Mini 2144: Yu-Gi-Oh Card UPick Game Over - Good Cards Win.

[Socratés]

Greetings. I am a scholar of philosophy, and shall be present in an observatory capacity, and attempt to guide town towards the mafia.

[Socratés]

jjh927, if JacksonVirgo had not colored his posts, would you have voted elsewhere?

[Socratés]

jjh927, have you found that scum statistically claim scum more often than town claim scum in RVS?

[Socratés]

jjh927, do you find that entering a game without placing an RVS vote is NAI?

[Socratés]

What are your philosophical thoughts on Jackson's entrance Socrates?

My experience suggests that it falls outside the dichotomy of what mafia and town would post, and is thus an unreliable metric to decide one's alignment upon to any extent.

Do you disagree? Why so?

[Socratés]

Espeonage can be hard town I guess

Do you not believe that Espeonage chose this particular style of approach before/independent of his alignment?

Or am I mistaken and have failed to see a different indicator for his alignment?

[Socratés]

I think your methodology neglects practical insight in favour of an ultimately fruitless toil for a theoretical truth

I have already stated a position that was informed by my experience. Do you not think that that would qualify as "practical insight"?

[Socratés]

You are mistaken and you have failed to see a different indicator for his alignment

May we know what this indicator is?

[Socratés]

Perhaps he participated to study some philosophy under my tutelage.

[Socratés]

Espeonage is actually working around the probably self-imposed post restriction

I had not considered the possibility that it was a post restriction. Thank you for your insight. I agree with your conclusion.

[Socratés]

Ah but there is so much overlap and your model doesn’t allow for the town aligned scum player eithrr

My philosophical model grants me a 75% read rate.

[Socratés]

Have I been summoned? Is my vote required on someone?

[Socratés]

Espeonage, you're allowed to quote people; so I'll make this simpler for you.

Crimson97 is town
JacksonVirgo is town
Shireen Baratheon is town
Elsa Jay is town
Jake the Wolfie is town
Espeonage is town
Porkens is town
acryon is town
Socrates is town
Oronoko is town
jjh927 is town
beeboy is town
Alduskkel is town

Crimson97 is scum
JacksonVirgo is scum
Shireen Baratheon is scum
Elsa Jay is scum
Jake the Wolfie is scum
Espeonage is scum
Porkens is scum
acryon is scum
Socrates is scum
Oronoko is scum
jjh927 is scum
beeboy is scum
Alduskkel is scum

[Socratés]

You are the definition of active lurking.

In the context of active lurking, how would you assess my own slot?

[Socratés]

Crimson, it is as though after the Porkens vote, you have solely focused on either Porkens or defense of yourself. Do you not want to learn the alignments of other players on your wagon, or in the game?

[Socratés]

Crimson wagon has a shady composition so I am going to give him more time to get the ball rolling.
If something feels wrong odds are something is.

Do you not think it is much clearer to simply say "two scumreads of mine are voting him, therefore I am not voting there presently", in that that is exactly what feels wrong?

Or does this imply you doubt your scumreads in some fashion because from their push?

[Socratés]

Acryon, why does jjh927 not happen to be a townread for you? Do you have any concerns about his slot?

[Socratés]

Espeonage, what is the meaning of life, and the universe? Please provide a detailed answer through your post restriction - it is important.

[Socratés]

jjh927 happens to strongly townread Espeonage, which is a read you agree upon. Is there any point of disagreement between his reads and yours?

Would you not consider that a reason to townread him to some extent?

[Socratés]

Can you give me a list of reasons you feel that Beeboy is town?

[Socratés]

VOTE: Acryon

[Socratés]

VOTE: Acryon

I don’t like this distraction. Don’t love acryon but we need to settle me vs. crimson now, please, if you don’t mind.

I am of the mind currently that you and Crimsons are the distractions, my porky friend.
Might I remind you that Crimson was the first vote on you and the instigator of the attack - does qualify as a "risk", does it not?
I recall countless examples of townsfolk stubborn and frustrated when pushed.

Feel free to continue pushing Crimson, but I have a stronger reason to vote Acryon: his towncase of Beeboy is overdone and overexplained in a manner that seems like it's scum trying to fake justifying a strong townread with a chain of generic reasons.

[Socratés]

Crimson, it is as though after the Porkens vote, you have solely focused on either Porkens or defense of yourself. Do you not want to learn the alignments of other players on your wagon, or in the game?

I wanted to wait a little to see what opinions people would give without me interfering.

And what have you learnt? Elaborate.

[Socratés]

You asked for a "list of reasons". I went and found specific posts to give them to you and that's scummy?

