Jigsaw's Revenge - Game Over

[davesaz]

VOTE: GuiltyLion

I know essentially nothing about the flavor, hopefully that's not too much of an impediment.

[davesaz]

That could probably be worded better.

[davesaz]

I have a feeling that Hectic has a stockpile of images for all purposes.
Rather than be my usual self and grumble about it, I think I'll just relax and chuckle.
Certainly seems himself. As usual, not AI.

[davesaz]

Yeah, let's not discuss that plz.

[davesaz]

Anyone in a hood with flavor that fits with the hood could make that assumption, and it seems pretty valid to me.

[davesaz]

When the specific ratio is advertised, not sure why it's worthwhile to go into that.

[davesaz]

Past page 10 and neither A50 or Elsa have fakeclaimed. What's the world coming to?

[davesaz]

I don't see how that makes Elsa scum in any case. My main interest here is trying to avoid going down a 10 page rabbit hole into a wonderland where Boon game mechanics start showing up in other people's themes.

Can't rule out Elsa being scum for other reasons though. Scum!Elsa is quite capable of making an argument that shouldn't come from scum to try to throw us off.

[davesaz]

So BBmolla I'm surprised you aren't doing the check in once a day thing.
I don't mind you doing more than that, but now I'm wondering what the dividing line is.

[davesaz]

Cakez tells me I have to post in the main thread.

I’m not so sure about that.

Why wouldn't you want to?

[davesaz]

Bettlejuice!
BettleJuice!

This is the second time you responded to a post that clearly tells me you are not reading the thread and you seem to respond only to your name.

Reminding myself to ask about this, but wait until Vecna has had a chance to respond.

[davesaz]

Context: comment about Guilty Lion:

His reads seem phoned in.

Is this about the quantity of posts or quality? I'm never quite sure what people mean when they use "phoned in".

[davesaz]

Bettlejuice!
BettleJuice!

This is the second time you responded to a post that clearly tells me you are not reading the thread and you seem to respond only to your name.

Reminding myself to ask about this, but wait until Vecna has had a chance to respond.

I know you are not a chatty player in general but you have any insights thus far?

Voting me for being "unusual" is vaguely scummy, since it should be very well known that me being unusual is actually normal.
Asking about it makes you townier.
I have several gut townreads, for example ABR and Drixx. Momo is much improved over what I remember, though I'd have to check my past topics to find out how long it has been.
Battle Mage seems mostly town.
Hectic is Hectic. Pretty obviously town unless it's a huge deepwolf thing. I have more thoughts about him but it's bad for town to talk about those thoughts.
A50 is a little suspicious, mostly for a lack of playfulness that was also lacking in a game we were scum together. But he was also missing it in a game where he was town, so I don't know if it's maybe ups and downs in RL.
Elsa Jay making a comment about me overestimating his ability as scum is a little suspicious. Maybe I'm actually on track with that.
Pine implied he was posting somewhere else but not in the main thread. I want to hear why.
Guilty Lion and George seem a little empty. I've seen the same thing in their town game so it's not enough to go on for a read.

[davesaz]

a simple click on my iso would be enough to form an opinion on the statement davesaz.

Yes, I'm aware of that.

But clearly farsode feels the need to respond in weird ways when being called out on him being scared to vote me.

Noted, but unclear what it might mean about alignment.

[davesaz]

Explain how not having a read on you is shading.

[davesaz]

very little engagement from him and I agree 223 is a bizarre post, the assumption that scum fake claims are flavor linked to the PTs feels angle-shooty in a way that I don't think is likely to come from town. It feels more likely to be an excuse to push a mislynch later - 'they claimed [x] role and they're not in [y] hood' - and less like something DanyBoy genuinely believes is useful in finding scum.

I had previously commented on 223 and didn't feel it was necessary to comment again. But since you feel left out.

Anyone in a hood with flavor that fits with the hood could make that assumption, and it seems pretty valid to me.

Understandable if you're not in a hood that you wouldn't know what I'm talking about.

[davesaz]

There are (imo) scummier people not in hoods.

