Newbie 2010: Pride Month | Game Over

[Ghost Ganster]

Good luck and have fun, everyone!

I'm new here and haven't played a mafia game in years, but I've been reading up on the suggested material linked by our host.

VOTE: Snowblaze

When in Rome, random lynch as the Romans do.

[Ghost Ganster]

Just come out and tell us who your buddy is, gibus. Or we could do it the hard way.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: gibus

[Ghost Ganster]

I'm curious about the newbies' past experience with Mafia here. Is this your first game? Did you play on another site first? Have you already played a game with anyone else in this one?

I played somewhat frequently for a while, a few years ago, on another site where mafia was more serious business than here. Or maybe it's just that the days were shorter so the levity lasted less by necessity? Either way, I'm still getting used to all the jokes, the in-site references and such. That was a one-way-ticket to lynch-town where I used to play! XD

Welcome, Hectic! I would ask you questions and clarifications about your posts (they're confusing to me, sorry), but I don't know if I could take it if you just trolled me back!

[Ghost Ganster]

Thank you! How about I only promise to troll on even posts? Odd posts will be completely, utterly, deadly serious.

What site do you come from, and do you think anything alignment-indicative has happened so far?

I'd rather not say what site, sorry. It's not for mafia-related reasons, though.

As for alignment-indicative things (and I'll list some things that are very borderline, here, just to further discussion, get more opinions and reactions):

-Umlaut's voting, mirroring and immediately following mine twice, looks so fishy that they actually feel like town (like "scum wouldn't do this", which is a faulty assumption, but you get where I'm coming from, I think).

-I'm generally wary of statements of facts that in actuality are opinions, so #30 (Elmo's post), looks slightly scummy, even if it's a joke (which is not clear to me).

-Raya answering your question about the most efficient way of "consuming" time as town, and then not doing it, basically at all, is slightly scummy as well.

-Your inside joking/weird hinting/trolling makes me very paranoid that I'm just not gonna be able to get a read on you and/or that I'll get annoyed at you, which will affect my opinion of you in an unhelpful way. I think being useful and cooperative is a good town trait, and in the vast majority of cases, not being so is either scummy or just good for scum.

-Snowblaze having exactly zero reads... I wouldn't say it's necessarily indicative of an alignment, but once again it's unhelpful, so it does raise my suspicions. I'm of the opinion that having bad reads (whatever "bad" means) is better than having none, so I personally would

force

myself to get some (if you get what I mean) in her shoes. Thankfully I'm paranoid enough that it's never going to happen, most likely. XD

-Elmo's following post was scummy as well. Not the vote itself, but the lack of an explanation and especially the one-liner used ("You can't make Lylo"), which I find very weird to say at this stage of the game.

-Your post, #68, is helpful but worded scummily, or at least the lack of an acknowledgement that you and Umlaut could both be scum is.

-Elmo's post, #69, gives me town vibes. I'm not sure I agree with it (unless here scum often makes very early hammers happen and gets away with it later?), but it's something that's worth noting in general and in a newbie game especially, and I don't think scum would do it. I feel that he could have found/bullshitted other reasons to explain his vote on Snowblaze in that case.

-Elmo's posts #78 and #79, go back to irk me, simply because I would say the wagon

was

still random voting, because at the end of the day it was based on gibus' scumclaim joke. Maybe we just have a different definition of it, though? I would be interested in knowing. Personally, I would equate random voting with "baseless", and I would include joke-votes under "baseless" as well. Am I off here?

-Raya's questions and especially the prod to get an answer (so mainly post #82) gives me a town vibe.

-Tonally, everything piisirrational in this last page feels like scum. I can't really put my finger on why, or at least, I don't know how exactly to explain it. Ironically enough, I think it's something about the need to explain, over-explain or needlessly explain (and not making a great job of it).

-It can be a bit dangerous to get a town read from a post simply because you totally agree with it, but that's what's happened when I read Umlaut's post just now.