So if I had asked "why do you townread him" instead of "provide a list of reasons" you would have responded differently?

[Socratés]

Not necessarily, but my point is that you asked for reasons then criticized me actually giving them to you, which feels disingenuous. I have a feeling if I gave you a response you deemed weak, you would have found an issue with that as well.

Do you disagree with my reasons?

Quite the contrary - I'm looking for legitimacy and genuineness, not weak or strong.
Having weak reasons to townread someone is fine, in context.
You say you would give the same response independent of the manner in which I asked it - and my assessment of it is that it is scummy.

Do you not think that your towncase is a valid basis for me to make a read?

[Socratés]

The things you learn from any wagon. Who sides with who, who takes a neutral spot and who decided to not get into the discussion. Also whatever Espeonage is doing. As the game developes these interactions will become more meaningful.

Yes, and what have you learnt from it?
Who sided with who? Who took a neutral spot? Who decided not to get into it?
What meaning do you derive from all of it

right now

?

Unless you are saying that you will refuse to scumhunt elsewhere for an indefinite amount of time while you and Porkens attack each other - is that a correct assessment?

[Socratés]

On beeboy? Yes

And I have done exactly that - formed a read on you from your towncase. You agree that I can. So why is it disingenuous?

I shall note that you haven't attacked me over the substance of my attack on you, but rather the fact that I attacked you.

[Socratés]

It just felt disingenuous for you to seemingly be calling me out on something that you specifically asked me for. Disingenuous is probably too strong a term for what I am trying to get at.

I understand what you are trying to explain; still, my read on you holds. If you make a compelling case for the lynch of another, I shall consider switching.

I

s

i

t

b

a

d

t

o

t

h

i

n

k

t

h

a

t

w

e

s

h

o

u

l

d

j

u

s

t

P

L

E

s

p

e

o

n

a

g

e

b

e

c

a

u

s

e

n

o

b

o

d

y

c

a

n

u

n

d

e

r

s

t

a

n

d

t

h

e

m

.

A

l

s

o

C

r

i

m

s

o

n

d

o

e

s

n

'

t

p

i

n

g

s

c

u

m

m

y

t

o

m

e

b

u

t

P

o

r

k

e

n

'

f

o

r

c

i

n

g

'

u

s

t

o

f

o

c

u

s

o

n

t

h

e

m

b

o

t

h

i

s

s

c

u

m

m

y

i

n

i

t

'

s

o

w

n

s

e

n

s

e

.

What efforts have you made to understand him, so far?

[Socratés]

VOTE: Elsa Jay

[Socratés]

I townread Porkens and scumread Elsa Jay.

A little funny to have a Super Saint with plurality lynches in effect, yeah?

[Socratés]

Read Jay's ISO: lot of talk, little substance is my impression of it.

[Socratés]

jjh, Espeonage, Porkens, Crimson, Oronoko all feel town.

[Socratés]

VOTE: Elsa Jay

Now I'm the last vote!

[Socratés]

If it's about substance then clearly I'm still doing more then certain people

Why do you assume I treat everyone equally?
Your content is very lackluster compared to what I've seen from you in the past.

"Siding with Porky, Crimson is scummy" surely I'd expect the Ice Queen to have more than that... No?

[Socratés]

Spoiler:

Don't bother with Espionage. With a restriction like that, they gotta be town. Not like anyone can understand them anyway. It's more like a semi useless innocent child.

Vote: Crimson

Well atleast your able to vote right enough.

A wolf is trying to attack the ice Queen? So your saying I'm being pushed by scum, right Espeonage? Yeah, probably.

Thanks for the concern. I will protect you however I can.

Morr evidence siding with Pork and Beans was a better option.

Going for jjh instead of me? Very weird.

I would advise you not lynching me. You will lynch town that way. Unless you wanna take that gamble.

I

a

m

s

u

r

e

y

o

u

g

e

t

t

h

i

s

h

e

a

p

s

b

u

t

.

.

.

y

o

u

h

a

v

e

w

o

l

f

i

n

y

o

u

r

n

a

m

e

s

o

y

o

u

'

r

e

c

o

n

f

i

r

m

e

d

s

c

u

m

.

Jake from state farm would never betray you, because he's like a good neighbor.

If jake was a Mason and not a neighbor I'd side with you, but a neighbor can still be scum. Duh.

Crimson your at L-2 for the crimes of disagreeing with thr pig. How do you plead?

Luckvig: Crimson97

That's not very good neighbor of you.

By Seth I think you mean Soul? And yeah. Cuz until the Mod says your dead you can post.

Besides, could be fake. It's a Mini Theme. Probably is. Dayvig seems 97% a Large Game only theme.

