yes, I was sure about that. I was doing it as a reaction test for Kirari's replacement. You can see my reason for it in my iso if you really did dig it. It's interesting how you left it out.

Kirari WAS townread. HG was townreading her. TM was townreading her. PP, if i recall, was also townreading her.

That's majority.

Yes, that's why I said:

Up until this point, in retrospect, Kirari is more widely townread than I remembered - I was the only one who was banging on a table saying KIRARI IS SCUM, and Tuxedo was only somewhat ambivalent and wanted some points cleared up.

As far as you playing with the idea of scumreading PeterPan, you said that was some sort of weird maybe test of Kirari's slot but then you just turned around, in the same post, and said:

If you guys agree, I want to speed this game up by doing 3bounty > Kirari > HG. Deal?

so if I seem confused as to what you exactly believe, it's because you are kinda impatient and bouncing around here. And if

Holden

isn't scum then

someone

is scum and it isn't me. I'd certainly second guess that a tracker actually exists in that case, even though that flies against what I know of LuckyLuciano and everything I feel out of the LL/PeterPan slot. Put yourself in my shoes - if Holden flips town, what would you be forced to figure in my spot?

All of which is interesting but only applies if Holden isn't scum, actually.

[Rectiplanes]

This "moment" has lasted since 2pm.

[Rectiplanes]

Yeah, these discussions basically boil down to "Which whackadoodle universe do we live in, if Holden isn't scum?".

[Rectiplanes]

In a TM/Pan/Planes final three, I vote for Pan, you follow HEM's advice and vote for me, and Pan will vote for me and town loses.

There is no way scum-me would have left Pan alive after last night. There is absolutely no way I would leave an un-CC'd power role to enter the final three after a possible Night 3, either. But I don't have any scum games to link to and show you how I'd think in those situations... so. Yeah. If LL fakeclaimed and flaked after getting in a won situation, I guess he really had it in a won situation.

I do ask fellow town, if there is a tomorrow, to consider the possibility of a column C, two goon, no tracker world.

[Rectiplanes]

holy shit that's a lot of words

HG what's your career

Just finished my freshman year at university (English Ba/Chemistry BS) and about to start working as a Walmart stocker.

I got some stuff to do this morning, but afterwards I'll continue

I discovered the game of mafia at the university. And that was... longer ago than I care to think about.

Like, Holden here wasn't even born then. Get offa mah lawn, whippersnapper.

[Rectiplanes]

This stuff is pretty good, Holden.

[Rectiplanes]

Kill, flip. If night falls, we look at LyLo. If not... yay town, we win. No point in putting off what must be done, right?

[Rectiplanes]

Kill, flip. If night falls, we look at LyLo. If not... yay town, we win. No point in putting off what must be done, right?

I need to be killed since there is actually a very strong counter argument any scum could form that I picked up + forcing scum to be in a position to have to stick their neck out to secure lylo.

Peoples reaction to the cli2d case (like tuxedos) should be closely observed for obv. Reasons.

Me dieing also clears one of you by you also dying so it more beneficial to town.

Yes.... that was why I said we should kill and flip, rather than sit around sweating about it.

[Rectiplanes]

It's late here, too; going into why I liked it would take a bit longer than I want to spend tonight. Maybe tomorrow. (Please don't call me in to work unexpectedly again. I want to actually sleep in on a day off...). I'd say the main point of value was getting me to reconsider the Clidd hammer-hesitation. I had previously read that as completely town because, well, I made my views that town-Clidd freezing up in indecision seemed reasonable but scum-Clidd shouldn't have been THAT hesitant, but you gave a case for why he might have found it a pickle he wanted to get out of. The toxicity surrounding LL/Kirari might have seemed a promising way out until it turned into a stagnant radioactive pile of destruction, but then Lucky bailed out and then Clidd bailed out right after. Of course, why did scum-Clidd bail if the logjam he was frozen over had the possibility of finally breaking up? Lucky's replacement might well do something else...

