Jigsaw's Revenge - Game Over

[GuiltyLion]

happy Friday everybody!

VOTE: Almost50

[GuiltyLion]

Gamma why do I always scumread you

[GuiltyLion]

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

[GuiltyLion]

Gamma are you ignoring me?

I also disagree with you GB, I don't see Farside's push on Xtoxm as "framing it as a scumslip", that seems like an uncharitable way to interpret her post and it's not difficult for me to imagine her response coming from town

[GuiltyLion]

But the comment does imply that Xtoxm thinks farside is town. the possibly questionable point there is that farside says Xtoxm "knows" she is town, but combined with "implies" I still see her post as directed pressure rather than explicitly accusing him of a scumslip. In my mind, "framing it as a scum slip" would be a lot more direct, like "you slipped, you gave away that you know I'm town", etc.

And I didn't say it sounds like it's coming from town, I said it's not hard for me to imagine it coming from town. I don't see a particularly good reason to scumread farside for it, that doesn't mean I'm townreading her because of that comment. I generally assume everyone is likely town by default.

I think the question is much better served to you - why do you think it's

unlikely

that such a post could come from town? If she is town, why wouldn't she be suspicious of someone assuming her alignment?

[GuiltyLion]

I am feeling Battle Mage, GeorgeBailey, pisskop, momo, BBMolla as some solid D1 townreads.

I especially like BM's vote on DanyBoy and I want to add another

VOTE: iDanyBoy

very little engagement from him and I agree 223 is a bizarre post, the assumption that scum fake claims are flavor linked to the PTs feels angle-shooty in a way that I don't think is likely to come from town. It feels more likely to be an excuse to push a mislynch later - 'they claimed [x] role and they're not in [y] hood' - and less like something DanyBoy genuinely believes is useful in finding scum.

I'm also not in any hoods so if any of you all have a recruit or something get me in on some neighborhood action cause I wanna be in there

[GuiltyLion]

I could also lynch Elsa though I want a danyBoy wagon more right now

I'm still gut scumreading Gamma too

[GuiltyLion]

His reads seem phoned in. Why is GeorgeBailey a solid D1 townread? It doesn't make sense.

if it doesn't make sense to you, why not ask me about it?

I've played with George a handful of times now, including a couple full games where he was both scum and town, and I've read him correctly in each. The fact that he was trying to meta off of my recent scumgame in order to townread me this early is a move I find less likely to come from scum, he would have no real incentive to lay the foundation for that read so early and especially in a way that would make it harder for him to walk back later if I become a viable mislynch.

I also liked his post 189 towards you, shows he was thinking critically about your set-up spec and willing to push back instead of sheeping you trying to play town leader.

[GuiltyLion]

Bettlejuice!
BettleJuice!

This is the second time you responded to a post that clearly tells me you are not reading the thread and you seem to respond only to your name.

I don't like this post, Vecna has been commenting and posting more than most players in the game so far and I don't feel at all like he's lurking and only Beetlejuicing in when needed. Bad push

so farside do you tr me?
what changed between start of game where u sr me to influence that?
i dont feel the one post i made in the mean time was particularly ai

also a good point

[GuiltyLion]

I also would like more direct engagement about DanyBoy's 223 and my thoughts about it. Momo/BM seem in agreement with that post being scummy, Morning Tweet feels the opposite. It stands out to me as one of the most indicative posts so far in the game (certainly more indicative than Drixx's pushes on BM/Vecna/momo lol) and I am wary that more people don't feel inclined to voice an opinion on it, especially from ABR/davesaz who are both currently voting me and shading me in one form or another.

[GuiltyLion]

Explain how not having a read on you is shading.

Guilty Lion and George seem a little empty

. I've seen the same thing in their town game so it's not enough to go on for a read.

why is your RVS vote still on me dave? do you believe I am the scummiest player in the game?

that's fair though I missed your comment in 231. I don't think it quite addresses the root of my issue with Dany's post though - why does he assume scum
a) have fakeclaims?
b) have fakeclaims that are flavor tied to a hood that they're not in? Especially if we believe there are likely to be scum in the hoods?

Scum share a PT and if they have fakeclaims, they've shared those too. So it feels odd to assume there's a scum with a fakeclaim that isn't aware of a hood with another fakeclaim - the only scenario where that would catch scum is if there's an all-town hood with flavor that scum don't know about.

It would also be kinda just bad game design from a mod perspective IMO. "Here's a fakeclaim, but town will catch you mechanically if you claim it".

so I really don't see danyBoy's thought process as valid here, and I feel it betrays an inside knowledge of fake claims and hood flavors.

[GuiltyLion]

What about Guilty, Gamma?

It's not much but his scumread on me seems off, like he seems like he's not engaging enough for how he's treating me

I could be enticed to vote him but for now I'm good to stay where I am.

Seriously why is Dany catching so many votes? I don't think his PT thought is super weird or bad.

lmao

"he's not engaging me!"

doesn't bother to respond at all to my primary push and scumread this game or engage with me about it

@Gamma

- please read my 309 and 369 and let me know why you think DanyBoy's comment is town indicative in response to those points.

I also find it suspicious that you talk about me not engaging you as reason for thinking I'm scum, yet ignore my thoughts and engagements with lots of other players in this game, including danyBoy

ABR - your lack of any commentary about this topic is noted.

[GuiltyLion]

and yes A50 I confirm I am a lone soldier, not in any hoods.

[GuiltyLion]

If your bored you can do a psychoanalysis on me or someone elsa.

Fun times.

Elsa - given that ABR is aggressively pushing for my lynch, why is your vote still on me? Do you think I am scum?

Scum share a PT and if they have fakeclaims, they've shared those too. So it feels odd to assume there's a scum with a fakeclaim that isn't aware of a hood with another fakeclaim - the only scenario where that would catch scum is if there's an all-town hood with flavor that scum don't know about.

It would also be kinda just bad game design from a mod perspective IMO. "Here's a fakeclaim, but town will catch you mechanically if you claim it".

One of you, me and Danny is misunderstanding the argument (I didn't comments on it before though). I think the idea was something like a hood of cartoon characters (say) and then someone claims to be Roger Rabbit and they have never posted in that hood. THAT is suspicious. Why would it matter if they also know there is another hood of Super Heros? If they claim that instead they still haven't posted in that hood as well.

But like, again, here are all of my points tho:
1) Why does Dany assume scum have fake claims to begin with? That is not always a given
2) If scum have fake claims, in all odds they will know that there is a Cartoon Characters hood. Why would one of them then claim Roger Rabbit if they are not in that hood? Why not use one of their other fake claims from the pool of 5 that they have?
3) If scum do not know about the cartoon characters, because it is all town, why would the mod give scum a fakeclaim that is immediately not safe to claim?

put this all together - do you really think danyBoy thought this was a useful way to catch scum? It reads to me like a comment that scum make to blend in and pretend to be contributing, that gives away that he knows of flavored hoods and fakeclaims. It's not something that strikes me as a town thought process. Plus, like I said, it could also give scum an excuse to push town players on the basis of 'flavor' if townies aren't in [x] or [y] hood for whatever reason.

[GuiltyLion]

I don't think Dany's comment is particularly town indicative minus I guess being maybe a little insightful, but I really don't get what's wrong with it. As for not participating it's been so long since he's played idk his playstyle now but I think he was a bit of a quiet thinker type before.

This is pretty frustrating to me since I laid out numerous problems with it and all you can say is "I really don't get it" - what in my posts did you not get or what did you disagree with? What would help you for me to try to explain?

As for not engaging with you you've only thrown out gut as a reason as far as I can tell, so how am I supposed to effectively engage with that?

Yes, okay, you're salty that I scumread you. I've also interacted and made comments on many other things, but you don't engage with these at all and complain I'm not engaging with you. Are you really not able to see anything potentially town!indicative or something you want to press on in all the other thoughts/reads I've given outside of my couple of mentions towards you?

[GuiltyLion]

@a50 - regarding farside, she did acknowledge this potential flaw in ABR's "statistics" "reasoning":

If that list is based on those that have claimed not to be part of a PT.....don't you think everyone should post if there are part of one or not first?

I think it'd be kinda scummy to say this and yet not claim if you're not in any of the hoods, do you agree? Based on that I think farside is probably in a hood.

[GuiltyLion]

By the way that was in regards to ABR's willing to lynch list. I wasn't sure if he was doing it based on those in a hood or not, that was why I asked if everyone should claim.

I understand that...? I was saying to a50 we could probably assume you were in a hood because of you making that comment and also not saying that you weren't in a hood.

[GuiltyLion]

EBWOP - while also not saying that you weren't in a hood.

[GuiltyLion]

By the way that was in regards to ABR's willing to lynch list. I wasn't sure if he was doing it based on those in a hood or not, that was why I asked if everyone should claim.

I understand that...? I was saying to a50 we could probably assume you were in a hood because of you making that comment and also not saying that you weren't in a hood.

Why is it scummy then? He's scum hunting outside the hood.

I'm saying YOU would have been scummy if you weren't in a hood, and you had asked ABR that same question without providing the info that you weren't in a hood.

reading is fundamental, no?

[GuiltyLion]

2) If scum have fake claims, in all odds they will know that there is a Cartoon Characters hood. Why would one of them then claim Roger Rabbit if they are not in that hood? Why not use one of their other fake claims from the pool of 5 that they have?

The idea is to get them to

post in the hood if they are in it

. If they are not in it then their claim would probably be different (definition of a

safe

fake claim).