I'm curious about the newbies' past experience with Mafia here. Is this your first game? Did you play on another site first? Have you already played a game with anyone else in this one?

I played somewhat frequently for a while, a few years ago, on another site where mafia was more serious business than here. Or maybe it's just that the days were shorter so the levity lasted less by necessity? Either way, I'm still getting used to all the jokes, the in-site references and such. That was a one-way-ticket to lynch-town where I used to play! XD

Would you consider any of the joking to be AI in this game so far?

I answer this a little above, but to add something perhaps more precise, I'd say that hinting and muddying the waters is a surprisingly effective scum strategy, in my experience (it works in real life too! ).

[Ghost Ganster]

What's the general policy for and/or reaction to lurking, here?

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Homura

Her posts have no content except for #91, which

hardly

counts. I don't mind lynching barely active players at all because I'd hate lose to lurker scum, and even just threatening to lynch a lurker, perhaps with a wagon, often pushes them (and sometimes others) into posting more, which is actually needed to get any kind of read on them. Plus, day 1 lynches tend to be a crapshoot anyway.

As of now, my preferred order for lynching would be something like Snowblaze, Elmo, piisirrational, gibus, Hectic, Raya, Umlaut.

[Ghost Ganster]

@Ghost Ganster: Homura has been relatively inactive as town in previous games.

This is likely not going to be popular, but I don't care too much if they're town. Giving lurkers a pass is bad, in my opinion, even if meta is at play. It's just too good for scum.

She has yet to even vote, randomly or not.

@Homura, what are your scum-reads? Do consider using your vote as well, please.

[Ghost Ganster]

@Ghost Ganster:

Could you explain why you want me dead? And why you think Umlaut is town?

Can you answer this please? And why didn't you answer when responding to my point about Homura earlier?

Fixed the quote - MOD

Sorry about that. I read that and thought it was meant for one of the people making a case against and voting for you.
I listed you as one of my preferred lynches because of your lack of reads, pressuring and scum-hunting, and related attitude. Basically, it's very possible you're scum, but even if you're not, your play thus far would make your mislynch not as bad as most others' would be, in my eyes.

I hope this doesn't offend you, as that's not my intention. I'd just like you (and everyone else) to be more proactive and useful.

As for Umlaut, he's the one I got the most town tells on, and perhaps more importantly at this point in time, a similar opinion as, like I explained in my earlier post.

@Ghost Ganster: Homura has been relatively inactive as town in previous games.

This is likely not going to be popular, but I don't care too much if they're town. Giving lurkers a pass is bad, in my opinion, even if meta is at play. It's just too good for scum.

She has yet to even vote, randomly or not.

@Homura, what are your scum-reads? Do consider using your vote as well, please.

So do you consider lurkers as policy lynches?

Can you explain what "policy lynches" means, sorry?

This is likely not going to be popular, but I don't care too much if they're town. Giving lurkers a pass is bad, in my opinion, even if meta is at play. It's just too good for scum.

She has yet to even vote, randomly or not.

@Homura, what are your scum-reads? Do consider using your vote as well, please.

EBWOP —

Feel one of Snow and Elmo is scum. pi and Umlaut likely town. Your reasoning about me is ill-formed but not necessarily scum-indicative.

What makes you say... basically all of that?
-Why do you feel one of Snow and Elmo is scum? Why aren't you voting for one of them? Why aren't you doing something to see if you can clarify your either/or opinion of them with questions, pressure and such?
-Why are piisirrational and Umlaut likely town?
-Why do you think my reasoning about you is ill-informed and non necessarily scum-indicative?

[Ghost Ganster]

@Ghost Ganster: Policy lynches are those lynches where one doesn't necessarily think that someone is scum, but wants to lynch the person because they think that their play will hurt the town later on.

I thought so, but I thought I had already made it clear in post #102, which was the one Raya quoted when she asked me that.

