Micro 935 | Chain of Command | Game Over!

[Drew-Sta]

Hello all!

[Drew-Sta]

I do remember you! Long time no see, buddy.

[Drew-Sta]

I sadly can’t make that promise lol.

[Drew-Sta]

if you haven't completely solved the game and won us the game by day 2 ill have no choice but to lynch you

no pressure

Sounds like a plan.

VOTE: OkaPika

He’s scum, gaiz.

[Drew-Sta]

#giggles

[Drew-Sta]

Just went back to that game. My RVS was you there too lol.

[Drew-Sta]

hi drew-sta! do you remember me? because i remember you!

I do remember you! Long time no see, buddy.

for those interested:

micro 349: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=57625

mini 1582: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=58162

Oh my gosh. I had completely forgotten Micro 349. I must go back and reread it for the lols.

Hello all!

by my count, you opened with 'hello' in mini 1582 and mini 1593, both as mafia. there was no 'hello' in mini 1591, micro 349, newbie 1537, newbie 1513, newbie 1500 and mini 1578 as town and micro 366 as mafia.

Ok, so this poses an interesting issue. I react with an OMGUS, it looks like scum pretending to be town. I react aggressively and suggest meta on my games is simply coincidence and it looks like scumsplaining. I ignore it, and it looks like scum avoiding the issue.

You've painted me into a corner with meta that is about 6 years old (as I've only just started playing again). That's a fairly calculated move.

[Drew-Sta]

what if we dont look at any of my old games

lol.

--

Small aside. In 349 I said 'G'day' (12) which is synonymous to 'hello'. I'm not trying to make a big deal of Euphony's post but it seems disingenuous to make such a statement.

[Drew-Sta]

33 and 37 are hec-shiki and unserious; clearly my shiki-impersonation is just in a different realm.

Ok, so this poses an interesting issue. I react with an OMGUS, it looks like scum pretending to be town. I react aggressively and suggest meta on my games is simply coincidence and it looks like scumsplaining. I ignore it, and it looks like scum avoiding the issue.

You've painted me into a corner with meta that is about 6 years old (as I've only just started playing again). That's a fairly calculated move.

You've highlighted possible ways you

could

react to this, but what is your genuine reaction?

DoctarCoke, what alarms you about my partner's 22 meta analysis?

Hard claiming

Field Marshal

( -_･) ︻デ═一 ▸Hectic

The point is I’m not. I’m trying to work out why you’d do that and you’re intending to use it for.

[Drew-Sta]

The point is I’m not. I’m trying to work out why you’d do that and you’re intending to use it for.

shiki is big on meta; she's metaed most of the people in the playerlist. You and oogle boogle have scum-indicative entrances so far. The oogle one we're going to wait a little on before revealing what it is.

You're a starting point to vote on. Do you think we have ill intentions?

-Hectic

I think basing your entire case on 6 year old meta then justifying it is... of interest. It sounds like you’re casting a shadow over me (and Oka) without even trying to independently verify whether we are town.

That’s unwise at best and will lead you to tunnel, and cause us problems as town down the track.

With regard to your intentions, casting doubt appears to be your aim. I find that problematic.

UNVOTE: Oka

[Drew-Sta]

I can tell you're reading into it too much by calling it a "case". It's literally just a starting point.

Are you unvoting Oogle Boogle because of what I mentioned about him?

J**^ Hectic

What is it you want, Mary? What do you want? You want the moon? Just say the word and I'll throw a lasso around it and pull it down.

Hey. That's a pretty good idea. I'll give you the moon, Mary.

[Drew-Sta]

Whoops, meant to post something.

To first quote - probably over reading it, but I want to hear why you felt the need to post it.

I unvoted as we’re past RVS and my vote was not serious.

George - watched Bruce Almighty last night, and those quotes were in it.

Classic Movie! - GB

[Drew-Sta]

Ok, so this poses an interesting issue. I react with an OMGUS, it looks like scum pretending to be town. I react aggressively and suggest meta on my games is simply coincidence and it looks like scumsplaining. I ignore it, and it looks like scum avoiding the issue.

what do you think your reaction here ^ looks like?

You've painted me into a corner with meta that is about 6 years old (as I've only just started playing again). That's a fairly calculated move.

I think basing your entire case on 6 year old meta then justifying it is... of interest. It sounds like you’re casting a shadow over me (and Oka) without even trying to independently verify whether we are town.

That’s unwise at best and will lead you to tunnel, and cause us problems as town down the track.

With regard to your intentions, casting doubt appears to be your aim. I find that problematic.

you've mentioned the age of those games twice now, as if i would not have used more recent data were it available to me. my intentions were to bring us out of rvs. the two things from rvs i found of most interest were okapoka's seemingly intentional greetings tell and your hello. since my read on okapoka's opening was based almost entirely on menalque's opening this game:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p11637050

it seemed better to draw attention to your hello, to see how you and others would react.

For your first question, I answered this in 59?

For your second question, I've mentioned the age because I personally find it odd. What I find most unusual is you haven't done this to anyone else. Can I ask why?

Meta is meta. If you're going to form an opinion on that, I can't stop you, but you seem more interested in what has happened as opposed to what is happening. May I ask why you place great emphasis on meta?

You've also not expressed why you have utilised it. Do you think I am scum because I said hello and that seemingly correlates?

UNVOTE:

@Drew; How would you differentiate "casting a shadow" vs scumhunting?

It sounds like you’re casting a shadow over me (and Oka) without even trying to independently verify whether we are town.

This is opinion, firstly.

It's a case of optics. casting a shadow is calling into question another players allegiance in a negative fashion. This influences how other players (most particularly town) view that player. It colours opinion. I consider it something a mafia player is more likely to do as it shifts attention onto a player with 'evidence' they can stand behind if it ends in a lynch or NK.

Scum hunting is actively trying to work out why a player is doing something and determining their intent. This is a positive behaviour. I consider this something more likely that a town player will do.

[Drew-Sta]

BTW Kanna, casting a shadow is what I think they have done, and I believe you can differentiate.

[Drew-Sta]

zzz

ok, they're casting a shadow. why aren't you voting them then?

this was @drew if that was unclear

Honestly? Because I’m genuinely confused at why they would do that straight out of RVS. It makes no sense. This doesn’t benefit them.

I’m still mulling over it.

[Drew-Sta]

1. What do you mean regarding standing behind evidence if it results in a nightkill, Drew?

2. Also, why do you assume we can't scumhunt by dropping this meta and seeing how you react to it, in the same vein you'd answer a question that we've asked? It's a shadow, but it's a comforting one, the sort of one you'd relish to find in the middle of the sahara. I've found your reaction so far kinda scummy; your tone completely changed and you think what we've done is anti-town and can't decide whether or not to scumread us for it, but I'm unsure if your reaction would be the same if the meta was about someone else.

3. In 53 it looks like you're assessing ways scum!you could react and how they'd all look bad, rather than just be honest and disregard it as negligible really old meta like most would do.

€^^* Hectic

1. If you're scum (I'm not convinced you are - but your initial behaviour reads like it), then if you form a lynch train on someone as scum or NK them, you can simply claim faulty logic for your read. It's generating your excuse for yourself prior to the behaviour happening. That's called premeditation. Which is a scum behaviour.

2. On an anecdotal level, utilising meta 6 years old assumes I play the same way I did 6 years ago. It's faulty logic. So, on a base level, I think you're approaching things wrong. It's also weird that you seem focussed on my reaction yet haven't applied this to others, who have played games more recently. Especially since you then suggest you have problems with Oka, who has played games recently, but didn't undertake the same level of scrutiny.

Also, the tone changed because we went from RVS to actual mafia. Wouldn't you expect that?

3. I also said that was one of the wayI could react. You could also call me out on it too. It seems you're saying this because you're unhappy how I'm reacting and instead trying to expose the reality of your process.

I can see Drew-Sta being frustrated as town but evaluating ways in which he

could

react and how we might be trying to paint him as scummy no matter what he says feels defensive, instead of just reacting normally. I need to discuss this point with shiki, maybe I'm dumb.

Alduskkel's mason game

++/------- Hectic

So you say I'm reacting scummy then read me as reacting town? I'm unsure what you're saying now.

I don't think you're dumb. I think your approach is misguided though.

For your first question, I answered this in 59?

my question was:

what do you think your reaction here ^ looks like?

your answer in 59 was:

The point is I’m not. I’m trying to work out why you’d do that and you’re intending to use it for.

