Mini Normal 2135 (Endgame)

[PranaDevil]

VOTE: Prana

Devil be gone!

VOTE: Luca

No U.

Also, my first game back in a while. So expect me to need to shake off some rust. (Ooh, scum preparing to return to this as defense later? Who knows?)

[PranaDevil]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Persivul

Bad boy, dirty boy, to your bed, to your rug.

[PranaDevil]

UNVOTE:

Let's not make it L-2

VOTE: Tanner

[PranaDevil]

Ummmmm, OK.. Weird random votes all around.
I think PranaDevil is scum.
VOTE: LucaBlight

Erm... your theory and your vote don't add up.

[PranaDevil]

Any reason you switched to a bw vote after a joke vote?

To build a wagon. What's the point of RVS if no one is pressured?

I obviously don't scumread Persival right now. But I don't townread him either.

I mean... at this exact moment in time, nobody should be townreading anyone (well... bar one person, but y'know... anyone scum reading them needs a slap).

[PranaDevil]

And as I say that, Tanner happily townreads George... wha? Explain yourself now.

This early on, that feels like scum buddying someone.

[PranaDevil]

How many pages does a game have to have before we can start throwing out ideas?

I'll go with "let's get everyone posting and solidly out of RVS stage", and even then, always question your town reads. Each new day phase double back and check on them just in case. Anyone who is 100% certain someone is town is either a Cop or Scum, or perhaps a Mason at a push.

As for scum reading someone... not really, because we should suspect everyone as potential scum, and call out scummy behaviour so others can also note it and track it as well. The more town aware of my thoughts, the more they can consider them going forwards. Doubly so in the event of my flip.

[PranaDevil]

Everyone is town or scum regardless of anything else.

I don't have even the slightest read on George, definitely nothing to even slightly suggest there's even a modicum of "he looks town" about his posts.

In fact, my only read so far stems from you (Tanner for those who end up looking at this in ISO) putting Persivul at L-2 so early in RVS. (Yes, scum would be stupid to quick hammer there, yadda yadda, wifom etc.).

As regards your last point, I'll concede that yes, if you have a legitimate town read on someone, that's fair. But again, not sure where you get that town read from.

[PranaDevil]

The L-2 is more a scum leaning thing in my mind than a faulty town read. The potential scum buddying is more of a "come back to this later if it's needed" for me, and others.

I'm also happy to admit that so far, with so few of us truly participating, that while I have you as my number 1 on list of "potential scum" everyone else is tied for second solely due to how early it is, and how little some have participated.

[PranaDevil]

The L-2 is more a scum leaning thing in my mind than a faulty town read.

What's wrong with putting someone to L-2? Hammering would be an obvious scum claim.

Like, I get this mindset if it was a newbie game, but most people have the incentive to either unvote or not hammer.

I've seen people enter and just throw a random vote on without paying attention to the thread, especially that early in the game. Not worth the risk.

[PranaDevil]

You seem a little averse to votes, if I may say so. Isn't a bullshit lynch a clue to who is mafia? I'm never for townies dying, but I think we're all aware that they do and quite often - that usually gives clues, don't you think?

Are you somehow suggesting a quick lynch day one is somehow a good thing?

A lynch is good, a quick lynch where we don't really get any solid information, and could end up running down the wrong direction because "X quick-hammered on day 1, must be scum" would be a bad way to go, but it would also allow scum to do it and go "whoops" right after.

Yes, we can get information from a town lynch, that doesn't mean I want it to happen on page 2.

[PranaDevil]

We can get much more information without a quick lynch though. So why be happy with one?

[PranaDevil]

I think my issue is, Prana, that you threw down two votes, then criticised someone else for doing something not dissimilar to you.

I threw down two RVS votes, then criticised Tanner for putting them at L-2.

And you subsequently have agreed that putting someone at L-2 is something scum would do rather than hammer... so you agree with me, while telling me I was wrong to criticise Tanner for it...

[PranaDevil]

I'd be interested in a thing I've never seen or done before.
Feel free to call me a dummy dumb-dumb if it suits you, but

what if we all agree that Wake doesn't vote for anyone today?

Hear me out - we obviously want his input and reads throughout the day as much as possible, simply because he is the only conf.town in the game so far.
But we won't be able to lynch scum 100% of the time D1 anyway, even if we had three conf.townies.
So my point is, that

whoever we end up lynching D1, and whatever their flip might end up being, the wagon will only consist of unconfirmed players.

Does that make sense for anyone?

I like the theory. Namely that we can look back at the wagon to gain more information.

On the flip side, we know we've eliminated a town player from the running for how many town we need to lynch (as an aside... if I'm on the phone, my phone typos that to lunch, advance warning) scum, making it slightly harder to do so.

How much harder I'm not certain, and can't be arsed doing the maths for it, but if anyone else has theories on the suggestion I'm up for hearing them.

[PranaDevil]

I think regardless of if Wake is on the wagon or not, as confirmed town, he's definitely who should be pushing everyone as hard as possible. At the very least because we want to make certain we get the most use from that slot if he is killed tonight.

[PranaDevil]

While I'll admit I've only skimmed the game (been busy today), I'm of the view that there's no way there's two millers. Without the time to properly look at both players posts I can't say if I trust Drew over mavs, but I also don't see the logic in mavs fake claiming miller day one either as if we lynch Drew and he's actually a miller, we definitely lynch mavs right after, so would be an awful play just from a logic standpoint. Meaning just from that thought process it makes Drew almost guarenteed scum. (Pretty sure someone earlier pointed out they pushed for votes, but then didn't vote anyone, which is also rather scummy.

More than happy to see a Drew lynch today

[PranaDevil]

@Prana Devil: with a counter-claim, that means at least one is scum right? If I were scum and fake claiming Drew’s miller claim, that would effectively be trading one scum for the miller (drew flips miller and I’m lynched as a liar day 2). That’s such a horrible deal for scum and why would I fake claim a miller to force a mislynch of a miller? Drew fake claimed miller cause he thought he could get away with it. Or else he should just fake claim cop/nurse as a last resort. That way a counterclaim outs the cop/nurse. And he’s trading one scum for a townie power role. But to think scum!Mavs would fake counterclaim a miller to force a mislynch of miller!Drew is ludicrous.

That's pretty much what I said.

Drew is saying there's two millers, and trying to suggest that means there is "3 townies" but... that only works if we assume double miller is a good setup, and I'm not so sure I buy that. It weakens town massively.

I will say though, if we have any millers at all, that means we must have a cop of some description, which means we should try not to announce to many "confirmed" town... mainly because on the off chance we did have two millers, well... scum have 3 town players they can avoid shooting if they're wanting to hit a cop.

That being said... and this may be a ludicrous idea, but it's in my head and I'd rather post it for others to chime in on. What if we don't have ANY millers? What if it's a double bluff from scum? We lynch one of them, the other coasts to victory under a "confirmed town" heading.

[PranaDevil]

Because he's the counterclaim?

And all counterclaims are right?

No, but usually a counterclaim comes late in the game, not day one to a miller claim, which would lead to them being lynched day 2.

A scum counterclaiming usually happens in lylo or mylo.

[PranaDevil]

Una, you said you were ready for the lynch in 125, and yet in 165 said you were all about more discussion.
They contradict each other there.

Out of interest, Una, give your case on Tanner.

[PranaDevil]

Prada

I am not a handbag.

- Lynch Drew sooner rather than later.

What? No.

More discussion is always good. The only time that is not the case is in a mylo situation where we want to no lynch, where the less information given to the scum is good.

Right now, we gain extra info to use tomorrow regardless of who dies tonight. Rushing the lynch through is a terrible idea. I'm 100% behind a Drew lynch (for my reasoning, see basically everything said up to this point), I'm just not up for doing it right now. I'll happily hammer when the time comes though.

[PranaDevil]

@farside, why are you viewing Drew as town? I assume as much as you viewed persivul as scum seemingly due to his vote on Drew.

(Also, I've spotted something rather interesting that I wish to bring up, but only after farside's response)

[PranaDevil]

@farside, why are you viewing Drew as town? I assume as much as you viewed persivul as scum seemingly due to his vote on Drew.

(Also, I've spotted something rather interesting that I wish to bring up, but only after farside's response)

*puts on crazy/wifom hat*

I don't see scum claiming that early with little pressure. To be fair I was scum reading Drew from the start too. His post to Tanner about George was a bit much. His complaint about the votes was hypocritical and bias to say the least. But with manvs claim he believed in it and he even talked about it here with in regards to wifom: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p11747814.
He could have stayed quiet after the CC or he could have OMGUS voted manvs as scum.
Scum is going to know they are up shit creek with a CC and get defensive. Instead he is still scum hunting. questing people and know he will be lynched.
if he flips scum I would give him a high five for the deceiving so well.

Interesting theory, and something I'd never considered, but it's definitely worthy of thinking about. I'm still not quite sure I buy a double miller set up though. Have you any thoughts on if we have two millers, or if one of the two is lying?

As for the interesting thing I spotted...

You can lynch me today if you need. I’m happy to be a martyr if you can’t settle on another townie.

So you're that sure we couldn't lynch scum?

^
Scumslip.

The only people who know, factually, whether Drew is scum or not are, in fact, the scum. This line feels very much like Persivul knows Drew is town.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Persivul

[PranaDevil]

How is that a scumslip?

He's not saying "Drew is scum", he's saying "So we should lynch you instead of scum"

It reads very much like he knows Drew is town.

[PranaDevil]

@Knightmare

I've said elsewhere that I'm not voting Drew right now, but am happy to be the hammer. I do not wish to rush a lynch when there's information to gather. If you were doing a true ISO of me you would have seen that. So why did you deliberately omit it to try and make out I refuse to vote Drew?

[PranaDevil]

You could not flail like a fish and actually try to have solved the game or at least looked at it from a different point of view. The WIFOM hasn't really sat well.

Suggesting Drew has "flail[ed] like a fish" is really bad. He's actually been pretty straight with what he's said. I'm not suggesting that makes him town, I AM suggesting that trying to paint what he's done as anything other than having a clear directive is at best stupidity, and at worst, scummy.

And I'm kind of leery of posting because as IC there's a very high likelihood Scum will try to buddy me to some extent, to get Town points.

Why is that a bad thing? I absolutely WANT to see scum buddying you. It gives us more information. You're the one person who should be posting a lot. You should be pushing every little thing anyone says because you need to make damned certain we get information from slots regarding how you push them, because there's no uncertainty that you are town as you're mod-confrmed. Not posting, and not reading the thread fully, is extremely anti-town.

Sorry, dead by day two. I'm the obvious mafia kill, and I honestly don't think it's wise for me to try and 'fake it' to simply be a hero. Better to do my duty and help town.

And yes, I am.

Miller!Drew - as the miller, I’m the NK. Don’t worry about me guys

@mav: Do you think, given your future status as Shrodinger's town (BTW, I very much like that phrase), you should push for your own lynch to ensure town does not have such confusion moving forward?

Also miller!Drew - as the miller, mavs you should push for your own lynch come day 2

This is weird coming from an actual miller!Drew.

No it's not.

Drew's post 81 was made when he was the ONLY miller claim. You made your CC after that point. Therefore Drew's viewpoint has changed.

Again, that doesn't say "Drew = town", as scum would definitely say "hey, I will die tonight" and if they survive go "WIFOM". But to suggest that Drew's post when he was the only miller claim should be the same as what he says AFTER a miller CC is very, very poor.

[PranaDevil]

@PranaDevil: let me try to clarify this. Drew’s 81 was the resolution of the miller role. This was when he believed to be the only miller. If/when he is lynched, I will be the only unresolved miller claim come day 2 with Drew gone. Therefore it’s the same situation as one unresolved miller claim. So why shouldn’t his 81 apply to that scenario as well in day2? Instead Drew suggests I should push my own lynch which wouldn’t line up with his “let me be NK’ed by mafia.” In order words, suggesting an unresolved miller would attract mafia’s attention and scare them to target him at night, why then would he suggest an unresolved miller claim push their own lynch? Drew’s view of the miller role and how it should be resolved has changed. 81 was with one miller claim at that point. Day 2 (presumably after Drew’s lynch) there will be one miller claim as well. Does that make sense? It’s more how the single miller claim should be resolved.

Because it's still a different scenario.

Claimed Miller solo is still different to Claimed Miller with a dead Miller. (Assuming that's what happens)

I'm not saying I agree with it (nobody who is town should EVER push for their own lynch, as lynching known town is a stupid idea, and the miller would know if they are town).

If Drew flips Miller, there will still be TWO miller claims, the fact one has been lynched does not change that, and it drastically changes the dynamic, as we're going into this lynch assuming Drew will flip scum, based solely off the "Why would scum CC just to die day 2?" situation.

If Drew does, indeed, flip town, we will obviously need to consider other possibilities, and a huge one will obviously be "do we believe there to be two millers?" And... we're lynching Drew off the back of the idea there's unlikely to be two Millers... so what actually changes if he flips town? Are you suggesting everyone should just accept there's "obviously two millers"? Because it would be your word against that then.

I highly doubt there's two millers, so if Drew flips town, I'm more than happy to come after you tomorrow. I will still be looking elsewhere to see what happened, and what interactions happened and where, but to ignore how unlikely two millers would be, would be extremely poor.

[PranaDevil]

I'm struggling to see what town gains from that tbh. Maybe if Una could talk more about what kind of reactions he was expecting and what the lack of reaction actually means in this context, then it'd be helpful?

I'll also point out Persivul is also pushing to rush the day to completion for the sake of it, and cut off extra discussion, seemingly to stop "WIFOM" discussion... and seems to ignore the fact that it's more we can look at later.

[PranaDevil]

George buddied me.

Mavs is either outright town or the ballsiest scum player on this site.

Pers is ok, I think.

Panda and Knightmare have questions. I read Knightmare as scum IMHO.

Una might be VI but reads scummy to to me.

Pran and Riabi went mostly quiet after the CC. Riabi’s refusal to talk due to my walls (apparently) was not the reaction I expected.

That’s all I got.

I mean... I've very much not gone "mostly quiet" after the CC. Sure, I've not gone looking through all of the past posts, which I'll aim to do over night, but I've definitely been posting, just because I'm not able to reply constantly doesn't mean I've gone quiet.

[PranaDevil]

I'm a rolecop.

Mavs is indeed a miller.

I'm headed camping see you in two days.

So... we have a cop AND rolecop... and the rolecop just claims immediately, knowing they would be a target tonight?

(For the record, why would we have millers if we don't have a cop? The roles are purely there to make a cop check them).

I don't believe we have both, or at least not both on town side. I do believe if there's a rolecop they are more likely to be scum.

Okay, so the game is not COMPLETELY bastard at least.

You are going to blindly believe ol' Persivul?

Will also note farside was very suspicious of Persivul before she was offed.

VOTE: Persivul

Also, I note only one kill, so either we have a doc and they protected mavs, or we have no vig (or it's an even night only one, which if this game has two millers, is entirely possible).

[PranaDevil]

@Prana Devil:

I actually hate that claim from Persivul.

It’s extremely easy to fake as scum. I claimed miller and if Persivul is scum he knows I’m not his scum buddy and that I’m likely not fake claiming so he can take a pretty low risk gamble and say I’m miller in an attempt to validate his claim.

As for the night kill, Farside’s death does link to Persivul. In addition to that, Farside did express how even if Drew flipped miller, she would fight against my lynch day 2. With her gone, there’s now less resistance to lynch me and if I’m lynched, when I flip miller, that will give Persivul’s claim more credit. I think the NK of farside might have been twofold as just described. I would vote Persivul but voting someone on V/LA seems in bad faith. So I’ll wait to do so.

I will say,

two types of cops with two millers does make sense right

?

