Mini Normal 2148 (Post Game)

[Green Crayons]

I kinda have to agree with Dunn that I saw Vot’s post regarding HK50 as a “why do they know so much about his posting style”

lol @ suspecting this as scummy

[Green Crayons]

eenie. meanie. miney. moe.

VOTE: farside

[Green Crayons]

also obviously mala's suspicion of votato is bad, and her back-burner nonsense is silly, but lol nonetheless at farside and notscience

[Green Crayons]

her back-burner nonsense is silly

So that reads a lot more asshole than I intended.

But. Like. Anyone who has played videogames and likes Star Wars knows the reference. There's nothing to back burner.

[Green Crayons]

What don't you like about 64?

[Green Crayons]

Seems within a reasonable band of emotion if she's not lying that she didn't get the reference that apparently the rest of the player set did.

[Green Crayons]

also obviously mala's suspicion of votato is bad, and her back-burner nonsense is silly, but lol nonetheless at farside and notscience

Oh i missed Dunnstral. You're on the lol list too.

[Green Crayons]

But no seriously I think her mala read makes decent sense especially given the info available thus far

Ew. No.

I haven't moved my vote off of her.
I don't like how she has already attached a scum read off of 2 players based on a video game. Seems like a stretch to me.
And if she has that scum read/feeling why did she vote for NS instead of one of you?
So in all I'd say scum read.

First line is null.
Second line translates to "mala not getting SW reference, and therefore wrongly suspecting connection between two players, is scummy"
Third line translates "mala didn't vote switch quickly enough within the span of a few pages"
Fourth line claims scum read on page 3.

Bleck.

[Green Crayons]

It’s an rvs read it doesn’t have to be a damning case lol

It's a made-up suspicion that falls apart when you realize it's based on suspecting Mala for not getting the SW reference.

[Green Crayons]

Seems within a reasonable band of emotion if she's not lying that she didn't get the reference that apparently

the rest of the player set did

some players badgering her about it did

.

I didn't get the reference

Fixed.

[Green Crayons]

I don't like the way you went about the early game, votato + hk50, and then the notscience vote

Is this a chronological description of Mala's play?

[Green Crayons]

One game.

[Green Crayons]

Town have bad suspicions all the time.

[Green Crayons]

I didn’t think wagoning mala would be fruitful at this point in time and wanted to let it develop

You’re still voting her.

[Green Crayons]

Your restaurant as in you have an ownership stake in it? Or yours as it you work there?

[Green Crayons]

As in

[Green Crayons]

I have higher expectation for Mala.

That she has a bad reason for suspecting votato/HK can go either way in terms of Mala’s alignment.

The fact that her suspicion is bad is because she isn’t familiar with SW video games means her bad suspicion isn’t alignment indicative.

You “expecting more” of Malta here means you “expected Mala to get the SW reference so she wouldn’t have had the bad suspicion.”

Unless if you think she’s lying about missing the SW reference.

[Green Crayons]

Anyway.

Also funny enough I now have a scum ping on Dunn

I find this more interesting. Let’s talk about it.

[Green Crayons]

I don't like the way you went about the early game, votato + hk50, and then the notscience vote

Is this a chronological description of Mala's play?

I'm pointing to what I didn't like.

Okay. I don't see how those three things are separate.

[Green Crayons]

VOTE: Battle Mage

Not a bad vote. Someone's living up to their name.

[Green Crayons]

I'm bored and people love ambitious plays on Day 1, so I'm gonna go with:

Green Crayons, Malakittens, Notscience and HK50 for scum.

NS and HK are pumping town vibes.

Mala is null.

I'm obviously town.

What a bad list.

[Green Crayons]

VOTE: Dunnstral

[Green Crayons]

bob's posts look like scum trying to effort. (shrug)

[Green Crayons]

he hadn't indicated suspicion of ANYONE. His only vote was a random vote on Farside - I know it was random because he made it very clear by saying "eenie meanie minie mo".

lol

[Green Crayons]

VOTE: Dunnstral

This looks serious...what's the story here?

I point you to:

he hadn't indicated suspicion of ANYONE. His only vote was a random vote on Farside - I know it was random because he made it very clear by saying "eenie meanie minie mo".

lol

[Green Crayons]

Literally my only early townlean from the first 3 pages, so put me in the crowd of how I don't get why you suspected farside as of that point in the game. I think they asked a great question to Dunnstral in post 20 that more likely than not comes from town in my opinion, although I could be wrong which is why it's limited to just a townlean.

I've already explained this: here, here, and here.

[Green Crayons]

bob's posts look like scum trying to effort. (shrug)

[Query:]

While the movements of your upper filaments is quite an 'effective' form of communication, can you please explain this further?

It's a bunch of words that don't really do much.

[Green Crayons]

In particular my eyes glazed over on the RVS theory. Just feels like empty effort.

[Green Crayons]

We're going to sort HK from his scum hunting and wagon analysis.

E Z

[Green Crayons]

Why is Kokkol not lynched yet?

You don't have that sort of moral authority yet, sir.

[Green Crayons]

Literally my only early townlean from the first 3 pages, so put me in the crowd of how I don't get why you suspected farside as of that point in the game. I think they asked a great question to Dunnstral in post 20 that more likely than not comes from town in my opinion, although I could be wrong which is why it's limited to just a townlean.

I've already explained this: here, here, and here.

Also, because apparently others are missing this too:

- Suspecting mala for missing the SW reference is scum indicative because it is not based on an AI action from mala
- That put three people in the suspect pool: NS, farside, and dunn
- From there I asked those three some Qs to suss things out
- I like NS's explanation of his suspicions (more than just that initial SW reference, also mala's reaction to attention)
- To a lesser extent farside's explanation is okay (similar to NS, but seems to be shifting her original reason for suspicion)
- I don't care for dunn's explanation (it points out three "different" aspects of mala's play that's really just one--trying to make his vote look more thought out that it was)

[Green Crayons]

I think they asked a great question to Dunnstral in post 20 that more likely than not comes from town in my opinion, although I could be wrong which is why it's limited to just a townlean.

lol

I did miss this. Nice catch.

Spoiler: lol

VOTE: hk 50 i know that you're really an assassin droid

Town or scum im enjoying hk-50 commitment for posting style.

He's scum with votato, but I'll let him live for being amusing

Why is votato part of this sentence?

I vaguely saw his first post as a partner post

VOTE: Malakittens

You are mafia

Por que?

I don't like the way you went about the early game,

votato + hk50

, and then the notscience vote

[Green Crayons]

^^^ I don't see how that makes farside town. It does strengthen Dunn being scum.

[Green Crayons]

I'm not voting mala for not getting a reference, I hope that helps

lol

[Green Crayons]

ZZZZZzzzzz everyone vote Stella

Do you just make up names for people or are these real names?

[Green Crayons]

Votato votes are lazy. I bet one of y'all are scum.

[Green Crayons]

mala or bob, with me leaning towards bob

[Green Crayons]

She's more or less null for me at the moment, and so she's a contender.

[Green Crayons]

Also, am I the only one who doesn't care about HK's posting style?

[Green Crayons]

@Votato:

are you apathetic as scum?

[Green Crayons]

Also BM, please get an avatar, here, you can even borrow this one

Revolting.

[Green Crayons]

When he was very clearly actively reading the thread and replied 7 min after a question but hasn’t done anything

Can you clarify the "he" and the reply you're referring to, here?

[Green Crayons]

Says the guy with a deformed eyeball for an avatar

And that's why it was a compliment.

[Green Crayons]

Jeeze this is annoying. Please just do separate posts, I promise I'll read them.

OK, I'm halfway through the pages. Making progress!

