Micro 941 | Brass and Shrapnel | Game Over!

[DkKoba]

YEE HAW

[DkKoba]

do we even lynch d1 and let the vigs vs mafia vs bombs figure eachother out or

[DkKoba]

regardless, parking my rvs on lucky number 7 VOTE: hoctac

[DkKoba]

ok reread the setup with more thought. best to consider this a vanilla-ish setup for all intents and purposes with a few bombs xP either we get mass chaos, a buncha duds, or something in between.

[DkKoba]

Making meaningful posts with the V/LA banner up??? LYNCH ALL LIARS VOTE: DkKoba

Dwelled on the merits of massclaiming early when reading over the setup, but I would cast my vote (such as it is) for playing the game 'normally' as long as possible because immediately devolving the game into a role logic puzzle makes it a lot less fun. I feel I am notorious (as much as I haven't played Mafier anywhere in ages and I don't think anyone in this game knows me?) for being total garbo at role theory though so that sentiment may just be me trying to avoid going down a path I know I am much worse at. :v

full setup analysis for dummies incoming if i stop being depressed IRL
v/la is to explain temporary disappearances for mental health reason, I am anticipating needing v/la at any moment + will be less efforting until the weekend, unorthodox I know but I'd rather not disappear and make people wonder where I may be.

[DkKoba]

imo what to do with someone that doesn't want to hammer depends on how they handle the situation. Someone that goes "no I'm townreading them and that's that" and shoves their fingers in their ears can be sent to the guillotine the next day because that reeks of scum wanting to avoid hammering a supersaint. I'd be substantially more willing to give leeway to someone that goes "I'm townreading this person for A B C reasons and I think the case against them doesn't fly for X Y Z reasons" and actually makes an effort to dissuade the lynch onto someone else they find scummier. (Assuming their argumentation isn't all bunk, of course.)

Too much word salad 2/10
VOTE: kilga

[DkKoba]

imo what to do with someone that doesn't want to hammer depends on how they handle the situation. Someone that goes "no I'm townreading them and that's that" and shoves their fingers in their ears can be sent to the guillotine the next day because that reeks of scum wanting to avoid hammering a supersaint. I'd be substantially more willing to give leeway to someone that goes "I'm townreading this person for A B C reasons and I think the case against them doesn't fly for X Y Z reasons" and actually makes an effort to dissuade the lynch onto someone else they find scummier. (Assuming their argumentation isn't all bunk, of course.)

Too much word salad 2/10
VOTE: kilga

pee pee poo poo let me lead

[DkKoba]

Sure we can go with that. More like tl dr materiał that prompted me to vote them

[DkKoba]

what of any current post is AI?

[DkKoba]

whos ready for MS paint setup spec ft my big brain

[DkKoba]

[DkKoba]

lets take a look at probabilities and such firstly: its going to be a lot to take in, so any help with this would be appreciated from anyone talented with math.





we should eliminate the extreme points because frankly ,we dont want to be in a position where there's a unique power role missing (well, other than the blank vigs. they are kinda stupid).

now we are probably never going to find out which setup we are in based on claims ever, since we have no claiming etc. but we can plan based on likely outcomes of setup rolling.


There's not much depth to strategy however I have discovered a couple scenarios that DO help town gain clears and narrow down things via the n1 flips. (I agree with no claims d1 but post d1 we should 100% consider it)
(im actually incredibly tired after getting all this info up but also is of note that we shouldn't even think about scum lynched d1 because d1 scum lynched is stripped of their power to self protect and must RB others, and even NK and hope vigs kill eachother)

my brain hurts but essentially a vig that successfully shoots a supersaint can claim, especially when a bomb dies and no one else does.

[DkKoba]

I hope I left a good amount of info for people to absorb. i need nap now

[DkKoba]

lets take a look at probabilities and such firstly: its going to be a lot to take in, so any help with this would be appreciated from anyone talented with math.

i'm Sometimes Not Shit at math, no promises though. i'm not sure what math has to do with it, past the 25%-50%-25% odds of our setup?

we should eliminate the extreme points because frankly ,we dont want to be in a

position where there's a unique power role missing

(well, other than the blank vigs. they are kinda stupid).

what do you mean by the bolded?

my brain hurts but essentially a vig that successfully shoots a supersaint can claim, especially when a bomb dies and no one else does.

why would this be helpful?

-D

either no bomb or no supersaint

[DkKoba]

i mean its not in particularly helpful but its SOMETHING we can eke out of this hipfire setup.

[DkKoba]

also did a quick reskim of things and almost thought about voting holden but i think im 'holden' back on that one.

my ego says to keep my vote parked.

[DkKoba]

DkKoba, you said you would use MS Paint for your setup spec but then used Excel/Spreadsheets instead? Is there a reason you lied there?

i thought i could mental math it.

[DkKoba]

uhhh if the setup rand doesn't roll each SS/bomb slot individually then my spec is useless but I went under the assumption that it does.

[DkKoba]

so we either have:

only SS
or only bombs?

[DkKoba]

I like slot information and when I see pressure forming on someone it helps advance the game state but you are not a quiet slot so I don't see a particular need to flip my vote at the moment.

[DkKoba]

I MADE A FATAL MISTAKE IN MY GRAPH

[DkKoba]

also uh I don't know if this statistic is incorrect but I found something disconcerting in my probability calculation BUT now im no longer tired and have motivation for more MS paint

[DkKoba]

fixed also added extra stats, the one about essentially 50/50 chance of only having a single type of non vig PR is disconcerting.

[DkKoba]

I'm just going to throw out a few notes on what I think.

1.) no claims d1 because variance in PRs is enough for scum to hide in either pile without really being able to pin it down, however, they cannot both hide in 1 pile without being confirmed to both be in that pile. (at least I think so? I need to go over the possibilities. at least theres certain cases where it would become immediately apparent).
2.) n1 analysis will be important if there are obvious non-scum kills.
3.) idk bomb mechs but we can setup a slot code to make sure vigs don't all target the same person and we don't gain any info from a death. also don't want all vigs to suicide onto a single bomb if thats a thing LOL

[DkKoba]

this is an example situation where vig can self confirm themselves as a real vig, and thus can "claim" a kill for example if they are being lynched. (and this be clear). this is a niche case but its SOMETHING we can utilize if it happens, plus the vig in questiion would know they can aim to kill scum.

