Micro 941 | Brass and Shrapnel | Game Over!

[Tuxedo Mask]

VOTE: Holden The donkey knows what they did.

[Tuxedo Mask]

last time i played this, we played it "normally", except there's no roleclaiming before a hammer (or ever before a massclaim), and we generally made the second scummiest person hammer

-D

How do you even make the second scummiest person hammer?

err, something something Town consensus, "hammer or you'll be the lynch tomorrow". if memory serves, one person ended up not wanting to hammer because "no i townread them i'm not gonna hammer", we lynched them the next day, and they were scum, so it kinda worked?

-D

If they get lynched tomorrow, what do you about the lynch on that day? Do you ask the next scummiest person (not on the wagon) or do you just not lynch? Wouldn't it be better just to pivot to the person who refuses immediately?

[Tuxedo Mask]

Hoctac, no reason, but this should be your new avatar.

[Tuxedo Mask]

i may or may not have bullied george into changing his avatar back.

sorry holden.

-D

How could you, coward. I loved that monstrosity.

[Tuxedo Mask]

How do I look?? Be honest.

Beautiful.

Hardclaiming insane novice macho cop/doc watcher btw

I CC, let's lynch this scum.

[Tuxedo Mask]

I'm very confused. It seems we have a claim and a counterclaim already? I think that means one of them is lying and we should lynch one.

Vote the admitted liar, I, on the other hand, would never admit to something as incriminating as pretending to be a PR not in the setup.

I want you to vote Holden if that wasn't clear.

[Tuxedo Mask]

Hoctac vote Tuxedo

Compromise, we both vote Hoctac.

VOTE: Hoctac

[Tuxedo Mask]

Hoctac vote Tuxedo

Compromise, we both vote Hoctac.

VOTE: Hoctac

Still not accepting your lying ways.

Who's your scum buddy Tuxedo?

You Holden! Remember, you said 'we'll stage a joke fight right at the start to distance.' I'm so confused now.

imo what to do with someone that doesn't want to hammer depends on how they handle the situation. Someone that goes "no I'm townreading them and that's that" and shoves their fingers in their ears can be sent to the guillotine the next day because that reeks of scum wanting to avoid hammering a supersaint. I'd be substantially more willing to give leeway to someone that goes "I'm townreading this person for A B C reasons and I think the case against them doesn't fly for X Y Z reasons" and actually makes an effort to dissuade the lynch onto someone else they find scummier. (Assuming their argumentation isn't all bunk, of course.)

Too much word salad 2/10
VOTE: kilga

pee pee poo poo let me lead

Is it just that he took too long to say what he meant? Because it feels like a natural evolution of the discussion we were having.

[Tuxedo Mask]

Sure we can go with that. More like tl dr materiał that prompted me to vote them

I'm sorry, I don't know what you mean. What about that is alignment indicative?

[Tuxedo Mask]

what of any current post is AI?

I thought you were saying something about the word salad was alignment indicative because you voted them. It now occurs to me you may have been joking.

[Tuxedo Mask]

You Holden! Remember, you said 'we'll stage a joke fight right at the start to distance.' I'm so confused now.

Its rhetorical. You clearly arent reading the our PT then since I want to buddy Hoctac. Bad scum buddy!

Ooooooooo
VOTE: HoldenGolden

[Tuxedo Mask]

My vote on Holden stays. Most awkward guy so far.

Talk about awkward.

VOTE: ceejayvinoya

@DKKoba, I don't really get what you're saying about Holden? Do jokes count as WIFOM? and why am I not in the same level of consideration? Heck, I was the one who brought up the two of us being scum together.

As for the PR talk, I'm going to sit out. I took a semester of clowning at community college, all this math is way above my head. I'll just go with whatever the town consensus is.

P-edit: You and I can RVS as long as you like, but if you change your avatar you're dead to me.

[Tuxedo Mask]

P-edit: You and I can RVS as long as you like, but if you change your avatar you're dead to me.

I'm keeping this one until anyone proposes another avatar to me in any of my games :p

[Tuxedo Mask]

Like even if I take that at face value and agree its a reaction test, your refusal to even discuss back with answering the question contradicts it. If it is a reaction test, why aren't you taking me up on the offer to debate the test and gain more information out of the test instead of cutting it off early and telling me to not engage inquisitively back to you?

holy fuck its not that deep you're so goddamn defensive over this. its literally a "maybe could be scum" thing that i saw. if u dont stop nitpicking it i'm gonna pull my ebrake up on my parked vote

What? Can you slow down for a second?

What was your goal with this?

anyways I think holden wifom'd too much so i think i changed my mind about voting them VOTE: holden

What reaction is a town reaction? Would expect Holden not to question it?

[Tuxedo Mask]

It's my foot.

Your foot is in a hand shaped glove?

Stop making fun out of the shape of my foot D:

I don't think your foot hand is hideous Hoctac. But I am going to have to eventually lynch you for identity theft.

What do you think about Dkkoba and Holden?

[Tuxedo Mask]

Thanks!

VOTE: ceejay

What's your thought behind this vote?

@CJ (is that okay?) are you still scum reading Holden? Why/why not? What's your goal with this wagon hoping? Your votes (or unmoved votes) look opportunistic.

Also, Clidd has yet to make an appearance, is that normal for them?

And where has Enomis gone?

[Tuxedo Mask]

Not it was for Hoctac, who I quoted. If you got thoughts to share feel free, I guess.

[Tuxedo Mask]

To answer your first question, I wanted to move it from you!

Do you like to move your vote around? Does it help form reads? Or do you mean you're town reading me?

@Roses, okay you can take a crack at answering now.

[Tuxedo Mask]

now i'm just confused. was that a tuxedo townread, ceejay scumread, both, or neither?

-D

But what were you going to say before Hoctac answered? When you thought the question was addressed as you.

[Tuxedo Mask]

I dont scumread anyone at this stage of the game. To do so requires a blatent scumslip.

I think I understand and I think I agree. But could you elaborate on this?

[Tuxedo Mask]

I dont scumread anyone at this stage of the game. To do so requires a blatent scumslip.

I think I understand and I think I agree. But could you elaborate on this?

Dkkoba, can you answer this?

I have thoughts on your slot, but I'd like you to answer this first.

[Tuxedo Mask]

I dont scumread anyone at this stage of the game. To do so requires a blatent scumslip.

I think I understand and I think I agree. But could you elaborate on this?

Dkkoba, can you answer this?

I have thoughts on your slot, but I'd like you to answer this first.

Please.

[Tuxedo Mask]

theres nothing to ellaborate on.

There is because I have trouble understanding you. Are you saying at this point in the game you're based on people you like to engage with rather than scum equity to see what people do and that certainty in reads like calling someone scum would only be coming from a slot with more info, like scum?

[Tuxedo Mask]

what is the point of that question?

I'm having trouble following your trains of thought, so I'm trying to determine if it's communication based, playstyle based, or something else.

[Tuxedo Mask]

@CJ (is that okay?) are you still scum reading Holden? Why/why not? What's your goal with this wagon hoping? Your votes (or unmoved votes) look opportunistic.

I'm holding judgment. There's not enough on Holden to justify a scum read for me atm. My goal is to vote scum. Yeah quite surprising, I know.

But you went out of your way to announce you keeping your RVS vote on them. Were you scum reading them for doing something awkward? And how do you mean there isn't enough on Holden? What do you want from them?

To answer your first question, I wanted to move it from you!

Do you like to move your vote around? Does it help form reads? Or do you mean you're town reading me?