1. it is strange to me that you focused on what your reaction would look like to everyone else, and then when asked what you thought your reaction looked like to us, you said you had already answered that by more or less saying you were wary of my intentions, which does not answer the question.

What I find most unusual is you haven't done this to anyone else. Can I ask why?

2. while looking over your games i noticed a potentially alignment indicative pattern. i did not notice a comparable pattern in anyone else's posts so far this game.

shiki, i find it a bit surprising you haven't mentioned my opening (which has been used in multiple games of mine), how come?

i am aware that it is a running joke between iconeum, menalque and you. it seemed likely to me that you would have used it regardless of alignment.

1. No, I said I hadn't reacted, really. Your questions don't lead me to believe you're scum but you haven't started off positively in my mind.

To be clear - I reacted cautiously. Because as town, your post poses a threat to town.

2. So why not post about theirs? Why did you single me out?

and so how do you feel about me bb

uncomfortable, mostly.

Why?

[Drew-Sta]

BTW Kanna, casting a shadow is what I think they have done, and I believe you can differentiate.

I kinda get what you're saying, but i'm not seeing it. I do know what shading is and I think it comes with bad faith which

I don't really see with Euphony

Out of interest, do you think *your* comments on them are shading?

Bold is possible, which is why I haven't voted yet for them.

To the second question: No. My interactions are refutational, and in giving my defence, I've identified what they're doing and the consequences of it. You've independently agreed it creates a problem ('it comes with bad faith', to use your own words), but I've just been the one who identified it.

Exposing an issue is not reversing an issue e.g. me showing something and exposing what it is (good or bad) is different to me turning that back on someone.

The inverse to this is arguing for someone to be town. That would be casting a ray of light (to continue with my imagery) and is a positive action. The issue is there is again intent: are they doing it because the person is showing clear town markers, or are they doing it because they

know

they're town and it's an easy way to get people onside. It poses its own problems but is different.

I think where I'm landing is Eup is trying to stir the pot (which they've succeeded in doing) and moved us out of RVS, which I

think

was their intent.

[Drew-Sta]

so drew

why aren't you doing a positive action and helping us move the game forward by voting quantum or someone

QQ is active lurking. So far that does raise questions.

Your glib posting also raises questions.

Why are you voting QQ?

[Drew-Sta]

QQ is going after LHF

Now some may argue I'm going after LHF, but ehh who cares. What's more interesting is a general hesitancy for people to actually vote anyone.

so why don't you just want to cast a vote? nothing like a vote to make the game more interesting

LHF?

I use my vote carefully as I think town needs strong voting to win. We've also just started and plenty of time. Why rush to a lynch? Are you happy to waste a day and move us to lynch/

[Drew-Sta]

QQ is going after LHF

Now some may argue I'm going after LHF, but ehh who cares. What's more interesting is a general hesitancy for people to actually vote anyone.

so why don't you just want to cast a vote? nothing like a vote to make the game more interesting

LHF?

I use my vote carefully as I think town needs strong voting to win. We've also just started and plenty of time. Why rush to a lynch? Are you happy to waste a day and move us to lynch/

low hanging fruit, aka very easy targets that look reasonable to vote ~at least on a surface level

anyways, i don't doubt that you can parse through a thread of lots of talking and no action to get some reads but as it stands in today's meta, people need wagons and votes to analyze and well uh, this is not a 1v9 game

nobody said anything about death, although it is nice to always have the fear of a lolhammer to raise the stakes but better to get the ball rolling than wait until the deadline does it for us

You say a lot without saying a lot.

Mixed feelings on Drew, leaning not-so-good but willing to see more.

I have a pet theory why scum would want to wagon QQ and I don't think I like this.

VOTE: OkaPoka @Oka, what do you think about Drew so far?

Express your read. And why are you voting Oka if you feeling mixed on me?

I think drew is a relic of the past, its refreshing to be reminded of the ancient way of playing

Good to know time hasn't improved your game

I actually think Drew is town, idk where this is coming from

Why do you believe this?

[Drew-Sta]

don't you mean the other way drew ~i get the comment you say not much but you type so much

No, I said it the way I wanted to say it.

[Drew-Sta]

I think where I'm landing is Eup is trying to stir the pot (which they've succeeded in doing) and moved us out of RVS, which I think was their intent.

my intentions were to bring us out of rvs.

Ok, I missed that post. My apologies.

Express your read.

And why are you voting Oka if you feeling mixed on me?

My Oka read? Not great. His entrance felt weird tonally, and his contributions so far haven't really made him look any better.
I'm not voting you atm because...I've got mixed feelings
What do you think about Oka? What exactly do you mean by the bolded question, do you think I should be voting you?

He's a glib guy from memory. Squirms too when questioned, which is why we lynched him D1 in one of those games I played with him. I remember he didn't stand up to investigation.

My personal belief is people not actively looking or answering clearly are always problematic. Because they're trying to hide behind their writing style. I don't personally deal well with that. And it makes me sceptical. Personally, I would prefer him to drop the silly games and actually begin to critique posts. At that point, we'll be more likely to see what his alignment is by how he creates his arguments.

Re the bolded - I think votes are breadcrumbs, and who you select when you read different people scum is important. Because it shows intent and it shows your contribution to a lynch. There's no way in future days we can win if we aren't able to see the pattern scum forms by their voting habits.

[Drew-Sta]

Re the bolded - I think votes are breadcrumbs, and who you select when you read different people scum is important. Because it shows intent and it shows your contribution to a lynch. There's no way in future days we can win if we aren't able to see the pattern scum forms by their voting habits.

Can you answer the specific question? (Why did you ask that question in particular?) It's very important!

I think the decision why you vote for someone over another when you read them both as suspect is important to understand. Leaving it open means you can reinterpret an action down the track.

For instance, if I say 'I believe X is scum because of Y, and A is scum because of B', then you have a reference point to go back and work out what that person was thinking. If that person changes their view, you have a chance to actually critique the reasons. Thus, down the track you can see if someone has been consistent or if they're simply throwing shade as a way of keeping the lynch pool wide open and thus, not have suspicion laid on them.

Basically, town is always going to be consistent (aside - consistent doesn't mean they won't make mistakes. Just that their mistakes will make sense, if you follow) and scum are always at some level lying because they need to find reasons to lynch town, and thus have to make them up.

Does that help?

I think you should focus less on "ranks" and more on actually sorting people? Ranks aren't correlated with alignments.

I concur. The rank thing is getting old.

[Drew-Sta]

Oka, in my opinion, is trying to ride that line between looking scummy and looking town as a means of making themselves appear a poor NK target.

IMHO.

[Drew-Sta]

Because if they're consistent and look too town-like, they end up getting heat for not being NK'd, in my opinion.

It's a view. I can accept that it isn't shared by everyone.

[Drew-Sta]

But also, the reasons on which they're consistent are in effect a lie. And that's also part of my point. Looking to find those is, in my view, working to find inconsistency with the reality of the game.

[Drew-Sta]

Hey Drew, what do you think of Euphony/Iconeum/Datusi?

Euphony appears to be trying to apply meta to then work out whether this conforms to what they're seeing in the existing game. TBH I don't use meta, which is why I was very wary of them painting me early. I believe they are scum hunting. I've found them and Kanna the most similar to my style of play (analysis and working through methodically). If they are scum, they have not slipped yet to indicate so.

Iconeum is not the type of player I've played with. At least, not often. Jumps all over the shop. Hard to pin down. Calls Euphony scum in 184 and presses them in 185 but calls them part of the town read in 301. I wouldn't call their posting active lurking, but it is definitely an independent and difficult process to understand from an outsiders perspective looking in. I hope it is rendering them the results they want and becomes clearer so we can more accurately determine if they are town or mafia. The wagon they're pushing on Doctor has me concerned but I also think I see what they're doing.

Datusi is engaging people. They've pushed Doctor but I've not seen a firm argument for why (I suspect it is leftover from RVS). Null read again.

No-one sticks out yet. How the Doctor train progresses is what will begin to show us something I think.

[Drew-Sta]

Your posting styles, the lack of grammar and capitalisation, the poor punctuation - my gosh it fucks with my eyes...

Pedit. More dribble for me to sort through and try to understand. Fuck me... /facepalm

[Drew-Sta]

TLDR; I looked through Ico’s meta (Town: Mini Normal 2119, Insect Religion, Scum: Strawberry, Hard Boiled Eggs) and I think this is scum!ico. Scum!Ico focuses on scumreads + feels agendy with pushing (usually on something surface), while town!ico focuses on townreads + feels a lot less agenda-y

Also there is a single direct parallel in strawberry that i find kinda scummy which I didn’t point out at the time (obviously)

VOTE: Iconeum

As said in other posts, this is not a reason to vote Ico. Sorry, but it's lazy and has way too little in the way of proper argument with evidence. Base your vote on what is done here, not in some other game.