[DkKoba]

you are lightning fast!

[DkKoba]

anyways I think holden wifom'd too much so i think i changed my mind about voting them VOTE: holden

[DkKoba]

I'm just going to throw out a few notes on what I think.

1.) no claims d1 because variance in PRs is enough for scum to hide in either pile without really being able to pin it down, however, they cannot both hide in 1 pile without being confirmed to both be in that pile. (at least I think so? I need to go over the possibilities. at least theres certain cases where it would become immediately apparent).
2.) n1 analysis will be important if there are obvious non-scum kills.
3.)

idk bomb mechs but we can setup a slot code to make sure vigs don't all target the same person and we don't gain any info from a death. also don't want all vigs to suicide onto a single bomb if thats a thing LOL

this is an example situation where vig can self confirm themselves as a real vig, and thus can "claim" a kill for example if they are being lynched. (and this be clear). this is a niche case but its SOMETHING we can utilize if it happens, plus the vig in questiion would know they can aim to kill scum.

How does this confirm anything by having them shoot a SS (which we have to know exists) that scum would be forced to shoot or gungho on their lynch to avoid being placed in the hammer spot? How would you coordinate that without the risk of mafia simply expending their rb ability on the claimed vig?

I think the only way to "confirm" a claim like this would be post the vig shot, but nothing stops vigs stacking up on one target unless we come up with a system for it.

Also lol, mafia shooting the bomb

[DkKoba]

I don't think that's important right now.

[DkKoba]

anyways I think

holden wifom'd

too much so i think i changed my mind about voting them VOTE: holden

How so? The mafia pt joke with Tuxedo?

Believe that is four votes on me BTW

i do believe yes that is considered wifom.

[DkKoba]

Are you feeling pressured by all the votes on you, Holden? I could ask people to unvote if that's the case.

my ego is in the on position right now there is no asking me to unvote right now

[DkKoba]

there's no "town allowed wifom". town doesn't need to wifom that they are scum because they are not scum and wouldn't have any wine. do you see where I'mgoing with this?

[DkKoba]

u are quite hung up on that huh.

well maybe u should note that you also fakeclaimed a role(even if it doesn't exist)(which i consider wifom) as well.

and maybe also note i'm not calling for your lynch since you seem to be toeing the line of overreaction but rather see u as a good starting point for beginning the gamesolve.

[DkKoba]

What's your read then also on Tuxedo given his participation with the WIFOM?

I'm confused overall because:
-> You said I "WIFOM'd too much" which means that there is some threshold that a town should be able to WIFOM in your eyes.
-> Then you say that town shouldn't WIFOM at all.
-> into saying to me "Have good faith in me, I am trying to move town out of RVS. You are overracting and hung up on a question."

Do you see why I am curious about my question now?

u are overanalyzing what was essentially a reaction test. its not that deep. learned that u are very defensive however, so noted.

[DkKoba]

Like even if I take that at face value and agree its a reaction test, your refusal to even discuss back with answering the question contradicts it. If it is a reaction test, why aren't you taking me up on the offer to debate the test and gain more information out of the test instead of cutting it off early and telling me to not engage inquisitively back to you?

holy fuck its not that deep you're so goddamn defensive over this. its literally a "maybe could be scum" thing that i saw. if u dont stop nitpicking it i'm gonna pull my ebrake up on my parked vote

[DkKoba]

ok whatever I was going from experience with people daystarting with scumclaims like that being scum more often than not and my origin site's meta actually having people flip scum more often than not when they do fakeclaim scum daystart.

but one thing i hate is when my early pushes get nitpicked because its literally a low information stage and im literally just flinging shit and hoping something sticks so discussion can move forward.

[DkKoba]

UNVOTE:

[DkKoba]

hi clidd im going to hardtunnel you again as you flip PR again

[DkKoba]

also my more hesitant to push people this game bc im not blue so its not as fun. 2/10 too many PRs

[DkKoba]

ok firstly will the ego players in the room please stand up so I can get a good idea where to start my solve without attracting a vig shot cause it would suck to get shot ;(

[DkKoba]

VOTE: hoctac
I just noticed the gimmick account. I will hardtunnel people with dumb gimmicks 9/10 because its not a valid way of covering up town vs scum play

[DkKoba]

VOTE: DKkoba

For a pillow push and changing their warrant once questioned.

nice omgus buddy. mad i called your gimmick out?

[DkKoba]

I dont scumread anyone at this stage of the game. To do so requires a blatent scumslip.

[DkKoba]

ok whatever I was going from experience with people daystarting with scumclaims like that being scum more often than not and my origin site's meta actually having people flip scum more often than not when they do fakeclaim scum daystart.

Ah, if you pointed out it was from a site meta difference I would be more understanding. All you said though was "town never WIFOM" after the first part which wasn't clear that was you citing a site meta difference.

but one thing i hate is when my early pushes get nitpicked because its literally

a low information stage

and im literally just flinging shit and hoping something sticks so discussion can move forward.

I dont have info neither though. I have no issue with reaction tests nor pressuring people (as anyone who knows my meta would call me out hard if I did lol), but it's hard to gauge if a push is coming from scum or town PoV when the person pushing it doesn't answer questions. Especially since my playstyle purposely attracts the RvS switchover to gauge the person who pushes for RVS to end.

Is there any other posts that pings your radar?

One thing you should know is that i skim posts and i didnt see the question nor really read the post in question. The answer off of memory is no.