As for why assume fake claim are readily available to scum, it's because if flavour is indicative of alignment this

has to be the case

. If alignments are randomly assigned though then there is no common hood flavour to begin with. Dany was talking under the assumption flavour was

related to alignments

.

hmmm actually I guess I can actually see the comment possibly making sense from a town flavored character in a flavored hood. if danyBoy can confirm that that's what he is then I guess that solves like 90% of my issues with his post, maybe? though there is still a questionable assumption there that the scum in PTs have a fakeclaim that is also flavor linked to their PT. What if they had an entirely separate fakeclaim?

I'm not "salty" about anything, why do you say that? As for town!indicative things you've done idk rn, but like you seem awfully hot and bothered by my vote here. When it comes to Dany I just don't think it's scummy that he blurted out a thought like he did, it could be a scum thing but it's not scummy, there's no solid scum motivation that outweighs the posibble town motivations for it rn ime.

eh fair I probably added tone to your post that wasn't there. But I am happy to admit that I am hot and bothered by votes on me, do you think that's alignment indicative? At the time I was a leading wagon, and I'm trying to find whether there are scum voting me. That will be useful info for all of us later.

[GuiltyLion]

Votecount 1.6

Elsa Jay (5) - pisskop, Almost50, iDanyboy, farside22, davesaz
GuiltyLion (3) - Elsa Jay, Albert B. Rampage, Gamma Emerald
iDanyboy (3) - Battle Mage, momo, BBmolla
Vecna (3) - GuiltyLion, Drixx, Hectic
farside22 (2) - xtoxm, GeorgeBailey
Drixx (2) - Vecna, Blake Belladonna
Battle Mage (1) - Morning Tweet

Not voting (2) - Pine, VaultDweller

(expired on 2020-05-01 15:10:00) remain until day end

With 21 players alive, it takes 11 to reach a majority.

"Most people are so ungrateful to be alive, but not you, not any more..."

@MOD - a few of these VCs have me voting Vecna when I was actually voting danyBoy, can you fix? Thanks

I kinda like Dany's re-entry back into the thread. I'm not feeling scum there as much, also given A50's explanation of his post.

I also think both Vecna and Elsa Jay are town.

@MorningTweet - honestly, I went back and reread BM's ISO and I can't really justify why I had him so hard town earlier. I think it was because we mindmelded on the first reply to George's push on farside, and then the danyBoy suspicion. But when I read it altogether and look at how he's defending himself against various pressure, I can imagine it being scum.

VOTE: BattleMage

some other slots I'm still not feeling town are Rampage and davesaz

[GuiltyLion]

oh and Rampage had that line in there about "maybe GL and davesaz are bussing" and that was entirely illogical, feels like a subtle way to set me up if davesaz flips red

[GuiltyLion]

@momo - what are your thoughts on Battle Mage and that wagon?

[GuiltyLion]

quick attempt at full 20 player reads

townreads - VaultDweller, Morning Tweet, Vecna, George, a50, BBMolla
don't want to lynch currently and would say town but less confident than first tier - Danyboy, Xtoxm, Elsa Jay, pisskop, momo, Blake
fairly undecided, could see either way - farside, Drixx, Pine, Hectic
scummy - Battle Mage, Rampage, davesaz, Gamma

[GuiltyLion]

coukd i ask you for some words on your townreads on george, a50 amd BBmolla?

Likewise the scumread on dave?

overall my thoughts are quite similar

George I explained earlier in 362, I've had no issues with any of his posts since then either, I disagreed with the Vecna vote but his presentation and following up on it - leading to ultimately a reversal - felt genuine and town-motivated.

a50 felt pure to me in engaging with me over the danyBoy scumread, I also thought his pushback on ABR didn't feel like S-S and I think ABR is way scummier in that exchange. That said, when I went back in reread it again to write this up, I guessss it's not impossible to be theater. I might lower him to that second tier bc I don't think my reasons for townreading him are all that solid when I challenge myself on it, he basically just felt town-motivated in what he was doing but I can't rule out it being scum aiming to pick up town cred.

BBMolla I align a lot with his reads, the early ABR scumread and townread on me strike me as more likely town's Original Thoughts^TM rather than reads that help a scum agenda, 385 and 600 also feel like fundamentally honest posts.

Dave scumread is a combo of - didn't like his reads in 360 both in terms of the conclusions and how he formed them, I don't like the way he's taken swipes at my slot and Xtoxm for activity, and his spot on the EJ wagon fits the profile of where I suspect scum would try to jump on. Also, his interactions with ABR strike me as decent odds of S-S - says ABR is town in 360 then does some soft-ball engagement in 601 and then dismisses a point for scum!ABR in 638.

Speaking of 638, I don't like that post in general, he's agreeing with me that it seems like a scum!ABR comment, only I'm the buddy instead and it's meant to set up davesaz for a later lynch? Why is ABR was initially trying so hard to wagon me then, did he really decide to open the game by bussing me? And if it was just a reaction test then why agree with me in the first place?
I can maybe see 638 making more sense if the first sentence is meant to just be a joke, but it's not clear to me from the post whether it's joking or not.

[GuiltyLion]

I think ABR pushing Vecna but never voting him is scummy and would like to know if anyone agrees or disagrees. Its the strongest read I have so would like to get some discussion on it.

I agree with this, ABR's vote on me has felt extremely 'sticky', like he decided on it early on and refuses to see or engage with any evidence of me being town. I would expect a town player to at least have some doubt regarding my alignment and spend some time more seriously pursuing other leads, especially if they're so bored/against the current game state

[GuiltyLion]

I got a townread on Pine out of the last few pages

a few people are asking about BM case - I feel his engagement with a lot of early game content was super light and perhaps it's due to his V/LA but he seemed to stop being involved as soon as the actual game picked up - this is a patten I see from scum often. At the time of me voting him I believed two of the other main bandwagons (Vecna and myself) were bad wagons, and I had just re-evaluated on danyBoy (the other, other wagon, which I had been pushing), so the BM votes felt to me like the best chance to follow along and find scum.

Funny enough Drixx is one of those slots for me that he was referring to as "you don't like going down that road unless you're sure", I def agree he's been overdramatic and making things more about himself than they actually are or need to be, but that's my experience of how he plays regardless of alignment, and I don't know if anything I've seen has felt like it moved the needle on him being more likely to be scum. It does feel weird that he's avoiding the BM wagon especially after I reversed my read on him, but I almost feel scum!Drixx would see it as easy to hop onto a town!BM by this point and not take that route, so either they're scum together or Drixx is townie for that.

MT bleeding town for me by this point. I'd also join a davesaz wagon.
p-edit: let's do it

VOTE: davesaz

[GuiltyLion]

A50 and MT also posting elsewhere on site.

Good for you to notice. Did you also notice I posted in here less than two hours before your post??

Regardless of him missing that, I think actually going to look up players and venting about it is usually town indicative

this post is a perfect example of why Vecna is town btw

scum almost never has incentive to post this, especially cause I don't think he's really needed to buddy up to ABR

I think I agree with it, it's not impossible that scum!ABR does that but I do also think that's a decent indicator of town and it's making me less confident of an ABR scumread

[GuiltyLion]

here's the simple Dave case, he has 47 posts at the moment and these are his only two votes:

VOTE: GuiltyLion

I know essentially nothing about the flavor, hopefully that's not too much of an impediment.

I don't think it's too much to ask, to explain a read.

VOTE: Elsa Jay

I don't know what your idea of "nothing suspicious" is, but when I reread your ISO it turned up to be almost everything suspicious. Including the comment about trying not to be.

[GuiltyLion]

I'm looking to prevent a toxic gamestate, which is a very realistic possibility in this scenario. My read has no relevance to this.

what good is "preventing a toxic game state" if dave is scum and we are unable to lynch him?

as a Dave-voter, I solemnly swear I will try not to make it toxic.

[GuiltyLion]

I currently have 54 posts (this is my 55th) and I only voted once. Does that make me scum?

I mean, it could! I think looking at the votes on players and why people are scumreading their scum reads is one of the most effective ways of distinguishing who is trying to genuinely sort vs who is coasting and blending, and I don't see enough in dave's ISO vis-a-vis scumreads and explanation for those scumreads for me to feel comfortable concluding that he's trying to solve. I have/had some other reasons for thinking that you are trying to solve, but at the end of the day this point kinda just makes me townread you less, not scumread Dave less.

Many times I've caught scum by just ISOing them and looking at who/when they've voted and why, and voting out the people who are posting a lot but not actually pushing many players by way of vote.

Based on MY experience with dave, he is more likely town than scum here.

What has Dave done in this game that he's more likely to do as town and less likely to do as scum?

Furthermore, pressure doesn't really make him yield. He plays the way he wants to and will fight to death for his own view.

I'm not trying to make him yield or sort him based on his reaction, I'm trying to create a wagon that has a good chance of flipping scum at the end of the day.

[GuiltyLion]

A50 I just reread your ISO in combination with Dave and I don't see why you townread him? You had him in a POE pool based off of who had not claimed hood/no hood, then took him off the list when ABR pushed you on whether you'd vote Dave. You've had some conversations back and forth with each other but they don't seem to push either of you in either direction. Dave said he was iffy on your slot. Why are you townreading him?

[GuiltyLion]

no, I'm not going to read a 314 page game where Dave was town and try to find similarities myself that make him automatically town in this game. Speak to me about what he has done

in this game

that makes him town.

[GuiltyLion]

although I guess if your point is just, he didn't vote much on D1, point taken. I still don't trust players who don't vote much on D1 in general, but maybe that's not especially indicative in this case

[GuiltyLion]

Honestly though, reading back on Elsa's posts, I still scumread him for feeling weird and off-tone; I just don't like the reasons you're using to scumread him for.

so do you think both of them are scum together or what?

