Jigsaw's Revenge - Game Over

[Eddie Cane]

Reading up tonight.

[Eddie Cane]

VOTE: iDany

[Eddie Cane]

I'm surprised people aren't talking about the one actually scummy thing I've seen from ABR. Anyways, I've got through most of day 2 working backwards, I'll try to read at least the part of d1 before the momo lynch.

[Eddie Cane]

I'm surprised people aren't talking about the one actually scummy thing I've seen from ABR.

?

I'll get there when I'm not mobile posting later.

@BM, Drixx, MT, Molla

I would like a full reads list please. Explanations are a plus but at least town to scum.

[Eddie Cane]

I'm surprised people aren't talking about the one actually scummy thing I've seen from ABR.

Is it the one where he manipulates people into sheeping him by threatening anyone who doesn't go along?

Nope.

[Eddie Cane]

Is it related to the big 1v1? I shut down when I come across those types of events. It happened in TM too, with different players.

Yea. I enjoy parsing 1v1s.

[Eddie Cane]

I've like, already done one. Several times. Have I not been clear about who I want to lynch today?

You want to lynch ABR, and Molla, and apparently as of the newest page GL, and I believe you gave Pisskop and someone else as compromise lynches. I do not remember seeing a full reads list from you other than EoD1

@Eddie Cane

Will read later, cheers.

Eddie Cane!! Excited to play with ya again.

You too mate!

i have been somewhat reading this game. last i looked bbmolla was being pushed and he was very townie.

I had to iso Firedoge to see that he posted something. Explain this take please?

[Eddie Cane]

wait. Who is Eddie cane?

The best mafia player.

[Eddie Cane]

I've like, already done one. Several times. Have I not been clear about who I want to lynch today?

You want to lynch ABR, and Molla, and apparently as of the newest page GL, and I believe you gave Pisskop and someone else as compromise lynches. I do not remember seeing a full reads list from you other than EoD1

ISO me

Quote it please, not seeing it.

Also, I remember you doing some in-depth setup spec about amount of scum per hood; I asked in my hood and they said there's no list of who's in it, could you quote that stuff again please? I'm I think its called police officer or FBI or w.e.

[Eddie Cane]

I've like, already done one. Several times. Have I not been clear about who I want to lynch today?

You want to lynch ABR, and Molla, and apparently as of the newest page GL, and I believe you gave Pisskop and someone else as compromise lynches. I do not remember seeing a full reads list from you other than EoD1

ISO me

Quote it please, not seeing it.

Also, I remember you doing some in-depth setup spec about amount of scum per hood; I asked in my hood and they said there's no list of who's in it, could you quote that stuff again please? I'm I think its called police officer or FBI or w.e.

It was fricking multi-coloured. gimme a break dude.

there's only 1 scum in your hood, don't think it's you.

you should know your own hood flavour from your role pm.

scum is ABR, 2 of (BBMolla, GuiltyLion, Pisskop), and 1 from your hood (probably Danyboy)

I'm on mobile. Scrolling is not very easy.

Do you have a list of the people in my hood? I asked there, only Dave answered and said there is no list.

[Eddie Cane]

I don't want to vote you, I think you're town.

[Eddie Cane]

I don't want to vote you, I think you're town.

vote BBmolla

I think Dany is more likely to be scum, Molla is not a town read but Dany is actively scummy.

[Eddie Cane]

I don't want to vote you, I think you're town.

vote BBmolla

I think Dany is more likely to be scum, Molla is not a town read but Dany is actively scummy.

Mathematically, we have more chance hitting scum with BBMolla. And you'll note ABR scum has been keen to lynch pretty much anyone today, except BBMolla.

What does that tell you?

I don't understand the mathematical point. I will detail my thoughts on Dany later, is Molla scum to you or just not townie and more likely scum by PoE?

[Eddie Cane]

Firstly: relooked at some of BM's setup/mechanics stuff. I, in fact, am not going to have time to properly post tonight. To let people stew: when Battle Mage was attacking ABR, I think tonally he sounded very townie. However, it did ping me pretty heavily that he didn't actually really engage with Battle Mage's arguments at all. I don't believe there was any point he tried to speak with BM in good faith or reply to his points diplomatically, but instead resigned to emotion and deflection. Ignoring well-composed arguments tends to be a scum thing. Also, following that, ABR's evaluation of BM seems odd - I got the idea he hard town read BM D2/early D3, but when BM started pushing him he changed to wanting to lynch - don't remember who, but somebody said something like "why not wagon BM" and ABR was like "ye that's my second lynch" or smth. Felt off with his trajectory, I'd think town ABR would react to BM with lolidiot not lolscum and anger. It sounded like scum who felt they were caught for the wrong reasons, ie with mod providing them a neighbor fakeclaim and BM tunnelling on that, or for things they believe are irrelevant. The more I type, the more I'm talking myself out of my ABR town lean, damn. But probably wouldn't vote today at any rate.

I can pull up quotes from computer when I have time if needed. But, I think in the grand scheme of things, ABR skews null to town. I think Morning Tweet is town regardless of ABR's alignment, and BM is

probably

town regardless of ABR's alignment. And, on the note of ABR v BM, I thought Drixx had a scummy popin during that argument. Dany's vote on ABR reminded me a lot of this:

VOTE: eddie

where Dany came from completely flaking on a game (like here) to pop in with an essentially naked vote on a wagon being hard pushed by town (this assumes BM!town).

I’m a VT.

Dany also claimed quickly in this game.