[DkKoba]

my logic going into d1 in a daystart setup is "who is going to be the most annoying player to deal with later on if they arent pushed to participate early on" when i determine who i want to push. Maybe my philosophy is different than most but i always want as much constructive discussion as possible. Now right now i am in passive mode but if i get angered i do start going off on people i have tonal issues with, etc. But in a vig setup i have to hold offbc i know that one fool who thinks aggression =scum is going to be a cool and good vig

[DkKoba]

i have trouble leading when attention is on me, im camera shy. also i am too biased bc of players i recognize rn so im conf biasing my way into townreads on ppl i recognize and scumleans on those i dont LOL


just spewing my thoughts process rn but I dont feel useful rn this game and its frustrating bc my brain doesnt want to work rn with reading into peoples posts.


i have a feeling its like bc of the unconventional setup with different PRs so theres that.
im going to give a list of reads i guess based on my gut in a bit

[DkKoba]

there we go. i also gave it a dark background to not hurt any eyes

[DkKoba]

wait. pretend clidd is a lime green shruggy

[DkKoba]

there. its clidd

[DkKoba]

theres nothing to ellaborate on.

[DkKoba]

what is the point of that question?

[DkKoba]

@CJ (is that okay?) are you still scum reading Holden? Why/why not? What's your goal with this wagon hoping? Your votes (or unmoved votes) look opportunistic.

I'm holding judgment. There's not enough on Holden to justify a scum read for me atm. My goal is to vote scum. Yeah quite surprising, I know.

But you went out of your way to announce you keeping your RVS vote on them. Were you scum reading them for doing something awkward? And how do you mean there isn't enough on Holden? What do you want from them?

To answer your first question, I wanted to move it from you!

Do you like to move your vote around? Does it help form reads? Or do you mean you're town reading me?

Yes, I think I do like moving my vote around.
You've been asking game progressing questions, so I don't believe you're in need of pressure. ceejay hasn't had an independent thought yet, so I believe he could do with some!

Good luck with that. I hate independent thoughts. I like looking at other people's reads and ideas and support them, or maybe refute them.

Yeah I mostly just sheep.

How do you determine a good candidate to sheep? Is based on their arguments, or having a prior town read on them?

this post makes tuxedo move up into town. not a gut read.

[DkKoba]

there. its clidd

*Trying to understand the reasoning of the drawings*

null town but mostly from paranoia bc of the last game i was in with u

[DkKoba]

theres nothing to ellaborate on.

There is because I have trouble understanding you. Are you saying at this point in the game you're based on people you like to engage with rather than scum equity to see what people do and that certainty in reads like calling someone scum would only be coming from a slot with more info, like scum?

@Dkkoba, is this a correct interpretation of what you meant? If it incentives you to answer, I do have to follow up on questions if the answer is yes. If the answer is no, can you clarify for me?

simplify your question into something more manageable

[DkKoba]

is there an award for a player who consistently has the highest post count in any game they play

[DkKoba]

hmmm
I have a big thonker but im.at work so i can't elaborate but its going to lead to an iso of kilga

[DkKoba]

i get home and theres no content since I posted. you all are cancelled.

[DkKoba]

imo what to do with someone that doesn't want to hammer depends on how they handle the situation. Someone that goes "no I'm townreading them and that's that" and shoves their fingers in their ears can be sent to the guillotine the next day because that reeks of scum wanting to avoid hammering a supersaint. I'd be substantially more willing to give leeway to someone that goes "I'm townreading this person for A B C reasons and I think the case against them doesn't fly for X Y Z reasons" and actually makes an effort to dissuade the lynch onto someone else they find scummier. (Assuming their argumentation isn't all bunk, of course.)

Too much word salad 2/10
VOTE: kilga

omgus

FWIW I tend to post little but word lots when playing in ~~~unfamiliar territory~~~

UNVOTE: DkKoba
VOTE: Night 3 Roses

Posts so far have given me a sense of playing a "safely helpful" game; decent post volume but all of the game content is focused around trying to solve the role puzzle or info dropping (such as details about a previous game that used this setup), which doesn't require any real alignment-related effort. Basically active lurking.

ED1 STRONG!

I could also vote for ceejayvinoya, 69 (nice) doesn't explain why Holden is the most awkward player at that point in the game and it's not really a conclusion I agree with (I would have said Hoctac or maybe Tuxedo Mask instead).

Both of my games here were Town games. This one was played to completion; this one was aborted.

Scum games are a little harder to sensibly and relevantly come by. My most recent scum game is here, which is also from 2015, but the mechanics of that game were a bit wacky. If you want something other than that, there were a couple of Anon games whose accounts have since been repurposed several times, and then a game from 2009.

[DkKoba]

oh ffs i forgot to click preview.

but these 2 posts pinged me bc I feel like scum is more interested in self meta.

theres a couple other things that pinged me too but I will keep that to myself for now since its early. they're the reason for the :S.

I still maintain my vote on hoctac however as I don't think they are towntelling right now.

[DkKoba]

Quick q between work and other stuffs I gotta do

@Tuxedo Mask: Why is your vote presently on ceejay? I don't necessarily object to voting for him, but you put that vote down in 120 and a lot has happened since then. How has your case evolved since then?

the most recent posts are abt u but u dodge and go straight for someone else.........................................

[DkKoba]

i dont check for context when I ISO bc ISO machine go brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

[DkKoba]

N3R is it Ico on right now?

[DkKoba]

wait nvm i see the -D i need to STOP SKIMMING

[DkKoba]

im a chat mafia andy and it shows.

anyways that sorta explains why I gave kilga an :S bc i got them weird vibes from them.

[DkKoba]

no I was just wondering who i was talking to because i read hydra heads invididually from my brief experience with them

[DkKoba]

Quick q between work and other stuffs I gotta do

@Tuxedo Mask: Why is your vote presently on ceejay? I don't necessarily object to voting for him, but you put that vote down in 120 and a lot has happened since then. How has your case evolved since then?

The game may have progressed but CJ has just returned. So I still have questions for them, which has, unfortunately, been slower to get through than I hoped. But their votes staying on Roses also just feels weird, and as I asked them if their playstyle is sheep based, then it's odd they would remain invested in a vote longer than the person they sheeped. Their playstyle also seems easy for scum, so I'm hoping to pin down a more through criteria of why they sheep when they sheep, so I can better read them later.

