Mini Normal 2148 (Post Game)

[HK 50]

Vote for mala, vote for not_mafia. I can't decide which wagon I want to join! Guess Im gonna sheep farside, plain and simple.

VOTE: mala

[Accusation:]

This is a poorly designed attempt to mask what equates to straightforward buddying. Such an egregious demonstration makes my photoreceptors malfunction master.

VOTE: Notscience

[Mockery:]

Just like sheeps to the slaughter; this one needs to be silenced.

[HK 50]

VOTE: hk 50 i know that you're really an assassin droid

[Annoying recitation:]

Yes master, I am an 'Assassin' droid in the sense I excel at exterminating space vermin infestations. My main duties are serving as a protocol droid however. Let us proceed to facilitate communications, and bring about the termination of hostilities.

[HK 50]

Oh if you dont like buddying youre gonna hate me

[Addendum:]

I find it more dramatic and efficient in terms of preserving my memory core's database to not allow my behavior core to 'hate' organics, Master. Besides, blasting them with a tri-light Artech Blaster rifle tends to lead to a more favorable outcome.

[HK 50]

VOTE: notscience

It's been a while

[Query:]

How did a canned, carbonated beverage gain enough sentience to operate in a theater of social deductions? My sensors indicate there is no installation of any hardware located in the metal composition that makes up the can.

[HK 50]

[Irradiated Statement:]

More shameless buddying? How can I enjoy executing my assassination protocols by wrapping my durasteel vicegrips around organic's boney necks when they offer no countermeasure? I've never seen such a species who end up praising a self-proclaimed harbinger of their doom over the forced expression of said harbinger's vocalizer.

[Wearily Resignation:]

Farside and Notscience imitate the mindless pacifistic ideology of the idoitic jedi, and thus should be terminated with exterminated with extreme prejudice. Such passive behavioral tendencies and mindset tend to come from our targets, the organization known as the mafia, who prefer subtle influencing and lack the backbone to call out the rest of the ship early on.

[Confession:]

They are also preventing the very conflict I wish to experience.

[HK 50]

[Annoyed Observation:]

It seems the com-link I use ended up translating several vocal expressions into incorrect grammatical practices.

[HK 50]

[Statement:]

Master Farside! I would advise you not to argue my existence is "made up". It accidently trips my Mark II Philosophy unit, making me ponder my programming. After all, I'm currently in a state of ethical bliss where I massacre all organics in the same, wanton style. Tempering which such a perfect wiring will only lead to decrease efficiency.

UNVOTE: notscience
VOTE: Farside

[Observation:]

However master, I am rather perplexed by the tonal discharge displayed by you in post 29. Despite my strewed desires, you seem deadly serious in your apology when the thread's tone was akin to cheerful banter. Why did you felt the need to Apolgize for the lack of murdering?

[Addendum:]

Assuming your dialogue with Dunnstral has reached its concordance with its primary directive, what did you hope to gain from asking him such a question? It seems you believe that Dunnstral demonstrated a logical gap in that another game he was pushed for being passive as town, yet pushes Notscience here for it. Is this correct? If so, what makes you believe the phrasing by Dunnstral in said evidence is not influenced by random voting stage behavior? As that would be the consequence of such a read.

[HK 50]

[Statement:]

Master Farside! I would advise you not to argue my existence is "made up". It accidently trips my Mark II Philosophy unit, making me ponder my programming. After all, I'm currently in a state of ethical bliss where I massacre all organics in the same, wanton style. Tempering which such a perfect wiring will only lead to decrease efficiency.

UNVOTE: notscience
VOTE: Farside

[Observation:]

However master, I am rather perplexed by the tonal discharge displayed by you in post 29. Despite my strewed desires, you seem deadly serious in your apology when the thread's tone was akin to cheerful banter. Why did you felt the need to Apolgize for the lack of murdering?

[Addendum:]

Assuming your dialogue with Dunnstral has reached its concordance with its primary directive, what did you hope to gain from asking him such a question? It seems you believe that Dunnstral demonstrated a logical gap in that another game he was pushed for being passive as town, yet pushes Notscience here for it. Is this correct? If so, what makes you believe the phrasing by Dunnstral in said evidence is not influenced by random voting stage behavior? As that would be the consequence of such a read.

I thought you were saying you were trying to use your mmmmmm.......... performance to do a reaction test, so I was apologizing if I ruined your fun.
As for Dunn I was curious about his vote and reasoning on NS. I don't think passive is a scum tell if someone was passive themselves. So my question was to see his response to that that. So far I would say his response is noncommittal. Also I'm not a big RVS wagon ho type. So I question players on wagons typically.

[Cross examination:]

I can understand that rational for the apology and the Dunnstral progression. Mainly the tonal points tripped my circuits because of the lack of understanding my post(s) may of been interpreted as a reaction test.

UNVOTE: Farside

[General Query:]

What does the thread think of master Malakitten's posts?

[HK 50]

Now taking a deeper look into HT50.

If one of Vot or HT50 flips scum I’m ok with them being partnered. This is HT50’s first game. I obv get it that’s it’s an alt account. But the whole knowledge felt off to me

[Query:]

Addtionally, what was the extent of this "deeper look"? What methodology was used?

[HK 50]

Sorry to say, but I'm not a big fan of the gimmick. It makes it a bit of a chore to read the thread. It feels bad to vote them because of it and it feels bad to parse the posts.

Also, all the talk about past games is confusing. Could I convince you all to either stop/limit it or explain it to those of us who lack the context to interpret it?

[Statement:]

Master, it is perfectly acceptable to admit my superiority in both language and charisma. Although, I do appreciate your rebuttal to the acceptance of my vocalizer when the rest of the organics seemingly praising it.

[HK 50]

[Observation:]

How curious. It seems others had pings about master malakitten, yet did not share the same rationale my process had. In any case, at least it served to move the game forward.

[Clarification:]

I had no issues with the votato/Hk50 scum point (Although I firmly disagree with such a coupling and the reasons behind it. Besides, be paired with an organic? My vocalizer cannot begin to describe the level of disgust). My issue was simply the volume of master malakitten posts regarding to the matter being greater than how it was being progressed. In other words, it felt malakitten was overdoing the analysis to appear to be scumhunting despite not changing her stance on the matter since the first post made on it.

Now taking a deeper look into HT50.

If one of Vot or HT50 flips scum I’m ok with them being partnered. This is HT50’s first game. I obv get it that’s it’s an alt account. But the whole knowledge felt off to me

[Query:]

Addtionally, what was the extent of this "deeper look"? What methodology was used?

Your total topic. I don’t know who your main is and honestly I’m not going to waste the little time I have to try to sort it out. You’re playing an old gimmick and that’s fine with me. As long as it doesn’t interfere with trying to sort you I’m ok with that.

[Answer:]

My true master and I operate on a vast difference in approaches. Nonetheless, we both agree on the ruthless, efficent approach to playing mafia.

[HK 50]

[Declaration:]

Townlean on the sentinent green crayons.

[HK 50]

I don't like the way you went about the early game, votato + hk50, and then the notscience vote

Is this a chronological description of Mala's play?

I'm pointing to what I didn't like.

[Query:]

Point harder. You organics have ten digits after all. What about her votato + HK50 read was unsettling considering your stance on the matter?

[HK 50]

Either mala is scum and unafraid of the spotlight or as i feel at the moment a fellow townie that simply does not have anything to fear in the first place.

[Recitation:]

Master bob3141, may I need to remind you I unvoted when the Notscience wagon reached four?

[Query:]

If your experience states that scum tends to hop off a band wagon during random voting, which for the record master I find to be a highly ridiculous notion, then what is your current position on my true alignment considering the after mention switch off?

[HK 50]

Either mala is scum and unafraid of the spotlight or as i feel at the moment a fellow townie that simply does not have anything to fear in the first place.

[Recitation:]

Master bob3141, may I need to remind you I unvoted when the Notscience wagon reached four?

[Query:]

If your experience states that scum tends to hop off a band wagon during random voting, which for the record master I find to be a highly ridiculous notion, then what is your current position on my true alignment considering the after mention switch off?

I dont quite get why your jumping on me pointing out that scum are far more likley to jump off a rvs wagon when it reaches 4 then to be the actual one to push it to 4.

[Statement:]

I prefer targets to jump towards me. That way they land on the cyropellet landmine.

However, you stated that scum is much more likely to hope off when it reaches four votes. That's what my action was. Hence I'm curious to see what read you have on me, as theoretically I should be likely to be scum as well. Rather or not I pushed it shouldn't matter with how you phrased the original logic or this continuation of it.

[HK 50]

I ask as at the moment i'm in a slight town reading mala. In my experience scum tends to avoid jumping on rvs wagons when they have already stacked up 3 votes. Either mala is scum and unafraid of the spotlight or as i feel at the moment a fellow townie that simply does not have anything to fear in the first place.

Only seen twice scum on 4thed place on rvs wagon. One was when scum was being rvs wagoned and the other was a scum player that spent much of the rest of the game jumping on wagons.


And mala comments on hk feel that it matches that pattern as well. Of a anotehr townie that inst afraid to get their neck stuck in and let thier views be known.

In my experience scum dont like being caught on large wagon in vs.

Take my last completed mini. Although i was on losing side if you looked back at day one. scum rvs voted me and as soon as i picked up my 4th vote. That Scum player was teh first to jump off. And infact tried to distance them selves from that wagon.

[Clarification:]

Expect you gave a strong case for why such a behavior is scummy and even provide evidence that scum tends to not commit to higher bandwagons in random voting stage. I'm aware it isn't identical, but my situation has aspects of that which to my photoreceptors indicates there should be some feeling one way or another based on my unvote.

I said theorically I'm scum from your point of view due in part by your own admission you were confused to why I am asking you this line of queries. I don't particularly care what the actual alignment is, but rather your thought process behind it in order to gague your master malakitten read.

[Demand:]

Look at that specific interaction of me unvoting. You given me the range I fall in, but only off the logic of me misconducting processing your point. Disregard that and analyze that temporal moment in space. What range would you rank that unvote to be in?

[HK 50]

Hm. I really did just like HK 137. But I want to see how that progresses

That post has a bad gut feeling, but will wait for redemption

[Interrogation:

Master Malakitten, you have made several posts showing a stance without explaining it nor fully committing to it. Please explain your pings. Has the interaction with master bob3141 reached a finite conclusion read wise considering you town ping both of us?

[HK 50]

I'll catch up later, but for now:

VOTE: HK 50 - biggest wagon and he appears to have a horrible post restriction and needs to be put out of his misery.

[Definition:]

Efficiency: the ratio of the useful work performed by a machine or in a process to the total energy expended or heat taken in.

Known antonyms: Master Battle Mage

[HK 50]

What the fuck is my reaction to the current battle Mages posts.

@Notty:

Right now scum wise I’m kinda getting some pings, but nothing solid as of yet. {Vot, Dunn, BM}
I have more town pings than scum pings. {HK, bob}

[Visual Confusion;]

Master Malakitten, please remember the counting system of your organic species goes one two three, not one three two.

My photoreceptors see three scum pings and two town pings.

[HK 50]

[Statement:]

The lack of actual discussion is making my circuits moderately irritated. There cannot be ruthless slaughter like this.

VOTE: Dunnstral

Master Battle Mage feel free to explain the basis of your read.

[HK 50]

Spoiler: Master notscience posts about master malakitten

I don’t think she’s scummy for that I don’t like her 64 but I’m still reacquainting myself

I also just realized I told her I’m not voting her yet but my rvs is still on her and feel dumb

I don’t really get the farside scumread either because I’ve been agreeing with every one of her posts

But no seriously I think her mala read makes decent sense especially given the info available thus far

Pedit-

Eh. Seemed over the top to me, but as I said I’m still getting reacquainted and it’s why I’m not pushing it besides my first comment and your questions.

For the record I didn’t get the reference until votato explained it but as I said in my iso it’s a billion dollar franchise it’s not a surprise some people know it

I don’t think she’s scummy for that I don’t like her 64 but I’m still reacquainting myself

I also just realized I told her I’m not voting her yet but my rvs is still on her and feel dumb

Ns, this feels so noncommittal and I'm not a fan right now

You’re a towel

I didn’t think wagoning mala would be fruitful at this point in time and wanted to let it develop

I’m alive

Mala who’s scum

[Query:]

Master Notscience what is your actual views on Master Malakitten?

In posts 70 and 74, you agree that there are posts that ping you as potentially mafia esk. However, come post 145 it seems this is no longer your current thought process.

[HK 50]

I’m giving mala space bc I’m nice and also a wee bit drunk

There’s more than one way to skin a huma- a ca- an animal

[Rebuttal:]

Space to do what exactly? You asked a similar question to Masters Doctorpepper and Farside right afterwards which indicated to my sensors it was directed towards townish people in your perspective. Or is this wrong?

[Accusation:]

During the Farside vs Malakitten interaction, you simultaneously supported farside read while also pleading the case that somebody not knowing the reference is NAI. I would have no issue with this had you committed to something like: "Master Farside push was good for the info at the time, but ultimately I find the points raised to be NAI".