I'm trying to chew on this thought process here - my initial gut reaction was that it seemed plainly disingenuous to push A50 while saying "I also scumread your main scum read, but just for different reasons", but then the more I thought about it the more I'm thinking scum probably doesn't make this up because it's so on the surface inconsistent?

can I get crowd opinions on this one? I'm entirely unsure how I feel about it

[GuiltyLion]

I'm kinda feeling aimless right now. I'm having a hard time feeling confident about the blocs of players on each wagon and no individual scumread that feels strong enough to merit a dedicated push. It's been a while since I've been in a game this large, it's a lot harder than 9p and 13p that I'm used to. I'm very wishy washy on a lot of key slots like Danyboy/davesaz/Hectic/Xtoxm and that's making me feel indecisive, sometimes I talk myself into reading them one way but then a few days later I can't hold onto that read as strongly anymore. and there haven't been big wagons to really make things more clear. I do like Battle Mage's entry back into the game.

gonna reread and see if I can find a vote I feel good about. I feel all I've got are a few solid active townreads (Vecna, Pine, Morning Tweet, A50, probably ABR too at this point) but they're all pushing different things and I don't entirely agree with any of them which makes it hard to sheep and feel good about it. farside is feeling better and better to me. I agree with Vecna that finding out that Blake is Ank weakens a townread there, she's usually more involved than this from my experience/memory.

[GuiltyLion]

I think I'm back to this

VOTE: iDanyboy

I'm scum reading BM/Albert then just above null towards scum is Momo,pisskop and farside.

I think ABR pushing Vecna but never voting him is scummy and would like to know if anyone agrees or disagrees. Its the strongest read I have so would like to get some discussion on it.

VOTE: Hectic
Not a bad wagon.

these were some of the (admittedly few) reads given by iDanyboy prior to his vote on Hectic. At the time of voting Hectic, it was being championed by ABR, who danyBoy previously called his strongest scumread, and momo, who Danyboy called 'just above null towards scum', and davesaz who iDanyboy hasn't commented on at all. Why is this 'not a bad wagon' in that case? What caused him to re-evaluate so massively on ABR, and why was this not indicated to the thread?

and the more I think on it the more I think Hectic is town. I really don't think he'd be so sloppy as scum to take the angle he took with A50, disagreeing with his scumread over reasoning to scumread a mutual scumread. That feels too disorganized to me to be an artificial thought process.

[GuiltyLion]

"Why else would we not know our hoodmates?"

This post of pisskop is entirely consistent with him not being in a hood. Pisskop is either lying consistently or is town.

You should look at Hectic AGAIN.

I feel you're implying there's some slip regarding Hectic giving away knowledge of hood info, and so I'm trying to reread with that in mind, but I'm not seeing it so will likely need this explained to me lol

I don't know if it's because I'm not in any hoods or not that makes it hard for me to follow you here

[GuiltyLion]

BM I was gonna wait for pisskop to address this but - I agree with you he was falsely implying he was in a hood, but I don't agree that's necessarily scummy. When you pointed out the contradiction I thought to myself he may have just been trying to maintain ambiguity about whether or not he was in a hood to hide that info from scum.

[GuiltyLion]

heyyee so about those wagons

I think there's definitely a lot of town on hectic but im not impressed by the "reasoning", if you can call it that. forgive me if i missed where it is, i checked ABR, A50, and like someone else's isos to try n find it

BM has suddenly revealed himself as town so that's cool

i think I learn a lot more from a momo flip than a hectic flip. i do find it interesting that hectic had somewhat of a read 180 on momo, but i also had that townlean on momo and never went to really reevaluate the slot so i can see it as a town move

VOTE: momo

this is exactly how I feel - the way ABR is pushing Hectic makes me wonder if there's some kind of scum slip there relating to hoods but I read over Hectic's ISO several times and don't see it.

I still don't like Danyboy's Hectic vote and Elsa Jay's is bad too. Badfeels from the wagon.

I also didn't like Momo's interactions with Battle Mage, saying he's "lining up lynches" and calculated-therefore-scummy for posting an evolving reads list both strike me as uncharitable/reachy pushes.

I can see a world where Momo is town and I can see a world where Hectic is scum but I'm feeling Momo over Hectic unless ABR has an especially compelling point on something I'm not seeing

VOTE: Momo

[GuiltyLion]

Ideally before night I'd like Pine/BM to confirm that this was the plan and that they side with ABR here relating to Momo's 1337 but generally this all feels right and makes sense. I think Blake and Elsa look most bad here in terms of associations. I can seeeee why Vecna looks bad too but I kinda still think he's town bc my townread on him was so strong prior, though the sudden pivot to Gamma was a bit odd maybe a "let's set up a future bus" situation if it's like momo/Vecna/Gamma. I was trying to draw attention to Gamma many times this game bc Gamma feels heckin scummy to me still and didn't get any support from Vecna until now once other wagons are a lot more likely to go through

p-edit momo why would you WANT to make it to LYLO as town lol

[GuiltyLion]

wait what
isnt this game confirmed no 3ps

Yeah

wait then ABR why the laugh emoji here, I thought this was you laughing at Momo's claim?

[GuiltyLion]

momo why the flip flop on BM now? Yesterday you seemed to think he was scummy

[GuiltyLion]

Momo, why word it so confusingly and not clarify that in the first post? Also, kindly explain what a fucking Trap is. Is that the gimmick here? Are we dealing with a team of Poisoners?

the more I think about this the more this is a super scummy post regardless of Momo's alignment, btw

I actually don't think I want to assume "there must be a scum in the hood" regarding the Survivor group, if momo townflips I don't think that has to point to scum in the other three. It's good to consider but I'm not convinced it's necessarily true.

[GuiltyLion]

ah okay fair point, I'm not really considering flavor at all, I've only seen the original Saw and I think Saw 2 or 3 one time.

[GuiltyLion]

another quick n' dirty GL all 20 players reads list

Towny Town Members of Town: ABR, Battle Mage, Farside, Hectic, Morning Tweet, Pine, Vecna
Not The Towniest Members of Town, but Likely Town All The Same: a50, BBMolla, davesaz, Drixx, George
Not the Scummiest Scums, Maybe Some Town Here: iDanyBoy, pisskop, Vault Dweller, Xtoxm
Scums That Must Be Eliminated: Blake, Elsa Jay, Gamma, Momo

[GuiltyLion]

@Gamma - what are your thoughts on momo? These are the only times you've commented on him as far as I can tell:

My personal experience with momo is purely lurking from him but if he wishes to change that I’ll welcome it with open arms.

Also my autocorrect is spazzing out rn.

I'm really not liking this line of thought from Elsa Jay. This game is 16:5. We know that. It's mod-confirmed fact. This implies that there is one scum team and I agree with pk when he says at this point, it's almost irrelevant if there's a traitor. EJ is doing setup analysis, trying to appear as if he is contributing to town but it's through a series of posts that don't actually give town meaningful information. When one of the lines in the mod post is "confirmed 16 vs 5" there's no need to get into all of this.

VOTE: Elsa Jay

I really like this as well as Momo’s posting in general.

[GuiltyLion]

Gamma Emerald
VaultDweller
Vecna
iDanyboy
GeorgeBailey
Drixx
Blake Belladonna

VD - IHaveNoClue. A nonentity can be roped for good measure, but only if there isnt a stronger lynch out there.
Vecna - Townread. Will not do.
Dany - Mild town lean, nothing to make me resist his lynch.
GB - Who?
Drixx - Scumread. Didnt like how the felt flittery Day 1, but Im the last person to say I should be townread for being concrete.
Blake - Mild Scum Vibes. Is Blake the kind of person to play an alt differently than a main?

I like this direct response and I wanna similarly jump in with my thoughts on these slots here too, haven't caught up on the rest of D2 yet, this is in order of current preference to lynch

Gamma - super scummy, would lynch in a heartbeat
Dany - I could easily vote, Hectic vote was bad, doesn't feel transparent, doesn't seem to be engaged in most lines of the game
Drixx - Yeah given the flips/events of D1 this slot feels a lot worse. Weird resistance to pushing BM, shaded Momo but seemed more interested in pushing Vecna. Pine ripped into him p good at one point too
Blake - Don't like Blake's hectic vote either, and I think pisskop's question is good. I remember Ank being so much more involved with games I've had with her as town, the detachment here feels strange.
VD - I'm similarly null with pisskop on this slot, could lynch it but I'm not especially high on it being good odds of a scum lynch, someone I'd want to be much more involved in today's Discourse
GB - I still kinda think he's town for the early game, probably don't want to vote it today, though I do feel he's been less and less involved
Vecna - Agreed with pisskop, I think Vecna is town, not gonna vote here

[GuiltyLion]

I'm a bit busy, which is why my posting frequency is so low right now. As mentioned I also haven't read the last part of D2, so I can't give any real reads. Because of this fact I decided to ISO the most voted player today and see if I agree with their scuminess. If I did, I'd vote them. If not, I'd do the same for the next highest voted player, until I find someone who I agree is scummy.

this feels like it would be a bold approach from scum

[GuiltyLion]

what's the full list of not-in-a-PT? I remember ABR had one early game it was like me, Vecna, Xtoxm, Molla? then didn't a50 and pisskop claim no hood as well? Honestly that seems like a fairly town list and not best odds of finding scum - I agree there's likely at least one scum there but there's no gimmes. I'd have to talk myself into voting like a50 or pisskop or Xtoxm and I have decent reasons for thinking all of them are town. Probably at this point if I had to, I'd go for a50 with the over-emphasis on Traitor spec - maybe crumbing traitor himself.

[GuiltyLion]

I can't see A50 doing that as jigsaw. Jigsaw is a mastermind, someone clever, strategic. You were quick out of the blocks here - could YOU be Jigsaw?

wait why would Jigsaw's character in the flavor/movies be at all related to A50's play in this game? I don't remember anything about my character and I'm not exactly trying to role-play as them.

