Mini Normal 2148 (Post Game)

[bob3141]

VOTE: Hk50

Before robots take over the world

[bob3141]

Herrrrrrro everyone.

VOTE: ns

Also HK50 posting style is funny.
I kinda have to agree with Dunn that I saw Vot’s post regarding HK50 as a “why do they know so much about his posting style”

I have feeling who HK 50 might be.

Might be another player that likes the odd fun gimmick.

[bob3141]

Green I don't quite get where you Vote on farside is coming from. Is it a RVS vote or do you have some sort of scum lean towards him so far. As you don't seem to have actually called him scum once, at all. Even though you have critiqued a few of his posts while having your vote on his slot.

Take teh post that state your opinion on farside suspecting mala over the hk related events. But do you actually suspect him based on this to be scum. You seem to be more finding the very notion of players suspecting mala over this to be humorous.

[bob3141]

See the thing that I found odd is 2 things
1) In regards to mala is that she said she thought them scum together and wanted to keep that on the back burner even when it was just a reference to a video game. So that just made no sense this early in the game.
2) was this post from GC:

also obviously mala's suspicion of votato is bad, and her back-burner nonsense is silly, but lol nonetheless at farside and notscience

Which to me reads that, well he agrees that everything mala said looks bad or silly but it's scummy to point that out. Then he says this:

her back-burner nonsense is silly

So that reads a lot more asshole than I intended.

But. Like. Anyone who has played videogames and likes Star Wars knows the reference. There's nothing to back burner.

Again that was in my post that he disagreed with. So none of his disagreement match with what he is saying after.


VOTE: Green Crayon

Also funny enough I now have a scum ping on Dunn

So how strong was your read on mala at that point. As it feels more to me like someone poking a small bump in the lawn. Than a suspected ants nest. ( i know i'm bad at analogies )

You say certainly scum read her to some degree but if mala is scum then why are your voting for green now?

As you haven't said you no longer suspect mala. But if you still think mala could be scum even if it is weak reads so far. Then what do you think greens motive would be.

As rather i get teh impression from greens actions that if he is scum. Then it feels more like him trying to white knight a fellow townie rather than instead trying to deflect us from suspecting mala.

[bob3141]

You know I’m glad I played a game with you before because that comment is just eh.

Yeah, I'm glad there are a few people here I've played with so my day1ness wont be too much of a problem

The last game was fun and so tiring at the same time. Although i did get some fun out of punishing scum for no killing twice. Ild find it hilarious if it turns out mala has infact rolled scum again after repping into that game.

[bob3141]

Hey farside

I tend read the threads backwards. Hope you didnt feel like i was being rude

[bob3141]

I ask as at the moment i'm in a slight town reading mala. In my experience scum tends to avoid jumping on rvs wagons when they have already stacked up 3 votes. Either mala is scum and unafraid of the spotlight or as i feel at the moment a fellow townie that simply does not have anything to fear in the first place.

Only seen twice scum on 4thed place on rvs wagon. One was when scum was being rvs wagoned and the other was a scum player that spent much of the rest of the game jumping on wagons.


And mala comments on hk feel that it matches that pattern as well. Of a anotehr townie that inst afraid to get their neck stuck in and let thier views be known.

[bob3141]

In my experience scum dont like being caught on large wagon in vs.

Take my last completed mini. Although i was on losing side if you looked back at day one. scum rvs voted me and as soon as i picked up my 4th vote. That Scum player was teh first to jump off. And infact tried to distance them selves from that wagon.

[bob3141]

Oddly that game i just finished with you was the first scum lol hammer ive seen. In one game Ive seen 3 different town lol hammers town 3 times. Even one of the scum was latter lol hammered too. He ended up trolling us in the twlight that got up to 25 pages.

[bob3141]

Either mala is scum and unafraid of the spotlight or as i feel at the moment a fellow townie that simply does not have anything to fear in the first place.

[Recitation:]

Master bob3141, may I need to remind you I unvoted when the Notscience wagon reached four?

[Query:]

If your experience states that scum tends to hop off a band wagon during random voting, which for the record master I find to be a highly ridiculous notion, then what is your current position on my true alignment considering the after mention switch off?

I dont quite get why your jumping on me pointing out that scum are far more likley to jump off a rvs wagon when it reaches 4 then to be the actual one to push it to 4.

[bob3141]

Either mala is scum and unafraid of the spotlight or as i feel at the moment a fellow townie that simply does not have anything to fear in the first place.

[Recitation:]

Master bob3141, may I need to remind you I unvoted when the Notscience wagon reached four?

[Query:]

If your experience states that scum tends to hop off a band wagon during random voting, which for the record master I find to be a highly ridiculous notion, then what is your current position on my true alignment considering the after mention switch off?

I dont quite get why your jumping on me pointing out that scum are far more likley to jump off a rvs wagon when it reaches 4 then to be the actual one to push it to 4.

[Statement:]

I prefer targets to jump towards me. That way they land on the cyropellet landmine.

However, you stated that scum is much more likely to hope off when it reaches four votes. That's what my action was. Hence I'm curious to see what read you have on me, as theoretically I should be likely to be scum as well. Rather or not I pushed it shouldn't matter with how you phrased the original logic or this continuation of it.

That's the thing you have made the premise that i have said the first one to unvote is scum. When in fact that's either misrepresentation or misconstruing what i said. And even from that misrep or miscon your equity for being a fellow townie would simply be less than malas in my eyes. But not excluding you from in fact being town.

Rvs wagons range from scum range from all town to scummy. So a player bening first to unvote doesn't have any bearing on their scum equity. As it could range from the first unvote being self conscious scum to simply benign the first of 4 townies to unvote.

[bob3141]

I ask as at the moment i'm in a slight town reading mala. In my experience scum tends to avoid jumping on rvs wagons when they have already stacked up 3 votes. Either mala is scum and unafraid of the spotlight or as i feel at the moment a fellow townie that simply does not have anything to fear in the first place.

Only seen twice scum on 4thed place on rvs wagon. One was when scum was being rvs wagoned and the other was a scum player that spent much of the rest of the game jumping on wagons.


And mala comments on hk feel that it matches that pattern as well. Of a anotehr townie that inst afraid to get their neck stuck in and let thier views be known.

In my experience scum dont like being caught on large wagon in vs.

Take my last completed mini. Although i was on losing side if you looked back at day one. scum rvs voted me and as soon as i picked up my 4th vote. That Scum player was teh first to jump off. And infact tried to distance them selves from that wagon.

[Clarification:]

Expect you gave a strong case for why such a behavior is scummy and even provide evidence that scum tends to not commit to higher bandwagons in random voting stage. I'm aware it isn't identical, but my situation has aspects of that which to my photoreceptors indicates there should be some feeling one way or another based on my unvote.

I said theorically I'm scum from your point of view due in part by your own admission you were confused to why I am asking you this line of queries. I don't particularly care what the actual alignment is, but rather your thought process behind it in order to gague your master malakitten read.

[Demand:]

Look at that specific interaction of me unvoting. You given me the range I fall in, but only off the logic of me misconducting processing your point. Disregard that and analyze that temporal moment in space. What range would you rank that unvote to be in?

Your vote change from NS seems rather logical and well considered. It doesn't look to me like rash scum trying to get off. As i would have expected your vote change if you were scum to be more to the point. Abrupt even, while not really even making much acknowledging the change.

If there is scum on that rvs wagon of NS then my gut feeling is that if my read on you is right that you would have beaten them to the chase.

As far my slight town reads are you and mala. So if that rvs wagon wasn't all town then scum are likely in dunstral and pepper. Dunstals change was just sudden. Following the pushes of far and NS but with little extra input given. While peppers was little better but in reaction to Dunstals mala vote.

Now the question is. Was that rvs wagon all town. Which i have seen quite a few times and happens more than not.

[bob3141]

I think Mala isn't scum for not knowing a video game reference from Star Wars. Hell I am a fan and I didn't get it

I think Mala's 90 is a good post. Idk I would think scum would be quite brash and adamant in their posting so I think Mala is town for admitting to the rocky start

I am not liking painting her as scum for this interaction. Not a fan of the votes on her and the person leading it

VOTE: Dunnstral

I could go Dunn or farside for the Mala push rn tbh

That second questions open to DP and farside too before I effort and read those wall posts from bob and bot

Dunnstral

So you said you would vote far or dun over their mala push. Was that the reason for your vote on dun as in that post you talked about how you felt that mala was town. Rather than talking about your read on dun. Was it duns mala vote that spurned your vote? If so what about dun lead you to scum read him enough to vote.

With all you later mentioning in post 99 about dun and farside in relation to their push on mala.

Since both dun and far and even NS voted mala prior to your dun posts. What is your read on those two players that you didn't vote for. Why dun over them.

[bob3141]

VOTE: Malakittens

You are mafia

Por que?

I don't like the way you went about the early game, votato + hk50, and then the notscience vote

You say your original read on mala was based on you claiming town wouldn't try and make partner connections so early in the game. But outside of mala comments relating to that what is your read on mala. With bit in relation to mala NS vote

As i don't get where the scum read on mala is coming from. As the comments you are basing your scum read on feel more like off the cuff remarks that don't feel like they have an agenda. Rather than scum intending to push a hk50 or vots lynch by saying their actions mean they are scum. While not actually saying why they think each one is individually scum. Ive seen that, i do feel that is what mala did.

Also what ddi you think about mala NS was scummy as you said you didn't like it?

And do you have any town read or other scum reads so far as you have only mentioned mala so far.

[bob3141]

I'm not voting mala for not getting a reference, I hope that helps

So then care to explain the reasoning behind why you think that mala is scum. As to me mala feels quite townie.

Do you have any other reads than your scum read of mala?

[bob3141]

Vota what is your current scum and town leans?

What is your feeling on the different wagons that have happened so far?

[bob3141]

Vota what is your current scum and town leans?

What is your feeling on the different wagons that have happened so far?

I'm sad that none of the wagons have been on me. I deserve to be wagoned. I think bob and notsci are likely town. Unsure about scum

I can make you less sad if you want

[bob3141]

gun to my head, if i had to peg someone as scum it would be farside.

and i like it when men make me happy, so pls do, Mr. Bob.

VOTE: Vota

So if you were to put a serious vote down who would it be and why?
As although you say you're not sure who scum is. Surely at this point in the game you would have at least some idea if you were town. Even if they were weak feelings.

As i don't really see any attempt from you to become informed either. As you say you're unsure on who scum is but wouldn't you be pushing somewhere in order to try and sort someone, even anyone. If you were town.


And tell us your reasoning behind your town read on me and notsc. As it's very easy to throw out town reads. If you are town then at least show us your reasoning so we can tell if your reads are genuine reads that come from town. Or simply some one line reads that a scum you have thrown out. To try and buy time.

[bob3141]

probably town? Dunno, there are mostly just questions coming from hk and not much analysis

I will say, I don't really like that your vote is on HK if you think he is probably town... we are past RVS.

VOTE: battle mage

i didnt say i think HK is town. i just said i dont have a strong read and the content is mostly questions but not actual analysis. dunno what to do with my vote yet, but BM is always a good vote.

ok that answers the first half of my post.

[bob3141]

I saw battle mage playing similar to this as town.

Is that the only other than you think mala is scum and battle reminds you of one of his town games?


This is the players on your wagon so far:

DoctorPepper, farside22, HK 50, notscience, stungun0404

And these are on your one claimed town read

Not_Mafia, votato, Green Crayons

While your one scum read in on vot.


And since if you are town you would know that your town. What do you read of the players on the wagons that you know or think or town. And at the same time the wagon of the player that your scum read mala is pushing>

[bob3141]

Is that the only other read that you have. That you think mala is scum and battle reminds you of one of his town games?


These are the players on your wagon so far:

DoctorPepper, farside22, HK 50, notscience, stungun0404

And the below are on your one claimed town read

Not_Mafia, votato, Green Crayons

While your one scum read is on vot.


And since if you are town you would know that your town. What do you read of the players on the wagons that you know or think or town. And at the same time the wagon of the player that your scum read mala is pushing


corrected a bit of the gramma

[bob3141]

So you said you would vote far or dun over their mala push. Was that the reason for your vote on dun as in that post you talked about how you felt that mala was town. Rather than talking about your read on dun. Was it duns mala vote that spurned your vote? If so what about dun lead you to scum read him enough to vote.

With all you later mentioning in post 99 about dun and farside in relation to their push on mala.

Since both dun and far and even NS voted mala prior to your dun posts. What is your read on those two players that you didn't vote for. Why dun over them.

This feels like it's overcomplicating my Dunn vote and kinda feels like a buddy/protect to Dunn.

Simply put, Dunn's Mala push was really disingenuous and very reachy. I disliked it because it painted Mala as scummy for something that wasn't even AI.

See i don't feel scum wouldn't at least try and divert pressure by either elaborating/extending or simply abandon his mala read. If mala was scum i would have expected him to either double down on his mala read and try and come up with fresh reasons to push mala over. Or just try to drop it and hope town forgets.

Which is giving me a gut feeling that dun is a fellow towny. As, if dun was scum I would have expected him to push a scum read on mala over something else, anything. If he was scum I would have expected him to try and fake a scum read on mala over his vote on vot.



You have said your original dun vote wasn't complicated and due to you feeling duns vote was “really disingenuous and very reachy”. But why do you think he really isn't trying to actually deflect attention from himself now if he was scum. I would have thought if my read was wrong on him and he is scum. Then i would have thought he would have doubled down on his mala read or tried to row it back. He has done neither.

And these swings back to dunn. A wagon forms on vot forms and quickly it breaks up with several of those on vot switching to dun.

So what leads you to a different conclusion that dun simply inst bad town?

[bob3141]

I’m townreading the whole wagon, who do you think is scum on it?

If you were town reading the entire vot wagon. Then why so quick to jump onto dun?

If vot inst scum then why do you think dun if he was scum would have tried to jump on the back of the vot wagon. And why do you think scum wouldn't try to jump onto a wagon you feel is rather towny?