Oh and I think DrP is more lynchbait than scum

I agree.

Oh and I think DrP is more lynchbait than scum

what makes you say he's lynchbait

he's just being wagoned ~for reasons that idk just isn't lynchbait or lhf but i am surprised he has 4 votes

You're pushing to see who pushes off and you're baiting to see who will bite. It's fucking lazy.

pepper wagon has been an interesting one so far, no regrets

now if I can just get a hold of Kanna wrt to that vote on me ^^

Why do you think they voted you?

I want an honest answer from you here:

wrt to Mini 2119: did you read my opening posts, or did you actually go thru all

1.000

posts of me there?

i'll give you more feedback after this answer

1. oh nonono. I focused on the earlier posts

and now that we have established that me having townreads is a big part of townreading me, why are you dismissing/ignoring the fact that I have already established an early townblock to work from?

I didn't say scum!you never has townreads, you townblocked me and probably some other people in strawberry, right? I mean you *focus on* on scumreads/pushes which I feel like you're doing with DrP now. It's like the ame/luca tunnel.

1. Fucking lazy. You can't bring in an entire game claiming meta then not cite examples. Throwing shade in a big way. That is a scum-like behaviour.

2. What he's doing with DrP wagon is not what you're saying it is.

tbh as much as i like drew i dunno about giving him the option to choose which wagon to pressure into claiming

but at least this is spicy

I don't dunk without reason.

dont say that ico

u know full well drew sta isn't going to come out of nowhere and dunk you

speaking of, drew sta is online

You're a bit obsessed with me, mate

Your posting styles, the lack of grammar and capitalisation, the poor punctuation - my gosh it fucks with my eyes...

Pedit. More dribble for me to sort through and try to understand. Fuck me... /facepalm

you could just quickhammer me and get it over with

No, as shitty as it is to read through it's getting somewhere.

VOTE: aldus

choo

choo

Not sure you're right there. I think Kanna is the better option. He's waded in I think, believing you're easy to lynch based on your style and threw stinky bait.

VOTE: Kanna

[Drew-Sta]

no i'm trying to figure out why iconeum said "lynch kanna next" when i should pretty much be equally scummy to icon

and then icon switches votes to me so idk even

town are generally a lot quicker to sheepvote or lolvote, where scum usually find the need to explain their vote in greater detail

you did the sheep/lolvote, kanna did a crappy meta read without taking everything into consideration

Yes, that's right. I've been waiting to see who took the bait. Well played.

[Drew-Sta]

so why are you voting me now instead?

To see how Kanna reacts.

[Drew-Sta]

so why are you voting me now instead?

To see how Kanna reacts.

1. why would you say that before kanna reacted
2. i was talking to iconeum

Because Kanna now know’s he has two people watching him and it will make him sweat more in his answer

[Drew-Sta]

And I thought we were out of RVS and Eup tries to drag us right back in...

[Drew-Sta]

Btw I’m at work. I’ll post today as a few things have got my attn.

[Drew-Sta]

Spoiler:

ico/drew/oka/datsi/euph town (ish)

who thinks this is a bad townlist and why?

No, but Euph was using same approach (and doing it before) as Kanna. In terms of bringing meta into the game as a method of throwing shade.

Well, first it seemed like Kanna and I were about equally scummy to Icon (circa pages 13 and 14 or so). Then Icon said "if I get lynched here lynch kanna next" (page 15) which implies Kanna is scummier than me. This is also seen in the reads list later on that page where Kanna is "prob scum" but I'm just "could be scum." Icon then goes on to vote me and says 1 of me and Kanna is scum but probably not both. So why did Icon feel confident enough to say "if I get lynched here lynch kanna next"? That could potentially lead to two town lynches in a row from town-Icon's perspective. If Icon really thinks that one of Kanna and I are scum, then it should be trying to sort which one is the scum, which I don't think is happening. I also don't think it made sense to call Kanna scummier but then switch votes to me -- maybe scum Icon saw me as the easier target?

The fact you keep citing Ico as scum without forming a really good argument is curious. And no, the above is not a good argument. It's basically OMGUS reasoning. Which is a poor foundation to work with. If you think Icon is scum, form an argument on why utilising posts and the like.

how does assuming ico is scum and then evaluating his actions from there make me scummy? maybe i'm just confbiasing or something

because a towny thought process is "hey a person did a thing" -> "is person town or scum because of it"
and you're going "person is scum" -> "this thing that they did means this"

i.e. not "ico voted me" -> "does that vote and its circumstances make him scum or town?"
but "ico is scum" -> "he is voting me because i'm an easier target"

it's not scumhunting

it's bad-faith painting

which yes i know you've said "ico finds kanna more scum than me" but that in of itself is ehhhh because town doesn't always have their vote on their biggest scumread so like

I agree.

i didn't get as much as i wanted but
i'd say icon came out scummier looking
i'm town-leaning on oka for 364
drew gets town points for going the more difficult path of voting kanna
also not related to my vote but 293 doesn't look like it comes from scum:

Oka, in my opinion, is trying to ride that line between looking scummy and looking town as a means of making themselves appear a poor NK target.

IMHO.

like, this kinda looks like PR hunting at first but if it were

actual

PR hunting then drew would have just posted this in the scum PT instead of in the thread

your vote on me is reasonable from an outside perspective, but I don't see anything alignment-indicative about it yet

Why exactly is Icon scummy.

Don't like 349 as a way to justify his L-1 - part of the reason the game was slow was because Aldu was pretty inactive. I agree with Datisi regarding the consistency thing on Ico. Spotting that Drew-Sta thing in 416 pretty towny though.

Why is 364 towny, Aldu?

Happy with DoctarPepper/Alduskkel wagons I think.

----> Hectic

Why are you happy with DP?

The problem I have with QQ now is that I don't know if this is their scum play or if it's just NAI.

have you attempted to investigate this?

Haven't checked if they have finished games so I can't comment on what I have seen so far from him

Bring in meta all you want, but in this game, what gives you concern about QQ?

IMHO, drawing in meta is shaky grounds to base a read on.

I think you and I are very similar, Hectic

I consider this buddying.

this ain't fluff my dude

this is elaborate meta discussion that even i don't understand

and i'm the one that modded strawberry mafia lmao

Yeahhh, not a fan of meta.

I hate to be the guy that tells at clouds and dismisses everything I don't understand as fluff Butz if the shoe fits

Wait, so you're using meta in 449 but aren't a fan of meta in 510? Explain.

I feel like we haven't discussed kanna enough. He has also ignored my vote on him and the posts I've formulated on him. I believe this is avoiding an issue, given he's effectively gone through and answered other posts.

[Drew-Sta]

I feel like we haven't discussed kanna enough. He has also ignored my vote on him and the posts I've formulated on him. I believe this is avoiding an issue, given he's effectively gone through and answered other posts.

I think there's at least 1 bad faith vote/push on me.

Oka probably isn't it, because he used it to advance game by analyzing who followed him and why and is sorting because of it.

Aldus has failed to provide any kind of townie reason to scumread me, and was the one to L-1 me i think. Is reacting very defensively now that pressure backfired, but admittedely i'm also guilty on that.

Kanna otoh, did a meta push on me which I disagree with and I have a hard time figuring out it was just eager town who thought she found something, or scum intentionally ignoring parts of it.

I believe Kanna is scum for the shitty push, TBH. My thought process is they watched Eup do the same, and the discussion of meta in the game, and utilised a method they believe has credibility with other members of the game to push for a lynch. I personally think that merits more discussion.

[Drew-Sta]

Not sure. I'd give Aldus more credit for a sheep vote as town if he only would have acknowledged that it was just that: a sheep/lol vote to L-1. His insistance that it's an actual scumread makes me believe he is possibly scum.

Not sure. I'd give Aldus more credit for a sheep vote as town if he only would have acknowledged that it was just that: a sheep/lol vote to L-1. His insistance that it's an actual scumread makes me believe he is possibly scum.

+1

Aldus is a lot scummier, whereas kanna might be misguided town

Can you point me to the posts where you make your case on Ald? My eyes sting after a day of laptop use for work.

Please and thanks.