Who ya thinking of here?

[davesaz]

I kinda like ABR's attempt to get a major wagon going. Wagons are good.

[davesaz]

What about Guilty, Gamma?

It's not much but his scumread on me seems off, like he seems like he's not engaging enough for how he's treating me

I could be enticed to vote him but for now I'm good to stay where I am.

VOTE: GuiltyLion
I'm still not exactly sold but in the interest of non-confrontationalism I will do this.

I hate buzzwords, but this seems a bit like appeasement to me.

[davesaz]

What does this PoE represent exactly? You're confusing me, which means you're back to yourself, but it doesn't make things easier.

[davesaz]

@A50, I had assumed that you inferred my answer from my posting. It should be relatively clear if you look closely enough.

[davesaz]

I don't think it's too much to ask, to explain a read.

VOTE: Elsa Jay

I don't know what your idea of "nothing suspicious" is, but when I reread your ISO it turned up to be almost everything suspicious. Including the comment about trying not to be.

[davesaz]

I think 567 wins over 564, no question.

[davesaz]

And theres like 3-5 people townreading him, so I was hoping someone would tell me why

For me it was mostly tone. Not so much "that's good posting", but more like "seems pretty easy going / unconcerned" kind of tone.
But I kinda like your case, and don't like the way that it's being brushed off. I'd rather see actual discussion about it. And more posting from BM.

[davesaz]

In any case, we should concentrate our votes. Bring me a chair and rope.

It's a good first step. Let's pile on the votes guys, we don't have all day.

so we can get some bandwagons underway.

vs.

They're both awful bandwagons.

...

I thought your position was that wagons are good. What criteria are you using to determine good vs bad?

[davesaz]

Why is voting someone who is basically doing nothing a bad wagon?

[davesaz]

Xtoxm and Blake Belladonna could use to generate more material.
Pine needs to say something. Almost anything.

[davesaz]

That’s because it is appeasement.

Well, gotta say I didn't expect you to just admit it.

[davesaz]

well dave you could talk to me
when you announce to the thread like that without any follow up it seems like you just want to throw shade

There’s a whole page of stuff here you could comment on. Why did you only respond to my post?

[davesaz]

Attacking someone's mental state is not ever "tame". I'm generally fairly anti-PC as a rule, but I am pretty firmly against personal attacks in mafia. They don't advance the game. They only make it toxic. Please don't defend toxic.

There are a whole bunch of terms for

behavior

which is out of proportion to the threat. A comment on behavior is not a comment about the individual personally. A lot of them are synonyms for "irrational". Interpreting those as comments about mental state is a problem with the receiver, it is not a problem with the sender. I don't buy this for a second as being a real reaction. If it is a real reaction you don't belong on this site at all.

[davesaz]

well dave you could talk to me
when you announce to the thread like that without any follow up it seems like you just want to throw shade

There’s a whole page of stuff here you could comment on. Why did you only respond to my post?

nothing else caught my interest
is there something in particular you'd like me to comment on

A read would be nice. Perhaps a comment on someone else's read. I'm not all that picky as long as it expresses some kind of opinion on the game.

[davesaz]

it seems like you just want to throw shade

Forgot to mention this is a pet peeve of mine. Making a comment that someone hasn't posted enough material is in no way throwing shade. Throwing shade isn't even a thing. Accusing someone of throwing shade pretty much never means anything other than boo-hoo that guy made a comment about me.

[davesaz]

oh and Rampage had that line in there about "maybe GL and davesaz are bussing" and that was entirely illogical, feels like a subtle way to set me up if davesaz flips red

Nah, it's a subtle way of lining me up if you flip red. In either case it's totally nonsensical. I suspect he was just saying it to see if anyone would react.

[davesaz]

I'm reasonably certain this isn't farside's first game back, though the previous game I saw her in might have been where she replaced in.
I'd be interested to hear an updated why on the scumread, whether it's pushed or not. Your vote there is ancient.

How about Elsa Jay? Thoughts on whether the "not trying so what" attitude might be an attempt to be too scummy to be scum?