Ah yes, Porkens and his 4 fellow scumbuddies voting you. The classic 5 man team.

It rather uneducated of you to not know site meta at this point means nearly everyone already knows the Dayvig meme. Me telling it to a newbie is just a courtesy.

Piggie is asking what CFDing means. Probably.

Atleast I'm asking it.

In terms of Survivor, that's just a blindside. Weird name but I guess I get the concept.

Carry on.

Hey wait I can grant my own wishes

Day end should be in (expired on 2020-06-02 05:20:00)

It ends Tuesday

Now focus on other things Jake. Geh. Gotta work now though, so later it is.

Make sure you want the scummiest person to hammer me then so they die too bro. Make it fun.

Porkens why the heck are they going after me just cuz they can't get you? Gimme that plot armor too man.

As a reminder since you didnt pay attention last time, I basically claimed Super Saint, so if you hammer me you die Crimson.

Make sure you want the scummiest person to hammer me then so they die too bro. Make it fun.

So you realize I ain't lying either.

Going to bed now cuz it's midnight.

Why are you guys trying so hard to get rid of me anyway? Seems a little much.

I'm trying to see what's scummy about me but I'm just seeing me being myself. Any of you want to explain it too me?

True can you atleast put a space in between names on the VC next time? I almost couldn't tell when Crimson ended and I begun.

should we just have crimson hammer elsa? then everybody is happy...?

woof

Or we can just hammer the scummy one and leave the Super Saint alone.

I'm thinking that 3 of them have already said they would rather vote porkens but they're taking me because the others wouldnt vote him. I'm just a backup choice for them. They've also compared me to jjh too, so I'm like only the third person on the list but they choose me instead.

They're going for the "easy" lynch. Simple as that.

This Game is both Majority and Plurality based.

Basically he's saying because of the wagons and because its plurality (which means whoever had the most votes at the end of day dies)

Since Crimson was at L-2 before me he dies in this situation. But considering there's still some people who might switch I dunno.

Jackson I don't know your plan, but I hope it works out for you.

A summary of your ISO starting from 298:
"Espeonage town"
"Good vote"
"Scum pushing me"
"Siding with Porky good, jjh push weird"
"Neighbor can be scum"
"Crimson L-2 say something"
"Bad neighbor"
"Dayvig fake"
*Snark*
"Dayvig is meme"
"CFD wut"
"Weird name"
"Jake focus on other things"
"Scummiest person hammers"
"Why go after me"
"I claimed Super Saint"
"Why try so hard to get rid of me"
"Why am I scummy"
"Better VCs pls"
"Leave me alone pls"
"I am the easy lynch"
"Crimson dies if L-2 plurality"

Features a lot of:
1. Sheeping reads without affirming independent reason
2. Posts which do not talk about any read, but are just general conversation (while this is not inherently a bad thing, it's bad if it's the only thing)
3. Super Saint threats to get people to back off (targeted at Crimson specifically, I think)
4. Appeals to get people to back off anyway

[Socratés]

N

i

c

e

f

a

k

e

-

v

o

t

e

S

o

c

r

a

t

Hmm? It's a legitimate vote, which moves me to the end of the wagon now.

[Socratés]

Shireen posting nothing is different from Elsa Jay posting nothing.
Crimson is not ridiculously scum; you are wrong.

If Elsa is Super Saint, I get killed on her lynch -- I'm happy to hammer -- so that's a win if I'm scum, yeah?

[Socratés]

You do not believe in evaluating people upon their own merits?

Shireen, for example, is a slot I know will lurk out and post nada as either alignment.
Jay, I know to contribute well.

Thus, Shireen posting jackshit isn't particularly AI for me, whereas Jay posting fluff and doing nothing is.

What is the problem with this logic?

[Socratés]

Aren't all judgments affected by personal experience and egocentric constructs of reality, and correctly so?
How do you know that your perceived construct of reality is the true reality?

[Socratés]

You also haven't gone out your way to list what game I acted differently in so people can fact check it. Just saying "Elsa is different" doesn't mean much when you don't point someone to a specific point of reference.

Sure.
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... ct[]=31936

[Socratés]

This game: Lots of fluff
That game: Solving

That was easy!

[Socratés]

You are welcome to show me a game where you're town and just fluff post, to the extent that you've done here.

[Socratés]

I acknowledge that I am also biased. When I say correctly, I mean justifiably so. I am equally empowered to see what you do not, in symmetry with you.

Saying that I must not believe something because you do not share the same reasoning, while also not disagreeing with my reasoning itself and also not showing that I am unjustified in holding said belief...