[Drew-Sta]

@Drew; You didn’t ask me any questions, and I don’t see why I’m obliged to comment on you calling me “fucking lazy”

I get that you disagree with meta, but why is it scum indicative to you? Meta is a measure of someone’s personality and playstyle and is therefore useful in sorting people

It’s not the first time I’ve used it and I’m going to keep using thanks

I never said I asked questions. I forged an argument against you and you’ve ignored it.

I didn’t say meta is scum indicative. I said how you used the meta against Ico was scum based.

Go back and actually read what I’ve said, rather than reinvent what I’ve said, please.

[Drew-Sta]

ald is doing the scummy thing where he sheeps kanna to 1v1 ico but tries to get ico to 1v1 kanna

i think

either ald/kanna is svs taking turns or ald/kanna is svt where he's burning two slots kinda

Thank you.

Well you quoted the core of the aldus case here

Thank you.

@Drew, there's also the part where Aldus builds on the meta argument from Kanna, and that similar to a previous scumgame of mine, my reads this game have been inconsistent in a similar fashion to that scumgame. Datisi has fought against this argument

@drew, I suggest you read the second half of Aldus ISO. It's not that much. See how and why he votes/pushes me.

The meta I'm not worried about. The adoption by Aldus of Kanna's argument is of concern. 345, 351, 366 are a weird falling in line with Kanna. If an Icon lynch went ahead, then Aldus could bus Kanna for leading the argument for the lynch and absolve himself of responsibility.

410 is misrep, as it wasn't Aldo scum reading, it was Aldo following Kanna's read after you pressed them. 414 is then a cop out: 'Oh no! I wasn't actually voting Ico, I was just being a muppet!' Which is covering himself and cutting himself off from calling Ico into suspicion. Then backs onto Ico being scum in 416 again, buddies Oka and suggests I'm PR fishing (which is casting shade) on my post - which completely misreps what I said.

Ok, I'm content that Aldo has more to answer for and is giving tells.

I think the thing I'm actually looking for is just *deathtunnels* and what i mean by agenda-y refers to the same thing (pushing a mislynch) but ok, will look through that tomorrow.

Spoiler:

*casually ignores drew*

Of course you'd avoid me. You've got no way at all to refute what I've said because it's accurate

@ico - AtE by Kanna in 534?

[Drew-Sta]

kinda off-topic, drew, where do you draw the line between "giving someone a townread" and "buddying"?

Just for transparencies sake, I personally don't town read. I've discovered that when I town read, I don't critique a players argument any more and confbias means I accept whatever they say as true without checking. I got hammered in a game once where the scum was virtually pointed out to me and I simply didn't see it because I had a person pocketed as town. Consequently, I now try to remain null on everyone and simply assess arguments and interactions to determine whether something makes sense or not, and also what the intent of something might be.

For example, at this moment, I have observed what Ico (and to a lesser extent Oka) are doing and believe their behaviours have prompted inconsistencies in other players. Their intent is to flush people out. I accept that has town basis. So I'm willing to go with it to see where it leads us. If Ico and Oka drive for lynches that end with townies being lynched, I'd reassess what is being done as Ico and Oka simply trying to obfuscate and create inconsistencies in players, and assume they are clever scum. But I can only do that if I remain null on them. If I townread them, I'll simply accept what they're doing as 'good' and get blinded by confbias.

In my observation, declaring someone as townread (either soft (no evidence, but gut) or hard (identifying posts that lead to that conclusion)) is relatively harmless. A declared position explains corresponding behaviour. The line is crossed into buddying when people work to push their town read in a public way, and appear to defend or disarm critique of the player, or sheep them without identifying why. That shows lack of analysis and an easy 'out' for mislynches - this is not town-positive behaviour.

Well, first it seemed like Kanna and I were about equally scummy to Icon (circa pages 13 and 14 or so). Then Icon said "if I get lynched here lynch kanna next" (page 15) which implies Kanna is scummier than me. This is also seen in the reads list later on that page where Kanna is "prob scum" but I'm just "could be scum." Icon then goes on to vote me and says 1 of me and Kanna is scum but probably not both. So why did Icon feel confident enough to say "if I get lynched here lynch kanna next"? That could potentially lead to two town lynches in a row from town-Icon's perspective. If Icon really thinks that one of Kanna and I are scum, then it should be trying to sort which one is the scum, which I don't think is happening. I also don't think it made sense to call Kanna scummier but then switch votes to me -- maybe scum Icon saw me as the easier target?

The fact you keep citing Ico as scum without forming a really good argument is curious. And no, the above is not a good argument. It's basically OMGUS reasoning. Which is a poor foundation to work with. If you think Icon is scum, form an argument on why utilising posts and the like.

How did you get OMGUS from what I said? What's wrong with my argument?

You're basically saying that because Icon is focussed on you and you don't agree with his argument, he must be scum.

Regarding your argument, you've simply regaled what has happened. It's clear Ico is trying to sort the both of you and determine his view on you. You've simply retorted with 'He's wrong, because I'm town, thus he must be scum'.

The meta I'm not worried about. The adoption by Aldus of Kanna's argument is of concern. 345, 351, 366 are a weird falling in line with Kanna. If an Icon lynch went ahead, then Aldus could bus Kanna for leading the argument for the lynch and absolve himself of responsibility.

410 is misrep, as it wasn't Aldo scum reading, it was Aldo following Kanna's read after you pressed them. 414 is then a cop out: 'Oh no! I wasn't actually voting Ico, I was just being a muppet!' Which is covering himself and cutting himself off from calling Ico into suspicion. Then backs onto Ico being scum in 416 again, buddies Oka and suggests I'm PR fishing (which is casting shade) on my post - which completely misreps what I said.

1 When you say "weird" do you mean scummy? If so, what's scummy about it?

2 And the problem with your next statement is that it assumes Icon and Kanna are town.

3 I don't know what you mean about post 410.
For context for post 414, I didn't have a strong read on Icon at the time I placed the vote, though it was still a scumread. I'm not "backing onto Ico being scum" -- I'm saying my scumread has grown stronger since I placed the vote.
4 Saying I townread Oka isn't buddying.
5 I didn't cast shade on your post -- in fact, I said I thought you were town because of it.

1 When I say weird, I mean it doesn't make sense. As in, it is inconsistent. And thus, does not appear to be town favourable.

2 I've never said Kanna is town at all. In fact my vote is on him. That's an odd thing to say, and somewhat slippy.

3 Can't remember what I meant by this. I'll pause on it and return when I remember.

4 Oka is doing the exact same thing as Ico yet you townread him. Secondly, you've given no reason to town read him. I consider that a form of buddying.

5 I disagree re the shade bit.

[Drew-Sta]

i do agree that my theory on ald!scum doesn't actually feel right

Why?

this game is too hard and feels stalled rn

That's a cop out

[Drew-Sta]

Ok, Ald has been at L-1 for a little bit now. Where are we on hammering?

[Drew-Sta]

So is he scum or not, Oka. Shit or get off the pot, son.

[Drew-Sta]

actually since nobody has commented on this yet

are you guys not irked by QQ's l1 post?

I honestly missed it. It is scum indicative to me.

Look, I'm willingly going to admit that I get why I'm being seen as not productive to town but I refuse to be read as scum for things that are at best NAI

I'm willing to work and learn how to play better and see what you guys are seeing that I am not with regards to Ico, Euph and Aldus.

But let's face it, the game state in and of itself is messy to read as it is don't you think?

P-Edit: That I still think you're scum

But maybe I do agree with you on this

VOTE: Quantum

P-Edit: That I still think you're scum
But maybe I do agree with you on this
VOTE: Quantum

this is totally not creepy

you still think i'm scum
but you agree with me that QQ is scum
so you vote alongside with me on QQ

UNVOTE:
VOTE: drpepper

I had thought Ico was simply tunnelling on Dr. The above makes me go 'Yup, I think there's something there.' The lack of logical thought by Dr in their voting pattern is what alarms me.

P-Edit: That I still think you're scum
But maybe I do agree with you on this
VOTE: Quantum

this is totally not creepy

you still think i'm scum
but you agree with me that QQ is scum
so you vote alongside with me on QQ

UNVOTE:
VOTE: drpepper

Ahh yes because I've completely devolved into associative tells on Day 1 and have not considered the possibility of people I think are scum can be not scum together (i.e. I could be wrong)

And also I'm allowed to vote for other people other than my top scum reads

But I feel like this is going here

VOTE: Iconeum

The flip flop then OMGUS is obvious.