I think if A50 knows that a traitor exists he might spend day 1 trying to frame/set up a town slot as the traitor and use that as an easy narrative to push them, that's all. He's seemed more focus on traitor-spec in general compared to most players, no? Regardless it's why I'd look into him first of that group of 7, not a case of why he's definitively scum here.

[GuiltyLion]

with Xtoxm, I have respect for his skill as a player and I feel his d1 play was so disengaged / bad associatively that it makes him less likely to be scum? I could see myself ultimately sheeping there but the lack of involvement and vanity farside push doesn't seem like a great plan/scheme to set him up to go far here. A50 feels more like someone who may be scum trying to deepwolf

[GuiltyLion]

again I feel I am missing some important info happening in hoods but if BM/ABR say let's go Xtoxm I'm good with that for today. Is it worth anything to wait for like Drixx/Blake to check in? ABR also said he wanted to lay out a plan.

VOTE: Xtoxm

[GuiltyLion]

@Almost - how are you getting L-1 (8 votes)? I count 6 lol

also that 1657 is the first post that gave me town vibes from Gamma

[GuiltyLion]

I also think now that I'm considering it - Xtoxm lurky/disengaged D1 play may have been an intentional strategy to bait a cop check and get inno'd, giving him towncred/authority to lead later in the game - maybe assuming a lot of how scum!Xtoxm would play tho

at the very least knowing that you can't be investigated would give you less of a reason to try on D1

[GuiltyLion]

The contents of your neighborhood is very important to determine whether Albert B. Rampage is town or not.

are they really? I'm good with assuming ABR is town for now until/unless he gets to like LYLO or something

[GuiltyLion]

Nothing he has done outside of the neighborhood is town

that's quite a claim

[GuiltyLion]

oh boy

imagine being Drixx coming back from V/LA tomorrow and seeing the game has advanced two lynches since your last post lmao

[GuiltyLion]

we forgot to get the info from Vecna though :/

[GuiltyLion]

One thing I don't understand is how it's determined who gets put into the games. Mine started within 15-20 minutes of the day 2 end which feels too fast for scum to be making decisions based on the day play. I do agree scum can likely monitor though - I was put into a PT to play the game and told to submit my choice in the PT.

I'd like to wait and hear about MT's game and what happened before I describe how mine went down.

[GuiltyLion]

I still kinda want to just lynch iDanyBoy or Gamma in a vacuum, they're my strongest independent scumreads.

Yesterday I felt that Blake was scum but given that ABR/BM are both still alive, I'm a little less eager to jump to a quick conclusion there. I'm also not sure it's something that has to be resolved today.

[GuiltyLion]

I have to think the people placed in games is random or based on something arbitrary like wagon position or something, or at the very least decided by scum prior to the EOD. Because it's also odd Vecna is widely townread, claimed info, and wasn't put in a game, I would think if he's town he'd be a decently high priority kill for scum

[GuiltyLion]

Makes me think scum is incapable of killing us in any way other than playing games. If scum had access to a night kill, then Cakes wouldn't have told us that farside was the one who shot A50. That's my thinking anyway

so, I share a lot of your thought process MT, and I agree with all your reasoning here, and I still think you're a solid townread.

That said - if scum have to put us in games to kill us, including solo games, doesn't that start to clear a lot of players if that's the only avenue scum have to kill? I would think at some point scum would need to put themselves in games, which is why I'm curious/waiting to hear how you survived your game with no apparent negative effects. I will def explain mine as well today, but hilariously sucks for scum lol if they thought they would kill both of us and we both avoided it and cleared ourselves as town in the process

[GuiltyLion]

Jeeezus there's a lot to catch up on. I've read/skimmed along up to this point, but I need to deepthink/digest and reflect before I start responding to a lot in more detail, I aim to do that over the course of tonight but gonna be in bits and pieces probably and it's gonna take time. I also plan to claim my role and the events of my game tonight, so stay tuned for that!

Here's where my head is generally at right now though - I have really good feelings about a townbloc/towncore in Morning Tweet, GeorgeBailey, Vecna. I would probably bet the game on these slots being town.

I think ABR is a distraction and likely town.

I want(ed?) to believe BM is also town and just misguided/confbiased, but the longer this 1v1 with ABR goes on the less confident I am in that. I am kinda thinking Blake is town here actually, especially if BM is scum, but I'm not super convinced about it and need to dig more through all her content.

There's a lot of nully/meh slots that can't all be scum but I really don't feel all that great about either way. Davesaz, Drixx, pisskop, Molla. Of these I think I TR pisskop the most, but he could easily be competent scum cruising in this game state rn. These slots need to be forced to engage/participate today to set us up to read them correctly later, and this current game state is not contributing to that at all.

I really don't like iDanyboy or Gamma at all. I plan to case/push that but if my strong TRs (Vecna/MT/George) are all on board I really think we should just champion a Dany lynch today. I view that slot as the best odds of scum from almost every angle I can think of.

[GuiltyLion]

oh and VaultDweller town too by Vecna's claim. Which is a super convenient slot to town clear as he is also kind of a non-entity so far

[GuiltyLion]

I'd really appreciate if you all would cut down on the 1v1ing, it's really anti-town no matter your alignments. I am gonna eat dinner now and I'm worried there's going to be 5-6 new pages to read by the time I return to thread

[GuiltyLion]

so a few fundamental flaws with the initial case and why I'm not convinced by it, chunked into a few posts for readability:

1. PT Behaviour on Day 1 and post-lynch:

I noted at outset of Day 2 his behaviour in PT is exactly what I would expect from him as scum (and only Momo's behaviour made me think he was clean).
He was initially not keen to throw suspicion on others in the hood, and just wanted everyone to follow him. He just 'assumed' Momo and I were town, and only suggested Pine was scum when Pine wouldn't toe the line. ABR was non-committal on my Momo scum-read, and didn't engage with it until after the flip. After the flip, he was excited and jubilant, and claimed credit for the lynch.

This doesn't match with what you said yesterday:

I mean, ABR is in a hood with me (and formerly Momo-scum), I can tell you with absolute confidence that the way Momo acted towards ABR in that PT, is NOT the way scum acts towards a partner. Is it conceivably possible ABR is scum? Yes. Is it remotely likely? No. Should we be discussing it today? Obviously not.

You don't mention Dany at all, despite the fact that he has been a big focal point today. Instead, I assume he is your unnamed 2nd favourite lynch for today?

Also note the last bit here ^ shading Blake on not pushing Dany hard enough? Good to remember if/when Dany flips red.

You also doubled down on this when pressed by Blake:

Battle Mage.

Answer the question.

There's no question here. Let me ask you something instead - how do you think I could have confidence in anything you say when you don't read my posts properly and with due respect? when you have not engaged with the trends and key issues in the game? and when you are trying to waste time and obfuscate affairs by throwing shade at people who we are clearly not lynching today?

This conversation is a waste of time. I know you are smarter than this, and so I have to believe there's a chance you are scum protecting Xtoxm, but I'll lynch him first to find out.

[question above referring to why BM is sure momo/ABR are not buddies]

Boy, sure is a shame you didn't elaborate on why ABR/momo could not possibly be partners yesterday!

EVERYONE PLEASE READ THE ABOVE, IT IS IMPORTANT. REST OF THESE POINTS ARE LESS IMPORTANT (but still you should read them)

2. Flavour:

As noted in my setup theory, I think Amanda Young is highly likely in the game, as a survivor. ABR has instead claimed, in the PT, that he is Corbett Denlon - the child of 2 confirmed townies. She was not a prominent feature of the film franchise, so I'm not sure she would be a character in the game, especially given both her parents were. She was also never subject to Jigsaw's traps, so I wouldn't really call her a 'survivor' at all, and she'd be way way down on the list of likely survivor characters compared to Amanda Young. Gut says it MUST be a fakeclaim.

So the argument here (built off the setup spec), is basically that ABR's claim cannot be true because she was not a prominent feature of the film franchise, and that she doesn't belong in the survivor group here. It's already been covered by MT in 1986, I'm not convinced by this and I generally don't support flavor cases to begin with, the mod gives fakeclaims so by definition scum cannot/should not be caught by virtue of flavor claim alone.

3. PT Behaviour Night 1 onwards:

During Night 1, ABR suddenly became frantically active in the PT, having neglected it for a while before that (me and Pine were both stuck in traps at this point of course). He claimed his role and flavour, and also claimed that Xtoxm was a "mailman" (incidentally, not what he flipped), and then gave the story I repeated yesterday in order to make me suspect Xtoxm, which on reflection may not have been true. He was not keen on my suggestion of lynching those not in a PT, which suggests if ABR flips scum, there is some more credence to it. I made it clear that I didn't trust him (by not reciprocating his claim, or sharing info about what happened to me in my trap), and since then he has become very angry and aggressive in the PT.

Unfortunately none of us can verify this, so, not sure why you are using it in your case. It also feels misreppy throughout - "frantically" active, the shade about 'mailman' semantics (effectively, yes, Xtoxm

was

a mailman), 'very' angry/aggressive.

[GuiltyLion]

4. Momo wagon:

ABR was not at all eager to get on the Momo wagon, despite my endless cajoling, and the fact he was pretty happy wagonning everybody else.

Not true, especially the "despite my endless cajoling". You didn't formally push the case strongly until after Hectic claimed. If anything, I think ABR's 1320 was the real turning point to momo and it was entirely consistent with his play up to that point.

I also think this would be the strongest point in your case if true and you believed it, so it's odd to me you only give it a one liner. It feels to me you know you can't substantiate this.

5. His approach to the hood:

ABR was very keen to reveal the identities of people in the hood, has put lots of effort into protecting everyone in that hood during the day, and has taken a firm line that 1 scum-flip confirms the others as town. Which is exactly what he would do as scum, knowing that 50% of the hood was scum.