Would like to know how many scum are typically in a 13 player game though? 2? 3? Or 4? I am guessing 3, but not sure.

I am assuming 3

Id just like everyone to note this was a 7 min reply which means hes actively reading the thread just doing nothing

Is this the only example you have of him actively reading the thread? A quick response to the very last post, not directed at him, doesn't scream to me as actively monitoring the thread.

His ISO looks like someone who's D1 lazy + said he doesn't look at MS much on weekends. My only complaint is that, even if he is too good for D1 muck, he doesn't live up to his own explanation of what is good about D1:

votes are the important thing

and there just haven't been many so far. I'm very much the type of person who looks at people's voting patterns and trying to either spot inconsistencies or really, really bad logic used to justify them

[Green Crayons]

GC has a fair point, geraintm is still voting not science based off RVS reasoning, which is just a very lazy vote park that is not seemingly going to get us anywhere this day phase. I'm not real fond of it.

If he's town, it's as though he is playing a scared game, and I also don't really like that. If he is scum, it makes sense; he wants to stay in the background.

@GC: if you had to guess, what do you think geraintm's alignment is?

Town.

I don't think he's playing a scared game. I think he's being lazy in how he treats D1.

[Green Crayons]

Gross, now votato is acting suspicious.

[Green Crayons]

That humor is hella forced.

[Green Crayons]

I mean, there are competing bandwagons and people who have voiced or failed to voice reasons for why they joined them.

Plenty of reasons for a better than RVS vote.

[Green Crayons]

I do appreciate you actually participating in D1, though.

[Green Crayons]

He's a VI. If you want a link to his past games, let me know.

I just finished playing with him. He wasn’t a VI.

[Green Crayons]

Agree with top half of your post, last para doesn't sound right to me.

It did seem like premature association analysis. Interesting theory about AI.

[Green Crayons]

VOTE: Battle Mage

[Green Crayons]

His vote on votato looks made up.

First, his vote:

Votato votes are lazy. I bet one of y'all are scum.

Challenge accepted!

VOTE: Votato

I like the meta analysis by stungun

, clearly nobody is getting behind Green Crayons, and I think I'm townleaning Dunnstral. And seriously, voting BM on Day 1? This dude has run out of ideas...

He reads votato as scum only because of your meta analysis. But your meta analysis specifically said it was a wash on alignment, and so wasn't AI:

While you may be fairly active in some of your scum games, this evidence does not suggest that in your town games you are always lurking at the start.

Thus, I don't think this initial analysis into your gameplay is very alignment-indicative, as it seems you are breaking pattern regardless of alignment.

So his votato vote pushes a wagon based on nothing AI. He does get in a sweet "lol ooOooOooOoo I'm teasing you with maybe I'm scum" jab, which is more likely to come from scum than town.


Then, this continued vote despite:

i have a little but i cant talk about it. by day 2 or 3 ill probably give some more details. as for the association you're drawing between me and dunn, stun, you're right that we aren't scumbuddies, but i dont think your reasons why are all that strong. plus the only reason you know that is cuz you and i are scumbuddies.

shit wrong thread.

Last time I saw something like this it flipped town, but what can ya do!?

He points to non-player-specific meta that would suggest that votato is town. But just lols over it and keeps his votato vote. His decision to pick and choose "meta" to justify whether votes should move is particularly glaring when you consider he uses meta a few posts later in Post 403 to argue votes on Dunn are misplaced.

[Green Crayons]

His

justification for his

vote on votato looks made up.

Fixed.

[Green Crayons]

a few posts

later

earlier

Also fixed.

[Green Crayons]

Y'all are killing me right now.

[Green Crayons]

Y’all rely way too much on so called meta.

[Green Crayons]

God this is going to be annoying.

[Green Crayons]

I think people should be less focused on me, personally

Ever think that if you actually responded to people’s suspicions then the wagon might move on?

[Green Crayons]

Hmm... that makes me think, that he's not out for scum self-preservation? It's not super strong conviction, but it just doesn't make sense if he is scum. His ploy would have to be "I'm going to play super nonchalant here to get people off my wagon without pushing any counterevidence that could lead others elsewhere and off of my tracks." That is a hard scum strategy to indeed play and convince others of, so I'm not currently getting a scum vibe out of that.

He was active and then shriveled into a ball once he got some pressure on him.

That he hasn’t moved coincides with his attempt to make himself as small and unnoticeable as possible.

I don’t think this is AI either way, as it could come from any alignment. But it doesn’t clear him.

[Green Crayons]

Yup. Annoying.

Okay I'll just hit the highlights.

But then he contradicts that a few posts later into his ISO, suddenly flipping and discrediting votato in 396 by saying "Gross, now votato is acting suspicious." Followed by in 398 declaring that the humor of his scum partner post "is clearly forced." Still, he never seems like he is considering hopping on to the votato wagon, only discredits.

This is me literally reacting to votato's post. Egads, how dare i respond to the changing gamestate.

[Green Crayons]

Further discrediting can be found of bob in 177 that "Bob's posts look like scum trying to effort." Meanwhile, Bob is a pretty well townread player so far, so this definitely sticks out in terms of calling him scummy. It just feels like he is trying to fit bob there, conveniently, so maybe he can vote him later. He also discredited my earliest town read, farside, as well while reasoning that what I found

actually

made dunn look scummier in 228.

lol

"discrediting" is the loaded term you're using for me calling someone scummy

okay

[Green Crayons]

Also took a weird stance on BM that his vote on Votato "looked made up" in 421, which does not exactly seem like the best reason to vote BM if you ask me. Also, I do not know if it is a natural town instinct to come to a conclusion that a vote "is made up", just seems like a forced scum conclusion, but maybe I am wrong there.

Maybe if you look harder, you'll see I've been suspecting Battle Mage for a while.

Maybe if you look *even harder*, you'll see why.

And lol @ my justification for voting BM apparently went completely over your head in your pursuit to vote me.

[Green Crayons]

Further, it seems that technically

GC supports all of Votato, Dunnstral, and Battle Mage being lynched based off their content so far. The fact that they are somewhat supporting all three of the current majority wagons, and also maintaining suspicions of bob, farside, Mala, and others makes it seem like GC's intent is to pin others against each other while GC sits back and watches town get confused

. This does not feel like town trying to sort, it feels like scum aggressively trying to keep options open. Further, throughout his ISO it feels like he is basically willing to lynch anybody except himself, which obviously gives more of an unsettling scum narrative vibe than a town one.

This is a legitimately bad understanding of developing D1 reads.

[Green Crayons]

Also, the redirection back to Dunnstral's lynch in 453 reinforces my point that GC is all right with pretty much any way the lynch goes, as long as it's not him.

And yet, he is NOT voting dunnstral right now. He is voting Battle Mage.

Clear scum here, to me.

Immediately after I switched from dunn to BM, because nobody was biting at dunn, two people jumped onto dunn. That put dunn at L-2. I didn't need to add my vote because the pressure is there and my suspicions still stand (by and large of which farside has taken the flag for others to rally behind). My vote's plenty useful on BM.

[Green Crayons]

VOTE: crayons there are no current good wagons, my vote is on BM as a placeholder ffs.

You should go back to Battle Mage for good reasons.

[Green Crayons]

Further, it seems that technically

GC supports all of Votato, Dunnstral, and Battle Mage being lynched based off their content so far. The fact that they are somewhat supporting all three of the current majority wagons, and also maintaining suspicions of bob, farside, Mala, and others makes it seem like GC's intent is to pin others against each other while GC sits back and watches town get confused

. This does not feel like town trying to sort, it feels like scum aggressively trying to keep options open. Further, throughout his ISO it feels like he is basically willing to lynch anybody except himself, which obviously gives more of an unsettling scum narrative vibe than a town one.