[davesaz]

You seem to have used the wrong tense in that comment.
But surely it isn't surprising that I would make a note of a couple people with single digit post counts and say I need to see more from them?

[davesaz]

Happy Birthday Pine, please post or replace out thanks!

See rules.

[davesaz]

I agree with the spirit of pushing Pine to post. If he's scum then lynching him is great. If he's not scum then we'll get almost nothing from it.

[davesaz]

It's funny nor one person -other than EJ himself- commented on my referencing him saying almost the same thing in another game where he was scum. I get that scum don't want to deal with that one way or another (if he is scum it's best if they let it die, and if he is town then either town pushes through the mislynch or scum use it later to mislynch me). Now why did no TOWN player talk about that?

In all honesty whatever you said may have flown right over my head. Was this before or after I was already scumreading him?

[davesaz]

oh and Rampage had that line in there about "maybe GL and davesaz are bussing" and that was entirely illogical, feels like a subtle way to set me up if davesaz flips red

Nah, it's a subtle way of lining me up if you flip red.

Yes that's just a play on I'm town so gotta fix that for you.

In either case it's totally nonsensical.

We both agree that it was illogical. Neither of our behavior toward the other looked like bussing so where did he get that idea from in the first place?

I suspect he was just saying it to see if anyone would react.

ABR is plainly going for reactions in damn near every post he makes.

[davesaz]

As for reads in 360, if saying what you're thinking when someone asks is a problem, then don't know what I can say about it.

[davesaz]

So you scumread BM but drixx is your 2nd strongest scumread?

So you either think drixx is hardcore bussing as his only read, or this proves youre really not reading the game at all?

oof

This is too good to want dead today.

Dunno, the quoted post feels like a possible gotcha type play from scum. The question includes a false dichotomy given two scumreads don't have to be scum together.
Maybe you're right about the "today" part though.

[davesaz]

@A50, yes I saw that. Also note these:

Still find it weird someone like Dave can overestimate my abilities, but yeah.

How about Elsa Jay? Thoughts on whether the "not trying so what" attitude might be an attempt to be too scummy to be scum?

[davesaz]

That's ongoing, you shouldn't refer to it.

[davesaz]

+1 on posting elsewhere not meaning anything. I might be caught up on reading at any given time, but if there hasn't been anything new posted that's worthy of a reply it may go some time before you'll see me again. Other times I might get crushed by something and get 20 pages behind in a game, and feel like my 5 minutes of available time is better used on something I'm not so far behind on. That's totally NAI for most people. Yes, there are a few select people who can be read by their apparent engagement, but it's a very short and specific list.

[davesaz]

You're probably thinking Jay Dragon something or other.

[davesaz]

I think 567 wins over 564, no question.

Davesaz is also scum. 567 is not a good case.

I'm not convinced you actually read the two posts that I pointed to.
564 is Albert saying that Tweet's case is

only

an OMGUS.
Tweet's 567 totally refutes Albert by showing that a non-OMGUS case

exists

.

My post says nothing about whether it's a good case. Albert was wrong is what my post says.

[davesaz]

That's still a judgment call on whether the case is good or bad, it is not what you originally said which was there was no case.
If someone gives reasons that I don't agree with, I don't say it's not a case at all, I say specifically what I disagree with. To do otherwise robs town of the information we need to make good decisions.

[davesaz]

Sigh.

I'm not saying don't wagon him. I'm saying to be careful about it. He has a history of reacting very poorly to pressure like this and I expect it to escalate with somebody like Albert B. Rampage at the helm.

I've fallen into that same trap multiple times in the past and it has yet to go in a positive direction for town.

I have no idea who you are, but it becomes obvious we have indeed played before.

[davesaz]

ABR transparently wants a big wagon, doesn't really care much who it's one, and doesn't need to have an actual basis for it.
The most interesting thing I see here is that he's very very reluctant to be the first.

[davesaz]

ABR transparently wants a big wagon, doesn't really care much who it's one, and doesn't need to have an actual basis for it.
The most interesting thing I see here is that he's very very reluctant to be the first.

