Micro 941 | Brass and Shrapnel | Game Over!

[Kilgamayan]

Making meaningful posts with the V/LA banner up??? LYNCH ALL LIARS VOTE: DkKoba

Dwelled on the merits of massclaiming early when reading over the setup, but I would cast my vote (such as it is) for playing the game 'normally' as long as possible because immediately devolving the game into a role logic puzzle makes it a lot less fun. I feel I am notorious (as much as I haven't played Mafier anywhere in ages and I don't think anyone in this game knows me?) for being total garbo at role theory though so that sentiment may just be me trying to avoid going down a path I know I am much worse at. :v

[Kilgamayan]

No worries, you do what you gotta do to take care of yourself o/

[Kilgamayan]

imo what to do with someone that doesn't want to hammer depends on how they handle the situation. Someone that goes "no I'm townreading them and that's that" and shoves their fingers in their ears can be sent to the guillotine the next day because that reeks of scum wanting to avoid hammering a supersaint. I'd be substantially more willing to give leeway to someone that goes "I'm townreading this person for A B C reasons and I think the case against them doesn't fly for X Y Z reasons" and actually makes an effort to dissuade the lynch onto someone else they find scummier. (Assuming their argumentation isn't all bunk, of course.)

[Kilgamayan]

Dissuade, persuade, everything means the same thing, what are words anyway

[Kilgamayan]

imo what to do with someone that doesn't want to hammer depends on how they handle the situation. Someone that goes "no I'm townreading them and that's that" and shoves their fingers in their ears can be sent to the guillotine the next day because that reeks of scum wanting to avoid hammering a supersaint. I'd be substantially more willing to give leeway to someone that goes "I'm townreading this person for A B C reasons and I think the case against them doesn't fly for X Y Z reasons" and actually makes an effort to dissuade the lynch onto someone else they find scummier. (Assuming their argumentation isn't all bunk, of course.)

Too much word salad 2/10
VOTE: kilga

omgus

FWIW I tend to post little but word lots when playing in ~~~unfamiliar territory~~~

UNVOTE: DkKoba
VOTE: Night 3 Roses

Posts so far have given me a sense of playing a "safely helpful" game; decent post volume but all of the game content is focused around trying to solve the role puzzle or info dropping (such as details about a previous game that used this setup), which doesn't require any real alignment-related effort. Basically active lurking.

ED1 STRONG!

I could also vote for ceejayvinoya, 69 (nice) doesn't explain why Holden is the most awkward player at that point in the game and it's not really a conclusion I agree with (I would have said Hoctac or maybe Tuxedo Mask instead).

[Kilgamayan]

Frankly, I'm surprised the originally-suggested Sailor Moon image wasn't the Sailor Moon Redraw image that's been going around Twitter lately.

[Kilgamayan]

But I am going to have to eventually lynch you for identity theft.

Does it really count as theft if you literally gave them that avatar, though?

---

Heading to bed. DkKoba vs. HoldenGolden reads Town/Town slapfight to me at this juncture. I feel like they may just be talking past each other.

[Kilgamayan]

@Kilga, how do you feel about CJ sheeping you?

I am okay with it given I felt worse about you them when I posted. It helps that 158 is pretty much exactly the response I intended to give to 150, which itself feels like a disingenuous response. Particularly since (a) it doesn't make an attempt to address why my accusation is wrong, and (b) it doesn't differentiate between our post volumes. I would say someone who doesn't post a lot but offers alignment opinions when they do is townier than someone that does post a lot but doesn't offer alignment opinions, regardless of the actual content of those posts.

{gigant-o quote stripe removed for visual clarity}

Given your typing style, its not hard to deduce who you really are lol.

To be clear, is Hoctac actually an alt of a regular player?

[Kilgamayan]

@Kilga, how do you feel about CJ sheeping you?

I am okay with it given I felt worse about you them when I posted. It helps that 158 is pretty much exactly the response I intended to give to 150, which itself feels like a disingenuous response. Particularly since (a) it doesn't make an attempt to address why my accusation is wrong, and (b) it doesn't differentiate between our post volumes. I would say someone who doesn't post a lot but offers alignment opinions when they do is townier than someone that does post a lot but doesn't offer alignment opinions, regardless of the actual content of those posts.

{gigant-o quote stripe removed for visual clarity}

Given your typing style, its not hard to deduce who you really are lol.

To be clear, is Hoctac actually an alt of a regular player?

[Kilgamayan]

*I felt worse about you

them

than him

argle bargle flargle

[Kilgamayan]

Oh what how did that first post post twice

[Kilgamayan]

@Kilga, how do you feel about CJ sheeping you?

I am okay with it given I felt worse about you

them

than him when I posted. It helps that 158 is pretty much exactly the response I intended to give to 150, which itself feels like a disingenuous response. Particularly since (a) it doesn't make an attempt to address why my accusation is wrong, and (b) it doesn't differentiate between our post volumes. I would say someone who doesn't post a lot but offers alignment opinions when they do is townier than someone that does post a lot but doesn't offer alignment opinions, regardless of the actual content of those posts.

your own iso up to that point was 4 posts, all of which were either setup talk or non-game related, pot-calling-kettle-black. before i fell asleep, the only discussion so far was Setup Spec, the few KobavTux posts, and some people wanting to vote Holden (which I actually did ask about but got ignored).

i don't understand what you mean by (b)?
-D

The idea behind (b) is that I feel a larger volume of gameplay posts without alignment-related efforts comes across as "trying to look like one is being helpful without one actually being helpful" than a smaller volume of such posts, which could be explained as simply as "I have notable stretches of time throughout each day where I am able to pay little/no attention to the game". I will grant that it can be tough to dig up alignment opinions on ED1, but DkKoba was at least making such an effort, like with their vote for me (which happened early on and was something you could have made at least one alignment-opinion post about).

I also followed my vote for you a bit later with an alignment opinion on the DkKoba/Holden argument, which you could also have made at least one alignment-opinion by now but haven't.

Basically, for all your posting, I don't actually know what you think about the alignments of anyone in the game, whereas even with my current low volume of posts, I think I have some pretty obvious positive/negative opinions of a few players.

[Kilgamayan]

I mean, everyone that's not scum is going to flip PR :V

@clidd: I played two games here back in 2015 and this marks #3, so odds are p good we haven't played before together

[Kilgamayan]

Both of my games here were Town games. This one was played to completion; this one was aborted.

Scum games are a little harder to sensibly and relevantly come by. My most recent scum game is here, which is also from 2015, but the mechanics of that game were a bit wacky. If you want something other than that, there were a couple of Anon games whose accounts have since been repurposed several times, and then a game from 2009.

[Kilgamayan]

Man, my mind short-circuited for a moment there because I completely forgot that Holmes and Moriarty are actual characters that have appeared in many different mediums and not just a hot dude and a foxy grandpa from everyone's favorite cell phone game.

@Night 3 Roses: I think the post volume difference does matter in that a higher post volume comes across as an active attempt to look good whereas the lower post volume does not. To be sure, not contributing is generally a scummy thing, but I am more wary of someone that's actively trying to look good without actually contributing than someone's that not trying to look good while also not actually contributing.

I will admit I assumed you (or your slot, or whatever term is appropriate) didn't like ceejay or myself not because of any scumhunting justification, but simply because we're voting for you. Aside from Hoctac being unhappy with ceejay for not being original, no one else has seemed to have a problem with the nature of the pressure being applied to you, so I figured it was a safe assumption. I've seen so many players over the years do it, so.

@Hoctac: Is there a reason you ask questions about matters that aren't alignment-indicative in ways that seem to imply you think they are? I am thinking of 74, 119, and the recent 198 in particular. You have an awful lot of fluff as well. I genuinely can't tell if your play/post style is some sort of social experiment (particularly since my question about your potential alt-account-ness wasn't addressed) or if this is actually how you play, and it's throwing my ability to read your slot.

[Kilgamayan]

@Night 3 Roses - These blokes:

https://fategrandorder.fandom.com/wiki/Sherlock_Holmes

https://fategrandorder.fandom.com/wiki/James_Moriarty

There's an event currently going on in the game in the North America servers that heavily involves both of them, so I was already in a mindset of thinking about them.

Anyway, I'm still not entirely satisfied by our exchange, but I will admit I'm not feeling quite as good as I was originally, even given how little one can really feel "good" about ED1 cases. Like, I still think your earlier performance is a mildly scummy approach - "you're assuming i'm trying to look good" and "i was posting because i felt like posting" are things one could just as easily say falsely as scum as truthfully as town, and while yes, town and scum can behave in similar manners and do similar things, there are some town behaviors and actions that are easier to do as scum than other town behaviors and actions, and I think your earlier play falls in the first category there - but your responses have felt more like "slightly offended townie" than "defensive scum", so I'm willing to shelve it for the time being. Particularly given recent happenings. (Also I somehow completely missed the bottom of your 165. Terribly sorry for that.)