I'll do a proper reads list tomorrow, but for now the cliffnotes version to spark discussion because this game is stagnant: MT very town, Vault town partly from Vecna and partly from how he reacted to being "green checked", Gamma town because he was pretty town anyways, may have a cop inno, and scum almost never actually green check their partners in my experience, Drixx a bit scummy (and seen a couple people (I think BM/MT) call him townie maybe it was from the bulk of d1 I did not read could use an explanation), spicy town read on Blake/Fire, BM I have a rabbit hole paranoia read I don't want to go down unless asked but overall pretty town, should probably have a read on vecna but don't, thought he was townie but doubting myself and looking for the momo bus votes so IDFK, don't remember anything of substance from GL or Piss (that's scummier for GL because he's the one there good at mafia), molla has not seemed obv town yet which might make him scum but would like to hear fire's read.

[Eddie Cane]

I read some of pre-scum flip d1 and some random other parts before, and I want to clarify overall I still have ABR as null/slightly town. This is purely discussing the bad.

By far the dumbest case I ever read and way worse than Xtoxm.

This was the first reaction from you, which is not constructive or trying to engage BM. Because mafia is a team game, and even if you believe BM is the worst player to ever play, trying to convince him you are town if you believe he is town is important -

especially

so as he is in the "town leader" role. And, as far as I can tell, you thought he was town up to this point.

Why was BM so sure of xtoxm yesterday that every post he made was a death tunnel?

Without me there's no momo lynch Day 1. BMs theory is 2 scum in a 4 person hood AND I TRY TO MURDER BOTH MY HOOD MATES PINE AND BM N1?????

I didn't read much of d2, so this is all me interpreting posts about it from today. Based on the post Vecna quoted, it looks like you were happy to lynch Xtoxm too, and from what I read EoD1 you were only semi involved in killing Momo.

Maybe BM is paranoid because all my predictions are accurate, everyone killed at night was someone I townread so far. In any case Blake is scum and after today we can stop listening to BM forever.

(As an aside - please explain Blake scum if you still think it? I know you're not voting there but you've pushed there semi recently)
The rest of this page is okay, just some banter and small posts from both parties.

Neighbor is basically vt in this game. Got no powers at night.

Ok I hate to float this idea but what if BM is jigsaw?

Mod said BM killed people N1. He bussed his buddy for infinite towncred and claims BP?

Just a wild theory and ive no interest in voting BM for the next few days just keep that in mind.

Anyways peace out BM needs to be humbled vote Blake kthx

I believe the post said "Due to choices BM made, Elsa died", as in BM was trapped. I am not super familiar with lore but I have played a few saw setup games with trapping as the nks before, and Jigsaw was never allowed to trap themselves. But aside from that, I actually don't think the notion Momo was bussed is crazy, he's a bad player and its actually arguably likely. But this reaction feels more discreditory mafia than knee-jerk town. Not a big deal outside of expressing interest in later lynching BM.

sidenote - reading back through, remembering Piss actually was a bit townie, forgot this

- provided he's not with ABR exactly

Here's the bigger issue though: #1878 has some good points in it, some I'll admit are reachy. #1892 and #1893 are bad-mannered replies and where it devolves.

BM is blacklisted from all my future games if he's town

This and the following flurry of posts after BM only posted a long not-attacking post just seem unnecessary. I think

tonally

they sound town, but my impression is ABR is a good to very good player and AtE is an effective way to sidestep a convincing case. Posts like #1905 are nonsense.

So I dunno, there's some pingy things. I dunno why everyone's so damn confrontational this game.

[Eddie Cane]

You make a good point about ABR not *exactly* driving the momo wagon but sort of taking credit for it. i've been under the impression that ABR/BM were behind momo in similar amounts but it was pretty heavily BM. That might be the only part of BM's case i can sympathize with to some extent

I remember rb gave a stat a couple years ago where d1 scum lynches resulted in scum wins more often than d1 mislynches. The flavour suits this game my impression reading d1 was that BM buried the fuck out of momo, and momo pushed you (MT) for super whack reasons early on that didn't read like theater (on top of you already sounding extremely town today).

Unless you think I should respond to anything in particular?

So to answer directly, I think you should have responded to his well-formatted post with something, rather than degrading into personal attacks. At this point, it seems pretty irrelevant. I probably wouldn't vote you today, and I almost definitely wouldn't vote BM, so its a moot point and we don't need to dredge that part of the game up. I am just more interested in explaining your Blake lock scum read, and why it shifted to killing Dany.

@Eddie Cane

Spoiler: Readslist

BAT //

Morning Tweet I

TOWN BLOCK //

VaultDweller
Battle Mage I

HEAVY TOWN LEAN //

Albert B. Rampage
Vecna

TOWN LEAN //

GeorgeBailey
GuiltyLion I
Gamma Emerald

UNSURE //

iDanyboy
Davesaz
pisskop
BBmolla

SOME BAD LOOKS //

Drixx
Blake Belladonna

Players are ordered within their tier as well from most town to least town (or in iDany's case, how much i want to lynch him atm)
i put tick marks next to players showing how many games they've been in

-===================-

Spoiler: iDany

Very scummy slot. I want iDany to keep living on and give us more cop results, though. Will reconsider in the days to come.

Spoiler: davesaz

Dave is more here because i don’t explicitly townread him more than anything. I put him above my other unsures. Tbh? Reading through his recent ISO actually doesn’t look that bad. He makes good observations at least

A good few of his posts are explaining why he joined the Hectic wagon. Which is fair enough.

There isn’t enough for me to form a solid townread on dave yet though


2395 - Dave explains he voted Hectic because he thought hectic was scum lying about not being able to see the case against him. And also wanted to help get some wagon VCA going.

I do worry about leaning on the Hectic wagon too heavily, since at the time I did give some thought to joining it. Ultimately i liked momo’s better, but there is certainly town on Hectic and we need to find that


2418 - Dave feels it makes sense that iDany’s claim would be a cop when he’s in a cop PT

I agree


2470 - Dave points out that Pine was a double neighbour, and he finds it suspicious people are making a big deal out of the neighbour claim.

again I’m inclined to agree.