- drew has Deepwolf Potental but i have absolutely nothing to base that on other than paranoia

What does this mean? I've never heard the phrase before.

but calls my push on him disingenious

that's actually hilarious

Yup.

QQ/Drew in that case

everyone else at least feels very involved at this time

I think you need to apply pressure to more people. I agree you need to do this to me and also QQ, but I feel like you need to widen your scope a bit and look at Kanna, Oka, Euph. Townread or not, you have to do this or I will begin to think you're tunnelling simply to look towny.

- i think QQ is town both because of their posts and because of The Gamestate(tm)

Could you elaborate on the gamestate read, and what you keep mentioning about how the "game feels wrong"?

Why Drew and not Quantum?

because i still think QQ's Town, i wanna swing into Drew for a bit, and also idk lol why not, this game doesn't make sense, maybe it starts making sense now

What are your reasons for Quentin-town? What do you think of the GhostPepper now?

^%£== Hectic

i'll answer these together kinda

you know when your hands are cold and you're struggling to move your fingers? this game feels like that. everything seems to be slow, clammy, and hard to move. the game is inert. and it feels wrong.

QQ feels town because most people seem sorta "ye QQ is bad could lynch there i guess." nobody is exactly defending him but also nobody except for oka and ico is voting there at first? (and i think those two are town so) QQ seems like that slot that nobody has strong opinions on but nobody has a problem jumping there? like it seems like The Compromise which I don't think hits scum?

Now i'm reminded of Pepper's jump onto QQ's wagon and just ugh

VOTE: pepper

also i think QQ's posts show somw towny thought processes, or i don't think scum plays the game the way he does it

Do it, don't just talk about it.

--

At the moment, I'm content to change vote to DrP. I think his interactions with Ico are not consistent enough for me to consider they are town, and thus, I believe a wagon will generate insight to determine if we hammer or not.

UNVOTE: Kanna
VOTE: DrPepper

[Drew-Sta]

Ehh, I'm ensign

Just promise me you'll take a look at Ico and Euph after you lynch me ayt?

@Dr, why did you flip from Q to Ico so fast?

[Drew-Sta]

Anyone want kanna over pepper?

Drew have we played before?

Not sure.

Also, I was on Kanna from the start. Why are you doing this now when I asked literally pages ago to consider it? This is not a consistent approach.

[Drew-Sta]

I’m happy to restock my vote on Kanna but I want it noted that I think Ico’s flip flop is concerning.

UNVOTE: DrP
VOTE: Kanna

I am on my weekend so likely won’t be on a whole lot. A few things to respond to so I apologise in advance to Dats and Ico for having to wait.

[Drew-Sta]

Idk why the wagon on me just died.

But if ever I do get lynched today, I feel like we should take a look at the most opportunistic vote in the lot

VOTE: DrewSta

This is a really bad push and something to look for on Day 2.

Worst OMGUS I’ve seen in a while.

[Drew-Sta]

Spoiler: Drew wall

Anyone want kanna over pepper?

Drew have we played before?

Not sure.

Also, I was on Kanna from the start. Why are you doing this now when I asked literally pages ago to consider it? This is not a consistent approach.

Because it's insistence that im scum despite lit everyone telling her they don't se thé resemblence is pinging me

Misread =/= scum. You should know that.

Anyone want kanna over pepper?

Drew have we played before?

Not sure.

Also, I was on Kanna from the start. Why are you doing this now when I asked literally pages ago to consider it? This is not a consistent approach.

Explain this

Because you re thé inconsistent one here

Huh? This makes no sense, especially when you've flipped votes more than underwear this day phase.

Yeah we can do kanna now

If we can do Kanna then why do you do this?

UNVOTE:

i think euph is town tho

You're losing credibility here.

I feel like what you're doing is effectively drilling people and casting shade, which you can revisit in later phases. This isn't scum hunting, it's obfuscation.

Idk why the wagon on me just died.

But if ever I do get lynched today, I feel like we should take a look at the most opportunistic vote in the lot

VOTE: DrewSta

This is a really bad push and something to look for on Day 2.

Your post is negligent. It ignores other peoples flip floppyness but focusses on one person (tunnelling or deliberate ignorance - uncertain), ignores the fact I have sat on Kanna most of this phase, then saw your inconsistency and considered it scum based and adjusted with other players to work toward a lynch. My flip from Kanna does not mean I consider them town, but a decision to work with people towards towns best interests.

Your obvious attempt to derail focus is clear. I genuinely consider you scum.

Nah man, you're just really opportunistic

And you're not? Hypocritical and a liar to boot. Lynch all liars.

761 is a really bad post and it doesn't bring anything new to the table. You basically just parroted the existing reads to justify jumping on the wagon

I agreed with existing reads and added my thoughts. You're misrepresenting me big time here.

I actually think Drew is town, idk where this is coming from

Never said it wasn't. I'm just saying my gut tells me that Drew is being active in a way that I find productive to town, instead of people being active but not contributing anything to the discussion

My initial reads have me at
Town:
Oka
Dats
Drew

Nullish Town
Aldus
Kanna

Nullish Scum
QQ

Scum
Icon
Euph

so uhhh..... what changed from these?

And there, Dr, is the hypocrisy pointed out.

reminder still waiting on Kanna's reads

I'm in a confusing state right now but I think <Datisi, OkaPoka, Aldus, DrP> are town, the rest i can't tell you atm

Oh yay you're town

Why does this make Kanna town? Because she thinks you're town?

And why'd you find Drew-Sta's vote more opportunistic than Oogle's on your wagon?

£÷÷ Hectic

Kanna is intentionally taking unpopular stances

Oka's voting pattern is consistent

Intentionally taking unpopular stances =/= town.

QQ woke up since kanna votes

Drew pushing me to'take a look at kanna and then freaking out when i do is ehm strange?

It's not strange at all. I'm trying to understand why you would look at Kanna and adjust the train off Dr when it was moving ahead productively and we had some consensus on them being scum. You effectively derailed your own train, and it reads as suspicious. As if you bussed your partner and then needed to get them off the hook.

I really don’t like this constant pushing to L1 then switching targets because it’s honestly just rolefishing

No, it is not. It gives insight. If someone claims, it's information we can use later on to determine if they're lying or not.

[Drew-Sta]

VOTE: drpepper

Drew we can fight tomorrow

Constructively discuss Fighting gets town nowhere.

pepper, you haven't responded to 798 and 818 (though the latter is somewhat a moot point now).

~

am I the only one who sees drew v icon as TvT screaming past each other?

~

i don't have things to comment on, so this isn't a wallpost, this is a fencepost

Town v Town screaming past each other? Not sure I follow.

[Drew-Sta]

pepper, you haven't responded to 798 and 818 (though the latter is somewhat a moot point now).

~

am I the only one who sees drew v icon as TvT screaming past each other?

~

i don't have things to comment on, so this isn't a wallpost, this is a fencepost

I feel like both are moot don't you think?

But yes, when I flip go after Drew, Euph and Ico.

I won't self vote but I think best town play is to lynch me today and use my wagon to find scum

Can you look at 761 for me again and tell me what in it you disagree. You're not squirming like I would assume mafia would, and I am in no rush to hammer and would like you to please respond to what I wrote.

I'm interested in lynching scum, not mislynching town.

[Drew-Sta]

Drew

Im being pushed for'being scum by kanna, main reason im in my deathtunnel meta
You think im scum for being al over thé place

What do you think of that?

I never said you're scum. I said you're being inconsistent.

Town v Town screaming past each other? Not sure I follow.

your whole argument feels kinda stupid/pointless to me, but not in a sense of "scum pushing an agenda trying to get someone mislynched", or even "buddies distancing", just... pointless. "you're inconsistent" "no, you're inconsistent" "you're flip-flopping" "i wanted to vote kanna" "no i wanted to vote kanna first why are you voting kanna" "why are you unvoting now" "no u" "no u" "omgus"

like i'll admit that maybe i'm not reading y'all's posts closely enough but this is pretty much all i've gotten from the argument.

I think you're not reading what I'm reading. I'm saying he's inconsistent. I'm not screaming. There's literally no emotion in what I'm saying.

Can you look at 761 for me again and tell me what in it you disagree. You're not squirming like I would assume mafia would, and I am in no rush to hammer and would like you to please respond to what I wrote.

I'm interested in lynching scum, not mislynching town.