"

ASSUMING

he's scum, then his play fits a scum agenda!". This is backwards and faulty reasoning. It's equally plausible that he plays this way if he is town, believed 1 scum in the hood, and believed you/Pine to be town.

6. No Traps:

If ABR was town, I think he would have been high on the list for scum to trap. He has claimed that he doesn't have any immunity to this. This is not conclusive, but very suspicious given scum have focussed on other veterans like me and Farside.

I agree the trap choices so far have been odd given D1, but I also think town doesn't have enough info about how the traps are decided to make this kind of argument in the way that you're doing. MT and I were both put into traps immediately after D2 ended, that's not enough time for scum to be making decisions based on the outcome of D2.

[GuiltyLion]

ABR and BM have very similar posting styles so I realy don't get this hate. BM is playing the same as he did in day 1 and he loved him there.

VOTE: ABR

GROOOOOOSSSSSS

what's completely missing from this post is any reasoning why Dany thinks ABR is scum

[GuiltyLion]

OK some people may wonder why I am upset?

After Xtoxm got lynched I unleashed a torrent of anger on BM in our PT yesterday within the first couple minutes of night, and then ignored him for the rest of N2.

This level of incompetence on his part is mind-boggling, and I fully blame myself for the part I played in this yesterday, which is why I continue to be upset today.

Here's a question for the class

BM also said something to this effect, so to some degree we know ABR yelled at BM in the hood.

Why would scum!ABR do that? Why is that his plan, instead of simply buddying/killing BM??

I don't think BM/ABR really would have taken all that much heat from the Xtoxm Lynch yesterday - Xtoxm was playing a lurky game and didn't have great associative with Momo. Tons of townies scumread him. So why would scum!ABR flip out after a town!BM pushed a pretty straightforward mislynch?

It just doesn't feel to me like it serves a scum-agenda.

[GuiltyLion]

Spoiler: new reads

TOWN BLOCK //
Battle Mage

HEAVY TOWN LEAN //
ABR, GeorgeBailey,

VaultDweller

MEDIUM TOWN LEAN //
Vecna,

GuiltyLion

WEAK TOWN LEAN //

BBMolla

Unsure //
pisskop,

Gamma

SOMEWHAT BAD LOOKS //
Blake, Davesaz, Drixx

TIME-OUT //
iDanyboy

Changes made in bold. No big analysis done here, just reaction changes made in light of recent events.

We need new material aside from BM's ABR case and my iDanyboy case. All you need to know about those should be in the last few pages (in theory). Let's have another multidimentional day like d1, rather than d2

I’m curious, what caused me and BB to shift here?

Also not a fan of what feels like you short selling the ABR case.

Vault going way up made me want to reconsider my weaker reads. A lot of people expressing scumreads on BB made me feel insecure about my read on him.

The odds of scum never putting a townie in a trap increased my paranoia on GL

. You i had really weak reasoning for town leaning so i decided it wasnt smart to put you above unsure.

im just generally not a fan of the case!

wrt the bolded, what do you make of the fact ABR hasn’t been in one either despite being much more vocal/influential than GL?

I think the biggest part of your case that interests me is how if Amanda Young is in this game, she'd need to be in the Survivor hood. If momo's flip is any indication, anyway. His real role (Logan) and his fake role (Simone) were both survivors.

AH. I just realized. Amanda isnt a Jigsaw survivor. Not in the way your hood implies it. Your hood is a scene from Saw 3D. It's a bunch of people sitting in chairs at a church in a kind of support group.

https://sawfilms.fandom.com/wiki/Jigsaw_Survivor_Group

Logan Nelson is not a jigsaw survivor as described by your hood. Simone is.

BM, are you on this list of characters?

Spoiler:

Bobby Dagen
Simone
Mallick
Emily
Brad
Ryan
Tara Abbott
Lawrence Gordon
Addy
Sidney

If you are not, then the flavour is not perfectly linked. Thereby meaning ABR's claim (Corlett Denlon) not being linked doesnt matter.

Sorry I referenced the wrong post earlier regarding all the flavor spec, this is the post that defeats BM's flavor argument.

[GuiltyLion]

also whoops accidentally quoted a Gamma post I was tempted to reply to but Gamma you're really obvscumming on the last page here lol

[GuiltyLion]

BM I hope you are paying attention to how much Gamma is sucking up to you right now

[GuiltyLion]

Just an FYI if we decide we want to lynch ABR today we should instead give him a day to hand off the key and revisit the next day

Plus like BM’s speculation means ABR isn’t likely to be Jigsaw anyway so that’s another reason to not lynch there yet

how did you evolve from this to voting ABR? lmao

if ABR has the ability to hand off the key then he should hand it off so a universally townread townie can have it. If he does not, that's nearly a scum claim immediately and we lynch him after that.

Danyboy remains a superior lynch

[GuiltyLion]

Also the key giving can be roleblocked so I don’t think we can try to conf anything off the key so never mind the idea of sparing ABR for the key

eh actually alright this is fair and I missed this when skimming earlier

[GuiltyLion]

The reason this doesn’t refute it has already been covered, are you actually all caught up currently?

link me to that post?

[GuiltyLion]

Because he made a deliberate point of emphasising early in the game that there were no VTs, in the hood no less, I think it's odd that he then later claims VT. As in, because he made a point of emphasising no VTs, I assumed he would definitely have some kind of additional power rather than just a neighbour. So I believe he was intending to claim some town PR, and then later on forgot, making it a scumslip.

I think scum!ABR would be smarter than this, don't you?

[GuiltyLion]

I'd love to hear why you think me defending ABR is a move for towncred rather than just town that thinks you're likely to be wrong. pretty nice amount of towncred its gotten me so far hasnt it?

I think defending players is white knighting = scum. Don't defend, ever. Always go on attack.

I think pressing people on the reasons they have for scumreading players, especially the weak ones, is one of the best ways to find scum

[GuiltyLion]

alright lemme claim about my game, then I'll have to return again later

I was put into the blade box, where I had been poisoned and the antidote was inside a box only accessible by sticking my wrists through blades. I had two options -
a) do nothing and die at the end of the night due to poison
b) reach into the box and retrieve the antidote. If I do so, I would suffer such great pain that I would 'be a distraction' to town the next day, which means we wouldn't be able to Lynch.

Now, I am

Jill Tuck

and my power is I have inside knowledge of how Jigsaw's games work, which means I have an [x]-shot ability to disable them, so I took that option instead.

If games are the only killing avenue available to scum, this makes me

really hard

to kill. I see this is somewhat balanced by the sheer number of games that scum have - also given MT's explanation - but that's why I asked MT about how she got out of her game, because I was skeptical multiple townies would be able to do this. MT answering that they actually just took the worse choice which results in more games makes sense and gives me no qualms about her being town.

There's another aspect of my role that also gives slight negative utility, but I don't see it as pro-town to claim that at the moment. I will claim it later if it becomes relevant.

[GuiltyLion]

Flavor is entirely NAI so is setup spec.

Great! You’re still the scummiest by play

dude it is literally impossible for me to townread you when you say things like this

VOTE: iDanyboy

EASILY the most obvscum/scummiest slot by play. A million times more so than ABR. IMO not being willing to Lynch this slot today is nearly tantamount to a scum claim. BM can bluff all he wants about ABR being obvscum, his case being air tight, yada yada yadda, but there's no world where you can convince me you look at ABR's ISO and DanyBoy's ISO and find ABR the scummier of the two.

[GuiltyLion]

also Gamma, I don't mean to stomp on you if you are town, but a number of your posts in the past few pages are taunting/shading through dirty/cheap potshots, not generating useful info or adding to a solve, or expressing new viewpoints. See 2259, 2255, 2240, 2232, it's like your goal is to taunt ABR and shade who still town reads that slot, and it doesn't serve a pro town agenda IMO

[GuiltyLion]

EBWOP - shade *anyone who townreads that slot

[GuiltyLion]

Vecna what makes you say George isn't doing anything? His post 1973 is a clear/concise analysis of the two wagons we've seen so far and why he's voting iDanyBoy. The thoughts line up very well with my own.

BM I may reply to some of your replies later when I have time/energy, but I will tell you I am virtually never going to wind up voting ABR today, so you should spend your energy trying to cajole/convince someone to vote there elsewhere. I am firmly convinced iDanyBoy is the correct lynch today, or could be talked into Gamma if a Gamma wagon becomes more viable. Your points do not become stronger by simply repeating them.

[GuiltyLion]

What if the key is just a scum tool?

So they can put themselves into traps, have it announced but walk out while fooling everyone that theyre part of it.

It makes very little sense for his actual victims to have keys to the traps.

What if Gamma actually scumclaimed with his key shit?

No idea why he'd give it to ABR though, unless he's bussing here.

The way GE is approaching this feels like he's actively bussing, or trying to fire up a TvT

Not sure which it is exactly

these are some good thoughts btw

Gamma I think you need to flavor claim and explain why you have a key to the traps

and I still don't really buy that ABR is your strongest townread at night to the point where you give him this key, and then you flip so casually/easily to voting him today and not even entertaining ideas of ways to leash him to try to handoff or use the key.

p-edit: sure, fair enough. More activity from slots I think are town is always good. I just don't suspect him at all right now.

[GuiltyLion]

@EVERYONE IN iDANY'S HOOD

is his D2 hood posting consistent with an inno on far side? Did he soft/imply that in anyway such that it could be deduced if he died? Similar to his attitude towards Gamma?

[GuiltyLion]

hmmm

I don't -love- Dany's claim bc if that's true that means I'm wildly reading the game wrong and scum-siding pretty hard right now - unless Gamma is Jigsaw

I do kinda buy two cops though, or at least don't feel that's inherently imbalanced.