Spoiler: pisskop

Kinda bad hop on to ABR in 2063. Did he really think that ABR accidentally claimed VT..? i would expect him to think about how unlikely ABR accidentally fakeclaims a role that doesnt exist

2022 raises a good point and could possibly explain his progression on ABR.

1890 oh apparently pisskop is, in fact, not interested in lynching ABR at this point when there was pressure on ABR. This suggests that pisskop did hop on ABR thinking that ABR claimed something invalid. ok

1872 - I like his willingness to vote Blake or iDany, they are good preferences

pisskop seems generally excited about getting lynches and competing wagons going. Tonally i had a slight townread enough to put him higher than some others. For a large part i find pisskop hard to read so it is partially just a PoE as well

There is this whole d1 interaction where apparently pisskop lied about his PT status? Haven't gone back to actually deeply read that but it could be of some use.

Spoiler: BBMolla

Vecna informed me that BBMolla wasn’t really that invested in Doubles Mafia, and was more or less forced to post. Thank ye for the info


1807 / 2010 - “Can we lynch Gamma / iDany”

iDany was fair at the time. Gamma too, although now i’m starting to think both these individuals may be town and just earlier lynchbait :O


2120 - “ABR is not a VT, he’s a neighbour”

Thank you. I still think pisskop thinking he slipped VT is weird.


2354 / 2407 - “I’ll do stuff” …… “If I were scum I’d be doing stuff”

What


2455 - BBMolla says we can hammer him since he’s already claimed and he doesn’t care

What


2480 - “Vault Dweller and iDany is scum”

(*ﾉω-)


2487 / 2488 / 2489 - BBMolla doesn’t seem to get why Vault is nearly confirmed town

Unsure whether to attribute this to being a faked act or simply BBMolla not really reading into it very closely. His posts prior would certainly suggest he’s not having a lot of time to engage with the game

Spoiler: Drixx

Wary of his suspicion on Vecna and Battle Mage. He seems to be getting the opposite vibes from it that i’d expect.

He ALSO gets the opposite reaction from iDany’s claim, thinking it makes iDany more scum that he claimed cop.. Dunno what to make of this. Why does Drixx suspect all of those who claim?

Not BBMolla’s claim though. Nor has Drixx ever expressed a suspicion on BBMolla. Drixx doesn’t have anywhere in his ISO (that is semi recent) where he outlines what his reads are. He just seems to comment on BM, iDany, Vecna, and Vault (suspicions on all 4).

So with my PoE plus his gameplay, I do not have a lot of confidence in this slot being town

938 - Drixx asking why people townread Hectic

Spoiler: Blake

1089 - “Apologies, I meant to unvote last time I visited the thread.”

I may be biased, but this sounds kinda like it could be a faked thought process. Drixx wasn’t in any kind of pressure. There didn’t really seem to be any reason to say this. Definitely a nitpick though. This post also contributes to a large trend of Blake saying she’ll go to this game but not really ending up getting to it sadly


1300 - Blake says the Drixx and Elsa wagons were acceptable, but the Battle Mage and Vecna wagons were awkward. Her townread on Hectic is going down, and she feels like she should be townreading Morning by now. Dave is unlikely scum if Morning is scum.

Oooh. Hectic was in her highest townreads in 512, but it seemed to progressively melt away. You can see this process in 801, where she comments her trust in Hectic is dwindling. She does comment she has a lot of townreads though


1384 / 1392 / 1398 - Blake makes very sure over multiple posts that ABR did not declare his plan in the neighbourhood to fake push Hectic then turn on momo.

Farside actually points out to Blake that it should be obvious that ABR didn’t spoil the plan to his neighbourhood. I tend to agree. This could be Blake wanting to fake exhibit a sense of cautiousness


1687 - Readslist

She townbins BBMolla and townreads dave + Drixx. I wonder if she feels she can freely townread her partners and use her reputation as a good town player to have people sheep her.

Morning and ABR are her nullreads. Hm okay. I’d kind of expect someone on the scumteam to try and place paranoia on ABR if ABR is town.

And then she pushes Gamma and iDany as being her highest scumreads, voting Gamma. I wonder what made Gamma more scummy than iDany..?


1741 - Claims nothing ABR has done is town

Can see this coming from a town perspective as well as a scum one. ABR has made really controversial statements surrounding the neighbourhoods. Still, if ABR is town, i’d expect someone on the scumteam to try and bring him down


I think her defense on Xtoxm could have had scummy intent. Most of the game kinda just went with the flow assuming BM had some good information. I admit that i did townread Xtoxm and i wanted to defend him too, though

The replaceout is curious but i won’t really focus on it too much. Blake never had a chance to comment on BM’s case on ABR which is a shame..

Overall i could very well see Blake scum with at least a couple in BBMolla/dave/Drixx, possibly iDany!scum as a bus or simply iDany!town. And this would make ABR town as well i think.

Blake scum would make ABR town, I agree. I don't think your reasons for pushing Blake are terrible, but they feel strawmanny - like you came to the conclusion Blake was scum, and then built a narrative around it. I have a few reasons to think that slot is town if you'd like me to expand, but Fire is a pretty easy read so it shouldn't matter. I think Piss sounds town tonally as well, but a lot of slots are townier and he's a tough read, agreed. I actually agree with almost all of your reads and explanations (ie Dave actually sounds okay just hasn't done a ton), other than wimping out of obvscum claiming PR.

[Eddie Cane]

Amanda Young faked being in a trap in Saw II (she still had to play it and was in some danger. See: needle pit), and Hoffman faked being in a trap in Saw IV (he was faking being in the trap, he was in no danger. See: ice block trap).

Dr Gordon, Amanda, and Logan all had to go through real traps before becoming acolytes, as well

All this flavor is making me want to watch the series, lore sounds awesome.