I really dislike this post

That last line is something I would say as scum to fake town cred

Plus your 761 was so flimsy man. You're attacking me for my consistency (and even claimed OMGUS, which isn't even a scumtells in and of itself) even though I felt that my pushes were coming from a genuine place. Everything just felt so convenient that you were "content" with my wagon because my push was inconsistent

Occasionally a Scum player will use it to cover a strategic vote, feigning outrage to get someone else closer to a lynch.

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... d_You_Suck

You've basically flipped on anyone that has voted you.

"your lack of logic in your voting pattern" - because I offered a truce from Ico as I felt that our fight was going nowhere and my pivot to QQ, a player I thought was a good lynch from the beginning of the game.

That's a direct misrep. I said your voting logic is flawed, for reasons I've alluded to above. You effectively vote for anyone voting you. Which, to me, is always a curious tell as it feels like you're sweating under pressure of vote and have something at stake.

drew

Can you look at 761 for me again and tell me what in it you disagree. You're not squirming like I would assume mafia would, and I am in no rush to hammer and would like you to please respond to what I wrote.

I'm interested in lynching scum, not mislynching town.

I really dislike this post

That last line is something I would say as scum to fake town cred

Plus your 761 was so flimsy man. You're attacking me for my consistency (and even claimed OMGUS, which isn't even a scumtells in and of itself) even though I felt that my pushes were coming from a genuine place. Everything just felt so convenient that you were "content" with my wagon because my push was inconsistent

actually i agree with that last line thing

it's the definition of Look At Me I'm So Town

There's nothing I can say against that except I am town?

I genuinely am interested in lynching scum. Deliberate mislynches I think are lazy and only benefit scum.

Spoiler: Drew wall

Anyone want kanna over pepper?

Drew have we played before?

Not sure.

Also, I was on Kanna from the start. Why are you doing this now when I asked literally pages ago to consider it? This is not a consistent approach.

Because it's insistence that im scum despite lit everyone telling her they don't se thé resemblence is pinging me

Misread =/= scum. You should know that.

Anyone want kanna over pepper?

Drew have we played before?

Not sure.

Also, I was on Kanna from the start. Why are you doing this now when I asked literally pages ago to consider it? This is not a consistent approach.

Explain this

Because you re thé inconsistent one here

Huh? This makes no sense, especially when you've flipped votes more than underwear this day phase.

Yeah we can do kanna now

If we can do Kanna then why do you do this?

UNVOTE:

i think euph is town tho

You're losing credibility here.

I feel like what you're doing is effectively drilling people and casting shade, which you can revisit in later phases. This isn't scum hunting, it's obfuscation.

Idk why the wagon on me just died.

But if ever I do get lynched today, I feel like we should take a look at the most opportunistic vote in the lot

VOTE: DrewSta

This is a really bad push and something to look for on Day 2.

Your post is negligent. It ignores other peoples flip floppyness but focusses on one person (tunnelling or deliberate ignorance - uncertain), ignores the fact I have sat on Kanna most of this phase, then saw your inconsistency and considered it scum based and adjusted with other players to work toward a lynch. My flip from Kanna does not mean I consider them town, but a decision to work with people towards towns best interests.

Your obvious attempt to derail focus is clear. I genuinely consider you scum.

Nah man, you're just really opportunistic

And you're not? Hypocritical and a liar to boot. Lynch all liars.

761 is a really bad post and it doesn't bring anything new to the table. You basically just parroted the existing reads to justify jumping on the wagon

I agreed with existing reads and added my thoughts. You're misrepresenting me big time here.

I actually think Drew is town, idk where this is coming from

Never said it wasn't. I'm just saying my gut tells me that Drew is being active in a way that I find productive to town, instead of people being active but not contributing anything to the discussion

My initial reads have me at
Town:
Oka
Dats
Drew

Nullish Town
Aldus
Kanna

Nullish Scum
QQ

Scum
Icon
Euph

so uhhh..... what changed from these?

And there, Dr, is the hypocrisy pointed out.

reminder still waiting on Kanna's reads

I'm in a confusing state right now but I think <Datisi, OkaPoka, Aldus, DrP> are town, the rest i can't tell you atm

Oh yay you're town

Why does this make Kanna town? Because she thinks you're town?

And why'd you find Drew-Sta's vote more opportunistic than Oogle's on your wagon?

£÷÷ Hectic

Kanna is intentionally taking unpopular stances

Oka's voting pattern is consistent

Intentionally taking unpopular stances =/= town.

QQ woke up since kanna votes

Drew pushing me to'take a look at kanna and then freaking out when i do is ehm strange?

It's not strange at all. I'm trying to understand why you would look at Kanna and adjust the train off Dr when it was moving ahead productively and we had some consensus on them being scum. You effectively derailed your own train, and it reads as suspicious. As if you bussed your partner and then needed to get them off the hook.

I really don’t like this constant pushing to L1 then switching targets because it’s honestly just rolefishing

No, it is not. It gives insight. If someone claims, it's information we can use later on to determine if they're lying or not.

PRs/Positions are non-indicative of alignment, scum can roll anything from Jailkeeper Captain to a no PR Ensign. Why do you think scum have any reason to lie about claims or counterclaim?

How confident are you on Ico + Doctar?

>>$ Hectic

Can I make this really clear - I've not scum read Ico at all. Why do people keep saying that?

I am reasonably confident both Kanna and Dr's inconsistency match scum behaviour. So yes. Confident as I can be on D1.

DocMirinda's acceptance of being lynched today does feel kinda towny, but I'm not sure how much that should sway my read on the rest of his play.

I could be convinced on Drew; I don't like his overconfidence on the Doc or his Ico bussing proposal.

¬]}~ Hectic

I never bussed Ico at all. That's a massive misrep.

revisiting my early game exchange with drew-sta, it is possible that his asking me why i did not post about patterns i did not notice was simply a misunderstanding in the same way that it is possible that alduskkel simply misinterpreted my reasoning for my early game push on drew-sta. however, here:

Ok, I missed that post. My apologies.

drew-sta said he missed a post that he had previously replied to, after i pointed out that he provided the exact reasoning for my early game approach that i had previously given. as though he wanted to look like he was solving and naturally reached the correct conclusion.

This is again shade based and exactly what you did with the meta reading earlier in the day.

I make a mistake by not seeing something, and you're literally claiming it as a scum tell. That's weak logic and is totally against how you have previously tried to create a case on people in this game.

[Drew-Sta]

BTW, I started making my post about two hours ago as the kids have been up. I will respond to more when I get time but I'm taking the kids to the park.

I've no problem being lynched as that is life, but the reasons for it are poor and I would like the chance to at least finish responding to things and give my read list or things to watch out for before you hammer (if it gets to that point).

[Drew-Sta]

VC 1.15

Drew-Sta

(4): DoctorPepper, QuantumQuasar, Iconeum, Euphony

QuantumQuasar

(2): OkaPoka, Alduskkel

Iconeum

(1): Kanna

Kanna

(1): Drew-Sta

DoctorPepper

(1): Datisi

Not Voting

(0):

None.

(expired on 2020-05-04 13:39:45)

V/LAs

: Iconeum has a standard weekend VLA

Before I go, probability means one scum is in the vote for me, and one scum vote is off.

[Drew-Sta]

that feels like such convenient timing but i don't know what to make of it

pedit: pepper, not the mod.

Can you also explain that so I make sure I understand what you mean.

[Drew-Sta]

There is a dissonance here:

Spoiler:

i didn't get as much as i wanted but
i'd say icon came out scummier looking
i'm town-leaning on oka for 364
drew gets town points for going the more difficult path of voting kanna
also not related to my vote but 293 doesn't look like it comes from scum:

Oka, in my opinion, is trying to ride that line between looking scummy and looking town as a means of making themselves appear a poor NK target.

IMHO.

like,

this kinda looks like PR hunting at first but if it were

actual

PR hunting then drew would have just posted this in the scum PT instead of in the thread

your vote on me is reasonable from an outside perspective, but I don't see anything alignment-indicative about it yet

Setup:

Structure:

The Mafia team is composed of 2 players who are randomly assigned to any rank and role in the game (They can be officers. If either of them are officers the secondary win condition does not apply). They have two win conditions A) outnumber the town/endgame them or B) kill the entire officer command structure (Captain, Commander, and Lieutenant). There are 6 random possible power roles in this game. However, only 3 (randomly decided) are actually in the game. The rest are Vanilla. Also, you know there cannot be multiple instances of one role.

Just say that you don't care about your officer command structure now?

Are you just neutrals hanging around with whatever floats your boat because you received a message saying you're an ensign?