UNVOTE: Night 3 Roses
VOTE: Hoctac

I was willing to give the playstyle a pass for the time being under the possibility that the player was someone new that is still feeling out how to play the game and what's important and what's not - we were all clueless newbies at some point - but knowing this approach to the game is coming from someone that should know better sours me on it. Moreover, I really really dislike the vote for DkKoba and explanation thereof, particularly since it came immediately after DkKoba voted for them. I'm not going to defend DkKoba at length, that's for them to do, but I will say that I thought it was obvious why they dropped their spat with Holden, and Holden didn't seem to hold(en) it against them (see 140). The timing of and explanation for Hoctac's vote are incongruous, too - if you take issue with DkKoba "changing their warrant when questioned", why not vote for them after they first unvoted in 186? Hoctac has definitely paying attention to unvotes because they questioned half of Night 3 Roses (Night 1.5 Roses?) about their unvote in 198. And yet there's nothing to say about DkKoba pulling back from the argument with and vote for Holden at the time, but all of a sudden in 208 it's a votable offense? I'm not buying it.

[Kilgamayan]

@N3R (can I call you this?): Flat-out lurking is certainly physically easier, but I think it's also much more likely to get noticed and called out, which is why I personally prioritize looking for minimal effort ahead of no effort.

@Holden: I think DkKoba's frustration reads as genuine. I used to be the same way philosophically about ED1 scumclaiming, and I know people that still are, so I can sympathize with the throwing up of the e-hands at the realization that no one else in the game was buying what they were selling when they thought they had something substantial.

[Kilgamayan]

@N3R (can I call you this?): Flat-out lurking is certainly physically easier, but I think it's also much more likely to get noticed and called out, which is why I personally prioritize looking for minimal effort ahead of no effort.

@Holden: I think DkKoba's frustration reads as genuine. I used to be the same way philosophically about ED1 scumclaiming, and I know people that still are, so I can sympathize with the throwing up of the e-hands at the realization that no one else in the game was buying what they were selling when they thought they had something substantial.

There is a sense of genuineness coming from him, but that came afterwards where he admitted to doing soft pushes that were worth nothing.

As someone who used to be that way, did you escalate that quickly to assumptions like over defensiveness in who responded to your pushes? That's my main gripe with his posts is I feel the quickness of his escalation of frustration is off along with the AI charged language.

I don't believe I really ever escalated that way, but that may be largely because, whenever I pursued someone for scumclaiming as a "joke", I made no secret about that being the reason I was pursuing them. :V

Maybe it was

{REDACTED} Fake Edit: nvm I realized I don't actually want to publicly mention possible justifications for the escalated aggression. That's DkKoba's explanation to provide and I'd rather not list things and have them later point at one and go "yeah that's the one". I did think of a couple, though (including the possibility of it simply being scum BSing), and going back and rereading the argument I couldn't really make a case to myself as to which was the most likely reason.

@clidd: Sorry for not having anything more immediately helpful/relevant wrt scum games Anonymafia is fun but it's a nightmare rereading it after the fact even if one is involved.

[Kilgamayan]

@DkKoba: I'll colon YOUR s :Z Also you may want to try to address Holden's issue with you once and for all if only so everyone can move on.

@clidd: I think it's kind of pointless to ask me about ceejay given he hasn't posted since I last discussed him, but for the sake of posterity, I wasn't overly happy with him in 108, but hey, ED1 cases. His 158 maade me feel a little better about him since it was clear he understood my voting reasons. My read hasn't evolved since then because he flat-out hasn't been here to change it. Given a fair amount has happened since then, including my opinion of N3R evolving a bit and my vote changing, I am rather interested to see how his stances have evolved once he returns.

VOTE: DKkoba

For a pillow push and changing their warrant once questioned.

nice omgus buddy. mad i called your gimmick out?

My vote has nothing to do with your vote on me specifically. Sorry for the confusion.

This is a mind-boggling statement to make in combination with not addressing the second half of the final paragraph I wrote in 215.

Fake edit: Oh hey, there we go. @ceejay: Any update on your N3R stance?

[Kilgamayan]

Big ol' at ceejay not at least providing some sort of update regarding his N3R vote despite being prompted. Slidin' down the happy list as a result. (I'm rather surprised Iconeum had nothing to say about this.)

Basically, for all your posting, I don't actually know what you think about the alignments of anyone in the game, whereas even with my current low volume of posts, I think I have some pretty obvious positive/negative opinions of a few players.

Strongly disagree. You are pushing us on something that your slot is guilty of to a worse extent.
If you have those opinions, they ain't in your iso and they definitely weren't at the tim of your push on us. So I don't understand how it's natural for you to have that scumread.

To put it bluntly, you (or your slot, or whatever) were in the thread and posting, I wasn't. Obviously I can't prove this now, but had I been active in the thread to that degree, I would have at least tried to post a few alignment-discerning things. Had I been as active in the thread as your slot was while avoiding posting things that were attempts to discern alignments, then I would absolutely concede that point to anyone that called me out on that behaviour.

Like, I still think your earlier performance is a mildly scummy approach - "you're assuming i'm trying to look good" and "i was posting because i felt like posting" are things one could just as easily say falsely as scum as truthfully as town, and while yes, town and scum can behave in similar manners and do similar things, there are some town behaviors and actions that are easier to do as scum than other town behaviors and actions, and I think your earlier play falls in the first category there - but your responses have felt more like "slightly offended townie" than "defensive scum", so I'm willing to shelve it for the time being. Particularly given recent happenings. (Also I somehow completely missed the bottom of your 165. Terribly sorry for that.)

I don't understand your take and conclusions here. If something can come from scum just as easily as town, how are you scumreading it? You literally just said it's NAI yourself.
At least the reassessing and trying to solve here is a +.

Like I said, there are some town behaviors and actions that are easier to do as scum than other town behaviors and actions. I saw an action that could qualify as townie behavior but was on the easier end of the spectrum for scum to be doing instead, so I voted it. It was hardly a slam-dunk thing, but for ED1? Sure.

@enomis: DkKoba unvoted in 186 rather than 207.

[Kilgamayan]

Quick q between work and other stuffs I gotta do

@Tuxedo Mask: Why is your vote presently on ceejay? I don't necessarily object to voting for him, but you put that vote down in 120 and a lot has happened since then. How has your case evolved since then?

[Kilgamayan]

You quoted two of my posts and added no commentary, what was I supposed to say to that? >_>

I linked to past games of mine because I was asked. If I wasn't asked I wouldn't have done it. I'm not sure what you're getting at there?

[Kilgamayan]

@DkKoba: I'll colon YOUR s :Z Also you may want to try to address Holden's issue with you once and for all if only so everyone can move on.

What makes you believe I'm asking others about Phoneix Human Rights solely to gather information on him?

Why would you want Dkkoba to end the questioning when the matter is partially outside of his control? I know you see us as TvT, but why shut the down on my questioning solely for that?

I was referring to Koba not addressing something of yours that you had to badger them about. Looking back at your combined ISOs, though, it looks like (a) I may have mentally combined your earlier frustrations during the argument you two had with your active request to have Koba address your 140, and (b) it actually was eventually addressed and I missed it because Koba responded to 140 directly after your request without explicitly acknowledging your request. So that comment of mine was in error. Sorry about that to both of you. (Obviously I have no interest in shutting down any sort of meaningful discussion, never mind that I couldn't even if I wanted to.)

To address the timing of my push comments: That was just when I decided to have a reread of the thread and picked on the things I mentioned on DkKoba.

I have a very hard time believing this. There were not very many posts between your 178 and your 198, but that collection of posts included both Koba's unvote (186) and N3R's vote change (197). Your 198 questions N3R about their unvote, so clearly you are paying some degree of attention to (at-the-time) current activities, and are particularly interested in unvotes, but you had nothing at all to say about Koba's unvote.

@ ceejay's empty unvote. Sliding further down the happy list. Would be happy to vote in this direction should I have a reason to no longer be voting Hoctac.

Koba vs. Tuxedo feels like Koba vs. Holden all over again. Don't think poorly of either of them at this juncture.

VOTE: vote[/vote

This might be my favorite Mafier post ever.

[Kilgamayan]

Koba vs. Tuxedo feels like Koba vs. Holden all over again. Don't think poorly of either of them at this juncture.

Can you elaborate on your town read of DKKoba? Is it still based in you two having a similar playstyle? Or is there more that I'm not seeing?

It's basically a combination of my previous opinion on them and the fact that I did not think they were actually making some sort of attempt to shut down clidd's playstyle (338 in particular reads as a flippant response that does not take your 337 seriously). Koba has straight-up admitted to having a bullying playstyle (see 315) and in that context their approach to clidd and everything that happened immediately after that makes plenty of sense.

OTOH I don't necessarily philosophically agree with bullying playstyles, which is why I also have no issue with your response to Koba. Hence my TvT opinion of the spat.

I had mentally lost track of the fact that there are still multiple RVS votes in the vote count until Datisi said something! Would really rather see those votes get placed in serious places. :V

[Kilgamayan]

holden my dude you still have your rvs vote up, does it reflect your reads or

also same question at enomis

It doesn't but I wanna see how HocTac respond first.
Also, I don't really have a scumread at this point.