Spoiler: Saw setup - credit to Shiny

No Night KP. Mod RNGs one key to be given between all non-trapped players; this key is lost at EOD. At the beginning of the day, mod announces who receives the key. Keys are used by messaging the mod your choice; mod will reveal who is saved, but will not reveal who used the key. Players cannot be saved from the head-trap twice. 5 min days (at least). Traps will NOT trigger during a formal; if traps remain on players after the formal is voted/rescinded (assuming 3 min after day starts), it will trigger. If the game goes to a F3, there will be no traps.

Mafia:

- Jigsaw - Picks two of any players (including self) starting n0; when day begins, they wake up with a head-trap (announced). Traps still on players three minutes after day begins will trigger and kill the players. PLAYERS KILLED THIS WAY DO NOT HAVE ALIGNMENT FLIPS. If Jigsaw dies, one of the Pigs are randomly selected to become new Jigsaw.
- Pig - Once per game, he can deny the distribution of the RNG key for that day. This power is NOT LOST upon turning into Jigsaw.
- Amanda Young - Full Lost Wolf. If trapped and saved, she IMMEDIATELY becomes a Pig and is added to Mafia night chat, gaining her own use of the Pig’s power. If both Jigsaw and Pig die before she is ‘activated,’ town wins.

Town:

- Detective Matthews - Parity Cop (n1 first check)
- Detective Kerry - Has one key that can be used to save someone. This key can be used to save someone who has already been saved. If trapped, cannot use key on herself.
- 5 VT

This is the setup I've played a few times (format is different - we play with video cameras in a group call). Essentially, the takeaway is that Jigsaw cannot trap themselves, but they

can

trap other mafia (the lost wolf or their known partner). While I'm mentioning it, mafia fairly often

do

trap their partners, probably above rand. However, this setup appears to have more agenda when trapped, indicated by flavor ("due to choices made by BM, Elsa died") and it sounds pretty OP to be able to trap mafia and still have them kill town. And, on that note, I doubt mafia chooses

elsa

as the threat to kill (unless BM didn't have a choice?), another reason indicating BM town.

[Eddie Cane]

Give scum the hard choice of whether they wanna let him live for another 2 nights

With the current pace of night kills, unless I'm miscounting tomorrow is lylo if we mislynch today...

[Eddie Cane]

I think your slot is extremely mafia. You should full claim with bonus points on how quick you do.

[Eddie Cane]

I've never played with Bingle. Is he polarized?

[Eddie Cane]

You have, Eddie. I'm a public Jingle alt.

Oh. Then yes, you're good at mafia. No, you're not very polarized.

Give scum the hard choice of whether they wanna let him live for another 2 nights

With the current pace of night kills, unless I'm miscounting tomorrow is lylo if we mislynch today...

Press X to Doubt.

2 myslynches to MYLO is insane balance wise, and a two shot vig died last night, so presumably we have fewer KPN now. I'm not sure why you even say this.

4v10

Night 1 there was 3 kp. Night 2 there was 2. Scum get 2 additional traps from MT. Lynch to 9, average 2 kills to 7. lynch to 6, average 2 kills to 4, 4:4 game over. It is possible there will be less night kills n4 (1), but its also possible there will be 3 tonight with the extra traps. I don't understand how this concept is complicated.

[Eddie Cane]

Any chance I can get access to the consensus reads list and the most recent claims list?

Dave's in the game so the latter exists. I'd be shocked if there weren't reads lists on a 100 page game.

I posted a reads list 2 or so pages ago, MT did about 5 pages ago. I'm a replace in so mine matters less, and MT is extremely town imo so his reads are a good starting point. MT is a widely town read slot who thinks ABR is very town, and BM is a widely town read slot who thinks ABR is scum, but most other reads are fairly consensus.

[Eddie Cane]

@eddie why would u lie that i am easy to read.

also i should really be more involved in this game since i was some what following around.

considering just sheeping abr or eddie here rn.
Don't really have scumreads.

Anyone want to jam?

You're easy to read to me and if you're town, please care more.

My votes for today are Bingle > Drixx > Molla, I think. I would hear a case on Dave, Piss, or Fire. Fire is sliding down lightly and my reasons for townreading Ank might be bad, Ircher and Bingle have not changed my reads.

[Eddie Cane]

@ABR are you going to reply to my post?

[Eddie Cane]

Yeah, much happier here:

VOTE: Dave

No mechanics, not a lot of nonmechanics, a lot of NAI.

EC, talk to me about this MT townread, cause I'm not seeing it.

Their interactions very early game with momo did not feel like partners, it was super awkward in an unpartnery way. More relevant, most of the game I've read fully has been d3 stuff, and the way MT handled ABR vs BM felt very town. I'll word my reply to that situation like this: BM and MT are never partners, MT looks good if its TvT for trying to pivot to a new target, and if ABR is scum MT could be a partner defending but that's a preflip and you wouldnt lynch MT first. I have never played with the dude before but he felt very natural during that whole spat and it didnt feel like trying to buy town cred imo.

[Eddie Cane]

@ABR are you going to reply to my post?

Quote it.

I do not have computer access right now so quoting is a pain. I replied to you asking what I thought you should respond to and a bunch of other stuff about you and it went unacknowledged. I would rather a response of some kind, such as telling me why I'm wrong or admitting I'm right. But specifically, one thing I asked was why you professed certainty about Blake being scum early in the day, and its transitioned to other pushes now? Particularly because I disagreed with the Blake read.

[Eddie Cane]

VOTE: Firebringer

consider that me jamming with you woof

vecna is jsut scumreading me from previous slot apparently. Till he starts individually scumreading me, im not interested in this.