Well he wont vote bm or drixx just to form a wagon.

Thanks, I hadn't noticed.

[davesaz]

Nah, ABR is probably town. Annoying as fuck and a little blind perhaps, but can't have everything.

[davesaz]

EJ is one of the two players scumreading Guilty with me.

You might want to check your facts.

[davesaz]

You said EJ scumread GL. A vote without reasons is not a scumread. You can't tell from that post why EJ voted there.

Bullying people into doing your bidding lets scum hide among the sheep.

[davesaz]

The way I see it, forcing scum to expand their lynchpool makes town think twice about voting them, corners them into a fixed position, and creates material for future analysis.

I'm going to just ignore A50's thing other than to say it's got me super confused.

Making town think twice about voting them (them being scum)? Isn't that a bad thing? We want town to be willing to vote scum when found, not make scum look more towny by blending in. Now if you were trying to say that forcing town into a big lynch pool will make town less likely to vote them (the town with big lynch pools), that's not such a bad idea and it lines up with things I sometimes try to do. Other than the dilution you get by helping scum blend in via prompting.

Cornering scum into a fixed position isn't a bad idea, but it also has the potential for cornering town into fixed positions too.

Creating material for further analysis I'm totally fine with. I like your professed goals, just not so much the methods.

[davesaz]

Why the Hectic townreads?

Tone and attitude matched what he's been as town in other games.
I have that read largely on hold RN due to the VLA.

[davesaz]

This looks a lot like ABR trying to rescue Drixx.

Yes, but what does that say about alignments?

[davesaz]

Oh, that question. Yeah that's a good question.

[davesaz]

Seems I have to be the one to point this out again. The game has an advertised town:scum ratio.
In a non-bastard game advertised with a specific town:scum ratio, I don't think a traitor is possible. Unless you're trying to argue it's 4 groupscum+traitor which would be a massive difference in balance.

[davesaz]

Oh, I still scumread you anyway for the overall (lack of) content in your posting.

[davesaz]

@dave: Did he crumb it like THIS? I mean, a link would make it easier for me to check for myself, or even the full game's name and mod

Someone else made that comment.

[davesaz]

How is it that the only one picking up on Hectic claiming scum is GL?

Patience, grasshopper.
I had to go back and re-read some stuff that I skimmed earlier in the day while on meetings and trying to run software tests.
It all clicks a lot better when read in slow-mo and not super distracted. That's a mighty good find.

VOTE: Hectic

Pedit: flash lynch? We're only at 3-4. No danger yet.

[davesaz]

It's the latter part.

[davesaz]

In that post that ABR quoted, it looks like Hectic shifts gears in the middle like he wanted the conclusion and had to find something to get there.

[davesaz]

Thinking back on it, first time I read that post I had to start a paragraph over because it suddenly stopped making sense. I thought at the time that I just lost concentration because of work.

[davesaz]

This post doesn't really fill me with confidence regarding Elsa though. I mean, I agree that Almo is scummy, but the reasoning here is iffy.

The subject goes from Elsa's post that's not that good (and doesn't even say Almost is scummy if you look closely), to agreeing that Almost is scummy, and back to the reasoning isn't good. I expected an Elsa vote from this (for the bad reasoning which is right here), not an Almost vote (scummy for what reason?).

[davesaz]

Oh, btw before I forget.

Spoiler:

Since Mathblade isn't here AFAIK, I'll say it. Pine should have kept his pants on a bit longer.

[davesaz]

Dunno, certainly hasn't been memorable, let me read.

[davesaz]

Ah, yes. 614 was fun in a Dwarf Fortress kinda of way. Gamma's in my list of people who are explicitly not trying to scumhunt and instead coasting through the day. I'm restraining myself from throwing tantrums over it.

[davesaz]

So basically what Albert said but in a lot more words.

[davesaz]

Hectic is a bad wagon because of votes like these. No reasoning behind them, other than it's a good wagon.

Keep reading, it comes out as you go.