Can you give an example of how you would vote given Hoctac does a certain thing? Something like "If Hoctac's response does A B C I would then vote X Y Z".

ceejay, i think someone asked earlier for your current read on holden (and sorry if i missed your reply), what is it?

-D

Holden is probably town. I'm backing off.

who are the scums then?

-D

No idea. Maybe someone in enomis/Hoctac. I'm having trouble townreading either.

Why not vote for one of them, then?

Fuck me logging out anf in into hydra is dumb

Perhaps you could log in to different accounts using different browsers? That should be feasible even on mobile.

[Kilgamayan]

Why not vote for one of them, then?

Want Hoctac to come back first

I'll ask what I asked of enomis of you as well, then. Can you give an example of how you would vote given Hoctac does a certain thing? Something like "If Hoctac's response does A B C I would then vote X Y Z".

[Kilgamayan]

I have nothing particularly new or interesting to add since my last post, beyond a general worry that Hoctac's extended absence will dull people to the case against them.

Mildly surprised some people are having difficulty getting reads they find worthy of a vote? I don't think anyone is expecting anyone else to have a slam-dunk scum case against someone, but there has to be scum somewhere, so why not vote for something that rankles you, even if only slightly? It's not like votes are sticky if you decide later that you were wrong.

[Kilgamayan]

zzz

[Kilgamayan]

I suppose that in lieu of anything new to say about any of the people I'd be willing to vote for (Hoctac, ceejay, enomis, in roughly that order), I will at least mention that N3R has been sliding pretty consistently up my happy list and I am no longer remotely interested in their lynch

For as much as I doubt it would happen today anyway

[Kilgamayan]

That's an awful lot of posts to not address this:

To address the timing of my push comments: That was just when I decided to have a reread of the thread and picked on the things I mentioned on DkKoba.

I have a very hard time believing this. There were not very many posts between your 178 and your 198, but that collection of posts included both Koba's unvote (186) and N3R's vote change (197). Your 198 questions N3R about their unvote, so clearly you are paying some degree of attention to (at-the-time) current activities, and are particularly interested in unvotes, but you had nothing at all to say about Koba's unvote.

[Kilgamayan]

I'm starting to get the impression the void is tired of my screaming.

[Kilgamayan]

@Tuxedo Mask: My top scumread is Hoctac, hence my voting them and spending a number of posts calling them out on their behavior surrounding their Koba vote. I'm not sure how this could possibly be unclear to someone that has been reading my posts? I also don't really agree with the assessment that my play has been 'passive' - I've been actively trying to state reads on things without being prompted to do so because that's how scum get hunted - but I suppose I am biased on the matter.

Regarding #135, at the time, it felt to me like there was a misunderstanding between Koba and Holden and both of them simply did not notice (or did not notice enough to think to clarify things).

Given end-of-day consolidation is looking like it's going to be a thing, I will state that my lynch preference order hasn't really changed from 495 (Hoctac > ceejay > enomis). I suppose I could be convinced to vote for clidd - he has seemed generically fine at a glance but his posts haven't left much of any sort of impression on me - but certainly not ahead of any of the three on my priority list. Needing to vote for anyone else to secure a lynch ranges from mildly annoying to very annoying.

[Kilgamayan]

@Tuxedo: Framing my vote as being "parked" is pretty disingenuous on your part, honestly. Nothing Hoctac has done has made me want to change it; see 515, which quotes my major problem with Hoctac's Koba vote. There has been no movement to my vote because Hoctac went a while without posting, and then defended against OMGUS charges while ignoring my major issue stated in 389 (which is quoted in 515). Note that this approach to defense, delaying and then ignoring/misdirecting, is also a scummy act.

---

A restatement of my issue with Hoctac, for (hopefully) full clarity

Koba voted Hoctac in 207, and Hoctac turned around and voted Koba in 208. An argument can be had over how scummy OMGUS is, or if it is even scummy or not, but that is a discussion for another time. The important thing to look at here is Hoctac's vote reason: "For a pillow push and changing their warrant once questioned." This is later expanded upon in 214 with "Additionally, they implied they disliked Holden's defensiveness, yet switched their vote to me too quickly, indicating they were unhappy with pursuing that push since it was drawing questions into their alignment and motives", and in 240, Hoctac adds that "My vote has nothing to do with your vote on me specifically."

Why is this scummy?

This is discussed in my 389, but for the sake of clarify, I'll explain again.

* Hoctac posts and is engaged with the game in 178.
* Koba unvotes Holden in 186.
* N3R unvotes clidd (an RVS vote) and votes ceejay in 197.
* Hoctac questions N3R's 197 unvote in 198.

Hoctac is at least someone active and engaged with the game in this interval of time, because 178 and 198 are both game-engaged posts. Hoctac is also keeping track of unvotes, as evidenced in 198 by questioning N3R's unvote.

The kicker here is that no effort whatsoever is made to engage with Koba over Koba's unvote, despite Hoctac clearly paying attention unvotes. No voting for or questioning of Koba whatsoever. If the vote and justification in 208 and the further elaborations in 214 and 240 were genuinely what TownHoctac thought, then Hoctac would have made an effort to engage with Koba over Koba's 186 unvote in 198, if not sooner.

As no effort was made in that interval of posts, it is simple to conclude that Hoctac's Koba vote and reasoning was not genuine, and as such Hoctac is scum.

---

If Hoctac is somehow telling the truth then I will look elsewhere, but there is no way to know this until Hoctac flips, so this is a rather pointless question at this juncture.

[Kilgamayan]

FEI I will be asleep when deadline hits (UTC - 5) and I had an utterly exhausting day today so odds are good I'll be in bed within a couple of hours.

enomis hopping onto the ceejay wagon whilst ignoring Holden's stated desire that enomis be a possible hammer vote is rather sus, particularly since ceejay was Holden's other stated hammerer preference and ceejay is presumably not going to hammer himself. Trying to dodge #SUPERSAINTRISK, enomis?

@Hoctac: I have an extremely hard time believing you didn't notice Koba's unvote at the time, given you were present in the thread and questioned N3R about their unvote. Not only does your questioning of N3R demonstrate that you were paying attention to unvotes, but N3R's unvote was (a) taking back an RVS vote, and (b) mechanically moot given N3R then voted for someone else in the same post. It was an incredibly pointless question, but also simultaneously was, if we are to believe you are town, more worth asking about than Koba's meaningful unvote. Like, sure, it's not physically impossible for someone that drew a town PM to behave like this, but it's exceedingly unlikely.

[Kilgamayan]

@Hoctac: Why on Earth were you intentionally playing in a useless manner, then? "My own entertainment" is not a valid reason to act detrimentally in a team game.

@enomis: I know I'm town but I'm not afraid to hammer someone I think is scum if that's what the rest of the game wants, regardless of the supersaint possibility. This is a team effort, and if risking getting rid of me in that manner helps the overall town state, then hey, let's do it. I would think any town player would at least be sympathetic to the idea, if not ready to go along with it, while scum have much more of a reason to wait to avoid hammering a supersaint.

FWIW I would be delighted to see you hammer Hoctac or ceejay (or see either of them hammer you, or have one of them hammer the other), if not wanting to be beHolden to only Holden is really that much of a sticking point.

In fact, I think it would be best if people made clear who they would like to see possibly be a hammer on whatever lynch is eventually achieved.

[Kilgamayan]

*wait = want

[Kilgamayan]

Hrngh

On one hand, I'm not overly impressed by PenguinPower's stated reasons for the Koba push in 639 and 640. I found myself coming up with counterarguments to most of them in my head as I was reading them. I'm not going to actively defend Koba on most of it - that's their job, not mine - but at the very least, citing setup spec/setup solve attempts as a reason for scumminess while using "in this other game that used the same setup, a town player with strong mechanical abilities botched it and their mistake won the game for scum" looks internally incongruous. Like, I'm not sure how "scum win past game due to townie beefing setup spec" implies "current game player beefing setup spec means player is scum" as opposed to "current game player beefing setup spec means player is probably town and just bad at setup spec". Particularly given the question about roleblocking and bombs, the answer to which has been public information since this game was added to the queue.

OTOH Koba's tack has noticably changed since coming under fire, which is bizarre for someone that comes from a community that tends to favor a bullying playstyle. I feel like they'd be used to irritating pressure by now? I was wondering if the change in tack was because of the misgendering, because I get how that can be very frustrating, but Koba implied it's only part of the reason, so the change in tack is at least partially because of game pressure.

I guess what this means is that I'm no longer willing to vote for the clidd slot currently occupied by PenguinPower, and I am substantially more open to voting for Koba than I was before. I will be interested to see where this goes once Koba has cooled off.

[Kilgamayan]

Also:

Why do we want Ceejay lynched?

Quick summary is that he's been both low volume and low content, and doesn't really seem to have notable negative feelings about anyone, not since the N3R unvote in 381. He's expressed misgivings about enomis but they apparently aren't enough to warrant a vote.