[bob3141]

GC has a fair point, geraintm is still voting not science based off RVS reasoning, which is just a very lazy vote park that is not seemingly going to get us anywhere this day phase. I'm not real fond of it.

it is lazy. i'll move it though when i have somewhere better to move it to. i am notgoing to move it simply for the sake of moving it. that is the sort of thing i dislike others doing so i am not going to do it myself

But surely you want to get more informed. Why not pick some to vote. Even if it's just to pressure them a bit to get more content from them so that you can get more info to form a stronger read. Whether it's a town or scum ,lean.

If your town it's just looking like you're trying to sit away from the action. As this is even a low level of pro-activity for you.


What do you think of the different wagons that have formed? And do you get any reads from any of the different pushes players have made?


VOTE: germa

I think a little fire needs to be lite under your feet

[bob3141]

I remember the first time I played with you where getting a read on you was like trying to get blood out of stone.

[bob3141]

I remember the first time I played with you where getting a read on you was like trying to get blood out of stone.

What was his alignment?

He was town that game but it was hard to tell if he was town being stubborn or simply scum that didn't want to commit. If he is scum this game, on that I wouldn't expect him to really differ that much from his town meta though. As his town meta is so strongly anti day one it would be such a uturn if he did.

Since i've really only ever done a quick skim of his scum meta. I can't really say for sure if this is germa being stubborn town again or if this scum germa and he is simply stubborn all round.

[bob3141]

you're awfully defensive GC. your tone doesn't seem very town to me.

in fact, you remind me a lot of mathblade!scum. If others aren't sold on GC so far outside of the ones on his wagon, I can show you similarities between GC's game this game and a game I played where Mathblade was scum, because in some ways they have been strikingly similar.

I've never played with mathblade scum and think only one town game for one day. So it's a bit hard to get the tell tale signs that you've seen in math that you claim to believe that green is also exhibiting this game.

Are you saying you can see scum motivation behind some of greens actions that mirror what a mathblade would do in this game. Or more general thing.

[bob3141]

I’ts very hard considering I’m having trouble figuring you out rn

I think so far this is least AI germa has been in any game ive played with him so far.

The first time when i felt he was town. When i managed to derail his lynch as i saw slight signs he was town. The wagon switched to me as everyoen was scum reading germa.

And you know about the last. His stuborn vote on trollie convinced me he was scum planing to force a last minute lynch on 3 players i thought were town. trollie, drew and danny. rather than you doing that

[bob3141]

woah, Canyons is not letting this drop. I am not sure what to make of this *right now* but I want to keep it in mind for later in the game when we know more about canyons and Battle Mage/their replacement.

it seems overly forced

So germa your first real read is to say that green isn't letting his BM read go. And that it feels forced. But what about it feels forced to you? And the fact your implying its something he should drop. Does that mean you think greens push itself is scummy or just misguided?

So what is your read on both green and BM?

Now at the moment my gut feeling on green is whether right or wrong on BM, greens read does feel genuine. As I'm not surprised a fellow townie wouldnt drop his read if he thinks it has not properly been addressed. In another game I got exasperated when a player I was sure was scum kept dodging my questions. And everyone else was just ignoring it.

[bob3141]

Like, 637 suggests you would at least want to vote NM instead of your random vote.

But nope.

Are you paralyzed by doubt? Lazy? Scum? Who knows!

You *not* updating your vote is going to make sorting you much more difficult in later days.

doubt I guess. I want my vote to actually mean something. i'd rather everyone placed fully formed votes, rather than people who place 27 in a day. that isn't helpful either when trying to sort them. at least you know when I vote I mean it.

Germa there is one thing not voting until you're sure, if there is plenty of time still till deadline but it's entirely different not giving reads either way. There are 13 players in this game and one of them is you. I find it impossible if your town that you haven't at the very least got some slight reads. Maybe not strong reads but reads at least slightly off null.


Clearly one vote is not enough pressure to get you to actually post some basic content. At this stage you have less committal content then bambi last game. And we collectively let him lurk that game.

If you're not scum then. Not even giving us some basic reads makes it harder for us to sort you. Risking us being tricked into mislynching you.

[bob3141]

I hate to say it but I’m still ok with a Dunn lynch. As much as I didn’t like BM’s posts.. the SG flop is going to be a turn off right now in terms of voting there until I sort that out. Gera is off the table for today, but note I’m not sold on him being scum
Or town. He’s really null for me; the same with NM.

My gut feeling is that dun is town. As i just can't see scum blatantly making blank votes on a player claiming to scum read him and the other going wagon. It feels too blatant for scum. Would have thought that if he is scum then he would have tried dressing it up, instead he simply posts a series of quotes and doesn't say why they lead him to scum reading not mafia.

Would scum real vote for someone when their last comment on that player was that he had in fact had no read on them. If he was scum i would have expected something along the lines of something between a few short sentences to several paragraphs.

[bob3141]

I have not advocated for your lynch/actively pushed evidence for others to vote you since I switched to voting BM, whereas in your case you were actively stuck on voting BM while pushing evidence to support a Dunnstral lynch, which is highly inconsistent and only can encourage what was already the biggest wagon that has formed this day phase. Thus, those are two entirely different scenarios. How, then, are they the exact same thing?

You suspect both BM and GC, and switched from voting GC to BM. You obviously still suspect GC. Mala finds that suspicious.

I suspect both Dunn and BM, and switched from voting Dunn to BM. I obviously still suspect Dunn. stun finds that suspicious.

ToWn CaN sUsPeCt MuLtIpLe PeOpLe At ThE sAmE tImE.

Yeah, I guess the only reason I suspected you in this case was because Dunnstral was the leading wagon, whereas in my case neither BM nor GC have been leading wagons this day phase.

But your point is fair enough.

So why would you only suspect green due to dun being the leading wagon. I don't see why green actions regarding the dun wagon would really impact your desire to vote either way between them. As it's something that never really changed between your vote on green and your vote on BM.

So why in effect would you side with BM against green by voting green. If it was simply a matter of green finding a dun lynch acceptable. As for him to be scum at most half the dun wagon must at least be town. What made you think that green at the time was scum happy with both Bm and duns mislynch. Rather than green potential believing that both were good lynch candidates. As with something so little I would have expected you based on your claimed belief that there is one scum in green/BM. To first vote BM first but pressure green over his reasons.

[bob3141]

Finally, from the BM/Clidd angle, which is long like the Votato one, but all but seals the deal on this scumteam for me.

Spoiler: Scumteam Case from BM's posts

First note: when the Votato wagon was a thing. Guess who was on the wagon? That's right! Battle Mage joined it 4th (after Mala/me/Bob) and did so with very weak reasoning in his 343, while HK remained on Dunnstral (the majority wagon with limited pushback). This holds true to the theory of scum having to distance on a possible majority wagon on a partner, but also having to join a wagon on a partner.

I am currently a few pages into reading, but would like to make a request. @HK50, I love your posting style -- so nothing against it -- but could you possibly use less sophisticated words to get your points across? I can understand what you are saying if I really spend time looking into your every post, but it is very hard to read some of your posts on the surface.

Another reason I ask this is because using a ton of more complicated words makes it more difficult than normal to read your intentions. This posting style could be extremely effective for scum to hide behind, because it is an easy way for them to blanket their intentions, because a lot more effort is needed than typical to truly ***ess their motives.

And if you are town, then it should make sense why this could become an issue. Because if people are having to spend too much time looking at a townplayer's posts to unpack their motives, it takes away from their focus of scumhunting, which absolutely could lead us down the wrong path in the long run.

Yep to me CG reads as town. I was a bit unsure on your vote change from CG to BM for a bit but it does look now like sew saw vote swing rather than flip flop. By sew saw i mean it feels like you were genuinely unsure as opposed to scum trying to first push green and then only moving when it failed.


As I myself was at first a bit suspicious of him too at first when he first pushed the claim that his push on bm caused the dun wagon to strength again. Rather than the leading wagon at the time. Which was vota at the time. While bm wagon was only green, not and vot. And neither nm or vota were really pushing that one strongly at all. Of the three only green was actually pushing a case.

But looking back I can sort of see what he is saying. As soon as he pushed bm over his vota vote dun did sort of pick up. And vota suddenly died in favour of dun.

At the time I thought my pressure vote had found something as my gut was telling me dun was likely town. So i found it interesting that as soon as vot was wagoned, the dun wagon gained new vigor.


I completely agree with this, his posts are pretty unreadable for me too because of the format. But I also think it's a very conspicuous posting style and a lot of effort for scum to keep up with minimal value, so slight townlean.

Like, if scum, why bother?

Battle Mage also sticks up for HK here. And is interestingly the first and only if I remember correctly to stick up for him there.

Votato votes are lazy. I bet one of y'all are scum.

Challenge accepted!

VOTE: Votato

I like the meta analysis by stungun, clearly nobody is getting behind Green Crayons, and I think I'm townleaning Dunnstral. And seriously, voting BM on Day 1? This dude has run out of ideas...

Here is the weak reason BM joined the Votato wagon: it was after interpreting my NAI meta analysis to be

AI

. That is a stretch. Is it because they are scum partners?

@Votato:

are you a pathetic *** scum?

A little harsh, but I did employ some artistic licence

On serious note,

Green Crayons queuing up Votato for some dodgy self-meta; 2 scum down?

BM sets up a GC link to Votato, interestingly, perhaps to mislynch later if Votato flips?

Does anyone have experience with scum Dunnstral? I have only played with town Dunnstral as scum to my recollection (2 times).

I know that as town he is not the hardest player to sort, but he still is a little bit tricky. He is easier to sort than nm for sure.

Also, he might get easier by the day, but he also might not. So I am not totally against a lynch there, but would just prefer to keep him in for two reasons. One is he is one of the few players I have experience with, so I might be able to read him better as the game progresses. And two, I do not really find what he has done so far to be super scummy, and if anything the push against him gives me a slight intuition he might be town. I could be wrong there, and I would like to see him post more, but I am not super suspicious.

I do think it is very likely, however, that if one Votato/Dunn is scum, the other is not, and should be ***umed to be town. I just don't see them as connected, as votato has made very little mention of Dunn in his posts and Dunn throwing votato out of the blue as a scum partner to someone... wouldn't seem like the smartest plan if they were scum partners? I mean, that's a little bold, drawing that much attention to you

and

your partner?

I've seen scum-Dunnstral once. He tried harder than this and seemed more engaged in a game where he replaced in maybe 60 pages deep - definitely feels town here. Agree with top half of your post, last para doesn't sound right to me. In my recent experience, scum often make little mention of their buddies to avoid ***ociations being drawn.

But lynching Vot-scum first is the play, and then decide whether to bite for his stungun 'slip'. Gut says probably not

.

He still is sheeping me on Votato because of my "meta analysis", but he again is the only one to throw out the possibility of Votato and me in fact being scum together, actually taking Votato's "slip" post somewhat seriously, which is so called a "slip" because of these posts from Votato:

i have a little but i cant talk about it. by day 2 or 3 ill probably give some more details. as for the ***ociation you're drawing between me and dunn, stun, you're right that we aren't scumbuddies, but i dont think your reasons why are all that strong.

plus the only reason you know that is cuz you and i are scumbuddies

.

*** wrong thread.

Finally, the icing on the cake:

i have a little but i cant talk about it. by day 2 or 3 ill probably give some more details. as for the association you're drawing between me and dunn, stun, you're right that we aren't scumbuddies, but i dont think your reasons why are all that strong. plus the only reason you know that is cuz you and i are scumbuddies.

*** wrong thread.

Last time I saw something like this it flipped town, but what can ya do!?

He uses this scumslip for reason to townread Votato

I am convinced this is the scum team. I think we should lynch them consecutively.

Also note all three of Votato, BM and GC have weakly sheep-voted people, using players as shields.

Votato sheeping me immediately onto GC, BM very weakly sheeping me onto Votato, and HK weakly sheeping Farside and others onto Dunnstral without bringing any new evidence to the table regarding Dunnstral!scum.

Thus, it seems voting Clidd is the right move here.

[bob3141]

dont know what happened there.

[bob3141]

I have not advocated for your lynch/actively pushed evidence for others to vote you since I switched to voting BM, whereas in your case you were actively stuck on voting BM while pushing evidence to support a Dunnstral lynch, which is highly inconsistent and only can encourage what was already the biggest wagon that has formed this day phase. Thus, those are two entirely different scenarios. How, then, are they the exact same thing?

You suspect both BM and GC, and switched from voting GC to BM. You obviously still suspect GC. Mala finds that suspicious.

I suspect both Dunn and BM, and switched from voting Dunn to BM. I obviously still suspect Dunn. stun finds that suspicious.

ToWn CaN sUsPeCt MuLtIpLe PeOpLe At ThE sAmE tImE.

Yeah, I guess the only reason I suspected you in this case was because Dunnstral was the leading wagon, whereas in my case neither BM nor GC have been leading wagons this day phase.

But your point is fair enough.

So why would you only suspect green due to dun being the leading wagon? I don't see why green actions regarding the dun wagon would really impact your desire to vote either way between them. As it's something that never really changed between your vote on green and your vote on BM.

So why in effect would you side with BM against green by voting green. If it was simply a matter of green finding a dun lynch acceptable. As for him to be scum at most half the dun wagon must at least be town. What made you think that green at the time was scum happy with both Bm and duns mislynch. Rather than green potential believing that both were good lynch candidates. As with something so little I would have expected you based on your claimed belief that there is one scum in green/BM. To first vote BM first but pressure green over his reasons.

Honestly, the only reason I suspected GC because of being scum due to his pushing of dun who was the leading wagon while voting BM was because I was very zeroed in on seeing GC scum at that point in time, although I am pretty sure now I was wrong. Since I have been thinking one of GC/BM is town and the other is scum, thinking that GC was scum at the time, I thought he was voting for a convenient BM lynch, while also pushing forward what I have been thinking is likely a town Dunnstral wagon all along. Thus, if I thought both of those were likely town at one point, it would make sense why I included those reasons in my case for suspecting Green.