In TM I scum read you pretty hard because I associate you having more content with your scum game, combined with general apathy towards the alignment. It felt like RC was scripting posts and you were adding in a trolly flair. Here, the apathy part seems a bit set in, and as somebody else who just repped in as town I'm not seeing why you replaced in in the first place if not to post. I just played on a very active team mafia team with Blake and have a lot of insight about how they play mafia, and their apathetic play this game felt more like town Blake in a game they aren't enjoying, and they are more likely to replace there as town I think, especially with town being likely losing atm. But in the schadd game we just played you felt very (trolly) town to me d1, and I want you to reassure my feelings here. Mainly, I really dont get how you could town read Molla? And I dont think you responded to my question about that.

[Eddie Cane]

Unvote, Vote: ABR

That's all I've got in me at the moment. Probably not back on until Tuesday.

I need you to explain the Drixx town read if you aren't going to respond to anything else.

[Eddie Cane]

I'm going to

UNVOTE:

Partly out of respect for Jingle. I don't think Jingle himself sounds scummy, but he's not polarized and Dany was very scum imo and had a scummy replacement so not sure if I can overlook that. I may end up revoting, but want to review some things.

[Eddie Cane]

As I said, I just played TM with Ank and we had a discord server with thousands of messages. I understand how she plays quite well I think now, and already read her fairly well. During the Large Theme she was town, town was in a similarly bad situation (I think actually on d3 too), and she was very apathetic and low content and wanted to replace. Tom and I had to talk her into staying. This game mirrors her apathy of that one fairly well imo - https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=150&t=81773 the content level is higher, but most of it is directly prompted by myself, as well as a bit of Tom and Dann. https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... &start=200 is the only scum game from Alyssa I'm familiar with firsthand, but her play there feels very different from here, with it being much more fluid and, well, good. This game is

also

different from her when I've normally seen her as town, but it fits with my image of how her brain scans games, and the apathetic replace out even from a null pov is more likely to come from town when town is losing. I've looked over her iso a few times, and there were a few specific posts that somewhat pinged town. One interesting thing I would note, is that as far as I can tell she lists momo as town in her big reads list (#512) (at a time momo was pretty widely town read I think, which in itself is fine), and did not really acknowledge his existence outside of responding to quotes from other people until she voted him in #1398. According to vcs this is around or slightly after when wagons swinged to momo, but I don't know gamestate at the time so maybe thats wrong. Ank seems like the kind of player to overly theater rather than not acknowledge partners, but I wish I could have questioned her on what changed (again - unless gamestate stuff I'm missing), or if the vc is deceptive and scum!ank just wanted to get in on the wagon before it inevitably went through.

As an aside,

I can tell you with absolute confidence that the way Momo acted towards ABR in that PT, is NOT the way scum acts towards a partner.

what...

[Eddie Cane]

Fuck, my reads are all over the place

tbh I forgot GL was even in this game

[Eddie Cane]

if you want people to stop scumreading you, do stuff worth townreading?

Just sitting there indignant is doing nothing to help your case buddy

Yeah we're just past the point where the effort is worth it. Sorry to be so blunt. I could spend all night reading and make all sorts of notes and I'm still on the list of people the scum hope to mislynch. If I'm eating a lynch then I'd rather do it while there's a chance it doesn't end the game in a scum win.

why must you always play like this Drixx

why

I don't always play like this, but when I do it's because I'm busy and people have silly expectations.

When we last played, we hard pushed each other for a long time, as both town. You had a very high time commitment to that game. Sure that was like 2 years ago and you may have a different schedule now, but I don't understand how asking for your reads or for you to loosely follow a game you signed up for is a silly expectation. If you want sniper questions instead of shotgun questions, then why not just sure the reads you want to and/or have any substance on? I don't get it.

[Eddie Cane]

I dunno. I don't think this game is winnable if we miss today based on night kill amounts and average strength of players. Happy birthday GL! But I really wish people would try more. Skimming this thread I got the impression BM has had the iron fist of control on this game, and he's barely interacted with me or anyone since I've subbed in despite direct questions. Its frustrating.

[Eddie Cane]

Please dont judge Fire based on his 'content' or 'contributions'

wtf is this shit

based on the bell curve you swear too much for it to be an effective argumentation style

can you fucking explain why ank's shit was so fucking scummy?

[Eddie Cane]

I do not have her as my top tier of town, and would not object to her lynch like I would, say, Morning Tweet. On my first read after subbing in I thought she was pretty likely town, faded a bit as I got a lot of town reads, and tbh developed a stronger read on her while writing that post. But yea, I think being on a team with someone is even better than hydraing with them, because you actually get to see how they solve a game "on their own" rather than "with" you. After TM18 I didn't get Giga/Katy, JJ, nor Transcend (rip) wrong again

ever

as far as I remember. So to use less words (I get rambly at 5 AM after drinking lightly) I think Ank is town. She is not super town, but she is more likely town.

Bingle's line about MT was weird to me, I have no idea. I can't empathize with the read at all, MT was townier than BM, ABR, and everybody else during that whole exchange to me, on top of just being unlikely with momo. And the post he quoted seemed pretty NAI. I think that question is player dependent and IDK Jingle that well other than respecting his play. I think Dany is incredibly scummy, so that's where I'm basing that read on, but if Jingle is a cop and we mislynch him today... I dunno, I might be pussying out.

I agree a lot of people are being townie. I am sort of going between Drixx and Bingle for the day. Dave feels like a coin flip every game I play with him, but by the amount of townie people in the game, he's a possible hit. I find scum best with real time interactions and people are barely around real time. There are 10 town and it takes 8 to kill (evens suck). If we take BM as town (something I am not sure of atp), that's one vote out of commission on ABR. Does this feel like a game where all town are going to align and kill scum? No, so either scum needs to bus for no reason (luckily pretty common on ms2020) or I / somebody else who's town need to lead a confident lynch on scum and shovel votes through. I am trying to develop a super confident scum read, and that is sort of Bingle but if this is game is probably a loss otherwise, its definitely a wash if we lynch a cop today, so I'm sort of backing off that unless I can't find another confident scum to push.