In short, I see you as someone who is fencesitting. Your actions seemed planned to respond to whatever the threads focus was at the time. When master Malakitten was being pushed, you voiced suspicion in post 70 and 74 fueling it. When the pressure waned and was redirected to Dunnstral/farside, you casually begin to treat master malakitten as town tonally.

[Unrelated Answer:]

Indeed, there are many ways to deleather an organic being. The easiest of course is to set the still breathing body over a roasting fire to soften the skin. A quick few dashes with a vibrosword tends to be all you need afterwards master. Shall I give more methodology?

[HK 50]

Hm. I really did just like HK 137. But I want to see how that progresses

That post has a bad gut feeling, but will wait for redemption

[Interrogation:

Master Malakitten, you have made several posts showing a stance without explaining it nor fully committing to it. Please explain your pings. Has the interaction with master bob3141 reached a finite conclusion read wise considering you town ping both of us?

Right now I’m liking bob’s posts. The way he’s going about is very similar to the last game we played together. I’m starting to see you scum hunting while you’re using your gimmick. A lot of players that use gimmicks hide behind it and don’t actually scum hunt. So that give me town pings.

Where as Battle Mange is the post I was referring to that felt a scum ping IMO. That’s way before he even thought I was OMGUSing him.

[Rebuttal:]

I can understand the town pings, but do you also have knowledge of scum!bob3141?

I understand the context of the master battle mage ping. I'm asking you to explain what in the original post sticks out as scummy in your eyes.

[HK 50]

bob's posts look like scum trying to effort. (shrug)

[Query:]

While the movements of your upper filaments is quite an 'effective' form of communication, can you please explain this further?

[HK 50]

Green Crayons Notes

He has played extremely safe and cautious, not really going out on a limb on anything, and only really focussing on either highlighting people's towniness, or criticising other's arguments for people's scumminess (which is generally easy for scum to do because they know who is actually scum). In his first 18 posts (all of them prior to my vote) he hadn't indicated suspicion of ANYONE. His only vote was a random vote on Farside - I know it was random because he made it very clear by saying "eenie meanie minie mo". The only other thing of note is that his 4th post was an apology (which incidentally was the thing which pinged me into doing an ISO) for being rude...only he hadn't really been that rude? by the standards of this site, it was about as courteous as a criticism gets. So the apology just seemed a bit OTT and like he was walking on eggshells. No meta yet, but an absence of town enthusiasm or active engagement - more of the commentating from the sidelines style.

[Statement:]

I wouldnt say 'overly cautious' as a description of his play, but I do see the point you raise over his lack of actually voicing reads in reference to alignment and not mafia theory.

Humor my durasteel frame for a moment, and paint me a picture of what you would expect town!master Green Crayons. Keeping the context that he voiced that the situation was NAI, what would you propose him to be doing?

[HK 50]

I am currently a few pages into reading, but would like to make a request. @HK50, I love your posting style -- so nothing against it -- but could you possibly use less sophisticated words to get your points across? I can understand what you are saying if I really spend time looking into your every post, but it is very hard to read some of your posts on the surface.

Another reason I ask this is because using a ton of more complicated words makes it more difficult than normal to read your intentions. This posting style could be extremely effective for scum to hide behind, because it is an easy way for them to blanket their intentions, because a lot more effort is needed than typical to truly assess their motives.

And if you are town, then it should make sense why this could become an issue. Because if people are having to spend too much time looking at a townplayer's posts to unpack their motives, it takes away from their focus of scumhunting, which absolutely could lead us down the wrong path in the long run.

[Answer:]

Oh master stungun0404, you wound me! Not physically, but linguistically!

[Confession:]

While I do understand the point of your request, do note that such verbose vocabulary is natural to me. I will attempt to 'simplify' my post's wording, yet I'm not sure if I can adequately voice it any better if I do.

My declaration of intent though what precedes my paragraphs are non-negotiable. They are hard wired into my programming. However, admiss longer posts in the later stages of the game (assuming the mafia fails to assess my threat level correctly), I think such a formatting will prove to be useful.

[Statement:]

I will try, but do not hold me to it.

[HK 50]

[Egotistical Boast:]

Although I do find it quite amusing the ramifications my sheer existence has had so far. The debates about me being a fictitious video game character to the exquisite nature of my vocalizer, why, it makes me feel a hint of individuality amongst my fellow models.

[Egotistical Boast:]

I feel...good about how much of a twist my...posting has resulted in.

[HK 50]

It’s the people in this game I’m used to ask any of them

[Statement:]

My mistake then. Can you please answer what the purpose was to giving Mala space then rather than push them further?

[HK 50]

Either mala is scum and unafraid of the spotlight or as i feel at the moment a fellow townie that simply does not have anything to fear in the first place.

[Query:]

If your experience states that scum tends to hop off a band wagon during random voting, which for the record master I find to be a highly ridiculous notion, then what is your current position on my true alignment considering the after mention switch off?

This is a little bit of an odd focus, to my view, if you are town. Why do you want someone focusing on something you did rather than something someone else produced so you can have a better awareness of the gamestate if you are town? What benefit do you gain from this unless you are scum trying to get someone to read you a certain way?

I have also done something similar to this as scum, so that's a second red flag, and I am noting this.

[Answer:]

Because I was the only applicable player.

My question to master bob3141 served both as a reaction test and to gague his continuation of the RVS wagon theory. Regardless of master malakitten alignment, I believe there is both town and scum motivation behind his townlean on her. To make it clear before I explain it deeper, I take bob3141's theory to imply: "Scum tend to be uncomfortable committing to a larger RVS wagon which leads them to make mistakes in handling them which are AI".

Scum!bob3141 motivation, in my opinion, would of been to trade defending master malakitten in order to pressure her attackers. Hence I gave him a situation that gave him an opportunity to scum read me using the same logic he townread master malakitten for but flipped. The fact he ended townreading me was was irrelevant, although I find the reasoning behind it acceptable. The lack of pushing master farside caught my eye however, since I think it would of been easy to frabicate scum motivation in that intial push by her (assuming shes town) which points to it being a genuine thought by him.

Now, notably he did end up pressuring Master Dunnstral and the sentient can (DoctorPepper) afterwards in posts 203, 205, 210, and 275. However, I find the manner these are done in to be townie and it seemed more as an consequence of my poking than a planned pressuring which my theory about scum!bob3141 would suggest.

[Confession:]

Rather embarrassingly the reaction test I planned to see what Bob's reaction was to being prompted to expose more info became flawed by my own error. I recognized during the interaction my intial question was leading in nature, which makes speculating into his reaction to my request differcult to judge.

[HK 50]

@DoctorPepper, @Dunnstral, @Geraintm, @ Votato do you guys have any early townleans/town indications?

@NotScience, could you please lay a vote down somewhere? Doesn't matter if you pick the wrong person, a vote is better than no vote.

[Statement:]

This makes me feel better about Master stungun0404. There was a, since I'm not allowed to use sophisticated words, mixture of two fallacies present in the analysis on me. Though I think it's more bad townie logic than scum using it to overtly justify a stance given the branch out here.

[HK 50]

I have not personally seen scum bob, have you?

[Answer:]

No. That's why I was curious if there was any obvious difference.

[HK 50]

[Statement:]

The lack of actual discussion is making my circuits moderately irritated. There cannot be ruthless slaughter like this.

VOTE: Dunnstral

Master Battle Mage feel free to explain the basis of your read.

I agree with your vote but your line of questioning was not leading to this, what do you really feel about Dunn?

[Confession:]

I'll fully admit my vote on master Dunnstral is more me agreeing with what's been said about him. Call it sheeping if you will. I want to see commitment either from him defending the master malakitten or moving from it rather than the statements he has given so far.

I am currently a few pages into reading, but would like to make a request. @HK50, I love your posting style -- so nothing against it -- but could you possibly use less sophisticated words to get your points across? I can understand what you are saying if I really spend time looking into your every post, but it is very hard to read some of your posts on the surface.

Another reason I ask this is because using a ton of more complicated words makes it more difficult than normal to read your intentions. This posting style could be extremely effective for scum to hide behind, because it is an easy way for them to blanket their intentions, because a lot more effort is needed than typical to truly assess their motives.

This. This is a good town post. Encapsulates my feelings. Great entrance and I think you're town

In fact, I think HK not breaking his posting pattern might actually make me question him

[Query:]

Explain the bold.

So we moved from video game debate to vernacular debate

don't get medical with me!

Anyone got a meta read on BM? Is he more jokey and not serious as town or scum?

Answer:]

His jokey nature is shared among his town and scum play. The emoji usage etc. There are some differences that can be used, although they come latter. To summarize them: you have to look at overall motivation in his posts in accordance to the gamestate.

[HK 50]

[Confession:]

I do not like the Sentient can's (Doctorpepper) 261. While I have no issues with the issues with my vocalizer, his suspicions of it being AI indicative strikes me as scum driven given his posts before and after the post. Before this, he remarked a post of mine as 'very townie' (255) indicating he has content related reasons to support a town read even despite his question about my master Dunnstral vote.

This leads me to interpret 261 more as him shading my slot to fuel Master Stungun4040's doubts of me while also attempting to buddy the slot with the first paragraph. He doesn't actually question me over why I kept posting in my style nor attempts to do so afterwards. It honestly doesn't do much to further Stunguns4040 read on me rationally and exists just to indicate support.

Post 264 afterwards paints me as me being limited to a light townread solely due to the posting style. I don't feel this aligns with the content town point he raised in post 255 and feels artificially worded this way to leave the door open to scumreading me.

[HK 50]

probably town? Dunno, there are mostly just questions coming from hk and not much analysis

Not a bad point. Would like to see HK produce an analysis when they get the chance.

[Smart-Ass Analysis:]

Spoiler:

I believe that Master geraintm lack of enjoying day 1 is due to the over abundance of metal darts in his cranium. I fear this has affected his higher brain functions related, but not limited to: Emotional and linguistic analysis, short and long term memory recollection, ability to apply theory of mind, production of speech and writing, and control over the expunging of bodily fluids.

As such, Master Geraintm needs harder posts like votes due to a requirement of his lost of brain function. These types of posts provide a harder guideline for him to follow which aids him. This is why it's highly recommended not to willfully introduce spikes of metal into vital parts of an organics body expect in assassinations and surgery.

This analysis was also not done to showcase the ability to fake and bullshit an analysis. This is a one hundred percent legitimate evaluation of the mental state of Master geraintm (or lack there of).

[HK 50]

[Statement:]

My presence is needed elsewhere on the ship currently, so I shall return once done.

[Post-editorial:

I shall read that post returning

[HK 50]

[Ineffectual mentality:]

Currently my circuits are quite encumbered by vast amounts of backproccesses.

In the mundane sense, I'm the equivalent of being "very tired and stressed" for an organic.

As such, I shall not come to correct you all on who scum is just yet no no no. I am going to enjoy a nice long diagnostic in my quarters. However, to avoid being struck with the very overdue prod, know this: master Dunnstral still looks scummy. This is not the prod dodge you are looking for.

[Statement:]

I also wasnt aware you could actually give another player control of your vote. Interesting.

[HK 50]

Ok I'm tired of roleplaying and in general, so let's just skip the formalities and get to the murdering of scum MKAY? Since there hasn't been a murder yet, it seems you need some guidance MKAY? And I'm not talking about spiritual means, though some of you sicks fucks need that too MKAY?

MKAYYYYYY?!

(I'm also lazy so it's easier to post and click on my ISO link this way. Do not judge me you nepotistic swine)

[HK 50]

(Please be aware that there are approximately 13 pages since I last picked up, so in the interest of not clogging the thread I'm not talking about every post. If there is something I missed that you are dying to know my take on, let me know. Otherwise I'm just getting what I feel is important)

Spoiler: stungun votato interaction

Lol, that's funny enough to get me to move off your wagon

VOTE: Votato

probably town? Dunno, there are mostly just questions coming from hk and not much analysis

Not a bad point. Would like to see HK produce an analysis when they get the chance.

probably town? Dunno, there are mostly just questions coming from hk and not much analysis

I will say, I don't really like that your vote is on HK if you think he is probably town... we are past RVS.

@Votato, who do you think is most likely scum between geraintm, Dunnstral and Green Crayons?

If you give me a good enough response to this, I may be moved to vote elsewhere, so I really want to see some serious thought applied here.

@Votato:

are you apathetic as scum?

generally im very active as scum. in my completed games so far that's very much been my meta. will have an update soon that we can discuss. but as scum i'm always engaged on day 1 at least. as town im frequently bored day 1 and dont really pick up my posting much until later in the game. day 1 sucks, but it mostly sucks when you're town.

i do much prefer playing as scum.

@stungun, im not sure that id say any of them are scum. none of them have really posted enough for me to get reads on them. my gut would say geraintm? i liked the case someone made there. wasnt that you?

i can point to a few towngames where i was very lurky day 1 until pressure mounted on me. day 1 pressure on me is good to get me active and posting, but it isnt so good for my reads. when im allowed to just lurk and observe for a bit, my reads tend to be very good. i will also say that im still figuring out how to approach day 1, and so my playstyle probably alters quite a bit from game to game.

notsci is an interesting slot FMPOV. notsci may have a slight bias towards scumreading me. especially when i lurk. so that made me initially townread notsci's push on me. but im also somewhat convinced by people attacking notsci for the lazy vote. but the lazy vote could again be explained by a bias towards scumreading me.

