lange nonal 227 OHHH!!!! OHHH!!!!! ITS OVER OHHHHHH!!!! OHHH

[Madonna]

Heya, it has been ages since I have played, have not looked at the the votes yet so give me a moment before making a crap RVS vote that is not an accidental hammer. Good work getting to page 8.

[Madonna]

No vote count update since the initial? I will not be RVS voting, it seems, since by the time I catch up reading, I am going to have opinions.

Samsies, po7x.

[Madonna]

Only hit page 6 as of now, lamest thing I have seen thus far is the question @mod about post restriction roles being a thing. If they exist in a normal game, are they alignment indicative? Doubtful, unless you want to go way off base and assume out of several post restriction roles, some are town, some are scum, and that is now your voting pool. Like, that is wild.

[Madonna]

It turns out, eight pages of voting has not already put anyone in dire straits. We can fix that.

VOTE: word321

[Madonna]

word321: https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Normal_Game

Under Setup, the red bit about non-normal mechanics.

[Madonna]

Less ManateeDude, more word321. I felt we were getting somewhere.

[Madonna]

Four votes for me, all in one go? Oof. I am sure the cases against me are much better than the one's for word321.

I thought madonna's vote was pretty bad. Wanna lynch her?

ok lol, i just checked the ISO and im actually fine with this

vote:madonna

VOTE: Madonna

VOTE: madonna

VOTE: Madonna
oh yeah

[Madonna]

I feel like you guys are going to spend a lot of time fighting about a few posts by me that indicate nothing. The quick answer to everything is: we should focus on somebody, yes, and yes, that can be if you would like, and yes, I think that being the third? wagon suggests that none of you seem to want to anchor your votes much for long.

Why not word321? Why not ManateeDude? I like keeping votes still because you get to draw information from the people not on board with the primary wagon. Is word321/ManateeDude/Madonna so-and-so's scummate? You could find out if you stopped a moment and let that pressure build, even let it get to L-1. Then people drop off, find different scumspects, and things evaporate, and that has even happened here without L-1 wagons, but with less results.

[Madonna]

do you have any reads

Leaning town on ManateeDude and NorwegianBoyEE, enjoying their style, leaning scum on word321 and Albert B. Rampage, one with the sudden OMGUS turnabout and the other one was in both jumps on word321 and me. I was seriously digging your play prior to my entrance, popopopopopopo, but I guess what worked for you against word321 worked against me, and that is acceptably null.

[Madonna]

as ABR's chosen spokesperson (it was discussed in the scum PT that I would speak for ABR), this game is not worth jumping into yet because theres nothing to jump on. there hasnt been a halfway decent wagon yet. ABR might disagree about the word wagon, but the rest of us can see that its shit.

Hey in that scum thread, did you decide this with a scum ABR or just did it on behalf of a town ABR? There are a lot of jokes to shrug off in this game, so I am not sure which is what you are saying.

[Madonna]

town game
town game
town game
town game
scum game
scum game

The only reason I looked into the games was his questions were a lot of questions that lined up to look like busy work (which is a scum tell in my book) and I wanted to see if that was a thing for him. As you look through his town games you see a player that is sorting through things and making comments in the game. Here just more questions and lot of not saying much about anything going on in the game to sort through. Also not an agro player to going agro looks pretty much fake in my book too.

It checks out... Alright i'll join your push here.
VOTE: bob3141

Also... that image. Are you flirting with me?

So I know I am quoting NorwegianBoyEE here and not farside22, but this is more general everyone than aimed at the former two. There are a lot of meta pushes in this game. I have not posted or played here much, so I do not know the meta about meta but there are two/three issues to be aware of here:

1) bob3141 argues that the case built against him is from cherry-picked games, and I reasonably believe that if you have played enough games here, this can be done to anyone.
2) Players in this game seem very aware of their self meta, meaning they can either lean into it or twist it, which means we can argue over essentially corrupted data.
3) Those games are not this game, going outside of here to get usable arguments in here...is bad? Not carrying biases against a player from one game to the next is already hard enough.

I am not reading that bob3141 case, but I will ISO him and weigh in on that, otherwise he is currently null.

[Madonna]

as ABR's chosen spokesperson (it was discussed in the scum PT that I would speak for ABR), this game is not worth jumping into yet because theres nothing to jump on. there hasnt been a halfway decent wagon yet. ABR might disagree about the word wagon, but the rest of us can see that its shit.