[Eddie Cane]

To expand on that:

Town firebringer likes to bring subtle trolling and joy that helps town to solve the gamestate and garner good discussion. Its always in there from my experience.

What he's doing here is just a too scummy to be scum gambit, and he's sabotaging our efforts, hoping we'll think "thats just firebringer".

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p11770582

This is FB 2 months ago, and doesnt seem super different from here. Can you link me a past game you were town and lynched scum FB?

[Eddie Cane]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go

And this is the last game I played with scum Fire. So I would like a link to comparable meta to this if you're going to push him off meta.

[Eddie Cane]

ohh I also think bbmolla is town btu i said that right when i joined. Not really changed.

Can u please explain doggo

[Eddie Cane]

ohh I also think bbmolla is town btu i said that right when i joined. Not really changed.

Can u please explain doggo

If you arent going to participate I'm gonna stop defending your slot, jsyk

[Eddie Cane]

Do you intend to respond to me?

[Eddie Cane]

It is so frustrating to have no player willing to engage live, cant call people scummy dodging it if everyone does....

[Eddie Cane]

BM's town read of Drixx, which seems like nonsense, is my current flavor.

[Eddie Cane]

Almost50 is TOWN - meta
Drixx is TOWN - open post reveal of hood, and subsequent near-obsession with hood, as well as general inquisitive tone reads strongly town.
Blake Belladonna is PROBABLY TOWN - meta
Gamma Emerald is TOWN LEAN - marginal, but townie vibes from ISO so far.

Remaining suspects:

Pine*
momo*
Morning Tweet
Elsa Jay
VaultDweller
Vecna
Hectic
iDanyboy
GeorgeBailey
davesaz
farside22
BBmolla
GuiltyLion
pisskop
Albert B. Rampage
xtoxm

He's had the Drixx town read since here, with their only interaction before being Drixx pushing him (idk the details didnt read this part of the game), and Drixx had the worst popin during BM vs ABR. I want him to explain why he has it maintained the whole game.

On the BM note I also had a few other things to push him on but it's been radio silence.

[Eddie Cane]

I'm not pushing Drixx with that post, though I dont see how pushing Drixx would be unwise.

[Eddie Cane]

It's not like I haven't posted things that occurred to me ... it's that loud voices dismissed those things and want to push the idea that I'm doing literally nothing. I never do literally nothing.

Can we lynch Battle Mage? I'm getting super duper scum vibes there.

Can you explain this, for starters?

[Eddie Cane]

VOTE: Morning Tweet

I would much prefer Dave to Fire, fwiw. Where are your overall reads at rn?

[Eddie Cane]

Sorry that's at GL, the Molla naked vote I was going to question but decided its better for the thread for me to ask less :>

[Eddie Cane]

VOTE: Davesaz

[Eddie Cane]

Can anyone, preferably the naked votes, tell me why davesaz is scummy?

A lot of people are townie and he is hard null, which makes him more likely scum. I also like who I'm voting with.

[Eddie Cane]

Sorry, got very busy. Only skimmed up right now

I want EC/Vecna thoughts on dave's claim and what to do in light of it. I might wanna go for the no hood scum and lynch Molla

UNVOTE:

Dave rolled investigative in TM2020 a couple months ago, good point of reference. I prefer Bingle to Molla though.

[Eddie Cane]

If ABR and BM are scum together i'd lose my shit

Why? The more I read the game the more this feels plausible

that anger I read as very genuine from ABR had is not something scum gets from a partner distancing.

[Eddie Cane]

Pagetop
VOTE: Battle Mage

VOTE: Bingle

[Eddie Cane]

I'm probably not moving my vote today unless its needed to not no lynch

[Eddie Cane]

Dunno if anyone follows survivor, but damn

[Eddie Cane]

Vecna has requested replacement.

Interesting timing.

Vecna replaced out of the other game he is currently in as well, so I imagine it means nothing for his alignment. Hope he's alright though.

[Eddie Cane]

@SirCakes

can we get a votecount please?

[Eddie Cane]

I think the way Bingle is playing makes him not with Dave or Drixx, not theatery.

[Eddie Cane]

I have a pretty strong preference for Bingle over Drixx.

[Eddie Cane]

I have a pretty strong preference for Bingle over Drixx.

i share this preference

I see no evidence.

What does 'evidence' mean?

[Eddie Cane]

I think the way Bingle is playing makes him not with Dave or Drixx, not theatery.

Dave gives us more information.
If Dave flips Town then we vote Bingle.
Simple.

Flipping scum gives us more information.

[Eddie Cane]

I think I've been very clear I don't town read Drixx. I think Bingle slot is more likely to flip mafia, so that is where I'm voting. Jingle's insistence to lynch in the hood while also professing a town read on me makes it unlikely he'd be with Drixx or Dave, because the lynch in the hood always lands on one of those two if it isn't him. Although as I'm typing it, he is a better player than either of them, so I guess its

possible

he'd just rather get the cred off a scum lynch and try to endgame. Shrug. I don't think I'm changing my mind on Jingle being the most likely mafia at this point.

[Eddie Cane]

I think the way Bingle is playing makes him not with Dave or Drixx, not theatery.

Dave gives us more information.
If Dave flips Town then we vote Bingle.
Simple.

Flipping scum gives us more information.

Dave Flipping Scum gives us hella information.
If Bingle flips Town we accomplish nothing.

i hella need you to explain this

[Eddie Cane]

I felt like Dave being Town makes Bingle Scum

Dave Town -> Bingle scum

Bingle being Town doesn’t make Dave Scum.

Bingle town -> Dave town or scum

[Eddie Cane]

It’s like you seem to only care to small details to prove a point to something that isn’t there.

I care to prove that your posting is nonsense. Dave is not "higher info" than Bingle, which is your entire case. If that's a small detail, sure. Not that info lynching on day 3 isn't nonsense to begin with.