What makes you say... basically all of that?
-Why do you feel one of Snow and Elmo is scum? Why aren't you voting for one of them? Why aren't you doing something to see if you can clarify your either/or opinion of them with questions, pressure and such?
-Why are piisirrational and Umlaut likely town?
-Why do you think my reasoning about you is ill-informed and non necessarily scum-indicative?

You'll be disappointed if you expected a full-length analysis of my reads at this point of the game. My reads are mainly tone so far.

Could you explain how "one of Snow and Elmo is scum" could be based on tone, please? Also, would you consider at least mentioning/quoting the posts that tonally gave you those reads (and the town ones), or even just the main one for each?

And could you answer the questions "Why aren't you voting for one of them? Why aren't you doing something to see if you can clarify your either/or opinion of them with questions, pressure and such?"?

Your reasoning is ill-formed because you advocated for a policy lynch on a player you labelled a lurker despite the game having gained little tread. Unless you pushed me as a reaction test (which, based on my gauge of your play in this game so far, I think is unlikely), your reasons for wanting to lynch me stem more frequently from newbtown wanting something to push. That's why I didn't think you're scum.

I dislike the style of interrogation you took with this post, however. The rapid-fire questioning feels unsubtle.

I'm sorry you dislike it, but I wasn't trying to be subtle. And gauging your reaction was part of it (like it is for most votes and many other kinds of things), but I mainly pushed you as I would any lurker/no content player, as well as asked you questions, in the hope that you would post more concrete thoughts from which A) everyone could perhaps get an actual read on you, and B) everyone could gain insights about the other players and the game based on your own insights. I hope you see how that would be helpful.

[Ghost Ganster]

Raya, your scumread on GG doesn't sit well with me (bad faith, like Hectic says).

If I didn't get this wrong, the reason is that they have quite a few scumreads, which is likelier to come from scum to keep their options open, or to look busy without making any committed reads?
I'm curious to see how GG will respond to this, but doesn't this apply better to someone who has quite a few nullreads?

It looks to me like Raya is misinterpreting so many things that I'm left to wonder how much of that is artificial.

It's concerning that you have reasons to scumread nearly everyone on the playerlist

Where are you seeing "scumread nearly everyone" from? Post seems like general thoughtposting with both town and scum reads.

If you list all the players with a reason towards being scum (or unhelpful) you get:
Elmo
Raya
Hectic
Snowblaze
Piisirrrational

That's 5/8 players that Homura has to get a read on.
(There were some town points for some of the list too but it's still concerning since scum can do this to keep their options open or to look busy without making any committed reads)

First, the list came from a question about alignment-indicative things, which is not at all the same as scumreads. Second, unhelpful doesn't equal scum, and you had to specify it yourself so you know this as well, so your initial concern of me having too many scumreads should already be moot, and your list should go from 5 to 3 players (Elmo, Raya and piisirrational). Finally, like you mentioned as well, there were town points for 2 of those 3 as well in my list (Elmo and Raya) and this is in fact reflected in my later list of preferred lynches.

What do you mean with "that Homura has to get a read on"? How was she relevant in this?

Thank you! How about I only promise to troll on even posts? Odd posts will be completely, utterly, deadly serious.

What site do you come from, and do you think anything alignment-indicative has happened so far?

I'd rather not say what site, sorry. It's not for mafia-related reasons, though.

As for alignment-indicative things (and I'll list some things that are very borderline, here, just to further discussion, get more opinions and reactions):

-Umlaut's voting, mirroring and immediately following mine twice, looks so fishy that they actually feel like town (like "scum wouldn't do this", which is a faulty assumption, but you get where I'm coming from, I think).

-I'm generally wary of statements of facts that in actuality are opinions, so #30 (Elmo's post), looks slightly scummy, even if it's a joke (which is not clear to me).

-Raya answering your question about the most efficient way of "consuming" time as town, and then not doing it, basically at all, is slightly scummy as well.