Yes, I think I do like moving my vote around.
You've been asking game progressing questions, so I don't believe you're in need of pressure. ceejay hasn't had an independent thought yet, so I believe he could do with some!

Good luck with that. I hate independent thoughts. I like looking at other people's reads and ideas and support them, or maybe refute them.

Yeah I mostly just sheep.

How do you determine a good candidate to sheep? Is based on their arguments, or having a prior town read on them?

[Tuxedo Mask]

theres nothing to ellaborate on.

There is because I have trouble understanding you. Are you saying at this point in the game you're based on people you like to engage with rather than scum equity to see what people do and that certainty in reads like calling someone scum would only be coming from a slot with more info, like scum?

@Dkkoba, is this a correct interpretation of what you meant? If it incentives you to answer, I do have to follow up on questions if the answer is yes. If the answer is no, can you clarify for me?

[Tuxedo Mask]

post 279, ceejayvinoya"]

How do you determine a good candidate to sheep? Is based on their arguments, or having a prior town read on them?

Arguments mostly, if they make sense to me.[/quote]

[Tuxedo Mask]

I dont scumread anyone at this stage of the game. To do so requires a blatent scumslip.

To simplify the questions.
What did you mean here? If the answer is obvious to anyone else, please tell me so I stop making a fool of myself.

How do you determine a good candidate to sheep? Is based on their arguments, or having a prior town read on them?

Arguments mostly, if they make sense to me.

With your vote still on Roses does that mean you're not convinced by their defense, if so why not? What does it mean for your strategy when the person you sheep moves their vote? Are you just waiting for another argument you like?


Sidenote: sorry about that last post, blame my big dumb thumbs and phone posting.

[Tuxedo Mask]

Quick q between work and other stuffs I gotta do

@Tuxedo Mask: Why is your vote presently on ceejay? I don't necessarily object to voting for him, but you put that vote down in 120 and a lot has happened since then. How has your case evolved since then?

The game may have progressed but CJ has just returned. So I still have questions for them, which has, unfortunately, been slower to get through than I hoped. But their votes staying on Roses also just feels weird, and as I asked them if their playstyle is sheep based, then it's odd they would remain invested in a vote longer than the person they sheeped. Their playstyle also seems easy for scum, so I'm hoping to pin down a more through criteria of why they sheep when they sheep, so I can better read them later.

Aside from CJ I'm just running into the issue I having too many town reads at the moment, and need to do something about that. Aswell the other person I'm questioning Dkkoba has still yet to answer what I've asked of them, despite rephrasing it three times to try and get something from them. I'm starting to get frustrated at this point, and bouncing off this game.

[Tuxedo Mask]

ok I never actually scumread anyone early on. my "scumreads" are always meant to annoy prod and push players to getting emotional. emotion betrays alignment more often than not. is that more clear?

Yes, it does, thank you. It also tells me I was way off with what I thought you meant. So I do have follow up questions. The puts lots of things into perspective.

@Dkkoba

Is that an okay to get your attention when skimming?
1: Do you apply similar logic to town reads? Or should those be taken at face value?
2: Do you have a completed scum and town game I can read?

@Holden, Dkkoba is from Town of Salem. Now I don't have much experience there, I do have experience playing forum mafia with people from there. They tend to have a hyper-aggressive and brute force playstyle, to basically beat down the other players into doing what they want. So hopefully that helps with the question you asked Kilga.

[Tuxedo Mask]

stop reading meta. unless someone ahs played this setup multiple times b4 ur not gonna be able to striclty meta read them based on that. people act different based on role rolled

Let Clidd play the way that works for them. Also I don't think they ever implied 'to strictly meta read' their read of CJ is a good example.

[Tuxedo Mask]

no

Do you feel their reads or scum hunting has been flawed? If so what posts?

Yes, I understand you disagree with their meta based style, however do you believe they have reached incorrect conclusions using it?

[Tuxedo Mask]

Also, @Holden what's your read of Dkkoba? I thought I was following it, but your last couple posts make me feel the conclusion I reached was incorrect.

And sorry about the Town of Salem versus epic Mafia, don't know how I screwed it up. @Holden I agree the chat to forum Mafia doesn't seem to have many transferable skills, and I completely forgot you mentioned past experience. However, I still maintain that many chat Mafia players play the way Dkkoba does in Forum Mafia. I don't think your assumption that they should change their playstyle really matters.

[Tuxedo Mask]

Spoiler: Posts I read as Holden Town Reading Dkkoba

immediately after DkKoba voted for them. I'm not going to defend DkKoba at length, that's for them to do, but I will say that I thought it was obvious why they dropped their spat with Holden, and Holden didn't seem to hold(en) it against them (see 140).

I can agree on why they dropped it, but what do you think of the tonal aspects of how he dropped his push on me? I have a conflicted read on Phoenix Human Rights hence my change in approach in the latter half of 140.

Also ironically the "Holden" part of the name is a pun reference. Sadly it's a Poker one though.

@N3R (can I call you this?): Flat-out lurking is certainly physically easier, but I think it's also much more likely to get noticed and called out, which is why I personally prioritize looking for minimal effort ahead of no effort.

@Holden: I think DkKoba's frustration reads as genuine. I used to be the same way philosophically about ED1 scumclaiming, and I know people that still are, so I can sympathize with the throwing up of the e-hands at the realization that no one else in the game was buying what they were selling when they thought they had something substantial.

There is a sense of genuineness coming from him, but that came afterwards where he admitted to doing soft pushes that were worth nothing.

As someone who used to be that way, did you escalate that quickly to assumptions like over defensiveness in who responded to your pushes? That's my main gripe with his posts is I feel the quickness of his escalation of frustration is off along with the AI charged language.

my logic going into d1 in a daystart setup is "who is going to be the most annoying player to deal with later on if they arent pushed to participate early on" when i determine who i want to push. Maybe my philosophy is different than most but i always want as much constructive discussion as possible. Now right now i am in passive mode but if i get angered i do start going off on people i have tonal issues with, etc. But in a vig setup i have to hold offbc i know that one fool who thinks aggression =scum is going to be a cool and good vig

I've never understood why people equate any form of aggression with being scum as it is quite the useful tool for townies depending on who they want to pressure.

There is a difference between town vs scum aggression though.

Datisi, is there a reason you unvote before placing your vote on ceejay? If the reason is to show us you were voting for someone prior, I do not understand the logic as you did not include the person's name with the unvote. Strange.

my previous post was talking about RVS votes, in which i said my vote was one of them, and it got clidd to respond to me with a Sherlock gif? s'there a point to this?

-D

Ah, I did not realise clidd had responded with a Sherlock gif. Is there a reason you unvote before voting in the same post?

because i said "

it

has served its purpose now" referring to my current vote? if you're expecting a profound thought behind it, i'm gonna have to disappoint you.

~

Man, my mind short-circuited for a moment there because I completely forgot that Holmes and Moriarty are actual characters that have appeared in many different mediums and not just a hot dude and a foxy grandpa from everyone's favorite cell phone game.

from the what

@Night 3 Roses: I think the post volume difference does matter in that a higher post volume comes across as an active attempt to look good whereas the lower post volume does not. To be sure, not contributing is generally a scummy thing, but I am more wary of someone that's actively trying to look good without actually contributing than someone's that not trying to look good while also not actually contributing.