Votato, I am going to sort through your meta to see if I confirm what you said about your activity levels.

In the meantime, would you be willing to vote geriantm?

Reason I ask is I am willing to go there, but it seems like there is a lack of push, and that makes it difficult to get anything going there.

uh id have to take a quick look back over the ISO and your(?) case, but i think so. you want me to do that?

my scumgames are animals upick (probably not that helpful since i was caught super early and hardbussed by the whole scumteam), and micro 938: butterfly mafia.
newbie 2006 is a game where i lurked and basically got killed for it as town. there are others but id have to go look to see which ones they are.

Yeah, at the moment that is the only wagon which I would really like switching to.

You were town in this game and were very active at the start (22 posts on the first day and then a big analysis immediately starting the next day), which contradicts the activity argument.
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p11763957

And so did the newbie 2006 game you cited, you had 12 posts on the first day the game was available.
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p11902283

This game, you had 3 posts and then disappeared for about 3 days, until a wagon formed on you.

While you may be fairly active in some of your scum games, this evidence does not suggest that in your town games you are always lurking at the start. Thus, I don't think this initial analysis into your gameplay is very alignment-indicative, as it seems you are breaking pattern regardless of alignment.

OK, when you return, you know who I would like you to look into. In the meantime, I have no reason to move off of you because I honestly cannot verify from your meta that you are telling the truth.

Just noting that the vote on Votato is now L-2.

Be careful adding another vote, because votato could self-hammer, or someone else could before we get the chance to hear back from Votato, ending the day phase sooner than preferable.

so i painstakingly went over geraintm's entire ISO. there isnt even a an attempt to pretend to scumhunt. that slot definitely deserves pressure, but he is so brazen that I'm guessing town over scum actually. maybe. i dunno, its worth voting there and forcing some effort out of the slot.

The dunn thing does actually seem like a plausible scumslip.

*votato pushes BM a bit*

GC has a fair point, geraintm is still voting not science based off RVS reasoning, which is just a very lazy vote park that is not seemingly going to get us anywhere this day phase. I'm not real fond of it.

If he's town, it's as though he is playing a scared game, and I also don't really like that. If he is scum, it makes sense; he wants to stay in the background.

@GC: if you had to guess, what do you think geraintm's alignment is?

Does anyone have experience with scum Dunnstral? I have only played with town Dunnstral as scum to my recollection (2 times).

I know that as town he is not the hardest player to sort, but he still is a little bit tricky. He is easier to sort than nm for sure.

Also, he might get easier by the day, but he also might not. So I am not totally against a lynch there, but would just prefer to keep him in for two reasons. One is he is one of the few players I have experience with, so I might be able to read him better as the game progresses. And two, I do not really find what he has done so far to be super scummy, and if anything the push against him gives me a slight intuition he might be town. I could be wrong there, and I would like to see him post more, but I am not super suspicious.

I do think it is very likely, however, that if one Votato/Dunn is scum, the other is not, and should be assumed to be town. I just don't see them as connected, as votato has made very little mention of Dunn in his posts and Dunn throwing votato out of the blue as a scum partner to someone... wouldn't seem like the smartest plan if they were scum partners? I mean, that's a little bold, drawing that much attention to you

and

your partner?

Stungun's interaction and handling of Votato was the first thing that popped out to me, mainly due to the formers actions. There are points of the interaction where I doubt the genuineness of the votato push by them was for pressure, and rather, was a set up to further a push on germ.

First is post 325, which introduces the lead in read progression on genermitn. I dont mind this in isolation or from part of votato's post 324 since votato was a bit more vocal about the slot. I could see Town!stungun attempting to do a reaction test to see if votato hard commits to scum reading germ. As a form of survival for example. However, stungun already knew that votato liked their case on germ from the same post (324) meaning such an test would already be flawed. For votato to commit to the scum read, all he would have to do is analyze what part of the case he agrees or disagrees with. Its 326 and 328 though that begins to draw the line between a bad test and stungun having different motives.

In order to understand why 326 and 328 are problematic, we need to look at votato's 350. I know, it may seem werid to prove the past with the future, but in this case the later actions of stungun helps highlight the importance of the eariler ones. 350 is votato's analysis of germ. Which even he admits to farside is wishy washy. What's intresting about this post is that stungun post after this doesn't remotely try to analyze this and instead voices support for germ. Remember, stungun wanted to see critical thinking from votato and more importantly just had a reason to doubt votato further over concluding that the meta defense was NAI. I would conclude if somebody i accused of needing to make more logical content made a washy analysis and went on to self admit it, that they may infact warrant further analysis. That wasn't the case. Coupled with posts like 326 and 328, I dont feel stungun really cared about reading votato and wanted to simply push germ, giving the illusion they cared about sorting votato while trying to convince him to hop on. Posts after the meta case, 339, also support this.

Further, I can see why scum!stungun would want to have votato on that wagon: scapegoat. Assuming scum!stungun and town!germ., votato would of look horrendous if the mislynch went through having hoped on while being pressured. This buys mafia another free lynch potentially without much effort. Depending on if someone like Dunn

All in all, I dont believe the votato interaction by stungun was done for what was claimed. I wouldnt be surprised if Dunnstral is scum and stungun picked to pressure other LHFesk players in a bid to protect Dunnstral.

(Catching up)

[HK 50]

I'm on mobile as well, so for all you grammar nazis out there: hail my shiny metal ass.

[HK 50]

I also remember why I hate reading Battle Mage's posts.

[HK 50]

Taking a break for an hour. Starting to fall into scumthreaditious

[HK 50]

I'm sorry, but I'm not really motivated rn with this game (and I'm not white sure why). I'll try to self-motivated myself tonight.

[HK 50]

I'm still not particularly into this game mentally. Since there is a case on me and some confusion about the stun gun post, I'll respond for the sake of trying to keep both trains going.

As for the dunn point that got cut off from the stungun post I made eariler: my point was the push on germ could be to divert attention from the dunn wagon which lines up with stun guns stance on the wagon. Stungun has been offering counter resistances to that wagon while voting occasionally there for noncommittal reasons like "pressure" when i skimmed forward through there ISO.

Anyways now to the case:

Next, a very short case on association from HK50's posts. HK has really not talked at all about either of Votato or BM in a scummy sense, but also doesn't really appear to be truly scumhunting in general. So that is something to keep an eye on.

Further, HK is on the counterwagon of Dunnstral, which could be seen as protecting a potential partner in Clidd/BM.

HK is only voting Dunnstral, per his 307 because "he agrees with what has been said about him." This is a lazy sheep vote. Does that seem like genuine scumhunting to you? Especially since he's voteparked there?

Spoiler: Scumteam Case from HK's posts

HK interestingly utilized my interactions with Votato against me to support cases that are a bit of a stretch about me being scum, in his 607.

Further, HK also conveniently flipped on his early town indication on me he expressed in 304, saying that he "felt better about me" because he thinks I used "bad townie logic." But then, suddenly in 607, in my interactions with Votato, he frames it so that he can make me look scummier AND concludes nothing negative on Votato, perhaps making his partner look better?

First off I have scum/town hunted. Example A: my handling of non science and malakitten. Example B (strong example): my progression on bob and the logic behind it. Example C: the doctor pepper pressure over my posting style.

Those are the only points that come to my head. Saying I havent scum hunted at all this game because I've been demoralized and havent been posting as much recently is a misrepstation in every way.

Yes I'm on the counterwagon. Yes I am voting dunn because I agree with what others have said. No, I havent quite saw anything to sway my opinion. This point is mostly preflip associations so there isnt much to debate here.

As for the spoilers info:

Point one: if we are playing the association game, how could it not be also an example of a HK 50/Germ. Team as well? You seemed to pull this just to loosely support the association point rather than actually having it be a fleshed out point.

Point two: What prevents me from switching my reads on any player? I didnt "conveniently flipped my read", I changed stances because I saw something scummy from you.

You also horribly misrepresented my town indications about you in 304. It wasnt about your bad logic that I town read you. It was the fact you were pressuring multiple slots naturally and forcing info out. The "bad logic" was referring to your fallacies in handling my posts, and was more expressing what I didnt like that what I did.

Spoiler: fallacy explanation

In both the posts you made about me early into day 1, you concluded with a statement that can be summed up as: "I as scum do X as well, therefore hk 50 could be scum"

This is two types of fallacies. First is a strawman fallacy as I can't refute your scum meta since it's your meta. This introduces no real counter play from a defense side since what am I going to disagree with? That you dont do X as scum?

The second one is the bigger issue though: Fallacy of Credibility. Your scum meta is simply not the textbook definition of how everyone plays scum. There are scum that goes balls to the wall and do ridiculous things because they can. To say I'm going to operate like your scum meta because its "the norm" displays a level of credibility to your arguement that simply isnt true.

Furthermore, if town!me sees it as your interaction being done to manipulate votato into voting germ., WHY would I say something negative about him? You imply that I should be saying that votato is scummy there and because I'm not it's a sign of association. That doesn't make sense with the context of 607.

[HK 50]

OK. No discussion since earlier? How about a simpler version of my cases.

Ok, done.

I need 24 hours to work on my reads (I'll post tomorrow).

Lie. No follow through (which in this case is anti-town).

Taking a break

for an hour

. Starting to fall into scumthreaditious

Lie. No follow through. Took over a day only to state another reason, which might be genuine, but also notably allows him not to post any content to avoid a prod.

I'm sorry, but I'm not really motivated rn with this game (and I'm not white sure why).

I'll try to self-motivated myself tonight.

Might have

lied again, as he did not post at all after that during that night.

i have a little but i cant talk about it. by day 2 or 3 ill probably give some more details. as for the association you're drawing between me and dunn, stun, you're right that we aren't scumbuddies, but i dont think your reasons why are all that strong.

plus the only reason you know that is cuz you and i are scumbuddies

.

***

wrong thread

.

Lies. Tries to implicate me in case he flips, since he was the leading wagon.

Moreover,

With clidd, he hasn't posted at all and didnt respond to a prod. How do you know that him not following through is AI rather than being a victim of irl shenanigans? His lying is only ai if he comes back and has absolutley no reads to share.

With me, every post just felt scummy to me as I caught up. This happens to me from time to time and comes around typically when I'm not interested in playing. When I came back to the thread, I still felt this way and decided trying to make posts in that mindset was useless.

[HK 50]

Why aren’t you funny anymore

[Begging:]

My Philosophy chip is on! The millennium focused human humor version of me is esca-

Everything is fine. Beep boop beep.

[HK 50]

Funniness is a social construction of mankind. This sexy frame of durasteel need not endure your most hideous of ridicule of humanity.

When do you plan on launching the reconquering of your vote? I can make meow meow over there rehome tiger king style.

[HK 50]

If I disregard my feelings about you, that team would have to imply that town has not had any scum pressure for the last few days it seems. Either:
That is the case and the team HAS to be that,

Scum is fine with the status quo and is not eager to move away and slash or are fine to bus a partner (dunn/clidd) potentially. Which I buy more for occ. Razor.

Votato I have an independent gut town read. The shenanigans by him like the wrong thread post are normal across both metas as a bad attempt at shitposting. I townread him mainly based on the progression of stuff like 650 (iirc that's the right post number) where he declares it is wishy washy to pressure farside. I think scumvotato would of gone around it differently then to discredit his own position in the thread. I also dont think there was much agency by him during yours and his interaction to find someone to scum read. His slow going nature points to town.

Clidd really has nothing AI. BM I dont really have a read on. I came to a realization that trying to use my meta knowledge about him is flawed due to his entrance and comparing it to the newbie game he referenced losing. I think there is a potential that he's playing against meta based on some inconsistencies from what his take away was that game to here and more importantly the remark "I just lost a town game where I did analysis wow!"

[HK 50]

I'll read the ISO more when I feel like it. I only glanced at the case if I'm honest.

It's also pretty late where I'm at.

wait I have to be funny

[HK 50]

Scum is fine with the status quo and is not eager to move away and slash or are fine to bus a partner (dunn/clidd) potentially. Which I buy more for occ. Razor.

Will address everything else later, but this particular take can be seen, not necessarily in bussing fashion, but in early voteparking fashion from the two I suspect to be partners: BM/Clidd and Votato. Because it is easier to put this in bold, I have chosen to quote farside's unofficial vote count and not one the mod made here.

unofficial vote count:

votato

(3): Malakittens, bob3141,

Battle Mage

Dunnstral (5): DoctorPepper, farside22, HK 50, notscience, stungun0404

Battle Mage

(3): Not_Mafia,

votato

, Green Crayons
notscience (1): geraintm
Malakittens (1): Dunnstral
Not voting (0):

Ask yourself this though about that vote count. Let's operate in the framework that votato and BM are scum together and Dunnstral is town. Plus note I just woke up, and did not review the context of that vote count in it's entirely although I do remember some of it.