-Your inside joking/weird hinting/trolling makes me very paranoid that I'm just not gonna be able to get a read on you and/or that I'll get annoyed at you, which will affect my opinion of you in an unhelpful way. I think being useful and cooperative is a good town trait, and in the vast majority of cases, not being so is either scummy or just good for scum.

-Snowblaze having exactly zero reads... I wouldn't say it's necessarily indicative of an alignment, but once again it's unhelpful, so it does raise my suspicions. I'm of the opinion that having bad reads (whatever "bad" means) is better than having none, so I personally would

force

myself to get some (if you get what I mean) in her shoes. Thankfully I'm paranoid enough that it's never going to happen, most likely. XD

-Elmo's following post was scummy as well. Not the vote itself, but the lack of an explanation and especially the one-liner used ("You can't make Lylo"), which I find very weird to say at this stage of the game.

-Your post, #68, is helpful but worded scummily, or at least the lack of an acknowledgement that you and Umlaut could both be scum is.

-Elmo's post, #69, gives me town vibes. I'm not sure I agree with it (unless here scum often makes very early hammers happen and gets away with it later?), but it's something that's worth noting in general and in a newbie game especially, and I don't think scum would do it. I feel that he could have found/bullshitted other reasons to explain his vote on Snowblaze in that case.

-Elmo's posts #78 and #79, go back to irk me, simply because I would say the wagon

was

still random voting, because at the end of the day it was based on gibus' scumclaim joke. Maybe we just have a different definition of it, though? I would be interested in knowing. Personally, I would equate random voting with "baseless", and I would include joke-votes under "baseless" as well. Am I off here?

-Raya's questions and especially the prod to get an answer (so mainly post #82) gives me a town vibe.

-Tonally, everything piisirrational in this last page feels like scum. I can't really put my finger on why, or at least, I don't know how exactly to explain it. Ironically enough, I think it's something about the need to explain, over-explain or needlessly explain (and not making a great job of it).

-It can be a bit dangerous to get a town read from a post simply because you totally agree with it, but that's what's happened when I read Umlaut's post just now.

I'm curious about the newbies' past experience with Mafia here. Is this your first game? Did you play on another site first? Have you already played a game with anyone else in this one?

I played somewhat frequently for a while, a few years ago, on another site where mafia was more serious business than here. Or maybe it's just that the days were shorter so the levity lasted less by necessity? Either way, I'm still getting used to all the jokes, the in-site references and such. That was a one-way-ticket to lynch-town where I used to play! XD

Would you consider any of the joking to be AI in this game so far?

I answer this a little above, but to add something perhaps more precise, I'd say that hinting and muddying the waters is a surprisingly effective scum strategy, in my experience (it works in real life too! ).

It's concerning that you have reasons to scumread nearly everyone on the playerlist

I don't get why this is concerning. Can you explain? To me, it looks like Ghost is just commenting on anything he finds to be AI. Just because someone does something scummy does not mean they're scum, because just everyone, regardless of their alignment, does scummy things. If there's things Ghost finds to be especially towny he's noting that as well. That post looks like Ghost is finding things other people are doing that are scummy/towny, but it doesn't look like he's actively forcing those explanations to scumread people, and I don't think he's actually scumreading over half of the playerlist.

This is a very town response. If Pi was scum I would expect them to either agree with me and scumread ghost or disagree with me and scumread me for pushing ghost or something. Instead Pi says that while something may appear scummy it doesn't mean the player is scum. This is a very towny outlook and with no scum agenda being pushed.

I already explained a bit a few posts up but essentially I'm worried that ghost is either trying to look busy without taking a solid stance on anyone or they're starting to set-up mislynches and keeping their options open.