I will admit I assumed you (or your slot, or whatever term is appropriate) didn't like ceejay or myself not because of any scumhunting justification, but simply because we're voting for you. Aside from Hoctac being unhappy with ceejay for not being original, no one else has seemed to have a problem with the nature of the pressure being applied to you, so I figured it was a safe assumption. I've seen so many players over the years do it, so.

you're assuming i'm trying to look good. i'm well aware of what "active lurking" is. i was posting because i felt like posting, and at the time what i felt like "actually contributing" either a thing that could've been ai was already dismissed as non-ai, or my question got ignored.

i can tell (or at least i like to believe i can...) the difference between good votes and bad votes on my slot, simply disliking/scumreading someone because they dare vote against me would be silly. i think your arguments are bad but they seem to be genuine. (un)fortunately ico is currently having some sorta holiday so i can't exactly bug him right now to ask what he thinks.

(particularly since my question about your potential alt-account-ness wasn't addressed)

are you saying it wasn't addressed by hoctac or did you miss the second part of 165?

-D

I like the

"your reasons for suspecting me look bad, but I think you're town"

mentality. It's the kind of thing that I find myself applying in every game as town.

I feel that a scum mentality is more inclined to apply omgus in this situation on the pretext that the accuser is acting in bad faith

.

Where is your town lean on Phoneix Human Rights coming from? Although it requires flipping the roles accuser and defendent, he expressed among his posts I was acting in bad faith to why he asked. Is the logic invaildied when reversed in your PoV?

Was the eariler remark about him toning down his aggression to avoid being NK by scum a reference to a previous game?

So these posts all felt like you had a gut town read of Dkkoba, and were then branching from there to question all the other players based around Dokkoba/your read.

Then this post in response to CJ.

I'm willing to excuse it primarily since 3 players have expressed interest in the claim joke (which means at least one townie is among you three), but I can only understand your point if o had claimed something within the scope of the game.

It sort of out of nowhere implies you've been scum reading every one that complained about you jokingly claiming.

It's less that they should change their playstyles and that the differences between the two will give raise to a more nuanced playstyle independent from the previous experiences if that makes sense

I'm not sure I follow. This still feels like you're equating something that would be good to happen with something that WILL happen. Sorry.

[Tuxedo Mask]

@Holden the start of my quote is 227. I didn't miss it, it is there. That was there because it felt like the start of your town read progression. Though thank you for clearing up the comment you made to CJ.

[Tuxedo Mask]

Ask, and you shall receive.

no

Do you feel their reads or scum hunting has been flawed? If so what posts?

Yes, I understand you disagree with their meta based style, however do you believe they have reached incorrect conclusions using it?

i wouldt know yet! but i refuse to read previous games that are not the same setup.

This post really doesn't sit right with me. It feels super disingenuous and misrepresentative. If you refuse to read previous games then don't, I have no clue how that applies to Clidd doing it.

Making this strange accusation, and then not being able to back it up is also weird. If you can't point to one read you disagree with, why would you have a problem with their methods of getting acclimated to the game? Clidd hasn't even pushed anything yet. And yes, I know you can't know for sure if Clidd is right or wrong, but if I saw someone using logic I disagree with to reach a conclusion I disagree with I'd be able to point that out. Your attack of their playstyle feels more like paranoia than anything.

VOTE: Dkkoba

[Tuxedo Mask]

Ask, and you shall receive.

no

Do you feel their reads or scum hunting has been flawed? If so what posts?

Yes, I understand you disagree with their meta based style, however do you believe they have reached incorrect conclusions using it?

i wouldt know yet! but i refuse to read previous games that are not the same setup.

This post really doesn't sit right with me. It feels super disingenuous and misrepresentative. If you refuse to read previous games then don't, I have no clue how that applies to Clidd doing it.

Making this strange accusation, and then not being able to back it up is also weird. If you can't point to one read you disagree with, why would you have a problem with their methods of getting acclimated to the game? Clidd hasn't even pushed anything yet. And yes, I know you can't know for sure if Clidd is right or wrong, but if I saw someone using logic I disagree with to reach a conclusion I disagree with I'd be able to point that out. Your attack of their playstyle feels more like paranoia than anything.

VOTE: Dkkoba

were u just looking for a reaosn to vote me ?or just looking to gamesolve?

No, I've been trying to sort you all game. At first, I felt your push on Holden was Town. Mostly due to how unselfconscious it was. I don't think scum would have doubled down on that push for as long as you did. Then your back off read as genuine. After that the rest of your posts kept coming, and I realized it was just your playstyle and NAI at all. The difficulty to get you to answer a question was NAI as well, so I had to keep pushing and even giving you the benefit of the doubt. However, I don't see the town mindset for wanting an experienced and skilled player to toss their playstyle away. And your inability to back up that statement without deflecting sealed the vote.

[Tuxedo Mask]

i answerd ur dumb questions nerd nerd and ur pivot is not logically consistent. ur tone towards me suggested u thought i was town. so ur sudden pivot is not genuine.

Let's keep it civil.

I know you answered my dumb questions, that's why I voted you. I disliked the answer. You still don't have anything to point to that shows Clidd's methods are wrong. What posts do you believe make me voting you now disingenuous?

[Tuxedo Mask]

Also, if you really think I'm so full of shit, why aren't you voting me?

[Tuxedo Mask]

because I don't need to vote you to be right

Like, I guess you're right? You're still not refuting any of my greater points. I feel like you're just testing how serious I am.

I am serious, I'm still waiting for you to show hypocrisy in my train of thought, and to show a substantive reason to change their entire playstyle on your account. As you're not, and not even engaging with that point, I am scum reading you.

[Tuxedo Mask]

This has been a rather poor interaction. I'm going to chalk it up to you being drunk/testing me. Tomorrow you can address my points, or push your read on me. Until then, enjoy yourself and have a goodnight.

[Tuxedo Mask]

Spoiler:

@CJ (is that okay?) are you still scum reading Holden? Why/why not? What's your goal with this wagon hoping? Your votes (or unmoved votes) look opportunistic.

I'm holding judgment. There's not enough on Holden to justify a scum read for me atm. My goal is to vote scum. Yeah quite surprising, I know.

But you went out of your way to announce you keeping your RVS vote on them. Were you scum reading them for doing something awkward? And how do you mean there isn't enough on Holden? What do you want from them?

To answer your first question, I wanted to move it from you!

Do you like to move your vote around? Does it help form reads? Or do you mean you're town reading me?

Yes, I think I do like moving my vote around.
You've been asking game progressing questions, so I don't believe you're in need of pressure. ceejay hasn't had an independent thought yet, so I believe he could do with some!

Good luck with that. I hate independent thoughts. I like looking at other people's reads and ideas and support them, or maybe refute them.

Yeah I mostly just sheep.

How do you determine a good candidate to sheep? Is based on their arguments, or having a prior town read on them?

this post makes tuxedo move up into town. not a gut read.

You posted this right after.

[Tuxedo Mask]

After reading off page 12 I like n3 roses posts more than earlier. I liked their defense towards kilgamayan.

UNVOTE:

Kilhamayan had already unvoted by the time you last jumped in here. Why did you not unvote then? Are you still holding out judgment on Holden? If not, what is your read of them?

[Tuxedo Mask]

Ask, and you shall receive.

no

Do you feel their reads or scum hunting has been flawed? If so what posts?

Yes, I understand you disagree with their meta based style, however do you believe they have reached incorrect conclusions using it?

i wouldt know yet! but i refuse to read previous games that are not the same setup.

This post really doesn't sit right with me. It feels super disingenuous and misrepresentative. If you refuse to read previous games then don't, I have no clue how that applies to Clidd doing it.

