Newbie 2010: Pride Month | Game Over

[gibus]

Interesting, note that we have votes on (1), (5), and (9)

AP

Such clever orchestration comes from scum so VOTE: piisirrational

[gibus]

Sup Elmo, guess I can't bother you with PMs anymore

Questions for everyone:

• What's your alignment
  
• Can you guess my alignment

[gibus]

• Is gibus scum?

Maybe

[gibus]

Good game guys

[gibus]

Would you look at who it is. Do you always try and form big wagons early, Umlaut?

VOTE: Umlaut

Is that you, Hoctac?

[gibus]

I'm like 95% sure it is, but Hoctac trained me not to believe anything he said.

No Flavour allowed?

[gibus]

Just come out and tell us who your buddy is, gibus. Or we could do it the hard way.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: gibus

VOTE: gibus
Bigger wagons are nicer.

I'm curious about the newbies' past experience with Mafia here. Is this your first game? Did you play on another site first? Have you already played a game with anyone else in this one?

Hmmm one of them are scum...

What do you find in post 26 that is scummy? To me, it looks like they're agreeing with you that gibus made a post that was a scumclaim.

Post 27, on the other hand, is pretty scummy. The reasoning of simply wanting "a bigger wagon" seems opportunistic.

VOTE: Umlaut

What do you get out of having big wagons forming early on the game as town? What are your thoughts on the current wagons?

Opportunistic

is a buzzword.
Scumreading NAI stuff is AI.

Are you scum? VOTE: pieisirrational

What did I say. I never joke ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

You dropped your hat: _/¯\_

I'll take that, roke.
_/¯\_
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

[gibus]

@gibus: Why do you think the votes placed on you are not opportunistic and NAI? To me, the fact that you got three votes in such a short span of time for the same post is what felt opportunistic combined with Umlaut's switching of votes. If it's for any reason other than RVS, I would like to know.

You misunderstood. How would you distinguish an

opportunistic

vote (L-2 or L-1) from one that isn't? I don't see the line, so I called it a buzzword (scumtell to me).
Also, you should outline how the action is AI (76). Asking me why I find it NAI looks evasive.

I'll take that, roke.
_/¯\_
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

OI

Alright, fine. You can have your boot back if you return the hat:

| \__
|___|

Nani? You stole my boot? Looks like I've been Hectricked.
I'll keep both, thank you very much.

Spoiler:

__/¯\__
ᕦ( ͡ಠ ʖ̯ ͡ಠ)ᕤ

__/ | | \__
|___| |___|

[gibus]

I feel better about pie (89 and the meta reads 90, 91).
I like Umlaut and GG's exchange here. Townreading both (Umlaut to a greater extent).

Snow and Elmo can't be scum together. Leaning town on Snow.

@Raya, how did your read on pie progress?

[gibus]

PT

[gibus]

I read Elmo's 1989 scum game and 2000 town game and noticed that town!AzN was aggressive with their votes (mobile) similar to their play here, while scum!AzN was much more static.
Does this hold any significance?

[gibus]

Raya, do you have any scumreads?

[gibus]

Raya, how many nullreads do you have

[gibus]

Raya, your scumread on GG doesn't sit well with me (bad faith, like Hectic says).

If I didn't get this wrong, the reason is that they have quite a few scumreads, which is likelier to come from scum to keep their options open, or to look busy without making any committed reads?
I'm curious to see how GG will respond to this, but doesn't this apply better to someone who has quite a few nullreads?

VOTE: Raya36

Also, what's the significance of 36 in your username?

[gibus]

Didn't mean to bump my last post, what does that do anyway?

[gibus]

The 36 is simply just my favourite number from when I was super young

Cool

[gibus]

You have a point about null reads but I think that applies much later on the game rather than 6 pages in. A lot of null reads this early is normal. A lot of scumreads this early doesn't sit well with me.

To clarify: I'm scumreading you because of your SR, not because you have a lot of nullreads.

[gibus]

You have a point about null reads but I think that applies much later on the game rather than 6 pages in. A lot of null reads this early is normal. A lot of scumreads this early doesn't sit well with me.