Aside from CJ I'm just running into the issue I having too many town reads at the moment, and need to do something about that. Aswell the other person I'm questioning Dkkoba has still yet to answer what I've asked of them, despite rephrasing it three times to try and get something from them. I'm starting to get frustrated at this point, and bouncing off this game.

sorry i saw ur reframe earlier and i forgot to reply. looking back now.

[DkKoba]

I dont scumread anyone at this stage of the game. To do so requires a blatent scumslip.

To simplify the questions.
What did you mean here? If the answer is obvious to anyone else, please tell me so I stop making a fool of myself.

How do you determine a good candidate to sheep? Is based on their arguments, or having a prior town read on them?

Arguments mostly, if they make sense to me.

With your vote still on Roses does that mean you're not convinced by their defense, if so why not? What does it mean for your strategy when the person you sheep moves their vote? Are you just waiting for another argument you like?


Sidenote: sorry about that last post, blame my big dumb thumbs and phone posting.

ok I never actually scumread anyone early on. my "scumreads" are always meant to annoy prod and push players to getting emotional. emotion betrays alignment more often than not. is that more clear?

[DkKoba]

ok I never actually scumread anyone early on. my "scumreads" are always meant to annoy prod and push players to getting emotional. emotion betrays alignment more often than not. is that more clear?

Yes, it does, thank you. It also tells me I was way off with what I thought you meant. So I do have follow up questions. The puts lots of things into perspective.

@Dkkoba

Is that an okay to get your attention when skimming?
1: Do you apply similar logic to town reads? Or should those be taken at face value?
2: Do you have a completed scum and town game I can read?

@Holden, Dkkoba is from Town of Salem. Now I don't have much experience there, I do have experience playing forum mafia with people from there. They tend to have a hyper-aggressive and brute force playstyle, to basically beat down the other players into doing what they want. So hopefully that helps with the question you asked Kilga.

I am from epicmafia pls. town of salem is not good as a chat mafia game lol.
and hey, getting people to do what you want helps as both alignments! so its a pretty decent playstyle i'd say.

as for 1, I think town reads are easier to come by early on but yes, I don't locktown anyone early on but I do tend to trust people more early on than others.
2. I have mostly town games and only 1 game as a PR. (seeing as this game is for PRs). the one forum scum game i have is from an unconventional setup. although you have to keep in mind that as a person experienced with open setups, I tend to adjust my play based on setup as either alignment.

[DkKoba]

there we go. i also gave it a dark background to not hurt any eyes

What in your gut's bacteria made you feel good about me?

ur logic is good so far

[DkKoba]

hm

[DkKoba]

im drinking so imma just be like clear,

my pronouns are they/them please use them because i am not a he/him despite my avi being male

[DkKoba]

I will catchup on this tomorrow hopefully.

To address the timing of my push comments: That was just when I decided to have a reread of the thread and picked on the things I mentioned on DkKoba.

you are blatent mafia

[DkKoba]

this is a PR only game, reading the game is 100% about reading for roles. I am experieced in this because my first favorite open setup I played was a special setup on epicmafia. honestly mafia are going to have similar tells to vigs? not sure how to take the analysis on this but people who roll a PR role will typically be scummy in nature. but thats just deep mafia philosophy im getting into.

[DkKoba]

this is a PR only game, reading the game is 100% about reading for roles. I am experieced in this because my first favorite open setup I played was a special setup on epicmafia. honestly mafia are going to have similar tells to vigs? not sure how to take the analysis on this but people who roll a PR role will typically be scummy in nature. but thats just deep mafia philosophy im getting into.

I know, I have a list already forming of who is what from tells.

Tbh the ideal way to approach a game like this in theory, regardless of alignment, is [reducted]

well the issue is im good at faking these tells from said setup you wont know which one I am.

[DkKoba]

stop reading meta. unless someone ahs played this setup multiple times b4 ur not gonna be able to striclty meta read them based on that. people act different based on role rolled

[DkKoba]

no

[DkKoba]

no

Do you feel their reads or scum hunting has been flawed? If so what posts?

Yes, I understand you disagree with their meta based style, however do you believe they have reached incorrect conclusions using it?

i wouldt know yet! but i refuse to read previous games that are not the same setup.

[DkKoba]

;

[DkKoba]

IM DRUNK AND WANNA INTERACT who wanst some

[DkKoba]

@Holden the start of my quote is 227. I didn't miss it, it is there. That was there because it felt like the start of your town read progression. Though thank you for clearing up the comment you made to CJ.

Ah I missed it. Then you misinterpreted. I feel the next post where I express that I saw genuineness in his posts but it came afterwards shows my doubt with the slot at the time.

Hello drunk person. May you tell me the color of your role PM?

Green?

[DkKoba]

ok brown

[DkKoba]

Ask, and you shall receive.

no

Do you feel their reads or scum hunting has been flawed? If so what posts?

Yes, I understand you disagree with their meta based style, however do you believe they have reached incorrect conclusions using it?

i wouldt know yet! but i refuse to read previous games that are not the same setup.

This post really doesn't sit right with me. It feels super disingenuous and misrepresentative. If you refuse to read previous games then don't, I have no clue how that applies to Clidd doing it.

Making this strange accusation, and then not being able to back it up is also weird. If you can't point to one read you disagree with, why would you have a problem with their methods of getting acclimated to the game? Clidd hasn't even pushed anything yet. And yes, I know you can't know for sure if Clidd is right or wrong, but if I saw someone using logic I disagree with to reach a conclusion I disagree with I'd be able to point that out. Your attack of their playstyle feels more like paranoia than anything.

VOTE: Dkkoba

were u just looking for a reaosn to vote me ?or just looking to gamesolve?

[DkKoba]

i think ur full of shit tuxedo

[DkKoba]

i answerd ur dumb questions nerd nerd and ur pivot is not logically consistent. ur tone towards me suggested u thought i was town. so ur sudden pivot is not genuine.

[DkKoba]

because I don't need to vote you to be right

[DkKoba]

ur pivot is fake and if you try to keep it up its probably a scum pivot.

[DkKoba]

no youre not

[DkKoba]

if i am still voted by the time i finish the next 2 drinks the votes going on u

[DkKoba]

your push is still fake.