Making this strange accusation, and then not being able to back it up is also weird. If you can't point to one read you disagree with, why would you have a problem with their methods of getting acclimated to the game? Clidd hasn't even pushed anything yet. And yes, I know you can't know for sure if Clidd is right or wrong, but if I saw someone using logic I disagree with to reach a conclusion I disagree with I'd be able to point that out. Your attack of their playstyle feels more like paranoia than anything.

Uh isn't DkKoba only expressing his opinion on the effectiveness of meta reads on players? How is his disagreement towards clidd something that scum would do? Couldn't town also disagree with meta reads being an effective way to sort players?

Dkkoba is they.

The way they express their opinion on the effectiveness of meta doesn't sit right with me. They complain about how they don't want to do it when they're trying to do is make another player who heavily uses meta stop. They also frame it as all Clidd does is use meta, and take no other factors into consideration, ignoring the 'context' that multiple players including Clidd have already discussed.

You take that for my original vote, and then add how they refuse to engage with me. They ignore the points I raised, and kill me disingenuous, while not demonstrating my town read of them when asked. Then they pivot to saying, I think TMI? So I hope they elaborate today.

Either way my greater point is that if it's to Clidd or to me, DKkoba isn't helping us better understand or furthering discussion on their part or in the game as a whole. They are shutting down discussion which is not a town trait.

P-edit: Go right ahead Mr.Golden

[Tuxedo Mask]

Koba vs. Tuxedo feels like Koba vs. Holden all over again. Don't think poorly of either of them at this juncture.

Can you elaborate on your town read of DKKoba? Is it still based in you two having a similar playstyle? Or is there more that I'm not seeing?

[Tuxedo Mask]

Hmm maybe I should get drunk to provoke a read out of Tuxedo. I'm sure there is cheap wine somewhere.

I'm ready when you are. I'm born and raised fighting drunks.

[Tuxedo Mask]

Congrats on finally getting your yoink to be a page top.

Who's posting right now? Ico or D? If it's Ico do you still town read Dkkoba? If so why?

P-edit: Oh, can you answer how you feel about Dkkoba?

[Tuxedo Mask]

Hey, @DkKoba, you ready to talk now? Where do you feel I am disingenuous about you?

[Tuxedo Mask]

you nitpicked and made assumptions abt me after having a townready tone towards me. I'm not going to tolerate people lying about what I have done so knock it off.

What am I lying about?
I disliked you trying to police how Clidd plays. When I asked to substantiate it you deflected. I voted you and you've just been attacking me since. Why are you opposed to questions?

[Tuxedo Mask]

stop reading meta. unless someone ahs played this setup multiple times b4 ur not gonna be able to striclty meta read them based on that. people act different based on role rolled

This doesn't count as policing play?

Here is what I'm saying, if you think Clidd's methods are flawed I think you should be able to point out those flaws. Is there a conclusion or read they've reached so far using meta that you disagree with? This has nothing to do with weather or not you us meta. If you don't disagree with Clidd and/or your disagreement isn't meta based why does it matter?

[Tuxedo Mask]

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

@CJ (is that okay?) are you still scum reading Holden? Why/why not? What's your goal with this wagon hoping? Your votes (or unmoved votes) look opportunistic.

I'm holding judgment. There's not enough on Holden to justify a scum read for me atm. My goal is to vote scum. Yeah quite surprising, I know.

But you went out of your way to announce you keeping your RVS vote on them. Were you scum reading them for doing something awkward? And how do you mean there isn't enough on Holden? What do you want from them?

To answer your first question, I wanted to move it from you!

Do you like to move your vote around? Does it help form reads? Or do you mean you're town reading me?

Yes, I think I do like moving my vote around.
You've been asking game progressing questions, so I don't believe you're in need of pressure. ceejay hasn't had an independent thought yet, so I believe he could do with some!

Good luck with that. I hate independent thoughts. I like looking at other people's reads and ideas and support them, or maybe refute them.

Yeah I mostly just sheep.

How do you determine a good candidate to sheep? Is based on their arguments, or having a prior town read on them?

this post makes tuxedo move up into town. not a gut read.

You posted this right after.

there we go. i also gave it a dark background to not hurt any eyes

my gut says no i wasnt

What do you think about this? Did they simply forget what their read on me was supposed to be? Or would scum be more careful about this stuff? I'm not sure I'm capable of reading Dkkoba, and was hoping to sort them over the Clidd stuff, but haven't gotten anywhere.

[Tuxedo Mask]

Ahh dang, fucked it up. Sorry.

[Tuxedo Mask]

stop reading meta. unless someone ahs played this setup multiple times b4 ur not gonna be able to striclty meta read them based on that. people act different based on role rolled

This doesn't count as policing play?

Here is what I'm saying, if you think Clidd's methods are flawed I think you should be able to point out those flaws. Is there a conclusion or read they've reached so far using meta that you disagree with? This has nothing to do with weather or not you us meta. If you don't disagree with Clidd and/or your disagreement isn't meta based why does it matter?

I explained in the next sentence what they should be looking for but im not policing them.

regardless what about any of this is scummy to u

The next sentence ignores things that Clidd has already stated. You're still trying to explain and control someone ELSE's playstyle, and thinking you know how to Meta hunt (when you don't like it) more than someone who does it often.

I think it's anti-town. To me anti-town seems more likely to be explained by a scum mindset than a town one.

[Tuxedo Mask]

why is it anti-town.

Because you're trying to shut down discussion rather than encourage it. Stomping your feet and yelling for people to not play how works for them is not something I see helping town.

the setup is not a conventional one. I don't see how my point about not being a particularly valuable tool as it would be in a standard open/semi-open setup is invalid.

Right, again, Clidd had already addressed, and it's been addressed a few times since. Why do you think you're the only one taking this set up into account? Besides we're still trying to find scum and town, don't think people are more like to play their alignment than their power?

You trying to wriggle out a scumread on me based on that non-logic makes you blatent scum.
thank u, next

What? If you're paying attention my vote wasn't based on you saying that. I wanted to see your mindset, I voted because I didn't like how you responded to my questioning.

[Tuxedo Mask]

Ron Howard Voice: It wasn't.

[Tuxedo Mask]

Hey guys, I'm really sorry about how I've been neglecting this game. I'm just stressed about things I can't talk about at the moment. I'll do better for tomorrow, I'm sorry.

[Tuxedo Mask]

Yes, reread post coming soon. Like the new Avatar.

[Tuxedo Mask]

Also, I don't think this was answered.

In post 432, enomis wrote:
Anyway, I just wanna say I am avoiding reading dkkoba/interacting with them because I found out how disaster it would be. Tuxedo vs DkKoba is basically a dejavu of me vs DkKoba in another game. (Can't explain more because it is ongoing).


Was that dejavu of you vs the(y) Koba TvT or were either of you scum?

[Tuxedo Mask]

tuxedo why are you not scum and why should drunk me trust you?

hint: imdrinking tonight and drunk me will talk to u again if u are around.

Looking forward to it. Hopefully, our conversation is more productive this time.

[Tuxedo Mask]

#42 What were you hoping to accomplish with it?
#66 and #69 (Nice) are both pretty weak, the joke feels forced as well as the vote, he also ignores the posts Koba is putting out.
#135 What about the interact reads as TVT? How was Holden talk passed, Koba? I feel they were actively trying to engage.
#176 Can you answer this now?
#263What about that makes Hoctac town?
# 472 is referring to the end game of Newbie 1996, and I'd like Holden to elaborate on what he means here. From what I'm reading I disagree with his assessment, as my question was about how it's best for town me to respond to long-form accusations. Which isn't something that has come up this game.
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... start=2300 ( I tried to make this look nice and failed.)
#536 Why are you voting Koba? What has changed to make you okay semi engaging them? Were you hoping for a reaction with a naked vote?