[davesaz]

You don't just go from townreading someone and advocating not lynching them today (all of the above), to being "99%" sure they're scum. This is exactly the sort of false bravado and confidence scum like to exhibit, and sometimes gets them townread:

I disagree with this. Scum will try and keep their reads as consistent as possible to avoid suspicion, especially a player as active as ABR. It's hard to read ABR this game, but the fact that he was willing to make a noted change to his reads as the game progressed has to be counted as townpoints, def not scummy.

Counterpoint to that is that he has been vocal but not very in-depth on reads, so there are plenty of outs being left for natural looking changes.
I TR the motivation and willingness to change but very slightly suspect the lack of depth.

[davesaz]

Re: 1261 -- please identify what changed. It's far too dense to notice the changes without comparing it to a previous list, and I'm not that inclined to paste both lists into text files and run beyond compare on them.

I like the case on momo, but also place a high value on the power of competing wagons. Seeing Hectic struggle to find the case, which was very plainly stated by GL and by at least one person voting him, is entertaining at a minimum. It illustrates that he isn't truly reading and/or doesn't want to acknowledge it, and I think town would want to do both along with explicitly refuting it. I'll stay here but for the purposes of gauging wagon viability consider me willing to switch when needed.

pedit: wow, knives out

[davesaz]

@BM, Mod:

Please discuss via PM. There are new rules concerning demanding replace outs / threatening replace outs.

[davesaz]

Hectic is a bad wagon because of votes like these. No reasoning behind them, other than it's a good wagon.

Keep reading, it comes out as you go.

Let's hear what you saw then, Dave, now that we know the case doesn't actually exist. There's not going to be any continuity errors on my watch.

Was waiting to do this till I got to the end of catchup, but found a post that requires my attention.
UNVOTE:

Did you even bother to ISO me? I find it hard to believe you missed what I said. But anyway, I'll go back and point you to the post after I finish.

[davesaz]

This post doesn't really fill me with confidence regarding Elsa though. I mean, I agree that Almo is scummy, but the reasoning here is iffy.

The subject goes from Elsa's post that's not that good (and doesn't even say Almost is scummy if you look closely), to agreeing that Almost is scummy, and back to the reasoning isn't good. I expected an Elsa vote from this (for the bad reasoning which is right here), not an Almost vote (scummy for what reason?).

Hectic, here's your explanation. You said that Elsa was scummy, said you agreed with Elsa about Almost, and then voted Almost who was voting Elsa. It's a weird triangular logic that doesn't make sense at all.

[davesaz]

Hectic is a bad wagon because of votes like these. No reasoning behind them, other than it's a good wagon.

Keep reading, it comes out as you go.

Let's hear what you saw then, Dave, now that we know the case doesn't actually exist. There's not going to be any continuity errors on my watch.

Was waiting to do this till I got to the end of catchup, but found a post that requires my attention.
UNVOTE:

Did you even bother to ISO me? I find it hard to believe you missed what I said. But anyway, I'll go back and point you to the post after I finish.

why did you not believing Hectic, make you less inclined to believe he was scum?

Let me rephrase your question and see if I get the meaning.
You're asking why, if I didn't believe that Hectic missed what I said, would I believe his claim and unvote him?
The disbelief is about Hectic as a person, not about his role. I can believe the claim and still doubt whether he was reading.

[davesaz]

That doesn't change that Hectic's post (that several of us questioned) was illogical as fuck. It needed a wagon when that was what we had to go on.

In general I loathe the idea of lynching a possible cop. Having people want to lynch me as a claimed investigative was unbearable in the TM game. There are things you just don't do and that's one of them.

[davesaz]

That doesn't change that Hectic's post (that several of us questioned) was illogical as fuck. It needed a wagon when that was what we had to go on.

In general I loathe the idea of lynching a possible cop. Having people want to lynch me as a claimed investigative was unbearable in the TM game. There are things you just don't do and that's one of them.

was this a response to anything in particular?

Not anything in particular. I like being open about what I'm thinking.

[davesaz]

VOTE: Hectic

Pedit: flash lynch? We're only at 3-4. No danger yet.