Not a fan of this, it casts suspicion on Persivul, while also going "but actually, it would be right to have two types of cop".

And if we DO have two types of cop... why would Persivul fake claim right out of the gate like that?

Persivul is 100% a rolecop, I doubt he fake claimed immediately like that, it's just... is he town or scum?

There's a lot to do with mafia not killing wake, killing PRs is a higher priority for them. Yes wake can't be lynched and they'll have to kill him at some point but killing him night 1 would be pointless.

Plus, any doc role we may have would be on Wake, absolutely no point in risking shooting the only confirmed town role.

What I don't understand though is why that claim confirms Persivul? If he is a scum role-cop, mavs seems like a pretty easy/convenient target to gain town cred.

Because why? mavs otherwise would've been a free mislynch. why would scum!Persi stand up, claim Rolecop, throw away a mislynch option, and then screw himself further because he's gonna get under fire once a few Days pass and he doesn't get killed?

Not mentioning the fact that two Millers with Town not being able to confirm either (so with no role like Persi's) is borderline bastard. If there is a second Town Rolecop claim, sure, we can talk. But honestly. The fact someone would legit suspect Persi here is insane.

Actually... that's a fair point, plus Persivul 100% has to be giving us reads if he stays alive for more than one day, it's no good him going "I won't say who I checked" every night. Because the chance of him hitting a PR each night is ridiculous, so we would either have him pretending he investigated scum and calling them vanilla town, which would just backfire eventually. Such as when he doesn't die, or when actual power roles start falling instead.

So yes, on further reflection, I don't see the logic behind a Persivul scum rolecop gambit there this early, nor a pairing of him and mavs. If both are town, scum has to shoot one of them tonight anyway, going to the following day with 3 confirmed town (or at least two town who likely will back each other up, and Wake who is mod confirmed town) is way too dangerous for them, so scum would have to take them out tonight.

I read that yeah.
But if NEITHER of them gets lynched today, and we make another mislynch...think of the amount of WIFOM we have to deal with.

Do we lynch the claimed Miller, OR the one who confirmed that role?
Well, obviously Pers flipping town!RoleCop would confirm mavs as well, but it doesn't work the other way around.
Also - Pers is the one who might be able to retrieve more results for us, unlike mavs.

So no, IMO for Pers to be "townbinned" it doesn't require for him to yield any more results to us.
He can claim "no result" tomorrow, and it's still just as likely that he is speaking the truth, as it is for scum to have a roleblocker.
WINE ALL AROUND.

So... you suggest we lynch one of them no matter what? I want to be certain that's what you are saying.

Also, wagon on Lucas seems pretty good based solely on mavs post above, I want to hear Lucas' response to it.

UNVOTE:

I don't believe Persivul is scum based on the above and after a rethink (well... after Tanner's post)

[PranaDevil]

Also, I note only one kill, so either we have a doc and they protected mavs, or we have no vig (or it's an even night only one, which if this game has two millers, is entirely possible).

There's a lot to do with mafia not killing wake, killing PRs is a higher priority for them. Yes wake can't be lynched and they'll have to kill him at some point but killing him night 1 would be pointless.

Plus, any doc role we may have would be on Wake, absolutely no point in risking shooting the only confirmed town role.

Is this weird? First he suggests the doc is on me (why? I have no idea. With Drew flipping miller, I wouldn’t protect the other claimed miller if I was a doc) then he absolutely believes the doc was protecting Wake88.

Is the first one here speculating who a vig would target (trying to put themselves in the vigs’s shoes) and the other reads like justification of why scum didn’t target Wake?

Why not mention Wake in the first post instead of me? Cause of the target who was killed in Farside. To believe a vig would target her is ridiculous and therefore killed by scum. So only one death with two killing roles would mean I was saved by the doc from the vig which is extremely unlikely as the doc would be protecting Wake88. The adding of me in the first post reads like Prana trying to speculate on a vig knowing they shot at Farside.

This is weird right? Am I making sense?

Not weird.

If we had a vig, they absolutely would have targeted you. Or at least should have. The only way we get a single kill WITH a vig, is if a potential doc targets you. So either we don't have a vig (entirely plausible, even likely), or we do, and for some reason the doc targeted you (which, I agree would be weird).

The realistic target for a doc would be Wake, which would very much NOT be a vig target.

I do not see a vig hitting farside, while the doc protected wake with scum targeting him too. Thus, the likely option is we have no vig.

I've no clue what the set up is, but I'm thinking double miller, rolecop, IC may be the town side of things. Maybe a doc as well. I do not believe, at this stage, that Persivul is lying about the Rolecop role, that also means I now trust mavs, and Wake is already confirmed. To me, that gives us three solid town positions, and we should look amongst the rest (and yes, I accept that means I should be included in that for everyone else) of us for the scum.

[PranaDevil]

It was more me just replying to things as I read them, and having a shit memory about stuff. But it still stands. The only reason you're still alive is one of two options:

1 - We don't have a vig

2 - We have a vig and the doc protected you.

I vote option 1.

[PranaDevil]

@mavs talk to me about your GB read please.

I will say that George Bailey accepted the possibility of two millers so much easier than anyone else that it felt off. Meaning if he was scum, he would know Drew is a miller as the only players who knew Drew was a miller is Drew and scum. But if he did know Drew was miller, with the amount he defended Drew, the tiny amount of town Cred scum!George would gain didn’t even make sense as a CC’ed miller almost certainly leads to a lynch and anyone on the wagon would therefore have plausible deniability. So town cred for not being on the Drew wagon specifically is a wash. Scum didn’t need to be on that wagon to push a lynch.

I agree with this fully.

But.....352 and 433 are both weird implying George knew Drew would flip miller. This combined with the fact that George put Drew at L-1 after spending so much of the day supporting the theory of a 2 miller set up with the only real justification for flipping and voting Drew is an awkward post in 350. All the posts mentioned in this clumsy paragraph are clumsy themselves with “i guess, if I have to vote Drew I will, but I think he’s town.”

There was zero chance Drew was surviving day 1 after you CC'd him. The only reason you aren't being lynched right now is because Persivul Rolecopped you, meaning either you are both town, or you played a blinder of a shot, and it's worked... of course, it needs to continue working for that to pay off in that case. So the above, is understandable, because even if someone believes there's a chance of double miller, keeping them both alive day 1 is also completely stupid.

[quote="In post 539, mavsfan41"How do you feel about the Luca Blight wagon? Prana makes sense to myself but I’m having a real hard time explaining it. George would be 3rd I suppose on that list.[/quote]
I only make sense because I've said "ABC" and you've decided I said "XYZ", despite it obviously not being the case. Which makes me really want to think you are scum because of it, but I also understand that it would be very much an OMGUS response, and also, I don't believe, at this stage, that Persivul is lying, meaning you must be town.

Question to everyone... do we know if the scum have day talk?

[PranaDevil]

Bah

@mod, mind fixing my quote tags?

[PranaDevil]

Question to everyone... do we know if the scum have day talk?

I don’t know if I’m tunneling too much onto Prana Devil but this is awkward. There’s no really reason to bring this up with the context of what he’s said in the rest of the post other than to slip this in there to play innocent “if I ask about day talk, it suggests I’m not scum or I’d know the answer.”

Actually.. if there's day talk, the "why would scum fake claim miller?" strategy is blown out of the water. If the scum have day talk, it's entirely possible that scum have a rolecop, and suggested someone fake claim miller, and roll with the rolecop "clearing" the miller.

Day talk would literally allow the scum to bypass stressing about how to off someone.

It's guarenteed the first miller claim would be lynched after a CC. When Drew flipped town, it's nigh on guaranteed that town would look at the other miller, it was as much as said so the day before. But what if the plan was always for the scum rolecop to claim right after?

I think a full read through is in order.

I'm very unhappy with how mavs immediately is trying to get me lynched by taking my stuff out of context, and he's doing it very deliberately, as even after explaining the facts to him, he's continuing to claim something else entirely. It's shifty as hell, and I'm wondering if scum made one hell of a ploy.

Now... if there's day talk, that's the only way I would see that working, I cannot see scum working that out independently, it would be too risky, but it would work really well if they were passing info back and forth.

Admittedly, if scum have daytalk, and a rolecop, I wonder where the town PRs are, because that would leave us with a miller and an IC. I'd expect at bare minimum a cop (due to the miller), but of course, that also means the cop would need to check Persivul tonight to make certain they're not screwing about town.

[PranaDevil]

And were giving Prana a pass as well as Mavs. Do you believe the Rolecop to be town sided then?

Tanner has brought this up before... but I am not the claimed rolecop, that would be Persivul.

Tanner never mentioned me, I'm not sure how you are confusing it.

[PranaDevil]

Persivul could be a scum going for the towncred when mavs flips.

Town having two Millers with no ways to confirm either one of them (i.e. - without something like a Rolecop) cannot be Normal as it basically gives scum 2 free mislynches.

Also, are you serious in saying Panda is scum, or...?

This is very much true.

It's both one alignment or the other.

Either it's some weird day talk plan and mavs/Persivul agreed to work it like that together, and they're both scum, or they are both town.

I'm not convinced 100% either way. I see both sides, and I do worry I believe they're scum because of mavs tunnelling on me via blatantly twisting what I was saying even after it was clearly explained. I want to believe they are both town, as I don't feel scum would throw all of their eggs in one basket quite so early, but then I wonder why mavs is twisting my words so much, and so deliberately...

[PranaDevil]

I'll be busy most of today, so my checking in will more be to check the song contest page than this I'm afraid. If I have time later I'll try and do some checking over everything up to now, and if not, I'll make time tomorrow.

[PranaDevil]

Drew flipping miller would actually give more credit to my miller CC.

No it wouldn't.

Why would scum!mavs CC an actual miller knowing he’ll flip miller?

You mean if scum have day talk an planned it?

You can’t push for my lynch for the fact that Persivul cleared me. No one would vote with you regardless of how hard you tried.

A great reason for scum to make a ploy that their rolecop investigated you. While investigating elsewhere, either for a proper target tonight, or to know who is "safe" to announce as vanilla when pushed.

There's only a few days of mislynching for scum to win, In a game with 13 players, let's say 3 are scum. That's 4 total mislynches for us to lose (even if the doc succeeds one night). We've got one out of the way. Scum rolecop "confirms" the "miller" as town, and investigates elsewhere. They hit a PR they kill it tonight, then wait to see what their next investigation brings.

If they hit a VT, then tomorrow they clear the VT, and that VT agrees they must be town, while they kill anyone who they've not already targeted. At this point they can bring the game to LYLO without really breaking a sweat, and if they get suspicion on them they try and turn it around on whoever is accusing them (see above). If they didn't hit a VT, they search that night, and either are forced to "announce" a PR they hit, or they hit a VT and can safely announce it still.

In LYLO, they end up being their group or "confirmed" town (which would be the fake miller, the scum rolecop, and the confirmed VT/PR) making it very easy to steer a mislynch.

I think whatever happens today, if we have a cop, they have to, without fail, investigate Persivul.

[PranaDevil]

Apologies for the length of this, but what mavs said earlier was right, I've done not too much scum hunting, and too much discussion about game set up (which in itself isn't bad, but by itself, helps nobody).

So this is where I'm at on my re-read:

Una #26... Still not a fan of. Jumps in, after something he could mention has happened (Tanner taking Persivul to L-2), but ignores it to call me scum and vote for Luca. He never mentions this again.

Una #61 Suggests to not have Wake vote anywhere (I'll admit I considered the idea right after)

Tanner #67 No real comment towards why a Drew vote was good, just did so. Just piggybacked on with Persivul. Extremely unhappy looking back at that.

Persivul #68 Is very much against Wake not voting due to how tough it would be to lynch scum. I mention this as it could be argued he had to make sure he didn't come off shifty by simply ignoring it if people know he normally would do it (I'm not checking other games for that info either). But, right there, it feels more town to want all the town to be able to lynch as it's harder to lynch scum if one town we know won't be on the wagon. Scum are likely to want the least town pushing for them as possible.

Persivul #92 actually feels like town giving people a heads up about the time limit. Would have been easy to just ignore it as scum.

Tanner #101 is bad, very bad. Just randomly votes Knightmare for no reason I can see.

Una #125 suggesting "we are ready for the lynch now" still rubs me up the wrong way. Less talking is good for scum, and bad for town.

farside #126 Says she found a game where two people claimed Miller, and both were town. I'm afraid she was wrong, looking at it, TwoInAMillion and MortFeld both claimed Miller. The game ended in a town win with TIAM's lynch, so he could not have been town. So still no evidence of two millers in a normal.

GB #144 Bought the double miller thing very fast.

Una #165 states he had a "reason" for not voting Drew... despite in #125 saying we are ready for the lynch. My top read is currently Una at this point as it feels like he knows Drew will turn green, and wants to avoid it.

Una #167 votes Tanner seemingly at random.

Tanner #175 Buddies George, an he did so earlier in the game too. (As stated in Drew #177)

Tanner #181 talks only about if Drew were scum, it means George is likely to be town due to a poor defense of him, while Knightmare is likely to be scum due to the "turbobus". Drew however flipped town... ScumGeorge would buy the double miller thing faster than others if he knew both were town, while Knightmare could be town or scum with the fast voting.

Knightmare #195 pulled up my #143, well after doing other responses from before, and after, that post, and only did so because Riabi did so in #192

Persivul #241 is bad. Pushing for quick lynching of Drew, and suggesting the vig doesn't shoot if we have one, which... we have a perfect vig shot in the other miller after Drew flipped green. I'd rather we fixed the miller situation over not shooting. I see no town motivation for this.

farside #248 calls Persivul scum, I'm not entirely certain I see where she's coming from based on the post she shared. I do have a similar feeling from the above (which contradicts my earlier thought from #68 and #92)

This is up to the end of page 10. I'm going to have to call it quits there for the full page reading (I plan to pick it up tomorrow).

Biggest scum reads in no real order right now (as there's plenty still to read):
Una - #165, I feel he knew Drew would flip green.
Persivul - Pushing for a quick lynch, and suggesting the vig doesn't shoot the claimed miller? Erm...
Tanner - Buddying George, only talks about scum Drew, never considered Town Drew while discussing why he was ignoring George buying the two miller thing.
GB - Bought the two miller claim way too fast.

[PranaDevil]

Persivul #241 is bad. Pushing for quick lynching of Drew, and suggesting the vig doesn't shoot if we have one, which... we have a perfect vig shot in the other miller after Drew flipped green. I'd rather we fixed the miller situation over not shooting.

I see no town motivation for this.

I see no town motivation for this.

Are... Are you genuinely serious right now?

Yes, what benefit, if we have a big, is there to suggest the big keeps the Miller alive? No "Persivul is a rolecop" is not a defence.

[PranaDevil]

So you blindly believe the Rolecop thing?

You also think that there's no way that Miller claim is going to go ignored for the rest of the game?

A rolecop for town should go elsewhere. If it IS a town rolecop... it's been outedto save a miller, and will die tonight. So at best its dumb play, at worst its scummy.

[PranaDevil]

I'm not getting drawn into setup discussion again. You'll try and twist that into "Prana isn't scum hunting".

Let's just say, I'm not believing everything just because the claimed miller and rolecop told me to believe it.

And Mavs... really? If Persivul was a scum rolecop, why did he check you?

Right... you are aware he could lie about targeting you, right? If you are town, claiming he targeted you, while targeting elsewhere, gives him info while "clearing" you. (Read, giving him a buddy).

Or, you could be scum as well.

Admittedly, my posts from the start of day 2, to my big re-read past up to page 10, were more reactions to stuff, rather than fully keeping track (my memory is shit at the best of times). So yes, sometimes my thoughts won't quite match up. Hence I go back and reread. I also know I'm much more useful late game than early game, as my ability to scum hunt is better when evaluating past info.