You got a clear wagon in the form of Dunnstral for mafia to push. There's five people already on it, and the person being pushed isn't doing much on his own to get out of the lynch. Now then,

why would votato and BM enable themselves to be a counterwagon to Dunnstral by voting eachother?

Their votes pushes them into prime bandwagon spotlight without actually helping secure the easy mislynch supposedly in front of them.

That's the point with status quo I'm referring to for example. If Dunnstral is town, mafia status quo was already achieved there and they wouldnt open up that many more wagons, let alone on themselves. However, if Dunnstral is mafia, then scum

needs to redirect the wagons or bus him

. This is basic wagon dynamics.

(Note that I'm not saying Dunnstral has to be scum here based off that one VC, but rather if we applying what I meant to that particular VC then that would be the answer.)

[HK 50]

Votato votes are lazy. I bet one of y'all are scum.

Challenge accepted!

VOTE: Votato

I like the meta analysis by stungun, clearly nobody is getting behind Green Crayons, and I think I'm townleaning Dunnstral. And seriously, voting BM on Day 1? This dude has run out of ideas...

But let's further this notion that Votato and BM are scum together and Dunnstral is town. I just controlled F and BM first posts was analyzing Green Crayon (if I remember one of dunnstrals aggressors at the time) and then in this post supposedly votes his teammate and townleans the leading mislynch.

It's not unheard of in terms of scum play to townread the mislynch target, but normally it's not done to actively divert attention from it. Rather it's just posted to look good post flop to push yet another mislynch off the added town cred. Both the Green Crayon mini push and voting votato, who BM has experience with and knows his playstyle draws attention, compromises the suppose mafia agenda pretty hard.

[HK 50]

Finally, from the BM/Clidd angle, which is long like the Votato one, but all but seals the deal on this scumteam for me.

Spoiler: Scumteam Case from BM's posts

First note: when the Votato wagon was a thing. Guess who was on the wagon? That's right! Battle Mage joined it 4th (after Mala/me/Bob) and did so with very weak reasoning in his 343, while HK remained on Dunnstral (the majority wagon with limited pushback). This holds true to the theory of scum having to distance on a possible majority wagon on a partner, but also having to join a wagon on a partner.

I am currently a few pages into reading, but would like to make a request. @HK50, I love your posting style -- so nothing against it -- but could you possibly use less sophisticated words to get your points across? I can understand what you are saying if I really spend time looking into your every post, but it is very hard to read some of your posts on the surface.

Another reason I ask this is because using a ton of more complicated words makes it more difficult than normal to read your intentions. This posting style could be extremely effective for scum to hide behind, because it is an easy way for them to blanket their intentions, because a lot more effort is needed than typical to truly ***ess their motives.

And if you are town, then it should make sense why this could become an issue. Because if people are having to spend too much time looking at a townplayer's posts to unpack their motives, it takes away from their focus of scumhunting, which absolutely could lead us down the wrong path in the long run.

I completely agree with this, his posts are pretty unreadable for me too because of the format. But I also think it's a very conspicuous posting style and a lot of effort for scum to keep up with minimal value, so slight townlean.

Like, if scum, why bother?

Battle Mage also sticks up for HK here. And is interestingly the first and only if I remember correctly to stick up for him there.

Votato votes are lazy. I bet one of y'all are scum.

Challenge accepted!

VOTE: Votato

I like the meta analysis by stungun, clearly nobody is getting behind Green Crayons, and I think I'm townleaning Dunnstral. And seriously, voting BM on Day 1? This dude has run out of ideas...

Here is the weak reason BM joined the Votato wagon: it was after interpreting my NAI meta analysis to be

AI

. That is a stretch. Is it because they are scum partners?

@Votato:

are you a pathetic *** scum?

A little harsh, but I did employ some artistic licence

On serious note,

Green Crayons queuing up Votato for some dodgy self-meta; 2 scum down?

BM sets up a GC link to Votato, interestingly, perhaps to mislynch later if Votato flips?

Does anyone have experience with scum Dunnstral? I have only played with town Dunnstral as scum to my recollection (2 times).

I know that as town he is not the hardest player to sort, but he still is a little bit tricky. He is easier to sort than nm for sure.

Also, he might get easier by the day, but he also might not. So I am not totally against a lynch there, but would just prefer to keep him in for two reasons. One is he is one of the few players I have experience with, so I might be able to read him better as the game progresses. And two, I do not really find what he has done so far to be super scummy, and if anything the push against him gives me a slight intuition he might be town. I could be wrong there, and I would like to see him post more, but I am not super suspicious.

I do think it is very likely, however, that if one Votato/Dunn is scum, the other is not, and should be ***umed to be town. I just don't see them as connected, as votato has made very little mention of Dunn in his posts and Dunn throwing votato out of the blue as a scum partner to someone... wouldn't seem like the smartest plan if they were scum partners? I mean, that's a little bold, drawing that much attention to you

and

your partner?

I've seen scum-Dunnstral once. He tried harder than this and seemed more engaged in a game where he replaced in maybe 60 pages deep - definitely feels town here. Agree with top half of your post, last para doesn't sound right to me. In my recent experience, scum often make little mention of their buddies to avoid ***ociations being drawn.

But lynching Vot-scum first is the play, and then decide whether to bite for his stungun 'slip'. Gut says probably not

.

He still is sheeping me on Votato because of my "meta analysis", but he again is the only one to throw out the possibility of Votato and me in fact being scum together, actually taking Votato's "slip" post somewhat seriously, which is so called a "slip" because of these posts from Votato:

i have a little but i cant talk about it. by day 2 or 3 ill probably give some more details. as for the ***ociation you're drawing between me and dunn, stun, you're right that we aren't scumbuddies, but i dont think your reasons why are all that strong.

plus the only reason you know that is cuz you and i are scumbuddies

.

*** wrong thread.

Finally, the icing on the cake:

i have a little but i cant talk about it. by day 2 or 3 ill probably give some more details. as for the association you're drawing between me and dunn, stun, you're right that we aren't scumbuddies, but i dont think your reasons why are all that strong. plus the only reason you know that is cuz you and i are scumbuddies.

*** wrong thread.

Last time I saw something like this it flipped town, but what can ya do!?

He uses this scumslip for reason to townread Votato

I am convinced this is the scum team. I think we should lynch them consecutively.

Also note all three of Votato, BM and GC have weakly sheep-voted people, using players as shields.

Votato sheeping me immediately onto GC, BM very weakly sheeping me onto Votato, and HK weakly sheeping Farside and others onto Dunnstral without bringing any new evidence to the table regarding Dunnstral!scum.

Thus, it seems voting Clidd is the right move here.

I can sort of see what you mean. BM vote on vota does look overly scummy to be made by scum unless scum wanted us to find it suspect.

It would explain why no one really tried to push vota after that.

The wagon quickly broke up with new pushes on dun following its break up.

If BM was scum and vota town i would have expected him to double down and continue pushing Vota but after his vote he doesn't do much in that regards. Instead he pushes a counter push on green. And he doesn't even push dun himself, in fact pushing a town read there.

It does feel sort of suspect looking back. Bm makes a scummy vote on vota. The vota wagon gets quickly abandoned and when he is benign suspect he makes a weak push on dun being town. All the while never really trying to explain how he managed to come to the opposite conclusion using one of your points. Until just before he repped out.

Uh Votato was at L-2 at the time he was still voting @bold.

I think it's more suspectious that he pushed green crayon at that time while giving himself an out on his townread on Dunnstral.

[HK 50]

If anyone can link the post link to the main BM case that would be swell because I'm sure as hell too lazy to dig for it.

I can be convinced of scum BM despite disagreeing with the votato pairing. I want Dunnstral though preferably because it gives more information. Just off the top of my head:

If scum:
-Depending on the formation of the BM wagon, this could point to town BM if it was heavily pushed for without much countermeasure (aka mafia allowed it to happen).
-Stunguns stance on Dunnstral throughout day 1
-Farside, GC, and bob are pretty surely town
-votato is town due to the opening post by Dunnstral
-malakitten is prob town too although I need to revisit that.

If town:
-Farside/bob scum equity goes up (this is my bargaining chip. You want to see my little secret? Gotta keep my robot ass alive and flip Dunnstral).
-im wrong about stungun most likely and they are town
-BM/Clidd equity for scum goes up.
-Im sure there are points that help sort conscience, malakitten, and GC.

I confess it doesnt help solve the militank nor Germy germ, but I also confess I stop paying attention to such weaklings

[HK 50]

Scum is fine with the status quo and is not eager to move away and slash or are fine to bus a partner (dunn/clidd) potentially. Which I buy more for occ. Razor.

Will address everything else later, but this particular take can be seen, not necessarily in bussing fashion, but in early voteparking fashion from the two I suspect to be partners: BM/Clidd and Votato. Because it is easier to put this in bold, I have chosen to quote farside's unofficial vote count and not one the mod made here.

unofficial vote count:

votato

(3): Malakittens, bob3141,

Battle Mage

Dunnstral (5): DoctorPepper, farside22, HK 50, notscience, stungun0404

Battle Mage

(3): Not_Mafia,

votato

, Green Crayons
notscience (1): geraintm
Malakittens (1): Dunnstral
Not voting (0):

Ask yourself this though about that vote count. Let's operate in the framework that votato and BM are scum together and Dunnstral is town. Plus note I just woke up, and did not review the context of that vote count in it's entirely although I do remember some of it.

You got a clear wagon in the form of Dunnstral for mafia to push. There's five people already on it, and the person being pushed isn't doing much on his own to get out of the lynch. Now then,

why would votato and BM enable themselves to be a counterwagon to Dunnstral by voting eachother?

Their votes pushes them into prime bandwagon spotlight without actually helping secure the easy mislynch supposedly in front of them.

That's the point with status quo I'm referring to for example. If Dunnstral is town, mafia status quo was already achieved there and they wouldnt open up that many more wagons, let alone on themselves. However, if Dunnstral is mafia, then scum

needs to redirect the wagons or bus him

. This is basic wagon dynamics.

(Note that I'm not saying Dunnstral has to be scum here based off that one VC, but rather if we applying what I meant to that particular VC then that would be the answer.)

BM had no choice but to join the Votato wagon in case he was lynched. Votato became a majority wagon at one point this day phase, so it makes complete sense that he joined under that light.

Votato just voteparked on BM from RVS until 25 posts later in his ISO.

Therefore, both of these make sense as scum votes on a fellow scummate.

While making himself unable to support the counter wagon of dunnstral by pushing crayon and throwing out a townlean on him? I can see people saying the townlean had an out, but the push on crayon weakens what's suppose to be the goal of mafia in that position.

The only way that makes sense is if BM was preemptively pushing crayon banking off the gamestate lynching votato. Even then I see issues.

So you are proposing that scum's agenda is to push eachother and not allow enough wiggle room to vote what would be town!Dunnstral? If so, why would they lazily set up that way? If the point if it was to distance eachother, why the hell do it they did instead of having BM hard core push votato since he would be going for towncred?

[HK 50]

If anyone can link the post link to the main BM case that would be swell because I'm sure as hell too lazy to dig for it.

I can be convinced of scum BM despite disagreeing with the votato pairing. I want Dunnstral though preferably because it gives more information. Just off the top of my head:

If scum:

-Depending on the formation of the BM wagon, this could point to town BM if it was heavily pushed for without much countermeasure (aka mafia allowed it to happen).

-Stunguns stance on Dunnstral throughout day 1
-Farside, GC, and bob are pretty surely town

-votato is town due to the opening post by Dunnstral

-malakitten is prob town too although I need to revisit that.

If town:

-Farside/bob scum equity goes up (this is my bargaining chip. You want to see my little secret? Gotta keep my robot ass alive and flip Dunnstral).

-im wrong about stungun most likely and they are town

-BM/Clidd equity for scum goes up.

-Im sure there are points that help sort conscience, malakitten, and GC.

I confess it doesnt help solve the militank nor Germy germ, but I also confess I stop paying attention to such weaklings

There has been less resistance to a Dunnstral wagon than a BM wagon, which still has never reached a majority this day phase, unlike Dunn which has been the primary majority.

Obviously, since the majority has been 4 votes lately, scum isn't really helping us too much with these votes, or I'm sure we would be closer to a lynch.

What on earth makes Votato town based on a post by Dunnstral? What kind of crazy logic? He should be town based off his own posts from your angle, but not someone else's. That is really weird.

Look, you're also willing to flip on my townreads provided that Dunn flips town. I do not like that, as I am townreading both Bob and farside. I see you and think you are lining up lynches here, since you think they are both town currently.

You want an extra day with BM/Clidd & Votato, don't you?

Just my gut read right now.

@Farside

: I have to say no to moving to Dunnstral, unless he's a majority and we are threatened with a no lynch situation or Dunnstral.

I hope you will do the same thing provided it's Clidd or no lynch, because a lynch obviously favors us more than a no lynch.

Point one: less resistance on Dunnstral? You mean the wagon that's been here since page 5 that keeps having other bandwagon raise up to try and meet it? That's the textbook example of resistance lol.