[DkKoba]

tuxedo is informed and nknows im town. i dont neeed to take their scum questioning seriously

[DkKoba]

i dont care . [vote;; tuxedo[/vote]

[DkKoba]

VOTE: vote[/vote

------------------------------------

VOTE: TuxedoMask

Fixed for vote counter
-GB

[DkKoba]

ok im too drunk but mod should know i wanna vote tuxedo i give up trting

[DkKoba]

there we go. i also gave it a dark background to not hurt any eyes

my gut says no i wasnt

[DkKoba]

i am hungover and not in the mood. but i still maintain drunk me's analysis that tuxedo's push is fake.

[DkKoba]

i will not be participating until i recover more.

[DkKoba]

koba, how much merit do you put into your ~gutreads~?

in chat mafia games they are KING and either hilariously wrong or 100% spot on.

in forum mafia? i have not figured out how to read my gut properly yet

[DkKoba]

tfw im being the least aggressive rn ive been in any game i've completed and im getting told im aggressive now

[DkKoba]

you nitpicked and made assumptions abt me after having a townready tone towards me. I'm not going to tolerate people lying about what I have done so knock it off.

[DkKoba]

i never was trying to police his play. I don't like questions that are dishonest and meant to create logic traps. If a question is pointless I am going to get the reason behind the question before I answer because I want to know the motivation of it so I can then judge the reaction to the answer, or rather just ignore it because its a bad faith question.

[DkKoba]

stop reading meta. unless someone ahs played this setup multiple times b4 ur not gonna be able to striclty meta read them based on that. people act different based on role rolled

This doesn't count as policing play?

Here is what I'm saying, if you think Clidd's methods are flawed I think you should be able to point out those flaws. Is there a conclusion or read they've reached so far using meta that you disagree with? This has nothing to do with weather or not you us meta. If you don't disagree with Clidd and/or your disagreement isn't meta based why does it matter?

I explained in the next sentence what they should be looking for but im not policing them.

regardless what about any of this is scummy to u

[DkKoba]

why is it anti-town.

[DkKoba]

the setup is not a conventional one. I don't see how my point about not being a particularly valuable tool as it would be in a standard open/semi-open setup is invalid.

[DkKoba]

You trying to wriggle out a scumread on me based on that non-logic makes you blatent scum.
thank u, next

[DkKoba]

alright obv scum whatever you say.

[DkKoba]

you thought you did something there its ok

[DkKoba]

Yes

[DkKoba]

AaAAaaAaAaAAAaAa

Tommorow for sure!

what is tomorrow?

[DkKoba]

interact with me coward.

[DkKoba]

Not really, I do spot some people who I feel are trying to scumhunt. But those are not really a town tell for me because scum can fake scumhunting really easily.

no they can't lmfao what is this mafia theory?

[DkKoba]

scumhunting: not a towntell because it's really really easy to fake

saying "i won't be efforting this game": town

ok

-D

sdagdsagadsgasdg had this exact thought

[DkKoba]

im not towny

[DkKoba]

have fun datisi

[DkKoba]

im not towny

*shrug*

If someone says you're towny, you don't get to say no

N o.

[DkKoba]

when 2 drunk people see the obviousness in tuxedo being scum
We love to see it

[DkKoba]

im gay

[DkKoba]

anyone else wanna join the wagon on the obv scum? First to vote is locktown

[DkKoba]

id like to note that tuxedo is frozen rn

[DkKoba]

hoctac how do you feel about tuxedo being obvious scum

[DkKoba]

But seeing that we only have one day left, I am honestly cool with any lynch besides clidd.

Ceejay followed by Dkkoba would be my choice if possible.

why ceejay?

[DkKoba]

3 roses i have 0 interest in lynching bc i don't lynch ppl on d1 who produce the majority of content. Most scum hide in the semi-active pile from my experience.

[DkKoba]

holden who would you lynch rn if u had a gun to ur head?

Also we should be creating a vig list soon.

[DkKoba]

is mafia forced to kill

[DkKoba]

oh i forgot about mafia doc. Mafia is 100% gonna kill then with 2 alive. Ok nvm abt that. (If we lynch scum today we pretty much autowin)

[DkKoba]

How do you read me now, DkKoba?

idk im not trying to split my attention too much but i put u as null. I was just annoyed by the gimmick.

[DkKoba]

anyone there?

[DkKoba]

tuxedo why are you not scum and why should drunk me trust you?

hint: imdrinking tonight and drunk me will talk to u again if u are around.

[DkKoba]

why not hyperlink the posts with [post= ] [/post]?

[DkKoba]

im gay

[DkKoba]

I guess we aren't having a talk 2.0. That's disappointing.

sorry got caught up in a game i am hosting off site. it just started tonight and i needed to rush to get materials setup

[DkKoba]

hello penguin. I townlean ur slot.

[DkKoba]

also if everyone could create a reads list so I can properly create a vig shot list so we don't lose multiple vigs to bombs and don't have any ccs on any non-blank vigs shooting a target

[DkKoba]

Good read so far then. Why?

i am inherently biased towards players I have played with and enjoyed playing with + nothing pinged me so there u go

[DkKoba]

ok I don't know what to make of tuxedo, I kinda was trying to get them emotional but they weren't really biting UNVOTE:

[DkKoba]

Why are we creating a vig shot list?

I did setup spec near the beginning of the game and determined that as an optimal strategy to:

a) prevent multiple suicides on 1 bomb
b) allow vigs to clear themselves if they manage to shoot outside bomb

[DkKoba]

also idk who bingle is, but if they also love setup spec and crafting strategies then I am like them yes.

[DkKoba]

with 3 mafia its going to be hard to hide within one category after n1 shots with the vig list + a massclaim tomorrow with SS/Bombs claiming as " non vig PR". that way we are pretty guaranteed to get either clear vigs(hopefully if they arent in the graveyard from bomb) or ccs.
"

[DkKoba]

Removed ongoing game reference
-GB

[DkKoba]

Talking about ongoing games is no good btw.

oh I reread the rules on ongoing games rules and see that even if I'm in charge of the rules of that game off site its not ok here....
(sorry george)
anyways moving on..