I wanna see what MT/George think.

[GuiltyLion]

I guess the thing is, if iDanyBoy and Gamma were scum together, why does he claim to townclear his partner? Gamma would be in his corner already, and it wouldn't really buy Gamma further towncred after iDanyBoy flips

I wonder, of the people advocating only one scum in the large hood, who would that be, if we are to buy Dany's claims and results? Who is alive in that hood again? Drixx/VaultDweller/iDanyBoy/Gamma/George/davesaz? with Farside and Hectic dead?

[GuiltyLion]

danyBoy, Hectic's role PM does not mention a restriction in who he can target, and he was in the same hood as you. Why are you limited to your own hood, from a flavor perspective?

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yeah, I think I am definitely wrong on Gamma, and likely wrong on Dany as a result too.

Which means I gotta do a hard reset
UNVOTE:

[GuiltyLion]

I like the case on momo, but also place a high value on the power of competing wagons. Seeing Hectic struggle to find the case, which was very plainly stated by GL and by at least one person voting him, is entertaining at a minimum. It illustrates that he isn't truly reading and/or doesn't want to acknowledge it, and I think town would want to do both along with explicitly refuting it. I'll stay here but for the purposes of gauging wagon viability consider me willing to switch when needed.

re-examining Dave with fresh eyes in light of potentially town!Dany and town!Gamma, this feels a scummy excuse to stay on the Hectic wagon

[GuiltyLion]

I am more inclined to buy Dany's claim given what Gamma is saying about him stating that Jigsaw was in the hood. I don't think scum is likely to have the foresight to plant that seed ahead of time in order to make his claim more believable.

[GuiltyLion]

Eddie Cane!! Excited to play with ya again.

Prodge received, sorry this is kind of a work week from hell for me, I will be around tonight. In the meantime I'm thinking Dave is still worth pressuring here, and I'm unsure of whether I buy Molla not seeing why Vault is only scum with Vecna as genuine town confusion or not. I'll try to have more conclusive thoughts on that when I have more time to play later today.

[GuiltyLion]

@Drixx - can you give your read on danyBoy?

You have almost no interactions about/with him except to disagree with him about the merits of BM's case and then to disagree with me when I wonder whether danyboy saying Jigsaw is in his hood is unlikely to be scum premeditating their fakeclaim. I have no idea what your actual read on him is at all.

I kinda feel Drixx is scummier and scummier the more I think about it - the way he shaded momo but kept pushing BM/Vecna instead on D1 feels agenda-y.

[GuiltyLion]

I'll do a proper reads list tomorrow, but for now the cliffnotes version to spark discussion because this game is stagnant: MT very town, Vault town partly from Vecna and partly from how he reacted to being "green checked", Gamma town because he was pretty town anyways, may have a cop inno, and scum almost never actually green check their partners in my experience, Drixx a bit scummy (and seen a couple people (I think BM/MT) call him townie maybe it was from the bulk of d1 I did not read could use an explanation), spicy town read on Blake/Fire, BM I have a rabbit hole paranoia read I don't want to go down unless asked but overall pretty town, should probably have a read on vecna but don't, thought he was townie but doubting myself and looking for the momo bus votes so IDFK, don't remember anything of substance from GL or Piss (that's scummier for GL because he's the one there good at mafia), molla has not seemed obv town yet which might make him scum but would like to hear fire's read.

I like these reads overall - I think Vecna is clearly town though

I'm happy to sheep you/MT today. I personally kinda want to give dany a day with that claim and lynch elsewhere, but if we're set on him seemling like obvscum and worth lynching through the claim then ultimately I'm on board with that

[GuiltyLion]

frankly I been celebrating my birthday and not tryna think too hard about this game yet this weekend, love you all and hope you're having a wonderful weekend. more in a sec but I can't promise it'll be especially cogent

[GuiltyLion]

if you want people to stop scumreading you, do stuff worth townreading?

Just sitting there indignant is doing nothing to help your case buddy

Yeah we're just past the point where the effort is worth it. Sorry to be so blunt. I could spend all night reading and make all sorts of notes and I'm still on the list of people the scum hope to mislynch. If I'm eating a lynch then I'd rather do it while there's a chance it doesn't end the game in a scum win.

why must you always play like this Drixx

why

[GuiltyLion]

I could do Bingle today if we don't wanna let him live through the claim. His catchup is good but I agree with EC it's not like especially town

I could do Blake/Fire slot as well, or Drixx. Those are prob my three acceptable lynches. I'm very iffy on Drixx going back to literally my first game on site I struggled with reading him. I do vibe with his feelings about BM and if he's scum he's quite good at faking that indignant town attitude.

I'm not super sure how I feel about those three overall and I know I gotta make firmer decisions there. I'll put in some real effort tomorrow.

I actually think I wanna go for Firebringer here. I agree with Vecna - Blake's ISO is very underwhelming from what I normally expect from town!Ank, and the defense of Xtoxm and pushing on ABR D2 feels most likely to be scum setting up for better situation on D3.

VOTE: Firebringer

[GuiltyLion]

Eddie if you feel strongly that Ank slot is town or at least the wrong lynch today, I can defer to you on that since tbh your assessment of her meta/playstyle feels more nuanced and built off a lot more experience than I have with her. I think I'm just struggling to see a lot of clear scum candidates here if Bingle claim is legit. I definitely do not want ABR today, but trying to hit right between Bingle/Drixx/Blake feels like a crapshoot especially since two of the players can't really justify or explain their predecessors play.

What do you think of Bingle discreding MT as a universal townread? Is that scum just trying to have a nice 'against the grain' fake read to try to sound original or is that likely to be genuine?

[GuiltyLion]

I could do Bingle today if we don't wanna let him live through the claim. His catchup is good but I agree with EC it's not like especially town

I could do Blake/Fire slot as well, or Drixx. Those are prob my three acceptable lynches. I'm very iffy on Drixx going back to literally my first game on site I struggled with reading him. I do vibe with his feelings about BM and if he's scum he's quite good at faking that indignant town attitude.

I'm not super sure how I feel about those three overall and I know I gotta make firmer decisions there. I'll put in some real effort tomorrow.

I actually think I wanna go for Firebringer here. I agree with Vecna - Blake's ISO is very underwhelming from what I normally expect from town!Ank, and the defense of Xtoxm and pushing on ABR D2 feels most likely to be scum setting up for better situation on D3.

VOTE: Firebringer

why you seem to have same reads as everyone else?

sorry are you asking me why my reads are my reads

I also feel I've been pretty instrumental in pushing against the popular ABR wagon at the start of today and I've been trying to probe at davesaz/gamma (until he was claimed inno'd) even when most others weren't

[GuiltyLion]

VOTE: davesaz

I kinda want to go back here again

is anybody especially townreading davesaz?

[GuiltyLion]

Where are your overall reads at rn?

Solid town, never voting today - MT, Vecna, Eddie Cane, Vault Dweller

Townreads that I can imagine myself being wrong on but strongly not interested in lynching - ABR, Ircher, pisskop

Meh, would compromise on at deadline but feel like a coinflip, clearly there is likely some town here - Drixx, Fire, Molla, Battle Mage

Scummy and most interested in wagoning - Bingle, davesaz

[GuiltyLion]

gonna have to catch me up, was abr popular wagon that u dismantled? just last page few pages i read seemed like u agreed with consensus

see these quotes where I push back against ABR wagon when he had 3-4 votes and BM was pushing it heavily:

Spoiler:

I think ABR is a distraction and likely town.

I want(ed?) to believe BM is also town and just misguided/confbiased, but the longer this 1v1 with ABR goes on the less confident I am in that. I am kinda thinking Blake is town here actually, especially if BM is scum, but I'm not super convinced about it and need to dig more through all her content.

so a few fundamental flaws with the initial case and why I'm not convinced by it, chunked into a few posts for readability:

1. PT Behaviour on Day 1 and post-lynch:

I noted at outset of Day 2 his behaviour in PT is exactly what I would expect from him as scum (and only Momo's behaviour made me think he was clean).
He was initially not keen to throw suspicion on others in the hood, and just wanted everyone to follow him. He just 'assumed' Momo and I were town, and only suggested Pine was scum when Pine wouldn't toe the line. ABR was non-committal on my Momo scum-read, and didn't engage with it until after the flip. After the flip, he was excited and jubilant, and claimed credit for the lynch.

This doesn't match with what you said yesterday:

I mean, ABR is in a hood with me (and formerly Momo-scum), I can tell you with absolute confidence that the way Momo acted towards ABR in that PT, is NOT the way scum acts towards a partner. Is it conceivably possible ABR is scum? Yes. Is it remotely likely? No. Should we be discussing it today? Obviously not.

You don't mention Dany at all, despite the fact that he has been a big focal point today. Instead, I assume he is your unnamed 2nd favourite lynch for today?

Also note the last bit here ^ shading Blake on not pushing Dany hard enough? Good to remember if/when Dany flips red.

You also doubled down on this when pressed by Blake:

Battle Mage.

Answer the question.

There's no question here. Let me ask you something instead - how do you think I could have confidence in anything you say when you don't read my posts properly and with due respect? when you have not engaged with the trends and key issues in the game? and when you are trying to waste time and obfuscate affairs by throwing shade at people who we are clearly not lynching today?

This conversation is a waste of time. I know you are smarter than this, and so I have to believe there's a chance you are scum protecting Xtoxm, but I'll lynch him first to find out.

[question above referring to why BM is sure momo/ABR are not buddies]

Boy, sure is a shame you didn't elaborate on why ABR/momo could not possibly be partners yesterday!