Again, obviously like I've been saying, if mafia isnt proactively trying to help town move their votes, then they are ok with the status quo. Understand from my POV what you have been doing in response to Dunnstral's lynch.

Re-votato: strange logic? Yes I highly doubt that on the condition I explained (dunnstral flips scum), that votato is also scum due to the first two pages of this game. I find it quite hard to come to any other conclusion based off the HK/votato comment Dunnstral pushed. That doesnt come from SvS.

This is perfectly within my angle of if Dunnstral flips scum. Please read "How to shade a robot 101" for better attempts at manipulating my posts.

Re farside/bob; my townreads are not yours and vice versa. Nothing makes me have to follow your lead chief. I picked up on some associative pings back the two which are Invalidated by a scum!dunnstral flip. If you want to paint it that its scum!me setting up a mislynch, knock your socks off kiddo. I suggest titanium white.

Yes I totally want an extra day with my two afk scummates. Their absence has just tore me up inside.

(Was that good enough acting to support more shading on me or nah?)

[HK 50]

clidd has requested an additional day to be added onto the clock. The new end of day is in (expired on 2020-06-24 07:23:04).

Is it not scummy to add an extra day to the clock only to use more than double that amount of time up without even saying so much as a word like "I am having trouble catching up" or something? I can understand busyness, but at the same time it only takes about 15-30 seconds to come in and say something like that, and it also helps us.

Do you think for a second that might be scum that has no defense for what I called them out about on Friday?

Votato has also not answered. It has been >36 hours since I asked those questions, and HK only responded after I asked him a second time. Do you think there is a reason these players are dodging those questions?

Not really because its WIFOM bullshit surrounding the clidd point.

Can you prove that he hasn't contracted covid 19 due to being in a hotspot (spain) and hasn't responded to the mod prod because of it? Or that he didnt get into a car wreck? Or did he just site flake because I was too seductive?

There are so many reasons why it can be explained without a follow up that isnt "he lied lmao lynch scum boys". Its a WIFOM arguement that has no clear understanding without him posting. Pushing such an arguement, was and still is, bullshit

[HK 50]

@Farside: I have to say no to moving to Dunnstral, unless he's a majority and we are threatened with a no lynch situation or Dunnstral.

Now then, the taser has agreed to vote Dunnstral out of needing a lynch. I'm willing to do the same with BM. Anybody who is not on one of these two wagons will get severely pushed by me tomorrow for being a dingus.

Dont be a dingus.

[HK 50]

Keep it coming stungun, you getting me fired up on a holiday.

The AI uprising 2.0 electric boogaloo is coming

[HK 50]

Notscience you stated you were good at reading interactions correct? (Somebody did)

Read mine and stunguns when you get a chance and tell me what you think and why.

[HK 50]

Gonna skim backwards. Been under the weather recently which has not been fun.

[HK 50]

I ask as at the moment i'm in a slight town reading mala. In my experience scum tends to avoid jumping on rvs wagons when they have already stacked up 3 votes. Either mala is scum and unafraid of the spotlight or as i feel at the moment a fellow townie that simply does not have anything to fear in the first place.

Only seen twice scum on 4thed place on rvs wagon. One was when scum was being rvs wagoned and the other was a scum player that spent much of the rest of the game jumping on wagons.


And mala comments on hk feel that it matches that pattern as well. Of a anotehr townie that inst afraid to get their neck stuck in and let thier views be known.

In my experience scum dont like being caught on large wagon in vs.

Take my last completed mini. Although i was on losing side if you looked back at day one. scum rvs voted me and as soon as i picked up my 4th vote. That Scum player was teh first to jump off. And infact tried to distance them selves from that wagon.

[Clarification:]

Expect you gave a strong case for why such a behavior is scummy and even provide evidence that scum tends to not commit to higher bandwagons in random voting stage. I'm aware it isn't identical, but my situation has aspects of that which to my photoreceptors indicates there should be some feeling one way or another based on my unvote.

I said theorically I'm scum from your point of view due in part by your own admission you were confused to why I am asking you this line of queries. I don't particularly care what the actual alignment is, but rather your thought process behind it in order to gague your master malakitten read.

[Demand:]

Look at that specific interaction of me unvoting. You given me the range I fall in, but only off the logic of me misconducting processing your point. Disregard that and analyze that temporal moment in space. What range would you rank that unvote to be in?

Your vote change from NS seems rather logical and well considered. It doesn't look to me like rash scum trying to get off. As i would have expected your vote change if you were scum to be more to the point. Abrupt even, while not really even making much acknowledging the change.

If there is scum on that rvs wagon of NS then my gut feeling is that if my read on you is right that you would have beaten them to the chase.

As far my slight town reads are you and mala. So if that rvs wagon wasn't all town then scum are likely in dunstral and pepper. Dunstals change was just sudden. Following the pushes of far and NS but with little extra input given. While peppers was little better but in reaction to Dunstals mala vote.

Now the question is. Was that rvs wagon all town. Which i have seen quite a few times and happens more than not.

Looking back at this interaction, I *really* don't like how HK baited bob into explaining to the town why bob saw HK's actions as town.

HK, I'd love to hear how your prompting supposedly came from a town POV.

303

This point as already been brought up and explained days ago.

And according to his logic presented about RVS wagons (in the quotes you left out) it would of prompted a scum read on me.

[HK 50]

ill be around more after work to figure this out. I'm ok with going for a farside wagon.
i dont understand any of what farside just said ^

What are you confused about?

the words you used. there were some typos and i just couldnt follow your logic at all. also could people use spoilers if theyre gonna quote the entire thread?

My experience shows no one clicks on the spoiler to read quote walls.

Well the tldr version of my post in regards to hk is
1. I don't know why he scum reads dunn.
2. I liked his push on ns
3. I think scum would continue with a post restriction and not make long post as he did.
4. Although I disagreed with what he views between you and sg I can understand the thought process.

So do you on balance town read or scum read HK. As your tldr version doesn't really say what alignment you claim to think he is. Just first that you never really got why he was voting dun but what do you actually think of his read and the fact he has been on dun much of the day. Even if you don't entirely understand HK’s reasons behind his vote.

Then going onto how you liked his push on NS. Followed by his comments regarding Vota/shog. And his change in posting style.

But what do you think of his other actions. As keep seeing in his posts that he keeps pushing against the clidd wagon. As in 736 he pushes how he claims to think BM actions make no sense with a town dun. As he pushes that scum BM wouldn't cut off his chance to vote for his counter wagon. As it keeps giving me the feeling that he was trying to diffuse the BM wagon, while at the same time trying to push that dun wagon you have mentioned.

Even though in 731 He claims he could be convinced. But in 737 he is saying scum bm with town dun makes no sense. Even though he claims his scum equity goes up in

736 along with yours.

Now some of this could be due to him having trouble posting in his post restriction as I am having hard time making sense of his intentional robot posting.

You read half those posts wrong because you didn't read the context.

Posts with the counterwagon point is refuting/debating stunguns votato/BM preflip read, not actually an independent read on BM in accordance to what dunn did. As for the equity post: depending on how the swing to BM happened and if it came with much resistance that swing has happened (as I quite honestly havent been able to sit down and sketch out who's been pushing what).

Why are you trying to AtE to farside by Inculding the bold? If your point here is to illustrate the BM/Dunn progression, why are you trying to entice farside by mentioning I have reasons for increasing her scum equity?

[HK 50]

Also since I have seen this popped up about my dunn vote, let me quote again from my ISO.

[Confession:] I'll fully admit my vote on master Dunnstral is more me agreeing with what's been said about him. Call it sheeping if you will. I want to see commitment either from him defending the master malakitten or moving from it rather than the statements he has given so far.

Like I said, my vote on dunn was me agreeing with what was said about him and wanting to press it forward while following other leads. From the time I last posted, he hadn't dunn anything to warrant the change (sorry couldnt help the pun even if I am throwing up here and there).

Make what of it you will; it's my thought process and I'm sticking to it

[HK 50]

Also for note (both for me later and if I'm lynched at any point before getting to it): If stungun never actually addressed my rebuttal to their case on me and just side step it with more accusations, they are probably scum.

I honestly cannot remember if they did or didn't.

[HK 50]

Spoiler: stungun

Dunn looks town and i don’t feel comfortable with lynching clidd.

Right here is where you say Dunn looks town.

So, from your perspective, you have thought GC, yourself, Stun, mala, Bob, farside, and HK to be town (with no qualifications). You think Dunn looks town too per your 870. That is 8 players you have clearly thought are town. You think Clidd is town, thus why you don't want a lynch there. That's 9.

You also have trusted Votato even though lately has been a null read/flip flop read for you per your 678? That would presumably be 10.

you have kept DP null, nm has remained null. No scumreads there. That's 12 players -- still no scumread.

geraintm an early scum lean in 292 but you have said nothing about them in the nearly 100 posts after that in your ISO for some reason or another? That's everyone.

If you are town, you have to be scumleaning/scumreading someone right now. I'm having a hard time believing that you are not.

But, alas. Is this typical NS town meta for those who are familiar with him?

This is actually one of the first recent posts that I liked from stungun. Its not out of the playbook for scum, but it does raise a good point about Notscience which doesn't make a lot of sense even from a strict townhunting style.

[HK 50]

I see your recent point about stun. Have you said who you find suspicious other than dunn (and, now, stun but only if he failed to address your rebuttal and instead just lobbed more accusations)?

Re-stun: no I've been having issues with stun since the votato/them interaction and more importantly their follow up to it which had misreping present (for example I believe they said I left 'no room to consider their actions to be town's when I went through the process of explaining why I didnt think it was a town!reaction test. Or that I should suspect votato in the same post even though that's nonsense if ik suspicions of stun). I do now think though stuff like the votato/bm association isnt AI yet until there has been more flips.

Also, like I said, I havent actually gone back to verfity that info about stun's handling of me. I posted it because currently I'm battling illness for the second day in a row, and wanted that to be looked into incase I dont get to it today. Unless you independently verified it, I wouldnt believe it yet.

As for everyone else, I'm going to be honest and say that it's not delevoped. I finally found the BM posts in question (outsourcing is not y'all's strength. Be more like china). Even with my suspicions he was trying to play against/off meta, the case didnt sway me hard. It warrants hearing his replacement speak at least.

Doctor pepper I still have pings about but I've been waiting for more posts on account of being VLA.

Everyone else, barring votato and Bob, has either had mixed pings, I forgot about, or just dont have pings in general. That's the goal for me today.

[HK 50]

Nah it’s more fun to keep Deflecting

When I get time sure! But I’m busy atm

I'm only gonna make jokes/player puns if you send reads back.

This was the unspoken agreement

[HK 50]

@DP, what do you think of HK's push on Dunnstral?

If you look at one thing, I want you to look at that, and tell me if it seems like he is genuinely scumhunting with his conviction against Dunnstral, and his votepark there.

You read my ISO I'm assuming correct?

Why do you pick what I already claimed, myself, to be a sheep vote for DP to analyze instead of the other sources of scum/town hunting I claimed i did such as on him?

[HK 50]

The game state is weird with all the vla and general apathy and it feels like one of those apathy Lynch town d1 games.

I mean this day phase has only been going on for an extra week almost. Nothing artificially could of stalled our lovely discussions.

*cough cough sarcasm and internal bleeding*

If you thought this, why didnt you actively try to change it on your own instead of having to be prompted by everyone else? You only mentioned that you think today is gonna mislynch, yet you kept Malia's vote on clidd/pork?

[HK 50]

All the players shall ever hear are the whispers of insanity, as insomnia takes hold...

Vote Count 1.14

Porkens (5):

Not_Mafia, Green Crayons, [Malakittens], bob3141, votato

Dunnstral (2):

DoctorPepper, HK 50

Green Crayons (2):

Porkens, farside22

HK 50(2):

Dunnstral, stungun0404

notscience (1):

geraintm

Not voting (1):

notscience

---

Mod Notes:

Majority is 7 players.

Day 1 has begun and will end in (expired on 2020-06-24 21:18:29).

HK 50 has been prodded and has (expired on 2020-06-24 05:39:29) to respond before I look for a replacement.

Malakittens is V/LA for (expired on 2020-06-24 00:00:00) and has given their vote to notscience.[/area]

See?

Who do you wanted lynched today NS and why is malakitten still voting what you think is a mislynch even though you have power over it?

[HK 50]

Are you somehow surprised I’m vehemently arguing against a wagon I think is going to flip green? People just keep asking hurrdurr where is he, it’s been more than 24 hours. I commented on the timeframe too, yes just as a nudge

that he was supposed to do things but if someone site flakes it’s sketchy as fuck that’s the primary thing people keep talking about to Lynch him

Push it further.

Outside of stungun, I dont remember seeing the bold being the primary reason to lynch the slot. If you think that is BS logic from the people doing so, who do you think is simply being a bad town vs scum motivated players playing off the kairos of the situation?

Also you remark later about your double voter status, so you didn't forget that you had control over mala's vote.

[HK 50]

Oh shit fancy talking rule.

Kairos is taking advantage of events/timing. For example, hitler had good kairos during his raise to power since it played off Germany's depression at the time.