Read list:

Town
HoldenGolden: Has a natural and easy-going way about their posts, that feel good tonally. They're also engaged, asking lots of questions and getting lots of content out there.
Roses: Much the same, but not nearly as active. It's also a bit hard to pin them down to being a hydra, for example they don't seem to agree on a read for DKKoba. What is your read on Koba? It seems town, but your response to #364 seems to be against that.
Hoctac: It also feels natural, and their strange questions and more focus on humor seem to be playstyle indictive rather than anything else. Their recent burst of activity looks good too, though I disagree with their take on Roses.
Clidd: I'd like to see more from them, but what I have I like. They're always a very open player, and I follow the logic that they are laying out. There discussion about Koba with Holden specifically looks very town motivated from both of them.
Kilga: I've not seen anything I dislike from them, but they've been pretty passive. They get a nulltown lean. Who's your top scum read at the moment?
CJ & Enomis: I think there is a good chance of scum here, it would explain the weird purgatory game state. With scum being very passive and under the radar. However, having just completed Newbie 2001 I'm willing to wait on Enomis here. Cj on the other hand has been much active, but not saying anything.
@CJ You say you have sheep playstyle, but there have been multiple pushes from players, what about them hasn't appealed to you? Why would you go for Enomis over anyone else?

I feel like this whole game has just a conga-line of players waiting for other players to respond. Dkkoba retrospective comes next.

Spoiler: Quotes I'm asking about

imo what to do with someone that doesn't want to hammer depends on how they handle the situation. Someone that goes "no I'm townreading them and that's that" and shoves their fingers in their ears can be sent to the guillotine the next day because that reeks of scum wanting to avoid hammering a supersaint. I'd be substantially more willing to give leeway to someone that goes "I'm townreading this person for A B C reasons and I think the case against them doesn't fly for X Y Z reasons" and actually makes an effort to dissuade the lynch onto someone else they find scummier. (Assuming their argumentation isn't all bunk, of course.)

Too much word salad 2/10
VOTE: kilga

I will now forever refer to bombs as the bada bing bada booms

My vote on Holden stays. Most awkward guy so far.

But I am going to have to eventually lynch you for identity theft.

Does it really count as theft if you literally gave them that avatar, though?

---

Heading to bed. DkKoba vs. HoldenGolden reads Town/Town slapfight to me at this juncture. I feel like they may just be talking past each other.

now i'm just confused. was that a tuxedo townread, ceejay scumread, both, or neither?

-D

But what were you going to say before Hoctac answered? When you thought the question was addressed as you.

I'm not sure, I'm still getting my bearings in this game. Some people seem very friendly but I'm not sure if being friendly makes someone town or mafia.

Also, I liked the person who made the first push against Night 3 Roses. For making the push itself; I think it was productive and useful of them!

Hoctac could be townie after all I guess.

How much mafia have you played @hoctac?

Alright disclamer, too much drinking. I've lost track of tjme(I think the sun is coming for me) and fuck if I can read.

So imma just goddam say it and say that tuxedo clothes me and I dont know quite why but he pingles me. Prob paranoids from telling the secrets of how to respond to shit in that newbie. Intuink hisbinteraction with the other dunk badtard showed this because hebfucking did it. He just did it on? It's hard to fucking explain.

Tuxedo is a bad fudge

VOTE: dkkoba

In post 364, DkKoba wrote:
i answerd ur dumb questions nerd nerd and ur pivot is not logically consistent. ur tone towards me suggested u thought i was town. so ur sudden pivot is not genuine.


How to burn thru towncredit in 1 sentence or less, Walter

[Tuxedo Mask]

I wanted to be cool, and have the numbers link to the posts and whatnot, but I could figure out how to do it. So you're stuck with this monstrosity. I'm sorry.

[Tuxedo Mask]

Is that how?! Ugh, I even tried looking it up. I was messing around with the URL function and got nowhere. Thanks.

[Tuxedo Mask]

So I started this reread to figure out where I had gone so off track with my read of Dkkoba.
After reading the game over, I have found these posts.

I think #59 - 61 shows a fundamental disagreement of how to use votes.
#93 Feels like a genuine attempt to solve and win the game outright for town. I understand that effort is NAI, but effort in this way, especially after their first high effort attempt was proven faulty shows a very protown motive.
#98 Pings me, Koba hasn't even given Kilga time to respond to their vote on them. Instead, jumping onto Holden wagon, even though the reason applies more to Roses and me. What changed between post 73 and 98?
#303 What are the other things that pinged you about Kilga?
#315 really helps put them into perspective, though it really isn't something I agree with. It even explains my confusion over things like 73 and 98.

I think taking time away and pulling out the frustration I'm feeling for mafia as a whole, I think I have a good town read of Koba. Right below Roses. They are active and solvey, not just in pushes but in theory analysis as well. I also have a better understanding of where they coming from over the Clidd thing, though I still disagree with their initial reaction, or how they reacted to me questioning them.

Spoiler: Posts I'm refrencing

Sure we can go with that. More like tl dr materiał that prompted me to vote them

I'm sorry, I don't know what you mean. What about that is alignment indicative?

fixed also added extra stats, the one about essentially 50/50 chance of only having a single type of non vig PR is disconcerting.

anyways I think holden wifom'd too much so i think i changed my mind about voting them VOTE: holden

oh ffs i forgot to click preview.

but these 2 posts pinged me bc I feel like scum is more interested in self meta.

theres a couple other things that pinged me too but I will keep that to myself for now since its early. they're the reason for the :S.

I still maintain my vote on hoctac however as I don't think they are towntelling right now.

I dont scumread anyone at this stage of the game. To do so requires a blatent scumslip.

To simplify the questions.
What did you mean here? If the answer is obvious to anyone else, please tell me so I stop making a fool of myself.

How do you determine a good candidate to sheep? Is based on their arguments, or having a prior town read on them?

Arguments mostly, if they make sense to me.

With your vote still on Roses does that mean you're not convinced by their defense, if so why not? What does it mean for your strategy when the person you sheep moves their vote? Are you just waiting for another argument you like?


Sidenote: sorry about that last post, blame my big dumb thumbs and phone posting.

ok I never actually scumread anyone early on. my "scumreads" are always meant to annoy prod and push players to getting emotional. emotion betrays alignment more often than not. is that more clear?

[Tuxedo Mask]

UNVOTE: Dkkoba

VOTE: CJ

[Tuxedo Mask]

I guess we aren't having a talk 2.0. That's disappointing.

[Tuxedo Mask]

@Tuxedo Mask: My top scumread is Hoctac, hence my voting them and spending a number of posts calling them out on their behavior surrounding their Koba vote. I'm not sure how this could possibly be unclear to someone that has been reading my posts? I also don't really agree with the assessment that my play has been 'passive' - I've been actively trying to state reads on things without being prompted to do so because that's how scum get hunted - but I suppose I am biased on the matter.

Yes, but your vote has been parked there for over 400 posts, I was wondering if anything of Hoctac's recent activity had changed your view of them? Or is the timing of their vote on Koba still the scummiest thing that happened this? Say Hoctac is telling the truth. Where then?

Why would you want Cj or Enomis lynched? And why CJ first?

[Tuxedo Mask]

Hey guys, sorry, for being mia. Wanted to post yesterday but work was really busy. Will only have time for this on the weekend or tonight. But notice the deadline is close.

VOTE: ceejay
Let's lynch cj.

Why CJ over Hoctac?