[PranaDevil]

Or short answer:

Persivul is not confirmed town.

[PranaDevil]

The only thing I'm pondering, is that would scum!Pers claim rolecop here without knowing whether he'd be counterclaimed or not?

If he's a scum rolecop, yes.

[PranaDevil]

Actually

VOTE: PD

Let's see how much support this gets.

So... in the past you pulled me up on something long after you had ignored it, purely to latch onto it after someone else mentioned it, and now, after I actually start reading fully, and state I don't wish to get drawn into set up discussion... you try claiming that's all I'm trying to do...

Yeah, I don't like that at all, you feel like you are merely trying to hop around onto popular wagons and opinions and aren't really doing much else.

[PranaDevil]

Right, I've been noticing the time left, so I'm rushing today to get the re-read done (and I have a shit ton of stuff to get sorted elsewhere too... so I'm doing my best).

So up until lunch for me, I've got the following, which personally, is a hell of a thing, and I think I may even have a plausible scum team. I will note, this is up to the end of page 17. Anything that's happened since is not included in this, however I do not think it's going to change a great deal, maybe even solidify it more.

TL;DR - Scum team is likely Persivul, Una and Knightmare. Lynch in that order. You're welcome.

Persivul #250 still pushing to rush the lynch, which there is no town reason to do. Also "I'm mostly town read at this point" screams of "I'm town, do as I say" as Drew pointed out in #252. Less scum hunting, more giving orders.

mavsfan41 #254 I dunno... feels really like he's trying to suggest he's already confirmed town .... However, and it's a big however, this only works if Drew flipped scum. mavs entire argument is "so when Drew flips scum, why would you target me?" There's no consideration to if Drew flipped town. Now, this could just be very good play by mavs (so if you are scum, fair play, you got me), but at this stage, I'm happy to stick mavs in the conf. town position. I obviously have issues with him voting me, and everything lately, but I believe it's misdirected town, and not scum looking at me as an easy target. If I AM lynched though, scum are viewing me as an easy mislynch, because I won't lie... I am as I've played shockingly bad this game.

farside #261 gives a decent response to me asking why she viewed Drew as town.

Riabi #262 dismisses it entirely, but says nothing else. Not a fan of this.

Persivul #273 Erm... THIS DOES NOT MATCH UP WITH THE ROLECOP STUFF. Right, when I pointed out about Persivul in my last post, and suggesting the vig ignores the other claimed miller, everyone went "well, it's because he wanted to rolecop him". Yet here he is, later on, suggesting we just lynch the counter claim tomorrow if the first miller claim was town... Nah, at this stage Persivul is scummy scum scum. I'm calling it now.

Persivul #286 #287 #289 (Not linking them all) - All add nothing to the proceedings. But he's still doing an absolutely amazing job of not scum hunting in the slightest (and people are complaining about me doing that?!)

Riabi #291 blatantly says he's ignoring Drew now, asks if anyone is finding any value in his posts... which is ironic, as Riabi has done sweet eff all up to this stage. Entirely possible he's scum, and hoping others will just agree to ignore Drew going forward.

Una #299 I believe is the first time Rolecop was brought up anywhere, and he suggested it would give us "conftown" by looking at mavs. Interesting... Una/Persivul scum team I'm calling.

Knightmare #301 Misrepresents Drew quite badly here on reading over it now. Also talks about Drew "not scum hunting". So I looked over his history... and neither was he, in fact he stated in post #224 that he cannot produce content from nothing... I think we have the third person on the scum team.

Una #313 The second mention of a rolecop... Yeah, I'm pretty damned confident that Una and Persivul are scum right now. The only times a rolecop were mentioned before Persivul claimed it, were Una. It's too shifty for me to ignore. One of these two is dying today as far as I'm concerned, my vote will not go anywhere except one of them.

Knightmare #317 deliberately tries to make out I was ignoring Drew. I pointed it out at the time that he deliberately and wilfully ignored the fact I was willing to hammer Drew when the time came, while he was apparently going through my ISO. This is fake "scum hunting" quite clearly. Still happy with my scum team.

Persivul up to #342 (not linking again) is again providing absolutely no content. But definitely making himself seem like he's "helping" town.

GB up to #348 on page 14 is all null to me.

mavs #354 clearly accepts he's the day 2 lynch if Drew flips green. This goes against my previous feeling of a scum team including mavs and persivul, as mavs would not accept that, if that were the case, and it doesn't read like he's saying it just for town points, but as if that's the obvious next course of action.

Drew 369 makes a very good point regarding Una and George. Both blindly accepted the double miller thing, I mentioned it with George above, somehow feel I missed Una doing it. But I would say at least one of them is scum, which lines up with me thinking Una is scum earlier. Could be confirmation bias, but I do not believe both of them are town for them to buy such an outrageous claim so swiftly.

Panda #372 Is bad, I comment on it in #397 below, it still stands.

Persivul #392 Very much says "Not scum hunting today guys". Then continues to shit post.

Prana #397 I still stand by. Red Panda's #372 is really bad there.

Una #405 Sorry, bt every time someone points out something scummy Una does it's a "reaction test" or he responds by making out it's weird someone is attacking him for it, it feels very strongly of him gaslighting and making out people are being stupid for even questioning him. I don't like it.

Persivul #408 Still doing nothing, still only looking at Drew. Coasting through day one while making i seem like he's around. This needs lynching, and it needs lynching now.

Una #409 Is still acting like others are in the wrong for finding him scummy... but this reads weird. It reads like he's under pressure and is getting stressed abut being accused of scum, but is unwilling to look at anything other than his own focus on the millers, where he clearly wants both killed barring them being "lynched/vigged/confirmed"... which goes back to the rolecop stuff... yeah, this is scum.

Luca #410 and plenty up to it, I'm actually feeling a town vibe from, it seems like he's asking questions of people and wanting answers. I know he also said he was burned out and so was replaced, but I am not against the slot here.

Tanner #411 Same as Luca actually, I did an ISO of him and it feels like a lot of questions are asked, wanting to get actual thoughts and responses. Feels town to me.

VOTE: Persivul

[PranaDevil]

I'm happy to flip, as it will conftown mavs, but this should have been done earlier.

Starting a new wagon with 1 day left is pretty much a scum claim

. You know you should vote somewhere, but you don't want to vote your buddy.

Didn't you claim something Drew did was a scum claim too? I do not think that phrase means what you think it means.

Seriously Persivul, you can claim that crap all you want, but you've literally nothing you can say against what I posted. You tried to rush a lynch, you were decidedly anti-town, your "I said that because I'm a rolecop" thing holds absolutely no water as I've already proven above, and now you are trying to paint me as scum.

Based on what I've read so far, I do not see Panda as scum, why in the blue hell should I vote Panda "now" over someone who is my top scum read? Just to please you? Just to "get a lynch"? No.

Knightmare has 2 votes, I'll happily shift my vote there if that becomes the lynch, but, based on my current reading (ANYONE attacking me for not looking at the most recent stuff at this exact second... scummy as fuck, and looking for excuses later).

...I still have no clue how can you see Persi scum without mavs. You also know that wagon isn't gonna go anywhere. We need a claim from Panda, and we need to start moving.

If mavs is a miller as claimed, and I currently believe him, a scum rolecop will search elsewhere, knowing they can confirm mavs. Scum already know if mavs is a miller, so don't need to rolecop him. Simples.

[PranaDevil]

(ANYONE attacking me for not looking at the most recent stuff at this exact second... scummy as fuck, and looking for excuses later).

[PranaDevil]

Oh, also, read what the hell I've actually posted, and respond to that, any discussion of where my vote is at this second is not helpful to anyone.

So, go, if you're town you want to look at what I'm saying, not ignore it. So read.

[PranaDevil]

Up to the end of page 19, but I like a good wagon recap, and feel it's important, especially as it changes a few things in my reads.

Knightmare #427 Highlighting this because it's literally Knightmare quoting Persivul claiming Drew is scummy for asking people what they will do when he flips town, and calling it a scum claim... much like he's trying to do with me. Sorry, no it's not.

farside #437 points out that there had best be more than "just lynch mavs" for D2, I think this may be telling. Though I'll admit it doesn't fully fit into the Persivul-scum position so much, unless he felt he could buy town points.

Drew post #442 however nullifies that as they could hae just booted out his biggest town read (and farside has been around a long time with plenty of experience)

Una #445 Quick, distance from Persivul, hurry up, do it now. Hah.

Drew #466 "I can’t see scum putting effort into the lynch after the CC. They’d have coasted." I agree. Persivul was coasting through it fully, literally did nothing at all.

Lynch post Drew-Sta (7)Persivul;mavsfan41;Knightmare491;Riabi;farside22;GeorgeBailey;UnaBombaH;

We know farside was town, I'm pretty strong on mavs being town, at LEAST one of these is scum. HOWEVER... I do not believe all three of the scum were on this wagon, which indeed blows my Persivul/Una/Knightmare scum team out of the water. This was such an easy lynch that scum did not need to be on it. There was certainly no need to hammer, not when I had already said I was willing to, they could have sat back knowing I would hammer already... so Una is likely town as of this point forward, or really stupid scum. But I'll go with town.

However... that also ruins the earlier theory of Una knowing scum have a rolecop, which confuses me. Why was Una even mentioning rolecop that early? I'm also ruling out Persivul just deciding to use that role randomly to claim her checked Mavs, meaning Persivul is 100% a rolecop, whether it's scum or town is another matter of course.

Still, if Una is town, that leaves Persivul, Knightmare, Riabi and George... I'm saying a minimum of one of these are scum, and a maximum of two. I'm still solid on Persivul as scum, and I still feel Knightmare is too.

Of those off the wagon we have:
Luca, Tanner, Prana, Panda, Wake

Obviously Wake is town, so one of the others must be scum, and I had none of them as scum reads. Luca leans town, Tanner leans town, I'm in there and I'm not in the habit of calling myself scum, Panda therefore is the odd one out.

So... Scum team is leaning in the grouping of:
Persivul
Knightmare
Panda
Una

(ANYONE attacking me for not looking at the most recent stuff at this exact second... scummy as fuck, and looking for excuses later).

LOL - you're not allowed to just declare that your prior positions don't matter. Positions can change, but you should be able to explain the change.

Well done. However I'm about to start reading page 20. So you can sit there and wait while pretending you're doing anything of use, like you did day 1, or you can actually read what the hell I'm doing rather than pretending you are. Scum.

[PranaDevil]

Vote: Red Panda

This was bad posting, considering I'm still mid catch up, check this tomorrow lads. Because I see no town reason to hammer while I'm still posting thoughts on stuff.

[PranaDevil]

...That's L-1.

Aha! I missed Una's unvote. Carry on.

This takes us to the end of page 24.

Knightmare #479 This was weird... his post immediately before mentions farside's reaction to the miller CC was weird, but I then checked his ISO... nothing really against George there. But also not a great deal against Mavs. He was happy for the Drew flip, but put Mavs as strong town "based on Drew's flip" earlier, and when Drew flipped town, he ignored the miller stuff entirely, despite previously talking about "if there's two millers we can just not include this game on our record", so he clearly was saying there wasn't two millers, yet goes into day two happily buying it? Not a chance that's town behaviour. Knightmare is 100% slam dunk scum.

mavs 496This is good posting, and I agree with it all, though maybe not the two cops thing in hindsight.

Tanner #499 Buys the rolecop claim away too easily.

Here's a suggestion... we don't have ANY town cop, normal or otherwise, scum have a rolecop though. That is plausible.

mavs #501 Agree too, and that doesn't necessarily require Una to be scum, scum could see it, happily let that happen, and not argue against it (I doubt they would argue for it either... may be worth someone checking who responded to Una, and who ignored that entirely, that someone isn't me). Plus, any doc night 1 was focusing on Wake. Mavs was easily ignored either so scum could buddy and claim town cred in some form for (rolecop), or as an easy lynch later, and any doc wasn't going there, while farside was an easy target, unfortunately.

George #503 says exactly what I did to Knightmare.

George #505 I've had three goes at writing this, and my thought process has changed... first I wanted to say not considering the possibility of double scum wasn't scummy... buuut... scum need to be seen as town, those who bought the claim quickly are actually more inclined to be town. Scum would know that if both millers flip it will come back to bite them, AND they would know both millers are telling the truth if there are, indeed, two millers (which I currently believe)... so the scum will mainly be those that originally refused to accept it. I feel this actually clears George (and annoyingly... Una...) in my head.

Riabi #507 "I can't think of a reason that a scum!persivul would lie about mavs' claim." ... "What I don't understand though is why that claim confirms Persivul? If he is a scum role-cop, mavs seems like a pretty easy/convenient target to gain town cred." Riabi... you literally answered yourself instantly.

Tanner #508 and even up to now, is still blindly believing Persivul's rolecop claim and wilfully ignoring how easy it would be for scum to claim mavs is definitely town, have him killed in a night or two, and just use that as evidence he's telling the truth.

What I will say though... is if Persivul is NOT scum... he should be dead tonight. Because he's the scum target 100%. Especially as I'm the only one who suspects him.

Una #511 Makes the same point I've been making regarding Persivul.

Tanner #512 Makes a fair point here, Persivul does need to either get good results AND survive as if he's town, as I said above, he's target number 1 by the scum team as they need to stop him outing any of their team, but his death confirms Mavs at that point, giving us double confirmed town with the IC as well. So yes, a vote on Persivul should be elsewhere, but I still strongly believe he's scum.

Una #515 This is good. Una could easily have coasted off the rolecop claim if he were scum, and brought up stuff as wifom later, but he pushes the fact that a rolecop claim doesn't have to be town.

Panda #546 Answers me asking if scum have daytalk with believing they do. Didn't think much of it at the time... but since when is daytalk normal? for a start, thats normally a stronger thing for scum, meaning the chances are they don't have it if town do have a double miller. Also votes Una, and based on my current reading, Una has shifted more to the town side by this stage. Not anywhere atually within the town gates, but he's riding his horse there. So I'm not sure I approve of Panda shifting her vote that way.

Tanner #549 reads more like town wanting to shift away from set-up discussion, which is fair, I wish I hadn't been discussing it now.

Panda #552 Can't really tell which way Panda is lying here, this is a mess of a post, but my gut here says town.

The entire Panda/Tanner back and forth on page 23 feels town Vs town to me, which really doesn't help considering I'm certain based on vote analysis one of them or Luca has to be scum...

Tanner #569 I previously, in my #570 said I believed this, in hindsight I'm not so sure. I could be tunnelling Persivul, but he's been very anti-town up to this point in the game... like so anti-town he should be waving a flag screaming he's scum. But I don't believe mavs is scum either. He reads very town.

Una #574 Good posting by Una, and against my bad posting. Una could be scum still, and distancing brilliantly... but I'm not so sure there.

Tanner #593 "Prana, you almost seem hellbent on making Persi/mavs a viable mislynch." - This is suspect as all hell.

[PranaDevil]

Persivul #608 (Plus everything else from him on that page) Calls Wake useless... while literally being no more useful himself.

Knightmare #620 He loves his opportunistic stuff doesn't he?

popo #626 A solid entry, and it feels town leaning to me (which helps as it comes from the Luca slot I previously felt was town leaning). Also the point on Panda is well made. In fact, Una was only mentioned ONCE by Panda prior to voting for him in #546, and that was to say he brought up a good point... highly suspicious of Panda there.

mavs #640 makes good points, regarding Knightmare #630, Knightmare had to sit neutral to a wagon forming, and act like he was fine with it.

Persivul #644Okay... let's just assume, for a second, that maybe, just maybe you are town... WILL YOU DO SOMETHING?! Seriously, Persivul has posted literally NOTHING of use today... I know I've been shit for the most part, but holy cow, the only thing Persivul has done is go "I rolecopped mavs" and that's it. No scum hunting, no attempting to move town along... and if he IS a town rolecop, he should know he's dead tonight, so he would want to provide as much insight as possible, but nope, just coasting away, adding nothing to the discussion, but pretending to be town... how he isn't lead wagon is beyond me.