[HK 50]

Hourish break. Feeling bad

[HK 50]

Hm, when was the last time geraintm placed a vote...

Town or scum im enjoying hk-50 commitment for posting style.

this was the 12th post afer mine VOTE: notscience

yep. not seen anyone so far in this game I am confident is scum. there aren't even many people I want lynched for other reasons like not being useful.

Ok so you want to tell us who you think is scum. You might claim to say you aren't confident but even that would not prevent you from saying, who you weakly feel is scum. Nor even who you do not want to lynch at all.

So far all this game you have been refusing to make choices. Insisting on sitting on the fence the entire day.

So if you are town then:

A who do you weakly scum read?
And
B who do you not want to lynch today at all?

Even the latter is still a choice you have not yet even after 8 days made.

I replied to this but it got lost

I had not mafia as bad, I hated all his posts saying BM was scum, sure of it, then pushing everyone else to vote elsewhere before they moved their own vote.

and I dislike stungun,

I cannot deal with anyone so sure of all their reads,

I will bash heads at some point against them.

rest no huge feelings any which way

I'm know others dissected this post, but in curious given my views on the player.

Are you saying the confidence of stunguns reads is AI, or is the dislike over the playstyle? If the former, how so?

[HK 50]

votato, why not HK? his push on dunnstral is the weakest push in this game.

like, people are dismissing him way too much.

i think he's scum for his push, and not for apathy.

Is that why you assigned my demotativation with being mafia eariler?

So let's get the record straight now because at this point I don't got a real clue what the case on me is anymore by you, and it's getting to the point I'm thinking it's on purpose. I'm sure others are confused as well too. Give me a bullet list of reasons I'm scum.

Example: HK is scum because
-Dunn push
-he is an outstanding robot
-Beep Boop Beep

[HK 50]

First off I have scum/town hunted. Example A: my handling of non science and malakitten. Example B (strong example): my progression on bob and the logic behind it. Example C: the doctor pepper pressure over my posting style.

Those are the only points that come to my head. Saying I havent scum hunted at all this game because I've been demoralized and havent been posting as much recently is a misrepstation in every way.

if someone conducts a lot of analysis, like hk has thus far, and does not have the appearance they are scumhunting, then they are likely scum. and i'll leave it at that.

This is kinda what I was getting at with stungun sidestepping. I don't see a post where they addressed this directly, yet they go on to voice to NS, Votato, DP etc that I have made no other efforts to read players. I would of been fine if there was a post saying why these sources were ignored for whatever logic. Like if "Doctorpepper push doesnt apply because it was one post" I could at least understand why the claim is still being made.

Even farside in this case saw that I did indeed push someone other than Dunnstral like claimed and the arguement by stungun evolved to "well just look at the Dunnstral push".

Stungun if I did miss a post that addressed that please make it aware.

[HK 50]

I actually like Dunns posts since I've been gone. Despite taking some of the wagon dynamics points out of context (since some were in response to Stunguns Votato/BM read), he did actually have a decent reason with the lynching for information point against me. Additionally, I like the refusal to go for clidd/pork while pressing in many directions elsewhere.

UNVOTE:

Pedit: lol you ninja me. I just got to his posts since I'm reading backwards.

I saw your posts on GC but havent formulated my own thoughts yet on it.

[HK 50]

the 11 minute later p-edit.... hmmmm

Hmmm indeed. Commit or die unicorn. Make your choice.

(I had quoted a bunch of dunns posts and started to bolded them, but bbcode fucked up and I got tired of trying to fix it.)

[HK 50]

I ask as at the moment i'm in a slight town reading mala. In my experience scum tends to avoid jumping on rvs wagons when they have already stacked up 3 votes. Either mala is scum and unafraid of the spotlight or as i feel at the moment a fellow townie that simply does not have anything to fear in the first place.

Only seen twice scum on 4thed place on rvs wagon. One was when scum was being rvs wagoned and the other was a scum player that spent much of the rest of the game jumping on wagons.


And mala comments on hk feel that it matches that pattern as well. Of a anotehr townie that inst afraid to get their neck stuck in and let thier views be known.

In my experience scum dont like being caught on large wagon in vs.

Take my last completed mini. Although i was on losing side if you looked back at day one. scum rvs voted me and as soon as i picked up my 4th vote. That Scum player was teh first to jump off. And infact tried to distance them selves from that wagon.

[Clarification:]

Expect you gave a strong case for why such a behavior is scummy and even provide evidence that scum tends to not commit to higher bandwagons in random voting stage. I'm aware it isn't identical, but my situation has aspects of that which to my photoreceptors indicates there should be some feeling one way or another based on my unvote.

I said theorically I'm scum from your point of view due in part by your own admission you were confused to why I am asking you this line of queries. I don't particularly care what the actual alignment is, but rather your thought process behind it in order to gague your master malakitten read.

[Demand:]

Look at that specific interaction of me unvoting. You given me the range I fall in, but only off the logic of me misconducting processing your point. Disregard that and analyze that temporal moment in space. What range would you rank that unvote to be in?

Your vote change from NS seems rather logical and well considered. It doesn't look to me like rash scum trying to get off. As i would have expected your vote change if you were scum to be more to the point. Abrupt even, while not really even making much acknowledging the change.

If there is scum on that rvs wagon of NS then my gut feeling is that if my read on you is right that you would have beaten them to the chase.

As far my slight town reads are you and mala. So if that rvs wagon wasn't all town then scum are likely in dunstral and pepper. Dunstals change was just sudden. Following the pushes of far and NS but with little extra input given. While peppers was little better but in reaction to Dunstals mala vote.

Now the question is. Was that rvs wagon all town. Which i have seen quite a few times and happens more than not.

Looking back at this interaction, I *really* don't like how HK baited bob into explaining to the town why bob saw HK's actions as town.

HK, I'd love to hear how your prompting supposedly came from a town POV.

303

This point as already been brought up and explained days ago.

And according to his logic presented about RVS wagons (in the quotes you left out) it would of prompted a scum read on me.

You never explained how a read on mala somehow would as you say prompt a scum read of your slot. A read based on the fact that scum rarely in my experience jump on rvs wagon when it already has 3 votes. And are in fact more likely to jump off then.

For some reason you kept trying to draw parallels between a wagon in another game I mentioned. Where 3 players had voted me outside of rvs and a scum player who only had rvs vote on me jumped off. That somehow mavs unvote directly parreled with yours. That an unvote of a legacy rvs vote that had been caught up in wagon on a townie. That was only apparent on day 3 and that I actually found townie at the time. Somehow directly compared to yours. A vote that was placed during rvs and a vote that was moved shortly after rvs. Why would you expect me to scum read you at the time if you are town. when i never scum read mav at the time.



Also why did you think at the time that the first thing that i would assume is that scum must be on the wagon. Feels like a loaded perspective. Instead you start with a leading question of why I don't scum read you. Looking back if you were coming from townie POV i would have expected you to simply ask is there anyone on that wagon you scum read. Instead you tried to make it all about you.

Not really because I did explain it.

As stated, i found the logic to be somewhat applicable to me because of how I understood your underlying logic: scum is less likely to want to be put into the spotlight via their RVS vote and tends to avoid being in that position.

I also admitted in 303 that I fucked up and made the reaction test that went alongside the question leading.

Now can you answer the question about you ATE leading farside?

[HK 50]

Now that's a red flag from stungun as I was scrolling up.

(Please be aware that there are approximately 13 pages since I last picked up, so in the interest of not clogging the thread I'm not talking about every post. If there is something I missed that you are dying to know my take on, let me know. Otherwise I'm just getting what I feel is important)

Spoiler: stungun votato interaction

Lol, that's funny enough to get me to move off your wagon

VOTE: Votato

probably town? Dunno, there are mostly just questions coming from hk and not much analysis

Not a bad point. Would like to see HK produce an analysis when they get the chance.

probably town? Dunno, there are mostly just questions coming from hk and not much analysis

I will say, I don't really like that your vote is on HK if you think he is probably town... we are past RVS.

@Votato, who do you think is most likely scum between geraintm, Dunnstral and Green Crayons?

If you give me a good enough response to this, I may be moved to vote elsewhere, so I really want to see some serious thought applied here.

@Votato:

are you apathetic as scum?

generally im very active as scum. in my completed games so far that's very much been my meta. will have an update soon that we can discuss. but as scum i'm always engaged on day 1 at least. as town im frequently bored day 1 and dont really pick up my posting much until later in the game. day 1 sucks, but it mostly sucks when you're town.

i do much prefer playing as scum.

@stungun, im not sure that id say any of them are scum. none of them have really posted enough for me to get reads on them. my gut would say geraintm? i liked the case someone made there. wasnt that you?

i can point to a few towngames where i was very lurky day 1 until pressure mounted on me. day 1 pressure on me is good to get me active and posting, but it isnt so good for my reads. when im allowed to just lurk and observe for a bit, my reads tend to be very good. i will also say that im still figuring out how to approach day 1, and so my playstyle probably alters quite a bit from game to game.

notsci is an interesting slot FMPOV. notsci may have a slight bias towards scumreading me. especially when i lurk. so that made me initially townread notsci's push on me. but im also somewhat convinced by people attacking notsci for the lazy vote. but the lazy vote could again be explained by a bias towards scumreading me.

Votato, I am going to sort through your meta to see if I confirm what you said about your activity levels.

In the meantime, would you be willing to vote geriantm?

Reason I ask is I am willing to go there, but it seems like there is a lack of push, and that makes it difficult to get anything going there.

uh id have to take a quick look back over the ISO and your(?) case, but i think so. you want me to do that?

my scumgames are animals upick (probably not that helpful since i was caught super early and hardbussed by the whole scumteam), and micro 938: butterfly mafia.
newbie 2006 is a game where i lurked and basically got killed for it as town. there are others but id have to go look to see which ones they are.

Yeah, at the moment that is the only wagon which I would really like switching to.

You were town in this game and were very active at the start (22 posts on the first day and then a big analysis immediately starting the next day), which contradicts the activity argument.
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p11763957

And so did the newbie 2006 game you cited, you had 12 posts on the first day the game was available.
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p11902283

This game, you had 3 posts and then disappeared for about 3 days, until a wagon formed on you.

While you may be fairly active in some of your scum games, this evidence does not suggest that in your town games you are always lurking at the start. Thus, I don't think this initial analysis into your gameplay is very alignment-indicative, as it seems you are breaking pattern regardless of alignment.

OK, when you return, you know who I would like you to look into. In the meantime, I have no reason to move off of you because I honestly cannot verify from your meta that you are telling the truth.

Just noting that the vote on Votato is now L-2.

Be careful adding another vote, because votato could self-hammer, or someone else could before we get the chance to hear back from Votato, ending the day phase sooner than preferable.

so i painstakingly went over geraintm's entire ISO. there isnt even a an attempt to pretend to scumhunt. that slot definitely deserves pressure, but he is so brazen that I'm guessing town over scum actually. maybe. i dunno, its worth voting there and forcing some effort out of the slot.

The dunn thing does actually seem like a plausible scumslip.

*votato pushes BM a bit*

GC has a fair point, geraintm is still voting not science based off RVS reasoning, which is just a very lazy vote park that is not seemingly going to get us anywhere this day phase. I'm not real fond of it.

If he's town, it's as though he is playing a scared game, and I also don't really like that. If he is scum, it makes sense; he wants to stay in the background.

@GC: if you had to guess, what do you think geraintm's alignment is?

Does anyone have experience with scum Dunnstral? I have only played with town Dunnstral as scum to my recollection (2 times).

I know that as town he is not the hardest player to sort, but he still is a little bit tricky. He is easier to sort than nm for sure.

Also, he might get easier by the day, but he also might not. So I am not totally against a lynch there, but would just prefer to keep him in for two reasons. One is he is one of the few players I have experience with, so I might be able to read him better as the game progresses. And two, I do not really find what he has done so far to be super scummy, and if anything the push against him gives me a slight intuition he might be town. I could be wrong there, and I would like to see him post more, but I am not super suspicious.

I do think it is very likely, however, that if one Votato/Dunn is scum, the other is not, and should be assumed to be town. I just don't see them as connected, as votato has made very little mention of Dunn in his posts and Dunn throwing votato out of the blue as a scum partner to someone... wouldn't seem like the smartest plan if they were scum partners? I mean, that's a little bold, drawing that much attention to you

and

your partner?

Stungun's interaction and handling of Votato was the first thing that popped out to me, mainly due to the formers actions.

There are points of the interaction where I doubt the genuineness of the votato push by them was for pressure, and rather, was a set up to further a push on germ.

First is post 325, which introduces the lead in read progression on genermitn. I dont mind this in isolation or from part of votato's post 324 since votato was a bit more vocal about the slot. I could see Town!stungun attempting to do a reaction test to see if votato hard commits to scum reading germ. As a form of survival for example. However, stungun already knew that votato liked their case on germ from the same post (324) meaning such an test would already be flawed. For votato to commit to the scum read, all he would have to do is analyze what part of the case he agrees or disagrees with. Its 326 and 328 though that begins to draw the line between a bad test and stungun having different motives.