[Socratés]

do not share the same reasoning

Conclusions* would be more appropriate.

[Socratés]

I need not explain to you that rain is wet, though you claim it dry.

Which claim of mine is objectively is as false as "Rain is dry"?
1. Elsa is largely fluffposting this game
2. Elsa as town solves more than she has this game

You are welcome to show me a game where you're town and just fluff post, to the extent that you've done here.

There. Happy?

Frankly I shitposted there more.

I see shitposts, but I also see independent thought and solving.
Here I see very little of the latter.

[Socratés]

I do find Elsa Jay fun to play with, although that must not bias me away from lynching her when I do scumread her.

[Socratés]

There you go asking for objectivity again even after admiring its a false concept.

LONG LIVE THE ICE QUEEN

You are the one claiming my belief is not objective, my friend. I am asking for why you think so.

[Socratés]

It's rather funny that you say my belief is unjustified and objectively false, yet I must not question you because I accept there is no true objectivity.

[Socratés]

I still rather not die unnecessarily.

But you would have been taking me down in the process, while thinking I'm scum - why would that be an unnecessary death?

[Socratés]

And that, my dearest town, is why you must fear the mighty Socratés.

[Socratés]

Card and card picks?

[Socratés]

JV is now near locktown.

[Socratés]

I want Elsa Jay to claim their Yu-Gi-Oh card, and the picks for cards that she sent in. If she's fakeclaiming, she will have to come up with these, which is not a trivial process.

[Socratés]

Of course. She is not quoting Moderator PMs, simply telling us what her picks/card is. Since that is unverifiable, it's allowed.

[Socratés]

I don't understand why it would be -ev.

[Socratés]

I would suggest against it, at the moment.

[Socratés]

Unfortunate that Porkens got a "woof" post restriction and not an "Oink" one.

[Socratés]

VOTE: Acryon

[Socratés]

VOTE: jjh927

[Socratés]

{Porkens, jjh420, Acryon}

[Socratés]

VOTE: jjh927

[Socratés]

Piggy robbed my quickhammer. Fie upon you!

[Socratés]

Wouldn't matter. If I understand my role correctly, I think we'll be in mechanical auto once this night passes.

[Socratés]

Where did you all go

Hello, my dear friend.

[Socratés]

Quite funny no one realized my vote was already on jjh's wagon... including the moderator himself.

[Socratés]

Regarding multiball: I was off site during that conversation. I don't think it's multiball.

[Socratés]

Ngl if I'm gonna be mislynched in another game, I'll be glad if it's this one

Not gonna fight this very hard

If you're town you should probably fight here.

Wait why is Jake butting heads with Elsa at all

Elsa should be conftown from Jake's POV

How so? Exactly one of you or Elsa is scum.

Agreed with jjh that this feels odd. You know one of A and B are scum. B is saying A is conftown to them. So B has to be scum for you.

I haven't played a ton of role-madness, but it certainly doesn't

feel

right that a role like Jake's and Elsa's would both exist and be on the same side. And I also don't see jjh as scum here. As Porkens pointed out as well, I'm still not sure why as scum you would ever admit to stealing Elsa's results there.

Jake's play today is very odd to me. Maybe it wouldn't be so different even if he was telling the truth, but it rubs me the wrong way that he basically ignored me yesterday when I pushed him, presumably because he knew there wasn't time for anything to happen to him, but today he seems like he's fighting for his life. And this is such a strong fakeclaim for scum... If we believe him, then we have to follow his lead through a possible two lynches, so as scum he is guaranteeing

two

mislynches.

Isn't the optimal play here for us to lynch Jake? If Jake is lying and we follow him, we risk two mislynches. If he is telling the truth and we lynch him, then he is the only mislynch, because jjh is confscum.

VOTE: Acryon

[Socratés]

Shireen produces 0 content as either alignment, I'm afraid.

[Socratés]

I am a vigilante with conditional kills. I've holstered for the first two nights since my available targets were bad picks, but I think I can kill Shireen tonight.

[Socratés]

I've been saying we should lynch Acryon, no?
He bent over his back trying to explain how lynching Jake was the optimal play, but it was a mechanical 1v1. You could take his post and replace "Jake" with jjh and the same arguments would apply.
His intent was to clearly buy a little more time. There's the appeal to jjh to play townier as well.

Unless I've misinterpreted something about the mechanics?

[Socratés]

Definitely. Hard defenders of scum should generally be lynched; otherwise you give scum leeway to protect their buddies.

[Socratés]

There is more to the scum case on Acryon. Note Aldusskel's case, and my much earlier push on him for scummy over-explanation.

[Socratés]

Then join me on it. I'll try vigging Shireen tonight if I can; if that fails we can PL her tomorrow.