[Kilgamayan]

@PenguinPower: It's still suspect no matter how often he does it. If he does indeed get a replacement and the replacement produces content and opinions, though, then I'd be willing to drop the suspicion. (Assuming, of course, that the content and opinions aren't terrible, etc. etc. etc.)

[Kilgamayan]

what even are the wagons at right now?
-D

Most recent VC:

Votecount 1.12

Hoctac(3)

~ Night 3 Roses(88), HoldenGolden(79), Kilgamayan(34)

ceejayvinoya(3)

~ Hoctac(65), enomis(24), Tuxedo Mask(67)

Tuxedo Mask(1)

~ DkKoba(130)


Not Voting (2): clidd(37), ceejayvinoya(30),

With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch.

Day 1 deadline is in (expired on 2020-05-30 05:21:12)

clidd has requested to be replaced

Since then, clidd-turned-PP voted for Koba, but everything else is unchanged.

[Kilgamayan]

I think whatever scripts generates those votecounts is getting fooled by the wording of my 567 into thinking I unvoted. :V

[Kilgamayan]

Mmm, PP railing against the ceejay lynch possibility made me go back and reread a bit.

@enomis - Why exactly are you voting for ceejay? You've been pretty gung-ho about it (see 575 and 620) but looking through your ISO I don't really see a stated reason anywhere for your vote, beyond "I have a gut feeling that he's scum" in 620, which is, uh, not a whole lot considering your apparent enthusiasm for his lynch.

Fake edit: Hoctac, you are free to stop misinterpreting my explanation for my vote as "Hoctac OMGUSed Koba" at, like, any time. I might even feel less inclined to vote for you!

[Kilgamayan]

Bluhhhhh actually the more I dwell on it the more I want to do this. WAGON DECONSOLIDATION WITH LESS THAN 12 HOURS LET'S GO

UNVOTE: Hoctac
VOTE: enomis

The more I think about the multiple instances of "hey everyone let's lynch ceejay" without any effort to explain

why

we should vote for ceejay (not even in the original ceejay vote) the more I dislike it. I also was not impressed by our exchange related to hammer votes, which makes me feel even better about this, but the reasonless vote and continued enthusiastic pushes are really bad.

[Kilgamayan]

@Hoctac: 567. You have responded to it, and I imagine your response will not have changed, so there's no reason to waste topic space by doing it again. The point is that boiling that explanation down to "Hoctac OMGUSed Koba" is

incredibly

disingenuous.

@Koba: See 725 and 728 for why I'm now voting enomis, at the very least.

[Kilgamayan]

Back, but I don't know how much longer for.

enomis is at L-1 with both of your votes; Tuxedo Mask also voted for enomis right after I did (730).

Fake edit: vwoop

[Kilgamayan]

Overnight thoughts. Can't wait for one or more of these people to have died and made me look stupid with their flips!

The enomis train

---

Kilgamayan

- Well, I know I'm town.

Tuxedo Mask

- Bluh. Had previously expression suspicion of enomis in 553, but (a) it seems to come about largely as a result of PoE (the post also lists Holden, N3R, Hoctac, Clidd, and myself in the Town section), and (b) it comes right alongside a suspicion of ceejay. (This is going to get PbP-ish, but I promise it's going somewhere.) Changes vote to ceejay in 558, but proceeds to question me in 562 about why I don't like ceejay and enomis, as well as I why I dislike ceejay more at the time, and then also questions enomis in 576 about "why CJ over Hoctac", despite having his own vote on ceejay at the time. The kicker than comes in 730, with a statement about thinking Hoctac and Koba are down while switching his vote to enomis on the grounds that ceejay may be getting replaced. The problem with all this? Between 553 and 730, Tuxedo Mask has town reads on everyone but ceejay and enomis and is willing to vote either of them, but does not appear to ever make an effort to reconcile these with the fact that ceejay and enomis actively dislike each other (and have actively disliked each other for a while, including enomis voting for ceejay). I feel like Town Tuxedo would want to stop and rethink given he is town reading six players and scum reading two players in a two-scum game while those two scumreads were actively hostile toward each other and had been hostile toward each other for a while. I also feel like (a) questioning people over why they would prefer to vote ceejay over other people while he himself is voting ceejay, and (b) changing his vote from ceejay to a person voting ceejay that ceejay thinks is scum means Tuxedo doesn't really care that much about the implications of his scumreads.

(Also worth noting that Tuxedo Mask leaves his vote on enomis even after ceejay starts posting again, which makes it clear that ceejay is not getting a replacement, which eliminates the reason for switching to enomis in 730. Koba had just voted ceejay in 778 as well before ceejay started posting again, so a ceejay lynch was definitely viable at that point.)

ceejayvinoya

- Vote seems reasonable to me; even with his limited post volume, ceejay had been displeased with and poking at enomis for most of the day. Perfectly logical vote for a Town ceejay.

HoldenGolden

- Noooooot great. 568 mentions a preference to have enomis hammer the day's lynch "for reasons I'm about to post", but those reasons are never actually posted, and his 573 reread of enomis's ISO results in concluding that it "isn't nearly as bad as I thought I saw". He briefly engages with enomis about the hammering discussion/issue in 635, but the wording doesn't seem to imply "I think you are scummy for thinking this way", and then Holden doesn't mention enomis again until the vote despite having plenty of time to engage in the PP/Koba argument.

DkKoba

- I'm feeling pretty good about TownKoba given ScumKoba would have known enomis was town and therefore could have very safely and easily let PP hammer enomis instead as PP said he would do. Jumping in to hammer a possible SuperSaint when there was stated intent to hammer from elsewhere just seems so needlessly risky for little-to-no benefit.

---

tl;dr

ceejay's vote is null at worst

,

Koba's vote looks town

, Tuxedo's

and Holden's

votes look scummy. VOTE: Tuxedo Mask because I think his vote is somewhat worse than Holden's,

but they're both pretty bad and I wouldn't be sad to see Holden get lynched instead

.

(None of this is to say ceejay is definitely town, of course.)

Wow, didn't expect the night to take out THAT much of the enomis lynch. Makes me feel better about my Tuxedo vote, though!

[Kilgamayan]

I wrote it up overnight and hit refresh at a time when the thread was in the process of getting updated. :shrug:

[Kilgamayan]

UNVOTE: Tuxedo Mask

[Kilgamayan]

It's not necessarily LYLO because of role shenanigans but I'm willing to pump the brakes, sure.

[Kilgamayan]

I think the most likely scenario is that scum killed Koba and ceejay shot Holden. ceejay would have been a weird scum kill because a fair amount of the player base had at least mild suspicions of him, and Holden would have been a weird scum kill because his approach to the enomis lynch probably made him a tempting mislynch candidate. I admit I may be biased by my train analysis, though.

(To be clear, my preferred vote is still Tuxedo regardless of any current analysis of how last night went down.)

I am up for a massclaim of vig versus unspecified nonvig; it may give scum more info with which to work Night 2, but if there actually is a Night 2 it will be because scum was lynched today, so I don't mind that so much.

Fake Edit: I would prefer Tuxedo claim first given that's where my hypothetical vote is going, but I'll need some time to think about everyone else. Gotta get back to work for a couple more hours.

[Kilgamayan]

(In quickly thinking about it, that "most likely scenario" assumed ceejay was a regular vig. If ceejay was a blank vig then there's any number of possibilities at this juncture. OKAY ACTUALLY DOING WORK NOW BBL)

[Kilgamayan]

(Popping in real quick)

It definitely said 6 alive earlier because that was why I was willing to snapvote

I was prepared to argue that I didn't need to unvote because a two-scum rush onto someone with one vote wouldn't accomplish anything with 6 alive but then I double-checked and it said 5 and

whoops

unvote became a good deal more prudent

I am glad to know I wasn't just imagining things earlier

(Back to work)

[Kilgamayan]

Uhhhh I guess off the top of my head my preferred claim order is Tuxedo -> Hoctac -> PP -> N3R

I would not be too terribly fussed if PP claimed before Hoctac or if N3R claimed before PP though, I would need to do a proper reread of all three of you before feeling more concretely about anything other than "Tuxedo first"

[Kilgamayan]

@Hoctac: If everyone else wants N3R to claim earlier I wouldn't be particularly miffed. Like I said, that was off the top of my head, and I need to do a fair bit of rereading if I am to possibly come up with a ranking I feel stronger about than that one. (Confession: I didn't bother rereading any of the three of you overnight because I had other stuff to do over the weekend and train analysis was more important.)

[Kilgamayan]

To keep the ball rolling a little bit...

@PP and @N3R: Both Hoctac and I have Tuxedo high on our lists. Would you prefer he claim sooner, or later? Or do you not particularly care?

[Kilgamayan]

Non-vig here. Part of me regrets not RPing as Alte in this game but it was probably for the best anyway.

[Kilgamayan]

Oh hey, double-checking the rules, that's one too many non-vig claims. Makes me feel a bit better about Hoctac without thinking about it too hard.

[Kilgamayan]

Bluh, rubbing two more brain cells together made me realize that yeah Hoctac's claim being the only vig claim is NAI since it was completely safe fakeclaim at that point.