To clarify: I'm scumreading you because of your SR, not because you have a lot of nullreads.

Explain? This doesn't make sense. Raya's explanation of why she finds Ghost scummy ("I honestly think Ghost's list of scumreads was setting up mislynches and if any gained traction he would push that one." and how she disagreed with Ghost's suggestion of a policy lynch) is perfectly valid and I don't see any scum motivation here for Raya to push Ghost.

The way I see it, pointing out borderline scumminess from various people with the intention of furthering discussion, and getting more opinions and reactions (as stated by GG) is a pretty helpful thing to do. The post itself looks like a genuine response to #53, and I agree with most of the points. It seems insincere to me that GG's primitive opinions were perceived as full fledged scumreads to get textbook scumtell (which I don't get, is narrowing down scum (those who gain

traction

) from a large pool of players not an acceptable way of scumhunting?)

[gibus]

I'm not sure about my town lean on Snow anymore.

[gibus]

(In response to your next post, I am most definitely town or scum)

Sounds like a serial killer

[gibus]

What's making you change your mind on Snow?

Slight town lean on Raya, because I don’t really see scum deciding to go after Ghost here.

This. I don't know where the town lean is coming from.

[gibus]

Do you think scum would force a town read on me?

I don't know, but in Snow's case it doesn't match her paranoid tone (56,90)

[gibus]

Wut

Snowblaze is confirmed scum for stealing my pagetop

[gibus]

Tstbs - Too scummy to be scum

[gibus]

99: Hey, gibus. How'd you know Homura was applying a meta read on turtle in 91? Was it because of this post?

I didn't. Why?

[gibus]

99: Hey, gibus. How'd you know Homura was applying a meta read on turtle in 91? Was it because of this post?

I didn't. Why?

You suggested it was a meta read in 99.

My bad, the link took me to post 89, so I was confused.
Homura said they played with pie before, so 91 was a meta read

[gibus]

ebwop
Homura, Snow and pi were in the same game before, so I assumed it was a meta read

[gibus]

Elmo where are you

[gibus]

Raya, do you have any scumreads?

ghost as my scumread right now. Pi is my strongest townread as well.

Which reminds me I should do this:
VOTE: Ghost

This vote on my slot would be a ballsy move for scum considering that at this point my slot from the perspective of the scum team was already being townread/seemed like a slot that would obv quickly.

From the perspective of scum, scumreading a top townread is a viable option to keep town disorganised. It maybe a ballsy move to do as scum, but that can't be a reason to townread an experienced player IMO.

[gibus]

M2H, why is Homura in your towncore?

[gibus]

I don't get 289, gibus. Scumreading a top town attracts a lot of unwarranted attention. Where have you seen scum do this before as a strategy?

I was talking about this game in particular, not a general thing.
Where else can scum try to shoot at?

[gibus]

Hello Nauci

I'll be extra cautious about you this time lol

[gibus]

Why this game specifically, gibus?

Most of the slots have very little information to scumread, so I thought scum would try to do that to weaken PoE.

[gibus]

UNVOTE: Raya36
I'm most probably wrong about Raya I guess.

Preferably I'd vote in {Hectic, Homura}

[gibus]

I don't think I ever scumread Elmo. I'm getting town pings from your posts and I like your explanation for Elmo's actions.

I initially disagreed with Snow's read on Raya but I realised it would have been a bad trade off to be scum motivated. That's why I flip flopped on their slot.

[gibus]

I don't think Scumlaut would hop on three different major wagons knowing that wagon analysis is a hot topic. That's part of why I'm townreading him

[gibus]

But you still didn't explain why those 2 players are your preferred votes

And if they are your preferred votes, why don't you vote there

I feel good about the rest of the playerlist.
VOTE: Hectic

[gibus]

@gibus: why Hectic over Homura there? Is it just because Hectic already has a vote?

I'm reasonable sure Elmo was scum. Her alt is Red Panda, and she was relatively active on there while she completely lurked it out here after we started accusing her.