Obviously, my view on BM has flipped, however and I very much am confident thinking Clidd/BM is the true scum in the two right now. I think I initially tunneled too hard on GC simply because of him seeming so similar to Mathblade!scum that it pinged me so hard in many ways.

Yep to me CG reads as town. I was a bit unsure on your vote change from CG to BM for a bit but it does look now like sew saw vote swing rather than flip flop. By sew saw i mean it feels like you were genuinely unsure as opposed to scum trying to first push green and then only moving when it failed.


As I myself was at first a bit suspicious of him too at first when he first pushed the claim that his push on bm caused the dun wagon to strength again. Rather than the leading wagon at the time. Which was vota at the time. While bm wagon was only green, not and vot. And neither nm or vota were really pushing that one strongly at all. Of the three only green was actually pushing a case.

But looking back I can sort of see what he is saying. As soon as he pushed bm over his vota vote dun did sort of pick up. And vota suddenly died in favour of dun.

At the time I thought my pressure vote had found something as my gut was telling me dun was likely town. So i found it interesting that as soon as vot was wagoned, the dun wagon gained new vigor.

[bob3141]

Finally, from the BM/Clidd angle, which is long like the Votato one, but all but seals the deal on this scumteam for me.

Spoiler: Scumteam Case from BM's posts

First note: when the Votato wagon was a thing. Guess who was on the wagon? That's right! Battle Mage joined it 4th (after Mala/me/Bob) and did so with very weak reasoning in his 343, while HK remained on Dunnstral (the majority wagon with limited pushback). This holds true to the theory of scum having to distance on a possible majority wagon on a partner, but also having to join a wagon on a partner.

I am currently a few pages into reading, but would like to make a request. @HK50, I love your posting style -- so nothing against it -- but could you possibly use less sophisticated words to get your points across? I can understand what you are saying if I really spend time looking into your every post, but it is very hard to read some of your posts on the surface.

Another reason I ask this is because using a ton of more complicated words makes it more difficult than normal to read your intentions. This posting style could be extremely effective for scum to hide behind, because it is an easy way for them to blanket their intentions, because a lot more effort is needed than typical to truly ***ess their motives.

And if you are town, then it should make sense why this could become an issue. Because if people are having to spend too much time looking at a townplayer's posts to unpack their motives, it takes away from their focus of scumhunting, which absolutely could lead us down the wrong path in the long run.

I completely agree with this, his posts are pretty unreadable for me too because of the format. But I also think it's a very conspicuous posting style and a lot of effort for scum to keep up with minimal value, so slight townlean.

Like, if scum, why bother?

Battle Mage also sticks up for HK here. And is interestingly the first and only if I remember correctly to stick up for him there.

Votato votes are lazy. I bet one of y'all are scum.

Challenge accepted!

VOTE: Votato

I like the meta analysis by stungun, clearly nobody is getting behind Green Crayons, and I think I'm townleaning Dunnstral. And seriously, voting BM on Day 1? This dude has run out of ideas...

Here is the weak reason BM joined the Votato wagon: it was after interpreting my NAI meta analysis to be

AI

. That is a stretch. Is it because they are scum partners?

@Votato:

are you a pathetic *** scum?

A little harsh, but I did employ some artistic licence

On serious note,

Green Crayons queuing up Votato for some dodgy self-meta; 2 scum down?

BM sets up a GC link to Votato, interestingly, perhaps to mislynch later if Votato flips?

Does anyone have experience with scum Dunnstral? I have only played with town Dunnstral as scum to my recollection (2 times).

I know that as town he is not the hardest player to sort, but he still is a little bit tricky. He is easier to sort than nm for sure.

Also, he might get easier by the day, but he also might not. So I am not totally against a lynch there, but would just prefer to keep him in for two reasons. One is he is one of the few players I have experience with, so I might be able to read him better as the game progresses. And two, I do not really find what he has done so far to be super scummy, and if anything the push against him gives me a slight intuition he might be town. I could be wrong there, and I would like to see him post more, but I am not super suspicious.

I do think it is very likely, however, that if one Votato/Dunn is scum, the other is not, and should be ***umed to be town. I just don't see them as connected, as votato has made very little mention of Dunn in his posts and Dunn throwing votato out of the blue as a scum partner to someone... wouldn't seem like the smartest plan if they were scum partners? I mean, that's a little bold, drawing that much attention to you

and

your partner?

I've seen scum-Dunnstral once. He tried harder than this and seemed more engaged in a game where he replaced in maybe 60 pages deep - definitely feels town here. Agree with top half of your post, last para doesn't sound right to me. In my recent experience, scum often make little mention of their buddies to avoid ***ociations being drawn.

But lynching Vot-scum first is the play, and then decide whether to bite for his stungun 'slip'. Gut says probably not

.

He still is sheeping me on Votato because of my "meta analysis", but he again is the only one to throw out the possibility of Votato and me in fact being scum together, actually taking Votato's "slip" post somewhat seriously, which is so called a "slip" because of these posts from Votato:

i have a little but i cant talk about it. by day 2 or 3 ill probably give some more details. as for the ***ociation you're drawing between me and dunn, stun, you're right that we aren't scumbuddies, but i dont think your reasons why are all that strong.

plus the only reason you know that is cuz you and i are scumbuddies

.

*** wrong thread.

Finally, the icing on the cake:

i have a little but i cant talk about it. by day 2 or 3 ill probably give some more details. as for the association you're drawing between me and dunn, stun, you're right that we aren't scumbuddies, but i dont think your reasons why are all that strong. plus the only reason you know that is cuz you and i are scumbuddies.

*** wrong thread.

Last time I saw something like this it flipped town, but what can ya do!?

He uses this scumslip for reason to townread Votato

I am convinced this is the scum team. I think we should lynch them consecutively.

Also note all three of Votato, BM and GC have weakly sheep-voted people, using players as shields.

Votato sheeping me immediately onto GC, BM very weakly sheeping me onto Votato, and HK weakly sheeping Farside and others onto Dunnstral without bringing any new evidence to the table regarding Dunnstral!scum.

Thus, it seems voting Clidd is the right move here.

I can sort of see what you mean. BM vote on vota does look overly scummy to be made by scum unless scum wanted us to find it suspect.

It would explain why no one really tried to push vota after that. The wagon quickly broke up with new pushes on dun following its break up. If BM was scum and vota town i would have expected him to double down and continue pushing Vota but after his vote he doesn't do much in that regards. Instead he pushes a counter push on green. And he doesn't even push dun himself, in fact pushing a town read there.

It does feel sort of suspect looking back. Bm makes a scummy vote on vota. The vota wagon gets quickly abandoned and when he is benign suspect he makes a weak push on dun being town. All the while never really trying to explain how he managed to come to the opposite conclusion using one of your points. Until just before he repped out.

[bob3141]

Scum is fine with the status quo and is not eager to move away and slash or are fine to bus a partner (dunn/clidd) potentially. Which I buy more for occ. Razor.

Will address everything else later, but this particular take can be seen, not necessarily in bussing fashion, but in early voteparking fashion from the two I suspect to be partners: BM/Clidd and Votato. Because it is easier to put this in bold, I have chosen to quote farside's unofficial vote count and not one the mod made here.

unofficial vote count:

votato

(3): Malakittens, bob3141,

Battle Mage

Dunnstral (5): DoctorPepper, farside22, HK 50, notscience, stungun0404

Battle Mage

(3): Not_Mafia,

votato

, Green Crayons
notscience (1): geraintm
Malakittens (1): Dunnstral
Not voting (0):

Ask yourself this though about that vote count. Let's operate in the framework that votato and BM are scum together and Dunnstral is town. Plus note I just woke up, and did not review the context of that vote count in it's entirely although I do remember some of it.

You got a clear wagon in the form of Dunnstral for mafia to push. There's five people already on it, and the person being pushed isn't doing much on his own to get out of the lynch. Now then,

why would votato and BM enable themselves to be a counterwagon to Dunnstral by voting eachother?

Their votes pushes them into prime bandwagon spotlight without actually helping secure the easy mislynch supposedly in front of them.

That's the point with status quo I'm referring to for example. If Dunnstral is town, mafia status quo was already achieved there and they wouldnt open up that many more wagons, let alone on themselves. However, if Dunnstral is mafia, then scum

needs to redirect the wagons or bus him

. This is basic wagon dynamics.

(Note that I'm not saying Dunnstral has to be scum here based off that one VC, but rather if we applying what I meant to that particular VC then that would be the answer.)

BM had no choice but to join the Votato wagon in case he was lynched. Votato became a majority wagon at one point this day phase, so it makes complete sense that he joined under that light.

Votato just voteparked on BM from RVS until 25 posts later in his ISO.

Therefore, both of these make sense as scum votes on a fellow scummate.

You could be right there shogun as a while back vota said he was happy with either GC or BM. And even though BM wagon has quickly grown while no other wagon has had any momentum. He has stayed on green even though the only other person voting there is the other person prior said in post 555 he is happy to vote for.

And not long after saying he was happy with bm. He didn't include bm in his 3 scum picks. While even later giving himself an out for dun. At the point dun was at 4 and bm at 3. While bm was gaining more pressure. And the dun wagon was stalling.


While Bm a player who had just pushed vota to l-2 joins vota on the same wagon. Ok green might have pushed bm but why would a town bm first reaction be to scum read a player that just pushed him over his vota vote.


VOTE: Clidd

[bob3141]

I hate to say it but I’m still ok with a Dunn lynch. As much as I didn’t like BM’s posts.. the SG flop is going to be a turn off right now in terms of voting there until I sort that out. Gera is off the table for today, but note I’m not sold on him being scum
Or town. He’s really null for me; the same with NM.

My gut feeling is that dun is town. As i just can't see scum blatantly making blank votes on a player claiming to scum read him and the other going wagon. It feels too blatant for scum. Would have thought that if he is scum then he would have tried dressing it up, instead he simply posts a series of quotes and doesn't say why they lead him to scum reading not mafia.

Would scum real vote for someone when their last comment on that player was that he had in fact had no read on them. If he was scum i would have expected something along the lines of something between a few short sentences to several paragraphs.

I can totally see scum making blank votes. The fact he’s being cyrpitc and won’t explain his votes makes me think there’s no case to begin with and he’s hiding behind blank votes.

True at times scum do make lurky blank votes. But i can't see the scum motivation for him pushing you and then nm. Both slots that haven't drawn attention for more than one vote. Although NM does have scum reads from a few others. If he was scum it would imply he didn't care who got lynched and was happy with either of the going lynches. And that he was happy to vanity vote.

But see one of those lynches one is on him. Why would he as scum be happy for us to lynch him if he was scum. He even said he read the other wagon bm as town. I would have expected if he was scum that he would have claimed to scum read bm. Ok he might have not given his reason for the town read but that seems to fit a pattern that more matches bad town rather than lurking scum keeping his head down.

[bob3141]

Can you see my points here? Anything you disagree with or cannot understand?

--------------------------


I also agree with Mala that I also would not want you to skate through this game as scum behind what would be a lazy facade here for scum to implement. And I also used to be mislynched a lot D1, or at the very least was very much mislynch bait like Mala said she has been as town, but I have certainly become a more difficult D1 lynch as town over time.

you make valid points....but I am not going to vote for the sake of it. I feel awful when I get bamboozled into a vote/lynch because of pressure when I don't want to vote for soeone, I just want to avoid that as much as I can when I don't want to vote for someone.
when I do think someone is vote worthy, I will stick with them for a long long time - see my last game with trollie

So do you town read or scum read BM/clidd and dun. As if you scum read them then why do you not want to vote for them and if you town read them why do you not want to place serious vote elsewhere. AS if you were town I would have expected you to try and push a new lynch if you believed both of them to be town. And even if you were only sure one or even just felt it was town or that case benign pushed against that slot was bad. I would have thought if you were town that you would either push the other, in order to try and sort them. Or like the former try to push a new lynch.

As all i can see is that you don't like shoguns push on bm as you reply allot to him in regards to his bm push and state that you don't town read him.



So what do you town or scum read the slots clidd and dun?

And if you town read them why do you not want to push the lynch off your town reads. But instead in effect sitting on the fence while the clock ticks down to deadline. Leaving your vote on your rvs pick. A vote that if you are town wouldn't do anything to achieve getting who you think might be scum lynched. And increases the odds some you think is town gets lynched instead while you do nothing.

So if you are town , who do you want to vote for? Even if it isn't one of clid/bm or dun. As we are 2 days to deadline and you have not cast a serious vote at all. Not even a weak pressure vote.

[bob3141]

Hm, when was the last time geraintm placed a vote...

Town or scum im enjoying hk-50 commitment for posting style.

this was the 12th post afer mine VOTE: notscience

yep. not seen anyone so far in this game I am confident is scum. there aren't even many people I want lynched for other reasons like not being useful.

Ok so you want to tell us who you think is scum. You might claim to say you aren't confident but even that would not prevent you from saying, who you weakly feel is scum. Nor even who you do not want to lynch at all.

So far all this game you have been refusing to make choices. Insisting on sitting on the fence the entire day.

So if you are town then:

A who do you weakly scum read?
And
B who do you not want to lynch today at all?

Even the latter is still a choice you have not yet even after 8 days made.

[bob3141]

ill be around more after work to figure this out. I'm ok with going for a farside wagon.
i dont understand any of what farside just said ^

What are you confused about?

the words you used. there were some typos and i just couldnt follow your logic at all. also could people use spoilers if theyre gonna quote the entire thread?

My experience shows no one clicks on the spoiler to read quote walls.

Well the tldr version of my post in regards to hk is
1. I don't know why he scum reads dunn.
2. I liked his push on ns
3. I think scum would continue with a post restriction and not make long post as he did.
4. Although I disagreed with what he views between you and sg I can understand the thought process.

So do you on balance town read or scum read HK. As your tldr version doesn't really say what alignment you claim to think he is. Just first that you never really got why he was voting dun but what do you actually think of his read and the fact he has been on dun much of the day. Even if you don't entirely understand HK’s reasons behind his vote.