Also, the Panda vote in #611 amounted to "farside thought this, so I'm voting there". And that was it, nothing else. If Panda is scum, this is distancing. 100%.

Panda #645AtE for days.

Tanner #653 Let me respond to this with a clear head... you are suggesting that a two miller - 1 rolecop set up is done so we can avoid losing two millers to mislynches... so we an lose one miller to a mislynch, and a rolecop to a guaranteed night kill, and thus lose a strong power role? And you're suggesting that rolecop is best served by saving a wifom miller claim instead of trying to check scum? They could target the lurky slots and have a better hance of gaining useful information.

Losing two town, over losing two different town... is still losing two town... in fact, "balancing" it, s we lose an actual power role in the rolecop, over mislynching the miller... feels like a bigger town loss than not having any cop at all.

Panda #674 Very much feels in the past couple of posts that Panda is getting stressed at the votes on them (see: #645) We open with suggesting the rolecop is town aligned... good idea, distance from your buddy.

In fact... if Panda flips scum (I solidly believe she will be the lynch, though I'd favour Knightmare), I think this post will yeild very important information.

Persivul #676 Still not scum hunting.

Final conclusion:

Reads are:

Town:
Eve

Likely town:
Mavs
Popo
Una

Null:
George
Tanner
Riabi

Scum:
Persivul
Knightmare
Panda

Am happy to hammer Panda when I wake up tomorrow. (To give Una the chance to do their catch up tonight).

Also, looking at it now, persivul is the last to die out of those as he has to be a scum kill if he's town, because they cannot risk him surviving and outing some of them.

I'd favour Knightmare first, (and am about to park my vote there because if it does gain steam, I'm still happy, and I don't wish to hammer Panda prematurely) but am comfortable with the Panda wagon.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Knightmare

[PranaDevil]

persivul is the last to die out of those as he has to be a scum kill if he's town, because they cannot risk him surviving and outing some of them

You keep saying this. How do you know that scum have roles that are obviously scummy? And why do scum want to 100% conftown mavs, which happens when I flip?

That's fair, I don't know they will have an obviously scummy role, I was thinking you would also get "mafia goon" as a response or similar. But that would be more normal cop territory.

As for the second bit... you being scum rolecop =/= 100% conftown mavs, mavs can be town miller still with you being a rolecop.

I do approve of you actually doing some talking though, more of this.

Part of me thinks you're bad town rather than scum, but the way you're setting me up for a lynch tomorrow doesn't feel like bad town.

Tomorrow? Oh no, that will be Knightmare almost for certain. You are either killed by scum or lynched when it's obvious you are scum in two day phases. But you are scum, your lack of any worthwhile scum hunting at any stage of this game is enough evidence of that.

[PranaDevil]

I meant, mavs could be scum with Persivul being scum.

But you, as scum, would want to latch onto mavs, and ride into the sunset so if he WAS the lynch today... you could buy town cred, and if he wasn't, but he dies later... you have town cred.

However, regardless of all of that, Persivul's posting has just been super bad, like all game, barely any actual scum hunting, doing the same thing people called out me for, but 10x worse, but because he claimed rolecop he's "town"... I don't buy it, at all.

your lack of any worthwhile scum hunting

This from the person who waited until the end of D2 to even read D1?

At least I started... what's your excuse?

[PranaDevil]

A list of names =/= scum hunting.

[PranaDevil]

19 hours.
Gonna need some quick moves from Panda if they have anything to say.

Final reads etc.
If they claim a PR this late they can just blame themselves for that IMO.
We do not want to risk a no lynch.

Agreed. Myself, you and Knightmare have all said we'll hammer if need be. I get up, at the latest, in 14 hours from now. So I can confirm that I can hammer then if it's needed.

Panda, a claim would be useful right now.

[PranaDevil]

Right... so...

Panda was an encryptor, I have no clue what that means, does that mean we have a neighborizer on our hands, or another role that allows people to speak? Because without something to let Panda talk to someone, the role was utterly pointless...

It also does not strike me inherently as an anti-town role. It wasn't there so the scum could talk, as Panda had to be in whatever chat it was.

This should also make everyone realise the rolecop is not required to be town. Anyone believing it just "because we have two millers" needs to step back and take a rethink.

Knightmare and Persivul are both still super scummy, and I want a Persivul lynch ideally, but am also willing to hold off for a cop to check him if we have one, and to see if he dies at night if we don't.

VOTE: Knightmare491

[PranaDevil]

VOTE: Prana

Town encryptor, but not neighbor or neighborizer, is really weird.

Full disclosure: I was 1X. I withheld that yesterday to see if scum would target me N2. Prana's setup attempt largely negated that. Still, scum probably don't have something obvious like strongman.

^ This is backpedalling to avoid having to give future results and an "excuse" as to why Persivul will survive future nights. "Why would the scum target a one shot?"

Panda was an encryptor, I have no clue what that means, does that mean we have a neighborizer on our hands, or another role that allows people to speak? Because without something to let Panda talk to someone, the role was utterly pointless...

Not necessarily true..?
Also, can't you see the potential "theme" taking shape in the game?
Immediately when I saw that Panda-flip I got a vibe like "townies you'd sort of want dead, but are still town"..
Miller, and potentially even double-Miller, and now an encryptor to potentially provide a false-guilty to the rolecop.

So... 3 anti-town roles, and a 1x shot town rolecop which would weaken town...?

If town is THAT weak, we had best have some super powered town roles to make up for it... where are they? Why is a 1x shot rolecop even a thing that works in a set up where we have 3 anti-town roles? That does not add up for a normal game to me.

It also does not strike me inherently as an anti-town role. It wasn't there so the scum could talk, as Panda had to be in whatever chat it was.

Like said, a "false guilty" for the assumed Rolecop. That flip makes me think that we really NEED to have a real cop somewhere too, or we are hopelessly outmatched by all this WIFOM-negative utility..

A 1x shot rolecop still leaves us hopelessly outmatched useless garbage.

This should also make everyone realise the rolecop is not required to be town. Anyone believing it just "because we have two millers" needs to step back and take a rethink.

Interestingly I have it totally backwards.
I was absolutely paranoid and leaning towards it being a scum-gambit yesterday, but now believe it to be more likely true with that flip.
Or can you give a meaning for Pandas role outside of providing a "false guilty"?

You somewhat make sense here... but again, Why a 1x shot? It does nothing for town as a 1x shot... so I don't buy it.

Persivul has done literally nothing all game, like... he's been active as fuck, all the way through, but not done any scum hunting, and if he was a legitimate 1x shot, then yesterday he should have been hammering home shit out of the park, get the scum to night kill him, over potentially hitting another power role... instead he twiddled his thumbs all game.

Now we "know" he's no longer a rolecop, and he can just wifom the fact he wasn't killed because the scum have better targets to find, he's at best a VT, and most likely, scum that is harmful to us. I'm happy to shift my vote to the most likely scum player here.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Persivul

[PranaDevil]

@Persivul: who did you target last night and what did you find out?

He targeted nobody, because he "targeted" you N1.

@Prana: your theory of Persivul makes sense. The only thing I wonder is why would Persivul claim he’s 1x unprovoked? Seems like something that would IMMEDIATELY have people (like you yelling “bs!” and rightfully so). The only thing I could possibly see Perisvul claiming outright he’s a 1x now with a doctor presumably on him is that he wants the doctor targeting someone else trying to tell scum to target elsewhere cause they can’t kill him. With the IC’s death, I figure if there was a doctor, that Persivul was targeted by the doctor as that’s ONLY place a doctor would go other than Eve. That claim of a 1x from Persivul seems strange for him to outright claim with no pressure which in turn would open him up to people being suspicious of him with no real reward for scum!Persivul. It is also getting convenient for Perisvul.

If he wanted to prevent a doctor targeting him, YESTERDAY was the day to point that out, because last night would be when a doc would target him if they believed his claim, and thus we lose the IC. If he's town, scum could leave him alive knowing there's suspicion on him, which also means you aren't fully trusted. So IF he was town... not announcing it yesterday was very anti-town.

He would claim 1x unprovoked because it is immediately "convenient" that he doesn't have to explain any results. He can now try the whole "I announced it early" card, and he can also give a very clear reason as to why he's not lynched tonight.

There is literally no town reason to claim 1x there. A 1x town rolecop there stays quiet and lets the scum try to take him out later.

[PranaDevil]

So... looking away from Persivul for the meantime, there's more than just him as scum, I still believe we have three, as that's most logical with this number of players.

Which means we need to consider his partners.

A quick wagon check so far:

Drew-Sta

(7)Persivul;mavsfan41;Knightmare491;Riabi;

farside22

;GeorgeBailey;UnaBombaH;

Not on the lynching wagon - popopopopopopo, Tanner, PranaDevil,

Red Panda

,

Eve

,

Drew-Sta

Red Panda

(6)Tanner;Persivul;popopopopopopo;

Eve

;mavsfan41;Knightmare491

Not on the lynching wagon - GeorgeBailey, PranaDevil, Riabi, UnaBombaH,

Red Panda

I'm positive scum have to be on both wagons.

Interstingly, Persivul, mavs and Knightmare were on both wagons. I do not believe all three scum were on both wagons in the slightest, so at least one of those must be town. However, I also believe at least one of them is scum too (and we already know my feelings on Persivul and Knightmare)

I also believe scum would avoid a wagon too (yes, I know that sticks me in that position too).

So... on day 1, we can confirm only three people who are uncertain were not on the lynch: Myself, popo and Tanner. One of this trio is 100% scum. Because the alternative is all three scum were on the Drew wagon... which was the easiest lynch in the history of lynches. Even people who believed him (farside for instance) were on Drew's wagon, there was no reason for scum to jump on at all, especially as multiple people were willing to hammer (myself included) So I believe the scum had to be on that early... Maybe before someone counterclaimed... Oh look Persivul is the only one there. Scum did not need to be on that wagon after that point, so at most one scum is on after mavs (or mavs is the second scum... but I'm not sure of that right now).

On the day two wagon... well that was a harder sell than Drew, obviously. I'll also point out that Una unvoted right near the deadline to "re-read" which wasn't a great time to do that (but then... neither was my catch up a good timed thing either... but with 1 week days, it was never going to be well timed), so the chance of two scum being on there is very likely. I'm would think one at the start, and one at the end... but that means Tanner and popo cannot be scum if Persivul is scum. And the chance of all three scum being on Panda is slim... as a no lynch doesn't harm scum too much.

The day two wagon needs a closer look. If nobody voted Panda between Tanner and Persivul, they are not scum together. If people voted and removed their votes in between, they could be.

Obviously this isn't the only information needed, but I am better at wagon reading than people reading.

So... current status, Persivul needs to flip.

One of the Prana, Tanner, Popo group is 100% scum. I believe while scum didn't "need" to be on the Drew wagon, it's logical two would be, because it was easy to claim Drew seemed scummy and the counter claim sealed it.

Other scum I believe to still be Knightmare from previous reasoning.

[PranaDevil]

@Prana: with him being 1x role cop, yea, it absolutely makes sense for him to claim yesterday if he were town. Also I get the suspicion surrounding an easy claim but why not claim he “targeted” one of his scum buddies and say they’re VT? A little less suspicious than straight up claiming 1x role cop. I get that his lynch or his scum buddy’s lynch would out both, but that seems like a better move to make.

You answered it yourself. He's not cleared. If he were to "clear" a scum buddy there is suspicion on them. He could have done it with an actual town player too, but it risks hitting a PR, so not worth it.

[PranaDevil]

I think everyone should ISO the three not on the D1 wagon (me, popo/Luca, and Tanner), and push there, even if we lynch Persivul today, because looking at those slots is important.

[PranaDevil]

How much difference do you make between "being on wagon of a counterclaimed Miller" and "being off wagon of a counterclaimed Miller while still constantly pushing for his lynch"?

In that case... it depends entirely on situation, I'd say checking ISO's is important.

If it was near the end of the wagon and they didn't want to quick hammer, that's an important thing, as more discussion is important. If it was early on they had been talking about how scummy Drew was but never voted at all... then that's scummy.

[PranaDevil]

Fakeclaiming Rolecop makes no sense for scum

lol, just because you say that, doesn't make it true. I've explained exactly why it makes more sense for scum than town

Also I don't think you fakeclaimed. I think you ARE a rolecop. The scum rolecop.

[PranaDevil]

No.

Claiming means if mavs is town, you bought his trust.

You've not confirmed mavs unless you flip town, and if he IS a miller, and he flipped, then you could claim town points.

Why did you not claim 1 shot yesterday when it would have been beneficial?
Why did you not scum hunt at all thus far?
Why are you not pushing people for answers, and instead just coasting by every single day by posting literally nothing?
What are your thoughts in the three people who weren't on Drew's wagon? Do you believe scum would all be on Drew's wagon? How many do you think are on there?
What about those who are being quiet? Have you any views on those slots?
What about Tanner? He's had very little in the way of sideways glances, let alone anything else, do you have a read on him?

[PranaDevil]

and if he IS a miller, and he flipped, then you could claim town points.

Not at all. I saw no reason to doubt him. Scum gain nothing by faking a CC there, as millers tend to get lynched anyway. Indeed, there were people on D1 saying that even if Drew flips miller, mavs would need to die D2. I prevented that.

False, when you claimed, people were voting, but not at mavs, there was zero danger at him being lynched "just because". You prevented nothing, and you know it.

Why did you not claim 1 shot yesterday when it would have been beneficial?

Why aren't you reading? I already explained that. Misrepping me like this shows that you have an agenda. You're not trying to sort me.

I read what you said, it makes no sense from town.

Why did you not scum hunt at all thus far?

Another misrep, repeated many times. Again, just because I don't post walls like you doesn't mean I don't scum hunt. Plus, again, you didn't do jack until you saw how D1 went, then you started the wall posts on D2.

Why are you not pushing people for answers, and instead just coasting by every single day by posting literally nothing?

Please explain this from 728: "Based on what I've read so far, I do not see Panda as scum"
I asked you about it in 730.
You dodged an answer in 732.
I pushed for an answer in 735.
You dodged again in 736.

So, please:
- answer the original question.
- explain why you charge me with not pushing people for answers, when I clearly have.

I was looking at all posts, and was doing a catch up. A couple of bad posts at that time were not scummy enough to warrant a scum read.

I push you for not asking for answers because pretty much every post in your ISO is fluff. And like a couple of bad posts isn't by itself scummy, one or two good ones doesn't make you town.

What are your thoughts in the three people who weren't on Drew's wagon? Do you believe scum would all be on Drew's wagon? How many do you think are on there?

You and Luca scum, Tanner town. This is also clear from my posting. Why do you pretend like I don't have positions on these people?
Regarding numbers, scum like to be OFF wagons when possible, and with the miller CC, it was pretty easy for them to stay off.

What about those who are being quiet? Have you any views on those slots?
What about Tanner? He's had very little in the way of sideways glances, let alone anything else, do you have a read on him?

Did you miss my reads list BOTH times that I posted it?

That's a great way to continue not scum hunting. Until someone flips green, or are confirmed in some way, everyone is potential scum. "I've said this before and I refuse to continue looking" is not town.

Prana progression on Panda:

397 - Suggesting Drew has "flail[ed] like a fish" is really bad.
721 - Panda #372 Is bad, I comment on it in #397 below, it still stands....Prana #397 I still stand by. Red Panda's #372 is really bad there....

So, Panda is really bad, bad, and really bad, but then:
728 - Based on what I've read so far, I do not see Panda as scum, why in the blue hell should I vote Panda "now" over someone who is my top scum read?