Hey in that scum thread, did you decide this with a scum ABR or just did it on behalf of a town ABR? There are a lot of jokes to shrug off in this game, so I am not sure which is what you are saying.

yes

Like I know you are saying you have access to the scum PT, oh no you are scum lol what a joker, and you are speaking on the behalf of ABR, still funny ha ha, and then, lol I asked with or without his permission, because you did not outright say if ABR was actually involved with that discussion, because I just wanted your read--

you know, nevermind. It is just patter.

[Madonna]

You can have my bob3141 ISO notes in a spoiler!

[29, rvs gobble] nothing
[135, is hoctac an alt?] who cares
[138, typo gimmick] who caaares
[152, suggests that someone? vote word after quoting word in theory bc typos] a joke push or maybe a bad push, what was the vote count at this point?
[153-155, joke typos] ehhhh
[241, votato is that a serious manatee vote?] sounds like a legit question, a hunt
[242, suspecting? votato about suspecting? alora] could be a hunt, as aside i recall alora unvoting and then revoting word as a probable joke (so many jokers here)
[243, asking alora about the above aside] well, bob is not tunneling votato, that is good
[271, asks farside about pursuing goobble claim] who is pr hunting, farside or bob
[272, bob votes farside] bob says farside
[294, sets the hounds on farside] was not on his side at first, but yeah, i agree that maybe too much focus was given a probable fakeclaim (soooo many jokers), the read ask was a good call
[370, asks gob on his vok? townread (who tf), asks about gob's changed vote] will have to find/read gob's case/cases? cannot recall a good one
[394, response to farside's meta case] ehhhhhh, dislike both sides of the case bc the defense does not appear to be much butttt the initial case is still out of game and thus bad from the get-go
[395-397, oh this is the defense] i mean, if you stand by meta, i think bob beats farside
[398-399, about farside asking about gob's mason claim] i think if you pursue the idea about gob confirming his (fake)claim, yeah, i agree w bob, what does town get, what is the town motivation here?
[400, same as above] should have lumped it w 398 and 399
[401-405, typos] things
[406, response to nbee, typo defense] bad meta joke? if serious defense, bad

Not seeing a case for bob3141 based on his own merits. The big thing in his posts is his case for farside22, which actually has me coming out of his ISO scumleaning on farside22, but that is from a read on a player from another player's POV. I did not get that farside22 read from reading the game as a whole, and in fact thought farside22 had some good points, so I will have to chew on this more.

[Madonna]

It is a midwaybear push now, did the bob3141 train not get enough steam?

[Madonna]

1) Those games were just the ones i started with the first list toward the bottom here I listed 4 town games and a few scum games. I will ask you what I asked him. How is picking all those games cherry picking?
2) players can lie about self meta and if others see a difference are they lying too?
3) meta is a thing that you can use here. You can't use on going games.

This is pages back, so if this is not relevant anymore, my bad.

It was from among the games you chose that bob3141 responded that a player could pull a different spin from the same content and gave examples. I want you to admit that different people can make different interpretations from the same content. Some interpretations might better represent a player's meta than others, and that is what I wanted to highlight. While I am sure, farside22, that you have your stance on bob3141, I would ask that other people who responded to the wagon also look at bob3141's own take and ask themselves which interpretation feels better. I have the luxury of being able to see the counterargument prior to debating whether to vote, but others lacked that chance.

Yeah, people can use meta; I do not know why they would want that.

Pedit: ???

[Madonna]

lol your push is stupid.

You say i have posted one. You miss the fact ive pointed out the very ones you have posted dont even support your case.

I pointed out how one scum game i played how you said I play as town and a town game where i played exactly like this.

This is great, bob3141, I am on your side!

And i can point out near every one is beign read wrong.

And you serously need to learn how to read meta as you if you are town have incredibly simplistic and shallow. There is no shame not being able to read meta but atleast dont claim that you can.

...bob3141, baby, what the hell?

oh that was joke. That i make loads of typos (typos not spelling mistakes big difference) in my town games as i bang out the posts.

While my scum games because i heavily manipulate players particularly those who scum read me. I often read the posts several times to see what gets the desired effect.

And in one town game i got called out for catching typos so i started putting them back in lol. And adding them to my scum game posts


its not something that you can read into until after the game. So looking into that will not help you come to the glaringly obvioua conclusiln thati ime townn

Why is everything so bad? Why does it sound so manufactured? I will take your reads now, bob3141, to back up that supremely confident assertion that we all have bad reads. Please, fix them.

[Madonna]

I am still reading, but let us get this out of the way:

VOTE: bob3141

I do not care about the meta. This is about the falseness, the whole everyone is wrong on their reads, that his bad posts are somehow prodges, and that once he landed in hot water, suddenly he is sorting farside22 as town, no problems here, no sir.