Urgh I cannot brain this afternoon for the life of me.

[Kilgamayan]

Sorry for disappearing for a while there, mushbrain has continued well into the night and I will probably not be useful for further investigations until tomorrow afternoon at the earliest. I can at least put a little bit of less mindful stuff out this evening, though.

A slight correction to myself; When I said Hoctac's vig claim was a completely safe fakeclaim, I had accidentally swapped the order of Hoctac's claim and PP's claim in my head, so no, it technically wasn't a completely safe fakeclaim at that point. Really, though, the more I thought about it, them more I realized that trying to divine anything from the roleclaims is largely an exercise in futility, and in retrospect was likely to be such no matter the order we chose. At best, I think scum would be more likely to fakeclaim nonvig as the first claim of the day given we have three vigs flips, but that by itself doesn't prove Tuxedo is scum or anything like that.

---

So now we pretty much know for a fact that ceejay killed Holden, and Dk was killed by scum? This makes no sense to me.

I dunno, it seems reasonable to me. Koba was loud and brash and going to be a very difficult mislynch after that hammer vote, and ceejay had misgivings about Holden earlier on Day 1. He did eventually warm to Holden over the course of the day, but Holden's enomis vote was pretty gursh-durn bad when analyzed after the fact, and it wouldn't surprise me if ceejay never truly took his eye off of Holden.

---

@Tuxedo Mask: I will admit that the "why are you townreading six people and scumreading two people who hate each other and not bothering to try to reconcile this" by itself would not serve as a good case by itself. It is better thought of as a lesser supporting argument to the main overall accusation of "you don't actually care about your votes or who gets lynched".

Also, CJ didn't come back till near the end of the deadline, there wasn't exactly the time to completely move the Enomis wagon over at that time.

This, however, is observably false. Checking back to 719, which was posted with about 12 hours to go in the day, the vote count was as follows:

ceejayvinoya (3): Tuxedo Mask, Hoctac, enomis
Hoctac (3): Kilgamayan: Night 3 Roses, HoldenGolden
DkKoba (1): PenguinPower

No Vote: ceejayvinoya, DkKoba

From there:

* Hoctac unvoted ceejay in 717 because of the presumed incoming replacement (they mention in 706 that they "Still prefer ceejay" to Koba)
* I switch from Hoctac to enomis in 728 (11.5 hrs to deadline)
* You switch from ceejay to enomis in 730 because of the presumed incoming replacement
* Koba votes ceejay in 779 (8.5 hrs to deadline); ceejay reappears in the very next post
* ceejay votes enomis in 796
* Holden switches from Hoctac to enomis in 797 (7 hrs to deadline)

Now the votecount looks like this, with about 7 hours to go:

ceejayvinoya (2): enomis, DkKoba
Hoctac (1): Night 3 Roses
DkKoba (2): PenguinPower, Hoctac
enomis (4): Kilgamayan, Tuxedo Mask, ceejayvinoya, HoldenGolden

Sure, enomis is in the lead, and PP has expressed willingness to compromise on enomis a few hours later if need be (794).

But!

* 7 hours is still plenty of time left in a day to change a lynch, particularly in a 9-player setting. I've seen lynches change far faster than that in larger settings.
* enomis went from 0 to 4 in the span of 4.5 hours. Surely ceejay could go from 2 to 5 in the span of 7 hours.
* In fact, two people in that seven-hours-left vote count who are not voting for ceejay preferred (allegedly) to vote ceejay but moved away because of the potential replacement. Once ceejay started posting again, that was clearly not going to happen. If those people had moved back to ceejay once they saw he was posting again, the vote count would have looked like this:

ceejayvinoya (4): enomis, DkKoba, Hoctac, Tuxedo Mask
Hoctac (1): Night 3 Roses
DkKoba (1): PenguinPower
enomis (3): Kilgamayan, ceejayvinoya, HoldenGolden

With about 7 hours left to go, there would have been pleeeenty of time to find a fifth ceejay vote. Given you publicly preferred a ceejay vote to an enomis vote (because why else would you have been voting ceejay and not enomis before the potential replacement comment was made?), I believe Town Tuxedo would have seen ceejay come back and either switched back to ceejay or made an effort to explain why his vote was going to remain on enomis. You offered neither of these things despite having time to funpost (802). This is primarily why I think you did not actually care who you were voting for or who got lynched, and thus why I think you are scum.

[Kilgamayan]

I would like to believe my enomis suspicion did not come out of nowhere; I mentioned a general willingness to vote him in 495. (This willingness came about from his total lack of a case he was willing to push and having his RVS vote still down; see his 431 and my 464.)

Said willingness increased due to enomis's attitude regarding being a hammer vote on an unknown: for full progression, see Holden's 568, enomis's 575, my 577, enomis's 622, and my 632. This by itself wasn't fully worthy of a vote switch but it still rankled and got my mind's attention a bit more on enomis than it had been before.

The final impetus to change came about as a result of PP asking why people wanted ceejay lynched (634). PP and I had a small back-and-forth on the issue - see 693, 694, [pst]697[/post], and 699. This got me doubting ceejay's scumminess a bit (725), so I went back and did a quick reread of why enomis was voting for ceejay (easy enough given enomis's low post total), and found that he had pretty much

no

reason beyond "gut" but was still pushing the lynch pretty hard. I state this in the post where I change my vote (728). If you desire the specific evidence for this, going through enomis's ISO should be sufficient, but meaningful ceejay/enomis interactions prior to enomis's vote for ceejay are found in 443, 444/449, 450, and 530 (enomis's vote is in 532). I didn't see a good reason to vote for ceejay as a result of that exchange. After that is multiple instances of "hey let's lynch ceejay" without any further attempt explain to people why they should vote for ceejay (575 and 620, the latter of which mentions "gut").

I didn't mention this at the time, but I had also started to doubt my Hoctac vote - even with Hoctac at 3 votes, I felt like I had spent so much of the day trying to sell people on my Hoctac case, but no one was buying it (this is why I posted 528), and only Holden seemed to buy in after the restatement of the case in 567. I recalled at least a couple of people having townreads on Hoctac without engaging with any of the pushing I had done on the case (I have no particular post reference for this atm, but I can try to dig up something for you later if you really want), and it was so incredibly frustrating, but also perhaps indicative of the quality of the case, and between that and the overall collection of Hoctac's responses over the course of the day, I started thinking "...maybe this really is just a stupid wordswordswords D1 case that isn't actually meaningful". The enomis case felt a lot more solid by comparison, since it was based primarily around (a lack of) voting reasons, so I decided to go with what I felt better about.

I did not bother mentioning Hoctac in my D2 opener because Hoctac was not on the enomis lynch (I mention this in 869). Also, this may be divergent from the norm here, but one of my general philosophies is to avoid continuing D1 cases into D2 unless there's a

really

good reason to do so, because train/flip analysis is stronger than any wordswordswords game people may be playing on D1. This is not to say that I think Hoctac is town or that I will never vote for them again, of course, only that I have dunked my D1 case on them into the circular file.

All of this is just a really bad angle to use as a scumread, ever. Especially with both PP claiming not being here at deadline and me in my usual weekend VLA. Would it have been possible? Sure. Maybe. Who knows. But what is scum!indicative of Tux for saying that?

It demonstrates lack of caring who gets lynch. Like, yes, maybe Tuxedo and Hoctac swinging back to ceejay isn't enough to find a fifth vote. But if ceejay is your preferred lynch, then you have to at least

try

to get him lynched if the opportunity presents itself (which is did with Koba's vote for ceejay). The worst case scenario is that not enough people go for it and you go back and lynch enomis anyway. Scum Tuxedo would not have cared which of the two got lynched, and Tuxedo's actual play is more indicative of that mindset. I would have expected Town Tuxedo to say/do something like "well now that ceejay isn't getting replaced I'm returning my vote to him and still prefer his lynch but I am okay with going back to enomis if needed to make sure someone gets lynched".

[Kilgamayan]

I doubt there was 0 scum on the lynch D1.

FWIW this is also part of my Scum Tuxedo conclusion, because I also doubt it was five townies given how it came to be, and four of the votes are three town flips and myself, so. (I alluded to this at the end of my opening post today but haven't bothered pushing it since I am not confirmed town to anyone else.)

[Kilgamayan]

Sorry for the lack of activity today, I've had a massive pounding headache for most of it and slept through a bunch of it and am soon to go off and try again.

I am curious about the overnight writeup ping, though. Is that not a thing anyone does at this site? I mean, clearly no one else in this game did it, but it's certainly not unheard of in other places I've played over the years.

[Kilgamayan]

Still not 100%, but getting better. Hopefully I will be able to be more active tomorrow afternoon and actually read for interactions and stuff.

@PP: RE: Walls and related discussion - I suppose all I can do is grind my teeth in frustration and hope a playstyle different doesn't lead to catastrophe, then. I can try to keep things shorter, but some times things just need long explanations to maximize clarity. (I did mention early on that I tend to "tend to post little but word lots" in 108; I will grant that I most likely have the longest average post length in the game, but at the same time I have a comparatively low post count, which I think leads to a total word volume that is at least comparable to everyone else's.)