[Tuxedo Mask]

@George Bailey I'm Voting Ceejayvionya

Apologies, the Votecounter changed that to clidd.
-GB

[Tuxedo Mask]

@George Also Kilga is still voting Hoctac.

[Tuxedo Mask]

ok I don't know what to make of tuxedo, I kinda was trying to get them emotional but they weren't really biting UNVOTE:

Remind me about this after the game, because this is funny for reasons I can't really get into.

As for the rest, I think we have very opposed playstyles. I like trying to discuss with other players and reach the best consensus. Whenever I do feel frustrated or whatever, I just walk away from the computer for a bit as I'm no longer having fun and don't want to make the game less fun for others.

Could you answer the questions I addressed to you in my reread?

[Tuxedo Mask]

Penguin, I'm confused. So in the game, a town player incorrectly used set up analysis and gave scum you a clear? Why does that make Koba trying to use set up analysis make them scummy?

Koba, can you answer the questions I asked you?

[Tuxedo Mask]

I don't like his trying to be town leader, pushing setup spec hard but missing basic foundational points, or his reaction to being pushed or questioned.

This seems like playstyle more than anything, but they do seem to be actively scum hunting. Also when they've been wrong and corrected they adjust accordingly. Do you think scum!Koba was hoping to lie about public set up info and just not be called out?

What does their 'wagon' falling apart mean for you?

Outside of Koba, what are you reads on the other players?

[Tuxedo Mask]

Sorry - I think I disagree with your interpretation of their play so far. I think scum!Koba trying to push a mechanical solve that is probably more beneficial for scum is not town indicative, especially since they are doing so whilst applying misinterpretations/understandings of the setup. I actually don't see the scum hunting so help me see that.

Their wagon falling apart could be either town or scum indicative, I just find it interesting that it completely dissipated. Something to look at in later phases.

So this quote is them explaining their playstyle.

my "scumreads" are always meant to annoy prod and push players to getting emotional. emotion betrays alignment more often than not. is that more clear?

They do this with me, Holden, and Kilga throughout the game. These interactions show active scum hunting, by their style, I just feel that the way other players have reacted has negatively impacted this style pretty hard. So I think there is a difference between NOT scum hunting, and to have your method of scum hunting not work.

[Tuxedo Mask]

#42 What were you hoping to accomplish with it?
#98 Pings me, Koba hasn't even given Kilga time to respond to their vote on them. Instead, jumping onto Holden wagon, even though the reason applies more to Roses and me. What changed between post 73 and 98?
#303 What are the other things that pinged you about Kilga?

Here

@Dkkoba

I've made what I was asking more clear.

[Tuxedo Mask]

#42 What were you hoping to accomplish with it?
#98 Pings me, Koba hasn't even given Kilga time to respond to their vote on them. Instead, jumping onto Holden wagon, even though the reason applies more to Roses and me. What changed between post 73 and 98?
#303 What are the other things that pinged you about Kilga?

Here

@Dkkoba

I've made what I was asking more clear.

\
42: rereading i have no idea what i was doing there. I saw lots of big words and said nope tl;dr. but at the moment i was thinking like "ok obfuscating language i dont like this let me get some emtional language out of this person"

98: I feel I explained this move earlier, but probably I should come clean 100% even tho it hurts my pride, but there was 1 player I played against a few months ago that used a bunch of wifom like that in an offsite game and I didn't even read into it and I ended up townreading them and nearly losing the game (someone else carried). so I sorta naturally scumread it right away and it pings me. (it was a resistance game, not mafia but the basis still is there)

303: I don't remember so I probably was just trying to bluff my way into pressure on them. but their carefree tone suggests town after I just ISO'd them so I feel I can trust them for now.

This honesty feels very town, not a forced answer that feels in line with Dkkoba's play.

p-edit: I think Hoctac and Koba are town, so if we're just waiting on a replacement for CJ then VOTE: Enomis

[Tuxedo Mask]

Enomis has a lot of the same scum equity that Cj has, and if they disagreed with choosing who hammers they should have brought it when it was discussed at the start of the day, not when they're asked to follow through at the end.

[Tuxedo Mask]

Should be L-1, Kilga, me, CJ, and you.

[Tuxedo Mask]

Hmm I'm not bother by that wagon formation tbh and more bothered by my ability to not count right.

It worries me as well, your mother and I have been talking, and well we think you should switch schools. No pressure, but just read the pamphlet, they're very accomodating and nice.

[Tuxedo Mask]

@Kilga just because people are voting with me, I still want to know why they're voting the way they are. Also, CJ didn't come back till near the end of the deadline, there wasn't exactly the time to completely move the Enomis wagon over at that time. I thought Enomis and CJ were scum for similar reasons, I didn't think they were scum together. I don't like doing associative reads till after there have been flips. But yes, I've had too many town reads this whole game, It's been something I can't shake.

I think Penguin still looks town for their push on Koba, I don't see scum coming in and trying to hard push a difficult player and wagon when they join in. It seems very town motivated. As for the rest, I'd have to reread.

I'm ready to claim if people think that's the best option.

[Tuxedo Mask]

Can't we just agree for the vigs to not shoot?

[Tuxedo Mask]

I can claim if people want me to go first.

[Tuxedo Mask]

When does Kilga claim?

[Tuxedo Mask]

I think Kilga should go after me. It's weird they just seem to get to go last by virtue of making the list. I don't like Roses defending it either.

Non-vig.

[Tuxedo Mask]

Tux: Kilga > ??? > ??? > ???

I guess Kilga > Roses > Hoctac > and Penguin

[Tuxedo Mask]

Hey, sorry, I didn't expect to be so busy today. I'm sorry.

As for Kilga, it's pretty disingenuous to paint me staying with the Enomis lynch as being happy with any lynch. I pretty clearly had scum reads on both CJ and Enomis for similar reasons. I was switching from one scum read wagon to another, as the alternative wagons were both Dkkoba and Hoctac people I thought were town. It makes no sense for me to try at the last second to pivot wagons from my scum read of Enomis to my scum read of CJ, especially if that wagon had people who seemed more likely to go onto my town reads instead of CJ.

If Enomis was some sort of compromise on a null read, I would understand where they were coming from, but it wasn't.

I'll try and post more tomorrow, apologies again for my absence.

[Tuxedo Mask]

@PP do you really think scum Kilga spends all day 1 bussing his partner?

[Tuxedo Mask]

@Tuxedo Mask: I did not mean to say you were happy with any lynch. If that is how what I wrote came across, that's my bad. To be clear, I meant to say that I don't believe you cared which of ceejay or enomis got lynched. Yes, you had suspicions of both of them, but you prioritized ceejay earlier in the day for some reason, and the only stated reason you switched to enomis was because of the potential replacement. I feel like Town Tuxedo, upon seeing ceejay reappear and thus eliminate the possibility of a replacement, would have acknowledged ceejay's return in some fashion, either by switching the vote back to ceejay or explaining why you now prefer enomis. That you did not do either of these while demonstrably having the time to do so is why I suspect you.

Right, but what I was arguing was that the game state felt really weird, no one seemed to know how to engage, and no pushes we really gaining much ground. So I thought the explanation might be that town was simply talking in circles and that scum was lurking, so my suspicions fell onto CJ and Enomis who really didn't do anything day 1. As well when CJ started posting at the end of day 1, I'm not going to turn around and try to lynch a lurker BECAUSE they started posting, if maybe he said something that pinged me I would have, but he didn't.

What about you, Tux? You haven't expressed who you think it might be today.