As you aren’t even questioning my vote on you.

I think you're a pretty annoying player, you clearly haven't read any of the game so your opinion/reads don't matter to me, and with 2 days to deadline your slot is too widely town read to get lynched today so sorting your alignment doesn't really matter. Why waste thread space?

[Eddie Cane]

While sure Dave Town (-) Bingle Scum 75%
Bingle Town (-) Dave Scum 45%

And I am going out, but by the way, this is not how math works.

[Eddie Cane]

Like, who is GB? I dont dont remember a GB playing.

GeorgeBailey

fuck gb, tbh.

And at a glance, eddie hasnt been a pillar of town either.

Yes, I wish I could be as townie as random useless popins every 48 hours.

[Eddie Cane]

It’s like you seem to only care to small details to prove a point to something that isn’t there.

I care to prove that your posting is nonsense. Dave is not "higher info" than Bingle, which is your entire case. If that's a small detail, sure. Not that info lynching on day 3 isn't nonsense to begin with.

As you aren’t even questioning my vote on you.

I think you're a pretty annoying player, you clearly haven't read any of the game so your opinion/reads don't matter to me, and with 2 days to deadline your slot is too widely town read to get lynched today so sorting your alignment doesn't really matter. Why waste thread space?

While it might be true You don’t seem to be too concerned upon me voting you.
What happens if others started sheeping me?

I'd laugh

Eddie was also on both Dave AND Bingle.
So with the chance both Dave and Bingle are Town, Eddie is Scum.
Although Morning also did the same as Eddie so I guess Morning/Eddie would have 1-2 Scum in that sense.

Building wagons is townie. Neither wagon has gone close to lynch, either, so its meaningless.

I’m confused by your post here.
Are you attempting to shade Pisskop?
Because that’s what I think your trying to do.
If your ISO is just filled with shade like this your slot can go bye bye.
And when you Shade like that you clearly don’t believe random pop ins are Townie so you must not Town read anyone who’s doing that.
So let me ask you this, what makes someone Townie for you?

Like what do you consider a Townie motivation.

Then after you answer that explain to all of us here why you didn’t bring that up as a response and instead decided to bring up Shade.

I will let you pick one stupid question to ask me, not 5. Also, you can ISO me and let me know if you think its filled with shade.

[Eddie Cane]

Then vote me.

[Eddie Cane]

You sure are confident.

I'm mildly confident. I unvoted earlier to see if I could find a scum read of similar strength on one of the players I respect less. I couldn't.

This is a very good point.

Is this trolling again?

[Eddie Cane]

I don't think my slots been trapped.

[Eddie Cane]

Vote Drixx. We can chase the big fish later like Eddie Cane.

I'm good with this.

Seriously?

[Eddie Cane]

Vote Drixx. We can chase the big fish later like Eddie Cane.

I'm good with this.

Seriously?

Not the Eddie part just the Drixx part.

Was gonna say..

I'll be around to change votes if needed to not no lynch. Bingle > Drixx = Molla > Piss = Dave.

[Eddie Cane]

too widely town read? I disagree, I'm ok with lynching him, largely on merit of how much I scumread VD, the value of lynching outside the hoods, and this haphazard open.

I did not get a town read Vecna catching up but I dont think the votes exist, deadlines in like 2 days

[Eddie Cane]

What are your reads right now, Jingle?

[Eddie Cane]

At this rate, we're gonna No Lynch...

I just figured we were going to chucklefuck around and then eventually lynch me because it's actually an objectively solid lynch from every town PoV except mine.

All of the wagons outside of my hood are pretty garbagey.

Then Pick one of Eddie/Battle Mage/Icher/Firebringer and I’ll Sheep you.
There’s definitely at minimum 1 Scum in there.

I laughed

[Eddie Cane]

I'm vla-ish for a few days, please don't quick lynch before I get to sort

Due to the Choice made in a Game by Battle Mage last night, Jigsaw's Acolytes have gained a 2-shot factional night kill!

Lol

[Eddie Cane]

Why would scum even put pisskop in a trap? Ircher seemed really obvious town yesterday. I had a lot of townreads on me too

GuiltyLion has night immunity! That was a risk. TSE confirms Vault as town when you kill him. The night choices are sort of weird. Unsure I'd let them change my mind yet though

Depends how much autonomy scum has in picking who's trapped. Piss and TSE were not townie and GL claimed night immune, I can't imagine it's right for any team to pick those 3 if they have complete freedom.

[Eddie Cane]

The amount of night kills that have happened each night seem pretty unbalanced if scum can choose freely every night. I'm not sure, just a theory.

[Eddie Cane]

I also think we might have lost the game regardless of hitting mafia today unless we can slow down the trap deaths. 11 alive, lynch scum to 10. 2 trap deaths + the third from mage goes to 7, 3v4. Lynch scum to 6, 1 trap death (wishful thinking) + 2nd from mage = 2v2, town loss. So BM might have just won the game with that play and it doesnt matter what else happens.

[Eddie Cane]

Is BM ending up in traps that are perfect for someone who values themself highly just a coincidence, though?

See above. But yes, it's possible he's town, and in that world it makes sense. But I think having a town die there is just as good? 4v6 needs virtually all 6 town to be right to kill scum, and still might be a scum win unless we can stop the trap. Numbers wise, need to think about it. I'm going to be doing something a bit later in this day phase, and that will determine if I want to lynch Mage or not today.

I still think you're town, but I'm resetting most of my other reads.

[Eddie Cane]

You notice how hard it's been to lynch Bingle?