That's absolutely not permissible as the definition of Ensign is:

Ensign is a junior rank of a commissioned officer in the armed forces of some countries, normally in the infantry or navy.

Therefore "it does not suck to be you" as stated in this post:

Setup:

Ensign

You're just an ordinary ensign. You cannot assume command. Sucks to be you lol.

The game thread is here.

Confirm by replying with your role name and alignment.

And you will respect the uniform!

You will not dishonor this unit mark my words I will tender my resignation instead of decimating you all myself for a lack of integrity in this UNIT

Mafia know if PRs/officers are town

. I am doing my best to predict stuff and protect them

it just makes my job harder if there's more variables basically please have some respect for your captain she is trying here

I'm not sure what it means but there's something there.

[Drew-Sta]

Ehh, I'm ensign

Just promise me you'll take a look at Ico and Euph after you lynch me ayt?

@Dr, why did you flip from Q to Ico so fast?

Because QQ is a viable lynch for me too and you can see that in my voting patterns

I've recognized that my 1v1 with Ico is more harmful to town because of the circular nature of the discussion

VOTE: Drew-Sta

WTF? This actually makes no sense. DrP is the one saying you're a viable lynch. All I've seen from you is what appears to be a post condition and that's it.

Our lives are not disposable.

FTR: This is exactly the same thing in different words as my suggesting that I'm not here to mislynch townies. It is inconsistent to let this go past without condemning it if you condemn what I said.

I'm only exposing this as it is interesting that DrP highlights that post by me as significant in his vote. But then doesn't highlight this.

[Drew-Sta]

I get what you're saying about no more claims, but roles aren't indicative of alignment and we should be trying to hit most likely scum though.

VOTE: Drew-Sta L-1
shiki and I think this right now

}34# Hectic

Explain why.

qq literally is never going to matter or have his claim be taken seriously esp since he is not claiming captain

That might be his point. Won't get NK'd by mafia, surfs through to the end, then comes good. Might be a tactic. Not saying it is, but I've seen crazier shit. I faked a post condition in a themed game on another site to pretend to be a character they would associate as town. Had I not fucked up a night action choice, I would have won.

I feel like his roleplay could have townie motivation though. I wouldn't go QQ

Explain why.

A hypothetical question for Ico; would you, as a town ensign be willing to be the lynch?

just *would* you?

This is just madness. It's like the ultimate way to gain mislynch excuse - 'We eliminated a towny to narrow down the pool, it was a bad choice I get it but Ico wanted to do it!!'

as in DP said he would be fine with being the lynch because he believes his flip will help

I’m just wondering if Ico has a different stance

p-edit: *shrug* I just wanted to see what kind of answer he would give

Someone suggesting their own lynch benefits town is one thing. I personally believe if I do get lynched it will reveal things. I accept that. Doesn't mean I want it.

Asking someone to agree to that type of lynch is totally ridiculous.

...

Who uses OMGUS as a scumtell in 2020???

3 minutes after I post a wall and that's what you retort with?

imagine how confusing this game would be if Doctor Drew were playing

[Drew-Sta]

Dr P vote trends:

138 Sheeps Oka post on QQ. Gives no reason for the vote. Could be considered RVS. This seems fine.

252 Sheeps Oka again, this time on Ico. Not RVS. Reads Ico as scummy in 255.

471 Reads me, Oka and Dats as town. At this point I've been focussing in on Kanna, who they consider null-town.

652 Has pressure on them by people (but only 1 vote). V1.10 has DrP and Kanna both on Ico. Flips now to QQ, agreeing with Ico (who they had been butting heads with) and sheeping their vote, despite still reading them as scum. This is bizarre and appears to be a peace pipe extended to Ico to get heat off them.

664 Flips BACK to Ico, after Ico picks up how bizarre their sheeping of the vote on QQ is.

704 Flips BACK AGAIN to QQ, after Ico believes they're death tunnelling DrP.

787 Flips onto me, then claims it's opportunistic when I've made a case against them. This is OMGUS, but most importantly, in 1.13, Kanna is sitting at L-1. Dr then drills in at me, citing 761 as hugely scummy. The consequence of this is the attention focussed on me see's DrP attract votes again to L-2, but significantly, Kanna is dropped to only having 1 vote. In my mind, it was a diversion and done, I believe, specifically to get votes off Kanna.

A few things.

There's no case on QQ, but they keep slipping back. QQ's wagon is an odd one and you can easily claim if they were mislynched that their play style made them an obvious choice as they weren't contributing. This argument actually has legitimacy - we don't know WTF QQ is doing and thus, any lynch on them is done with a lot of hope and would result in a lot of confusion and abdicating responsibility since the slot is unusual. This is a perfect hiding spot for scum.

Secondly, the flip back into Ico is easy. He also makes an interesting statement in 295:

Wouldn't scum have more reason to be consistent because they know the game state?

This is actually also true. But it also means they know QQ is a safe bet given the oddity on the slot. They also know if they death tunnel one player, they can simply claim they were tunnelled and use that as an excuse to sit behind if their slot is every questioned.

I also think Ico is townread by enough people that it's

an easy slot to focus on

without consequence since other players appear unlikely to lynch Ico at this point.

The flip to me is, IMHO, because I've seen both Dr and Kanna as scum based play and they are working to buffer each other. Dr townreads Kanna in 155 (as well as Oka). The persistence on Ico

could be

(and in my opinion is, although I'm happy to hear contrasting statements) a response to Ico's scumread of Kanna in 368, as around then was when Dr and Ico were starting to smash in to each other. It wasn't the start, but from that point on it was bristling engagement with each other for many pages. Dr continues to read Kanna nullish town in 471 (and Kanna returns with town read on Dr in 601, which Dr responds to in 616). The read on Kanna is 'they're taking unpopular stances' (817) and that is it.

This is why I think Dr is not town. It adds also to my suspicion that Kanna is also not town.

I am happy to flip flop on Kanna or Dr today to gain a lynch. These will be the only slots I vote for today though. This does not mean I read the rest of you town. Just that I believe Kanna and Dr's actions make me believe they are scum.

[Drew-Sta]

Drew, I feel like it's so weird that you're still making a case on me because I've already outright said I'm okay with being lynched, as my flip will give this town some clarity on who scum is based on how they pushed my wagon.

You don't need to make a case, you could have just justified this as a vote to ensure a sure flip and to avoid outing more PRs

All this fluff makes it seem like you want an out for tomorrow to say "I genuinely thought he was scum".

This just makes it look worse. You're even claiming OMGUS is a scumtell when that meta has been dead since I joined MS. (I am choosing this as my takeaway because it's the perfect example of how flimsy this case is)

Also I know I disliked QQ, but I also dislike QQ being a counterwagon on Drew

Also Drew and Ico surely aren't scum together so a red flip from one should clear the other

If you flip town then I am happy to identify I made a mistake. But there are questions being asked of me, and I fully understand that. I have to explain why I am voting the way I am voting and it's in towns best interest that I do that so they can refer to it should I be lynched or NK'd.

It's also difficult to stop scum reading you given you keep calling my posts fluff. What about my post is fluff? Why don't you try to engage with it? This is the bit I don't get. You haven't constructed an argument at all.

[Drew-Sta]

I don't wanna do this because I'm lazy.

I'm not gonna try to bother and defend myself with how Drew has been misrepping my play. He claims I'm flipping my votes, implying that there is no rhyme or reason when:
1. I've wanted QQ lynched because this is a pattern of play I'm used to seeing from him elsewhere.
2. I've had a legitimate fight with Ico
3. I've found a reason to see scum Drew

And it's so weird claiming "I don't wanna mislynch town" after my claim and still going with a case on me

For the record, I don't mind the case but town drew wouldn't need to make one, ya feel me?

Your reason to claim I'm not town is literally 761, and I STILL can't work out what in there you find problematic.

I have a case on your because I believe you're not town and thus not a mislynch - you're completely misrepresenting my claims.

You don't mind the case? Then why don't you engage with it and show me where I'm wrong? And the fact you keep pushing that town wouldn't keep on a case - exactly how do you get someone lynched unless you show and prove the case against them?! Magic 8 Ball?

[Drew-Sta]

just saying the logical approach is to out less PRs and therefore we should lynch DP since people don't want to lynch Ico

but I feel like Drew has more chance of being scum

And

why

do I have more chance of being scum.

It is fucking unreal that you two jump to each others defence here.

[Drew-Sta]

Bruh, I'm saying you never needed a case against me because I was okay with getting Lynched when I was L-1.