[DkKoba]

Do you buy it, Penpow?

I need to catch up this morning, but I am initially skeptical of someone trying to mechanically solve here.

Optimal strategies are guaranteed to increase town winrate. I am suspicious of those trying to go inoptimal. I.e. in secret hitler, people who try to go against optimal play are typically fasicst read. If yoh think im scum, fine, but im still offering logical setup analysis to help town win the game at the end of the day. Theres a small chance that we could lose on n1 from vigs suiciding onto bomb/s. I'd rather avoid that.

[DkKoba]

Games with lots of guns in play in my experience on epicmafia tend to require less scumhunting and more mechical play than a typcial setup(not to say that scumhunting is abandoned entirely.)

[DkKoba]

I wont be allowing anyone to be "cleared" who isnt actually mechanically clear. Only way for there to be a clear is if mafia doesnt claim a kill or if we have dead scum in the gy

[DkKoba]

question: can bombs be roleblocked?

[DkKoba]

I changed my pfp so u ppl would stop misgendering me but i guess that didn't work!

[DkKoba]

going after the one of the people most invested in the game seems like an easy way for scum to make their game easier sorry not sorry

[DkKoba]

Fucking hell i just lost a long post i made on mobile

[DkKoba]

im stating that your logic for my lynch is flimsy at best.
Penguin care to share why you mentioned a scum strategy while hiding it? Being aware of what scum could be doing is information we can use.

Unless of course it is to your benefit?

And I am a very mechanically intelligent player, I am not going to take jabs at my strategic ability to craft optimal strategies. If we have more than 1 person in gy that wasn't bomb killed then yes it makes sense for that vig to claim who killed the 2nd person and we either gain a clear or a cc. Both which help town.

[DkKoba]

You mentioned a scum strategy from some player don't play dumb. You said you played this setup and received a strategy from your partner.

[DkKoba]

i said i wouldnt ego but clidd isnt here anymore so gloves are off

[DkKoba]

Bingle is a really strong mechanical player who helped me win this setup as scum last time I played.

[DkKoba]

And yet you didnt share why you got "cleared" so we dont end ul doing the same this game. Also i dont see anyone answering my question about bomb mechs

[DkKoba]

Quote the strategy then.

[DkKoba]

not following mechanics is scum agenda.

[DkKoba]

trying to purposefully lower town odds of winning is literally a scum motivated action

[DkKoba]

like telling a doc to fundoc with a confirmed cop.

[DkKoba]

I'm angry rn i will answer when i cool down

[DkKoba]

the constant misgendering isn't helping

[DkKoba]

Sorry - I think I disagree with your interpretation of their play so far. I think scum!Koba trying to push a mechanical solve that is probably more beneficial for scum is not town indicative, especially since they are doing so whilst applying misinterpretations/understandings of the setup. I actually don't see the scum hunting so help me see that.

Their wagon falling apart could be either town or scum indicative, I just find it interesting that it completely dissipated. Something to look at in later phases.

Don't really have any reads on other players, but I find your defense of Dk interesting.

what is my misinterpretation of the setup

[DkKoba]

anyways I'm going to randomize the vig list I want to be followed unless anyone wants to say they're shooting someone specific because regardless of whether or not i get lynched I want it to be clear whos on who so we can have potential clears tomorrow. sorry penguin but ur disdain for attempting to play mechanically and shading me about the mechanics without a logical explaination is not pro-town.

[DkKoba]

No - we're at like 12 hours left with competing wagons on Hoctac and Ceejay, but I prefer Dk, especially for their horrible posting over the past two pages, and others are willing to join if we can get 5.

i get this is kinda hypocritical of me here but how much of the game have you read? (as a genuine question)

pedit: why do you want to alert scum on who's potentially gonna be shooting them?

they can't stop 2 shots at either of them. we get the highest chance of scum getting shot at night and less vigs dying to bombs this way.

if the general consensus is to play suboptimally so be it but I'm offering a way to generate clears(and we can use our brains to actually figure out who would be clear).


It feels like penguin prefers chaos to a plan which in my experience is nearly always a scumtell.

[DkKoba]

#42 What were you hoping to accomplish with it?
#66 and #69 (Nice) are both pretty weak, the joke feels forced as well as the vote, he also ignores the posts Koba is putting out.
#135 What about the interact reads as TVT? How was Holden talk passed, Koba? I feel they were actively trying to engage.
#176 Can you answer this now?
#263What about that makes Hoctac town?
# 472 is referring to the end game of Newbie 1996, and I'd like Holden to elaborate on what he means here. From what I'm reading I disagree with his assessment, as my question was about how it's best for town me to respond to long-form accusations. Which isn't something that has come up this game.
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... start=2300 ( I tried to make this look nice and failed.)
#536 Why are you voting Koba? What has changed to make you okay semi engaging them? Were you hoping for a reaction with a naked vote?

Read list:

Town
HoldenGolden: Has a natural and easy-going way about their posts, that feel good tonally. They're also engaged, asking lots of questions and getting lots of content out there.
Roses: Much the same, but not nearly as active. It's also a bit hard to pin them down to being a hydra, for example they don't seem to agree on a read for DKKoba. What is your read on Koba? It seems town, but your response to #364 seems to be against that.
Hoctac: It also feels natural, and their strange questions and more focus on humor seem to be playstyle indictive rather than anything else. Their recent burst of activity looks good too, though I disagree with their take on Roses.
Clidd: I'd like to see more from them, but what I have I like. They're always a very open player, and I follow the logic that they are laying out. There discussion about Koba with Holden specifically looks very town motivated from both of them.
Kilga: I've not seen anything I dislike from them, but they've been pretty passive. They get a nulltown lean. Who's your top scum read at the moment?
CJ & Enomis: I think there is a good chance of scum here, it would explain the weird purgatory game state. With scum being very passive and under the radar. However, having just completed Newbie 2001 I'm willing to wait on Enomis here. Cj on the other hand has been much active, but not saying anything.
@CJ You say you have sheep playstyle, but there have been multiple pushes from players, what about them hasn't appealed to you? Why would you go for Enomis over anyone else?