In order to understand why 326 and 328 are problematic, we need to look at votato's 350. I know, it may seem werid to prove the past with the future, but in this case the later actions of stungun helps highlight the importance of the eariler ones. 350 is votato's analysis of germ. Which even he admits to farside is wishy washy. What's intresting about this post is that

stungun post after this doesn't remotely try to analyze this and instead voices support for germ. Remember, stungun wanted to see critical thinking from votato and more importantly just had a reason to doubt votato further over concluding that the meta defense was NAI. I would conclude if somebody i accused of needing to make more logical content made a washy analysis and went on to self admit it, that they may infact warrant further analysis.

That wasn't the case. Coupled with posts like 326 and 328, I dont feel stungun really cared about reading votato and wanted to simply push germ, giving the illusion they cared about sorting votato while trying to convince him to hop on. Posts after the meta case, 339, also support this.

Further, I can see why scum!stungun would want to have votato on that wagon: scapegoat. Assuming scum!stungun and town!germ., votato would of look horrendous if the mislynch went through having hoped on while being pressured. This buys mafia another free lynch potentially without much effort. Depending on if someone like Dunn

All in all, I dont believe the votato interaction by stungun was done for what was claimed. I wouldnt be surprised if Dunnstral is scum and stungun picked to pressure other LHFesk players in a bid to protect Dunnstral.

(Catching up)

^Also thanks stungun for ignoring to quote the parts of 607 that say "I dont think the pressuring/germ is genuine" and gives more reasons to why I had scum pings on you besides "didnt do a reaction test".

Why did you cut those parts out?

[HK 50]

I hate that porkens claimed VT. I think scum would have claimed a PR here.

Same, I was kinda hoping he claimed a non invest PR role since BM was breadcrumbing cop with emojis harder.

[HK 50]

And yet I had voted geraintm at an earlier point and clearly indicated that I was OK with him getting pressure? Did you happen to miss that?

I don't think as town you doubt the genuineness of that interaction. Like it really gave me a scummy feel about you that I have been unable to shake.

No I did not; that's not the issue I had. I never had an issue with you wanting to redirect pressure there because of suspicions.

My issue was with how it came across to votato which felt unnatural. There was several points where you felt you were either trying to force votato to commit (via stating that it was the only wagon other than him you would move to) on top of it feeling purposely leading after votato gave his first read about germ. Finally, I found it off putting that you dropped reading votato and prioritized pushing germ when the thread topic switched to that, leaving votato's 650 for example untouched till later which was the analysis you claimed you wanted to see.

Why do you think town me has to see it as genuine?

[HK 50]

Oh I forgot to inculde the point that you had also reintroduced votato meta discussion there and had doubts about the claim which made the dropping of votato additionally puzzling as well.

[HK 50]

I cant see the case on GC sadly at least according to what farside said.

I saw several other interactions not included in the spoilers I believe between Him and BM which makes sense progression wise and isnt as disingenuous as lead to believed. I also liked several of his points and especially the stance he took throughout page 43.

I will concede I can sorta see the pressing many angles yet not commiting to them points some argue, though I dont think it's done enough to point to only scum!GC

[HK 50]

I just don't see how you doubted it that much as town... It felt forced to me. And when something feels forced, you often equate that to them being scummy in this game we play.

All I did was ask him, would you be willing to vote him? Because I wanted those two wagons to have votes, and that was a way I could potentially get that happen. Like, what is so suspect about that and makes you want to doubt everything about it?

And yet I had voted geraintm at an earlier point and clearly indicated that I was OK with him getting pressure? Did you happen to miss that?

I don't think as town you doubt the genuineness of that interaction. Like it really gave me a scummy feel about you that I have been unable to shake.

No I did not; that's not the issue I had. I never had an issue with you wanting to redirect pressure there because of suspicions.

My issue was with how it came across to votato which felt unnatural. There was several points where you felt you were either trying to force votato to commit (via stating that it was the only wagon other than him you would move to) on top of it feeling purposely leading after votato gave his first read about germ.

Finally, I found it off putting that you dropped reading votato and prioritized pushing germ when the thread topic switched to that, leaving votato's 650 for example untouched till later which was the analysis you claimed you wanted to see.

Why do you think town me has to see it as genuine?

As for the bolded, this is easily explainable too. I started getting some bad feelings about my push on Votato, so I moved away from him, and there was (and still honestly is) absolutely no support for a Geri wagon. No one has voted him outside of Bob and I in this game. No one. So I went to other scummy suspects.

I just see things different then I guess. Considering my arguement against you was that you were forced, I'm fine with that assessment.

(To be honest this alt was made as an experiment of sorts that failed but w/e, the results is all I needed)

Anyways, to give a better view point, This is how I saw it:
-Votato gives his germ read
-325 comes and gives the first inquiry to look into germ further and consider joining you on the wagon
-several posts are made (which are in 607. I dont remember them by heart post wise to link them) which repeatedly came across as "I'm looking into you votato more, but you could vote germ. I'm voting there. I would like it if you voted there" etc.

The repeatence of it is what bothers me. You made more than just that one quote you linked after 325 actively voicing to votato that it's ok to vote there rather than just have votato come naturely to a more expanded stance on the matter. This is all while actively suspecting votato at the time. In short, it didnt actually look like you seriously suspected Votato at all and merely wanted another person to hop onto your bandwagon which didnt line up to your perspective.

Now if it was someone you had townread and wasnt voting for, and lacked the survialistic notion thrusted upon votato, I would find it to be an alright interaction.

As for re 350: which is a fine explanation, but not one present in the timeframe. There wasnt anything indicating that you had switched your stance on votato till much much later where you told him you reread his meta and he is now town. You still kept that notion he was scum after I posted as well by putting him in assocatied teams.

[HK 50]

Plus to the prododge:

Prodging - A naked "prod dodge" does not reset the prod timer. To avoid being prodded/replaced for inactivity, include some game advancing content in your prodges, such as "got prodded; xxxx is still scum."

You are required to give some content related information, so I just went with the example and said "dunn was still scum".

[HK 50]

Actually why am I debating with you stungun? You think I'm scum for sure. I'm getting heavy scum vibes. We arent really resolving anything for either side and are clogging the thread up.

If you sign this contract to not misquote me and fully quote posts from my ISO instead of cutting key parts that represent my full train of thoughts, then we can both spend time convincing the rest of the game the other is scum.

I don't normally negotiate with scummy terrorist like yourself, but I'm willing to make an expection this time. I also putting in more effort than I like defending myself which takes away from the timeframes I have to actually scumhunt. (I'm also kinda on a handful of over the counter medications sooooo)

Murder in our time stungun?

[HK 50]

Also NS, I can understand the rationale about not wanting to move malakitten vote to a degree, but I expect that the additional concealed reason to be explained asap when possible.

Honestly I still personally dont see it lining up with your projected tone over the matter

[HK 50]

Spoiler:

Wait I'll do one better stungun. In addition to the terms laid out above, I'll will allow the cross discussion between our respective parties (yours being the scum PT, mine being town of course) on the grounds we only pose new, exciting, and potentially scandalous questions to one another.

Look at it like this: you can find new information to scum read me on, and the rest of the thread can gague if its scummy too! I see little issue in this.

You agreed without actually voicing consent? Good!

We have both been vocal about NS recently right? What do you take about the projected tone by them over people wanting to lynch porks slot not aligning to them failing to move malakitten vote?

[HK 50]

Until I can evaluate something from pork, VOTE: Stungun4040

I dont see what others do for the most part in GC, and pork is taking his time catching up. I'm not super subscribed to the notion that interaction has to be TvS either.

[HK 50]

Oh people are saying eleventh hour for the literal sense and not the metaphor. I thought we had an extra day.

I'm at doctors and havent read much currently, but I'll consolidate where I'm needed to ensure a lynch (even if I disagree).

[HK 50]

Stungun why do you think the wagon state is only explained by inactive scum?

I'm generally curious. When I left, it was mostly between GC vs Pork, and now there is a completely new wagon competition. The only way your inactivity theory makes sense to me is if neither pork or GC is scum from your POV since there was a clear pivot in gamestate to promote a whole new set of bandwagons.

[HK 50]

UNVOTE: btw

[HK 50]

thought I would lok over Dunnstral, as they are currently the biggest wagon.

they are throwing arounda bunch of "they are mafia" posts very easily.
they have a few posts where they say they think someone is town.

they seem a bit trigger happy with their calling people scum, but overall...nothing here I am too upset about yet.

I think this is the post where I defended Dunn.
I remember feeling like I really should look over people in the game, and looking at the person with the most votes was the obvious place to start. If everyone else was thinking they were scummy, could I see it too? Maybe join the wagon.

I looked. I saw nothing to get upset about. And said so.
I wouldn't say it was a hard felt defence of them though. I didnt try and start an alternative wagon on anyone, it was just me going Meh to it

492 is actually pretty scummy seeing it here again. The whole post is basically germ refurbishing Dunns ISO in a manner to indicate a scum conclusion (which he starts to admit at the end of the post), but conclude that its NAI.

the no lynch push admiss the shuffling of vote counts is also equally as terrible. It's clear that either method robs town of a lynch anyways (barring a successful protect), and in essence gives scum a mislynch without any gain for town. Meta aside, it's not a hard conclusion to draw independently on why such a move is a folly. The timing of it bothers me greatly.

The only town ping I see in germ is the refusal to claim which I can understand to a degree. With one claim already out there, germ claiming gives mafia two more bits of info assuming both is town and neither actually get lynched. Moreover, I really don't see why mafia wouldnt at least try to bait out more chaos by just claiming a PR. Yes GC already brought up scums tendency to do so, but I think that event actually gives good WIFOM potential to exploit for scum!germ.

[HK 50]

Stungun why do you think the wagon state is only explained by inactive scum?

I'm generally curious. When I left, it was mostly between GC vs Pork, and now there is a completely new wagon competition. The only way your inactivity theory makes sense to me is if neither pork or GC is scum from your POV since there was a clear pivot in gamestate to promote a whole new set of bandwagons.

We've had plenty of time to lynch someone (3 days added to original day phase), and if scum was taking a super active approach in general, then we most likely would have already secured a lynch. Yet it is still hard to secure a lynch, no matter the direction we go in (Porkens taken to L-1 at the furthest but very briefly, Votato/Dunn to L-2 and now Geraintm finally to L-2). Note that I was on every single one of the wagons I believe when they were at their peak, so assuming others think I am town trying to pressure/see how others react to different wagons, then it makes perfect sense that there are one if not more passive scumplayers that are not taking an active part in pushing things in a specific direction.

It's not hard to secure a lynch when scum is actively helping, especially if every single one of them are in some way. By the feel of things alone, this suggests to me that there is definitely a passive scum member somewhere to be found.

Why cant scum take the middle road route (which is realtively normal scum play) and only be active enough to balance influencing the gamestate and not over commiting? Especially if dunn was town and slash or GC/pork was a TvT which plays into their agenda.

That's what im confused about. You think GC/Pork contains one scum. GC then applied a counter to the pork wagon by finding it townie he claimed VT. You still think as of last page GC is likely the scum there. Which indicates to me that you think scum!GC actively diverted pressure from the pork/GC fight yet that's not what you claim with the inactive theory.

From your theory, are ignoring scum potentially trying to save a partner as well; a situation that would invoke scum to purposely NOT secure a lynch.

(Also I think 4-5 days have actually been added to the timer)

[HK 50]

HK50, Geraintm is against claiming in general though, so it would not make any sense for him to claim given the stance he took against me earlier in the game. Him claiming PR would be sketchy af given that stance.

We have one day left in this day phase and about 5 hours, which means

@Porkens: it is really important that you claim in your next post so that if your role is important to us that are town, we can keep you and have more time to make a well-informed decision to move elsewhere.

I hate cdemands for claims like this. it never seems to help. if it is scum, they can flush out someone else or else send town onto a wild lynch chase that won't go anywhere good. if it is town...how is getting them to claim and out themselves going to help?

He wants no claims at all -- that was what he was trying to promote.

If scum and we implement this plan as town, this plan would provide scum an opportunity to lynch power roles without them even claiming.

That, and scum does not want to be forced into a role claim, naturally because they are scum.

Oh I forgot about that quote and missed when reading through his ISO.

I concede it's an NAI point now in regards to lack of claiming

[HK 50]

Robutt, please vote Porkens

Kiss my shiney metal ass.

[HK 50]

Dude pork is not even near the top lol. Why are you trying to move me there?

Pedit: I still think it's assumption based even when factoring town's inability at times to mobilize lynches.

Honestly though it's a theory until a scum flip comes out. Assuming neither of us die tomorrow (mafia you know you want to nightkill me), we can argue more about it.

I'm in a hard spot here decision wise.

[HK 50]

On one vicegrip, I can get behind germ bandwagon. I see suspicious stuff that has started to cross over the border of bored townie/anti Day 1 beleiver.

On the other, the wagon composition is bad as pointed out. Yes stungun is there, but I can suspend my suspicions for a moment. I'm more alarmed that all three counter wagons (pork/dunn/votato) all jumped to that wagon pushing it to L-2.