Dis has red flavors.

Being that selective with the quote is a bit of a misrep. Care to explain?

[davesaz]

STILL waiting for GE to show up and spill his guts.

Long catchup, much angst.
I'll reply to this one though.
Not the kind of game where that metaphor is a good idea. It might come true.

[davesaz]

Sorry my last couple days have been way busier than anticipated.

I had a key that allows me to escape if I am in a game at any time. The key word is had, I gave it to ABR last night because he needed it more than me. Idk if the games with nothing happening were because of that yet because I have not read past like the first page of this Day.

How is it pro-town to reveal this now?

[davesaz]

My question for Gamma wasn't about giving the key, it was about revealing who the key went to.
If ABR is town, doesn't get lynched, and scum are the ones making the choices on traps, it tells them who not to trap.
If ABR is scum and this information makes us want to not lynch him, then that's bad too.

[davesaz]

This game is crazy hard I need to think more on it.

This was me early d2 (which ended before I even got caught up).
It's me today too, ~24 hours of shitstorm followed by some mechanical stuff that sounds way too good to be true.

I can help on that post you're looking at. Yes, I freely admit that I thought Hectic was scum lying about not being able to see what the case against him was. And I freely admit that I wanted some VCA to work with (the competing wagons thing) and yup it sucks that said VCA ends up looking bad for me. I still haven't had a chance to examine D2 to see if we got anything useful VCA from it, though seriously doubt it. Today's wagons may be helpful.

[davesaz]

Would the mod give him a cop fakeclaim while theres actually a town cop and 2 town IC's?

Given it's the "police" hood, why wouldn't it be a cop fakeclaim?

Not to mention if there is scum in the hood (likely given the numbers) it wouldn't be hard to choose a cop type role on one's own regardless of whether the fakeclaims contain lots of detail or not. A "internal affairs" who needs to clear out the rest of the hood makes a wonderful fakeclaim. The only real danger of fake claiming that would be if there were someone with that actual role.

[davesaz]

Pine was essentially just a (double) neighbor too.
Neighbors investigate as "not vanilla". They show up frequently in role madness games.
I don't know why that's something to question, which means to me that people questioning it are themselves suspicious.

[davesaz]

I'm surprised people aren't talking about the one actually scummy thing I've seen from ABR.

Is it the one where he manipulates people into sheeping him by threatening anyone who doesn't go along?

[davesaz]

Is it related to the big 1v1? I shut down when I come across those types of events. It happened in TM too, with different players.

[davesaz]

I don't, but it's hard to shake off my principles of not lynching un-CC'd roles.
That's causing a huge amount of indecision paralysis right now.

[davesaz]

The mod stated there could be multiples, I think? So a CC doesn't automatically mean one is each alignment.

That's not the basis of my hesitation though, un-CC'd isn't essential. Claims just make me stop in general, mostly because of golden rule and hating it when the shoe is on the other foot and people don't stop when I'm the town who trueclaims. My TM game is a perfect example. A CC would reduce that hesitation but would just leave me with a 1v1 to solve.

The "only in the Police hood" thing is an aspect that makes fakeclaim a real possibility for me. If scum needed to eliminate someone from "police" at a critical juncture with a fake guilty it would be the best kind of cover. Plus it's good cover for not investigating scummy people outside that hood. And I certainly don't see town in iDany's posting. I would have said that it's just as likely to be fake as real, but I think we're on the same page there.

[davesaz]

Pretty sure PK claimed no hood.

JSYK I'm normally a consumer of those summaries, not the one who makes them. There are occasional exceptions when I update one which is probably what you're remembering.
It's pretty far from solveable. AFAIK Tweet's list is accurate. I'll try to fill in a few tidbits that I can remember.

Gamma (?) claimed to be holding a key that can get him out of traps, and claimed to have given it to ABR. From an alignment standpoint ambiguous as hell.

There have been some flavor related claims. There is a father and son where one of them supposedly knows the other is town like a one-way mason or unconfirmable IC. One of the dead flipped "innocent wife" -- would a game also have an innocent son / innocent dad???