This is a legitimately bad understanding of developing D1 reads.

Also

and I'll attribute your mischaracterization of my stance on votato to your single-mindedness to Present A Scum Case and be a good town

I don't support a votato lynch, and have never said I did.

[Green Crayons]

Further, it seems that technically

GC supports all of Votato, Dunnstral, and Battle Mage being lynched based off their content so far. The fact that they are somewhat supporting all three of the current majority wagons, and also maintaining suspicions of bob, farside, Mala, and others makes it seem like GC's intent is to pin others against each other while GC sits back and watches town get confused

. This does not feel like town trying to sort, it feels like scum aggressively trying to keep options open. Further, throughout his ISO it feels like he is basically willing to lynch anybody except himself, which obviously gives more of an unsettling scum narrative vibe than a town one.

This is a legitimately bad understanding of developing D1 reads.

Also

and I'll attribute your mischaracterization of my stance on votato to your single-mindedness to Present A Scum Case and be a good town

I don't support a votato lynch, and have never said I did.

ALSO also


lol Mala is a null as I've said before


Hot damn you really wanted to make a case. Congrats, I suppose.

[Green Crayons]

When someone says

GC says X

and I know from memory that I've said Y

I just might phrase it, "no, Y, as I've said before"

[Green Crayons]

Also took a weird stance on BM that his vote on Votato "looked made up" in 421, which does not exactly seem like the best reason to vote BM if you ask me. Also, I do not know if it is a natural town instinct to come to a conclusion that a vote "is made up", just seems like a forced scum conclusion, but maybe I am wrong there.

Maybe if you look harder, you'll see I've been suspecting Battle Mage for a while.

Maybe if you look *even harder*, you'll see why.

And lol @ my justification for voting BM apparently went completely over your head in your pursuit to vote me.

I think this is important, btw.

BM switched to votato. His only reason for suspecting votato as scum is because of stun's meta analysis of votato.

The problem is that stun's meta analysis--by stun's own explanation!--is that it doesn't show that votato is scum. It just shows that he is not town.


And so


drum roll, please

His

justification for his

vote on votato looks made up.

Fixed.

[Green Crayons]

The problem is that stun's meta analysis--by stun's own explanation!--is that it doesn't show that votato is scum. It just shows that

it doesn't clear him as town

he is not town

.

lol fixed again

[Green Crayons]

Someone give me the short version of why we’re voting gc I was leaning town there

He doesn't like that I voice suspicions of players without some sort of counterbalancing of voicing my opinion about players who are town (even though elsewhere he recognizes that I do that too).

[Green Crayons]

Sorry, I glossed over the comically bad parts.

[Green Crayons]

Do you understand the BM vote or just not going to think about that?

[Green Crayons]

lol

also obviously mala's suspicion of votato is bad, and her back-burner nonsense is silly, but lol nonetheless at farside and notscience

Here's me literally defending that mala's bad suspicion is not AI about mala (bad reasoning =/= scum):

I have higher expectation for Mala.

That she has a bad reason for suspecting votato/HK can go either way in terms of Mala’s alignment.

The fact that her suspicion is bad is because she isn’t familiar with SW video games means her bad suspicion isn’t alignment indicative.

You “expecting more” of Malta here means you “expected Mala to get the SW reference so she wouldn’t have had the bad suspicion.”

Unless if you think she’s lying about missing the SW reference.

And then

mala or bob, with me leaning towards bob

Did you purposefully ignore me say why she was on that list? Just two posts later?

She's more or less null for me at the moment, and so she's a contender.

[Green Crayons]

Since you're around, NS, what do you think about a BM vote?

Also took a weird stance on BM that his vote on Votato "looked made up" in 421, which does not exactly seem like the best reason to vote BM if you ask me. Also, I do not know if it is a natural town instinct to come to a conclusion that a vote "is made up", just seems like a forced scum conclusion, but maybe I am wrong there.

Maybe if you look harder, you'll see I've been suspecting Battle Mage for a while.

Maybe if you look *even harder*, you'll see why.

And lol @ my justification for voting BM apparently went completely over your head in your pursuit to vote me.

I think this is important, btw.

BM switched to votato. His only reason for suspecting votato as scum is because of stun's meta analysis of votato.

The problem is that stun's meta analysis--by stun's own explanation!--is that it doesn't show that votato is scum. It just shows that he is not town.


And so


drum roll, please

His

justification for his

vote on votato looks made up.

Fixed.

The problem is that stun's meta analysis--by stun's own explanation!--is that it doesn't show that votato is scum. It just shows that

it doesn't clear him as town

he is not town

.

lol fixed again

[Green Crayons]

I don't think that's true... I'm fairly convinced GC is scum and on D1 when I get that feeling it usually is right, although there are expections.

You should take a healthy dose of perspective.

[Green Crayons]

He seems mildly town.

Let’s focus on BM.

Who doesn’t have a legitimate scum read on votato—BM voted because of stun’s meta analysis that stun said was not AI—but BM voted votato anyway.

Red light scum alert.

[Green Crayons]

510 is an example of someone using bad logic

this time it suggests town

see, stun, how saying someone is using bad logic/reasoning isn't synonymous with calling someone scum?

[Green Crayons]

Votato's GC vote was really bad

Post 467 feels more like town trying (and failing spectacularly) to scum hunt rather than scum coming up with a reason to vote, especially when he could've just stayed safe with standing by stun's case

[Green Crayons]

because

especially when he could've just stayed safe with standing by stun's case

and

"you used this magic phrase which means you went back and looked at what you posted"--which is incorrect factually--"which means your reads are fake and therefore you're scum"--which is bad reasoning

is so thin a reed to rest a suspicion on that I don't think scum would try it

[Green Crayons]

There's also that, apart from your attempt at "scum slip" humor, I don't think anything you've done is suspicious.

[Green Crayons]

It's like you're scum and taunting me.

[Green Crayons]

The fact Stungun doesn't think it's AI, doesn't mean I don't think it's AI. I believe I said, as above, "I like the analysis", as opposed to "I agree with the analysis in it's entirety and share Stungun's resulting conclusion". I did in fact think it was AI, and voted for that reason.

Why is it AI?

[Green Crayons]

lol

okay you take your time trying to figure out how you can make stun's NOT-AI meta analysis into a YES-AI meta analysis

[Green Crayons]

He reads votato as scum only because of your meta analysis. But your meta analysis specifically said it was a wash on alignment, and so wasn't AI:

The fact Stungun doesn't think it's AI, doesn't mean I don't think it's AI. I believe I said, as above, "I like the analysis", as opposed to "I agree with the analysis in it's entirety and share Stungun's resulting conclusion". I did in fact think it was AI, and voted for that reason.

Why is it AI?

I'll answer that when I've caught up.

just lol

[Green Crayons]

Now this, votato, is scummy:

Again!? Beating a dead horse here pal. I suppose you wouldn't know if my scumread was legitimate or not, because you haven't bothered to ask me or probe my explanation, you've just set up an implausible strawman.

- I've raised this point several times, both to generally to the thread to explain my vote and to specific players to try to get them to engage with it. That's not "beating a dead horse," but he tries to discredit normal mafia play.
- I don't need to know whether his scumread was legitimate because he already gave his reason for voting you, and it was not an AI reason. Thus the reason as he stated was not legitimate. (lol and now he's taking his time to try to justify his vote to create a new reason)
- Calling strawman, when there's no straw man here, to deflect from his scumminess

[Green Crayons]

It's like you're scum and taunting me.

see your taunts directed at me

I taunt bad cases on obvious town.