[Socratés]

Socrates setting up a chain-lynch lel

[Socratés]

Uria, Lord of Searing Flames.

[Socratés]

I swear if you get blocked or something I am gonna have heavy suspicions on you

If you were actually serious: you realize I didn't need to do anything to let a Shireen lynch go through, right?

[Socratés]

When it's much easier to just sit back and join the Shireen wagon, and then make a case on Acryon tomorrow and get him lynched.

[Socratés]

Wouldn't Elsa's ability succeed if we're aligned with each other?

[Socratés]

I pick 2 people at night and I compare them. If they're both non fusions it succeeds and 'fuse', but if I cross paths with a fusion monster it fails.

With "a" fusion monster: Elsa, you do mean exactly one should be a fusion monster, yes?
Otherwise it's not really a parity check.

[Socratés]

Woof scum are definitely lurking this is silly. Feels like town is solving and scum is afraid to try.

Astute observation.

[Socratés]

Irony, my dear.

None of us have much to contribute. Vote Acryon.

[Socratés]

If you need guidance on anything particular, you can seek answers from me.

[Socratés]

I can't vig Shireen now, the condition by which I thought I could was "Vig the lowest poster", seems like Oronoko beats her there...

If Acryon flips red I'll choose a different target. If green I'll go Oronoko, unless he and Espeonage can post a few times before day ends so the "least poster vig" hits Shireen.

[Socratés]

Lowest posts for the day, and I dunno - I think it should be the slot.

[Socratés]

If I die, the game should note that I used the last listed condition on N1 and N2.

[Socratés]

If I die, the game should note that I used the last listed condition on N1 and N2.

Will we understand what you did from just this?

Yes. The implications of it should be... interesting.

[Socratés]

If I die, the game should note that I used the last listed condition on N1 and N2.

Please remember to scrutinize my N2 action, especially.

[Socratés]

No, because that would allow for counterplay while I'm still alive.

[Socratés]

Since Acryon's confirmed scum now I won't be shooting either of them, I'll be using my last listed condition once again.

[Socratés]

Sorry for the saltpost, but just a very frustrating game.

You were fine, Acryon. I don't know about balance, but you definitely had bad luck - although I tend to believe that I would have probably lynched you without Elsa's check

Killing here is nothing but positive especially with 3 dead scum already and loads of inactive people. If you think it's better to not, go ahead but yeah

Note that I am not strictly holstering. The last condition is a little unique, and offers me valuable information every night I'm alive.

[Socratés]

If I could offer a tiny bit of advice, you don't need to work too hard to make your posts look genuine in the sense of what town!you would do. There's a lot of flexibility in how strong you can portray your reads and still look natural. When I asked about why Beeboy was town you could've just gone "eh, gut, he feels natural, not even sure" and it would've been fine.

See you in future games!

[Socratés]

I claim the Oronoko kill.

[Socratés]

Targeted least poster, got a choice between Oronoko and Esp I think, picked the first.

[Socratés]

No one gets past the mighty Socrates.

[Socratés]

Imagine 5 scum in a 13p yet there's like 6 townies alive still. Whut is our luck.

It's me. You're welcome, Elsa Jay.

[Socratés]

Socrates of everyone left who do you think is the last scum? And I say last because Oronokos flip inplies a duo just like the Cursed Cards. So.

Seems like there'd be only one "bad card" remaining, so if your result is accurate then Jackson and Shireen should be cleared?

maxwell, explain motivations behind targeting Elsa?

[Socratés]

Your the last scum? Whut?

"Its not luck, it's me"

[Socratés]

Something feels off.
Elsa Jay, can you please summarize the current shared mechanical knowledge the game has?
I will be grateful.

[Socratés]

I cannot choose freely who to kill; I only have a choice between different conditions, one of them being "least poster".
I may be responsible for the Beeboy kill as well.
Given Elsa Jay's result, I do not think killing Shireen is correct.

[Socratés]

One of my other conditions is that I can kill the last person to vote on the lynch wagon. So, if you want a deterministic shot that is not Shireen, have them be the hammer vote.
Second scummiest person hammers the scummiest person. I kill the second scummiest person overnight.

[Socratés]

Good game, friends.

[Socratés]

Game had 8 town and 5 Non town. Yet somehow town ended the game with 6 alive.

We wrecked this game.

Yes, although I am not certain about the role that luck played for us.

[Socratés]

Moderator, was I indeed responsible for the Beeboy kill?

The condition I used for three successive nights was to kill a random player visiting me.

[Socratés]

I must also mention that you lot were a pleasure to play with. Thank you.