I will check out the midwaybear situation and defend my former vote on word321 in time.

[Madonna]

It is a kind of irony that popopopopopopo is pushing the midwaybear wagon for essentially hopping on lots of wagons, much like himself. However, not even being able to explain votes is scummy because most things have explanations, that is the entire game of Mafia. Is there really no reason or are the reasons just scummy?

I want to vote bob3141 or word321 (not sure how he has developed since, had a pretty good recent post), might be willing to vote midwaybear.

[Madonna]

If bob3141 is scum, farside22 is town, popopopopopopo is still a questionable (null) version of me, and I might have to move Albert B. Rampage to a more null state. NorwegianBoyEE is town, not just a lean.

[Madonna]

There is only town and mafia.

I strongly townread everyone off the hang wagon besides popo, aka just Albert and votato.
Though I am townlean on popo.

VOTE: Nahdia

In a large Normal, there can be a second mafia/werewolf group or a serial killer.

THATS L-2, PLEASE CHILL WITH THE VOTES UNTIL EVERYONE CAN CHECK IN

But if we quickhammer, we all get towncred. /s

Nahdia's post yesterday were out there, for sure, and while that may be the best lynch to go with, we got to have discussion that will help us through Day 3 too. Silent, naked votes are not the way to go after RVS. The right vote is not always the right move. We take it slow.

[Madonna]

Damn straight, she robbed us from what would have been the funniest claim ever.
"So yeah guys, i'm an 'ascetic even-night alien'"
Hilarity ensues.

I mean, with that kind of specificity, you would expect at least one other player to have a similarly overwrought role and given that player pause.

didn't realize it was l-1. i wouldn't hammer without a claim. sorry bob :\

voyeur. hoctac was killed by a killing action (lol)

any modifiers on the role? why voyeur hoctac? other than the dad bod...

Yeah, the role claimed is pretty bland.

[Madonna]

picture this situation
someone claims tracker - i tracked nahdia to hoctac

nahdia "oh yea im a voyeur hoctac was killed lol"

would be lynched

Nahdia would be lynched here, yes, because the tracker gets sorted by the nightkill or the day after's lynch. Else the claim, if valid, is wasted. In this case however, there is no sacrifice,and there are not two slots being sorted. Another difference is that Nahdia's role is not claimed to counter the tracker, it shows up for us to challenge. The big question here that I do not think I have seen yet (it may show up, forgive me), is why she chose Hoctac over her scumreads (must look those up, maybe Hoctac is there) or midwaybear (who was also under the town microscope)?

[Madonna]

I did not really think through how to best use a voyeur's action; good to know. It does seem extra underwhelming when compared against ascetic even-night alien.

[Madonna]

My over-late word321 case:

Simple! I voted word321 because it was a vote that I could place to help put pressure on another player.

Also, if there are 200 posts, with lots of votes and no votecount, I should probably read some before I vote. Because if it turns out my vote was just plain bad or a hammer, I would like to at least be able to talk about it instead of going, "lol rvs nope i cannot defend that whoops". I thought I was late to the party and missed the chance to RVS, so decided to openly sheep the word321 wagon.

Anyways, it was fine to keep my vote on word321 after that because:

word321 was solid filler for ages in the early game, and spent a lot of time saying he likes other players reads and how they develop the game, but does nothing himself. He does not respond to farside22's vote against him, but then gets upset about, according to him quoting 191, not my vote, but

something completely irrelevant

. 191 is not my case against the guy; it is a comment that players should refer to a wiki for questions about Normal game mechanics before spending time discussing something that might not have anything to do with our game, at all. It is not about the optimal way to play a role, what roles could actually be in the game, and essentially calls some players who are theorizing about a modifier not able to be in our game.

When word321 votes for me, he votes while quoting that; not for my unexplained vote. Here is the kicker: it still is not until my 201 that his theory about a post-restriction role, which he had around 126 and the entire point of him blowing up at me, is resolved. In 80+ posts (not his, the game's) and nearly 24 hours, he could not follow up on his own concern on something both trivial and apparently Madonna-ially damning.

237 is a wall, but a wall just about defense. That does not come out for anything else but to hide behind. For a Day 1 wagon, I think this is crazy and seems like panic.

After that, the majority of his posts come down to meta, which can fuck right off, and it comes down like rain to soak the thread in wine. A whole lot of insight into games that are not this game.

I would feel very, very good about sorting this slot out.

[Madonna]

From page 2 of thread from mod

there are only town and mafia.