I feel like this whole game has just a conga-line of players waiting for other players to respond. Dkkoba retrospective comes next.

Spoiler: Quotes I'm asking about

imo what to do with someone that doesn't want to hammer depends on how they handle the situation. Someone that goes "no I'm townreading them and that's that" and shoves their fingers in their ears can be sent to the guillotine the next day because that reeks of scum wanting to avoid hammering a supersaint. I'd be substantially more willing to give leeway to someone that goes "I'm townreading this person for A B C reasons and I think the case against them doesn't fly for X Y Z reasons" and actually makes an effort to dissuade the lynch onto someone else they find scummier. (Assuming their argumentation isn't all bunk, of course.)

Too much word salad 2/10
VOTE: kilga

I will now forever refer to bombs as the bada bing bada booms

My vote on Holden stays. Most awkward guy so far.

But I am going to have to eventually lynch you for identity theft.

Does it really count as theft if you literally gave them that avatar, though?

---

Heading to bed. DkKoba vs. HoldenGolden reads Town/Town slapfight to me at this juncture. I feel like they may just be talking past each other.

now i'm just confused. was that a tuxedo townread, ceejay scumread, both, or neither?

-D

But what were you going to say before Hoctac answered? When you thought the question was addressed as you.

I'm not sure, I'm still getting my bearings in this game. Some people seem very friendly but I'm not sure if being friendly makes someone town or mafia.

Also, I liked the person who made the first push against Night 3 Roses. For making the push itself; I think it was productive and useful of them!

Hoctac could be townie after all I guess.

How much mafia have you played @hoctac?

Alright disclamer, too much drinking. I've lost track of tjme(I think the sun is coming for me) and fuck if I can read.

So imma just goddam say it and say that tuxedo clothes me and I dont know quite why but he pingles me. Prob paranoids from telling the secrets of how to respond to shit in that newbie. Intuink hisbinteraction with the other dunk badtard showed this because hebfucking did it. He just did it on? It's hard to fucking explain.

Tuxedo is a bad fudge

VOTE: dkkoba

In post 364, DkKoba wrote:
i answerd ur dumb questions nerd nerd and ur pivot is not logically consistent. ur tone towards me suggested u thought i was town. so ur sudden pivot is not genuine.


How to burn thru towncredit in 1 sentence or less, Walter

is your question within this post tuxedo?

[DkKoba]

Hrngh

On one hand, I'm not overly impressed by PenguinPower's stated reasons for the Koba push in 639 and 640. I found myself coming up with counterarguments to most of them in my head as I was reading them. I'm not going to actively defend Koba on most of it - that's their job, not mine - but at the very least, citing setup spec/setup solve attempts as a reason for scumminess while using "in this other game that used the same setup, a town player with strong mechanical abilities botched it and their mistake won the game for scum" looks internally incongruous. Like, I'm not sure how "scum win past game due to townie beefing setup spec" implies "current game player beefing setup spec means player is scum" as opposed to "current game player beefing setup spec means player is probably town and just bad at setup spec". Particularly given the question about roleblocking and bombs, the answer to which has been public information since this game was added to the queue.

OTOH Koba's tack has noticably changed since coming under fire, which is bizarre for someone that comes from a community that tends to favor a bullying playstyle. I feel like they'd be used to irritating pressure by now? I was wondering if the change in tack was because of the misgendering, because I get how that can be very frustrating, but Koba implied it's only part of the reason, so the change in tack is at least partially because of game pressure.

I guess what this means is that I'm no longer willing to vote for the clidd slot currently occupied by PenguinPower, and I am substantially more open to voting for Koba than I was before. I will be interested to see where this goes once Koba has cooled off.

I'm experienced enough not to yell to my grave and to slow down when I'm under pressure.

I do want to have a plan going into n1 that isnt just "shoot my scumread" for vigs.

I was looking for a way to get clear vigs on d2, which should not be "beefed" since there's no way for scum to "Clear" themselves unless town doesn't cc a kill.

[DkKoba]

I do prefer to be on the attack and every second I'm forced to be on the defense is frustrating because I want to Find Scum rather than have to shove off shitpushes.

[DkKoba]

this is an example situation where vig can self confirm themselves as a real vig, and thus can "claim" a kill for example if they are being lynched. (and this be clear). this is a niche case but its SOMETHING we can utilize if it happens, plus the vig in questiion would know they can aim to kill scum.

regardless of whatever we do this is important and should be saved for d2. this is the only indisputable thing we can use for mechanical clearing.

[DkKoba]

Vig kill another vig/SS

mafia kills someone else.

thats it.

either you get a cc or a clear.

[DkKoba]

you don't get a cc.

-D

you get a cc if all kills are claimed. one of those kills are scum. do you see where I'm going with that?

[DkKoba]

wait.

yeah.

no. I just thought of a scenario where that isn't so.

i don't like this setup anymore because spec is useless lmao.

[DkKoba]

i unvoted tux iirc.

[DkKoba]

also tux im in the middle of answering your questions, was just coming back to see the rest of them and saw stuff I wanted to respond to.

[DkKoba]

ok so..... if a SINGLE person claims on a non-bomb kill and ta bomb dies thats the only way we have a clear. still niche but now we know thats the only situation.

no one else is cleared otherwise. that is the only way to have a clear, is a supersaint and a bomb in GY and only 1 vig claims the kill.

[DkKoba]

#42 What were you hoping to accomplish with it?
#98 Pings me, Koba hasn't even given Kilga time to respond to their vote on them. Instead, jumping onto Holden wagon, even though the reason applies more to Roses and me. What changed between post 73 and 98?
#303 What are the other things that pinged you about Kilga?

Here

@Dkkoba

I've made what I was asking more clear.

\
42: rereading i have no idea what i was doing there. I saw lots of big words and said nope tl;dr. but at the moment i was thinking like "ok obfuscating language i dont like this let me get some emtional language out of this person"

98: I feel I explained this move earlier, but probably I should come clean 100% even tho it hurts my pride, but there was 1 player I played against a few months ago that used a bunch of wifom like that in an offsite game and I didn't even read into it and I ended up townreading them and nearly losing the game (someone else carried). so I sorta naturally scumread it right away and it pings me. (it was a resistance game, not mafia but the basis still is there)

303: I don't remember so I probably was just trying to bluff my way into pressure on them. but their carefree tone suggests town after I just ISO'd them so I feel I can trust them for now.