Then going onto how you liked his push on NS. Followed by his comments regarding Vota/shog. And his change in posting style.

But what do you think of his other actions. As keep seeing in his posts that he keeps pushing against the clidd wagon. As in 736 he pushes how he claims to think BM actions make no sense with a town dun. As he pushes that scum BM wouldn't cut off his chance to vote for his counter wagon. As it keeps giving me the feeling that he was trying to diffuse the BM wagon, while at the same time trying to push that dun wagon you have mentioned.

Even though in 731 He claims he could be convinced. But in 737 he is saying scum bm with town dun makes no sense. Even though he claims his scum equity goes up in 736 along with yours.

Now some of this could be due to him having trouble posting in his post restriction as I am having hard time making sense of his intentional robot posting.

[bob3141]

the simple solution is some combination of clidd/dunn/gerain/farside. although farside is chainsaw attacking clidd by attacking you for defending clidd, so maybe farside and clidd cant be scum together.

Where did i chainsaw attack? Im calling ns scum for surface level play and currently not making a case but trying to push a scum read on me when he was calling me town most of the game. He only switch to the scum read when i called him out.

yes but if you are scum and clidd is scum, then you wouldnt attack NS while NS is defending clidd. the timing of your attack on NS means you arent scum with clidd (probably)

So are you saying you now don't scum read the both of them now. As you only say bm/clidd are probably not partners with farside. You earlier agreed with green’s read list that marked them both as scum. And they have both been pushing against green.

And you have mostly been talking to or about farside of late. Given that clidd hasn't been in the thread during this time. But still I haven't really seen you push much against clidds slot since your vote for BM. But rather farside who was voting for the counter wagon before his switch to his switch to green. A player that before his rep out BM was also pushing. And teh player that has been hardest pushing BM/Clidd.

[bob3141]

I ask as at the moment i'm in a slight town reading mala. In my experience scum tends to avoid jumping on rvs wagons when they have already stacked up 3 votes. Either mala is scum and unafraid of the spotlight or as i feel at the moment a fellow townie that simply does not have anything to fear in the first place.

Only seen twice scum on 4thed place on rvs wagon. One was when scum was being rvs wagoned and the other was a scum player that spent much of the rest of the game jumping on wagons.


And mala comments on hk feel that it matches that pattern as well. Of a anotehr townie that inst afraid to get their neck stuck in and let thier views be known.

In my experience scum dont like being caught on large wagon in vs.

Take my last completed mini. Although i was on losing side if you looked back at day one. scum rvs voted me and as soon as i picked up my 4th vote. That Scum player was teh first to jump off. And infact tried to distance them selves from that wagon.

[Clarification:]

Expect you gave a strong case for why such a behavior is scummy and even provide evidence that scum tends to not commit to higher bandwagons in random voting stage. I'm aware it isn't identical, but my situation has aspects of that which to my photoreceptors indicates there should be some feeling one way or another based on my unvote.

I said theorically I'm scum from your point of view due in part by your own admission you were confused to why I am asking you this line of queries. I don't particularly care what the actual alignment is, but rather your thought process behind it in order to gague your master malakitten read.

[Demand:]

Look at that specific interaction of me unvoting. You given me the range I fall in, but only off the logic of me misconducting processing your point. Disregard that and analyze that temporal moment in space. What range would you rank that unvote to be in?

Your vote change from NS seems rather logical and well considered. It doesn't look to me like rash scum trying to get off. As i would have expected your vote change if you were scum to be more to the point. Abrupt even, while not really even making much acknowledging the change.

If there is scum on that rvs wagon of NS then my gut feeling is that if my read on you is right that you would have beaten them to the chase.

As far my slight town reads are you and mala. So if that rvs wagon wasn't all town then scum are likely in dunstral and pepper. Dunstals change was just sudden. Following the pushes of far and NS but with little extra input given. While peppers was little better but in reaction to Dunstals mala vote.

Now the question is. Was that rvs wagon all town. Which i have seen quite a few times and happens more than not.

Looking back at this interaction, I *really* don't like how HK baited bob into explaining to the town why bob saw HK's actions as town.

HK, I'd love to hear how your prompting supposedly came from a town POV.

303

This point as already been brought up and explained days ago.

And according to his logic presented about RVS wagons (in the quotes you left out) it would of prompted a scum read on me.

You never explained how a read on mala somehow would as you say prompt a scum read of your slot. A read based on the fact that scum rarely in my experience jump on rvs wagon when it already has 3 votes. And are in fact more likely to jump off then.

For some reason you kept trying to draw parallels between a wagon in another game I mentioned. Where 3 players had voted me outside of rvs and a scum player who only had rvs vote on me jumped off. That somehow mavs unvote directly parreled with yours. That an unvote of a legacy rvs vote that had been caught up in wagon on a townie. That was only apparent on day 3 and that I actually found townie at the time. Somehow directly compared to yours. A vote that was placed during rvs and a vote that was moved shortly after rvs. Why would you expect me to scum read you at the time if you are town. when i never scum read mav at the time.



Also why did you think at the time that the first thing that i would assume is that scum must be on the wagon. Feels like a loaded perspective. Instead you start with a leading question of why I don't scum read you. Looking back if you were coming from townie POV i would have expected you to simply ask is there anyone on that wagon you scum read. Instead you tried to make it all about you.

[bob3141]

ill be around more after work to figure this out. I'm ok with going for a farside wagon.
i dont understand any of what farside just said ^

What are you confused about?

the words you used. there were some typos and i just couldnt follow your logic at all. also could people use spoilers if theyre gonna quote the entire thread?

My experience shows no one clicks on the spoiler to read quote walls.

Well the tldr version of my post in regards to hk is
1. I don't know why he scum reads dunn.
2. I liked his push on ns
3. I think scum would continue with a post restriction and not make long post as he did.
4. Although I disagreed with what he views between you and sg I can understand the thought process.

So do you on balance town read or scum read HK. As your tldr version doesn't really say what alignment you claim to think he is. Just first that you never really got why he was voting dun but what do you actually think of his read and the fact he has been on dun much of the day. Even if you don't entirely understand HK’s reasons behind his vote.

Then going onto how you liked his push on NS. Followed by his comments regarding Vota/shog. And his change in posting style.

But what do you think of his other actions. As keep seeing in his posts that he keeps pushing against the clidd wagon. As in 736 he pushes how he claims to think BM actions make no sense with a town dun. As he pushes that scum BM wouldn't cut off his chance to vote for his counter wagon. As it keeps giving me the feeling that he was trying to diffuse the BM wagon, while at the same time trying to push that dun wagon you have mentioned.

Even though in 731 He claims he could be convinced. But in 737 he is saying scum bm with town dun makes no sense. Even though he claims his scum equity goes up in 736 along with yours.

Now some of this could be due to him having trouble posting in his post restriction as I am having hard time making sense of his intentional robot posting.

I had him as a light town read early on. It stands that way with even him posting without the restriction.

I know you tend to ask questions, but where is your stand currently? You know I feel after awhile it just looks like busy work.

At the moment my gut instinct is that BM/clidd/porkens is scum. And ever since clidd got wagoned Hk has kept trying to deflect attention away from the Bm/clidd wagon. He even keeps trying to dismiss anything bm might have done as not ai.

Even though he started pushing back at green after green had asked him legitimate questions about how he managed to come to an opposite conclusion as to shogun. When he in fact used shogun's own statement to vote.

All the while Hk kept pushing a wagon against Dunn. And only now suddenly town reads dunn after his wagon had dropped down to 2 votes.

[bob3141]

Neat.

I've already tried to get you to engage with my BM suspicions. You've ignored me. I also just expounded on them. You're ignoring that as well.

Just a minute. I will look over it.

in the corresponding scum slot

Also, I cannot express enough how bad it is to try to fill up scum team slots in D1. Associative suspicions are practically worthless in D1 without flips.

Things like this have worked for me before on D1. I can remember a few times I have done it before off the top of my head, but there probably are more somewhere.

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p10269994

I made a hot take that all scum were in a group of 4 players, which actually ended up being correct, because all three scum were in that group of players.

Now granted, I replaced out of that game early, but when I get a strong intuition about scum on D1, my past games have proven that I am best to follow it.

Also did it in another game on D1 here
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p10373659
And my later intuition that Kokichi was clearly the scum between the two after analyzing everyone on D1 was correct.

I can remember another game on another site that I had really really strong reads on all the scum on D1, so all I am saying is if I get really strong intuitions that something is the case on D1, I have yet to see/don't recall that it has been proven wrong. I have been consistent in how I have formed those reads too; it seems it has helped more than hurt town.

having seen nearly a whole day of stungun's posts, I can understand why he believes he is so good at findin scum on day 1. they have around so many ideas today that,like a stopped clock, they are bound to be right at some point.
just, I cannot work out which 95% of their posts I am meant to ignore to find the gold

Germa we are at the eleventh hour of the day. With no lynch approaching and yet you are still on your vanity vote. You keep saying shogun is wrong but who do you think is the best lynch today. Because as it stands we are a poaching the deadline and porkens is the lead lynch. Followed by dun and green.

Do you see a no lynch as better than lynching Porkens?

As if you are town that what your lack of anything but vanity vote is contributing too.


As most of your posts have been about how you don't like shoguns pushes but you have not come up with any of your own. So who do you want to lynch today? That is a realistic prospect.

[bob3141]

I ask as at the moment i'm in a slight town reading mala. In my experience scum tends to avoid jumping on rvs wagons when they have already stacked up 3 votes. Either mala is scum and unafraid of the spotlight or as i feel at the moment a fellow townie that simply does not have anything to fear in the first place.

Only seen twice scum on 4thed place on rvs wagon. One was when scum was being rvs wagoned and the other was a scum player that spent much of the rest of the game jumping on wagons.


And mala comments on hk feel that it matches that pattern as well. Of a anotehr townie that inst afraid to get their neck stuck in and let thier views be known.

In my experience scum dont like being caught on large wagon in vs.

Take my last completed mini. Although i was on losing side if you looked back at day one. scum rvs voted me and as soon as i picked up my 4th vote. That Scum player was teh first to jump off. And infact tried to distance them selves from that wagon.

[Clarification:]

Expect you gave a strong case for why such a behavior is scummy and even provide evidence that scum tends to not commit to higher bandwagons in random voting stage. I'm aware it isn't identical, but my situation has aspects of that which to my photoreceptors indicates there should be some feeling one way or another based on my unvote.

I said theorically I'm scum from your point of view due in part by your own admission you were confused to why I am asking you this line of queries. I don't particularly care what the actual alignment is, but rather your thought process behind it in order to gague your master malakitten read.

[Demand:]

Look at that specific interaction of me unvoting. You given me the range I fall in, but only off the logic of me misconducting processing your point. Disregard that and analyze that temporal moment in space. What range would you rank that unvote to be in?

Your vote change from NS seems rather logical and well considered. It doesn't look to me like rash scum trying to get off. As i would have expected your vote change if you were scum to be more to the point. Abrupt even, while not really even making much acknowledging the change.

If there is scum on that rvs wagon of NS then my gut feeling is that if my read on you is right that you would have beaten them to the chase.

As far my slight town reads are you and mala. So if that rvs wagon wasn't all town then scum are likely in dunstral and pepper. Dunstals change was just sudden. Following the pushes of far and NS but with little extra input given. While peppers was little better but in reaction to Dunstals mala vote.

Now the question is. Was that rvs wagon all town. Which i have seen quite a few times and happens more than not.

Looking back at this interaction, I *really* don't like how HK baited bob into explaining to the town why bob saw HK's actions as town.

HK, I'd love to hear how your prompting supposedly came from a town POV.

303

This point as already been brought up and explained days ago.

And according to his logic presented about RVS wagons (in the quotes you left out) it would of prompted a scum read on me.

You never explained how a read on mala somehow would as you say prompt a scum read of your slot. A read based on the fact that scum rarely in my experience jump on rvs wagon when it already has 3 votes. And are in fact more likely to jump off then.

For some reason you kept trying to draw parallels between a wagon in another game I mentioned. Where 3 players had voted me outside of rvs and a scum player who only had rvs vote on me jumped off. That somehow mavs unvote directly parreled with yours. That an unvote of a legacy rvs vote that had been caught up in wagon on a townie. That was only apparent on day 3 and that I actually found townie at the time. Somehow directly compared to yours. A vote that was placed during rvs and a vote that was moved shortly after rvs. Why would you expect me to scum read you at the time if you are town. when i never scum read mav at the time.



Also why did you think at the time that the first thing that i would assume is that scum must be on the wagon. Feels like a loaded perspective. Instead you start with a leading question of why I don't scum read you. Looking back if you were coming from townie POV i would have expected you to simply ask is there anyone on that wagon you scum read. Instead you tried to make it all about you.

Not really because I did explain it.

As stated, i found the logic to be somewhat applicable to me because of how I understood your underlying logic: scum is less likely to want to be put into the spotlight via their RVS vote and tends to avoid being in that position.

I also admitted in 303 that I fucked up and made the reaction test that went alongside the question leading.

Now can you answer the question about you ATE leading farside?

What ate?

[bob3141]

Germa I can't believe you would rather a no lynch over porkens.

If you were town I would have thought if you didnt want to lynch porkens because you genuinely town read him you would have gone for some who you thought was scum. To stop the lynch of a player you thought was town. And not simply vanity voted.

If you are town. Instead you want to simply kick the can down the road. Letting scum have a free kill with us losing a mislynch. Our chance at actual killing scum.

[bob3141]

The thing is you claim to be town not wanting a no lynch but I have never seen you say that before. In fact i dont think ive ever seen town you push for no lynch, instead you ahve always been ona wagon by now.

[bob3141]

I would be up for germa. If he is town i fear what will happen last game will happen again.

In last day he held off voting till last day and we ended up lynchign our rolestopper. Day 4 his vote was dead log. So we were in effect already in lylo and it allowed scum to play off a tvtvt situation. And make us think out of two it was him that was the scum.