EVERYONE PLEASE READ THE ABOVE, IT IS IMPORTANT. REST OF THESE POINTS ARE LESS IMPORTANT (but still you should read them)

2. Flavour:

As noted in my setup theory, I think Amanda Young is highly likely in the game, as a survivor. ABR has instead claimed, in the PT, that he is Corbett Denlon - the child of 2 confirmed townies. She was not a prominent feature of the film franchise, so I'm not sure she would be a character in the game, especially given both her parents were. She was also never subject to Jigsaw's traps, so I wouldn't really call her a 'survivor' at all, and she'd be way way down on the list of likely survivor characters compared to Amanda Young. Gut says it MUST be a fakeclaim.

So the argument here (built off the setup spec), is basically that ABR's claim cannot be true because she was not a prominent feature of the film franchise, and that she doesn't belong in the survivor group here. It's already been covered by MT in 1986, I'm not convinced by this and I generally don't support flavor cases to begin with, the mod gives fakeclaims so by definition scum cannot/should not be caught by virtue of flavor claim alone.

3. PT Behaviour Night 1 onwards:

During Night 1, ABR suddenly became frantically active in the PT, having neglected it for a while before that (me and Pine were both stuck in traps at this point of course). He claimed his role and flavour, and also claimed that Xtoxm was a "mailman" (incidentally, not what he flipped), and then gave the story I repeated yesterday in order to make me suspect Xtoxm, which on reflection may not have been true. He was not keen on my suggestion of lynching those not in a PT, which suggests if ABR flips scum, there is some more credence to it. I made it clear that I didn't trust him (by not reciprocating his claim, or sharing info about what happened to me in my trap), and since then he has become very angry and aggressive in the PT.

Unfortunately none of us can verify this, so, not sure why you are using it in your case. It also feels misreppy throughout - "frantically" active, the shade about 'mailman' semantics (effectively, yes, Xtoxm

was

a mailman), 'very' angry/aggressive.

4. Momo wagon:

ABR was not at all eager to get on the Momo wagon, despite my endless cajoling, and the fact he was pretty happy wagonning everybody else.

Not true, especially the "despite my endless cajoling". You didn't formally push the case strongly until after Hectic claimed. If anything, I think ABR's 1320 was the real turning point to momo and it was entirely consistent with his play up to that point.

I also think this would be the strongest point in your case if true and you believed it, so it's odd to me you only give it a one liner. It feels to me you know you can't substantiate this.

5. His approach to the hood:

ABR was very keen to reveal the identities of people in the hood, has put lots of effort into protecting everyone in that hood during the day, and has taken a firm line that 1 scum-flip confirms the others as town. Which is exactly what he would do as scum, knowing that 50% of the hood was scum.

"

ASSUMING

he's scum, then his play fits a scum agenda!". This is backwards and faulty reasoning. It's equally plausible that he plays this way if he is town, believed 1 scum in the hood, and believed you/Pine to be town.

6. No Traps:

If ABR was town, I think he would have been high on the list for scum to trap. He has claimed that he doesn't have any immunity to this. This is not conclusive, but very suspicious given scum have focussed on other veterans like me and Farside.

I agree the trap choices so far have been odd given D1, but I also think town doesn't have enough info about how the traps are decided to make this kind of argument in the way that you're doing. MT and I were both put into traps immediately after D2 ended, that's not enough time for scum to be making decisions based on the outcome of D2.

OK some people may wonder why I am upset?

After Xtoxm got lynched I unleashed a torrent of anger on BM in our PT yesterday within the first couple minutes of night, and then ignored him for the rest of N2.

This level of incompetence on his part is mind-boggling, and I fully blame myself for the part I played in this yesterday, which is why I continue to be upset today.

Here's a question for the class

BM also said something to this effect, so to some degree we know ABR yelled at BM in the hood.

Why would scum!ABR do that? Why is that his plan, instead of simply buddying/killing BM??

I don't think BM/ABR really would have taken all that much heat from the Xtoxm Lynch yesterday - Xtoxm was playing a lurky game and didn't have great associative with Momo. Tons of townies scumread him. So why would scum!ABR flip out after a town!BM pushed a pretty straightforward mislynch?

It just doesn't feel to me like it serves a scum-agenda.

Because he made a deliberate point of emphasising early in the game that there were no VTs, in the hood no less, I think it's odd that he then later claims VT. As in, because he made a point of emphasising no VTs, I assumed he would definitely have some kind of additional power rather than just a neighbour. So I believe he was intending to claim some town PR, and then later on forgot, making it a scumslip.

I think scum!ABR would be smarter than this, don't you?

also here I am arguing with a townread about why he should townread Eddie's slot before Eddie replaced in:

Vecna what makes you say George isn't doing anything? His post 1973 is a clear/concise analysis of the two wagons we've seen so far and why he's voting iDanyBoy. The thoughts line up very well with my own.

BM I may reply to some of your replies later when I have time/energy, but I will tell you I am virtually never going to wind up voting ABR today, so you should spend your energy trying to cajole/convince someone to vote there elsewhere. I am firmly convinced iDanyBoy is the correct lynch today, or could be talked into Gamma if a Gamma wagon becomes more viable. Your points do not become stronger by simply repeating them.

[GuiltyLion]

Here's my case on Dave - what pushing/scumhunting has he done, at any point in this game?

I tried to call him out on this D1 and got shot down by A50 because "that's just how Dave plays", and I let that stand for a while, but now it's mid/late Day 3 and I literally have no idea how Dave reads the game. I try to remember what his reads are and there's nothing there. I can't think of the last time he expressed a serious scumread or tried to influence the thread toward or away from lynching one player or another.

Why am I supposed to conclude that is town? I look at his ISO and it's just him jumping in with snipes about random mechanics issues or commenting on things in a very noncommittal fashion. Why should anybody think Dave is a town player trying to generate information or content based on what he's done so far? The last time he even threw down a vote was on Hectic in 1034.

[GuiltyLion]

In terms of play, she has been as scummy as anybody still living with the exception of ABR.

... which game are you reading, lmao

please explain what MT has done that is scum-indicative

[GuiltyLion]

also, me becoming a sudden counter wagon to Dave is interesting and makes me feel more confident that Dave is scum

[GuiltyLion]

I like the case on momo, but also place a high value on the power of competing wagons. Seeing Hectic struggle to find the case, which was very plainly stated by GL and by at least one person voting him, is entertaining at a minimum. It illustrates that he isn't truly reading and/or doesn't want to acknowledge it, and I think town would want to do both along with explicitly refuting it. I'll stay here but for the purposes of gauging wagon viability consider me willing to switch when needed.

and again, let's not forget that this is the reasoning why Dave decided not to vote Momo

[GuiltyLion]

saying "please explain" when you know I've already explained, at length, over the course of numerous posts, is lame. You're better than that. You're probably the smartest dude in this game. The post above isn't the best illustration of it, and targeting me just because I'm voting for you is pretty cheap.

quote the posts then if you've already explained it, because I don't remember you ever making a good case for scum!MT

[GuiltyLion]

why me instead of Dave

I think in the most neutral objective sense, you should agree he is more likely to be scum than I am

[GuiltyLion]

In terms of play, she has been as scummy as anybody still living with the exception of ABR.

... which game are you reading, lmao

please explain what MT has done that is scum-indicative

saying "please explain" when you know

I've already explained, at length, over the course of numerous posts, is lame

. You're better than that. You're probably the smartest dude in this game. The post above isn't the best illustration of it, and targeting me just because I'm voting for you is pretty cheap.

saying "please explain" when you know I've already explained, at length, over the course of numerous posts, is lame. You're better than that. You're probably the smartest dude in this game. The post above isn't the best illustration of it, and targeting me just because I'm voting for you is pretty cheap.

quote the posts then if you've already explained it, because I don't remember you ever making a good case for scum!MT

It's not my job to go back and quote my own posts for you, it's your job to read them, as you are very capable of doing.

And I never made a case for "scum!MT" as such - as I clearly said in my post which you originally responded to, I said MT's play has been exceptionally scummy, but I don't think she's scum

because I don't think the FBI hood has scum in it. I can't imagine how anyone else who is actually reading the game could come to the conclusion MT is town...

If my mechanic solve turns out to be completely wrong, I expect MT to be a pretty high priority lynch, but we're a little ways off that.

so I ask you to explain why you think MT is scum
you say I need to just read your posts where you've explained it at length
I ask you to quote these posts
then you say you never actually made a case for MT as scum explicitly and you think MT is town mechanically

so what were you even on about when you responded to my first question by saying that you already explained

"at length"

why MT is scummy when you don't even claim she's scum now?

[GuiltyLion]

….acting scummy doesn't necessarily mean you are scum. If this is really where we're at, I'm off to sleep.

you should definitely sleep if you're seriously trying to talk out of both sides of your mouth regarding MT's alignment. Either the things she's doing are scum-indicative or they aren't, you can't have it both ways. If you think she's town-cleared by mechanics then you can't also argue that her day play is scummy, because by your own assumed definition it's not.

[GuiltyLion]

Ok guys I'm tired of this game stalling.

Let's end today.

VOTE: Firebringer

no thoughts on EC's reasons for townreading that slot?