[Green Crayons]

stun, you're a lost cause. enjoy some kite flying.

[Green Crayons]

He reads votato as scum only because of your meta analysis. But your meta analysis specifically said it was a wash on alignment, and so wasn't AI:

The fact Stungun doesn't think it's AI, doesn't mean I don't think it's AI. I believe I said, as above, "I like the analysis", as opposed to "I agree with the analysis in it's entirety and share Stungun's resulting conclusion". I did in fact think it was AI, and voted for that reason.

Why is it AI?

I'll answer that when I've caught up.

just lol

Adding onto this BM trying to come up with a real reason to justify a votato vote

is that BM shaded me for not trying to engage him for why he voted votato

so then when I point blank asked him about that reason

he said "hold on let me come up with a reason"

[Green Crayons]

^^^ the hypocrisy is AI because he's coming up with reasons to vote me and then those reasons crumble as he backs down

[Green Crayons]

What makes you obvious town? idgi

It's partially a joke. I'm obvtown to myself. The joke is that votato can't know that.

[Green Crayons]

Neat.

I've already tried to get you to engage with my BM suspicions. You've ignored me. I also just expounded on them. You're ignoring that as well.

[Green Crayons]

in the corresponding scum slot

Also, I cannot express enough how bad it is to try to fill up scum team slots in D1. Associative suspicions are practically worthless in D1 without flips.

[Green Crayons]

I made a hot take that all scum were in a group of 4 players, which actually ended up being correct, because all three scum were in that group of players.

This is different than associative tells, right?

You say: these four players are scum based on my gut read/how they did suspicious things. That's not association based.

That is different than: these four players are scum based on how they're acting with each other. That's association based.

Saying you've got X-number of scum slots, and you're filling them up with either/ors, makes it sound like you're using associative suspicions.

[Green Crayons]

Also, it's not that I am looking for associatives in the sense of who is working together, but more I am looking to make sense of the game from the standpoint of "the game only makes sense if one of these players is scum", and the alternative makes absolutely no sense.

I guess that's a distinction, but I don't really see the difference except in the phrasing.

[Green Crayons]

GC finds BM scummy because his vote on Votato looks made up, because BM said he liked my meta analysis on Votato which said what he has done so far is NAI, but because BM thought Votato was scummy for what I analyzed. So GC finds BM to voting Votato there not because he thinks Votato is truly scummy, but instead extending my NAI read on Votato to mean he is scummy?

Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeees, thank you.

In some ways, I can understand this logic here, but in other ways this seems a little bit of a stretch, so I'm conflicted looking at this reasoning?

BM could have just voted Votato on the basis of not seeing anything scummier to that point

, so I feel like the better argument would be that he's not properly scumhunting, and thus he is scum assuming your vantage point is town. He simply is feeding off of my read, and interpreting ~ to be scummy based off of that, using my analysis to both shield him and pocket me.

Good point, but complete hypothetical.

BM has since clarified that he thought your meta read was good, but instead of agreeing with NAI, he found it AI. So BM has wedded himself to saying that his basis for voting votato was because your meta read was actually AI.

That means, way back at the time he voted votato, he thought your meta analysis was AI.

So I challenged him on it. How is it AI?

BM's response: "um give me a minute"

Right here:

Spoiler: I already quoted this

He reads votato as scum only because of your meta analysis. But your meta analysis specifically said it was a wash on alignment, and so wasn't AI:

The fact Stungun doesn't think it's AI, doesn't mean I don't think it's AI. I believe I said, as above, "I like the analysis", as opposed to "I agree with the analysis in it's entirety and share Stungun's resulting conclusion". I did in fact think it was AI, and voted for that reason.

Why is it AI?

I'll answer that when I've caught up.

just lol

If he already thought it was AI, he could just say why instead of delaying to come up with a reason.

[Green Crayons]

So we’re back to:

Someone give me the short version of why we’re voting gc I was leaning town there

He doesn't like that I voice suspicions of players without some sort of counterbalancing of voicing my opinion about players who are town (even though elsewhere he recognizes that I do that too).

[Green Crayons]

He’s quitting without giving us the nonexistent AI justification for his votato vote that he totally promises that he has and has had all along.

I’m sorry but that’s trash. Even if he isn’t lying about not enough free time, he chose to quit *this* game before giving that supposedly already-existing justification. BM claimed that he could tell us his AI justification for votato! It would supposedly show that my suspicions of him are completely baseless! He just doesn’t want to because ——.

And the replacement will say “sorry folks I’m not a mind reader who knows what BM was thinking.”

[Green Crayons]

Yeah, that's strange, I'm ngl... I will need explanation for that.

my pizza had just turned up and I wanted to watch the football while I ate.

Poor old GC, clutching at straws a bit. If the posting slows a little bit, I'll catch up on some stuff shortly - there's a lot to catch up on across all my games so I'm not promising to respond to everything tonight.

Literally the time it took to write this post would have been the time BM needed to tell us his AI justification for voting votato.

Remember: BM said that he already reasoned why stun’s meta analysis was AI all the way back when BM voted votato. So BM should be able to just spit it out.

He hasn’t because he’s lying. You can’t spin stun’s NAI meta analysis into an AI meta analysis.

Lynch all liars. BM is scum.

[Green Crayons]

You have my name wrong.

[Green Crayons]

That’s some weak tea. Vote BM. He’s obviously scum.

[Green Crayons]

That’s not a half bad explanation.

It doesn’t erase the fact that it took you this long to actually voice it.

[Green Crayons]

A. That wasn't the only reason for my vote - just one that GC has tried to strawman and attack me for.

Also this is a lie.

You didn’t give any other reason for your votato vote.

[Green Crayons]

Anyway. I’ll give BM some more thought.

[Green Crayons]

I'd find it strange if BM flips scum.

Let's flip BM.

[Green Crayons]

Anyway. I’ll give BM some more thought.

I do plan on doing this, which really should be a reread to make sure my sense of things isn't completely off.

[Green Crayons]

dunn has already stuck up against geraintm being lynched, and geraintm weakly against dunn

Can you pull what you're referencing here?

[Green Crayons]

I don't?

[Green Crayons]

I think BM is more likely to flip scum than town. His explanation for reading scum's NAI meta analysis as AI is plausible on its face. In context though, that plausibility doesn't undermine the other suspicions that point to scum:

-He took forever to provide his AI justification, although he supposedly thought of it ages ago

- He took plenty of time to discredit my suspicions as strawmanning without actually just engaging with my suspicions and providing his AI justification, suggesting delay to come up with a plausible reason after the fact

- He's saying BOTH (1) he had other suspicions for voting votato so we shouldn't suspect him for this thin reasoning (supposed other reasons that he never voiced, so how are we supposed to know that?) AND (2) it was an early vote so we're expecting too much from him in terms of reasoning, which are contradictory defenses that defeat each other. EITHER we should give him a pass because he had other, stronger reasons to vote votato OR we should give him a pass because it was early D1 so he didn't need to have strong reasons to vote votato. It looks like scum slinging whatever defenses he can.

[Green Crayons]

His explanation for reading

scum's

stun's

NAI meta analysis as AI is plausible on its face.

Fixed.

[Green Crayons]

I find it weird that geraintm and dunn

are suddenly coming out of the woodwork sticking up for BM, and dunn has already stuck up against geraintm being lynched, and geraintm weakly against dunn? Anyone else find this strange?

I'd find it strange if BM flips scum.

Let's flip BM.

I was saying I would find it strange in response to stun, with the "it" referring to gerain's and dunn's actions as noted by stun.

[Green Crayons]

Could be trying to deflect it also so as it doesn't look like a counterwagon

I'm right here....you could ask me

Why is your vote on someone who is hella not suspicious.