[davesaz]

I see I took too long to write that and PK's hoodlessness came out about 4 different ways.

[davesaz]

I see I took too long to write that and PK's hoodlessness came out about 4 different ways.

What is a reporter?

Given the discussion I've been assuming it is like variant 3 from Reporter but could be wrong.

[davesaz]

It would have been good to leave that question for Bingle.

[davesaz]

You could hydra with RC and then I could beat you up about none of the words being yours.

[davesaz]

Fire bugs me to no end but I can't tell if it's AI. I may bother to look at scum games to see.
People TRing someone for that kind of behavior really bugs me. I don't want "not doing shit" to be site meta for town.

Bingle's style matches meta but I suspect a little conclusion jumping there. There shouldn't be enough info for a logic solve, too many unknowns.

[davesaz]

No mechanics

Yet...

[davesaz]

Dave

decided not to

didn't get a chance to vote Momo

FTFY. Day 1 went from about L-4 to hammer while I was sleeping IIRC.

Day 2 started and ended without me even getting a chance to read. I want to scumread BM over that but it seemed like a perfectly reasonable case when I skimmed it. Today BM vs ABR turned me off completely. I hate 1v1s. I hate voting claimed PRs. I don't have any mechanical results that are +town to reveal.

You're absolutely right that I haven't done much. Where you're wrong is in thinking I'm scummy for that. I don't have much and I'm not going to try to push that "not much" over people who seem to have a decent idea of what to do. When I do have something (like Jigsaw's identity, that would be cool) I'll be all over it.

[davesaz]

No mechanics

Yet...

When I do have something (like Jigsaw's identity, that would be cool) I'll be all over it.

I think y'all need to pull your heads out of your asses. That way you'll be able to hear the quiet voice telling you to go somewhere else for a while.
I was trying to avoid the kind of attention that would put me into a trap, but nah that ain't going to last.

[davesaz]

When the point of my approach is to avoid revealing role information at all, it's kinda hard to do that.
If I had information that someone like

Drixx

for example isn't Jigsaw, it doesn't help with knowing if they're scum or not.
I was

Determined

to not give any clues that I had an important ability until the info was actually useful.
I can perhaps give enough information that someone may be able to confirm the capability, without revealing what else I might know.

[davesaz]

The "only in the Police hood" thing is an aspect that makes fakeclaim a real possibility for me. If scum needed to eliminate someone from "police" at a critical juncture with a fake guilty it would be the best kind of cover. Plus it's good cover for not investigating scummy people outside that hood. And I certainly don't see town in iDany's posting. I would have said that it's just as likely to be fake as real, but I think we're on the same page there.

Reminder for whomever missed my reaction to iDany claim.

[davesaz]

I've thought ABR was manipulating people all game. Scum makes sense with that.

[davesaz]

VOTE: Drixx

[davesaz]

I had this partially typed in my quick reply as of post 3281. Big RL interruption.

Really want to hear Bingle's result if any. A bunch of us know what he said he would do in the hood.

MT you said that extra traps would be coming, but from the mod's posts it doesn't look like that happened. Can you explain how you managed to escape a trap without having the consequences that you thought would happen?

[davesaz]

MT you said that extra traps would be coming, but from the mod's posts it doesn't look like that happened. Can you explain how you managed to escape a trap without having the consequences that you thought would happen?

Why is this something you're most curious about?

I'm not completely certain that it's not scum!you just skating away.
I mean good for town if you're town with a good explanation, not so good if you're scum on the way to a roflstomp.

[davesaz]

Morning Tweet - Escaped a trap, doesn't appear the stated negative consequences are true
Ircher - Gamma was Key holder, said he gave the key to ABR
VaultDweller - IC, Investigator {Bingle did not set N1/N2 traps, BM did not set N2/N3}
Bingle - 2 shot internal affairs, Innos on 2 flipped town right?
Eddie Cane - don't remember if he has claimed
davesaz - Investigation role that can detect godfathers.
Battle Mage - Don't remember claim, escaped

2

traps?, one of which gave 2 NKs
BBmolla - don't remember claim
pisskop - claimed to be trap immune, tried to use this ability to disable 3-person trap, unexpected result that killed the other two town in trap?
Titus (ABR) - ABR claimed "vanilla"
Firebringer - don't remember if there was a claim here

I have used two shots. I get some but not all role information.
Gamma/Ircher role (n1) is called key holder. I don't remember if the specific role has been mentioned.
I was aware that the key gets people out of traps, that it is essentially one shot, and that it can be
passed on.