[bob3141]

VOTE: Geraintm

And i have never seen town germa not go for a lynch. Even when his vote was dead log

[bob3141]

In teh first game he kept saying. He was happy with any lynch. and that was big reason he got run up that game. So for him to say he wants no lynch is very out of character

[bob3141]

Germa I can't believe you would rather a no lynch over porkens.

If you were town I would have thought if you didnt want to lynch porkens because you genuinely town read him you would have gone for some who you thought was scum. To stop the lynch of a player you thought was town. And not simply vanity voted.

If you are town. Instead you want to simply kick the can down the road. Letting scum have a free kill with us losing a mislynch. Our chance at actual killing scum.

I dont scum read porkens. I am fairly sure I have never said I think he is. So why would I want him dead? You all do you though, and you can use the info I didnt want him lynched as you wish.

And you say our chance to lynch scum....I just dont see it. Not fay 1. Scum just push over confident townies to mislhnches

I never said that you scum read him. I said that if you were town and genuinely town read him. That you would try and push someone else who you thought could be scum but instead you instead now you claim you want a no lynch. So rather than you voting someone else and from POV stopping a mis lynch. As if you were town and didn't scum read porkens you would see porkens as mislynch.

So in that situation a townie would be thinking who out of these others do i want to vote for. Who is a better plausible lynch. Even if they were thinking ok i don't like the choices but thats who i got to choose from. A townie would then pick who they thought had the highest scum equity.

[bob3141]

In teh first game he kept saying. He was happy with any lynch. and that was big reason he got run up that game. So for him to say he wants no lynch is very out of character

What is this first game that you're referencing?

Did he say that in D1?

Yep he said he didn't like day ones so would be happy with any wagon. Big reason he got wagoned mid day one in that game. In that game the only reason he didn't join the wagon was because it was on me. After I hard defended him on a small feeling on his posting. And got distracted by town flav but before then he was on my counter wgaon if i remember correctly

Scum kept him alive till lylo and mislycnhed him.


in my last game with him he was happy to flash lynch espresso without a claim. And he was happy to voet here and there for actualy reasons. So i dont see germa as being geuine as i know

[bob3141]

In teh first game he kept saying. He was happy with any lynch. and that was big reason he got run up that game. So for him to say he wants no lynch is very out of character

What is this first game that you're referencing?

Did he say that in D1?

Also.

What.

"Gerain did X in another game as town. Doing X got him lynched."

"Gerain is not doing not-X. That means he's scum."

Wouldn't Gerain, regardless of alignment, not keep doing X that got him lynched as town?

i didnt get him lynched though. last game scum took him to lylo and that first game lylo too. It got him heat true but the wagon didnt last long. And in the last scum just ignored him.

[bob3141]

Didnt help that another townie in that first game gained a gridge against him. So i doubt he would of been lynched in lylo without that drama and scum would of simply mislynched ame

So i can full see scum germa tryign to hide behind it. It worked for him as town in his last games.


But then he did vote for players. Ok his oush on flav failed to get traction but he did try. I was getting lynched when he thought i was town and he did try. he might have failed and been pushign another townie


But never any of this noylynch over porks.

[bob3141]

Take my last game. He was town reading me and i was getting wagoned.

But he did push somewhere. He pushed trollie.

He kept givign actual reads before he voted allomancer

then compromised on espresso flash lynch.


So i dont buy this lets no lynch comes from town germa.

Town germa hates day ones but he wants a wagon. He is slow but does vote out of rvs. He can be stubbon but will bend or atleast try to get somethign he wants

[bob3141]

Still can't believe germa was town with how he wouldn't take a stand on porkens. The game before where we were both town as well must have done some damage to him.


But looking at his wagon the start of it is looking rather towny. As i don't see as we now know for sure, a scum porkens voting with his scum buddy vota only hour and half after vota had in fact voted for germa himself. Resulting in the leading wagon switching from being on porkens to germa. The votes feel too close to be s/s and vota vote changing matches his progression for the day. With him sheeping at times the players he town reads.

Ok there might have only been 10 hours before the end of the day but my gut is leaving me feeling that scum porkens would have waited longer before voting, if vota was his buddy.


Followed by dunn who I feel is fellow townie. He might not be saying too much at once but his thought process throughout day one did feel townie. Concise posts yes but The content feels townie.

[bob3141]

Not sure how to read N-M. As ive only played two games with him. One game where he was town and another scum. And pretty much both of them looked the same. With the first game having him hard bus his buddies resulting in lynches over the first two days. And the other very similar where he was town and hammered all the going wagons.

[bob3141]

Not liking in addition to my prior suspicions of HK. That HK chose to vote germa at that stage or more precisely delayed voting for germa until the very last hours. Even though he was on at 6pm and 9pm. He only chooses between vota, germa and porkens until 10pm gmt.

With him saying at 9pmish that he saw no town pings from germa and was pushing back against SG reasoning that there was scum in porkens/SG

If he was town i would have thought he would have voted earlier rather than delaying placing his vote one way or the other. Instead he just talks mostly about porkens not being scum to SG. Feels like scum trying to stop SG from switching back to Porkens. But not voting until it's too late for the lynch to change. Due to not enough of us townies left online at the critical time.

[bob3141]

VOTE: bob

I would like to start here

- I disagree with whoever said bob gets towncred for hardpushing Battle Mage. He was only like the 5th person on that wagon, and I can see bob's vote as a bus that came at a time when Battle Mage as a slot might have been going down.

- bob didn't really give a read on BM until someone asked him in 724.

- bob also never interacted directly with the Battle Mage/Porkens slot in spite of his scumread there.

You do realise that the post you quoted was my stance on SG post. In which he was replying to me about my questions that I had put to him in order to sort him.

As i was unsure why he would push green in relation to the dun wagon. So that i could sort your slot as i was unsure about why SG would flip flop onto green who i saw as town from bm.


And his response was a big part of why i town read him as his reply felt that his movement between green and bm was more sew sawing of a townie unsure rather than scum flip flopping between two players trying to see who they could get lynched.



Was more focused on actually building porkens wagon with my limited time during my working week. As Well as trying to sort those players who wouldn't vote for him.


I would say I learnt my lesson from when your slot was scum under adora. But I think I snapped yet again. where in that game i was pushing your slot hard and because midway wouldn't vote for you. I ended up recklessly voting him lylo without stopping to think. Even though I was sure your slot was scum with both options.

Was the first time that I had ever incorrectly lynched in lylo. Lost before but alas i was dead and no one but the dead could hear me.

[bob3141]

I'm starting with stungun for obvious reasons in my pov. It's a bit tricky to analyze their ISO due to how they, for lack of a better word, sporadically hopped from different wagons they were scum reading. Normally I would equate that to scum behavior, however, I'm actually having a hard time debating rather or not its unfocused eager townie mindset due in part of how much substance is there for the wagon switches. Therefore, I'm leaving that aspect of stunguns play open to others to read into at their pleasure.

What I did want to focus on is their progression leading up to the BM vs GC read.

Spoiler: stungun early posts on GC vs bm

Also, it's not that I am looking for associatives in the sense of who is working together, but more I am looking to make sense of the game from the standpoint of "the game only makes sense if one of these players is scum", and the alternative makes absolutely no sense.

There are ways to read into that on D1, such as vote pushes for example.

Now I will look into your bm suspicion, GC.

OK, so I am going to try my best to summarize GC's case on BM from what I gather, because I have been having a little bit of trouble interpreting it fully on the surface:
first, GC suspects one of the votes on the original Votato wagon to be scum between me, ns, Bob, mala, and BM, because the votes were lazy on that wagon.
GC finds BM scummy because his vote on Votato looks made up, because BM said he liked my meta analysis on Votato which said what he has done so far is NAI, but because BM thought Votato was scummy for what I analyzed. So GC finds BM to voting Votato there not because he thinks Votato is truly scummy, but instead extending my NAI read on Votato to mean he is scummy? In some ways, I can understand this logic here, but in other ways this seems a little bit of a stretch, so I'm conflicted looking at this reasoning? BM could have just voted Votato on the basis of not seeing anything scummier to that point, so I feel like the better argument would be that he's not properly scumhunting, and thus he is scum assuming your vantage point is town. He simply is feeding off of my read, and interpreting ~ to be scummy based off of that, using my analysis to both shield him and pocket me.

So, yes I will concede overall to GC that is a little bit of a poor push, which is what aided me in concluding that one of you has to be scum because conceivably that push could be an instance of scum not truly scumhunting, but faking it. OTOH, you know I have already felt strong about you, GC, and so from my perspective seeing BM's push together with my read on you, I can't possibly see a gamestate where neither of you are scum.

OK, you also have a fair point in the fact that BM is conflicting himself in 404 by keeping his vote on Votato while saying "last time I saw something like this, it flipped town, but what can you do about it?" That is honestly weird, but in your case I noted the same thing with you voting BM while pushing Dunnstral, so I have seen this in effect from both of you, and thus by this logic too it does not make sense that both of you are town.

I am just honestly stuck in a situation right now where I am not yet convicted enough in BM's scumminess yet to move my vote off you, especially since something you have done ended up being a reason you are pushing BM.

525] You also made a case against BM here, but I am having trouble understanding this push, so it will take a little extra parsing, but I will attempt to understand what is scummy about it from your vantage point as soon as I can.

Yeah, that's strange, I'm ngl... I will need explanation for that.

Here's a town game of GC's that looks remarkably different from this game of his (compare his ISO here).

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... %5B%5D=150
Lots of townreads, and lots of observing good things about players.

Here in this game, very minimal townreads, and a lot of observing bad things about players, which seems shady compared to his ISO from that game.

Just wasted my time looking at a couple Not_Mafia games, Open 779 (scum) and Newbie 1985 (town). Pretty redundant in both, similar posting style and attitude, slightly more trigger happy with the vote as scum but nothing much to get excited about. So could go either way here, and expect more of the same.

In other news, I've decided HK 50 is actually town, and figured out the most likely reason why Green Crayons voted Dunnstral. So that's something!

This is perhaps the one post BM has made that makes me reluctant to think he's scum. I got a very weak townlean out of it. I don't necessarily have that post yet with GC, but feel very confident in one of them being scum so that is definitely where I would like to lynch today.

I almost feel like scum doesn't even bother with trying to sort nm through meta (the nullest player there is), but granted he does not come up with a concrete conclusion for it, so it's not like he takes a hard stance or anything. So in the end, I am not sure what I should take from this, although I know that early on it was a reason for a slight townlean on BM.

This, of course assumes BM has experience with nm, though.

OTOH, with BM, I don't spot any sense of urgency in his scumhunting pursuit, and I don't like having that feel.

I'm not against voting him out, and would prefer him over Dunnstral because there is more substance there, as there really isn't much substance to a Dunn lynch except for a few posts made at the beginning of the game that really could just be town making a few early-game declarations based off what they felt which have been taken out of context. That said, I am open to potentially lynching him tomorrow, provided today's flip is scum. I really don't feel confident yet on Dunn flipping scum, especially since there has seemed to be little pushback to his wagon since the votato wagon dissolved. That is, taking away my own push/case on GC.

I find it weird that geraintm and dunn are suddenly coming out of the woodwork sticking up for BM, and dunn has already stuck up against geraintm being lynched, and geraintm weakly against dunn? Anyone else find this strange?

VOTE: BM

I am starting to get a sense that he is the true scum between him/GC; the lack of proactivity/genuine scumhunting from him is pretty damning.

Mage(BM)/votato/Dunn

Close nm, but I think the scumteam is BM-Votato-HK. There is a clear link there, and I'm going to explain what I see there soon.

* His original explanation; noting that BM had another one in 573, but it did take him a long time to actually voice it.

On another note, I have luckily found enough time the last handful of days to build individual cases with a spoiler each of evidence on why each of BM/Clidd-Votato and HK are linked. I silently gathered evidence after getting a suspicion about them being linked Thursday before I finally convinced myself well enough to question them yesterday. I will submit the cases I have gathered here in a minute.

Let's start with a Votato!Scumteam Case. Through his posts is where it all starts making sense! Even though he was a null read for me, he’s the link that makes so much sense between my two biggest scumleans of HK and BM/Clidd.

The Votato post is easily the longest of the three, b/c there’s the most evidence, so be prepared this one's a bit longer than the others.

There’s also reason to believe Dunnstral is town from this evidence.

Spoiler: Scumteam Case from Votato's posts

Look at this, the first RVS vote from Votato:

VOTE: hk 50 i know that you're really an assassin droid

Instance attempt at a distancing vote? Note the wording: I "know" that you are really an "assassin droid".

How can you "know" that he is an "assassin droid" unless you are, in fact, scum with him?

Dunnstral even called this out in 20, of all players, which completely makes sense from a town!Dunnstral perspective.

Town or scum im enjoying hk-50 commitment for posting style.

He's scum with votato, but I'll let him live for being amusing

Dunnstral clarified later to farside that he vaguely saw that as a partner post. I can see it that way too.

Then there is also a reason to link BM with Votato, also based off Votato's posting: Votato did vote Battle Mage early on too. He even voteparked there early on for 25 posts in his ISO (so if BM was lynched that could serve as distancing). However, when it counted most it seems that he has, in fact, been resistant to that wagon. This is in spite of expressing "a willingness to lynch there" in 555

VOTE: crayons there are no current good wagons, my vote is on BM as a placeholder ffs.

Votato votes GC, sheeping me because of my good case, as mentioned in Votato's 456. However, scum has incentive to use me as a shield to themselves so that they are the ones that are not at fault after a mislynch. Assuming GC!town, Votato can deny responsibility because I was the one who made the push, and him the one that sheeped it.

in one post Votato says, while his vote sheeps me on GC:

yeah at this point im fine with a GC or BM lynch.

But then when I flip to BM, Votato proves this wrong because he starts defending BM, and not flipping to vote him with me.