[GuiltyLion]

@ABR

As I said, I just played TM with Ank and we had a discord server with thousands of messages. I understand how she plays quite well I think now, and already read her fairly well. During the Large Theme she was town, town was in a similarly bad situation (I think actually on d3 too), and she was very apathetic and low content and wanted to replace. Tom and I had to talk her into staying. This game mirrors her apathy of that one fairly well imo - https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=150&t=81773 the content level is higher, but most of it is directly prompted by myself, as well as a bit of Tom and Dann. https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... &start=200 is the only scum game from Alyssa I'm familiar with firsthand, but her play there feels very different from here, with it being much more fluid and, well, good. This game is

also

different from her when I've normally seen her as town, but it fits with my image of how her brain scans games, and the apathetic replace out even from a null pov is more likely to come from town when town is losing. I've looked over her iso a few times, and there were a few specific posts that somewhat pinged town. One interesting thing I would note, is that as far as I can tell she lists momo as town in her big reads list (#512) (at a time momo was pretty widely town read I think, which in itself is fine), and did not really acknowledge his existence outside of responding to quotes from other people until she voted him in #1398. According to vcs this is around or slightly after when wagons swinged to momo, but I don't know gamestate at the time so maybe thats wrong. Ank seems like the kind of player to overly theater rather than not acknowledge partners, but I wish I could have questioned her on what changed (again - unless gamestate stuff I'm missing), or if the vc is deceptive and scum!ank just wanted to get in on the wagon before it inevitably went through.

As an aside,

I can tell you with absolute confidence that the way Momo acted towards ABR in that PT, is NOT the way scum acts towards a partner.

what...

I do not have her as my top tier of town, and would not object to her lynch like I would, say, Morning Tweet. On my first read after subbing in I thought she was pretty likely town, faded a bit as I got a lot of town reads, and tbh developed a stronger read on her while writing that post. But yea, I think being on a team with someone is even better than hydraing with them, because you actually get to see how they solve a game "on their own" rather than "with" you. After TM18 I didn't get Giga/Katy, JJ, nor Transcend (rip) wrong again

ever

as far as I remember. So to use less words (I get rambly at 5 AM after drinking lightly) I think Ank is town. She is not super town, but she is more likely town.

[GuiltyLion]

no, you specifically declined to vote Momo when you made that post and kept your vote on Hectic.

I don't care if you're turned off, if you're town you owe it to the rest of us to be transparent about your reads and who you'd like to lynch today. Why should we be townreading you if you are barely engaging with the game? How am I to look at your play here and discern that this is town!Dave and not scum!Dave?

[GuiltyLion]

no, you specifically declined to vote Momo when you made that post and kept your vote on Hectic.

Quote please?

I've quoted it twice already:

I like the case on momo, but also place a high value on the power of competing wagons. Seeing Hectic struggle to find the case, which was very plainly stated by GL and by at least one person voting him, is entertaining at a minimum. It illustrates that he isn't truly reading and/or doesn't want to acknowledge it, and I think town would want to do both along with explicitly refuting it. I'll stay here but for the purposes of gauging wagon viability consider me willing to switch when needed.

re-examining Dave with fresh eyes in light of potentially town!Dany and town!Gamma, this feels a scummy excuse to stay on the Hectic wagon

I like the case on momo, but also place a high value on the power of competing wagons. Seeing Hectic struggle to find the case, which was very plainly stated by GL and by at least one person voting him, is entertaining at a minimum. It illustrates that he isn't truly reading and/or doesn't want to acknowledge it, and I think town would want to do both along with explicitly refuting it. I'll stay here but for the purposes of gauging wagon viability consider me willing to switch when needed.

and again, let's not forget that this is the reasoning why Dave decided not to vote Momo

[GuiltyLion]

I do think Dave is a good lynch here.

with respect to the danyboy claim, why is it unbelievable? I don't think it's unlikely to come from scum but I also don't think it's particularly unlikely from town? And I think Bingle makes a good point that if his role is true, then there's definitely scum in his hood and Dave is the most likely of the uncleared slots.

[GuiltyLion]

are we softing ANOTHER investigative

I guess it fits with the police hood

Dave if you're going to soft like that then you at least need to make it clear who is NOT jigsaw. That's not indicated anywhere in your ISO.

[GuiltyLion]

Idk what to do I kinda buy the soft but I feel like I'll buy any semi plausible cop claim

UNVOTE:

what are the odds that Ircher is actually just Jigsaw? His reads demonstrate no thought whatsoever and I'm giving him a tonnnn of credit for Gamma being Inno'd and Gamma also backing up iDanyboy's claim when he did

[GuiltyLion]

Jigsaw giving out keys to his own traps? :thinking_face:

[GuiltyLion]

Do you think ircher's apathy is AI for him? I'm willing to entertain ircher being jigsaw yes, but i wouldn't lynch him over the other choices

I don't know Ircher well enough to read anything AI into the apathy, I just know that his votes/reads don't make sense together and so either he hasn't tried to understand the game prior to replacing in or he's scum just coasting off a clear and voting wherever he wants

I agree he's a bad lynch at the moment but I would want to go back there if he survives after we hit an acolyte today

[GuiltyLion]

ABR, davesaz, Battle Mage, and GuiltyLion perhaps is the scum team.

like this just fragrantly makes no sense, in means scum would all be trying to bus each other (BM pushing ABR, me pushing davesaz, BM wagoning me), would mean most of the major wagons today were on scum, and as ABR pointed out it would mean Pine's hood was 3 scum and Pine

[GuiltyLion]

I want EC/Vecna thoughts on dave's claim and what to do in light of it. I might wanna go for the no hood scum and lynch Molla

[GuiltyLion]

I am unmoved by the soft, FWIW.

Can I get your thoughts from a mechanical perspective on the existence of 2 cops (one who can only check their own hood), a godfather, and then another investigative that can only check for godfather

do you think the only-Jigsaw cop doesn't make sense as a town role?

[GuiltyLion]

VOTE: Bingle

I'll be around to do more in a little bit. I think this is the best lynch given the preferences of MT/EC as my strongest town reads, and iDanyboy's ISO being so bad. Bingle has tried his best to town up the slot but his play is mostly focused on mechanics and not especially hard for scum to fake

[GuiltyLion]

Dave's reaction of "crumb PR as hard as possible while keeping his actual particulars vague" is not likely to be town imo, because the crumbs make him just as likely to eat a nightkill (trap) as the actual claim would, but keeping the claim vague as shit lets him tailor it further if he lives.

It's also bullshit that he's going to immediately be the nightkill target off of a (I have a 1/the playerlist chance of hitting scum!) when he's a likely lynch and scum is almost at the endgame. Frankly, an investigative that can only hit the godfather would be a nonissue to a 4 person scumteam at this point.

this is important

I think the frustration is genuine and they're good points on why dave's claim isn't especially valuable

but I'm not sure why this makes dave scum

and I think the chance of town!Dave getting a cop off on Ircher slot is more valuable to solving than town!Bingle getting a cop off on Drixx or a townread player in the hood

[GuiltyLion]

VOTE: Bingle

I'll be around to do more in a little bit. I think this is the best lynch given the preferences of MT/EC as my strongest town reads, and iDanyboy's ISO being so bad. Bingle has tried his best to town up the slot but his play is mostly focused on mechanics and not especially hard for scum to fake

Wait a minute. Based on what evidence?

evidence for what? I've laid out why I've scumread danyBoy the entire game. Only reason I was open to giving that slot some room was the claim and where my town bloc wanted to go. I've said this constantly throughout today, nothing has changed

[GuiltyLion]

I also have this weird train of thought where like

let's say we let both/either of them live

if Bingle then claims a guilty on someone tomorrow, like Drixx or EC or whoever, I'm not gonna be sold on that. As long as Bingle's alignment is unknown, I don't inherently trust his results regardless, which makes the claim kinda useless. A Bingle townflip would go further towards making me wanna Lynch Drixx than a claimed guilty would

whereas if Dave claims a Godfather hit, I'm much more inclined to believe and sheep on that

[GuiltyLion]

also just had a further thought on the "as scum with Jigsaw!gamma, iDanyboy would not claim an inno on his Jigsaw buddy"

it's true that you want your godfather partner to be investigated by the actual town cop, but what if Jigsaw flips first instead? Then it lends plausibility/credence to the inno result, making the claim more believable while not actually having to generate an inno on anybody else in the game

[GuiltyLion]

Like, who is GB? I dont dont remember a GB playing.

GeorgeBailey

[GuiltyLion]

Eddie was also on both Dave AND Bingle.
So with the chance both Dave and Bingle are Town, Eddie is Scum.
Although Morning also did the same as Eddie so I guess Morning/Eddie would have 1-2 Scum in that sense.

I was also on Dave and Bingle. They're two slots that have a lot of valid reasons to suspect them

[GuiltyLion]

Tweet is likely town as much as I hate to admit it.

why on earth would you 'hate to admit' that one of the more active and solve-y slots is likely town? odd choice of words here

[GuiltyLion]

it's kinda wild watching this thread try to lynch Anyone But Bingle

the dude is a claimed cop, either scum are saving him to mislynch him later because they're not even scared of him getting a guilty, or he's scum. I don't really understand why we're angleshooting into a last minute wagon elsewhere

[GuiltyLion]

momo (11) -

Hectic, farside22

, Morning Tweet, GuiltyLion, Albert B. Rampage,

Elsa Jay

, Blake Belladonna,

Almost50

, Battle Mage,

xtoxm

, BBmolla

I probably should have spent more time on this but IMO this makes it very likely there's scum in {Fire, BM, Molla} and those are the lynches I'll compromise on if not Bingle

[GuiltyLion]

That's the first Ircher reads post I've kinda liked

[GuiltyLion]

honestly I think even if BM had just let himself die in the second trap the game was still salvageable at that point

BM conf town, pisskop/davesaz under suspicion, scum don't have the factional NK

Eddie did a great job talking me off Firebringer on D3, that was really well played there. And pisskop snowed me in the game and played it really smart

shoulda stayed on Dave and not let myself get distracted so much with danyboy, or his claim :/. Dude was obvscum on D1 and I had him the entire game

Thanks for modding SirCakez, the set up was awesome, I enjoyed it

[GuiltyLion]

I definitely gave GeorgeBailey wayyy too much slack for his early posting, that's a new level I've seen from him as scum