This seems like it contradicts itself in a way. You say scum!piisirrational would have more likely agreed with your and scumread me or disagreed with you and scumread you, instead of writing what they did, which would make that post a candidate for "looking busy without taking a solid stance on anyone", which is then (essentially) the reason you're voting for me. Also how do you still post this,

You have a point about null reads but I think that applies much later on the game rather than 6 pages in. A lot of null reads this early is normal. A lot of scumreads this early doesn't sit well with me.

after liking piisirrational post, which comments on how my list was of AI-things and not scumreads and that scummy things can be found in town players as well?

Most importantly though, Raya, instead of "being wary" (which is conveniently vague) of that list of mine, why don't you go over its points and tell us what you think about them specifically? Even if it's just "this doesn't make sense to me", "this is scummy" or "this I could agree with", wouldn't that be so much more useful for everyone than just stopping at suspecting the whole thing?

[Ghost Ganster]

Could you explain how "one of Snow and Elmo is scum" could be based on tone, please? Also, would you consider at least mentioning/quoting the posts that tonally gave you those reads (and the town ones), or even just the main one for each?

And could you answer the questions "Why aren't you voting for one of them? Why aren't you doing something to see if you can clarify your either/or opinion of them with questions, pressure and such?"?

For Snow, I feel like she's taking a more cheery, airy tone with her posts that I find a little off-putting. Don't know what to think about the implication that she took for granted I'm town. I have also consistently misread her in our games, so slight paranoia plays a role as well.

Elmo's ISO in general feels like a collection of bad-faith pushes on players — don't enjoy her misconstruing Snow's post as overly defensive.

WRT to the second bit — my play has lessened in proactiveness since the quarantine. I tend to keep my cards close to my chest nowadays, because I lack the energy for thinking up questions that I can analyze critically. Consider this an excuse if you wish.

Okay, but did you consider that other players can analyze the answers to your questions anyway? You don't even necessarily have to be the one doing the analyzing (though that's always good). This is a team game. If you're town, you should be playing to help yourself

and

your teammates. So even if you can't follow up, asking questions, adding pressure, voting people, is always helpful.

Surely if my tone is different to previous games when I was scum it should imply that I’m

not

scum.

The fact you were scum in your game together wasn't in Homura's post. If it's true, then your point is very valid, the omission is scummy in itself, and her explanation for listing you as possible scum loses whatever little basis it already had (I'm not a huge fan of meta).

I want to townread Hectic on the grounds that I agree with a lot of his thoughts so far, but for some reason he seems to be attracting all of my paranoia this game.

Could you quote/link the thoughts you agree with?

@Ghost Ganster: do you think my lack of reads makes me more likely than average to be scum? And if so, why aren’t you voting for me?

Yes and, at the time, because I preferred lynching Homura.

[Ghost Ganster]

@Ghost: ...so you preferred lynching Homura to me, and yet Homura was absent from your list of preferred lynches which you made in the same post as voting for Homura?

Ah, now I get the misunderstanding. Homura was the only player missing from the list exactly because she had my vote, which basically implies she was at the top of it, otherwise I wouldn't have voted for her.

If you list all the players with a reason towards being scum (or unhelpful) you get:
Elmo
Raya
Hectic
Snowblaze
Piisirrrational

That's 5/8 players that Homura has to get a read on.
(There were some town points for some of the list too but it's still concerning since scum can do this to keep their options open or to look busy without making any committed reads)

You were referring to Ghost here?

Yes

So you're saying that it was a typo and the sentence should have read "That's 5/8 players that Ghost has to get a read on", right? I still don't understand it. And what you later say to explain it, so this,

I'm just starting that there are 8 players total for you to get a read on so its ?/8 people you scumread.

doesn't make sense, either, unless I'm being stupid (which could be, sorry).

Raya, thoughts on Ghost's push on me?

It's pretty bad to push a policy lynch on a lurker 5 pages into a game. The game has barely even started. I honestly think Ghost's list of scumreads was setting up mislynches and if any gained traction he would push that one.