VOTE: BM

I am starting to get a sense that he is the true scum between him/GC; the lack of proactivity/genuine scumhunting from him is pretty damning.

The very next post, Votato says:

Gc why do you want to flip bm if you think he'll flip town?

This distracts away from my BM vote, all the while allowing himself to defend the GC vote even more, and bringing attention to the player I flipped from, GC, calling him out on an inconsistency.

In essence, Votato is defending BM subtly, and has expressed no willingness in his ISO since then to move over to him, even though he declared at an earlier point "I am fine lynching either of BM or GC." His actions suggest otherwise. It suggests that perhaps Votato is afraid of moving over to BM, because that would make a majority wagon, as it would cause a tie in votes between BM and Dunnstral. This would cause BM, in turn, to be considered more seriously by others. Seems like a natural reaction that could happen when one is presented with the chance to put a partner of their's in danger.

Next, a very short case on association from HK50's posts. HK has really not talked at all about either of Votato or BM in a scummy sense, but also doesn't really appear to be truly scumhunting in general. So that is something to keep an eye on.

Further, HK is on the counterwagon of Dunnstral, which could be seen as protecting a potential partner in Clidd/BM.

HK is only voting Dunnstral, per his 307 because "he agrees with what has been said about him." This is a lazy sheep vote. Does that seem like genuine scumhunting to you? Especially since he's voteparked there?

Spoiler: Scumteam Case from HK's posts

HK interestingly utilized my interactions with Votato against me to support cases that are a bit of a stretch about me being scum, in his 607.

Further, HK also conveniently flipped on his early town indication on me he expressed in 304, saying that he "felt better about me" because he thinks I used "bad townie logic." But then, suddenly in 607, in my interactions with Votato, he frames it so that he can make me look scummier AND concludes nothing negative on Votato, perhaps making his partner look better?

Finally, from the BM/Clidd angle, which is long like the Votato one, but all but seals the deal on this scumteam for me.

Spoiler: Scumteam Case from BM's posts

First note: when the Votato wagon was a thing. Guess who was on the wagon? That's right! Battle Mage joined it 4th (after Mala/me/Bob) and did so with very weak reasoning in his 343, while HK remained on Dunnstral (the majority wagon with limited pushback). This holds true to the theory of scum having to distance on a possible majority wagon on a partner, but also having to join a wagon on a partner.

I am currently a few pages into reading, but would like to make a request. @HK50, I love your posting style -- so nothing against it -- but could you possibly use less sophisticated words to get your points across? I can understand what you are saying if I really spend time looking into your every post, but it is very hard to read some of your posts on the surface.

Another reason I ask this is because using a ton of more complicated words makes it more difficult than normal to read your intentions. This posting style could be extremely effective for scum to hide behind, because it is an easy way for them to blanket their intentions, because a lot more effort is needed than typical to truly ***ess their motives.

And if you are town, then it should make sense why this could become an issue. Because if people are having to spend too much time looking at a townplayer's posts to unpack their motives, it takes away from their focus of scumhunting, which absolutely could lead us down the wrong path in the long run.

I completely agree with this, his posts are pretty unreadable for me too because of the format. But I also think it's a very conspicuous posting style and a lot of effort for scum to keep up with minimal value, so slight townlean.

Like, if scum, why bother?

Battle Mage also sticks up for HK here. And is interestingly the first and only if I remember correctly to stick up for him there.

Votato votes are lazy. I bet one of y'all are scum.

Challenge accepted!

VOTE: Votato

I like the meta analysis by stungun, clearly nobody is getting behind Green Crayons, and I think I'm townleaning Dunnstral. And seriously, voting BM on Day 1? This dude has run out of ideas...

Here is the weak reason BM joined the Votato wagon: it was after interpreting my NAI meta analysis to be

AI

. That is a stretch. Is it because they are scum partners?

@Votato:

are you a pathetic *** scum?

A little harsh, but I did employ some artistic licence

On serious note,

Green Crayons queuing up Votato for some dodgy self-meta; 2 scum down?

BM sets up a GC link to Votato, interestingly, perhaps to mislynch later if Votato flips?

Does anyone have experience with scum Dunnstral? I have only played with town Dunnstral as scum to my recollection (2 times).

I know that as town he is not the hardest player to sort, but he still is a little bit tricky. He is easier to sort than nm for sure.

Also, he might get easier by the day, but he also might not. So I am not totally against a lynch there, but would just prefer to keep him in for two reasons. One is he is one of the few players I have experience with, so I might be able to read him better as the game progresses. And two, I do not really find what he has done so far to be super scummy, and if anything the push against him gives me a slight intuition he might be town. I could be wrong there, and I would like to see him post more, but I am not super suspicious.

I do think it is very likely, however, that if one Votato/Dunn is scum, the other is not, and should be ***umed to be town. I just don't see them as connected, as votato has made very little mention of Dunn in his posts and Dunn throwing votato out of the blue as a scum partner to someone... wouldn't seem like the smartest plan if they were scum partners? I mean, that's a little bold, drawing that much attention to you

and

your partner?

I've seen scum-Dunnstral once. He tried harder than this and seemed more engaged in a game where he replaced in maybe 60 pages deep - definitely feels town here. Agree with top half of your post, last para doesn't sound right to me. In my recent experience, scum often make little mention of their buddies to avoid ***ociations being drawn.

But lynching Vot-scum first is the play, and then decide whether to bite for his stungun 'slip'. Gut says probably not

.

He still is sheeping me on Votato because of my "meta analysis", but he again is the only one to throw out the possibility of Votato and me in fact being scum together, actually taking Votato's "slip" post somewhat seriously, which is so called a "slip" because of these posts from Votato:

i have a little but i cant talk about it. by day 2 or 3 ill probably give some more details. as for the ***ociation you're drawing between me and dunn, stun, you're right that we aren't scumbuddies, but i dont think your reasons why are all that strong.

plus the only reason you know that is cuz you and i are scumbuddies

.

*** wrong thread.

Finally, the icing on the cake:

i have a little but i cant talk about it. by day 2 or 3 ill probably give some more details. as for the association you're drawing between me and dunn, stun, you're right that we aren't scumbuddies, but i dont think your reasons why are all that strong. plus the only reason you know that is cuz you and i are scumbuddies.

*** wrong thread.

Last time I saw something like this it flipped town, but what can ya do!?

He uses this scumslip for reason to townread Votato

I am convinced this is the scum team. I think we should lynch them consecutively.

Also note all three of Votato, BM and GC have weakly sheep-voted people, using players as shields.

Votato sheeping me immediately onto GC, BM very weakly sheeping me onto Votato, and HK weakly sheeping Farside and others onto Dunnstral without bringing any new evidence to the table regarding Dunnstral!scum.

Thus, it seems voting Clidd is the right move here.

[too lazy to fix the 50 spoiler tag issues]

I find the timing and progression to the BM vote during the exchange to be odd. Preceding their vote on BM was posts 557 and 580 which threw suspicions off BM and onto dunn and germ. Yet they not only vote BM afterwards, but also when BM was only at 2 votes and was not a fully established counter wagon yet. This leads me to two conclusions:

-Stungun is town and flopped on their dunn/BM read based off their voting reason (sense of feeling true scum between GC and BM was BM and that BM lacked a lot of scum hunting)

Or

-stungun was scum and preemptively begun shading other players (me, votato, dunn, and germ) in case BM flipped.

A strong case could be made for the second situation as taking a step back and looking at stunguns theory that scum was inactive as a whole pairs conveniently nicely with the pool. However, I think it's not only invailded partially due to the timing of the vote and bus, but also how stungun handled clidd not posting after replacing in. If that was for credit, why go after the most bullshit of reasons to vote BM rather than make an independent case supporting the wagon?

Stunguns switch to voting BM is also lacking a lot of supporting logic which I find problematic if it was indeed a preemptive bus. Typically scum wants to paint a stronger narrative for themselves and struggle over keeping their story in check. Given Stungund posting habits demonstrating what would be a strong ability to mimic townlike scum hunting, it further casts doubt over it being a bus.

Therefore I think the early execution of their vote switch and subsequent ill focus on the slot likely points to town!stungun. I will be reading the later half of the progression since A) I remember them returning to GC being the likely scum again and B) to see in what context they dropped the BM/pork in favor for germ slash other lynches.

First though is my delicious lunch.

I feel like you're just trying to justify why you were pushing back against SG pushes on bm/clidd/porkens during day one. Porken flips and Sg repps out and suddenly you claim a tentative town read on the player. You don't claim a town read you just say you town read the first half. Even though nothing has changed.

I can't see a fellow townie not being able to come up on full read a full 3 days after porkens flip and 5 after germa flip. Especially when that is in fact the only player you have talked about so far this day phase. Two days into that very phase.


So why is the first thing you try to do is try to justify your pushes on SG after porkens was flipped at the start of the day. Just like how you pushed dun both my not saying if he is scum x and if i is town y. You try to present analysis based on both outcomes. Which feels to me like you know which way he will flip and are preparing for that very town flip. As why would another townie who claimed to scum read dun. Present a case for if he was town.


You even tried to shade my attempt at sorting farside. When I asked about his posts where it was unclear if he was claiming a scum read or town read on you. Where I asked him about different elements of your posts. In which his reply would be telling and help me sort his slot. Which left me feeling a slight town on him as he just came out with a simple answer and did not overly elaborate on his town read on you. Even though i asked him a wide range of points on it to see if he would concisely explain his read or try and over explain.

[bob3141]

@farside

It should have been clear I was outright calling you out for shading me. Trying to dismiss my entire post as ate. Something i've seen do scum do to me recently to get me worked up. In the end it won the game as I stopped being objective and snapped on midway for his bad play even though I was 100% sure cat/adora slot was scum and uncertain midway at the time..


It should be clear that I scum read you. As i didn't like how in you 731 You claimed you could be convinced to vote for pork. Yet continued to push for duns lynch.

Dun who kept coming up as porks slot counter wagon.

All the while you keep pushing back at one the two slots really pushing a case on that slot.



farside came out with a posts where he skirted around the issue of his read on you. That left me a bit unsure on him. In it he made 4 points but did not come out with a read. So I asked him about his read on you. To get a definitive answer.

He made 4 points so I questioned him on those points both wishing to see his read and how he would respond to the points. One of which was how you appeared to me like we're trying to set up mislynches to push after you got dun mis lynched saving porkens.

[bob3141]

Hk i dont even get why your makign post chain debating SG slot

Does SG and porkens interactions look at all to you as s/s.

As to me rereading day one it looks quite clear that porkens was tryign to appease SG.


Dun comes out with a vote on dun with it have scum poe. And he gets heat from SG straight away resulting in SG revoting porkens.

All of sudden we hear no more mention of anyone that SG was town reading. And appears to start bending his read along the lines of SG reads. Looks very much like porkens was trying to reason with his excutioner. With only pushign players apart from him that SG scum read.
First he tries to further push his dun vote but keeps backign down. See how he mostly just talks to shogun. I feel its no suprise he starts pushing those SG then wants. Even joining him after SG had started a lynch of germa.


So i don't see how they could be partners. So i dont see how your making big posts about there interactions.

[bob3141]

Yeah I can't really tell if HK is vomit posting to get his thoughts out on a page for him to review, or for him to look like he's contributing.

Honestly, HK, it hasn't been helpful.

Give me a HEADLINE (who you suspect, who is town).

Then give me BULLET POINTS (of why--primarily for who you suspect, but you can do it for town too).

Make the bullet points ONE OR TWO SENTENCES. Those sentences better be 20 WORDS OR LESS.

bob too

I can be a bit convoluted at times. i broke it down into some sentances.

But the shortened version is.

That i scum read HK as he kept trying to deflect attention away from porkesn slot.

Hk kept trying to push duns slot over porkens. Even claiming dun would give info, wording that looking back was mirrored by porkens.

And that was after I had broken the tie between dun and porkens. Pushing porkens to the lead wagon.

He dismissed anything bm had said as nai


And even started to attack SG who was town read of mine. And along with you was one of the two main players pushing for porkens lynch at the time.

While i was trying to pressure the likes of germa to vote for porkens he was pushing dun. But with many open interpretations of what duns flip would mean. Felt it was disingenuous that he was that objective and open to dun town flip. While pushing him


The first thing he does during the start of day 2 is talk about his read on SG.


A player he was attacking and then voted along with. Feels to me like he is trying to justify first pushing against porkens lynch in favour of dunn. By justifying his push on sg during day one. Feels very row backy

[bob3141]

@farside

It should have been clear I was outright calling you out for shading me. Trying to dismiss my entire post as ate. Something i've seen do scum do to me recently to get me worked up. In the end it won the game as I stopped being objective and snapped on midway for his bad play even though I was 100% sure cat/adora slot was scum and uncertain midway at the time..

To be clear, you were talking about HK50 here right?

yep was meant to be @HK

[bob3141]

So, in a similar vein, here's how HK 50 interacted with the BM slot: 166 has him making a joke about battle mage being useless in response to battle mage making a vote on him because of his wagon size and post restricvtion. Maybe an unlikely S/S interaction? Asking him for an explanation in 168 less so. 207 has him questioning why malakittens finds battle mage scummy. 209 asks battle mage about his read on green crayons. 307 explains his meta as "you have to look at overall motivation in his posts in accordance to the gamestate" which isn't very useful (though I somewhat liked the admission to sheeping in that same post). Says he hates reading his posts in 609. defends clidd's absence in 709. 713 again comments on the slot with "Clidd really has nothing AI. BM I dont really have a read on." 728/729 is dismissing the possibility of a BM/votato team. In 731 says "I can be convinced of scum BM despite disagreeing with the votato pairing" which is probably his worst line. 738 again calls stungun's push on clidd "WIFOM bullshit". 1022 says of BM: "Even with my suspicions he was trying to play against/off meta, the case didnt sway me hard. It warrants hearing his replacement speak at least". From there, there's not a whole lot of interaction with porkens on any level. refuses to vote him in 1545/1547. expresses alarm that the counterwagons of the day all jumped to voting gera in 1549 but then walks it back in 1558. Again very little comment on anything porkens says.