But just 4 posts and 29 minutes later:
736 - So... Scum team is leaning in the grouping of:
Persivul
Knightmare
Panda
Una

So:
- Prana's posts on Panda are all negative - "really bad."
- But, when I note that he's starting a vanity wagon near end of phase, he now says he doesn't see Panda as scum.
- But, 29 minutes later, he DOES see Panda as scum...but doesn't vote there.

This is classic positioning by scum to try to fit in with the group, but not be on the lynch in the VCs.

This entire post is misrepresentation at its finest.

Do you not understand how catching up works? Actually... we know you do. We all know you are blatantly painting the story you want to tell.

But you, as scum, would want to latch onto mavs, and ride into the sunset so if he WAS the lynch today... you could buy town cred, and if he wasn't, but he dies later... you have town cred.

You think I get town cred from a mavs flip.

No, I think you wanted town cred. And you claim I misrepresent you...

[PranaDevil]

He made the same kind of catch-up post in his last scum game as well:
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... 8#p8759318

Well done... that is literally meaningless. Or is "guy that was busy and fell behind on the game" a scum tell now?

This shows that you don't even remember your own positions, which is more likely to come from scum than from town. It also shows that your agenda is to lynch me, not to sort me. If you were really trying to sort me, you would have accepted this and opened discussion, rather than making a knee-jerk denial.

It's also telling that you didn't respond to 814. Surely you read two more posts and saw it. Again, if you were trying to sort me, you might have said something like

I forgot about that, you're right, you did act to prevent a mislynch

. Instead you ignore it because it doesn't fit your narrative.

No, it shows that you are trying to claim something that never happened.

mavs was NOT going to be lynched day 2, everyone else was looking a mavs for day 2 (and yes, he's still not cleared, but then... nobody is at this stage). You came in and went "mavs is a miller, I say he is, oh look I'm very town by this, oh look at me", when a town way to play there is to stay quiet unless you are one shot... but then you would want to draw the fire from scum, so you would be deep into scum hunting... in fact... your rolecop claim and your actions DO NOT line up.

You did not claim you were 1 shot yesterday because you claim you didn't want the scum to look elsewhere... which would be a good point, except you announced today that you are 1 shot, at a time there are ZERO confirmed town left, meaning tonight you would be the guaranteed kill from scum if you were actually a rolecop.

Oh, but you said you were 1 shot so as to stop the doc wasting their protect on you... which was convenient as we've lost the one confirmed town we actually had. So you let any potential doc waste their protect on you (assuming they believed you) over the ONLY confirmed town player we had... and only once that confirmed town is dead do you go "actually... doc, don't protect me".

That play, that act of doing that shite, is scum benefitting only. Not one part of what you have done can be seen to benefit town.

"mavs is a miller" great... we have YOUR word for that only, nobody else's, and if mavs is indeed a miller... well scum know that as fact too, because town don't need to lie about their role like that, and definitely wouldn't to get Drew lynched. So the only thing gained from it is "maybe he is, maybe he isn't". Now... if you flip green we may get info about mavs, but that's the one and only time we would. And that is a huge if, because nothing you have done thus far is town. Nothing. You have repeatedly lied.

Yes, it makes perfect sense from town. I'm now effectively a VT. If scum had an obvious scum role and thought I had more shots, they might have killed me, which:
- creates another conftown in mavs
- gives another night to town PRs

It would have made zero town sense for me to claim 1X yesterday.

BTW, why would it be difficult for a scum rolecop to have to provide results? How would that catch me up?

As I said above, you allowed the IC to be killed last night by having any potential doc protect you, now there's no other PR role, you can comfortably argue you haven't been killed because they're PR hunting. You are scummy as all hell.

A scum would struggle to provide results because you need to provide results, and you don't want to be announcing where you will shoot each night. So if you target Player A and it turns out they are a cop... well you need to announce someone different so a doc doesn't protect them tonight, because scum want the cop dead. Thus you'd have to lie. You cannot pick town to lie about, you might be wrong. So you need to pick scum and call them Vanilla.

Also, scum wouldn't have checked mavs N1, they'd have checked elsewhere and hoped to hit a PR, while just claiming they checked mavs N1, to try and buddy him. If mavs is scum, you've created a plausible lie as long as he survives, because even if you die, mavs could claim you already knew his role.

Also, a 1 shot rolecop to "confirm" one of the millers.... is not a logical thing either, if it is somehow correct, all you do is trade 1 for 1. That does not lean towards town, it makes the rolecop inherently anti-town at this stage.

Right... so...

Panda was an encryptor, I have no clue what that means, does that mean we have a neighborizer on our hands, or another role that allows people to speak? Because without something to let Panda talk to someone, the role was utterly pointless...

It also does not strike me inherently as an anti-town role. It wasn't there so the scum could talk, as Panda had to be in whatever chat it was.

This should also make everyone realise the rolecop is not required to be town. Anyone believing it just "because we have two millers" needs to step back and take a rethink.

Knightmare and Persivul are both still super scummy, and I want a Persivul lynch ideally, but am also willing to hold off for a cop to check him if we have one, and to see if he dies at night if we don't.

VOTE: Knightmare491

VOTE: Prana

Town encryptor, but not neighbor or neighborizer, is really weird.

Full disclosure: I was 1X. I withheld that yesterday to see if scum would target me N2. Prana's setup attempt largely negated that. Still, scum probably don't have something obvious like strongman.

1. If I'm scum, I'm happy that you're not pushing me. I don't poke you. Yet in the next post, I vote you. That's not a scum move.

2. Why were you willing to wait for a cop to check me?

You're happy I'm not pushing you? Did you just look at that post and go "oh, he's voting Knightmare, that helps my case" while ignoring the words used where I clearly say I want you lynched over Knightmare?

As for 2... I want you lynched, I'll accept a cop checking you overnight over trying to force a lynch when people were clearly happier with a Panda one and we were late in the day.

Anyway, this is the last of this garbage back and forth, because this shit is how scum hide themselves, get into a back and forth and make town hate reading it, so they brush it all off. So this is my last direct response about this to you Persivul. Apologies to town for the wall o'text.

[PranaDevil]

being 100% sure there's scum in Tanner/popo yet never expressing willingness to vote either today.

At this moment in time, I'm close to 100% certain Persivul is scum. That is who I want lynched today. I've given plenty of reasons, please read them.

You or Popo I'm happy to lynch, but I need to read over both of your ISOs for it. I like your post about Popo, but want to read for myself later when I get a chance.

[PranaDevil]

Persi, here are some blunt statements, stop talking bollocks:

1 - I did it ONCE in the past. It's not a scum tell, it's a "hey, he's busy and had to catch up" tell. Seriously. You are blatantly trying to twist it, and it's obvious.

2 - If you believe ME, BY MYSELF would be getting a lynch on mavs, when people started day 2 and went fucking ELSEWHERE you are an idiot. I do not believe you to be an idiot, therefore you are misrepresenting the facts for day 2. mavs was not at risk of being lynched, and you know it.

3 - You were the ONLY announced PR role, and could expose scum. (I'm saying it as if he were town, of course) Scum would want you dead. Yes, you were a night kill target. Night 2, the scum could kill the IC and you could argue a doc might protect you, day 3 and suddenly, when we would actively want scum to target you (to get conf!town on mavs, and remove any uncertainty) you give a very easy way for them to not target you, you have literally told scum to shoot elsewhere.

4 - As for the doctor thing, fair enough mavs mentioned it... but it doesn't stop everything else on why your announcement day 2 and 3 have been 100% scummy.

5 - except mavs was not the next day lynch, as is evidences by anyone reading the start of the day effing 2. No, you get ZERO credit for mavs not being lynched, ZERO. Unless somehow you both think I'm the only person that can push a lynch and unless I agree with it, it doesn't go ahead... which would be stupid. So anyone thinking mavs was the lynch is reading the wrong game. Read day 2 start, now.

6 - No retracting. You have lied. Scum do that, they lie.

7 - WIFOM in the form of "mavs would be the better kill", that depends. Eve joined, and is a slot you know everyone would listen to as they are confirmed town, so yes, the scum would target Eve over mavs. It's possible you are trying to link him as your buddy though by giving nods towards "why didn't he die?" So when you flip red, I'm thinking mavs gets more town points there.

8 - No clue if you and mavs are both scum. I'm certain you are.

9 - How exactly is the rolecop town for announcing the scum can shoot elsewhere from now on and give an excuse for not being NK'd?

Better question... Why did you announce you're a one shot today? I want a post with NOTHING else in it but this answer.

10 - Walls are never fine, but sometimes a necessary. Also if you are seriously telling me you don't understand the difference between "wall of actual information" and "many many walls of back and forth that doesn't move anything forward because neither of us talking at each other benefits the town" I'm very sorry for you... but yu do know the difference, that's why you want to gaslight others by making them believe they're the same. THIS IN ITSELF IS SCUMMY BEHAVIOR

11 - "Of course I'm happy. I live today and kill you tonight, now that the IC is gone." - Persivul #830 ladies and gentlemen.

From now on, refrain from just doing a back and forth please. Most of the above can be gained from actually reading what's going on, but more importantly... I wont change your view of you, and you won't change my view of me. So this does not gain town ANYTHING.

[PranaDevil]

Prana Devil: Mavs, you're not being lynched ONLY because Persivul cleared you!

There was zero chance Drew was surviving day 1 after you CC'd him.

The only reason you aren't being lynched right now is because Persivul Rolecopped you

, meaning either you are both town, or you played a blinder of a shot, and it's worked... of course, it needs to continue working for that to pay off in that case. So the above, is understandable, because even if someone believes there's a chance of double miller, keeping them both alive day 1 is also completely stupid.

Also Prana Devil: Mavs was NEVER gonna be lynched!

mavs was NOT going to be lynched day 2, everyone else was looking a mavs for day 2 (and yes, he's still not cleared, but then... nobody is at this stage). You came in and went "mavs is a miller, I say he is, oh look I'm very town by this, oh look at me", when a town way to play there is to stay quiet unless you are one shot... but then you would want to draw the fire from scum, so you would be deep into scum hunting... in fact... your rolecop claim and your actions DO NOT line up.

I call BS on this!

Unless you think I'm the only person who matters in a lynch... then you cannot call BS on it.

I, personally, may have still been up for pushing you. But I am not the entirety of town, and it was very, very clear that people were pushing elsewhere right out of the gates. To assume you were the automatic lynch, ESPECIALLY when Persivul revealed his role... is wrong.

Town Persivul would have kept quiet and help off at least until later in the day to say it.

[PranaDevil]

I'm ignoring everything Persivul is directing at me as of now, because it does not benefit town.

Knightmare, is scum still.

Tanner and popo have 100% scum between them.

Knightmare needs to post an actual case, and if all he does is parrot fucking Persivul or some shite, maybe he should be today's lynch.

[PranaDevil]

... Please tell me I'm not the only one who sees how bad this above post is.

You were scumreading Prana. You were Townreading Persivul. Where is the progression on either of those? What has made you suspect Persivul, other than him withholding he's 1shot? What do you think about my post saying that's a towny thing to do? What do you think about Prana's non-setup specc posts? What do you think about my post "casing" you? What do you think about

literally anything else

in the game?

Oh no, it was a garbage post for certain, I'm trying to keep in my mind that, from my eyes, scum is between you or popo, and so don't immediately wish to side with you against popo.

It's entirely possible you've targeted popo because I'm the one who's spotted the scum must be between us three and it clearly makes sense, so hope to build a case there. Simultaneously, popo could be trying to buddy me with their post to make me side with them by saying they suddenly find me town. My ISO of you both will shed some light on it, and I will do both of them tomorrow, because today is going to be busy as all fuck. (See below if you give a toss as to why)

agree that farside nk means something, disagree that it's as simple as her scumreads

based on experience and also being a high IQ genius, kills like that come more often from someone familiar with the player that sees them as a threat as town, so familiarity would be more indicative than current reads -- scum can just as easily be in that players nullreads and are just taking precautions in case the reads shift later

I'd be very careful of this. I felt it was very obvious going into this game that farside and Persivul were friendly. Much as I believe Persivul is scum, for this specific thing, scum could easily look at that, and try and set up Persivul with it further down the line.

Which, if he IS town... would mean they would want to not push him as a lynch after he declared he was a rolecop, because they wouldn't want to be seen to be riding that wave when the time came.

panadevil is also on the list of people liable to know / fear farside given a 2010 join date

interesting that him and pers are crossvoting atm

Is it?

I remember very few people from this site back then. I basically stopped playing in 2012/2013, popped up in 2017 (where I replaced out of most games I joined), and am here now.

As for me and Persivul... if you're trying to set up some form of push towards us being scum together (and that's the vibe I'm getting) I'm going to say that's rather scummy in itself.

In fact... since you joined you said george was scum, but gave no reason for your read. You obviously pushed the fact scum might have killed farside due to knowing how good she is (and highlighted Persivul with it... meaning you are either bussing him, or view him as an easy mislynch due to me pushing him super hard, and others being suspicious of him), and... not much else. A lot of posts, with nothing really said. I'm suspicious of that.

(As an aside, every Wednesday night is board game night, I usually help run a group, but with the quarantine we do it via Tabletop Simulator... and it's stressful as hell to manage, so afterwards I will just rest overnight most likely. Expect only posts related to current ongoing stuff to be posted between now and tomorrow).

[PranaDevil]

If that VCA was faulty... why not try and fix it?

[PranaDevil]

849 Prana says 100% scum is either Tanner/Popo but hasn’t really voted. This is more fence sitting where Prana possibly doesn’t want to bus Popopo but faced with the alternative of voting Tanner doesn’t seem appealing. Prana has actually been super wishy-washy with Popopo. Prana mentions scum Popopo in a group but whenever he directly mentions Popopo the posts feel like walking on eggshells.

Seriously? You're going to try and paint me as scummy for that bullshit? If you were truly trying to check me, you would also have seen all of the following:

You or Popo I'm happy to lynch, but I need to read over both of your ISOs for it. I like your post about Popo, but want to read for myself later when I get a chance.

This was Tuesday 1:50pm for me. (I replied since to Persivul's wall and then refused to continue doing so to not be anti-town)

(As an aside, every Wednesday night is board game night, I usually help run a group, but with the quarantine we do it via Tabletop Simulator... and it's stressful as hell to manage, so afterwards I will just rest overnight most likely. Expect only posts related to current ongoing stuff to be posted between now and tomorrow).

This was Wednesday 11:18am, pointing out that I would be busy as hell all of yesterday, and actually, I've been busy today.

Next time you wish to lie about someone not voting one of two people, maybe don't do it with someone who has actually posted reasons in thread.

Anyone wanting to vote there based on nothing more than gut, prior to doing an ISO of both players, is scummy. Wanting to actually read both first is NOT scummy.

[PranaDevil]

I read popo's ISO... Persi is 100% scum. There's absolutely no chance in hell that popo randomly made up that claim at the last minute. At all. All through today popo said Persi was today's lynch, and Persi was lying.

So yes, Persi is today's lynch.

Knightmare dived on that bus so fast that he must have thought it was the last one out of the station.

Tanner is either scum with Persi, as he's been solidly backing Persi from the start, or has been very much misguided. Either way, Tanner needs to properly reasses his reads, because currently they're buggered.

[PranaDevil]

Can you give us some more on that last slot?

No.

What do you think about my point against Knightmare? That Knightmare can apparently see me/Persi as either T/S or S/T but not T/T?

He knows Persi is scum, therefore he had no reason to say it could be T/T, and is trying to buy town points when Persi flips scum. It has failed.