My engagement is the fact that it exists isn't necessary for town, it just seems like one to cover your bases tomorrow when I flip green

I'm unsure what this means?

Also you're claiming Kanna is coming to my defense when she literally said she thinks lynching me is optimal. If we are scum would that make sense??

They also claim you're town, and bussing is a thing.

[Drew-Sta]

Let's also be really clear, Doctor. I'm at L-1 and you're the one leading the lynch train on me. So your claim I don't need to make a case is ridiculous (I do, or I face being lynched). Your 'poor me, I'm dead man walking' is obvious AtE. And again you have not made any counter argument to what I've said.

Do people want me claiming at this stage or do you want more time to discuss?

[Drew-Sta]

Ico, what are you doing...

[Drew-Sta]

Ico, what are you doing...

[Drew-Sta]

approximately the gamestate right now

[Drew-Sta]

I don’t want to die as I’m town but I’ll accept it if you want.

Eup’s derail is legit strange. No case has been built against me by them. Kanna’s flip flop is also incredibly suspect. Same reason.

I legit don’t have a read on QQ. I can’t in good conscience hammer him.

[Drew-Sta]

here's why you should hammer qq

its you or him and i think qq has >>rand scum

and its not like people are going to go for a cfd on a claimed captain

But I’ve said I will only vote Kanna or Dr today. If I hammer, it will again weaken my position as town.

I agree his slot is problematic.

I don’t want to be speed lynched tmr.

[Drew-Sta]

Actually, you know what, fuck it. This is just a game. If you lynch me it will only give insight.

Intent to hammer QQ

.

[Drew-Sta]

That's a good hour. I'm ready. Let's do this. LEEEEEEEROOOOOOOOOOOOOOY JENKINS!

UNVOTE:
VOTE: QQ

[Drew-Sta]

Kanna has been killed last night, she was a

Spoiler:

Captain

@euph, do things ~make sense~?

@drew, mind elaborating why you hammered that soon?

We were hours out from day finishing, and 1100 / 1101 made me think we have less to lose lynching QQ than anyone else.

I accept the wagon on me today, BTW. Saying I won't flip from Dr / Kanna, then flipping to QQ is retarded.

my reads this game lol

Mine too, bro. Mine too.

i wonder if its exactly doctor/euphony

Maybe. Euph flip flopping to me seemed off. Almost like they knew QQ would flip town and it would be something she could back off and let happen and want no trace of. Then again, Kanna did the same. /shrugs

ya know, after seeing that hammer, i had a funny thought that oka and drew are scum together and okay talked him in the pt into hammering qq unclaimed

Oka didn't convince me. The idea it could be more made me go 'Fuck it, let's flip and see'. Selfish, I know.

[Drew-Sta]

Edit - The idea it could be

me

made...

[Drew-Sta]

ya know, after seeing that hammer, i had a funny thought that oka and drew are scum together and okay talked him in the pt into hammering qq unclaimed

Oka didn't convince me. The idea it could be more made me go 'Fuck it, let's flip and see'. Selfish, I know.

The wording in your response to the accusation seems so off.

I'm not gonna pretend I didn't want QQ lynched because I did, but it seems like that wagon was used to counter yours after mine lost momentum.

Who started the QQ wagon?

Oka has townread me. If it's Oka / me, then you'd need to lynch me.

Also, why is the wording off?

[Drew-Sta]

Ok then back to posting flyers:

If I die tonight, and there is *no news* and *things don’t make sense*, Euphony is scum

o7

If I die tonight, and there is *no news* and *things don’t make sense*, Euphony is scum

o7

If I die tonight, and there is *no news* and *things don’t make sense*, Euphony is scum

o7

And by this I mean if ^ happens, powerlynch Euphony because Euphony is scum.

because otherwise, with *no news*, things aren't making sense and we are lynching Euphony as per flipped town captain who controlled our PR's

So you're in for Euph?

[Drew-Sta]

Okay I'm very sus of EVERYONE who did a complete 180 of their read on me

But not Ico?

I still scum read Pepper. Aldus has merit.

Euph I want clarity on why them.

You can lynch me if you want but I’m VT and it will get you nowhere. In saying that, I fully understand my flip flop will prompt the lynch and I can’t defend it well (it was impulse) thus, I won’t resist.

[Drew-Sta]

idk whats up with drew tbh

it seems like he just wants to be lynched/wagoned which is annoying but like idk

No, I don’t want to be lynched. I’m just resigned to the fact it is logical and likely.

Tbh, I’ve shifted slightly on Ico and consider Ald a real possibility.

Euph makes no sense

[Drew-Sta]

ok but can we talk about the fact that drew just claimed for literally no reason when it's possible town has a flagbearer and it's in town's best benefit to have as little claims as possible

The writing is on the wall. I scumread Kanna and hammered QQ. I know where this goes.

[Drew-Sta]

normally id say maybe drew sta is 2000 iq'ing this by playing so anti survivalist that he is scum through reverse psychology but i appear to be the only one townreading him so /shrug

I might have balls the size of church bells, but from a game play mentality, that's too far out there even for me to pull off.

Drew, people were active near deadline, so we had enough time to switch wagons if necessary. Why'd you go from being very cautious/reserved with your vote for most of the day phase to hammering without hearing a claim?

Could you address this, Drew? If you're town, I want you to explain what was going through your mind and why you just went for it. Was it just lol impulse, did you think Quentin wasn't a PR/Officer for whatever reason, did you change your mind and think he could be scum... etc. Try and explain your thought process please.

₩>>> Hectic

I'll try to explain.

1. I could see the wagon shifting back to me. Kanna moving back on to me and I think even you, I just went 'Fuck this.' I know I'm town, I'd rather take my chances at that point to get through and be of use at end game than let myself get lynched.
2. My style generally gets me lynched D1 or NK'd early. The reason is because I actually am cautious and I think that makes scum quite nervous. I won't say I'm the best scum hunter, but I do tend to be dogmatic if I know I'm right. I have found that usually gets me killed quickly.
3. There was 19 hours left. I had a full day of meetings on the Monday (AU time) and no chance to check in often. I didn't want to risk the lynch moving onto me without a chance to stop it.
4. This is the childishness of my choice - I don't think I've hammered anyone before (from memory). I wanted to do it. Cause, why the fuck not?

It seemed clear to me there weren't obv scum. I genuinely think Dr is. I misread Kanna but genuinely believed they were scum. I

think

Aldus can be. I didn't understand QQ. I shrugged and went 'Why the fuck not.'

Sometimes even cautious people get a rush of blood to the head.

drew's acceptance of it's lynch is odd

I'm honestly dead in the scheme of the game and even if I survive to Lylo, my word would not be able to help town given how I flip flopped and then hammered. I look way too suspicious. Given I betrayed my own play style, I've lost a bit of passion in how I'm playing this particular game so am not overly fussed if I get lynched or not.

The best thing that can happen is for town to drag out the day and pressure other players to see if they slip as scum. If they do, lynch them, let me be NK'd and you'll likely win at 4v1.

if everyone feels like aldus fits in most scumteams, why isn't he taking any heat?

I'm happy to. I will Iso them tmr and articulate my argument better. VOTE: Aldus

drew why the early claim

Why not?

[Drew-Sta]

Still busy with work. Will iso Aldus when I can.

@ Aldus - maybe I won't, but I am assuming I will.

[Drew-Sta]

why are you assuming you'll get nightkilled

It will persist with the confusion of the game. I am an easy lynch or NK. Let's say we get a lynch on me and a NK on a townie, that leaves a number of people scum can hide behind. IMHO.

[Drew-Sta]

Which makes me think about why you ain't jumping on the Drew train. There's a few scumreads there. Why don't you scumread Drew?

Because that would be obvious.

[Drew-Sta]

For me, Euph's initial interest in getting out of RVS by bringing in the meta stick and casting shade on me got my attn. It seemed like they dug out dirt to create a case. The fact they didn't apply this same logic to everyone else, despite their proclamation that meta was important, seemed unusual.

I would need to go back and iso both of them to determine if I think it's them together but still at work.

It's possible Aldus is just fucking up his game and behaving scummy as Oka says. Who knows.

[Drew-Sta]

What gets me about Aldus is I've seen no tunnelling at all. The flip flopping appears to be him keeping his options open and going with the wind. This attitude is usually indicative of scum for me.

[Drew-Sta]

Oka with the hammer. Dude, love it.

[Drew-Sta]

Gg all!