I'm not sure at the moment, Kilga's pinging me the most. I don't like the logic of their push on me at all, it seems like a very dishonest representation of where I stood at the end of day one. Also, their now town read of you seems weird but I don't know if its scum motivated. Would scum!Kilga come into day 2, and say they reevaluated their read of you now that instead of having to convince three people, they and Roses only have to convince one? You could explain that with them potentially being Scum!Hoctac and Scum!Kilga, but I think that's really unlikely since it's a huge risk on their part to have Kiga spend all of day 1 bussing their partner.

PP and Roses would make the most sense as Scum!Kilga's partner, but that would mean me being wrong about my two strongest town reads. I think Roses interactions with Kilga could be theater, and maybe an attempt at pocketing me. PP just doesn't strike me as scum, because of their very hard push of Koba at EOD, seems very risky for scum to do especially replacing in so late into a widely town read slot. It would be easier to coast. It seems much more town motivated.

As for you, I liked your playstyle day 1, and your explosion of effort in the latter half of that day felt very good. Your recent questioning of Kilga seems good too.

Still need to actually reread though, which I've been slacking on, sorry.

@Smarter People would scum quick hammer in this set up? Like I get in a normal set up if I'm town and Kilga is town, scum could jump on me for a win, but here would the risk of hitting a Saint, getting shot by a Vig, or shooting a bomb at night prevent them from going for it?

[Tuxedo Mask]

If Tuxedo were scum, then two of those three reactions are genuine town reactions from people that seem to know what they're doing better than I. That's enough to tell me that the case isn't worth pursuing.

But isn't the problem here that if that's true than they're wrong? So just because the reaction is genuine it isn't a reason to scum read me less.

Like the options are...
1. You're scum failing to get two town players in Hoctac, PP, and Rose's to lynch town me.

2. We're both town, and for some reason scum aren't using your suspicions of me to win.

3. I'm scum, and you haven't convinced two town in Hoctac, Roses, PP to lynch me.

So you backing off your super aggressive start. That you voted me into your first post in MYLO looked really bad.

I'm okay to lynch here.

[Tuxedo Mask]

So you are proposing my attitude should be "this isn't accomplishing anything but I'm going to do it anyway"? That would be a very illogical approach, particularly in LYLO. If what I've done so far isn't accomplishing anything then town is much better served that I look for things I might have missed elsewhere.

What I'm saying is that this line of reasoning is flawed...

If Tuxedo were scum, then two of those three reactions are genuine town reactions from people that seem to know what they're doing better than I. That's enough to tell me that the case isn't worth pursuing.

If that's true then they don't 'know what they're doing better'. Right, from Town!Kilga perspective town can either have majority genuine reaction to me and be wrong or have a majority ingenuine reaction to me and be right. It can't be both. So to drop it here feels really off. Now Scum!Kilga could reach this conclusion because they know two of Roses, PP, and Hoctac reactions are genuine and not being convinced to lynch Town!Tux.

Also, if Kilga is town, I don't see scum's play here? Like I'm pretty sure going for the quick hammer on me is the best play.

[Tuxedo Mask]

In post 963, Tuxedo Mask wrote:
Also, if Kilga is town, I don't see scum's play here? Like I'm pretty sure going for the quick hammer on me is the best play.


In your hypothetical situation where I am town, do you not think I am a valid scum play mislynch? <_<

Like this could be, but no one except me and you (PP a bit) have talked about my read. My statement is based on you starting the day with a vote of me. So Town!Kiga had the strongest stance starting today, and even cast a vote. I'm not in your head, but on the page, it looks like it wouldn't take much to convince you to lynch me. So for scum to sit back and let that read slowly deteriorate feels weird. But if we're thinking that scum is carefully avoiding a Saint and trying to stack the wagons right then I need to rethink this.

[Tuxedo Mask]

I'm not sure at the moment, Kilga's pinging me the most. I don't like the logic of their push on me at all, it seems like a very dishonest representation of where I stood at the end of day one. Also, their now town read of you seems weird but I don't know if its scum motivated. Would scum!Kilga come into day 2, and say they reevaluated their read of you now that instead of having to convince three people, they and Roses only have to convince one? You could explain that with them potentially being Scum!Hoctac and Scum!Kilga, but I think that's really unlikely since it's a huge risk on their part to have Kiga spend all of day 1 bussing their partner.

I struggle to see a world where Kilga is scum and Roses are town. Since, Kilga absolutely continues scumreading me and capitalises on Roses' scumread on me to win today.

Roses pushing Kilga here also suggests they're not scum together either. So weirdly that means Kilga is probably town here?

That makes sense, right?

Yes, it does. I feel in a tough spot at the moment, as Kilga seems the most scummy on their own, I just don't see anyone being their partner. I need to reread PP, and Kilga's case on them. But I'm really not seeing it.

I don't know regarding the last line. I feel like if the scumteam is Penpow + Roses, it's entirely possible they just sit back and hope Kilga votes you and then they quickhammer for the win. But waiting around instead of voicing support in this case might have backfired if that was the case.

Yeah, like it's possible, but I'm not sure why they wouldn't at least put their finger on the scale. Like Occam's razor and all that.

I think it's Penpow + Roses/Tux now. The DkKoba kill coming from scum only makes sense if Penpow is scum. If he's town, then having DkKoba and Penpow battle it out in lylo is like an easy victory for scum.

I want to vote Penpow.

Sorry did I miss something, why are we so sure the NK was Koba? Just because of the hammer? Also, do you think scum would have predicted that day 2 would be lylo? Or do you just mean none PP scum would have kept Koba and PP around for as long as possible?

[Tuxedo Mask]

Tuxe... I gotta see more from you. You've been careful, you agreed with me saying Kilga is town, and you townread me, do does that mean you think it's Roses+Penpow?

Well, I agreed with your logic that he seemed to have no likely partners, but that doesn't stop Kilga's slot being the scummiest on its own. Though yes, I do see the logic in a Roses+Penpow team. Going back to day 1, if we're thinking the NK was Koba it does have me reread the interaction. While scum probably would be less likely to take that difficult path, it was also a fairly low-risk move on its own, especially if he planned to just NK Koba. I think the best outcome is for PP or KIlga to hammer the other in a lynch, seems guaranteed to flip scum that way. Maybe one of them could claim if they are Saint? Not both just one, and we get the other to hammer that one? Feel free to let me know if you think that's a stupid plan, but I think we should use the set up to maximize our chances here.

[Tuxedo Mask]

wtf is the logic in us + PP?
if this is literally Tux + PP then fuck me and call me Jingles lol

Just based on how things have shaken out I feel the teams must be Hocatac and Kilga or PP and you. You two have also consistently town read each other with minimal actual interaction. Also, I feel like you may be pocketing me, you keep grabbing quotes of mine and just saying "+1" or "tux is town" which just makes me nervous.

Lastly, there is this...

Spoiler:

hardclaim Night 3 Bulletproof

VOTE: clidd



-D

Isn't it a semi-common tell for scum to rvs their partners?

[Tuxedo Mask]

Still think it's Kilga/Hoctac so I will hammer either one of those two. If we're lynching me one of those two needs to be the hammer.

What do you think of Hoctac's argument that being confirmed non-bomb that they should carry out the hammer of any lynch today? Or do people prefer that the hammered should pick the hammerer?

[Tuxedo Mask]

Like Tuxey, what are you trying to do to solve? In 1091, you're not reading into the implications of me suggesting that people should think that, and are instead asking Penpow like it'll help you solve his alignment. How will it?