First, it's lynch-voting, which I explained in the post in which I did it, is also a great way to pressure the lurker in question to stop lurking and being more active. But even ignoring the fact we disagree on the premise, how do you explain that I didn't push another, then? Elmo's, for example?

First, the list came from a question about alignment-indicative things, which is not at all the same as scumreads. Second, unhelpful doesn't equal scum, and you had to specify it yourself so you know this as well, so your initial concern of me having too many scumreads should already be moot, and your list should go from 5 to 3 players (Elmo, Raya and piisirrational). Finally, like you mentioned as well, there were town points for 2 of those 3 as well in my list (Elmo and Raya) and this is in fact reflected in my later list of preferred lynches.

What do you mean with "that Homura has to get a read on"? How was she relevant in this?

1. I use the word scumread since they're all reasons towards a scumread. I don't mean to imply that you scumread them. They're reasons to scumread.
2. I included unhelpful because to my understanding you're using that as a reason to lynch players as well.
3. I explained why I'm still concerned about that. It's an easy way for scum to look busy without taking a stance.

Ok. So with point 1 you're saying that having "3 reasons towards a scumread" was too many at that point in time?
And with 3, is it really? Basically the options seem to be:
1) give scum/townreads for all players
2) give scum/townreads for the majority of players
3) give scum/townreads for the minority of players
4) give scum/townreads for 1 player
5) don't give scum/townreads
How would you rank them based on most to least concerning? And I did take a stance, and even made a list of preferred lynches. Isn't that taking

more

of a stance than most if not all other players?

This seems like it contradicts itself in a way. You say scum!piisirrational would have more likely agreed with your and scumread me or disagreed with you and scumread you, instead of writing what they did, which would make that post a candidate for "looking busy without taking a solid stance on anyone", which is then (essentially) the reason you're voting for me. Also how do you still post this,

I think you misinterpreted. I took a solid stance. Pi is town. I was just explaining why they arent scum when I said what scum!Pi wouldn't do.

Ah, sorry, maybe I wasn't clear. I'm saying that piisirrational's post that you liked was more of a case of "looking busy without taking a solid stance on anyone", exactly for the reasons that you stated you would have expected scum to say, as in "agreed with you and scumread me or disagreed with you and scumread you".

after liking piisirrational post, which comments on how my list was of AI-things and not scumreads and that scummy things can be found in town players as well?

This is irrelevant. What Pi said was very town-indicative because no scum agenda was pushed and that was very clear. Your list of reads does not read the same.

Are you saying that you think that scum-hunting and lynching are a scum-agenda?

Most importantly though, Raya, instead of "being wary" (which is conveniently vague) of that list of mine, why don't you go over its points and tell us what you think about them specifically? Even if it's just "this doesn't make sense to me", "this is scummy" or "this I could agree with", wouldn't that be so much more useful for everyone than just stopping at suspecting the whole thing?

I can do that later when I have my laptop if you want

I would appreciate it, thanks.

Honestly, I normally wouldn't go quote by quote like this, but the more you're explaining things, the more you're either showing contradictions or just not making sense, which is either a sign of scum making things up because of inherent dishonesty or a whatever aligned player that doesn't really go back when they're in the "wrong". Which happens, there's no shame in it, and stubbornly sticking to the original stance or whatever only makes them look scummy.

[Ghost Ganster]

@Hectic, you're the best! Please, use your superior intellect, and tell us who you'd be looking at if Elmo is lynched and flips scum! And could you also share your supernatural insights on the exchanges between Snowblaze and Homura?

Okay, but did you consider that other players can analyze the answers to your questions anyway? You don't even necessarily have to be the one doing the analyzing (though that's always good). This is a team game. If you're town, you should be playing to help yourself

and

your teammates. So even if you can't follow up, asking questions, adding pressure, voting people, is always helpful.

Surely if my tone is different to previous games when I was scum it should imply that I’m

not

scum.