As for the Tanner case if Persivul flips scum, 976 is quintessential scum buddy bargaining an alternative lynch to protect his buddy. As I’ve explained, this makes no sense coming from neutral town to lynch a potential tracker vs a 1x PR. And since Tanner has been pushing a Knightmare lynch all game, I would easily vote Tanner over Knightmare on a Persivul scum flip.

This is a fair point, and something to consider once Persivul has flipped scum and we take a look at the night kill.

But Knightmare quickly unvoted when it got to L-1. If it was a bus he'd probably just silently stay on the wagon.

There also read like there was a chance the wagon would flip to popo due to the push from Persi and Tanner.

@Tanner, we know that one of Persivul and popo is scum, why do you want to lynch a tracker over an essentially VT?

You lynch me today and I flip green.

HOPEFULLY when you see my 1X you'll all realize that popo's claim is mechanically impossible and lynch him.

You somehow flip green now, we insta-lynch popo tomorrow. This bit is not even up for debate.

even if Persivul is scum and we lynched him today, popo is gonna get shot tonight. There's most likely no protectives since our IC died.

You could pretty much say the same in reverse. You dont think this confirms Persivul if Popo is scum?

Also, why do you trust a 1-shot claim over a PR claim?

I do think it confirms Persivul but Persivul is 1-shot ANYWAY so he wouldn't be able to get more results NO MATTER IF HE GETS SHOT OR NOT

Because popo is scummy as fuck and his claim is scummy as fuck? You know scum can fakeclaim? Why in the ever loving hell should I believe him? Becuasse he claimed ungated Tracker? Use your brain. Please the only thing I'm begging this Town please start using your brains. How is popo claiming an Ungated Tracker in any way shape or form more clearing or credible over Persi claiming 1-shot?

It isn't... BY ITSELF

Persivul is already scummy.

popo didn't just claim it when they were about to be lynched, their ISO proves as such.

To suggest popo is fakeclaiming, is to suggest they planned to fakeclaim tracker ahead of time, and breadcrumbed all day.

Persivul is caught scum.

Food for thought: assume popopopo is scum fakeclaiming - how did they know georgebailey didn't go anywhere N1?

Hold it - scum tracker is a thing too, so no, the George association isn't a hard scum point. But George is scum nonetheless.

Thinking this through:

1. If popo flips scum tracker, we can't make conclusions from that on George's alignment

2.

If popo flips scum but not tracker, than George is almost certainly scum

, as popo could have just claimed a result on a dead person for N1.

Is that correct?

There's no scum tracker. I appreciate your desperation to survive though.

Regarding mass claiming... LET'S NOT FUCKING DO THAT.

There's two things that happen.

1 - We announce all the PRs and scum get an easy kill as we approach the endgame (and if we DO lynch wrong today, because no matter how certain I am, I will always have doubt short of someone actively announcing they are scum).
2 - As someone said earlier, all PRs announce they are VT, and... we GET NO INFO ANYWAY.

Waste of bastarding time.

[PranaDevil]

Here's what we are doing today:

We are lynching Persivul, fuck me sideways, he's the obvious lynch. Popo has been saying he investigated Persivul ALL FUCKING DAY PHASE!

Tomorrow we will look at Persivul's scum buddies, one of them is Knightmare. We'll take a look at the vote counts too.

On the very, very, very minor off chance that popo lied (and I've somehow been wrong about the fact Persivul is the scummiest MF'er I've ever played with), then we insta-lynch Popo tomorrow, without fail.

What we are NOT doing is mass fucking claiming for literally no benefit to any fucker, especially not when the person pushing for it is obv! scum Knightmare.

Now, everyone on the Persivul wagon, lets lynch up the scum master general, and get this game back on track, because Jesus H Christ it's been a shit show so far

[PranaDevil]

THERE IS NO SCUM TRACKER

[PranaDevil]

To suggest popo is fakeclaiming, is to suggest they planned to fakeclaim tracker ahead of time, and breadcrumbed all day.

To suggest Persi is fakeclaiming, is to suggest mavs decided to counterclaim a Miller and then have his buddy claim Rolecop in order to save his ass tomorrow.

This work? We voting popo now? No? Oh.

No it isn't, I've been over this many, many, many times, but let me break it down nice and simple.

Scum!Persivul ALREADY knows if mavs is scum or town.

If mavs is town, Persivul fakeclaimed rolecop to buy credibility from mavs, knowing that later on, if people voted mavs it "confirms" Persivul, or if Persivul is lynched, people are suspicious of mavs.

Yes, your idea IS plausible... but it's also less likely.

In addition, Persivul DID NOT CLAIM 1X ON DAY TWO

He let any possible protective role target him while they ignored the IC to get the kill on the IC, and only claimed 1X on day 3 to both stop him giving results, and stop it looking weird that he wasn't killed as a PR.

NOTHING about Persivul's play is town, LITERALLY NOTHING.

Oh... and let me remind you all again...

POPO BREADCRUMBED PERSIVUL BEING TRACKED ALL DAY PHASE

Now... let us lynch the known scum, please and thanks?

[PranaDevil]

Scum!Persivul ALREADY knows if mavs is scum or town.

If mavs is town, Persivul fakeclaimed rolecop to buy credibility from mavs, knowing that later on, if people voted mavs it "confirms" Persivul, or if Persivul is lynched, people are suspicious of mavs.

do you understand what i'm trying to tell you about what Persivul being scum and mavs being town implies?

it implies both:
(1) that Persi decided to enter this claiming mess in order to play a "deepwolf" (even though it was obviusly gonna cause him problems down the line, as it is now) and save mavs from a mislynch, when multiple please have expressed they wanted to to lynch mavs if Drew flipped green.
(2) that the setup has two Millers with no way to confirm either who are then both a free mislynch as they counterclaim each other.

Do you see how both (1) and (2) are so unlikely?

Nothing about this game is normal thus far.

A 1x rolecop also doesn't fix the balance... actually worse if anything.

two millers claim, the first one is lynched, rolecop checks the second one, confirms it... town believe it, but at the expense of the rolecop who is NK'd by scum, then there's another miller and an IC to be NK'd too...

If anything, two millers waste a rolecop use, and it confirms it ONLY to him.

a 1x rolecop in this game would be a NEGATIVE to town, not a positive... and we already had multiple negatives.

Now, I'm not considering a popo lynch, Persivul is very much the lynch today, no matter what.

[PranaDevil]

a 1x rolecop who confirms a Miller as town is a fucking negative. well now i've literally heard everything.

You only read the first bit didn't you.

How the fuck is a 1x rolecop BENEFICIAL to town there? It does not confirm the miller to anyone EXCEPT itself. So all it does it trade itself for the miller at absolute best. That's it.

Also, Popo makes no sense as scum, or are you claiming Popo planned to claim Tracker all day?

[PranaDevil]

vote:persivul

persivul lied yesterday and i believe he is still not being truthful with us.

i agree with prana that persi is extremely sus. my scumread on prana from yesterday i think was more of a playstlye thing, as the setup spec has continued.

These THREE posts aren't just "Persivul lied"

popo voted Persivul first, called him a liar second, and THEN BACKED ME UP.

It's quite clear popo tracked Persivul based on my comments yesterday.

Fuck me this town.

[PranaDevil]

I love how you skipped over this part. Oh well.

"How is a Cop beneficial to Town? It only proves the role to itself, not to the whole Town. How are Masons beneficial to Town? Only themselves know the other is Town, not the whole Town." Are you hearing yourself right now?

What does him backing you up have to do with anything? My point is that, sure, he's been voting Persi the whole day today but that really doesn't magically make his claim truthful. I've seen good scum start planning their fakeclaim from their first post. It doesn't prove anything.

That bit doesn't matter. In THIS SPECIFIC SITUATION the rolecop isn't beneficial to town.

I notice you've constantly tried going "lol, Prana's an idiot"... which, fuck everyone doing that.

What none of you have done is told me how saving the miller IS FUCKING BENEFICIAL AT THE EXPENSE OF THE ROLECOP.

Like... serious-fucking-ly.

How is "miller 1 dies, miller 2 dies" WORSE for the town than "Miller one dies, a town PR dies, miller is NK'd due to being obv town".

It's a 1 shot... town would have been STRONGER to have 1 miller and two vanillas in those roles.

Thus... you are all attempting to get me, and others, to believe that THREE NEGATIVE UTILITIES ARE A BONUS

Fuck that noise.

[PranaDevil]

It's a 1-shot rolecop. Not every town PR has to be as strong as a Cop. a 1-shot Town Rolecop would exist here to confirm the Miller and nothing else. Literally nothing else. That's not negative. That's a positive because it turns what was gonna be a mislynch into something scum has to kill. I'm not claiming it's good setup design. but arguing that turning a Miller from a mislynch into a scumkill is a "negative" is insane.

Yes, town would obviously be stronger to have 1 miller and no rolecop. That means there's PRs elsewhere. There hasn't been a massclaim. You don't know the full power of the Town.

So... there has to be power roles elsewhere, and YOU WANT TO LYNCH THE CLAIMED TRACKER?

That bit doesn't matter. In THIS SPECIFIC SITUATION the rolecop isn't beneficial to town.

I notice you've constantly tried going "lol, Prana's an idiot"... which, fuck everyone doing that.

What none of you have done is told me how saving the miller IS FUCKING BENEFICIAL AT THE EXPENSE OF THE ROLECOP.

Why do you say at the expense of the rolecop when the rolecop is alive?

Like... serious-fucking-ly.

How is "miller 1 dies, miller 2 dies" WORSE for the town than "Miller one dies, a town PR dies, miller is NK'd due to being obv town".

Scenario 1 is two mislynches. Scenario 2 can be limited to one mislynch. Town doesn't need to lynch a rolecop like they do a miller.

You mean the rolecop that is currently alive because they took out the IC because any potential protective role was drawn away from it so protect the claimed power role, despite the fact it was a 1 shot, and would have been better dead N2 to confirm the miller over losing the IC?

You are alive solely BECAUSE you are scum.

Fucking hell.

[PranaDevil]

Clearly any protective we have that did that... because they clearly didn't protect the IC N2.

If we have a protective role... they didn't protect the IC. If we don't have one... then it makes town weaker still.

And we should not mass claim because THEN SCUM KNOW WHO TO KILL.

Jesus wept.

And why the fuck am I arguing with two scums anyway?

We need Persivul gone please, then Tanner has to go, as if popo is town, that makes Tanner scum.

[PranaDevil]

Tanner is a scum due to VCA saying one of me, Tanner and popo is.

If Persivul flips red, as I've been saying he will a fair chunk of the game now, that means popo is town. Anyone thinking Persivul/Prana is a scum team has not been reading the game, that means it would be Tanner.

[PranaDevil]

Can we be lynching Persivul now? I'm tired of his attempts to twist people onto his side by twisting the facts constantly.

He still has done basically nothing all game, yet wants to make out he's a town leader.

[PranaDevil]

persi has moved on to AtE, caught scum's last resort

i dont understand this shit. how can u vote me here? you of all people should know im telling the truth??? WTF

reminder to myself in future games that george bailey is a fucking VI

fuck off

or GB is persi's scum buddy in which case hes an even bigger moron than if he is town

Mastina says to look back to early game, when scum haven't gotten comfortable yet. I triple ISO'd prana, luca and george. Here's their D1 interactions FWIW:

Spoiler:

VOTE: Prana

Devil be gone!

VOTE: Prana

Devil be gone!

VOTE: Luca

No U.

Also, my first game back in a while. So expect me to need to shake off some rust. (Ooh, scum preparing to return to this as defense later? Who knows?)

Any reason you switched to a bw vote after a joke vote?

To build a wagon. What's the point of RVS if no one is pressured?

I obviously don't scumread Persival right now. But I don't townread him either.

I mean... at this exact moment in time, nobody should be townreading anyone (well... bar one person, but y'know... anyone scum reading them needs a slap).

The L-2 is more a scum leaning thing in my mind than a faulty town read.

What's wrong with putting someone to L-2? Hammering would be an obvious scum claim.

Like, I get this mindset if it was a newbie game, but most people have the incentive to either unvote or not hammer.

The L-2 is more a scum leaning thing in my mind than a faulty town read.

What's wrong with putting someone to L-2? Hammering would be an obvious scum claim.

Like, I get this mindset if it was a newbie game, but most people have the incentive to either unvote or not hammer.

I've seen people enter and just throw a random vote on without paying attention to the thread, especially that early in the game. Not worth the risk.

I'm struggling to see what town gains from that tbh. Maybe if Una could talk more about what kind of reactions he was expecting and what the lack of reaction actually means in this context, then it'd be helpful?

I'll also point out Persivul is also pushing to rush the day to completion for the sake of it, and cut off extra discussion, seemingly to stop "WIFOM" discussion... and seems to ignore the fact that it's more we can look at later.

Seriously?

For anyone else watching the above and not spotting scummy shit...

popo tracked GB, it's entirely plausible that George is scum and didn't submit the kill, and so went nowhere. So Tanner's post is just complete bollocks.

Persivul has just grabbed a handful of posts and gone "read these". No attempt at claiming anything is there at all, he's just flailing, and hoping people will get off his wagon.

Obv.Scum is now obvious.

Persivul flipping scum completely kills Tanner too, because as there has to be scum between me, popo and Tanner, and Persivul's scum flip proves popo was being truthful, and I could not be scum with Persivul, the only option in that grouping is Tanner.

Tanner thus is also flailing around, joining Persivul with insulting anyone who says anything that leads to their lynch.

I'll also note Tanner has spent half the game trying to insult me because of my Persivul reads. If he was town he would actually be trying to listen, and not expect me to repeat the same obvious point multiple times.

[PranaDevil]

Like I said, no lynch is ideal for scum here..

I mean... obviously.

Because that means you stayed alive, and scum still have their full team. If there's a lynch, scum are down one, and tomorrow they lose another too.

I want the riabi slot to come in the thread and do SOMETHING

This too... like seriously... why replace in if you can't play the game?

[PranaDevil]

All that being said, I'm in a weird spot where I really don't think popopo or their "supporters" are that believable or towny at all, BUT I'm meaning towards Persivul being the more reasonable lynch here anyway.

More reasonable? Do tell. How is it more reasonable or beneficial to lynch town over scum? Lynching popo and maintaining one allowable mislynch is FAR superior.

That said, with 3 scum plus mavs, it's doubtful the other 4 of you will come together on popo, especially with ruby absent. That's why I'm playing with a focus on endgame without me here.

Ruby is town, cheers for the help.

[PranaDevil]

popo is avoiding the thread to not give out associates towards his scumbuddies when he flips Red? Good catch, Prana!

Persivul literally just announced Ruby as town there.

Otherwise, why would we struggle to lynch scum if Ruby was scum?

[PranaDevil]

It's almost like you are taking my comments entirely out of context to further your own agenda...

Oh no it's EXACTLY like that.

Bit like how you, and others, tried to make out popo just "happened" to choose a role that gets you lynched instead... but yet ignore that they did a flip on my alignment at the same time, which was clearly designed to steer people away from me, and towards you, in the event of their flip.

You flip red now, me and popo are as good as conf-town as can be.

[PranaDevil]

Oh no, you did ignore it, because it was at the same time popo was breadcrumbing they had a guilty on you.

Don't worry, when you flip red this game should be sewn up.

[PranaDevil]

I agree that we all want to hear from that slot. But still, I don't see where you really need to hear from that slot to make up your own mind between me and popo. All the facts are there.

I get a feeling it's more "would rather not go to night without everyone" than "I require hearing from that slot right now".

Also, everyone responding to the situation is good in advance of the next day phase, it's much easier for someone to say "I knew that would be the result" after the fact, than making them comment on it before a lynch.

Like I said day one. More information is better for town, never worse.

[PranaDevil]

Yeah, if there IS a cop... do not out yourself.

We lynch Persi, and learn loads by that alone. If he's scum we can look into that, if he's town, popo is insta-lynched.