[Eddie Cane]

Spoiler: the world with BM as town

town //
Morning Tweet I
VaultDweller - Eric Matthews
Battle Mage II
Bingle
Ircher

likely town //
Pisskop I - Xavier Chavez

in the middle //
Eddie Cain
Albert B. Rampage - Corbett Denlon

yikes //
BBmolla
Firebringer
Davesaz

I probably got some of that written down wrong. im tired

Who would you pick after ABR though. Since I don't buy into the whole flavour thing, the scumteam can still exclude ABR. Ex: BB/Fire/Dave/{Eddie,PK}. It might include him too. Kinda thinking it doesn't, at the very least there's higher odds elsewhere

Then again, if ABR flips town and THATS how we lose, at least you can't be upset with me

I dont understand why your reads posts have tied Bingle's alignments with BM's.

[Eddie Cane]

Give scum the hard choice of whether they wanna let him live for another 2 nights

With the current pace of night kills, unless I'm miscounting tomorrow is lylo if we mislynch today...

Press X to Doubt.

2 myslynches to MYLO is insane balance wise, and a two shot vig died last night, so presumably we have fewer KPN now. I'm not sure why you even say this.

4v10

Night 1 there was 3 kp. Night 2 there was 2. Scum get 2 additional traps from MT. Lynch to 9, average 2 kills to 7. lynch to 6, average 2 kills to 4, 4:4 game over. It is possible there will be less night kills n4 (1), but its also possible there will be 3 tonight with the extra traps. I don't understand how this concept is complicated.

[Eddie Cane]

I actually believe its pretty likely town has already lost this game even if we hit scum today, which has sapped my desire to care.

[Eddie Cane]

Everyone and their mother suspects my slot.

I wish this was true. Yesterday getting votes on you was like pulling teeth. It was virtually just myself, GL, and MT, and MT is not pushing you today.

[Eddie Cane]

Also worth noting I was at L-3 for quite a while without being lynched. Which suggests at least 1 or 2 of Titus/BBmolla/Firebringer are scum (otherwise they could theoretically have hammered).

And ABR has been l-4 for a significant amount of time as well (with you and mod confirmed town voting). So there actually is most likely a difference between you and ABR, and I don't get MT/others' insistence that that isn't the case. Its been, like, 24+ hours, and I'm pretty sure everyone's been online.

@MT, Piss never voted Battle Mage I don't think. Just pushed there.

[Eddie Cane]

Spoiler: every player who posted on the page I repped in, sans mod.

Youre being run up in high pace bingle and need to fullclaim

I think your slot is extremely mafia. You should full claim with bonus points on how quick you do.

I pretty much agree with you dave yea

Ideally id like to give iDany-Bingie another day and reevaluate. If we mislynch town!idany down the line we got more info too

hia Bingie!

The mod stated there could be multiples, I think? So a CC doesn't automatically mean one is each alignment.

That's not the basis of my hesitation though, un-CC'd isn't essential. Claims just make me stop in general, mostly because of golden rule and hating it when the shoe is on the other foot and people don't stop when I'm the town who trueclaims. My TM game is a perfect example. A CC would reduce that hesitation but would just leave me with a 1v1 to solve.

The "only in the Police hood" thing is an aspect that makes fakeclaim a real possibility for me. If scum needed to eliminate someone from "police" at a critical juncture with a fake guilty it would be the best kind of cover. Plus it's good cover for not investigating scummy people outside that hood. And I certainly don't see town in iDany's posting. I would have said that it's just as likely to be fake as real, but I think we're on the same page there.

VOTE: idanyboy

As a note, most of these are still alive.

Everyone suspected me, no one was willing to vote me because my predecessor claimed cop.

How many pushed you vs pushed iDany and then backed off when you subbed in?

Oh I think you're right eddie, PK didnt actually vote

Yeah if BM/Vault/ABR are all town, the game would have ended huh?

I think BM has a decent chance of being scum, but coordinating 4 or 5 votes for a quick hammer is hard.

co-ordinating votes to quick hammer in LyLo as scum is incredibly easy - I literally just won a game as scum doing that.

Pretty much. I dunno if MS allows discord pinging maf partners but either way, scum who know they're in lylo (should) check the site frequently, and I think every player has posted since the votes have been out.

[Eddie Cane]

@BM, Vault is hard confirmed town.

[Eddie Cane]

@BM, Vault is hard confirmed town.

...I know. Why are you saying this?

3 scum and 1 town agreeing on a wagon? I don't love the sound of it. Especially when 2 of those 3 have already agreed on a wagon, which you don't like.

[Eddie Cane]

VOTE: Titus

[Eddie Cane]

This has been mechanically confirmed for pages, people pushing against the nar

pedit- wtf

[Eddie Cane]

So Piss, Fire, Dave, BM? Damn. Piss' claim felt super town.

[Eddie Cane]

Hahahahaha

Dude, idk why you're laughing. I thought you were with Titus with how hard you were dissuading the confirmed TvS.

[Eddie Cane]

Eddie did a great job talking me off Firebringer on D3, that was really well played there. And pisskop snowed me in the game and played it really smart

GL, MT, and ABR, and slightly Vecna were the players that I was afraid of, so I tried to tailor my catchup to pocket them. Bingle had most of the solve (sans me), but he was not worrysome because I felt pretty strongly I could case and mislynch him if needed. All 4 of you had fairly good reads, and BM did to his credit also push Piss at EoD. All of the other roles were 2/3 shot so I assumed Bingle was either out of shots or only had 1 left.

Fun game! Sorry for the town who were frustrated, but this was a very entertaining game from a scum PoV.

10/10 setup design and 9.5/10 modding, thanks SirCakez, well done

! Setup design refers to flavor, traps, etc, balance and swinginess might be a little off but I don't super think so. This was a high power town, and town did not use their PRs (vig/cops/etc) or lynches (other than day 1) on scum, so I don't think the KP is crazy high. I'd argue slightly scumsided overall, nothing crazy. Swinginess is pretty normal in a large game with a lot of roles.

[Eddie Cane]

I'm really sad we didn't get to scum together eddie

me too

If you had held out another day or two... but at least i got fire who's also cool