[Green Crayons]

why is notsci so town?

I liked his explanation of his Mala suspicions, his defense of his votato vote, and his reaction to stun/GC.

[Green Crayons]

That’s what bothered me is I’m like I read SG going after GC but why is he voting Bm?!?

lol

lol because

stun has shaded me for doing the exact same thing (saying I'm suspicious of Dunn but also voting BM)


eagerly awaiting to see if stun will have a moment of clarity

[Green Crayons]

"I'm telling ya, I don't know who who painted ya walls red, Jake!"

Vote Count 1.9

Dunnstral (4):

DoctorPepper, farside22, HK 50, [notscience]

Battle Mage (3):

Not_Mafia, Green Crayons, stungun0404

votato (2):

Malakittens, Battle Mage

Green Crayons (1):

votato

notscience (1):

geraintm

geraintm (1):

bob3141

Not_Mafia (1):

Dunnstral

Not voting (0):

---

Mod Notes:

Majority is 7 players.

Day 1 has begun and will end in (expired on 2020-06-23 07:23:04).
notscience is V/LA until Sunday, and has handed their vote to Malakittens.
farside22 is V/LA for (expired on 2020-06-19 13:49:13)[/area]

Not sure why mala, votato, gerain, or bob are still voting for who they are voting.

[Green Crayons]

I have answered your question already

It's a bad answer. Thus I don't know why you're still clinging to your RVS(?) vote.

[Green Crayons]

Like, 637 suggests you would at least want to vote NM instead of your random vote.

But nope.

Are you paralyzed by doubt? Lazy? Scum? Who knows!

You *not* updating your vote is going to make sorting you much more difficult in later days.

[Green Crayons]

Surely there is some middle ground between a "fully formed vote"--which, this is mafia, so ????--and "plac[ing] 27 in a day."


What do you think about a Dunn vote?

[Green Crayons]

I have not advocated for your lynch/actively pushed evidence for others to vote you since I switched to voting BM, whereas in your case you were actively stuck on voting BM while pushing evidence to support a Dunnstral lynch, which is highly inconsistent and only can encourage what was already the biggest wagon that has formed this day phase. Thus, those are two entirely different scenarios. How, then, are they the exact same thing?

You suspect both BM and GC, and switched from voting GC to BM. You obviously still suspect GC. Mala finds that suspicious.

I suspect both Dunn and BM, and switched from voting Dunn to BM. I obviously still suspect Dunn. stun finds that suspicious.

ToWn CaN sUsPeCt MuLtIpLe PeOpLe At ThE sAmE tImE.

[Green Crayons]

All in all, I dont believe the votato interaction by stungun was done for what was claimed. I wouldnt be surprised if Dunnstral is scum and stungun picked to pressure other LHFesk players in a bid to protect Dunnstral.

I dont consider myself easily put off by effort posts, but this entire post was really difficult to get through and follow.

I think the upshot tho is what I just quoted. If so—doesn’t your entire stun-scum read boil down to an associative tell IF Dunn flips scum?

[Green Crayons]

I dont consider myself easily put off by effort posts, but this entire post was really difficult to get through and follow.

I didn't read it

I’m shocked, just shocked to hear.

[Green Crayons]

It feels too blatant for scum.

Too scummy to be scum?

[Green Crayons]

Makes you think.

[Green Crayons]

Makes you think.

[Green Crayons]

Whoa double posting goodness.

[Green Crayons]

My case is that his posts suck and he has no reason for his vote in the first place

Looks like you’re voting him based on posting style.

[Green Crayons]

There is a metric ton of associative theory going on without a flip.

[Green Crayons]

^^^ I don't think that's AI, but I do think it can lead town down wrong paths.

[Green Crayons]

I agree.......why are you voting for BM/Clidd and who are your other scum reads?

Phone posting so, long and short of BM/Clidd is that BM’s wonky posts that NM called out, his suuuuuper delayed reason for justifying his AI meta read on votato, and his defense of his actions generally (trying to make me, his most articulate vote pusher, out to be scum; and also his inconsistent defenses making it look like he’s trying to find any excuse that appeals to the reader)

I’m still happy with a Dunn lynch tbh. At this point his super early hypocrisy isn’t a deal sealer in term is alignment. But his absolute refusal to engage on this point is troubling. I’ve somewhat thought maybe he’s a PR that’s trying to lay low but at this point when he’s a primary wagon his refusal to speak seems more like scum trying to just get by from not making a stir.

[Green Crayons]

Bc I’ve been drinking and now my neighbors who I was porch chilling with have left, let’s run down the player list.


votato - I’m thinking town but siiigh
bob3141 - leaning town now tbh
DoctorPepper - null bit was thinking town at some point
Not_Mafia- town Honestly not sure how folks can’t see between the lines with his posting.
geraintm - pretty sure town
Ghost Ganster stungun0404 - town Like, annoyingly super town and I say annoyingly because he can get a thought in his head and it might be wrong by gd he runs it down.
Green Crayons - town
farside22 - honestly thinking scum. Sorry <3
HK 50 - town, even tho I don’t k ow where he’s coming from with his fixation on stun
Battle Mage clidd - scum
Malakittens - null. Like if you put a gun to my head I’d slot her town but damn she’s been pretty absent in a way I cannot read
notscience - town. Not even a Q.
Dunnstral - scum

[Green Crayons]

Lol lots of town reads. I’m *not* playing to stun’s expectations. Maybe he shouldn’t try to compare my meta to a whatever-page replacement to an early D1.

[Green Crayons]

And whoever did another meta of me (farside?) I haven’t been scum in over 5 years.


And it’s fucking d e l i c i o u s

[Green Crayons]

It seems like a lot of people scum read bm but not that many people are actually voting there.

If this is true I think the people who aren’t walking their talk are super suspicious regardless of BM’s flip.

Name names.

[Green Crayons]

GC games he asked more questions in this game
replaced in here putting out reads but thoughts but I don't see either game were he gets pissy or bitchy to anyone.
Games after those are 2018 or older and I know pl

Ah yes the “pissy or bitchy” metric, which is definitely a thing that people can objectively measure.

[Green Crayons]

Has HK said who they suspect other than stun?

[Green Crayons]

How generous of stungun to offer my lynch in case he's wrong on my townread

i also caught that, but it's ego like that that really sings town to me

[Green Crayons]

hmmm.... these reads stink when you look at them this way. votato liking this is yuck, he only likes it because he's town in this list

And I suspect you might not like it because of where you land on it

votato's sudden warmth towards me hasn't gone unnoticed

[Green Crayons]

farside22 - honestly thinking scum. Sorry <3

If town:
-Farside/bob scum equity goes up (this is my bargaining chip. You want to see my little secret? Gotta keep my robot ass alive and flip Dunnstral).

i also have clidd as top scumread. dunn is scummyish, farside is hmmm, maybe scum. gerain is a bit scummy.

There sure are a lot of people with these phantom scumreads on farside22 that:

a) never get explained
b) never get acted on
c) are never reacted to by farside or anyone else pushing me

I've been suspecting farside from the beginning, and while I was okay with her immediate response to my QUESTIONS (lol), since then her play has been a single-mindedness in pushing Dunn (except with a brief foray into weaksauce meta of me) aligns with scum play as not casting too wide a net of suspicions so she can be fluid to adapt later

[Green Crayons]

Not_Mafia- town Honestly not sure how folks can’t see between the lines with his posting.

I don't see between the lines, care to explain?

You can't just ISO NM. He posts in response to what is actually happening in the game.

[Green Crayons]

your 3 scumreads are me, clidd, and... farside

I doubt y'all are a scum team but guess what? It's D1 so fuck trying to create a scum team I'm just pointing out who has been suspicious.