The fact you were scum in your game together wasn't in Homura's post. If it's true, then your point is very valid, the omission is scummy in itself, and her explanation for listing you as possible scum loses whatever little basis it already had (I'm not a huge fan of meta).

The difference is in contrast to all her previous games, not just scum games. I considered her tone off-putting in a vacuum. My post was not nebulous enough to misunderstand this.

On its own, probably not (perhaps that "more" you used makes things less clear, though). But Snowblaze's post seemed to indicate that you had only played together when she was scum. Since I don't know who's right (and I'm not about to go look at every game you played), I'm just gonna say that it looks like one of you could be trying to lie or cherry-pick certain pieces and omit others. Either way, like I said, I'm really not a big fan of meta, especially someone else's, so I'm not going to base much of anything on this.

That said, I would have liked it if you had replied to the paragraph before, the one about teamwork and such, instead of completely ignoring it.

Ghost vote on Elmo.

I'm not sure what you mean, sorry. Are you asking me to vote Elmo?

...wow.

Unhelpful. Just clarify your post and explain how/why Snowblaze's question (and now mine) was silly or what-have-you. We are not in your head, and misunderstandings happen, anyway.

I'm not sold on Elmo being scum. She seems pretty aggressive with how she's voting people, but I don't think scum are usually this aggressive in their play. However, the only thing I can attribute to her continual movement of votes and reactions as town is as some form of reaction test (can't really explain much beyond this because this just feels like a possibility in this context). Reaction tests aren't useful though unless information is gained from them so I'd like Elmo to explain the motivation behind her movement of votes at some point.

Can you go over these reaction tests and see what reactions they caused and whether information was gained and what it could have meant?

What does TStBS stand for? Couldn't find it in the page 1 abbreviations link.

First, it's lynch-voting, which I explained in the post in which I did it, is also a great way to pressure the lurker in question to stop lurking and being more active. But even ignoring the fact we disagree on the premise, how do you explain that I didn't push another, then? Elmo's, for example?

What do you mean exactly by lynch-voting? I agree with pressuring the lurker, that's a good reason to vote. But don't you think it would be better to vote the lurker based on something they said or just the fact that they're not posting context rather then outright state you want to policy-lynch them?

What do you mean by the second part? How do I explain that you didn't push another scumread?

Yes, and I explained it in the post in which I actually vote for her. And with the second part I mean: you say it looks like I'm setting up mislynches and if any gained traction I would have pushed that one. So I'm asking you: how do you explain that I didn't do it, then? How do you explain that I didn't push Elmo's when it gained traction? Or perhaps Snowblaze's or piisirrational's?

-Snowblaze having exactly zero reads... I wouldn't say it's necessarily indicative of an alignment, but once again it's unhelpful, so it does raise my suspicions. I'm of the opinion that having bad reads (whatever "bad" means) is better than having none, so I personally would

force

myself to get some (if you get what I mean) in her shoes. Thankfully I'm paranoid enough that it's never going to happen, most likely. XD

You say Snowblaze not having any reads isn't alignment indicative then you say that's not helpful. And not being helpful raises your suspicions therefore you think Snowblaze is sus for something you state is NAI. You contradict yourself. So if this gains traction you can keep pushing this point towards them being scummy. If it doesn't you can use the exact same point to call them town if need be.

Scummy is different from unhelpful, but unhelpful is good for scum. It follows that scum likes it when people are unhelpful and is on average more likely to be unhelpful as well. There's no contradiction there. And to say that I could use that to call them town looks

very

dishonest, because as you pointed it out yourself, I said it's either NAI or suspicious. There is absolutely no room for me to townread them with it.

So that leaves Umlaut who you only had town reasons for and gibus who you never mention in this post or at all besides your RVS vote yet is 4th on your lynch list (so I assume you scumread him too?)

Not really. At the time, he had posted basically no content, so he was sort of high on my list because of a lack of activity, though not nearly on the same level as Homura's.

I sort of liked (if not agreed with) your answers to my other points, though.