Drixx role (n2) was Determined. You can find out I knew this by looking for determined in my iso.
I was a little surprised that Drixx never acknowledged it, or at least I didn't see it.
I was aware that the role allowed him to change someone else's action in a multi-player trap.
That seemed like it had both town and scum utility. For example if there were a trap where the players vote who to save and who to die, town could use it to essentially vig scum, where scum could use it to survive. That's the underlying reason I was OK with the drixx lynch but didn't push it myself. I was unsure of my ability to read him on posting. I thought that town!Drixx would either ask me what was up or confront me, either in main thread or hood, and left as much time as possible for that to happen.

Y'all scumreading me have had me in the nice position of being mislynchable enough to not get targeted.
I do have (limited) remaining shots. Same strategy as the TM game, maybe I'll tough it out in the future instead of going bonkers.

As for a solve, I'm working on it. We have to get this right.

[davesaz]

I see it took me long enough to write that, that Bingle finally found the results soft.

[davesaz]

Thanks, I have a (perhaps bad) tendency to type stuff up in the quick reply window, which makes it a lot more difficult to research and write at the same time.

[davesaz]

Here's what I think about the BM / MT / ABR triangle.

ABR and BM could be scum theater. If it is, it's scummy worthy win or lose. But I really don't think they are scum together. Why would they bother? Behaviorally either one could be scum trying to take control of the game. I see both of them as highly manipulative, which is the definition of what scum wants isn't it? I kinda think at least one of this pair has to be scum.

BM and MT could be scum together, with BM trying to get ABR mislynched and MT playing the white night. Both of them escaped traps, which I'd expect scum to be able to do. That makes it another kind of theater, a good/bad split. That would also make for a good long-term strategy. They both look active and solvey while ABR is around, and if/when ABR flips town at least MT looks good. The wrench in this pairing is why would both of them as scum together escape traps with scum+ effects. In particular why would MT claim those effects (and then unclaim them).

BM and MT both town with ABR scum is plausible. It is not at all unusual for two townies to have polar opposite reads on a player. This would match my personal reads. I have thought ABR was pushing weird stuff all along. BM seeing it and MT not wouldn't be far fetched. For this to be the case we kinda have to squint at the trap escapes. Perhaps Tweet's reply to my question about the negative effects explains that.

The remaining scenario that's reasonable with at least one scum in this group is BM town, ABR & MT scum. This path requires MT to have escaped a trap, claimed that doing so will give scum more traps, and then as scum not setting that extra trap. This seems like a mistake that a team would not let happen. And I think MT's explanation of why there weren't more traps makes more sense as town revealing the hidden info than it does as scum trying to cover up.

Of this set, ABR is most likely scum. I have not looked yet at what it would mean if all are town.

VOTE: Titus

[davesaz]

So it turns out the effort I put into making that vote appear reasonable was unnecessary. Oh well, it was good practice in any case.
Great synergy on the scumteam. We wanted to change targets last night but the traps had to be submitted before the hammer.
Bad luck in iDany/Bingle investigations was a big part of the outcome. Though one guilty inside the police hood probably would have shielded the other scum there.
Hitting an additional trap immune / key / whatever would have dragged it out too.

I think a lot of town had good individual reads and instincts, and we had to play them against each other just enough to not end up on the bottom of the readlists of a majority.

[davesaz]

BTW this has been nommed and seconded for Paperback. The best time for nominations related to a game is while you're still thinking about it.

[davesaz]

I was thinking, aside from arsonist type roles that's probably a record for the most carnage from a single set of orders.