[Green Crayons]

There isn't an honest null in there - you're playing to too many sides among people you perceive to hold influence, your farside read doesn't make sense as scum with the other 2 of us, and yes, having both me and clidd as scum is lazy and bad

There's actually a lot going on in here. A lot wrong, that is. But it doesn't seem like the same type of frantic "throw up whatever" defense that BM was spewing.

[Green Crayons]

Could we get a GC wagon going? Just look at how bad his pushes are on BM, and his behavior in comparison to other games. This is typically lol I'm going to throw shit post from scum.

lol

<3

[Green Crayons]

farside, you *did* pull scum this time, didn't you?

[Green Crayons]

Because, despite you claiming my BM/Clidd vote is lazy and farside saying it's a bad push, I'm an OG believer in a BM vote. I'm happy to vote farside tomorrow, especially if BM/Clidd is scum.

[Green Crayons]

All he says is inane things like vote x, x is scum

Generally in response to X having just posted. So look at X's posts and see if there's something worthwhile to suspect.

[Green Crayons]

^^^ I say generally. I think he's done it once or twice with BM/Clidd, recalling off the top of my head. After that he's just trying to get people to wagon.

[Green Crayons]

I had not mafia as bad, I hated all his posts saying BM was scum, sure of it, then pushing everyone else to vote elsewhere before they moved their own vote.

I don't believe this is correct.

[Green Crayons]

Yeah, a quick ISO shows NM's BM vote is his fourth post. His push to get BM/clidd votes all follow that.


geraintm likely town by getting this easily verifiable fact mixed up

[Green Crayons]

Yeah. Scum are generally more careful, especially something as easily verifiable like that.

[Green Crayons]

Has HK said who they suspect other than stun?

@GC, I notice that you asked this question right after farside and I called you out for not asking enough questions, conveniently.

But you never followed up on it after I gave an answer, even so much as mentioning HK afterwards.

How come? Are you genuinely concerned about HK? Or was this just an empty question for the sake of asking a question after we called you out?

To me, this seems like the type of question you would want to follow up on once an answer was obtained.0

Maybe you should let HK talk for himself. Which is what I'm waiting for.

[Green Crayons]

@GC, I notice that you asked this question right after farside and I called you out for not asking enough questions, conveniently.

also seriously you are fucking exhausting

[Green Crayons]

I think it was perfectly called for. You didn't ask a question. You made a statement to lob another suspicion based on your really, spectacularly bad meta analysis that farside has glomped onto like a leach. It's exhausting.

[Green Crayons]

It is not bad, because early on I noticed a drastic difference in the number of questions you asked in a few of your town games vs. the number you had asked in here through a certain number of posts, which was suggestive that maybe you were not curious enough because you are scum.

Y’all rely way too much on so called meta.

[Green Crayons]

Meta's good for broad stroke impressions like activity. When used to compare against RECENT and LOTS of games.

Notions that comparing "how many questions" and "bitchiness" between games is fruitful is a waste a time. Just finding comparable games is difficult--each game is different with different stages of gameplay, different personalities, different pushes, etc. People play differently in different circumstances. So just finding a comparable game isn't just "oh he was town here," it needs to be sufficiently similar gaming circumstances. AND THEN you need a sample size greater than fucking one. Jesus.

Not only that, but assuming you get a bunch of recent actually comparable games, and you can point out that there are real play differences, the question then is is that different AI?


Rather than doing all of that, you've compared me to a game where I've replaced in (just lol) and farside has compared my "bitchiness" to a game where nobody who I read as town pushed a shit case on me.




TLDR: meta is trash, because everyone is using it poorly.

[Green Crayons]

Ok, done. I need 24 hours to work on my reads (I'll post tomorrow).

We're at 40 hours to deadline and Clidd still hasn't followed up.

I don't think this is AI, but I do think it's screwing us over.

[Green Crayons]

Still find your reaction to BM to be over the top and unnecessary. You were happy with BM's response but keep your vote on him.
How that can be read as town to anyone is a mystery to me.

I said I would consider it. I maintain that his response is plausible on its face, but the context in which he gave it is still suspicious.

[Green Crayons]

Right so this game is stale because of the double replacement.


Porkens, I'd like your claim and then some suspects.

[Green Crayons]

I could go Dunn or farside for the Mala push rn tbh

Why'd you leave out ns?

[Green Crayons]

Hunh.

See the thing that I found odd is 2 things
1) In regards to mala is that she said she thought them scum together and wanted to keep that on the back burner even when it was just a reference to a video game. So that just made no sense this early in the game.
2) was this post from GC:

also obviously mala's suspicion of votato is bad, and her back-burner nonsense is silly, but lol nonetheless at farside and notscience

Which to me reads that, well he agrees that everything mala said looks bad or silly but it's scummy to point that out. Then he says this:

her back-burner nonsense is silly

So that reads a lot more asshole than I intended.

But. Like. Anyone who has played videogames and likes Star Wars knows the reference. There's nothing to back burner.

Again that was in my post that he disagreed with. So none of his disagreement match with what he is saying after.


VOTE: Green Crayon

Also funny enough I now have a scum ping on Dunn

The reasons for this GC vote is echoed later by stun. Like, basically a copy and paste.

Spoiler: C&P

Further, it seems that technically

GC supports all of Votato, Dunnstral, and Battle Mage being lynched based off their content so far. The fact that they are somewhat supporting all three of the current majority wagons, and also maintaining suspicions of bob, farside, Mala, and others makes it seem like GC's intent is to pin others against each other while GC sits back and watches town get confused

. This does not feel like town trying to sort, it feels like scum aggressively trying to keep options open. Further, throughout his ISO it feels like he is basically willing to lynch anybody except himself, which obviously gives more of an unsettling scum narrative vibe than a town one.

This is a legitimately bad understanding of developing D1 reads.

Also

and I'll attribute your mischaracterization of my stance on votato to your single-mindedness to Present A Scum Case and be a good town

I don't support a votato lynch, and have never said I did.

ALSO also


lol Mala is a null as I've said before


Hot damn you really wanted to make a case. Congrats, I suppose.

also obviously mala's suspicion of votato is bad, and her back-burner nonsense is silly, but lol nonetheless at farside and notscience

I’m townreading the whole wagon, who do you think is scum on it?

mala or bob, with me leaning towards bob

False. These posts clearly suggest that mala is scummy to you.

First farside, and then a ton of posts later stun, both wrongly characterized that because I said Mala's reason for suspecting votato/HK was

bad

, it must have meant that I was saying it was

scummy

. (I have repeatedly explained, before and since, why Mala's bad reasoning in these circumstances is NAI.)

Kinda weird that you can't come up with your own bad reasons to vote GC, stun.

[Green Crayons]

I'll catch up later, but for now:

VOTE: HK 50 - biggest wagon and he appears to have a horrible post restriction and needs to be put out of his misery.

First post and he already starts making excuses for himself to cover all bases. Voting for the biggest wagon is fine in early D1. But BM goes out of his way to try to justify it with a joke-ish follow up about the post restriction.

He does this later when he tries to come up with a multitude of conflicting defenses for his votato vote.

Shiiiiit, I just lost another game, as town, caused by me. Ironically, caused by me actually analysing stuff and not just tunnelling for once.

Just lynch me now PLEASE. :'(

VOTE: Battle Mage

Excellent, finally someone I can trust! UNVOTE: VOTE: Battle Mage

Always be suspicious of those who ask to be lynched and vote themselves.

[Statement:]

The lack of actual discussion is making my circuits moderately irritated. There cannot be ruthless slaughter like this.