This doesn't feel right. Elmo was relatively active in their scum games (the ones I've seen at least, Red Panda's 2007 included) and they lurked before the wagon was even formed on them. There is a line between unmotivated!Elmo and scum!Elmo doing this, and I'm pretty sure it's the former. It looks like a bad faith push.

I'm curious to see how Homura's reads will progress after D1 since there isn't much in their ISO, I prefer Hectic right now.

[gibus]

I'm starting to lean towards a possible scum!gibus

Why?

[gibus]

Oh. By wagon analysis I meant someone pointing that out as "wagon shopping", which I thought Scumlaut would be wary of. But I see what you mean

[gibus]

I thought I was mostly wrong about you because it didn't gain any traction. Why is that scummy?

[gibus]

I thought I was mostly wrong about you because it didn't gain any traction. Why is that scummy?

Why does that mean you were wrong on Raya?

I don't think I ever scumread Elmo. I'm getting town pings from your posts and I like your explanation for Elmo's actions.

I initially disagreed with Snow's read on Raya but I realised it would have been a bad trade off to be scum motivated. That's why I flip flopped on their slot.

This doesn't make sense. You're flipflopping on Raya's slot because you feel that someone who's townreading them is now town instead of scum? Feels like you should be flipflopping on someone under the consideration of their own posts, not based on who's townreading them.

No, I flip flopped when I realised there was no strong reason for that push to be scum motivated (why would scum go for GG). I thought of a few reasons for why scum would do that, but the majority of the playerlist didn't think they were practical, which made me reconsider my read.

I thought I was mostly wrong about you because it didn't gain any traction. Why is that scummy?

Because you pushed me and when it didn't gain any traction you hopped off. That's not how town plays. Town keeps pressuring until they actually think the person they thought was scum is town.

I don't agree with your logic. Why is that not how town plays? Why don't town reconsider their reads based on existing TR reasons and SR reasons?

Gibus, this isn't a particularly new or unconventional tell. It's the classic elitell. If a player is in multiple games and is active in all of them except for 1, that game is usually their scum game. It's surprisingly effective. I don't like how you're trying to frame that as a bad faith push.

You're saying she could just be unmotivated but that's the point of the tell, in general people like playing scum less and have less energy for it.

I want to vote in [gibus, Nauci].

That was quick. Are we both bad faith pushing each other?
In a game I played (NEWB 2004), a scummer scumread a player for lurking and being unmotivated unlike their other ongoing games, where they were active. That's probably why I'm biased to think this was a bad faith push. Although I'm certain this is what scum would go for.

Hn
Aya
Swan
Icuna
Norati
Amu
Talum
Busi

Is it really this again, Busi? Would you try to lynch me day 1 after last game? I think you're more likely to do it as scum than town if given the opportunity. That's my worry.

Even if I was scum and you were town, there's a difference between the two games. I was your top scumread in that game, whereas I was average (220, 248) here. Do you really think that scum!gibus would pick town!you knowing fully well that town!you is strong enough to end the game in two days instead of trying to climb up in your readlist and consider killing you N1? I think you're being insincere.

[gibus]

In a game I played (NEWB 2004), a scummer scumread a player for lurking and being unmotivated unlike their other ongoing games, where they were active. That's probably why I'm biased to think this was a bad faith push. Although I'm certain this is what scum would go for.

When are you referencing here? I don't specifically remember this happening I guess

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p11830569
I think I subconsciously tied not developing reads to lurking with votato's drop in activity in that game. Still, I'm not bad faith pushing Hectic.

[gibus]

In a game I played (NEWB 2004), a scummer scumread a player for lurking and being unmotivated unlike their other ongoing games, where they were active. That's probably why I'm biased to think this was a bad faith push. Although I'm certain this is what scum would go for.

When are you referencing here? I don't specifically remember this happening I guess

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p11830569
I think I subconsciously tied not developing reads to lurking with votato's drop in activity in that game. Still, I'm not bad faith pushing Hectic.

I don't understand. Lilith didn't mention votato being active in other games anywhere as far as I can tell?

Yes, she didn't. But votato WAS active in other games, even though he was town there.
I'm trying to say scum lilith took advantage of town votato's drop in activity and lack of motivation to develop a read.