Well, damn.

[Madonna]

let me recount
NOBODY VOTE ME or you will be vigged tonight

Also is everyone ignoring this? Are you vig claiming?

I was about to say it does not make sense: lynch me and get vigged (by me)? But then I think he means the vigilante is going to shoot the person who hammers them with the next vote? Is he L-1?

[Madonna]

i'm at L-3...

Noooope, nevermind. He was safe enough just then.

[Madonna]

I don't have the ingredients I need to scumhunt because everyone in this game has been so gung ho on bob and nahdia. I try to build some bandwagons to look back on in the future and what do I get? People posting in all caps and shutting down discussion. I'm not just thinking about today's lynch, I'm thinking about the rest of the game.

Well lets see madonna made a case on word but didn't vote there, which I found odd. She didn't say much about nahdia.
I think NDmath is scum based on his unvote and not even questioning the claim by nadhia. He is following others and actively lurking.
Those not pushing nahdia have caught my attention a bit more then those pushing. Then you have the copycats like stanly and gobble.
Those are my notes thus far.

The pushes for Nahdia and midwaybear dominate now, and support for a word321 wagon is lacking. You can be the change you want to see happen. But if you need me to lead you, alright.

VOTE: word321

On the surface, Nahdia is a great lynch. The quickhammer yesterday was bad, but unless you are tracking the vote count religiously, it was actually hard to follow (and my initial reason for not voting immediately upon joining the game), and no one helpfully claimed L-1. Her claim today is bad in both role and target in a questionable way. It is useless in a scum capacity, and her admitting to targeting the nightkill is a shot against her. If Nahdia's scum, what does she get out of one more day by bussing midwaybear that is a good scum move? She loses her buddy, then she loses herself. That is two of our lynches well-spent on scum (a big loss for them), versus her one death today and a more ambiguous future for midwaybear because town is a fickle beast (one versus two, better). A good lynch, but maybe we can do better.

I wanted to like anything about midwaybear's gameplay, so I took a better look, and I found out two things: I hate it, and not all of it is bad. There are few words for caution, suggestions that we take it slow, and a willingness to question assertions; these are things I normally like. On the other hand, all of that is tangled deep between so much sheeping and a lack of defense for the mindset behind it all that it hurts. I wanted to find a reasonable defense here to help make my word321 case feel better, but honestly I cannot. I have been trying to post with more courtesy, so this is all I got: this player needs experience, as town or scum. Lynchable as all get out.

[Madonna]

The pushes for Nahdia and midwaybear dominate now, and support for a word321 wagon is lacking. You can be the change you want to see happen. But if you need me to lead you, alright.

VOTE: word321

On the surface, Nahdia is a great lynch. The quickhammer yesterday was bad, but unless you are tracking the vote count religiously, it was actually hard to follow (and my initial reason for not voting immediately upon joining the game), and no one helpfully claimed L-1. Her claim today is bad in both role and target in a questionable way. It is useless in a scum capacity, and her admitting to targeting the nightkill is a shot against her. If Nahdia's scum, what does she get out of one more day by bussing midwaybear that is a good scum move? She loses her buddy, then she loses herself. That is two of our lynches well-spent on scum (a big loss for them), versus her one death today and a more ambiguous future for midwaybear because town is a fickle beast (one versus two, better). A good lynch, but maybe we can do better.

I wanted to like anything about midwaybear's gameplay, so I took a better look, and I found out two things: I hate it, and not all of it is bad. There are few words for caution, suggestions that we take it slow, and a willingness to question assertions; these are things I normally like. On the other hand, all of that is tangled deep between so much sheeping and a lack of defense for the mindset behind it all that it hurts. I wanted to find a reasonable defense here to help make my word321 case feel better, but honestly I cannot. I have been trying to post with more courtesy, so this is all I got: this player needs experience, as town or scum. Lynchable as all get out.

For a post about me u sure talk a lot about Nahdia and midway, dnt u think?

Sure. What do you think about my post?

[Madonna]

We have time for this.

VOTE: NDMath

983 is basically: Madonna, the player you have been tunneling all this time, and their townreads are scum. gobbledygook and midwaybear in there for good alt lynches, with no quotable content justifying your gobbledygook read, and with your 992 saying that if NorwegianboyEE and farside22 are scum, midwaybear cannot be. But midwaybear is tiered with the other two, so what gives?

[Madonna]

with 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. day 2 ends june 6th at 13:00 central US time; in (expired on 2020-06-06 13:00:00)

Compromising on Nahdia is fine, but I figured we had more time to pursue the game beyond today's lynch.