VOTE: Dunnstral

Master Battle Mage feel free to explain the basis of your read.

Excellent, I thought you'd never ask!

Green Crayons Notes

He has played extremely safe and cautious, not really going out on a limb on anything, and only really focussing on either highlighting people's towniness, or criticising other's arguments for people's scumminess (which is generally easy for scum to do because they know who is actually scum). In his first 18 posts (all of them prior to my vote) he hadn't indicated suspicion of ANYONE. His only vote was a random vote on Farside - I know it was random because he made it very clear by saying "eenie meanie minie mo". The only other thing of note is that his 4th post was an apology (which incidentally was the thing which pinged me into doing an ISO) for being rude...only he hadn't really been that rude? by the standards of this site, it was about as courteous as a criticism gets. So the apology just seemed a bit OTT and like he was walking on eggshells. No meta yet, but an absence of town enthusiasm or active engagement - more of the commentating from the sidelines style.

This is just such a bad justification. I'm scum because I'm literally playing the game by

"highlighting people's towniness, or criticising other's arguments for people's scumminess"

Which is to say I'm calling people town, or figuring out who is pushing bad cases (basic scum hunting on D1).

And then somehow me engaging with people (farside, ns, dunn) on their bad case is me not having "active engagement."

It's a pretty disingenuous spin on viewing my play.

[Green Crayons]

I ask as at the moment i'm in a slight town reading mala. In my experience scum tends to avoid jumping on rvs wagons when they have already stacked up 3 votes. Either mala is scum and unafraid of the spotlight or as i feel at the moment a fellow townie that simply does not have anything to fear in the first place.

Only seen twice scum on 4thed place on rvs wagon. One was when scum was being rvs wagoned and the other was a scum player that spent much of the rest of the game jumping on wagons.


And mala comments on hk feel that it matches that pattern as well. Of a anotehr townie that inst afraid to get their neck stuck in and let thier views be known.

In my experience scum dont like being caught on large wagon in vs.

Take my last completed mini. Although i was on losing side if you looked back at day one. scum rvs voted me and as soon as i picked up my 4th vote. That Scum player was teh first to jump off. And infact tried to distance them selves from that wagon.

[Clarification:]

Expect you gave a strong case for why such a behavior is scummy and even provide evidence that scum tends to not commit to higher bandwagons in random voting stage. I'm aware it isn't identical, but my situation has aspects of that which to my photoreceptors indicates there should be some feeling one way or another based on my unvote.

I said theorically I'm scum from your point of view due in part by your own admission you were confused to why I am asking you this line of queries. I don't particularly care what the actual alignment is, but rather your thought process behind it in order to gague your master malakitten read.

[Demand:]

Look at that specific interaction of me unvoting. You given me the range I fall in, but only off the logic of me misconducting processing your point. Disregard that and analyze that temporal moment in space. What range would you rank that unvote to be in?

Your vote change from NS seems rather logical and well considered. It doesn't look to me like rash scum trying to get off. As i would have expected your vote change if you were scum to be more to the point. Abrupt even, while not really even making much acknowledging the change.

If there is scum on that rvs wagon of NS then my gut feeling is that if my read on you is right that you would have beaten them to the chase.

As far my slight town reads are you and mala. So if that rvs wagon wasn't all town then scum are likely in dunstral and pepper. Dunstals change was just sudden. Following the pushes of far and NS but with little extra input given. While peppers was little better but in reaction to Dunstals mala vote.

Now the question is. Was that rvs wagon all town. Which i have seen quite a few times and happens more than not.

Looking back at this interaction, I *really* don't like how HK baited bob into explaining to the town why bob saw HK's actions as town.

HK, I'd love to hear how your prompting supposedly came from a town POV.

[Green Crayons]

303

This point as already been brought up and explained days ago.

And according to his logic presented about RVS wagons (in the quotes you left out) it would of prompted a scum read on me.

I stopped at page 10 in my reread.

I like your 303 explanation.


I see your recent point about stun. Have you said who you find suspicious other than dunn (and, now, stun but only if he failed to address your rebuttal and instead just lobbed more accusations)?

[Green Crayons]

I hate that porkens claimed VT. I think scum would have claimed a PR here.

[Green Crayons]

At the moment my gut instinct is that BM/clidd/porkens is scum. And ever since clidd got wagoned Hk has kept trying to deflect attention away from the Bm/clidd wagon. He even keeps trying to dismiss anything bm might have done as not ai.

So you think porkens is scum because of how HK has treated the BM/Clidd/porkens slot, and you read HK as scum?

[Green Crayons]

UNVOTE: porkens

I'm going to pick up my reread from Page 11. I'm not against a porkens lynch at the end of the day, but I want to hear his thoughts first.

[Green Crayons]

If Porkens is scum, he just replaced into a 40-page game at L-1.

He's probably going to get lynched.

What is his best utility to his team?

Reveal a PR.

What is his worst utility to his team?

Get lynched without outing a PR.

[Green Crayons]

Scum have daytalk?

[Green Crayons]

I think you are overthinking if you are town here. Porkens and his supposed scumteam might not have even thought about that. They might have just gone with what was conveniently there so they would not be refuted/denied and lose a scum mate on D1. They want to protect him, because there is only supposedly 3 scum/13 players in this game.

Losing a member on D1 is a huge risk, any way you slice it, and so claiming something that could be refuted would possibly be seen as a bad move to them

This reads like you know scum have daytalk.

I don't know if I believe in scum slips but jeeze.

[Green Crayons]

Doesn't matter if they have daytalk -- it is unlikely that they pull a "let's out a power role stunt" IMO. How many times have you seen that happen on D1? And where?

I have never, as far as I'm aware.

You're telling me you have never seen a scum fake claim a PR?

That's seriously what you're saying?

[Green Crayons]

it is unlikely that they pull a "let's out a power role stunt" IMO. How many times have you seen that happen on D1? And where?

I have never, as far as I'm aware.

I have seen fake claims, but

not on D1 in a game like this

.

the bolded is doing all the work for you walking back.

what is the "game like this" that makes a L-1 replace-in PR fake claim anathema to scum?

[Green Crayons]

Like, suppose there are 13 players in this game. 1 is down on D1. A cop or tracker outs another on N1. They are lynched D2.

This angle you are coming from seems to be promoting possibility over probability, which I do not like, and seems scummy.

just lol

I'm trying to figure out likely scum tactics and you're over here guessing about how success a town PR might be, but i'm "promoting possibility over probability"

you're a complete mess

[Green Crayons]

Why, then, take such a big risk and fake claim?

H e ' s l i k e l y g o i n g t o d i e a n y w a y s.

[Green Crayons]

I said I have never on D1. You are twisting my words.

Like hell I am.

[Green Crayons]

What is so special about a "game like this" that makes a fake PR claim completely unfathomable? Because they might reveal a PR and get lynched (like he's likely to do anyway)?

[Green Crayons]

And also, I don't think Porkens is at L-1, he was at L-2, so now with your unvote he is at L-3.

This

is a fair point and doesn't make the replace-in nearly as bleak as the L-1 I thought it was.

[Green Crayons]

I have done and seen others do this very thing you are doing as scum, which is what concerns me. Moving off of a vanilla lynch to perhaps see if you can get another person to pass Porkens in the vote count and get another claim, and perhaps a powerrole claim comes out there. Makes total sense for scum to do.

please

1) differentiate between NAI conduct that can conform to scum alignment, and AI conduct.

2) maybe actually have the person you're accusing of the bad thing to do the bad thing

first

, before lobbing the accusation--so far I have unvoted porkens to allow him time to spit out opinions while I reread, but said I wasn't against his lynch because, frankly, I'm not sure I'm comfortable with a rushjob on anyone else atm

3) don't rely on "i have seens" because plenty of people have seen plenty of things, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything for the game at hand. i point you back to #1.