[DkKoba]

i know its probably stupid but I wanna tr 3 roses for pointing out hte logical flaw in my spec because I honestly didn't think of what they said but im also disappointed because I thought i had figured out something cool strategywise.

[DkKoba]

I don't think hoctac omgus'd me. It was my reaction to believe that right then but I buy that they were already planning the vote considering the close proximity.

[DkKoba]

I found it weird that 3 roses corroborated it.

[DkKoba]

if I end up getting lynched I want penguin to hammer btw. put your money where your mouth is.

[DkKoba]

if I end up getting lynched I want penguin to hammer btw. put your money where your mouth is.

As I previously stated, I'm not following anything your putting down.

penguin acting like a child with their fingers in their ears "LALALLA CANT HEAR YOU"

this is not conducive to solving and refusing to interact with me is not a good look for you.

[DkKoba]

#42 What were you hoping to accomplish with it?
#98 Pings me, Koba hasn't even given Kilga time to respond to their vote on them. Instead, jumping onto Holden wagon, even though the reason applies more to Roses and me. What changed between post 73 and 98?
#303 What are the other things that pinged you about Kilga?

Here

@Dkkoba

I've made what I was asking more clear.

\
42: rereading i have no idea what i was doing there. I saw lots of big words and said nope tl;dr. but at the moment i was thinking like "ok obfuscating language i dont like this let me get some emtional language out of this person"

98: I feel I explained this move earlier, but probably I should come clean 100% even tho it hurts my pride, but there was 1 player I played against a few months ago that used a bunch of wifom like that in an offsite game and I didn't even read into it and I ended up townreading them and nearly losing the game (someone else carried). so I sorta naturally scumread it right away and it pings me. (it was a resistance game, not mafia but the basis still is there)

303: I don't remember so I probably was just trying to bluff my way into pressure on them. but their carefree tone suggests town after I just ISO'd them so I feel I can trust them for now.

This honesty feels very town, not a forced answer that feels in line with Dkkoba's play.

p-edit: I think Hoctac and Koba are town, so if we're just waiting on a replacement for CJ then VOTE: Enomis

whats the case on enomis?

[DkKoba]

idk if im sold but enomis could just be slanking.

[DkKoba]

excuses.

[DkKoba]

regardless I only see about 3-4 people at this table that would vote me at this current game state so good luck with that!

you're making an easy excuse to go low effort on trying to gamesolve and pretty much do nothing.

[DkKoba]

everyone who has voted me thus far I have seen good progression on their vote towards me. you? on the other hand? I see a dishonest push. There's a stark difference between how you are pushing me vs how tuxedo/hoctac/etc have tried to push me.

[DkKoba]

"i would do x as scum" is mostly worthless to me because usually its not the case with experienced players.

[DkKoba]

but hey! you engaged with something substantial to something I said! congratulations!!

[DkKoba]

dunno what your problem is with me tho because I've never interacted with you but shading my "logic process" like that feels quite personal and I'm not gonna have it. You're trying to undermine me for whatever reason and I don't like it. using roundabout ways to call me "very stupid" is just out of line.

[DkKoba]

you gonna drop the toxic attitude?

[DkKoba]

alright have fun with that.

[DkKoba]

Your logic has been incorrect and you’ve incorrectly interpreted posts so how else am I supposed to say it?

Grow some skin.

the intelligent, mature thing to do would be to actually explain said logic, such as 3 roses did.

the childish option is to just yell and pout.

you chose option 2.

you're not making this game fun when you choose option 2.

I don't see you being a pure bastion of logic and reasoning. The less you're willing to engage as an adult with me the more I am liable to think you are just trying to pull off a lynch and then pin it as "they were scummy".

[DkKoba]

Why not vote for one of them, then?

Want Hoctac to come back first

I'll ask what I asked of enomis of you as well, then. Can you give an example of how you would vote given Hoctac does a certain thing? Something like "If Hoctac's response does A B C I would then vote X Y Z".

I guess if Hoctac is towny, Vote enomis and if Hoctac is scummy, vote Hoctac.

I went and read ceejay's ISO and this is probably the only post that jumped out on me. It pings me and is weird.

[DkKoba]

But otherwise I don't see a push on them.

[DkKoba]

You’re right. I mostly play by gut and tone.

I understand that. I do too, but it's only effective as an ~~initial~~ push, and forcing it through doesn't help. You have to back it up with proof afterwards.

[DkKoba]

Giving a substantial read on anyone except me would be a good start

[DkKoba]

you're an ass

[DkKoba]

I actually went and checked this thread: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=81863 where is the strategy utilized? which day? I was going to go to the scum PT and see but it seems to be conveniently missing from here.

[DkKoba]

because you were scum and bingle was your partner. you said bingle helped you be "cleared" so naturally it'd be in the scum PT, no?

[DkKoba]

I see datisi was in that game as well so perhaps 3 roses can explain if you refuse to.

[DkKoba]

Ok I see. I made a mistake. I notoriously skim posts.

[DkKoba]

Well when you said "helped me win as scum" I had it in my head that he was scum with you as a natural assumption, so my brain kept that assumption.

[DkKoba]

I tried to find it but i couldnt but it seems to have something to do with role pools and I had already ruled that out early on due to no confirmed information available about role pools.

[DkKoba]

ok we're way off topic considering deadline soon, but I'm glad you somewhat engaged with me penguin even if you have mostly been engaging in bad faith.

I'm considering hopping onto ceejay. I don't know. that one post that jumped out just. idk. it doesn't sit right with me??? and I don't see anyone else I'd lynch here atm.

[DkKoba]

VOTE: ceejay[/unvote] I will unvote to hammer if asked by people on the wagon. I have no fear, and I know the uncertainties are warranted on my slot as I have had an awkward start.