I did not vote Nahdia for quicklynch reasons, but if this is where we are at.

VOTE: Nahdia

[Madonna]

There was no "quickjump" on NDMath bc like stan1ey and Aloratom, he has been null and lurking. There is nothing wrong in sorting someone with votes, and I have been clear about not moving hastily.

[Madonna]

I am fine with midwaybear not being on this wagon.

[Madonna]

Was it all fun and games to bus a scum mate until it actually came down to an L-1 and probable hammer, midwaybear?

[Madonna]

I think that IF there’s a deepwolf in my reads it would most likely be Madonna. What’s your take on her right now?

I feel very slimy about her following me and buttering up to me. I want to take a shower.
That said i dont recall her scum reading NdMath prior and for her to suddendly pounch on his read of her just reads fake.

Speaking of following and buttering up, why did you care about my lack of word321 vote, not respond to my takes on Nahdia and midwaybear, and then not care about my word321 vote when it came? It seemed like you wanted a better wagon than midwaybear and Nahdia, I gave you it, and instead you went after NDMath. I am trying to work with other people's plays alongside mine, and you seem to find ways to keep scumleaning/reading me. Bring

a

case against me, because I have not seen one of your own that is not one line here or there.

[Madonna]

I get more of a scum vibe with all your asking stuff of me so it's hard for me to take much of what you say seriously.
IE: I'm bias of your comments. I'm not a fan of anyone who I need to push and then says well I'm following farside. I'm am the wrong player to follow because I always think scum are trying to get on a players good side.

You dismiss my arguements out of hand by not taking them seriously, got it. Interacting with you using questions is scum, got it. You see others doing the same acts with their own justification, you call it following you, got it. That is not a healthy town view, and I dislike it. In case I need to clearly say this: my townread of you is definitely decaying.

I did not vote for bob3141 for your reasons, farside22, and I did not vote NDMath for you reasons, and I am voting for Nahdia because, cycling all the way back around, I do not have word321 support. This is not a case of confidence, this is not for blind sheeping. I have a vote and I need to make it count. When the two big wagons start stalling and people start piling on lurkers, I need to figure out what I want. Staying on word321 was gaining me nothing, and my vote is more helpful on an active wagon. Out of the null reads is a guy out for my blood and I dislike his reads: these are perfectly acceptable reasons to push.

I still do not see a real case coming from you, farside22. I will say you vote confidently when lacking one.

[Madonna]

yeah i didnt like yesterday's wagon, and i dont think this is much better. plus theres still time left, dunno why we are getting so stuck on the obvious policyish lynch when we could be doing legit scumhunting. this should be our backup lynch for deadline if anything

We cannot scumhunt because once some players start voting outside of wagons, it is slimy and buttery.

I agree there is plenty of time to scumhunt, and I agree this has always been a great lynch come deadline and we have not found better leads.

[Madonna]

Got a tiny bit of time before the rest of my Tuesday, so I will be brief.

@farside22:word321 and ManateeDude were wagons prior to a start on mine, it is reasonable to ask other players why wagons on stall and why others start up. Yep, the push on ManateeDude was bad, thus not voting for him.

Yes, I voted bob3141 for different reasons than you. From my point of view, your meta case was the more reaching argument for his lynch.

Cannot have new developments from quicklynching! Glad you got agree with this point, not glad you are using it as an argument.

My word321 case was good enough for when and where it was, and I will say despite not liking him up to that point, word321 has made posts since which I have not weighed in on. His 237 was meta, clearly why you like that, the rest of him was still filler. And yeah, I really do think his vote targeting me instead of Nahdia, Albert B. Rampage, or Aloratom was strange, and his stated reason for doing so was strange. I think maybe he felt I was more lynchable than the others or he had reason to ignore one or all of his prior voters.

My defense of Nahdia was acknowledging she was still a good lynch, though the possibility existed that maybe she just got the short end of the stick.

[Madonna]

At work, this is a prodge, was thinking about the players not on bob's wagon.

[Madonna]

I am here now, and missed a lot. A cop who unvotes with a guilty?

[Madonna]

VOTE: Albert B. Rampage

Back to L-1. Between the two, stan1ey has more possible town value.

Before reading, I would have thought it possible that both were town, but with a guilty, one or the other is scum. Even cop will not get us more, rolestopper can get one? more use before the end.