[Green Crayons]

yeah, geraintm, are you just against role claims as a matter of policy until the end of the game?

[Green Crayons]

because, while a bad policy, that's the only way I can make heads or tail of your comment.

[Green Crayons]

You used "they" in the active sense, like they are actively thinking about how best to have Porkens make his entrance.

[Green Crayons]

Wasn’t the original concept behind scumreading him associative with votato and bm

yeah but who pushed it initially, and where did it come from?

Why do I feel like you already know this answer?

[Green Crayons]

That was to votato

[Green Crayons]

I know I og suspected Dunn for voting Mala for reasons that he had pushed. (I forget what that was.)

Farside picked it up and ran with it tunneling for a long time.

[Green Crayons]

Not sure what other threads I’d suspicion were tbh

[Green Crayons]

What did you find so town about it?

Her insistence on focusing entirely on a single player, for a single reason (hypocrisy in early D1 voting), when town can be hypocritical, seemed like pretty suspicious scum play to me.

[Green Crayons]

i like Porkens posting

[Green Crayons]

@mod I request that you add 24 hours out of consideration for replacement

Seconded.

[Green Crayons]

i like Porkens posting

I do think his flip would be very informative associative wise, though.

[Green Crayons]

GC, why aren't you voting anyone right now?

Because I haven’t done my reread yet (work happens) and we got an extension.

[Green Crayons]

Question: could it also be a strategic ploy that GC hopped off of the Porkens wagon because he pushed it hard and would look scummy if the slot flipped town, so he had to back off?

My goodness you are bad.

[Green Crayons]

HOKAY!
I skimmed the shit out of the last 17 pages or so, as it’s getting late.

Here’s the deal:

The scumteam lies within geraintm, stungun, dunnstral, bob, and tato.

The push on GC that tato hopped on was literally pure garbage. Reads progression somehow becomes machinations. And despite the fact that GC fairly fought off the push, it keeps recurring. Stun and gerain both defend dunnstral. Bob has a TR on Dunn for some reason (also bob almost never expresses any reads, never commits). Gerain started playing and came in at a key moment, around 623

That being said, I have a real tinfoil hat read on an alternate universe team of DP, GC, and Malkittens.

Other stuff:
Farside, Crayons (ignoring my hat), notsci, and HK all read very town to me. I don’t see a universe where hk is scum.

Notmaf is being very notmaf.

So there you have it, you are welcome, I’m going to bed!


VOTE: dunnstrall

HOKAY!
I skimmed the shit out of the last 17 pages or so, as it’s getting late.

Here’s the deal:

The scumteam lies within geraintm, stungun, dunnstral, bob, and tato.

The push on GC that tato hopped on was literally pure garbage. Reads progression somehow becomes machinations. And despite the fact that GC fairly fought off the push, it keeps recurring. Stun and gerain both defend dunnstral. Bob has a TR on Dunn for some reason (also bob almost never expresses any reads, never commits). Gerain started playing and came in at a key moment, around 623

That being said, I have a real tinfoil hat read on an alternate universe team of DP, GC, and Malkittens.

Other stuff:
Farside, Crayons (ignoring my hat), notsci, and HK all read very town to me. I don’t see a universe where hk is scum.

Notmaf is being very notmaf.

So there you have it, you are welcome, I’m going to bed!


VOTE: dunnstrall

And Mala's kinda right. It's time we start settling on a lynch, with 13 hours left in the day, and I don't think this day phase will go anywhere than Porkens, unfortunately.

Thus, VOTE: Porkens

Unless anyone has any reason to think this day phase could possibly lead to another lynch,

There is a 1 ONE vote difference between me and your biggest scumread but “unfortunately” that’s just insurmountable? Also, he says

nothing

about the substance.

VOTE: porkens

Consolidating at this point

Consolidate elsewhere, the idea that there can’t be any other lynch is false. Again, Dunn has 1 less vote than I do.


Lynching Dunn will tell us a lot. There are clear associativas. BM tarnishes this slot so badly what do you learn about anything? Keep me around you won’t regret it.

Did you actually say why Dunn is worth your vote here? I don’t think so.


Also tell me more about these “clear associatives” that would come with a Dunn flip.

[Green Crayons]

Who the hell is scratchings

[Green Crayons]

Or Maris

[Green Crayons]

Goddammit NM I’m equally angry at you if that was a troll post or a real post with names for real players you made up.

[Green Crayons]

Battle Mage is today's lynch btw everyone

Battle Mage is definitely scum

Well I might be today's lynch, but I'm not scum dude! You selling anything else?

This post seems kinda too jokey to be scum. But I feel like the rest of the posting has been kind of incoherent.

But there's something I quite like about this post not being super defensive

FWIW I think BM's post goes beyond "not being super defensive" into "manufacturing trying to look super cool about the suspicion" territory

[Green Crayons]

Spoiler: ns vote on votato

As a new day broke out, Jake was found dead... asleep. Despite the wailing of the town to do his job, he stayed still all the same. Micc, the secretary, didn't do Jake's job for him, but instead woke him up.

Vote Count 1.6

Dunnstral (4):

DoctorPepper, farside22, HK 50, Green Crayons

HK 50 (2):

votato, bob3141

votato (2):

Malakittens, stungun0404

notscience (1):

geraintm

Malakittens (1):

Dunnstral

Battle Mage (1):

Not_Mafia

Green Crayons (1):

Battle Mage

Not voting (1):

notscience

---

Mod Notes:

Majority is 7 players.

Day 1 has begun and will end in (expired on 2020-06-22 07:23:04).[/area]

DP it doesnt look good for you 3/4 of us are already town you best town it up soon before the probabilities getcha

VOTE: Votato

Looks like an all green wagon there lets get this sucker moving

Mala
Bob
Robot
Farside
Stun

GC?

BM
DP
NM
Dunn

gera

votato

292 is a bad vote

Yeah, idg why ns voted votato. What does the all green bw even mean when there was only 2 votes?

ns, you ever explain/justify this?

[Green Crayons]

So my top 2 scum reads are Dunn/NS. Still debating on who the 3rds scum is but those 2 are my strongest ones.

Did you ever explain your ns read? Do you still read ns as scum?

[Green Crayons]

Yeah, idg why ns voted votato. What does the all green bw even mean when there was only 2 votes?

ns, you ever explain/justify this?

Oh, okay so you did:

Games over

I spent two game days

Basically a goddamn month

Watching votato lurk to a scum win

My votes not lazy.

mmmmmmmmmmmmmeh

not a great reason but also not scum indicative imo

[Green Crayons]

So my top 2 scum reads are Dunn/NS. Still debating on who the 3rds scum is but those 2 are my strongest ones.

Did you ever explain your ns read? Do you still read ns as scum?

Oh boy I keep doing this.

Explained:

As for NS well I don't like his vote on you. He ignored the Dunn wagon and his reads here really have no explanation.
Like BM for example was pretty much not saying much, Gera hasn't offered much but he went with voting for you over others.
Why the criticism for DP?
I get the impression the list is a reason for him not to vote for Dunn.

Although farside sprinkles other bits in there, the running theme is that ns is scummy because he's avoiding Dunn (who farside is reading as scummy).

I think that's more likely to come from town than scum, as it's easier for town to convince themselves they're right on their primary suspect and start finding others suspicious based on that.

[Green Crayons]

^^^ you jumped ahead 300 posts.

But skimming those 600s posts makes me wonder:

@Mala:

has ns pocketed you? what are your thoughts on ns?