Also, I find your solve to be a little simplistic. From your PoV, I could totally see Penpow + Hoctac. We've shaded each other but Penpow is pushing Kilga to be lynched, while I'm kinda all over the place and certainly haven't committed to Penpow being lynched.

My question was just more based on theory stuff. I'm just trying to gauge if people agree with your idea why and why not? I thought PP and Kilga lynching/hammering each other would be the best solve mechanically. But it seems I'm wrong, and that we just have to lynch scum today. So PP keeping the binary of them versus Kilga is interesting. Could be them being incorrect (in their willingness to die if town) or scum posturing like "I'm ready to be hammered, I'm so town."

You are all over the place, but it reads more like you're trying to save Kilga than anything. PP to PP/Roses to Roses/Me to Me/PP it just feels like your only concern is that Kilga doesn't die. So that's what I mean by the divide feels like Roses/PP versus Hoctac/Kilga, one side wants Kilga dead and the other wants Kilga to live. Right now I'm still for the person I find scummiest on their own, which is Kilga.

[Tuxedo Mask]

Well, I townread Kilga and can't find a partner for him due to how this day has played out. Like, he cased and vote you, Penpow and Roses both want him lynched, and now you're also pushing him. I guess bussing is a thing, but it didn't feel necessary?

I understand that, but I'm not seeing scum PP or Roses. I also can't really rationalize them dropping their push on me with a townie mindset, especially the logic of town majority not being convinced of their case showing it may be flawed. Like that only works if Kilga is scum.

Hoctac: Rose > Penpow > Kilga

Roses: Hoctac > Penpow > Kilga

Tux: Kilga > ??? > ??? > ???

Penpow: Roses > Hoctac/Kilga

This is also weird to look back at now.

Can you explain what looks weird here?

[Tuxedo Mask]

I understand that, but I'm not seeing scum PP or Roses. I also can't really rationalize them dropping their push on me with a townie mindset, especially the logic of town majority not being convinced of their case showing it may be flawed. Like that only works if Kilga is scum.

Oof that was poorly written, I mean I don't see them as scummy individually, but I see a logic to them being a team if that makes sense? The rest was about how I see Kilga as individually quite scummy.

[Tuxedo Mask]

Just the fact Roses and Penpow were cool with Kilga at the start of the day. Should look at who of the two of [Roses,Penpow] started pushing Kilga first, and who tagged along, since if Kilga is scum, his partner is most likely the person who was second in scumreading him. Since at that point, we have you + 1st person scumreading him, so scum buddy might feel like they have to bus.

Sorry I'm not sure what you're getting at here? Are you just saying if Kilga flips scum we should look for a bus on the lynch and not the one person trying to stop it, you?

[Tuxedo Mask]

No, that's fair, I was just more caught off guard by the pivot. Cause now you seem very suddenly on a Kilga flip. Shouldn't you be trying to convince me that Roses or PP is scum if you don't want Kilga killed, or do you think Kilga might be scum now? Sorry, I just feel like I'm not keeping up with your train of thought.

[Tuxedo Mask]

Okay, so what do you think of Kilga on their own? As I've said them dropping a push from me saying town majority wasn't buying doesn't make sense from town to me. Also yes, I know they said they reevaluated the case on their own as well, but that doesn't stop the will of town being a reason they brought up and it making no sense.

Also, in general what are you reads of people as they stand on their own?

[Tuxedo Mask]

I'm not seeing scum PP

Individually speaking, I think Penpow is towny for play

If'n y'all are going to say stuff like this then you could at least tell me why 962 and 1003 are off the mark.

Because I don't think clipping those things out of context accurately represents the back and forth Kilga had with Koba. They were things that allegedly stuck out to PP on their read through, and he pushed that. Koba reacted, and the back and forth that followed seemed to be what strengthed PP's read of that slot.

What does scum PP have to gain joining the game hours before the deadline seeing the wagons are Hoctac and CJ/Enomis and picking a fight with Koba? Trying to fight the flow of the game seems way more town motivated than scum motivated. Even if Hocatac or CJ/Enomis were their partner, it would be easier to just support the opposing wagon over trying to start a whole new one.

As for the things you quoted regarding yourself they said they were pings. If it was the core of their read on you then it would be different, but it's just stuff that stuck out to them. Again this just feels like how PP engages with the game, pushing stuff that gut ping them and growing from there.

That's a whole lot of bad accusations from where I'm sitting. What good arguments would you say PP has made that make you think PP is town, outside of the piggybacking on the efforts of others against me?

Could you show what you're talking about here?

P.S. your post would be easier to follow if you linked to why they were factually incorrect or explained it, rather than just linking to the incorrect post.

[Tuxedo Mask]

Why you wanna be the hammer? What have you thought about the last few exchanges?

[Tuxedo Mask]

What's the incorrect statement shading you?

[Tuxedo Mask]

I just finished ISOing you, and I have to agree I see you do with Kilga what happened with Koba, which seems more playstyle indictive than scum indictive.

I also still can't drop Kilga's dropping of me which might be tunneling but I can't see the town mindset in it. Also, Hoctac's all over the place reads while maintaining Kilga near the top feels like the scum team trying to secure a lynch on you.

So I'm ready to vote Kilga.

[Tuxedo Mask]

@Kilga, who do you want to be the hammer?

[Tuxedo Mask]

I also still can't drop Kilga's dropping of me which might be tunneling but I can't see the town mindset in it. Also, Hoctac's all over the place reads while maintaining Kilga near the top feels like the scum team trying to secure a lynch on you.

You think Kilga and I would be so blatant about it? That even after all 3 of you want to lynch Kilga, I'll still be defending him and going for anyone but him? That's a terrible losing strategy if we're scum.

I think it might be reasonable risk as you guys only need to convince me or Roses to lynch PP instead. And if your scum that means all remaining town have a 50/50 chance to be bombs, so if one of you gets lynched it sets it up that likely the best your team can hope for is a tie. But this is something we can discuss tomorrow.

[Tuxedo Mask]

I'm here, where are Kilga and Hoctac?

[Tuxedo Mask]

VOTE: Kilga

[Tuxedo Mask]

Wait, are you scum? Damn.

[Tuxedo Mask]

I never should have listened to you in the PT.

[Tuxedo Mask]

Ugh, I wanted to vote before bed. But noooooo that was too suspicious. Now I'm going to die.

[Tuxedo Mask]

I mean you did keep us scared and were consistently landing on scum in your reads.

[Tuxedo Mask]

@Holden I'm sorry! Also, you kept us scared, by being (from our perspective) a town leader, and staying on me all of day 1.

[Tuxedo Mask]

If Hoctac wasn't a blank I wouldn't have stood a chance.

[Tuxedo Mask]

@Holden for your dead chat vig idea, it should only be revealed to those in dead chat. So people start just dropping in the middle of the day and no one knows why.

Also yeah, I was super scummy at the end and just didn't know how to close it. Love the profile Koba.

Oh also @Koba I said I'd mention it end game but I think the biggest reason your reaction based playstyle didn't yield results from me. Besides me just generally trying to take a break when the game stops being fun. I was playing a much more infuriating game at the time so talking to drunk you was fun compared to Newbie 2004.

[Tuxedo Mask]

I'm very sorry Kilga, I look forward to playing with you as town.

[Tuxedo Mask]

I dislike the implication my avatar was ever not top tier, but I am glad you've seen the light. (Even if it had to be fixed.)

[Tuxedo Mask]

I wanna also point out that people at the start of the game (Koba and Kilga I think) said scum was probably the one's the be fake claiming as a joke. They just happened to go after Holden, the only townie of the three fake claimers.