[Madonna]

Meet the town: popopopopopopo, midwaybear and NorwegianboyEE. I did not like yesterday's 1v1 and felt the other option was the stronger one, and I did not want a short Day 2, but I realized something in reading back. Lynching Nahdia was thanks to popopopopopopo and farside22 for catching her on Day 1 and pressuring hard on Day 2, and that trumps a lot. Catching scum D1, forcing them to quickhammer, and single-mindedly pushing them on D2 is not clever scumplay, and were he scum, he could have pivoted elsewhere at any time to save a buddy. Back to midwaybear and NorwegianboyEE. Wholly different players, wholly different takes on the game, and only one actually reads town. NorwegianboyEE both makes his own pushes and supports other's, and I feel like there is a hammer in his hand, checking the soundness of everything. He is just too pure. I feel midwaybear is town for entirely opposite reasons. midwaybear was the alternative wagon for Nahdia, no one stood by him when the votes came in, and when no one liked his answers to their questions, he gamely held on. That he lives is suspect, but I choose to believe that is a mafia trap instead of losing more sleep over it.

Nullstreet: word321 and NDMath. I had a case Day 1 on word321, I think he panicked when tagged and was happy to drop off everyone's radars. It is

okay

he did not vote Nahdia D2, but not voting D3 is a mark against him, especially when he came in to waffle about the claims. I still feel like he should be scum, but I had to move him up based on other reads below. NDMath also pings badly in terms of reads, namely his confidence of Nahdia and Albert B. Rampage, but he has not been afraid to vote and seems willing to work with others.

These be scum: Aloratom and votato. Aloratom's content is mainly quotes of other players and short responses that do not develop, and that does not give up much with which to work. I want to say that is null, but his content seems deliberately empty. One of the curious remarks that makes Aloratom feel worse is his [p]1069[/p], that mentions 2 mafia parties, and that pings when also looking at votato, and why I have paired them together. The simpler answer is a vigilante, and I do not see why we would want a more complicated theory based on nothing. votato has gotten worse over time. He has called out literally everyone, looking for anything to stick, and yes, he actually defended both other scum and voted against their wagons. votato also is pushing the 2 mafia theory, and the repeated confidence of this theory makes me think he is mafia that is trying to make sure there is not another mafia group.

[Madonna]

VOTE: votato

I worked so hard to get my post out and forgot to vote. See you after work and chores.

Aloratom, I hear your spitball defense.

midwaybear, is there anyone town you read? Because yeah, you need to find scum, but not everyone can be scum.

[Madonna]

VT here, no powers available. Not sure what I was to figure out other than we have a Vigilante, thought that role would be odd-night considering the one death on N2.

Will wait for popopopopopopo to get in here and see what else is claimed, but for now,

UNVOTE:

Going to be honest, usually sorting the VTs is the way to go barring any counterclaims. That is word321, Aloratom, midwaybear, and me, I think, and a pool of four is not bad.

[Madonna]

If we are all agreed that the power roles are likely, then we sort the VTs.

VTs should vote before PRs so the PRs have control of the lynch, and see the lay of the land. VTs, I suggest we share our scumpools, get your voice heard if you are town. Then with all of that, we can discuss who to lynch, jail, and shoot.

VOTE: Aloratom

and {word321 and midwaybear}

[Madonna]

I think we are still waiting on popopopopopopo to vote or maybe intent to L-1 if we are hammer wary, but we really need to pick targets for the alien and vigilante so whatever the night results, we know where we stand. Or is it better to trust the power roles and do it quietly so scum cannot trust their own actions?

[Madonna]

You have my reads prior to the mass claim and you have seen my opinions on the path we have to take. Other than discussing what is the best use the power roles, I have little else to say because lynching the VTs is my plan. You know, the one that puts me at risk so that town may win, so you can comfortably sit there and lob acronyms at me while you stress that you do not want to work with town.

Here, let me lob a bomb your way, if you want analysis:

there are no confirmed town in this game

. Everything is a matter of trust. There is no proof for any of this. We treat the power claims as givens because we trust in both the players and in likelihoods. All of these claims could be argued against. The vigilante is an excuse for a second mafia, the tracker claim handily fell out when someone claimed to have misread rolestopper as roleblocker and it is odd because we know the alien was, and the rolestopper may have stopped the second night nightkill but someone realize they could take credit by claiming to be a universal backup. This is all strictly possible. These are all things we could consider.