Independently, I think HK 50 reads townish overall but from this perspective it doesn't really look good. There's a few townish looking posts but his resistance to reading the slot in the later day is bad. I'll look into Dunnstral tomorrow as well, fully aware he doesn't look great interaction-wise either.

HK interactions with porkens wagon is the biggest reason I scum read him. At the start of the game I had a slight town read on him. But while players were pushing the bm/clidd/porkens slot he actively pushed back against one of the lead players in that push, SG. All the while pushing the alternative wagon to bm/clidd/porkens that kept cropping up during that day. Dun.


And the line you saw in post 731 was the point I started to scum read him over it. Yet at no point did even join the porkens wagon. He said he could of be convinced to vote porkens. So then clearly he must not have been town reading him. At a point where the deadline was getting close. When for bit porkens got to l-1. All he did was choose only hours before the deadline to vote gerain.

Apart from an hour before his gerain vote. His only interaction with gerain had been in post 1032. Where all he did is ask how if gerain though SG read confidence was AI. And no real follow up when gerain did not respond to his post.

[bob3141]

Thought it would be clear that i intend to vote for HK.

[bob3141]

To actualy be on to post.


VOTE: Hk

[bob3141]

I dont like the dun wagon as the way hk kept pushing it over porkens leaves me feeling that these two slots cant be s/s.

And since my gut keeps telling me that hk is scum, i cant see dun beign his partner.

[bob3141]

Thought it would be clear that i intend to vote for HK.

Why did it take you so long and why did GC have to prompt you?

Do i look like some one that is on 24/7

serously i come on to cast my vote for hk. And i see green as had bit of whine that i dont agree with him on his dun push. My reads ar not his and i will not be pushed into voting for someone i dont think is scum. Over some i do think is scum.



And not only that see that dun wagon has got upto l-1. Even though through out day one it kept cropping up as the alternative to porkens.

[bob3141]

Do i look like some one that is on 24/7

serously i come on to cast my vote for hk. And i see green as had bit of whine that i dont agree with him on his dun push. My reads ar not his and i will not be pushed into voting for someone i dont think is scum. Over some i do think is scum.

when did you intend to vote HK

point me to the post # where i should see your intent

I thought it would be clear from my post at midnight that I intended to vote hk when i was next on. Pretty much a case of it being late. I'll do it tomorrow lunch time. I've found sleeping on it is tried and test.


Where I spoke to maxwell about how that line in 731 was the point that I started to scum read him. And that he never joined the porken wagon at any point even though he claimed prior he could be convinced. Even though he never said anything to the contrary after. So at best HK was a null read for him. As if he could be convinced to vote porkens he mustn't have had town read on him.

And where i mention how hk was claiming he was happy to vote porkens is the very same post he tried to dismiss as ate.

[bob3141]

Why didn't you extend even if you genuinely thought dun was the right person. With you claiming intent instead of lolhammering. Giving dun at least a chance to claim

[bob3141]

Pretty clear that nm is scum and has copped that im some kind of cop.

[bob3141]

if you were town why would you out yourself. And risk as you have done outing another pr

[bob3141]

As i see it you must know my role or otherwise guessed it. As a gunsmith gets a false guilty on all cop variants. I flip and you try and use plausible deniability on your involvement in flipping a town pr.

You say he had a gun it never crossed my mind he was one of the many town roles that have a gun

[bob3141]

vannila cop

[bob3141]

didnt crumb this time as every time ive crumbed in teh past. scum have spotted them and killed me

hk n1 . - vannilla
Dp n2 - vannilla

[bob3141]

Why i was focused on hk yesterday.

If I could of got him to roleclaim. I would either catch him out in lie. Or he woudl claim vt and i would know he was likely town. As scum usually fake claims.

Althought it was suprise when porkens claimed vt. Made me think at the end of day that way woudl scum not do the usual fake claim

[bob3141]

Vanilla Cop is exactly the fakeclaim scum gives if caught by a gunsmith

see if you were a town gunsmith i thought you woudl tried to get me run up. And try to get a claim first

Not this desperate attempt to fake a guilty. Knowing that you could dodge out of the blame by simply saying your result was right but it was just false guilty


I could very much see you being a scum gunsmith. We have vig, a vannilla cop. and simple doc.

[bob3141]

bob, are you denying having a gun?

I have no ability to kill


but im vannilla cop. And cops, rolecops and vannilla cops all have guins

I can only assume this is what nm has seen with his scum role.

[bob3141]

didnt crumb this time as every time ive crumbed in teh past. scum have spotted them and killed me

hk n1 . - vannilla
Dp n2 - vannilla

Examples please

In mafia mole. flav spotted my role day one.
when i was alien scum spotted my role day one and got me lynched

The onyl time i didnt get outed early was the first game i played where i was mason. When i didnt crumb once.


So why woudl crumb and make my role worthless. I out that im vannilla cop. and scum know that. So icant catch them in fake role claims

[bob3141]

Why exactly would I as scum be so desperate to get rid of you, you're not a widely townread player, there have been pushes on you since earlygame and you're a very weak investigative role?

Are you saying why scum wouldnt want to get a 3rd mislynch. When they have a way to row back

The only push on me all game has been you.

A small one from cat and bit of one from green.

So you would be unlikely to get me mislynched without a bit of fake claim. And i always guess right in lylo.

[bob3141]

I also pushed the Porkens slot the hardest outside of GC

Seen you do this as scum. Where you bussed your buddies just like how you pushed porkens.

So i dont see it as clearing you. You could be town hard pushign porkens but ive seen you hard buss back to back your buddies before.

My meta with you is that one game where you were scum game and another when you just hammered every going wagon as town.

[bob3141]

Do you think GC and I are partners and arranged the JOAT claim, or do you think I'm mafia JOAT?

Either you are just a scum mail man and your buddy is either rolecop or gunsmith

Or your scum joat. with mailman and some kind of investigate action.


Why are you trying to make a claim that you can only be scum with CG. I cant see a fellow towny making such a claim as its very disingenuous claim. As all your action proves is that you were able to send a message to CG. And this has no bearing on his alignment should you be scum. All it means is that you would have used a mailman action on player roundly town read to credit for porkens flip. And why woudl you send a message to green a player that wanted porkens. The message CG has claimed. Wouldnt you have sent something else. Rather than we need to lynch teh player you already want to lynch.


Thing is if you were so sure I was scum why did you waste a gunsmith night action as you claim on me. You seem to be trying to claim that you wouldnt fake a guilty on me as i was easy to lynch. If that was so wouldnt you have used it on null slot and simply pushed my lynch.
And since your claiming to have guility on me clearly you must have thought that you couldnt have easily mislynched me. Or in the unlikely case your town, unknowingly mislynched me. I can could see a town you pushign me today but i cant see you using your one claimed gunsmith action one me. If you genuinely beleived that i was an easy enough lynch that a scum you would never fake a guilty. I would have thought you would have softed a result for another player. Either getting a guility or clear. and tried to lynch me even. Ultimately if you were town would flip as your fellow town pr.

[bob3141]

You want town to be lynched, to help a mafia win.

Why would I sacrifice myself to do so, there were plenty of players more vulnerable to getting lynched than me at the end of the last day phase

Again disingenuous, a scum you would know they could play around with the fact that they could just row back. And claim that they genuinely thought their result they claimed simply wasn't a false guilty.

You're trying to claim that a scum you wouldn't sacrifice yourself to push it to lylo. Even though you could either set up your buddy for the win after your lynch. Or get out of it and misexuc a townie winning the game for yourself and your buddies.

[bob3141]

Thing is if you were so sure I was scum why did you waste a gunsmith night action as you claim on me.

To confirm my read

Why would you need to confirm your read if you were so sure on me day two. You kept saying im sorry i want bob. Yet you kept going back to dun.

If you were so sure i was scum and that you could get me lynched. Wouldnt you if you were realy town have used to it to find who you thought could be my buddy. Instead you use the action on a player you claim to be sure of.

[bob3141]

You were a feasible lynch for tomorrow but not the most likely, now, you're the most likely

So now your rowing back on my likelyhood of being lynched.

Even if you though i was a likely lynch. Woudnt you still if you were town visited someone else. You claim you could of got me lynched with out a result. Yet you didnt visit someoen you though was scum yet couldnt be lynched. If you were geuine i would have though you would have visied soemoen else and claim a inno/guility and claim a guility on me from night one. If you were town. If you were that sure i was scum. Instead you used an action on player you claim to have been sure was scum before the night even started.

Where you that unsure on me that that you had double check me. Yet the way you posted would imply you were 100% set on me beign scum.


And ive only seen scum use words like feasible about lynches. So your in fact saying you thought although possible to get me lynched, if i had revealed i was a pr before you faked your guility. You wouldnt of been able to get me lynched. Thus you would leave a town pr alive.

Again i keep comign back to teh fact if you were town and thought as you say "feasible". Wouldnt you have first tried to run me up and get a claim. Hoping to catch me out as I tried to do with hk slot. To see if he would fake claim a town pr. Even though his role day 2 could only have been vt or goon



VOTE: Nm

Every way i look at it i cant see you being fellow town pr.

[bob3141]

bob you keep saying you wanted to push HK50 to a claim yesterday, but you weren't voting HK50 until like 2 days before deadline

Plain and simple I'm used to 12-14 day long days as opposed to 7 days.


Normally I prefer to wait to give a player a chance to reply to my push on them. Twofold, one so i can get one last read from their final response and secondly I do sort of feel it's a bit rude. The second one I know is a bit silly but that's just the way I am.

Had decided to give hk50 one last night to actually reply before i made my vote on him. As i didnt have time on the sunday to post. With me making my vote lunch time if he either didn't reply or his reply did not give me town vibes

The night before after a quick skim my vote I had seen the dunn wagon start to build up traction again. Even though it had been the counter wagon to porkens at several points during day one. So I made my vote when I could.

[bob3141]

Are we choosing bet. Bob and NM? Can see a world where both claims are true but I'm inclined to believe NM more just because GC vouched.

Bob why did you investigate me N2?

P-Edit: okay my bad. I miss read that. Still, I'd be more inclined to believe that as a town role since it's functionally a fruit vendor

Was poe based.

I had green, maxwell, mala and cat down as sure town.

Already had investigated hk50. Who was my lead scum read day 2.

Leaving nm , power and you.

Was slightly town reading the vota slot. So picked between you and nm. With the intention at the time to pick the other the following night.

If i was right on hk50 then any vanilla result would be soft clear for that player. And any non vanilla result would be useful to catch a scum pr fake claiming vt in a mass claim.

[bob3141]

I'm swearing because the gamestate is absolutely terrible, two players are openly not trying, no one is doing much of anything since you replaced in. I don't hold not being able to catch up with the thread right away against you, it's a difficult task, but truthfully I'm only doing it out of courtesy to give you a chance to play because you inherited a slot that was under suspicion and mainly didn't get voted out yesterday because there was no one present to claim. truthfully i'm half willing to save you the time and effort and vote you out now.

If you do want a shortcut, just read around how the battle mage/clidd/porkens slot interacted with people. Only flipped scum slot, that's what's going to contain the most valuable info.

The game does feel stale. The time between the first and the last post on the latest page is over 36 hours apart.

Compared to the day one wagon on porkens, the wagon on power seems just to sit there with little resistance. Where we had hk50 pushing for a dun execution thought out that day. As well as attacking one of the main players pushing that wagon SG.

A wagon that at one simply kept coming back throughout that day. Breaking up and then reforming. Even being pushed by porkens. With him only dropping it after SG pushed him over his read list. All of sudden he drops any mention of any scum read of his that did not match SGs. Even pivoting to vota scum read so soon after voting dun.

Feels very much to me like porkens trying to work with SG to find an alternative lynch to his own. The convo between them feels t/s. And the fact porkens starts probing the vota slot after his failed dun vote. Leaves me feeling that vota and porkens aren't likely s/s

[bob3141]

Since Dp, hk50 both came up to me as vanilla. And I can verify powers vanilla claim during the night. I doubt he would fake claim to be a vt if he was in fact a scum power role. As the only way for him to avoid me catching him in lie would be to ensure i don't make it to day 4.

So i can't see two scum being likely within the three of them unless powers comes back as not vanilla.


Out of the three hk50 is my chief scum read. The way he kept resisting joining the porkens wagon even though he even at one point said he was fine with a porkens lynch. Yet never joined when the dun wagon had broken up and the porkens wagon kept stalling. With it even at point being a l-1 i think. Yet no suggestion from hk50 even though he expressed that he convinced that bm was scum. Even though he disagreed with a pairing between bm and vota.

In a post where he said a town dun made bm more likely scum and bm more likely town if dun was scum. So even though by his own admission a porkens lynch gave him info on dun alignment. He still resisted joining porkens wagon.

VOTE: Hk50

[bob3141]

It's now day 3 of bob not giving a read on NPOM

You mean day three of you asking the same stupid question. Even though it quite clearly answered in the thread. And in fact you ask it straight after I outright state that I town read the slot.

You really are trying hard to shade me.

[bob3141]

Bob, HK 50 isn't even in the game anymore.

Fully aware. Just a habit of mine. Once kept refering to slot as the original player even though it had 2 replacements by then.

[bob3141]

Looker has made several questionable statements.

Does it bother you that, despite how dumb you think I am, I still didn't replace votato and therefore am not scum?

This argument has no basis in reality. Me replacing votato does not in any way make me scum. Moreover, the fact that you insists it does makes me more likely town.

That would mean I would say Looker is scum #2 and Scum #3 is either Cat, Bob or Dr.

VOTE: bob

Why would you go from a 1 out of 1 to a 1 out of 3? And if there's a dependable guilty, why wait until now to pursue it?

...

I don't do any good to the town dead.

Why aren't we voting Maxwell??

I don't like ANY of these wagons

It's weird that this last minute wagon started on bob and not you. Are you willing to jump on it?

NPOM probably flipping town based on his reaction tbh

Who's scum, then?