But for a bit of (non-game) deduction: based on time zone and other things you've said... you live in eastern North Carolina and to to ECU?

[Rectiplanes]

No, I don't live in NC; I live in the Sunshine State. I have relatives who worked at Duke before they retired but know no one at ECU. (I went to U-Florida, as mentioned earlier in the thread)

[Rectiplanes]

Your chicken coop was underwater during a hurricane, yet you were going to drive to college while still working in the area... I figured you were too close to the ocean to be going to the research triangle schools. But, now that I think of it, the flooding could come from rainwaters being concentrated by the more rugged terrain further inland. I'm used to Florida hurricanes: absolute devastation near the coast, with huge floods everywhere, but living in a pancake flat state has advantages inland.

Not that I enjoy them. I have to go to work whether or not a hurricane has destroyed everything (or, for that matter, if there is a nasty pandemic raging), and hurricanes will bring the ocean to my front lawn.

[Rectiplanes]

Except I had loudly pounded on the table wanting to hang PP if he survived to this day... if HEM were the last mafia, he'd have brought PP and I along.

[Rectiplanes]

Correct. It's not HEM.

It's not me; I wouldn't have killed PeterPan on Night 3 because I'd have already killed him on Night 2 if I were scum..

It's Tuxedo Mask.

You.

[Rectiplanes]

Got more incoming, their interactions with Kirari are a bit of a hot mess.

Also, Planes seemed the most prepared for the unexpected Kirari killing and used it as a way to fast track the death of HG as you suspected. They came in swinging that with a vote on Holden, and using the kill to shade Holden even further.

You aren't even trying to make a case for HEM, are you? Because I kinda could, I just view it as way behind the likelihood of scum-you. But there's no hesitation... right into 1vs1 with me.

I was surprised by the Kirari killing, and came up with two explanations, both of which were wrong. Why would scum-me stick his neck out like that... to hang HG, who was fairly heavily scumread?

Anyways, if it is HEM, and we're following his plan -

Spoiler: Deaths are according to HEM's Master Plan?

ok

im getting a little impatient

i do think it's kirari and 3bounty. i can't underestimate kirari's scumplay and say she's town because of her posts. it's obvious that our last scum (if scum!3bounty is correct) is a powerscum who acts like town. In my recent re-read, I was trying to find town posts that meant to stir the conversation into pro-scum situations. Her PR bait and hard defense of 3bounty comes to mind. Not to mention, she throws around scum teams like peanuts without narrowing her POV. Also, she proposes a scum!LL scenario which makes no sense but puts it out there anyway and asks people to seriously consider it. Recently, in 3bounty's last posts, he reminds it of us.

i was doing a thing in which i'm trying to bait kirari's replacement to hint that LL could be scum, and should be lynched. i never thought it was possible.

If you guys agree, I want to speed this game up by doing 3bounty > Kirari > HG. Deal?

Hmm.... hmm.

[Rectiplanes]

Fine, we'll end this in the next six hours.

HEM, I'm saying that, in terms of WIFOM-inducing bullshit, you seem to the the most comfortable with it. And the way things are going, well, it is in accordance with your preferred order of players being eliminated (as stated, 3b, Kirari, Holden). It might well be you... on the other hand, Holden's case against Tux's slot is pretty good. And Clidd not eventually making up his mind, pressure or not, to lynch 3bounty...

[Rectiplanes]

You know, fuck it. No points for timidity.

VOTE: TuxedoMask

Alea iacta est

[Rectiplanes]

UNVOTE: TuxedoMask

[Rectiplanes]

What did you think about Tux's reaction to the vote?

[Rectiplanes]

At least I considered scum-HEM before voting. But, y'know, your oddly calm reaction makes me think you're the one we're looking for.

--someone puts up a vote in 3-man LyLo
--Tux "Oh, I'll just close HEM's ISO, no biggie"

[Rectiplanes]

HEM is wigging out, Tux is not.... makes me wonder.