But we do not, because paranoia destroys a game, because we learn to trust some players, some more than others, and some

over

others. We make a choice when we say NDMath's claim is valid and Nahdia's is not. We decide that our votes matter, that we can tell when someone votes sincerely or maliciously, that a mislynch can come from a good place, that a player's general performance says that one play does not make him scum. So because of all that, we individually decide and agree that our town, as a group, must be right when we claim we have confirmed town, and I choose to believe that NDMath, NorwegianboyEE, and you, votato, are confirmed town, even though I have explained why that is not a thing. So I have been making a lot of decisions to trust in this game, to analyze that which I have been presented, and there has been good and bad, and when I need to decide what is right or what I need to assume is true, do not come to me and accuse me of shitty scumtells when I do not bring shit to your door when you imagine you are above scrutiny and do not need to be pro-town. You cannot tell us who you abducted when you are dead, you horned ass.

[Madonna]

oooh spiceyyyy

Devoid of content, scumtell.

feel like ndmath is confirmed 100% no?

Yes and no. Two deaths happen every night. NDMath claiming to be vigilante explains it. There could be two mafia. That too would explain two deaths every night. There is no proof a second mafia exists, and no scum is going to come forward to helpfully explain that yes, there are two factions in the shadows. So then you would ask, why would NDMath claim vig if there are two scum, and you would say because NDMath is scum, and he is claiming vigilante to be town, and we are all fucked if this is true. So it is not true. Because it is 1) complicated and 2) relies on an amazing scumclaim and 3) that is not generally how the game works. So it is easier to say NDMath is confirmed town. Apply it with NorwegianboyEE, and nothing mechanical supports his claim, but we love him anyways (tm), confirmed town. Again with votato, I already explained this, it is acceptably true, so confirmed town. I wanted to explain I have weighed a lot of options, discarded things not deemed worthwhile, versus serving them up as a scum and insisting any of it a case. So to be called out on one agreeably non-essential post in a lull, not thrilled.

I have already voted, I have already shared my scumpool picks, still waiting on others to catch up, still waiting on votato to play his best town.

[Madonna]

I will name my newest pokemon Norwee.

[Madonna]

I normally delete quotes within quotes to prevent walls, but if you need the post Aloratom responds to, this would be it.

What's the purpose of this post? To raise again the possibility of a second mafia? Why do that?

Did you read the quoted post? I was sharing my work with someone who was suggesting I was not doing anything. My post explains I considered it at length and eventually dismissed the idea. In a later post, Aloratom, you again push the idea that I believe the game is multiball, and again, that would be wrong.

Why is everyone so outraged by their scumread? Lynch midwaybear or get over here.

[Madonna]

@Aloratom, 1916: I cannot make you understand what you do not want to, namely 1750 and the context surrounding it, which is why you are consistently wrong and being voted by me.

[Madonna]

Look, I can try.

• I post that we are waiting
• votato calls it bereft of analysis and look at me, i am so town, shading me on one post instead of doing anything better
• I share a whole bunch of stuff that did not make the cut because I am putting work into this game while saying votato only has a role claim that saved him
• popopopopopopo asks if this means NDMath is confirmed or not, he asks this right after my posts so I assume that is what made him ask, so the yes and no is the long and short of it, yes being the simple answer, no being welllllll technically there is a possibility
• Summary: I brought up a dead theory of mine to tell votato to buzz off, said it was dead, popopopopopopo asked if it was a live theory, and I said no

If summaries do not work for you, you can read these quotes to see how it works versus isolating my posts and losing the context, which could cause you confusion. You can also literally just read the thread, but this is here and handy.

I think we are still waiting on popopopopopopo to vote or maybe intent to L-1 if we are hammer wary, but we really need to pick targets for the alien and vigilante so whatever the night results, we know where we stand. Or is it better to trust the power roles and do it quietly so scum cannot trust their own actions?

i mean it would be cool if a neighborizer were to show up right about now. dont like that LAMIST post. thats pure IIoA.

You have my reads prior to the mass claim and you have seen my opinions on the path we have to take. Other than discussing what is the best use the power roles, I have little else to say because lynching the VTs is my plan. You know, the one that puts me at risk so that town may win, so you can comfortably sit there and lob acronyms at me while you stress that you do not want to work with town.

Here, let me lob a bomb your way, if you want analysis:

there are no confirmed town in this game

. Everything is a matter of trust. There is no proof for any of this. We treat the power claims as givens because we trust in both the players and in likelihoods. All of these claims could be argued against. The vigilante is an excuse for a second mafia, the tracker claim handily fell out when someone claimed to have misread rolestopper as roleblocker and it is odd because we know the alien was, and the rolestopper may have stopped the second night nightkill but someone realize they could take credit by claiming to be a universal backup. This is all strictly possible. These are all things we could consider.