The fact that they were the last two and split and Kilga's response to that also pinged me.

To be clear, are you discounting yourself with this statement? You (885) and I (888) were the last two; Hoctac (883) claimed before you.

@Tuxedo Mask: I did not mean to say you were happy with

any

lynch. If that is how what I wrote came across, that's my bad. To be clear, I meant to say that I don't believe you cared which of ceejay or enomis got lynched. Yes, you had suspicions of both of them, but you prioritized ceejay earlier in the day for

some

reason, and the only stated reason you switched to enomis was because of the potential replacement. I feel like Town Tuxedo, upon seeing ceejay reappear and thus eliminate the possibility of a replacement, would have acknowledged ceejay's return in

some

fashion, either by switching the vote back to ceejay or explaining why you now prefer enomis. That you did not do either of these while demonstrably having the time to do so is why I suspect you.

@N3R: By "the way it came to be" I meant how the enomis train went from 0 to 5 in the span of roughly 5 hours near the end of the day. Even as one of the people that voted for enomis, I acknowledge that the train on the whole was ostensibly a mad dash to a lurker with an easy case against them, instead of a lynch that would have been more informative in seeing how people came down on one side or the other, such as ceejay or Hoctac (or even Koba). That is, it was a much easier vote for scum to cast, and as such the wagon needed to be scrutinized for who on it may have been scum. After looking over the not-me people on it and why they were there, I concluded that Tuxedo was the most likely scum with Holden not too far behind.

[Kilgamayan]

Posting from bed to remind myself to take a different approach in tomorrow's rereads. Rather than looking at pairings, I need to go back and look at who has been demonstrably wrong in their main suspicions, and determine who had better reasons for thinking the way they did versus who had worse reasons for thinking the way they did. This might just be paranoid bedtime thought racing but I'm starting to get cold mental feet on Tuxedo the more I dwell on this situation.

[Kilgamayan]

[quote="In

Posting from bed to remind myself to take a different approach in tomorrow's rereads. Rather than looking at pairings, I need to go back and look at who has been demonstrably wrong in their main suspicions, and determine who had better reasons for thinking the way they did versus who had worse reasons for thinking the way they did. This might just be paranoid bedtime thought racing

but I'm starting to get cold mental feet on Tuxedo the more I dwell on this situation

.

can you elaborate on this?

(a) No one's remotely buying into what I've put forth, which suggests pretty strongly it's wrong
(b) Brain is beginning to give credence to the idea that ceejay and enomis were sufficiently close in Tuxedo's mind that he didn't think it worth addressing that ceejay wasn't getting a replacement

[Kilgamayan]

If Tuxedo is town then obviously the case is wrong. <_<

[Kilgamayan]

That would depend on what the team is and what their endgame is, two things I don't know at present. But whatever they may be doing, in any hypothetical where I assume Tuxedo is town, then my case against him is wrong and should be dropped, yes? That's why I'm not understanding the sudden line of question that seems to boil down to "Why is this reason a reason to drop the scum case against Tuxedo? Have you considered what you should do if Tuxedo is town?". Is there something to the confusion I'm missing?

[Kilgamayan]

@N3R: It's not that I'm convinced Tuxedo is town, just that I'm a lot less confident in my case than before, to the point where I think it would be better to look elsewhere. The internal logic was to look at how the day had played out so far and question how likely it was that my case was good and Tuxedo was scum.

* Hoctac has briefly entertained the idea that Tuxedo is sum but did not engage with what I put forth (until I stated that I was getting cold feet about it).
* You disagree with my core premise (947) and have been pretty vocally against my case the whole time.
* PP hasn't engaged with my case, presumably because he hasn't read it.

If Tuxedo were scum, then two of those three reactions are genuine town reactions from people that seem to know what they're doing better than I. That's enough to tell me that the case isn't worth pursuing.

Perhaps Tuxedo actually

is

scum and there will be something more indicative of that later! But at the moment I don't feel good about pursuing what I've been pursuing anymore.

[Kilgamayan]

So you are proposing my attitude should be "this isn't accomplishing anything but I'm going to do it anyway"? That would be a very illogical approach, particularly in LYLO. If what I've done so far isn't accomplishing anything then town is much better served that I look for things I might have missed elsewhere.

[Kilgamayan]

Anyway, here's what I'm now thinking is more likely. Been getting more bad vibes the more I dwell on it.

VOTE: PenguinPower
UNVOTE: PenguinPower

* Didn't like the Koba push late D1 (and said so at the time). Too much of it was focused on things that were NAI and/or derptown, like having mechanics questions and making mechanical mistakes, as well as the whole Bingle confusion thing. I suggest anyone townreading PP for the Koba push go back and actually look at the details of its contents.
* Today's approach to me looks largely the same; NAI playstyle differences (post lengths and overnight writeups) and more derptown stuff (the snap gut reaction to how the claims shook out). I actually think there are reasonable reasons to think the solution could be me and Hoctac, most notably my shift off Hoctac to a lurker near the end of D1, but that point is just sort of shuffled into the background in 939 in favor of other things, some of which are observably inaccurate (the order-of-claims thing, the 926 statement that Hoctac "didn't care about my order" when I had already provided a claim order when Hoctac started actively bugging people for them and thus there was no reason to bug me).

tl;dr the things PP is bringing to bear against people are not actually scummy things, which would explain why PP has avoided explaining why those things are scummy things.

[Kilgamayan]

I think it bears repeating that I myself was starting to doubt my Tuxedo case. It's not like the decision was

only

"oh other people aren't buying it so it must be wrong", that's merely the only part of my 951 that people have focused on today. In that same post, I state that I myself was having doubts about the validity of the case, independent of how others were engaging (or not engaging) with it. The two things together were enough to convince me to look elsewhere. I'm starting to think this got missed.

Also, if Kilga is town, I don't see scum's play here? Like I'm pretty sure going for the quick hammer on me is the best play.

In your hypothetical situation where I am town, do you not think I am a valid scum play mislynch? <_<

[Kilgamayan]

@N3R:

I think it bears repeating that I myself was starting to doubt my Tuxedo case. It's not like the decision was

only

"oh other people aren't buying it so it must be wrong", that's merely the only part of my 951 that people have focused on today. In that same post, I state that I myself was having doubts about the validity of the case, independent of how others were engaging (or not engaging) with it. The two things together were enough to convince me to look elsewhere. I'm starting to think this got missed.

[Kilgamayan]

Like, that gets missed once, then okay, whatever, everyone makes mistakes. But continuing to ignore it while pushing this false idea about why I started changing my mind is not appreciated.

[Kilgamayan]

(The "false idea" being that I changed my mind

solely

because of outside influence)

[Kilgamayan]

So I should have kept the opinion I was starting to doubt on my own, then?

[Kilgamayan]

My best guess at this juncture is PP + Hoctac. See my 962 for my current opinion on PP. I looked through a Hoctac + clidd/PP Day 1 iso yesterday and their interactions were somewhat limited and fairly casual when they happened, and some of PP's stated suspicion of me is based on things Hoctac has done, which I have no control over.

Fake edit: Why are you asking me who I want lynched when I already posted 962? If you're going to gun for me this hard, shouldn't you be reading all of my posts? (RE: Hammer, either of them can hammer the other, but I'd prefer Hoctac hammer PP.)

[Kilgamayan]

Well, odds are good we haven't played with each other at all, unless either of you are an alt/remake of someone that was in one of FakeGod's Touhou UPicks from 2015.

My preferred lynch is PP, which is why my vote/vote was there in 962. I figured this was clear, but possibly not, given what is likely different approaches to the game. My apologies for losing my cool over it.

[Kilgamayan]

*my vote/unvote

[Kilgamayan]

What makes you say PP town, then? Perhaps we can start there.

[Kilgamayan]

Primarily it's that he's held things that aren't NAI again Koba and then myself. Like, nothing he has accused either of us ogf has been scummy behavior as opposed to derptown or simply a different playstyle. I also figured he would have changed tack after Koba flipped town but the approach to me has been largely similar even if the specific details are different.

[Kilgamayan]

*that are NAI

God I can't type this morning.

[Kilgamayan]

Sure, but it might be a bit, since I'm back on the clock. Sorry for the delay.

[Kilgamayan]

Saves me the trouble of asking you, at least!

@N3R: Sorry again for the delay. I'll start putting that list together now.

[Kilgamayan]

@N3R (and I suppose Tuxedo and Hoctac): Okay, here are the listings I promised. (Spoiler tags are for length even though this isn't really too terribly long on the whole)

Spoiler: List of NAI suspicions about/accusations against Koba

Playing the role puzzle/mechanical solving - 609[post], [post]639, 673, 682, 793
Koba being "the leading wagon" and then that wagon vanishing* - 623, 640
Making mechanical errors - 639, 673, 682
Misreading/making factual errors about things that are not current game opinions: the general string of posts from 648 to 656, 684, 793

*An explanation the including of this one:

1) Koba was never "the" leading wagon at a meaningful point in the day, he was only ever "a" leading wagon, and he never went beyond 2 votes.
2) There are only two scum in this game, so scum are not numerically capable of dissolving a wagon on their own unless that scum is voting themselves.
3) PP admits in 673 that this is NAI but he "just find

it interesting", which, c'mon, you're not going to mention it repeatedly if you don't think it shold be used as a point against Koba.