[PranaDevil]

The gamestate is: either a rolecop or a tracker. Read my game. Read luca/popo. Decide which one is townier. Vote.

Point being I find it troubling that with this gamestate and this little time left, George is talking setup spec. Looks like he wants to be able to pin his eventual decision on mechanics, rather than reads.

This right here. Regardless of Persi's side, people need to make a decision which way they are voting, and actually put a vote down, because a no-lynch does not help town, so work out who you feel is scummier and vote for them. Ideally let the disappearing town/scum slot get back to say something, but be prepared to vote if it comes to it.

Discussing set up spec so close to end of day, especially when set up spec boils down to "we need an investigative role" is not helping town... nor is ignoring the fact that we have two claimed investigative roles that do not exist together in this game (unless Persi is a scum rolecop of course)

If there's a cop we don't have to risk the mislynch.

If there is a Cop who has either a clear or a guilty on either of Persi or popo and he

hasn't

come out yet, then he's a fucking moron. Otherwise, the Cop (which probably doesn't even exist, let's be honest) stays quiet, and we lynch one of the two. That is what's mechanically optimal ffs.

All of this too.

[PranaDevil]

mavs' turn on Persivul seems forced, and is actually the biggest red flag to me when it comes to choosing between Pers/popopppopoop being scum.

This is a good point

Yea, I guess this doesn't come down to Persivul vs popopopo after all.
It comes down to mavs vs Prana.

This is a ridiculous point

[PranaDevil]

VOTE: popopopo

Sorry popo

I think cop is the likeliest in this scenario.

If you flip green, then the next two lynches are set for the next two days.

ANSWER ME THIS. HOW THE HELL DID I KNOW YOU DIDNT GO ANYWHERE NIGHT 1??????????????

GOD FUCKING DAMNIT WHAT THE FUCK IS THIS SHIT. GEORGE YOU IF ANYONE SHOULD KNOW IM TELLING THE TRUTH REEEEEEEEEEEEEE

This is a good point.

Scum-popo has no clue if George was a Vanilla (unless popo is scum with a scum-Persi-rolecop, and... that's ridiculous for anyone for that to be the case and they copped George).

So, George either has to be scum himself (with either of the claimed roles, could be bussing popo on the slim chance Persivul is town), or a VI.

But at no point does town-George not trust popo fully there.

[PranaDevil]

Under 24 hours to the end of the day. Persivul needs to swing, now

[PranaDevil]

Well, this game is up shit creek without a paddle if Tanners ATE decides the game there.

You flip that entire thing around, and I could give the exact same argument that Tanner did, for me. Like... it's not even funny.

[PranaDevil]

One thing we know, as fact, is we have caught scum. Whoever you believe, Persivul or popo, one of them IS scum. Going to no lynch today is not good, because it takes us to mylo tomorrow with nothing resolved.

I would rather we fuck up and lynch popo over not lynching. Because we get evidence Persi is scum for tomorrow.

But anyone not voting, pick a side and vote now. No more waiting, no seeing what someone else says, get your vote on, because we are currently risking a no lynch, and if that happens, everyone not voting popo or Persi has some serious shit to answer for

[PranaDevil]

I believe mavs is a miller, the rolecop claim is slightly more up in the air, but the argument someone made that it would be far easier for scum to sit back and mislynch the miller today then claim rolecop and clear them makes enough sense to me

for now

.

This isn't a big deal and is more a musing to myself, but leaving an out like that - I'm going to think of it as the

for now

tell in the future.

For now... meaning until he tracks you that night you mean?

Very nice of you to point out popo planned to track you N2.

[PranaDevil]

You mean a PR hid their role from you!? Shock horror!

[PranaDevil]

Oh look, Prana has posted. Has he replied to my 1227? No? Ok.

I thought it was a rhetorical question.

I gave you the benefit of the doubt there, considering the answer is "practically all of it".

[PranaDevil]

@Prana - are you able to nuance your read/decision towards todays lynch at all?
Is it more about you REALLY believing in popopopo, or is it more about

scumreading/suspecting Persivul to the extent that popopopo providing an actual guilty is a bonus

?

This bit, I already had a pretty solid scum read on Persivul prior to that. I had planned to do a full ISO of popo and Tanner, and popo revealed that info.

Considering I was already as close to 100% as possible that Tanner or popo have to be scum, it means if Persi is scum, Tanner is his partner without fail.

It's then about catching the 3rd. Possibly Knightmare due to how quick he shoved Persi, who he had been townreading all game, under the bus.

[PranaDevil]

Out of interest in not having a no lynch... I will lynch popo before deadline if I absolutely have to, to go into tomorrow with actual information.

I would much, much, much rather lynch Persivul. But one of them must be lynched today to gain further information.

I will set an alarm for 1 hour before deadline, and check the game state then.

I will be super pissed off if anyone here screws up a lynch today.

[PranaDevil]

[

The most interesting development today is prana saying he'd vote popo if needed. I think it's a bluff, but I'm already voting popo, so I can't call it.

No lynch will harm us massively. Someone gets lynched if I get a say in it.

I just won't push to keep my biggest scum read alive.

[PranaDevil]

Fuck it, I am NOT letting someone randomly pull a vote and have us go to no lynch.

George clearly isn't voting Persivul.

Una may vote Persivul

But that still requires the Ruby slot to vote to give a hammer without someone switching somewhere.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: popo

[PranaDevil]

Didn't expect it that early from PD.

There was 5 hours on the clock.

Less than 4, and no guarentee some tit wouldn't unvote. Not allowing it, not now.

[PranaDevil]

Drew-Sta

(7)

Persivul;mavsfan41

;Knightmare491;Ruby Red;

farside22

;GeorgeBailey;UnaBombaH;

Not on the lynching wagon -

popopopopopopo

, Tanner, PranaDevil,

Red Panda, Eve, Drew-Sta

-----------------------

Red Panda

(6)Tanner;

Persivul

;

popopopopopopo

;

Eve;mavsfan41

;Knightmare491

Not on the lynching wagon - GeorgeBailey, PranaDevil, Ruby Red, UnaBombaH,

Red Panda

------------------------

popopopopopopo

(5)Tanner;

Persivul

;Knightmare491;GeorgeBailey;PranaDevil

Not on the lynching wagon - Ruby Red,

popopopopopopo

,

mavsfan

, UnaBombaH

-------------------------

I do not think Tanner would bus popo like that if they were scum together.

George would not have dived to the popo wagon knowing I was ready to lynch popo if absolutely needed.

Knightmare is scum on the popo wagon. (Him buying Persivul as scum as fast as he did yesterday was sketchy as fuck)

UnaBombaH is scum for everything Persivul said yesterday (and it was part of why I was so willing to hammer popo, things no longer felt like they added up)

The one, and only, other option outside of this, is if Persi and mavs had a plan with popo, which is so far out there I'm not going to actively consider it. If that's what happened and you guys double bluffed me with it, you deserve the win.

I'm happy with Knightmare or Una today

VOTE: Knightmare491

[PranaDevil]

I'm fine with mass claim, I believe we have the game sewn up as we have some pretty solid town now in Persivul and Tanner (mavs kill was obvious of course).

[PranaDevil]

If Persi died it merely confirms mavs even harder.

mavs dying doesn't strictly speaking confirm Persi.

However, short of Persi vs popo being scum vs scum, Persi is already confirmed. I do not think the long game was for Persi and popo to sell each other out and roll on.

I could have seen a Tanner NK, because it allows the WIFOM of a mavs/Persi double scum thing, but mavs made solid sense.

My only uncertainty is if the Ruby slot is scum. Because we've heard so little from it.

[PranaDevil]

Oh, and in case you forgot, popopo either GUESSED that George did nothing N1 or they are scum together.

This is a very good reminder. I'd totally forgotten that too.

Considering George could have been a PR if he was scum... it's possible he's scum, highly possible.

Might be a better lynch than Knight, as my reads have clearly been fucking shocking this game.

[PranaDevil]

If nobody has any objections, Prana, mind kicking off the massclaim?

I'm a basic VT, nothing fun over here.

I believe it's puppy next.

[PranaDevil]

Question for anyone still thinking I'm scum.

Why do I, voluntarily no less, offer to vote popo to avoid a no lynch? (Note, I did this BEFORE anyone else followed me and said the same).

I could have easily ignored it and let no lynch happen as scum, which Persi even pointed out would have been great for scum (and he would have been right. Today would have just resumed the back and forth between him and popo, with popo being able to lie about their night actions).

[PranaDevil]

Question for anyone still thinking I'm scum.

Why do I, voluntarily no less, offer to vote popo to avoid a no lynch? (Note, I did this BEFORE anyone else followed me and said the same).

I could have easily ignored it and let no lynch happen as scum, which Persi even pointed out would have been great for scum (and he would have been right. Today would have just resumed the back and forth between him and popo, with popo being able to lie about their night actions).

To appear "Town"? To not be able to be called out on it? To make this exact argument tomorrow? Plenty reasons.

Plenty of stupid, nonsensical reasons.

Give me one that actually makes logical sense.

What's more likely if I'm scum? I continue pushing for Persi considering I've been on at him basically the entire day? Or I switch to popo to gain information over a no lynch?

Seriously, it's a no-contest. Anyone pushing me as scum today is either blinkered town, or scum hoping for an easy lynch.

[PranaDevil]

Prana, you do understand you never ever make it to LyLo here right? Right? Ok.

Put it this way. I'm town, I'm not going "yeah fine, lynch me", because I want a town win. So if you are going to stick your fingers in your ears and not pay attention to shit... then you deserve a town loss.

[PranaDevil]

Right.

But what you've all conveniently ignored is the most important question...

Why in the blue hell would I make a very loud statement that I WILL hammer popo, when I had literally no reason to do so?

Fuck me, this town gets focused in one direction and literally ignores everything else.

Day 1. We vote Drew with little to no real discussion on anyone else.

Day 2. We vote Panda, with little to no discussion on anyone else.

Day 3. We got discussion... but only because popo lied, and there was no certainty we would get a lynch without my vote, as Una was not necessarily voting popo (already said they would vote Prsi again most likely), and I didn't want some plank to remove their vote for some stupid reason.

Day 4. Now its tunnel on me.

Town has lost this game severely if that keeps up.

Also, I know I'm town. Only a complete idiot pushes for a confirmed town lynch. I am confirmed town to me, therefore I'm not pushing for my lynch. Understand how that works Tanner?

[PranaDevil]

I would add something here, but it's meaningless, so I'll just post garbage to avoid a prod until you lynch me, and subsequently go "oh yeah... Prana was right, maybe we should look at other lynch options for a change".

[PranaDevil]

In fact, after my flip, return to this:

Tanner isn't necessarily town, he's latched onto Persi all game thus far, could easily be very clever buddying. He's also tunnelling on me pretty hard, because he views me as the easy lynch.

Knightmare has been tunnelling me all game too (much like I was with Persi admittedly) but keeps diving all over the place, clearly diving on anything deemed an "easy lynch" such as Persi when popo gave the "guilty" verdict. Ask yourselves why.

Una... well there was a great case against him last night that's been conveniently ignored today... look into that as well, the case, and why it has been conveniently dropped today.

[PranaDevil]

Are you genuinely surprised at being the next lynch candidate? You do know posts like these don't help you (or us for that matter) if you're Town, yeah?

You do know that basically reading my posts and going "who cares?" doesn't help me give a crap... yeah?

[PranaDevil]

Drew-Sta (7)

Persivul

;

mavsfan41

;Knightmare491;Riabi;

farside22

;GeorgeBailey;UnaBombaH;

there was scum on the wagon - wow i am s m a r t

We knew this last day phase.

Unless, me, you AND popo were scum together... this was known before popo's lynch.

It also means, unless you think Una and Ruby are both scum, scum has to have bussed on popo's lynch... and we know scum would bus a partner there when it seemed inevitable. (Yes, "hur hur, we know you did Prana" though it's a stupid comment) Meaning George or Knightmare are obviously scum right there.

The question you then need to consider is which of Ruby or Una is scum from those who didn't lynch popo.

[PranaDevil]

@Persi, @Tanner what do you guys think about this, what do you think is more likely? Scum! PD not paying attention on his read progression on his buddy Una or a town! Una?

Look at this progression of Una read from PD, he goes from being a scum read to a town read(?)
It would make more sense if Una was in null because below are the only three points he makes about Una, in which the last one he says that he could be scum. I don't think the things that he has said can justify PD reading Una as town now.

Spoiler:

So... Scum team is leaning in the grouping of:
Persivul
Knightmare
Panda
Una

Una #511 Makes the same point I've been making regarding Persivul.

Una #515 This is good. Una could easily have coasted off the rolecop claim if he were scum, and brought up stuff as wifom later, but he pushes the fact that a rolecop claim doesn't have to be town.

Una #574 Good posting by Una, and against my bad posting. Una could be scum still, and distancing brilliantly... but I'm not so sure there.

Final conclusion:

Reads are:

Town:
Eve

Likely town:
Mavs
Popo
Una

Null:
George
Tanner
Riabi

Scum:
Persivul
Knightmare
Panda

What do you do with that when I flip Green.

Honest question.

[PranaDevil]

Isn't this all about tomorrow now? I'm assuming we're lynching prana today. Don't think we'll be in lylo tomorrow.

If we get comfortable with me/you/george/knight, then it's a matter of lynching through prana/una/puppy. I'm not saying I'm 100% there, but it's looking better. I feel more comfortable about george now after looking at those votes. Don't like una so far today.

Knightmare is scum.

[PranaDevil]

Knightmare is still scum.

[PranaDevil]

Knightmare is still scum.

Yeah, you've pushed him all game.

Just like you pushed me all game.

Just like he was pro-town you all game, and anti-popo... until popo faked a guilty and he fell over himself in his haste to vote you.

My pushing you at least was from a position of already scum-reading you.

Knightmare's... was nothing of the kind, and he blindly accepted his scum read was a tracker, and his town read must be scum.

Also, if you are all believing George is town... well SOMEBODY bussed their partner... and when I flip green you get to choose between George, Knightmare and Tanner.

Unless you truly believe scum wasn't on the popo wagon, OR the Ruby wagon.

In fact... that's a good point, Ruby's only scum was popo, Knightmare hammered, Tanner was first on, and they're the only two we know nothing about from that wagon...

So when I flip, you all need to consider what's going on there, as those of you going "Prana>Una>Puppy" or whatever... when I flip green, you need to seriously consider the fact that, at that point, you are suggesting scum did not bus, at all...

[PranaDevil]

Not Ruby's only scum, Panda's only scum.

[PranaDevil]

How many days do we have? We're going to lynch between PD, Una and Puppy then we can try to eliminate pairs and lynch accordingly.

For the rest of town...

You have exactly one day once you lynch me, to hit scum. One solitary day.

So once you mislynch me, take note of what I've said with the voting. somebody bussed popo... and I'm not sure popo was the only scum on the Panda wagon.

[PranaDevil]

Persivul.

I'm going to flip green.

So... tell town what they should do when that happens.

[PranaDevil]

You can't.

You have to be bang on the money... like... the next lynch after me HAS to be correct. Once I'm gone town is in LyLo... "lynch this person then that one" is no longer good enough.

[PranaDevil]

Persivul.

It's not about "fear of failure" it's about "if you're town, and I flip green, you need to consider that lining up lynches doesn't work anymore"

Your play this game is VERY anti-town... even now...

In fact, your play right now makes me return to suspecting you as being scum and playing town like a it's a fine tuned guitar. Because it's exactly my issue with you that made me suspect you before.

You refuse to actually discuss and consider anything other than what you are tunnelling on. You make a decision and you aim for confirmation bias, such as hunting out my past games (most of which are nearly TEN years old) and are happy to ignore any and all town wins I had... such as, y'know... the one I used past wagons to help win the game... which I was nominated a scummy for as I nailed the entire scum team when I replaced in...