[gibus]

Are you using that example to say that inactivity is not an indication of scumminess and therefore you town read Elmo, or that, in addition to this, it's a reason to scumread Hectic for relying on it in his Elmo case?

Neither, I'm responding to 357, saying I'm not bad faith pushing

[gibus]

That's probably why I'm biased to think this was a bad faith push. Although I'm certain this is what scum would go for.

[gibus]

So... you're explaining why you thought it was a bad faith push?

Do you still think it is?

No lol.
I'm explaining why Hectic's case on me isn't true, I'm not bad faith pushing.
But yes, I still think Hectic is scum

[gibus]

Endometriosis is killing me right now and all I want to do is pop some meds and head to bed but I'm staying up trying to solve this game before deadline lol

Please hurry up with the responses already kthxbai

Oh right, I was taking a shower. I'm here

Raya, do you have any scumreads?

ghost as my scumread right now. Pi is my strongest townread as well.

Which reminds me I should do this:
VOTE: Ghost

This vote on my slot would be a ballsy move for scum considering that at this point my slot from the perspective of the scum team was already being townread/seemed like a slot that would obv quickly.

From the perspective of scum, scumreading a top townread is a viable option to keep town disorganised. It maybe a ballsy move to do as scum, but that can't be a reason to townread an experienced player IMO.

I don't get 289, gibus. Scumreading a top town attracts a lot of unwarranted attention. Where have you seen scum do this before as a strategy?

I was talking about this game in particular, not a general thing.
Where else can scum try to shoot at?

Gibus, regardless of the fact that you changed your mind, I want to know what you were thinking at the time when you made these posts.

Why did you say that your point about keeping town disorganized applied to this game in particular?

I was thinking about scenarios where scum could go after GG, in contrast to Snow's thought.
I haven't played a lot of games so I don't know if it's a general thing. But I thought it can apply to this game since it was a low information lurkfest without a town leader (GG was close, which is bad for scum).

Outside of that interaction with Hectic, why do you think he's scum?

I feel good about the other slots.
I don't think motivation is AI, certainly not 2 pages into the game (in Elmo's case at least), Elmo is pretty active as scum and that's something Hectic didn't take into account. I believe that this is most probably a bad faith push. I don't like how he hops onto my wagon just because I think he's scum. 360 also gives me scum pings.

[gibus]

I definitely prefer lynching gibus to Hectic at this point. I feel like there's something that can be worked out from the speed at which both of these wagons were built up, but I'm not sure what it is, at least not yet.

Anyway, it's probably close enough to deadline that I should be doing this: VOTE: gibus, L-1.

Why though?
I'm not sure why I'm being scumread right now.

[gibus]

@Nauci, @Hectic, in response to 402, the thought may have come from here. Polandball was similar in terms of activity and not having a town leader.

[gibus]

also gives me scum pings.

Can you tell me what that post means because I couldn't decipher it and thought it was just another trolly one

Hectic told me not to reveal that. But it isn't that which gives me the pings, it's the line below.

[gibus]

If you're referring to the gibberish, that's not what I'm talking about

I mean the substance of that post

First, I just figured out like 20 minutes ago that he's talking about you when he says Busi, but I still don't know what he's talking about wrt your previous have and therefore don't understand the inferences than drawn from it. Can you tl;Dr that for me?

This was the previous game. I was scum and Hectic nailed the scum team down in D1.
But the line does not hold true (389).

[gibus]

OK

I'm a VT

[gibus]

Isn't M2H cleared? Wouldn't making a NK be considered as a response?
VOTE: Piisirrational

[gibus]

If Snow is an investigative role, they should consider posting the results I guess?

[gibus]

If it's A1, doc should obviously keep protecting Snow.
And scum should forfeit.

HAMMER

VOTE: piisirrational

[gibus]

Town has exactly 80% chance of winning

[gibus]

Good game!

If PoE didn't narrow it down to just her she probably would've survived at least another day

If Hectic hadn't lurched us from Gibus to Umlaut, I wouldn't have suspected her until Umlaut died or it was Day 3 or 4, I'm guessing

Yeah, the twist was amazing.
Hectic you've done it again wow