Spoiler: List of NAI/factually incorrect suspicions about/accusations against myself

Prewriting posts overnight: 828, 931 (NAI)
Justifying Hoctac/Kilga scum team feeling by citing Hoctac not tcaring about my lynch order: 926 (factually incorrect)
Justifying Hoctac/Kilga scum team feeling by citing ping from us being the last two claims: 927 (factually incorrect)
Writing long posts in general (NAI): 931

That's a whole lot of bad accusations from where I'm sitting. What

good

arguments would you say PP has made that make you think PP is town, outside of the piggybacking on the efforts of others against me? just now You are welcome to disagree with any of my assessments above and/or cite things you think I missed, whatever works for you.

Also, what is the general ethos at this site about "if I were scum I would do X" statements? At other places I've played repeatedly making statements like these is often a each way to get a lynch in the face, but perhaps things are different here.

(Will address recent Hoctac posts next)

[Kilgamayan]

*each = easy

[Kilgamayan]

outside of the piggybacking on the efforts of others against me

To be clear, this was intended to end in "just now" as a reference to 996. Could've sworn I included that, but apparently not!

@Hoctac: I feel legitimately bad that N3R was willing to engage with me on discussing PP at a time when we were both active and then I ended up not being able to get to their request until just now when they're likely both asleep.

Regarding hammers, in retrospect, I suppose it doesn't actually matter who hammers you in a hypothetical Hoctac lynch, because the only way your hammerer would be relevant is if you are town and lied in your roleclaim. So strike that request, I guess.

As for the hammerer in a hypothetical PP lynch, at the time, I picked you because I felt like PP pointing out bunnying behaviors between the two of us could have been actively planned by the two of you, and so it was just easier to have one of you hammer the other. In thinking about it some more, though, I have realized that that's a bad way of thinking and have changed my mind on that matter; in a hypothetical PP lynch, I would actually prefer Tuxedo Mask be the hammer, because Town Tuxedo hammering Town PP would logically require a Hoctac/N3R scum team, which I see as

extremely

unlikely given how the game has panned out.

[Kilgamayan]

2) There are only two scum in this game, so scum are not numerically capable of dissolving a wagon on their own unless that scum is voting themselves.

i don't understand this, can you explain/rephrase?

It is possible that I am misunderstanding the intended meaning of that point against Koba. I take the idea that someone's wagon quietly dissolving is a sign of their scumminess to mean "scum buddies helped to dissolve the wagon to avoid the scum getting too much attention". Such an explanation doesn't make sense to me in a two-scum-game setting, though, because assuming scum are not self-voting, at most one scum is voting for another scum at any given time, and so there is very little control scum would have over a scum wagon dissolving.

But, like I said, it is possible I am misunderstanding the intended meaning of the original point; if I am, I am willing to reconsider including it in the NAI list.

how is playing mechanics/role puzzle NAI? arguably, you were scumreading me at the beginning of the game for being overly mechanical/talking about the past game as opposed to scumhunting, no? would you say that's also NAI?

The difference (to me) between late D1 Koba and early D1 you was that late D1 Koba has also spent a good deal of time scumhunting whereas early D1 you had not done any that I could see. Once you started doing other things that were more opinion-based/scum hunt-y I was perfectly willing to let it go.

and i mean fair, writing more longer posts is probably NAI, but that's not the only basis (or really the main one) that his argument against you lies, no?

Truth be told, I didn't know for sure what PP's entire argument against me was when I pledged to write you the list you requested. PP's posting style being lots of short posts makes it hard for me to determine full cases from them. (I try to put together longer, more infrequent posts with points organized as best I can because I think it makes my cases clearer.) If an easy summary of it is possible then I'd be glad to re-examine. (Whether that changes my mind or not would depend on the volume and strength of any parts of the case, of course.)

also, in the above spoiler you wrote that he's accusing Koba for misreading/making factual errors (implying that should be NAI) while in the bottom one half of your points are PP making factual errors.

I believe there are different types of misreadings/factual errors, depending on purpose/intent/what-have-you. To me, Koba thinking there are 3 scum or not knowing if bombs can be roleblocked NAI because they aren't being used to push the idea that someone is scum, whereas PP's claims about the priority lists and claim orders aren't NAI because they are being used to support the idea of a Kilga/Hoctac scum team.

Also, what is the general ethos at this site about "if I were scum I would do X" statements? At other places I've played repeatedly making statements like these is often a each way to get a lynch in the face, but perhaps things are different here.

depends from player to player. some see "self meta" as town indicative, some as NAI, some as scum indicative. every once in a while "what would you do as scum here?" is used as a question to sort people. if you've got something good, go ahead.

-D

Nah, I have nothing so important to particular ask/contribute there. It was mostly just double-checking.

[Kilgamayan]

Confirming I'm totally fine with hammering.

FWIW I think Koba's death (assuming they were the NK) is a null tell wrt PP's alignment, I mentioned before that Koba was very clearly town after their hammer vote and enomis's flip and as such would have been worth any scum team's time killing.

[Kilgamayan]

I could see a team that doesn't include PP killing Koba in an attempt to frame PP, since it's not like Koba was a bad kill independent of PP interactions.

[Kilgamayan]

Truth be told, I didn't know for sure what PP's entire argument against me was when I pledged to write you the list you requested. PP's posting style being lots of short posts makes it hard for me to determine full cases from them. (I try to put together longer, more infrequent posts with points organized as best I can because I think it makes my cases clearer.) If an easy summary of it is possible then I'd be glad to re-examine. (Whether that changes my mind or not would depend on the volume and strength of any parts of the case, of course.)

again, why don't you ask?

I will ask PP about the Koba Wagon thing in my next post (don't want it to get lost in this long one), but in this particular instance, I am also interested in what you specifically think PP's case against me is, since the wording of your initial response implied you think I missed something, and I want to know what that thing is.

am i misremembering or did Koba also use some factually incorrect stuff to support scum!PP?

Mmm, in looking back, this did indeed happen, regarding PP's discussion of Bingle in a previous game. In initially thinking about this after finding it I was going to be more lenient with this because I thought I remembered Koba saying English isn't their first language, but now I can't seem to find whether or not Koba said that, so maybe I just imagined it? Does anyone still alive know if English is Koba's first language or not?

---

also i vaguely remember reading someone saying that "it was pretty obvious Koba wouldn't shoot PP" and i'm thinking about that

I remember PP himself said this in 922, but I don't remember anyone else saying it. It's certainly possible someone did, but I don't really have the time/energy right now to go back and look. If checking this becomes a sticking point for someone and no one else does it then I could probably do it tomorrow.

RE Hoctac Suspicion: At present, I am not completely sold on Hoctac being town, but it seems less likely than PP being town. Also worth noting is this excerpt from my 902:

I didn't mention this at the time, but I had also started to doubt my Hoctac vote - even with Hoctac at 3 votes, I felt like I had spent so much of the day trying to sell people on my Hoctac case, but no one was buying it (this is why I posted 528), and only Holden seemed to buy in after the restatement of the case in 567. I recalled at least a couple of people having townreads on Hoctac without engaging with any of the pushing I had done on the case (I have no particular post reference for this atm, but I can try to dig up something for you later if you really want), and it was so incredibly frustrating, but also perhaps indicative of the quality of the case, and between that and the overall collection of Hoctac's responses over the course of the day, I started thinking "...maybe this really is just a stupid wordswordswords D1 case that isn't actually meaningful". The enomis case felt a lot more solid by comparison, since it was based primarily around (a lack of) voting reasons, so I decided to go with what I felt better about.

(As long as this is highlighted, I would like to point out the similarities between the explanation here for my Hoctac unvote and my 951 Tuxedo case update, except there was actually interest in a Hoctac lynch at the time of my mind change there. Kind of surprised no one got all in a tizzy about this explanation given how the reactions to 951 shook out.)

[Kilgamayan]

@PP

: What specifically did you find interesting about Koba's wagon disappearing?

[Kilgamayan]

RE Hoctac Suspicion: At present, I am not completely sold on Hoctac being town, but it seems less likely than PP being town.

*it seems

more

like than PP being town

God how do I do this every damn time

[Kilgamayan]

I would rather not hammer N3R because I feel the best about them of the four remaining not-me players, but if the alternative ends up being No Lynch, I'll certainly do it.

Can someone summarize the case against N3R? I've been feeling pretty good about them for a while.

[Kilgamayan]

Like, to be clear, I am willing to hammer anyone to secure a lynch if that ends up being what people want. But I do still have a voting preference ranking.