I also don't see how survivalism is AI. It looks like he's just jumping on whatever wagon.

I didn't jump on whatever wagon. NM claimed a guilty. At first I was skeptical based on his voting record. NM voted me. I thought it over and decided that Looker/{Bob/Dr/Cat} was pretty likely scum, based on your desperation and poor arguments, and the people not on my wagon, and NM and I decided to switch to Bob based on mutual agreement and logic. I encourage any other players to do the same. The only reason for someone in your position to make the arguments you're making(bad ones) is because you know if you are lynched there is only one player left on their team, and it's probably someone with a guilty on them.

So you're happy to go with any lynch that isn't you.

NM claim of a soft guilt is nothing new. Even if NM is town which I doubt as I've seen him play like this as scum before. Where i just hard tunnels slots. Even getting to lylo and trying this same stunt on clear town. He kept doing the same pretend outrage to get teh last mason to lynch shadd.

Take his claimed guilty, it's one he as scum can row back out of so easily. All it does is confirm me as pr. So it's no guilty and im surprised you would suddenly jump on it. When even your own logic says in all cases looker must be scum.


The one thing it does do is give me a soft clear should we actually lynch who ever is a scum pr.

[bob3141]

Looker actually has a point in that I townread GC and N_M, and otherwise I'd have expected scum to send NoPower packing. I don't support a bob vote at all.

Yep either power is scum. in which case he wouldnt vote for himself and either he is already beign bussed or his partner didnt want to hammer


Or scum was already on his wagon.

[bob3141]

I take that back.

Maybe I already went through this.

BM jumped on the votato wagon as vote five, which put votato at L-2. It was against the competing Dunn-town wagon (who was also at 4 votes). Doesn't make sense to push a buddy's wagon to L-2 when he could've jumped on Dunn-town's wagon to put it at L-2 instead (see 290 and 400).

Yet your voting me.

A player that when bm/clidd and dun were tied at l-3. Broke the tie and pushed clidd to l-2.

Now around vota vote on bm I like you originally thought his vote was bus but some time came to conclusion i didnt think it was likely as why woudl he go for dun instead.


Where as what ever i tried i simply couldnt get hk/looker slot to vote for clidd. We had endless resistance from him over it.

[bob3141]

Deadline is coming, we need to lynch the player with the guilty. If we are wishy washy on if we believe NM, town is doomed, and NM may be acting like a bully and not working with people as much as town should, but lynching bob is the better answer than lynching NM or myself. NM, like I said, could be town investigative, myself, it seems you are going based on votato's voting history, which is fair, but bob is the best lynch by the numbers.

By all means lynch me. But lynching me today only results in mislynch.


Either NM is scum or town. In both cases it doesnt change a thing.

"In Normal games on mafiascum.net, a Gunsmith gets guilties on all Mafia (except Traitors and Doctors), Cops, Vigilantes, Gunsmiths, Role Cops, Vanilla Cops, Vengefuls, Detectives, Neapolitans, Backups of roles with guns and JoATs that have any of these listed powers. A Werewolf faction should be treated the same as any other Mafia family. "


If you think im scum by play by all means if your town mislynch me. If your town all that happens is that if NM is scum is that he claims guilty on you and scum win. Or that you simply get mislynhed and scum win.

Explain this how would i know both hk50/looker slot and DP slot. If i was anythign other than vannilla cop. As the only roles that get that result are vannilla cops and rolecops


And dont mistake me criticising one of my town reads for making a stupid choice. If you think ive played scummy by all means throw the game.

[bob3141]

Power answer my point though

On play what do you think of me.


As I am proven vannilla cop.


Hell ill even hammer myself tommorrow if we catch the goon today. As it wins the game for us townies.

I get 2 clears in a 4 mylo. Plus the named townie from mod mistake. So scum can only kill one.

[bob3141]

And answer me this powers why wouldnt i lolhammer. If i was realy scum with a player claiming a guilty why wouldnt i simply lolhammer and push the game to mylo


Instead you were at l-1 for over 36 hours. Even renewing my push on looker

[bob3141]

What are your night actions again?

night 1 hk - vannilla
night 2 dp - vanilla

[bob3141]

I would consider not voting you only if we can get a lynch on Looker instead. But I don't see that happening. Even if you're not lying, which is very possible if you were a role cop or some other investigative, it doesn't prove your alignment.

Then vote looker. We catch the goon. And although tomorrow my lynch would be a mislynch. At that point it still eliminates 2 players from being scum. I clear you and dp. Whereas if we mislynch me today. It leaves you wide open to being mislynced tomorrow. And we

I feel it's no surprise that for most of today the main pushes have been on me and you.. If they let me get another night action. I get the chance to get soft clear on you. Pushes have been on me and you. Scum needs to execute one of us today or you get defacto clear. If scum doesnt lynch one us they move the game to auto.

[bob3141]

Power answer my point though

On play what do you think of me.


As I am proven vannilla cop.


Hell ill even hammer myself tommorrow if we catch the goon today. As it wins the game for us townies.

I get 2 clears in a 4 mylo. Plus the named townie from mod mistake. So scum can only kill one.

1) You're not proven

2) Vanilla Cops don't get clears

Then how do i know hk and dp were both vannila roles. Do you think i plucked it out of my arse. Thus i am proven vannilla cop as there is no other way i would know. The only other role i could be is if i was role cop and wanted to keep a card hidden to catch scum pr fake claims. But alas im just vannilal cop.

See what i dont get is that your very eager to kill the one role that can get a soft clear on powers. I woudl be able to say for sure that dp, looker and powers are all vannilal roles.

So if you were town. We would have in effect proved only one at most of them could be scum. If we caught teh goon today. Then we would know for sure 2 clears. As do you realy think town gets a simple vig with scum only having one goon.


Would have been funny if i was town role cop again. But lighting doesnt often strike twice.

Was funny in that game if i hadnt been nigthkilled the gunsmith might actualy have got a fasle guility in that one. But scum spotted my crumbs very early and i got run up and night killed
If you use your brain any role can get clears. I take it your not a natural cludeo player.



All roles get clears.

[bob3141]

Mafia Doctor is very possible in this set-up as a miller to the gunsmith and to protect from partners from the vig whilst still being vulnerable to it themself, Vanilla Cops are glorified named townies

how about this if i cant solidly prove to you that im town tommorrow. Ill hammer myself. It be mislynch but atleast at that point i move the game into auto. And there is no way for teh rest of town to mess it up.

vannila cops are more than just named townies. Think cludeo

By ctachign teh goon and giving my night 3 results. I eliminate any chance of two players being scum.

Added to named town pr (practicly a mason after it) from a mod mistake and green being sure town.

[bob3141]

And if your scum then town have already lost. Doubt you would be walking into any masons in this one

[bob3141]

I vannilla copped powers last night but got no result. At first I thought scum had roleblocked me but seeing cats flip. It's more likely that cat simply roleblocked me last night. Even if all it did was stop a fellow townie verifying powers role claim.

[bob3141]

To see if they were scum fake claiming vt. If he came up not vannilla i would have know for sure he was scum lying about being a pr.

Alternative was nm who if he was scum. Would certainly come up not vannilla as he already claimed to have sent a message to green. Which green confirmed so at the very least he is mailman. So wouldnt learn anything there

already visited dp. And you, cat and green had been town reads at point

[bob3141]

And seeing the fact that cat was a odd night pr and not full pr. Im inclined to beleive nm is town. As it does leave a hole in town pr if he is scum.

By my guesstimation even if we faced a full team of goons

Vanilla cop
2 shot simple vig
Simple doc
Odd night roleblocker
Plus if nm role is a joat.


a scum nm would leave us short of town power

[bob3141]

YOU ARE NOT CONFIRMED TOWN

I am pretty sure you're scum

We know one thing and that was that the game continued. Do you really think the game would've continued if maxwell was scum simple doctor or simple doctor wasn't in the.

And that's ignoring the fact scum simple doctor makes no sense with two shot simple vig. So that only leaves it being a role not in game. If that was the case we would have been told. If that was the case no way would the game would have continued.


So I don't get your push on maxwell after cats flipped a role other than a simple doctor. Even after Maxwell's claim it. That makes him a defacto named townie on par with mason. Did you think that green was the simple doctor instead?

[bob3141]

Since maxwell is confirmed town via mod mistake.
And i feel NM being scum would leave us with hole in our town power.

It does look like we have poe of 3 with 2 scum in it

[bob3141]

You're all assuming the mod error directly impacted this game instead of it simply being a role mistake.

The game could have been paused *because* of speculation exactly like this

Why do you think the mod wouldnt explicitly state the issue was simply a role mistake and not him incorrectly flipping another role that existed in this game.

As it would if what your arguing is true open a can of worms with role speculation. As if there was no town role matching that it would give scum a safe fake claim. Do you still think maxwell is scum?

[bob3141]

GC is scum.

What makes you think CG is scum. Is it mostly based on Poe?

[bob3141]

been busy at work will catch up when i can latter today

[bob3141]

It really can't be me. Although I thought about it and I want to vote doctorpepper now.

Ive been leaning that way too. I just dont get why he would just keep pushing a slot that is defacto confirmed town by mod mistake. It maybe due to a mod error but i cant see the mod not stating that the role had no bearing on the game if it wasnt in game. Rather than his mistake being him flipping the wrong town role. Certainly is bizarre that doctorpepper would choose to push the one slot that is on par with a mason post mason flip. As maxwell apart from myself is the one player I'm most sure is town.

So i dont get why he would continue to push your slot by responding to your vote on powers by calling it a bus.

[bob3141]

Its just as much him continuing to push a slot that's near highly likely to flip town. If the mod had flipped the wrong role as well as it being one that didn't exist. I can't see the mod either saying the role simple doc did not exist or something more drastic.

He keeps coming back with claims he suspect maxwell yesterday before the full role claim. But that migth be so but doesnt change the underlying fact of maxwells claim. Ive seen fellow town push mason while scum back off but never after one of the masons flipped. And the mod mistake for all intensive purposes made maxwel an IC.

[bob3141]

Just can't see it coming from town. As I've seen town stubbornly push masons that although not confirmed were in practice so. By the glaring hole in town power that hadn't been CC.

And throughout DP push on max he hasn't addressed the fact that if maxwell was scum that it would leave a hole in town power.


Which begs the weird bus? Comment Dp made as soon as maxwell pushed powers to E-2

[bob3141]

VOTE: DP

[bob3141]

Also lol, you're claiming I'm.scum because I said "bus" when it's clear that I thought both of you were scum?

Clownery

I’m suspecting you BECAUSE of your play today.

It’s seriously suspect.

Not the bus comment. Your pushing max out of nowhere. And hanging on to it. Doesn’t feel genuine.

So if you suspect pepper by your own logic shouldnt you already be voting Doctorpepper.


Only yesterday you were prodding maxwell to go for powers. If although wrongly you genuinely think its me plus one of dp/powers. Shouldnt you have been prodding maxwell to go for doctor pepper.

[bob3141]

will be on later today

[bob3141]

short of time today so will be breif

I think Nm is town as him beign scum would leave a hole in town power.

doc 2 shot vig, simple doc, even rb , VC is just two little tp without something extra. The question is, are we facing 3 goons or 2 goons and scum pr. As even with nm joat pr our town power does still look a little weak.

If the later it cant be green. But if scum do have a pr then by process of elimination it would have to be powers. With me leaning towards this game not having 3 goons due to teh simple vig/doc.

At the moment im leaning powers as being the town read that i was wrong about.

[bob3141]

Who did you check last night?

As i said i checked green.

[bob3141]

No I'm saying he didn't claim his action in his post as he said he did.

see the 4th line with the 3rd line as context.


3rd line context "The question is, are we facing 3 goons or 2 goons and scum pr."


4th line "If the later it cant be green".

Was me confirming that green is as he claimed vannilla and couldnt be a scum pr. The last two sentance in line 3 should of prob been the other way round to make it clearer.

[bob3141]

At the moment im leaning powers as being the town read that i was wrong about.

I'd like to hear your suspicions on both NPOM and GC.

I was a little suspicious of you after the last day. Where you claimed that your read was bob plus power/dp. Yet seemed happy to vote powers if maxwel was ok with that. After you had stated that you really wanted to vote dp. While you had been pushing a town read there much of the game.

So I wanted to be sure that my original town read on you was right. If you came up as pr then i would know for sure that you were scum. And if vanilla, highly likely that you were vt and not a goon.


While my town read on powers during day 3 was mostly based on my belief that hk50/looker was scum. With vota being unlikely to be lookers partner.
And looking back, powers vote change from me to looker does make a lot of sense. Why mislynch me day 3, when he could take me into 6p lylo with two players that had not long before been voting me.

And why he was so happy to flip flop between hk50 and dunn day 2. Lol hammering dunn without a role claim near deadline. Even though he could have extended that day by another 24 hours.

[bob3141]

VOTE: NoPowerOverMe

[bob3141]

Quite curous what the dead have to say.

So powers were you scum

[bob3141]

Have we already been endgamed or does night have to happen before it gets announced that we have lost and that scum have won.

[bob3141]

I wasnt a vannilla cop but was a scum rolecop. The game before this i rolled a town rolecop

[bob3141]

we killed mala to both fram vota/powers slot and get a hk50 lynch before vota/powers

[bob3141]

Yep the balance was good.

[bob3141]

yep was gg. Several points I thought that town had it in the bag. Very touch and go

[bob3141]

Town prob would have won but that had nothing to do with you. The reason we wanted to get hk50 lynched before vota and then you. Was that we realy needed the hk50 mislynch and were unlikely to get it in lylo.

[bob3141]

As your slots vote was needed for it to go through

[bob3141]

Did the game have a dead thread. As if so, i'm quite curious what the dead thought as the game went on

[bob3141]

I thought i did a good job in building your wagon. I had been sabotaging the porkens lynch all day.

[bob3141]

Wrote every post in google docs this game. Its prob actualy a scum tell that i had no quick fire posts with typos