But we do not, because paranoia destroys a game, because we learn to trust some players, some more than others, and some

over

others. We make a choice when we say NDMath's claim is valid and Nahdia's is not. We decide that our votes matter, that we can tell when someone votes sincerely or maliciously, that a mislynch can come from a good place, that a player's general performance says that one play does not make him scum. So because of all that, we individually decide and agree that our town, as a group, must be right when we claim we have confirmed town, and I choose to believe that NDMath, NorwegianboyEE, and you, votato, are confirmed town, even though I have explained why that is not a thing. So I have been making a lot of decisions to trust in this game, to analyze that which I have been presented, and there has been good and bad, and when I need to decide what is right or what I need to assume is true, do not come to me and accuse me of shitty scumtells when I do not bring shit to your door when you imagine you are above scrutiny and do not need to be pro-town. You cannot tell us who you abducted when you are dead, you horned ass.

feel like ndmath is confirmed 100% no?

oooh spiceyyyy

Devoid of content, scumtell.

feel like ndmath is confirmed 100% no?

Yes and no. Two deaths happen every night. NDMath claiming to be vigilante explains it. There could be two mafia. That too would explain two deaths every night. There is no proof a second mafia exists, and no scum is going to come forward to helpfully explain that yes, there are two factions in the shadows. So then you would ask, why would NDMath claim vig if there are two scum, and you would say because NDMath is scum, and he is claiming vigilante to be town, and we are all fucked if this is true. So it is not true. Because it is 1) complicated and 2) relies on an amazing scumclaim and 3) that is not generally how the game works. So it is easier to say NDMath is confirmed town. Apply it with NorwegianboyEE, and nothing mechanical supports his claim, but we love him anyways (tm), confirmed town. Again with votato, I already explained this, it is acceptably true, so confirmed town. I wanted to explain I have weighed a lot of options, discarded things not deemed worthwhile, versus serving them up as a scum and insisting any of it a case. So to be called out on one agreeably non-essential post in a lull, not thrilled.

I have already voted, I have already shared my scumpool picks, still waiting on others to catch up, still waiting on votato to play his best town.

[Madonna]

I appreciate you laying it out in that form. You are correct that your ISO does not do it justice. If I disregard the "yes and no" lead in to 1753 and pause at "so it is not true," I believe I understand where you are coming from. And I see that you were and are trying to be transparent in your thought process. I see now where I was incorrectly assigning you a view that you do not hold. I think I saw what I wanted to see in an effort to find a bad guy.

This is the kind of dialogue I've been asking the Town leaders to engage in with the VTs so that Plan A is executed with the best information.

Aloratom's 1920 shows he can work in good faith, so despite that also being one thing he needs to show in order to survive, it is also a pro-town move to see a situation from another's perspective and admit possible error.

What I got from word321's 1922 is that popopopopopopo might be scum for being too on the nose. He nails Nahdia, he was anti-Albert B. Rampage until a claim, and though he pushed midwaybear, we still have not killed midwaybear so it may have been bussing.

I see both Aloratom and word321 coming up with theories and trying to work with others. I do not see that in midwaybear and I note that lynching him is an easy way of exploring the idea midwaybear and popopopopopopo being partners.

VOTE: midwaybear

[Madonna]

Boat: word321

The VTs are still the scum pool, I know it is not me, popopopopopopo was in a position to give us a mislynch but gave us Nahdia, so that leaves word321. He did not even vote, and I cannot see what is a good excuse for that. My reads are otherwise in shreds at this point, but it has to be votato or NorwegianboyEE because it cannot be popopopopopopo.

[Madonna]

Ugh, looking at the recent gameplay, no time yet for a deep dive, and NorwegianboyEE is trampling my heart with 1950 and his general gameplay yesterday. This did not help the planning of the night actions, and with votato being cagey about his intended target, NorwegianboyEE's flat-out refusal to--

p-edit:

So I take forever to type out anything because of an anxious desire to be clear with my words, so color me surprised when you come out swinging with that bold claim, NorwegianboyEE. So either you are scum desperate enough to pull a move from Albert B. Rampage's book, or you are odd-night as the tracker and are pulling a bad gambit. The risk is huge and I intensely dislike it. Bring a case on me, and not one crappy claim that you hope will get you one more day ahead, which is all you need win with a mislynch and a nightkill.

[Madonna]

If you are town, you should take off your vote. If you are scum, you can keep it there.

[Madonna]

Anyways, I am off to bed, work, and will see all of this develop in 20-ish hours. No need for a votato case when you walk up nice and tidy.

Still, if NorwegianboyEE is scum, the question is if word321 is his partner or someone else.