[Kilgamayan]

@PP

: What specifically did you find interesting about Koba's wagon disappearing?

No reason for it to disappear completely if he was town.

But that's exactly what happened, so...?

Did Kilga explain somewhere in his wall where his Hoctac scumread went and why that changed?

902, 4th paragraph

[Kilgamayan]

It did. But it still doesn’t make sense, and it definitely didn’t make sense pre-flip.

Sometimes people change their opinions over time, or they see other players that look worse and more worthy of a vote, I guess? This certainly happens to me, but maybe the ethos at this site is different?

Whatever the reason, though, it is bizarre that you would hold this stance and yet spend no time today asking Tuxedo Mask about why he moved off of Koba. If the dissolution of the Koba train still doesn't make sense, why not spend any time interrogating one of the people that was directly responsible for it? Even if you think Tuxedo is town, it seems like it would be worth getting that perspective, to help make some sense of the dissolution if nothing else.

[Kilgamayan]

Whatever. I read it. Lylo is not a really good reason to continue your read? What actually made it change?

I recalled at least a couple of people having townreads on Hoctac without engaging with any of the pushing I had done on the case (I have no particular post reference for this atm, but I can try to dig up something for you later if you really want), and it was so incredibly frustrating, but also perhaps indicative of the quality of the case, and between that and the overall collection of Hoctac's responses over the course of the day,

I started thinking "...maybe this really is just a stupid wordswordswords D1 case that isn't actually meaningful"

. The enomis case felt a lot more solid by comparison, since it was based primarily around (a lack of) voting reasons, so I decided to go with what I felt better about.

Emphasis added for clarity. The tl;dr is (a) people not buying the case (even if they were voting for Hoctac) and (b) Hoctac's responses to my points made me rethink it and realize it wasn't nearly as good as I thought it was.

[Kilgamayan]

I appreciate the forum functionality that warns me that I have ninja'd myself.

@Hoctac: My townread of N3R primarily comes from feeling good about their various questions because I could usually tell where they were coming from and I thought their underlying opinions were at least somewhat clear. I personally prefer proactive to reactive as a playstyle but understand/respect that loads of questioning works better for others as long as the questions go somewhere, and in N3R's case I don't feel like their questioning was particularly empty.

Their vote being on you all the way to deadline does look bad in a vacuum but I went back and double-checked and their last post of D1 (714) came when you were at 3 votes - tied with ceejay for the most at the time - and enomis had none. It's possible they intentionally lurked through the rest of D1 from there, but based on the time stamps I think it's more likely they had both simply gone to bed before things snowballed (see 702).

I have things I think can be said about the rest of what you've listed but that's N3R's job to address. I don't really agree with it as-is, but depending on how N3R defends against it, I could change my mind.

[Kilgamayan]

I'm not seeing scum PP

Individually speaking, I think Penpow is towny for play

If'n y'all are going to say stuff like this then you could at least tell me why 962 and 1003 are off the mark.

[Kilgamayan]

You two have also consistently town read each other with minimal actual interaction.

This is also true of you and the clidd/PP slot fyi

[Kilgamayan]

I'm not seeing scum PP

Individually speaking, I think Penpow is towny for play

If'n y'all are going to say stuff like this then you could at least tell me why 962 and 1003 are off the mark.

Because I don't think clipping those things out of context accurately represents the back and forth Kilga had with Koba. They were things that allegedly stuck out to PP on their read through, and he pushed that. Koba reacted, and the back and forth that followed seemed to be what strengthed PP's read of that slot.

-snip-

As for the things you quoted regarding yourself they said they were pings. If it was the core of their read on you then it would be different, but it's just stuff that stuck out to them. Again this just feels like how PP engages with the game, pushing stuff that gut ping them and growing from there.

I get that they're things that "stuck out" to PP with Koba and myself. My point is that none of them were/are scummy things, but PP was/is presenting them as such anyway. I also still don't know what PP's core argument against me is despite pointing out once already that I didn't know what it was. N3R said something similar to this but didn't elaborate on what they think PP's core argument against me is. What would you say it is? Note that PP was demonstrably unhappy with me before 943; I would like you, or PP, or N3R, to produce the reason for that pre-943 unhappiness that is something I didn't list in 1003.

What does scum PP have to gain joining the game hours before the deadline seeing the wagons are Hoctac and CJ/Enomis and picking a fight with Koba? Trying to fight the flow of the game seems way more town motivated than scum motivated. Even if Hocatac or CJ/Enomis were their partner, it would be easier to just support the opposing wagon over trying to start a whole new one.

Starting a fight with someone that was not in meaningful danger of getting lynched avoids having to come up with a meaningful opinion of which of the two main vote-getters is worse, and in fact can possibly ultimately avoid having to vote for either of them. Like, if scum can get a townie lynched without voting for them, that's pretty good for them, since they don't have to answer for being wrong.

That's a whole lot of bad accusations from where I'm sitting. What good arguments would you say PP has made that make you think PP is town, outside of the piggybacking on the efforts of others against me?

Could you show what you're talking about here?

I'm not sure exactly what the confusion is. If you can clarify that I'll be happy to oblige.

P.S. your post would be easier to follow if you linked to why they were factually incorrect or explained it, rather than just linking to the incorrect post.

Sure.

Justifying Hoctac/Kilga scum team feeling by citing Hoctac not tcaring about my lynch order: 926 (factually incorrect)

Correction: My summary statement here should say "claim order" rather than "lynch order". (926 refers to "claim order" so hopefully it was still clear what I meant.)

Anyway, I posted my preferred claim order in 864, and Hoctac went on to try to administrate/organize claim orders in 874. Hoctac did not ask me for mine because mine was already posted. I mention this in 962 but I suppose it was not as clear and direct as this statement now.

Justifying Hoctac/Kilga scum team feeling by citing ping from us being the last two claims: 927 (factually incorrect)

Hoctac claims in 883, PP claimed in 885, I claimed in 888. Note that I point this out in 938.

[Kilgamayan]

Hey N3R

Truth be told, I didn't know for sure what PP's entire argument against me was when I pledged to write you the list you requested. PP's posting style being lots of short posts makes it hard for me to determine full cases from them. (I try to put together longer, more infrequent posts with points organized as best I can because I think it makes my cases clearer.) If an easy summary of it is possible then I'd be glad to re-examine. (Whether that changes my mind or not would depend on the volume and strength of any parts of the case, of course.)

again, why don't you ask?

I will ask PP about the Koba Wagon thing in my next post (don't want it to get lost in this long one), but in this particular instance, I am also interested in what you specifically think PP's case against me is, since the wording of your initial response implied you think I missed something, and I want to know what that thing is.

[Kilgamayan]

This:

and i mean fair, writing more longer posts is probably NAI,

but that's not the only basis (or really the main one) that his argument against you lies, no?

[Kilgamayan]

To clarify as best I think I can, that statement implies that the stuff I listed in 1003 doesn't mention PP's main point against me. I'm asking what that main point then is.

[Kilgamayan]

He was unhappy with me before 943, though, before all that happened. Why?

[Kilgamayan]

The point is that PP hasn't actually done any valid scumhunting until everyone else did a bunch of work on me and gave him something very safe and easy to jump on. You don't see a problem with this at all?

[Kilgamayan]

kilga you better be a bomb bruh

[Kilgamayan]

I mean, it works either way. I just wanted an excuse to post it before the game ended.

[Kilgamayan]

Let me have this after 9 days of absolute hell.

[Kilgamayan]

Hey, you gotta do what you gotta do! It's ultimately just a game. No hard feelings.

[Kilgamayan]

Out of curiosity, do either of you play 100% Orange Juice? Or did you just Google who Alte was after my claim?

[Kilgamayan]

It's a one-to-four-player anime-style board game you can find on Steam, so if that kind of stuff is your thing, I'd recommend it! Particularly since the base game is only $7 USD or so. (There is a TON of DLC for adding extra characters such as Alte; DLC characters come in pairs and are typically $2 or $3 USD per pair.)

I like it a lot, but play it less these days than I'd like because the AI tends to cheat in single player and multiplayer games tend to take a while to play even if you're actually able to get people together to play it.

[Kilgamayan]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbFdDRwckSQ

Here's Alte's character trailer, which has a minute or so of game play that should be enough for anyone to judge if the game looks fun or not. It even shows Self-Destruct in action!

[Kilgamayan]

The game has gacha elements within it but it purely uses in-game currencies and 95% of it is getting extra costumes/accessories for your characters. No pay-to-win elements that I've experienced, and I've had the game for a couple of years.

[Kilgamayan]

[Kilgamayan]

I'm very sorry Kilga, I look forward to playing with you as town.

We shall see! I play extremely rarely these days (as evidenced by the five-year gap), and I do wonder if my preferred play is at odds with the general site ethos regarding good play, but I will certainly not say never.

[Kilgamayan]

I do when I have the time and at least one or two of my friends that also plays it is also online and willing to play it. It's a bit of a time commitment, though - it's not, say, Twilight Struggle, but I try to budget an hour per match because I've had several run over that - so it doesn't happen as often as I'd like.