If you are town, you NEED to consider what happens when I flip green, but you don't care, do you? You don't care if town wins, because "meh, if we lose who cares", right? THAT is not a town behaviour. And anyone who bitched at me for not giving a damn when I pointed out me replying was pointless need to be pulling Persivul up right now. Like... this is the bullshit that makes people not be fucked to participate.

So... can the rest of you start calling Persi out on his anti-town, and shitty playing please? Because if he's town... he's harming it massively... he's only hit scum once so far, and that's solely because they counter claimed him.

In fact... that's a good point, Ruby's only scum was popo

When this flips red..

Not Ruby's only scum, Panda's only scum.

This was either an intentional "slipup" or it was puppy all along.

Tanner (I think) does it earlier in the game... you ignore it completely... I make a mistake (around slots that keep getting replaced I'll note) and it's "a slip up"... seriously Una?

[PranaDevil]

Put it this way... if Persivul is town... he's lost us the game already.

Knightmare and Una are the scum.

Persivul is literally stating that ZERO scum bussed popo.

HOW THE HELL IS THAT POSSIBLE?

So... let me ask you bluntly Persivul, because, once again, I WILL flip green. At this stage I'm not arguing for you to "not lynch me", because fuck it, you want to balls the game up, be my guest.

What I AM arguing for... is you to look at what the facts are when that happens.

And the current facts are... you are pushing for an outcome where ZERO scum bussed their partner, and ONLY popo was scum on the Panda wagon, and TWO were on the Drew wagon...

So... the easiest "sit back and let it lynch itself" wagon had two scum on it... the Panda one which needed a shove had a single scum on it, and the scum wagon had zero scum on it...

You are suggesting the easier the vote, the more scum were on the wagon...

When I flip green, it means Tanner, George or Knightmare is scum.

It cannot be Una and Puppy.

Prana-Puppy-George is still my assessment of the situation.

At least this has someone from the popo lynch on it.

[PranaDevil]

At least this has someone from the popo lynch on it.

DUDE - YOU WERE ON THE POPO LYNCH.

AND WHEN I FLIP GREEN YOU SAID YOU CONTINUE DOWN YOUR LYNCH WHICH HAS NOBODY FROM THE POPO LYNCH ON IT.

Fuck me. How are you not getting this?

[PranaDevil]

Right... Persivul, stop tunnelling or one fucking second, right?

Even if you think I'll flip red, I don't give a fuck, I'm the lynch, right? Whatever. Who the fuck cares?

But, if you want town to win this fucking thing, and if you're town you're dead tonight, so make a SINGLE post considering what I say below.

I flip green... right? Consider that now.

WHERE DO YOU CONSIDER NEXT?

Do not say "Una/Puppy" because then you are suggesting no scum was on the popo wagon.

So who is most scummy out of Knightmare, George and Tanner?

Do not say "it won't happen" because I know it will, and if the mod fucked up and sent me a town PM instead of a scum one somehow... well town can safely ignore your response anyway.

There is no pro-town reason to ignore what happens when I flip green.

[PranaDevil]

If you aren't scum, then it would have to be Knight/George -- actually, it would be funny if we were all just yelling at each other while they chilled out...

It's not that team. No way did they both bus popo. One of them was on the Persi wagon at a bare minimum. The only way both scum would be on popo would be if there was not a second wagon going, and scum hammered popo.

As it is... anyone believing I'm scum cannot have anyone on the popo wagon as scum with me (like Persi), that being said... I know I flip town.

So one scum was on popo, the other was on Persi (or at least floating round there in regards to Una).

So the two left in the scum team is from these:

Tanner/Knightmare/George = Scum 1
Puppy/Una = Scum 2

So... I want everyone to tell me their top scum picks from each "pod" now.

Yes, I'm ignoring me. I know I flip town, this gives everyone their full information now, so when I'm lynched and you return tomorrow, you all can consider those blocks for where to lynch.

[PranaDevil]

Puppy, Una... one of you is scum... trying to convince each other is doing nothing for town, please tell me who you find scummiest out of Tanner, George and Knightmare.

P-edit, thankyou Puppy.

So Puppy is for an Una/Knight team, following by an Una/George team.

Next please?

[PranaDevil]

Reads on who is scum in each pod
Pod A - Tanner/George/Knightmare
Pod B - Puppy/Una

Puppy:
Main read: Una/Knight
Second read: Una/George

Una:
Main read: Puppy/George

Tanner, Persi, George and Knightmare still to go.

P-edit - Persi, you're being an ass, I am adding you to my personal blacklist after this game if you are town, you are utter gash to play with, and are the most annoying player I have ever played with... and I had to deal with Chesskid.

[PranaDevil]

graveyard, if i screw the pooch on this one i'm sorry, persi just doesn't make sense here, im not going to wifom myself into the most improbable scumteam here

It's only because it doesn't make sense anymore that I'm not still riding him.

He's the most anti-town player in this entire game by a very long way.

"No, I refuse to do anything all game, and I'm going to push someone, then ignore a legitimate question about what happens if my read flips green, because... I'm unable to do anything pro-town".

If he's scum... I'll happily say I told you so from the grave though, if he's not... he needs to learn that refusing to actually help town is a huge negative.

[PranaDevil]

You could be forced to go down there tomorrow.

How am I supposed to know how accurate they are? If you're talking in general, I guess ~average? Which is why I'm asking you for help.

Mate, Persi won't be alive tomorrow, scum are required to kill him. He doesn't care about helping town, he's only interested in tunnelling me, and thus won't entertain helping the rest of the town in regards to what happens in LyLo.

Also... I only have Puppy and Una's reads on the pods. I'm still expecting everyone to answer as it's anti-town to not do so:

Reads on who is scum in each pod
Pod A - Tanner/George/Knightmare
Pod B - Puppy/Una

Puppy:
Main read: Una/Knight
Second read: Una/George

Una:
Main read: Puppy/George

Tanner, Persi, George and Knightmare still to go.

[PranaDevil]

Fuck me... I've seen some dumbass stuff before... but seriously?

"We don't need to solve the game today... so let's do fuck all" - Persi 2020.

[PranaDevil]

It's been all game Puppy. So it's very easy for scum to coast on through. Persivul has his blinkers on, hes right, nobody else matters, planning for a worst case scenario doesn't matter, and if he fucks up "oh well, just a game, lol".

He ruins the game for everyone else with that attitude. Why should I give a toss about any game I'm in with Persi when I know he won't put actual effort in, because "it's just a game".

People play this to win. Persi clearly isn't interested in winning or losing, thus plays anti-town.

Any game with a player like that in is a shit game. He doesn't care if anyone else wants to play the game properly, merely that he does what he wants.

[PranaDevil]

Would love to. But I would be lying if I didn't think it was an elaborate bluff by them.

Do I think it actually is? No, I don't think popo attacks a scum partner yesterday. Popo could have easily caled out someone else, or claimed Doc to see if there was a counter claim. Scum-popo doesn6try and lynch scum-Persi.

Tanner could have been budding Persi all game. Persi clearly has an ego he wants massaged.

I still stand by Knight/Una

And Puppy, Persi clearly is talking like I'm scum, thus theres a mislynch left to go. Before Lylo. Much as I would love to call him scum for it.

[PranaDevil]

Fuck me, my phone autocorrect everywhere, and I fat finger half the words... pretty sure you can all work that out though.

And no Puppy, there can only be another mislynch if I flip scum. Person believes I'm scum, thus he believes there's the chance to miss scum tomorrow.

He's wrong, but that is not a scum slip.

[PranaDevil]

Puppy, put it this way.

Even if you are right, and Persi is scum... this town isn't letting that lynch go through. So it's not worth your brain power.

You or Una is scum.

So tomorrow, you vote Una, Una votes you, and everyone else makes their mind up between you.

Either town lynch scum, or they lose.

If they lynch scum, they can have another go with the trio of Tanner, George and Knightmare.

The only way any of that changes is if Persi is scum.

Even then... Tanner AND Persi aren't scum who bus popo. So Persi would be scum with Puppy or Una.

Wither way, Una or Puppy need lynching tomorrow, it's the only logical lynch.

[PranaDevil]

Puppy, there are two scum left.

One is between you and Una. One is between Tanner, George and Knightmare.

Stop posting drivel.

[PranaDevil]

Why were there two millers?

Its wifom right now.

[PranaDevil]

Reads on who is scum in each pod
Pod A - Tanner/George/Knightmare
Pod B - Puppy/Una

Puppy:
Main read: Una/Knight
Second read: Una/George

Una:
Main read: Puppy/George

Tanner:
Main read: Puppy/Knightmare

Persi, George and Knightmare still to go.

[PranaDevil]

prana, if you want to hear it, sure - there's a chance in my mind that you flip green. An issue I have with you and can't resolve is that you just seem to roll scum all the time. An old white flag game is all I found that you were in for a significant amount of time. I mean, yeah, maybe you haven't played town enough to know not to be a tunneling, misrepping, AtE little shit. Nothing's sure to town.

No, it wasn't a misrep.

[PranaDevil]

And the difference is, other players are at least looking at others, are actually considering what happens when I flip town, and have done so the rest of the game.

You have admitted you don't take it seriously, and can't be fucked to put any effort in beyond "thats my top read, I don't care beyond that".

That ALONE should be enough for D1 policy lynched going forwards. Because if you are town, you are a danger to it (like now), and if you're scum, then it's a good hit.

[PranaDevil]

I'm not even saying yours is "unacceptable" for fucks sake.

I'm asking you to look tomorrow, because you die tonight. So to give advice for where you believe town should look ON ME FLIPPING GREEN.

Una/Puppy like you've said multiple times ONLY works if I'm scum.

So when I flip green, town need as much information as possible.

So who is most scummy, to you, out of Knightmare, George and Tanner?

Answer me (and town) that one question.

[PranaDevil]

Knightmare, and George.

Pod A: Tanner, George and Knightmare
Pod B: Una, Puppy

Pick your scummiest in each pod please.

[PranaDevil]

Or you could be pro-town and let George and Knightmare actually answer the very pro-town information I'm asking of them.

Yes, I'm the lynch today. So sit down, shut the fuck up and let the pro-town people play the damned game. Jesus fucking christ.

[PranaDevil]

Reads on who is scum in each pod
Pod A - Tanner/George/Knightmare
Pod B - Puppy/Una

Puppy:
Main read: Una/Knight
Second read: Una/George

Una:
Main read: Puppy/George

Tanner:
Main read: Puppy/Knightmare

George:
Main read: Puppy/Knightmare

Knightmare still to go.

[PranaDevil]

My reads don't matter numb nuts, this is for tomorrow once I'm lynched.

Are any of you reading this?

Get off Persi's dick people.

[PranaDevil]

Not my reads, your reads on me.

[PranaDevil]

From Mastin Academy scum guide:

Now, you shouldn't ignore suspicion on you altogether--instead, redirect it, e.g.: "alright, I get it, you think I'm scum. But if I wasn't, who is? Talk to me, here".

Brilliant... it means absolutely fuck all right now you utter fucking gibbon.

I'm helping you bunch of prats prepare for tomorrow.

If everyone knows exactly who everyone else believes is most scummy in both pods prior to tonight, you have some information to return to tomorrow, understood?

Yes, I understand Persivul doesn't understand how the game works, and believes all you do is lynch your main suspect as fast as possible, with minimal discussion, and doesn't give a crap if he wins.

I play to win, therefore, as town, i want you fuckers best positioned to lynch scum tomorrow...

But hey, fuck it... why bother? None of you are.

Lynch Knightmare tomorrow.

Unless Persivul is alive. Then lynch him.

Bye.

[PranaDevil]

Lynch Knightmare or Persi tomorrow.

[PranaDevil]

Well done Puppy.

[PranaDevil]

I was criticising you all game. You refused to actually play the game, from day 1.

[PranaDevil]

I was criticising you all game. You refused to actually play the game, from day 1.

Since when? Him and Tanner were basically town leaders most of the game.

Persi wanted to rush every single day phase as fast as he could, skip discussion, just "this is my read, lynch them, get on with it". He was a town leader because of his role... his play was so anti-town that he was scummier than the scum in any game I've ever played.

[PranaDevil]

A trap

So, yeah, we were playing against both scum and the mod. I'm not a fan of that.

I know but things like those that were here need to be in games, sometimes.

No, they don't. Ever.

[PranaDevil]

It wasn't town aligned... it was mod aligned... it was designed SOLELY to be bullshit.

A game should be well designed so that the only thing to consider is what goes on within the game. Having to second guess the mod, at ANY stage, means the game is complete bullshit from the set-up.

That role was not needed, it did not benefit the game in the slightest, it didn't even come into the game (had it just been a VT, nothing would had changed in the game), it did not benefit this game at all.

The two millers were stupid just by themselves. Having 2 scum meant town were on a wild goose chase for a portion of the game, and the first couple of days were wasted as far as how things went.

It was a mess, town was a mess, scum survived due to being flakier than a certain cadbury's chocolate (Puppy was the shining beacon from that side, and deserved the win).

As a whole, this game was a shower of shite, from the set up to the player base (yes, this includes myself).

[PranaDevil]

Do you think that this game was not normal enough, then?

Most of the player base have called it a bad set-up, and pointed out part of the game was working out what the hell the mod was doing with it, rather than working out who the scum are...

At best it was a bastard game.

[PranaDevil]

I hope, to absolute fuck, that your next actual mini normal is normal.

10 town, 3 scum, all vanilla.
Or pick one of the newbie formats to use.
Or just use watcher and tracker instead of a cop, and a jailkeeper instead of a doc or something.

But games like this one? Please don't ever run a game like this ever again. Normal should be relatively predictable and... normal. Not totally bastard and unpredictable.

[PranaDevil]

10 town, 3 scum, all vanilla.

to be fair, this isn't actually Normal

Yeah that`s very not normal; people expect normals to be balanced(it is super scumsided), and they expect power roles.

4 mislynches is scum sided?

The fuck?

Am I on some weird planet where town cannot win unless they are overpowered or some bullshit?

Like... a Cop/Doc set up is super town sided (barring a lucky NK of either PR early on)... all vanilla with 25% as scum is balanced.

[PranaDevil]

I mean. It should be a relatively equal shot at winning. And there are a lot of factors that change that, obviously roles will change. But so will the type of player, and if slots are lurking or not contributing at all.

This game was a mess, and clearly a bastard game.

That EV may say scum will win roughly 4 out of 5 games. But 11-2, isn't good, not when the player base expect a 3 person scum team. There are a lot of factors to consider.

[PranaDevil]

It con-tiens a miller only on its own death. If it stays alive all game, it hasn't conf-towned anything.

This game was a mess, top to bottom.

[PranaDevil]

so this setup is getting a lot of flak. i think its fine.
i dont agree that the rolecop is a trap...it can conftown one of the millers.
thats actually really powerful.
if anything i think this setup looks hard for scum being 11:2, an ic and a few other town roles.
i dont have an issue with double miller. i think its fine to have duplicate roles other than vt.

Perfectly said
I feel like you've completely ignored everything said.

Double miller is a trap.

Rolecop simply clears a miller, which means you out the cop, out the miller and if that happens by D2 (which is did in this game) you've lynched a miller, cleared a miller, used a role cop on a miller, and have an IC (which likely dies N1). That gives scum easy pickings for N2 / N3 kills, and throws out all NK analysis completely.

D1 lynch is not valid, as it's a mislynch on a miller, and the D2 is likely a crap shoot.

So no. Coming from someone who played the game, you're IMHO wrong.

[PranaDevil]

Aha. I typed "perfectly said" at the wrong point... but what Drew posted is 100% accurate.