[Rectiplanes]

Frankly, in my POV, I saw that vote as scum indicative. If you were truly considering me as a lynch, why did you lolvoted Tux there?

To see how stressed he was by the vote, of course.

[Rectiplanes]

I read you as much less likely to be the scum. If you react quickly and hammer, good on you, you earned it. If not, good on us, we earned it (sorry for freaking you out).

[Rectiplanes]

I've got to make some mashed potatos, brb

[Rectiplanes]

Tell me where your head is, buddy.

It's saying TuxedoMask is scum, because even the one case I can make against you sounds rather lame. Also, we're short on time, and I saw you were likely around, so I decided to confirm it wasn't you. You didn't hammer, good, scum is Tuxedo.

Now that my potatos are mashed, we mash scum:

VOTE: TuxedoMask

and if turns out HEM is scum and was on the toilet or whatever earlier, good on him, he earned it.

[Rectiplanes]

short on time because blitzing

[Rectiplanes]

If HEM had brought PP along, it would have been lights out; I was bullshitting about voting for him, and was figuring if HEM were scum, he'd bring PP and I along.

[Rectiplanes]

Yes, this game is over. Siiigh. Would have preferred to win, though.

P-edit: Yeah, Holden's read helped HEM a lot here.

[Rectiplanes]

Prior to Holden making that argument, I was thinking "Tuxedo is least likely to be scum, other than myself," and went to "Actually, there is a decent chance Tuxedo is scum - if Holden flips town, of course".

[Rectiplanes]

I assume HEM saw my joking "plan" offered to 3bounty and said "Sure, let's go with that."

P-Edit: Sure, let's blame Holden. It has nothing to do with me saying FUCK IT and rolling the dice.

[Rectiplanes]

What was your initial reaction to that reaction vote I ducked in and out with? Were you getting a drink or something?

[Rectiplanes]

I'm not sure what you want from me? From my perspective Scum!HEM could have been on the toilet when that vote happened.

He is... Tuxedoracle

[Rectiplanes]

Well, the scumreading did nothing, Tuxedo's kinda "whatever" reaction is what actually sold me, along with you not voting in that brief window.

[Rectiplanes]

VOTE: Blair

They aren't even in this game, but I'm not letting that stop them.

[Rectiplanes]

Or me, for that matter. Anyways. Good game on HEM.

P-Edit: Yeah, I'm finished with my Newbie game days, at least until I pop in as a SE. I was thinking of heading to Mayfair and the micros as the next step but I don't know.

[Rectiplanes]

Yes, Holden was instrumental in making me change my mind - up until his long post/argument, I read your actions as town-Clidd frozen by deteriorating gamestate; this was reinforced by 3bounty being scum, as he was one of the people deliberately placing pressure on you.

However - I will give Monkey full points for bringing TuxedoMask and I to LyLo, because I was suspicious of HEM and decided to be really loud on my suspicions of PeterPan. I figured that if HEM were scum - and I did consider this a decent probability on Day 3 - he would bring PeterPan and I along to LyLo. I was prepared for that; I was prepared to see a scum-Tuxedo bring PeterPan and I along to LyLo, too. I even entertained some WIFOM scenarios where I was the NK. Being in LyLo with Tuxedo and HEM was unexpected and took heat off HEM that I don't even think he knew existed. Then I decided to play with fire and gauge reactions based on that...

Eh. I'll take a fair chunk of the blame for this.

[Rectiplanes]

I suggest going off, pouring yourself one and doing some simple sudoku or other puzzles - calms and levels the mind, gets you back in the right problem-solving state. Though, when I was putting myself in your shoes at that point (and pointing out that town Clidd would be under a ton of stress, but scum Clidd would not, because at most one person is scum and town has given plenty of reasons to hang anybody, absolutely anybody; scum could hammer anyone and not have to worry about the repercussions), I would have simply taken a drink and gone all in on somebody, just to shake town out of the mess and enforce two days of calm on Kirari and Lucky. It would have made the gamestate much less messy, and focus is easier to regain when everyone is taking an enforced two-day break.