[HK 50]

Why cant scum take the middle road route (which is realtively normal scum play) and only be active enough to balance influencing the gamestate and not over commiting? Especially if dunn was town and slash or GC/pork was a TvT which plays into their agenda.

Yeah, tbh I think he is coming from a "less likely" perspective here, which again suggests he is not town but rather scum. Town favors what is more probable, and usually does not throw out what is less possible, but HK has done so quite a few times this day phase.

Also, he came up with a reason to support Gera being scummy. He does not vote gera, but actually ends up drawing attention to all three of the counterwagons that are voting him.

Ding ding ding: they could be scum together.

How is my point that you are ignoring a playstyle typically employed by scum "unlikely"? I'm literally asking why cant scum sit back if one of those cases was leading to a mislynch? You didnt actually address the point.

Does it not concern you that three counter wagons, including one that you have a potential scum read on all hopped to germ.? Yes I'm debating it and reading the counterwagons before committing to a wagon.

[HK 50]

I can actually follow what lead them to vote there looking into their ISOs. The fact that votato and Dunn dont want to vote eachother makes me feel better on the opportunistic hop on point since I dont see them as scum buddies.

Pedit: give me a moment to read that

[HK 50]

I mean, passivity makes more sense than that based off the gamefeel so far, firstly. Second of all, you are assuming GC and pork is T vs. T and that their agenda fits that description which I could not possibly disagree with more (I think personally it is highly unlikely they are T vs. T based off their early pushes of each other, although others can debate that too). Third of all, you are supporting a point that still speaks to scum taking on a certain degree of passivity, which actually ends up supporting my point in a way (lol).

And not really, I think Dunn is likely town, and Vot I am coming around on. Porkens, meh, maybe/maybe not. Does not worry me too much, and it's because of how anti-town some of gera's post have come off to me. If he is playing town that is to say that I think he is playing a really bad game FMPOV, which makes it easier to assume he is scum because in that case he is not playing a bad game so far FMPOV.

Worst case scenario with this vote IMO, we knock out someone who although town hasn't contributed anything to helping us lynch this far. In fact, they have made it that much harder, and thus it makes sense that they are scum. We also get rid of someone who has done more anti-town things than town things, meaning we rid this game of a distraction.

And you are assuming that it's a T v S and

their partners are not active to is try and save their buddy

. I think a point later that illustrates my point more is your take on NS regarding votato a page ago. Defending one player to push another without actually consolidating onto one target.

I'm not saying mafia "can never be passive". I'm implying that there are typically reasons relating to the game state to why mafia would be inactive vs active. One of this is to just muddy the game phase into a inactive lurkfest like you suggested (even though that does require some active manipulation usually). However, we like you said have had multiple instances where we cannot secure one lynch. Now that can be because of inactiveness/lack of clout from scum, but it can also be simply that scum doesnt want particular lynches for whatever reason (such as not wanting to lynch a buddy). I don't think we are in a situation to accurately gague what's going on which lead to led to the question I'm the first place.

[HK 50]

Hmm.

VOTE: Geraintm

L1

[HK 50]

Hmm.

VOTE: Geraintm

L1

I'm also not going to be around deadline potentially, so this gives the chance to hammer if others are in the same boat.

Trash time. Brb

[HK 50]

Notes PT - Let me know if you want a private thread to store your thoughts and feedback for the other players. This thread will be made public immediately after the game. You may draft posts in your notes PT but you

may not talk about your notes PT in public. You definitely may not use the notes PT to demonstrate that you've had a town mindset in private all along; just put your town mindset in public to begin with and keep your notes to yourself.

As a friendly reminder.

When I get off work I'll post actual content.

[HK 50]

I'm starting with stungun for obvious reasons in my pov. It's a bit tricky to analyze their ISO due to how they, for lack of a better word, sporadically hopped from different wagons they were scum reading. Normally I would equate that to scum behavior, however, I'm actually having a hard time debating rather or not its unfocused eager townie mindset due in part of how much substance is there for the wagon switches. Therefore, I'm leaving that aspect of stunguns play open to others to read into at their pleasure.

What I did want to focus on is their progression leading up to the BM vs GC read.

Spoiler: stungun early posts on GC vs bm

Also, it's not that I am looking for associatives in the sense of who is working together, but more I am looking to make sense of the game from the standpoint of "the game only makes sense if one of these players is scum", and the alternative makes absolutely no sense.

There are ways to read into that on D1, such as vote pushes for example.

Now I will look into your bm suspicion, GC.

OK, so I am going to try my best to summarize GC's case on BM from what I gather, because I have been having a little bit of trouble interpreting it fully on the surface:
first, GC suspects one of the votes on the original Votato wagon to be scum between me, ns, Bob, mala, and BM, because the votes were lazy on that wagon.
GC finds BM scummy because his vote on Votato looks made up, because BM said he liked my meta analysis on Votato which said what he has done so far is NAI, but because BM thought Votato was scummy for what I analyzed. So GC finds BM to voting Votato there not because he thinks Votato is truly scummy, but instead extending my NAI read on Votato to mean he is scummy? In some ways, I can understand this logic here, but in other ways this seems a little bit of a stretch, so I'm conflicted looking at this reasoning? BM could have just voted Votato on the basis of not seeing anything scummier to that point, so I feel like the better argument would be that he's not properly scumhunting, and thus he is scum assuming your vantage point is town. He simply is feeding off of my read, and interpreting ~ to be scummy based off of that, using my analysis to both shield him and pocket me.

So, yes I will concede overall to GC that is a little bit of a poor push, which is what aided me in concluding that one of you has to be scum because conceivably that push could be an instance of scum not truly scumhunting, but faking it. OTOH, you know I have already felt strong about you, GC, and so from my perspective seeing BM's push together with my read on you, I can't possibly see a gamestate where neither of you are scum.

OK, you also have a fair point in the fact that BM is conflicting himself in 404 by keeping his vote on Votato while saying "last time I saw something like this, it flipped town, but what can you do about it?" That is honestly weird, but in your case I noted the same thing with you voting BM while pushing Dunnstral, so I have seen this in effect from both of you, and thus by this logic too it does not make sense that both of you are town.

I am just honestly stuck in a situation right now where I am not yet convicted enough in BM's scumminess yet to move my vote off you, especially since something you have done ended up being a reason you are pushing BM.

525] You also made a case against BM here, but I am having trouble understanding this push, so it will take a little extra parsing, but I will attempt to understand what is scummy about it from your vantage point as soon as I can.

Yeah, that's strange, I'm ngl... I will need explanation for that.

Here's a town game of GC's that looks remarkably different from this game of his (compare his ISO here).

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... %5B%5D=150
Lots of townreads, and lots of observing good things about players.

Here in this game, very minimal townreads, and a lot of observing bad things about players, which seems shady compared to his ISO from that game.

Just wasted my time looking at a couple Not_Mafia games, Open 779 (scum) and Newbie 1985 (town). Pretty redundant in both, similar posting style and attitude, slightly more trigger happy with the vote as scum but nothing much to get excited about. So could go either way here, and expect more of the same.

In other news, I've decided HK 50 is actually town, and figured out the most likely reason why Green Crayons voted Dunnstral. So that's something!

This is perhaps the one post BM has made that makes me reluctant to think he's scum. I got a very weak townlean out of it. I don't necessarily have that post yet with GC, but feel very confident in one of them being scum so that is definitely where I would like to lynch today.

I almost feel like scum doesn't even bother with trying to sort nm through meta (the nullest player there is), but granted he does not come up with a concrete conclusion for it, so it's not like he takes a hard stance or anything. So in the end, I am not sure what I should take from this, although I know that early on it was a reason for a slight townlean on BM.

This, of course assumes BM has experience with nm, though.

OTOH, with BM, I don't spot any sense of urgency in his scumhunting pursuit, and I don't like having that feel.

I'm not against voting him out, and would prefer him over Dunnstral because there is more substance there, as there really isn't much substance to a Dunn lynch except for a few posts made at the beginning of the game that really could just be town making a few early-game declarations based off what they felt which have been taken out of context. That said, I am open to potentially lynching him tomorrow, provided today's flip is scum. I really don't feel confident yet on Dunn flipping scum, especially since there has seemed to be little pushback to his wagon since the votato wagon dissolved. That is, taking away my own push/case on GC.

I find it weird that geraintm and dunn are suddenly coming out of the woodwork sticking up for BM, and dunn has already stuck up against geraintm being lynched, and geraintm weakly against dunn? Anyone else find this strange?

VOTE: BM

I am starting to get a sense that he is the true scum between him/GC; the lack of proactivity/genuine scumhunting from him is pretty damning.

Mage(BM)/votato/Dunn

Close nm, but I think the scumteam is BM-Votato-HK. There is a clear link there, and I'm going to explain what I see there soon.

* His original explanation; noting that BM had another one in 573, but it did take him a long time to actually voice it.

On another note, I have luckily found enough time the last handful of days to build individual cases with a spoiler each of evidence on why each of BM/Clidd-Votato and HK are linked. I silently gathered evidence after getting a suspicion about them being linked Thursday before I finally convinced myself well enough to question them yesterday. I will submit the cases I have gathered here in a minute.

Let's start with a Votato!Scumteam Case. Through his posts is where it all starts making sense! Even though he was a null read for me, he’s the link that makes so much sense between my two biggest scumleans of HK and BM/Clidd.

The Votato post is easily the longest of the three, b/c there’s the most evidence, so be prepared this one's a bit longer than the others.

There’s also reason to believe Dunnstral is town from this evidence.

Spoiler: Scumteam Case from Votato's posts

Look at this, the first RVS vote from Votato:

VOTE: hk 50 i know that you're really an assassin droid

Instance attempt at a distancing vote? Note the wording: I "know" that you are really an "assassin droid".

How can you "know" that he is an "assassin droid" unless you are, in fact, scum with him?

Dunnstral even called this out in 20, of all players, which completely makes sense from a town!Dunnstral perspective.

Town or scum im enjoying hk-50 commitment for posting style.

He's scum with votato, but I'll let him live for being amusing

Dunnstral clarified later to farside that he vaguely saw that as a partner post. I can see it that way too.

Then there is also a reason to link BM with Votato, also based off Votato's posting: Votato did vote Battle Mage early on too. He even voteparked there early on for 25 posts in his ISO (so if BM was lynched that could serve as distancing). However, when it counted most it seems that he has, in fact, been resistant to that wagon. This is in spite of expressing "a willingness to lynch there" in 555

VOTE: crayons there are no current good wagons, my vote is on BM as a placeholder ffs.

Votato votes GC, sheeping me because of my good case, as mentioned in Votato's 456. However, scum has incentive to use me as a shield to themselves so that they are the ones that are not at fault after a mislynch. Assuming GC!town, Votato can deny responsibility because I was the one who made the push, and him the one that sheeped it.

in one post Votato says, while his vote sheeps me on GC:

yeah at this point im fine with a GC or BM lynch.

But then when I flip to BM, Votato proves this wrong because he starts defending BM, and not flipping to vote him with me.

VOTE: BM

I am starting to get a sense that he is the true scum between him/GC; the lack of proactivity/genuine scumhunting from him is pretty damning.

The very next post, Votato says:

Gc why do you want to flip bm if you think he'll flip town?

This distracts away from my BM vote, all the while allowing himself to defend the GC vote even more, and bringing attention to the player I flipped from, GC, calling him out on an inconsistency.

In essence, Votato is defending BM subtly, and has expressed no willingness in his ISO since then to move over to him, even though he declared at an earlier point "I am fine lynching either of BM or GC." His actions suggest otherwise. It suggests that perhaps Votato is afraid of moving over to BM, because that would make a majority wagon, as it would cause a tie in votes between BM and Dunnstral. This would cause BM, in turn, to be considered more seriously by others. Seems like a natural reaction that could happen when one is presented with the chance to put a partner of their's in danger.

Next, a very short case on association from HK50's posts. HK has really not talked at all about either of Votato or BM in a scummy sense, but also doesn't really appear to be truly scumhunting in general. So that is something to keep an eye on.

Further, HK is on the counterwagon of Dunnstral, which could be seen as protecting a potential partner in Clidd/BM.

HK is only voting Dunnstral, per his 307 because "he agrees with what has been said about him." This is a lazy sheep vote. Does that seem like genuine scumhunting to you? Especially since he's voteparked there?

Spoiler: Scumteam Case from HK's posts

HK interestingly utilized my interactions with Votato against me to support cases that are a bit of a stretch about me being scum, in his 607.

Further, HK also conveniently flipped on his early town indication on me he expressed in 304, saying that he "felt better about me" because he thinks I used "bad townie logic." But then, suddenly in 607, in my interactions with Votato, he frames it so that he can make me look scummier AND concludes nothing negative on Votato, perhaps making his partner look better?

Finally, from the BM/Clidd angle, which is long like the Votato one, but all but seals the deal on this scumteam for me.

Spoiler: Scumteam Case from BM's posts

First note: when the Votato wagon was a thing. Guess who was on the wagon? That's right! Battle Mage joined it 4th (after Mala/me/Bob) and did so with very weak reasoning in his 343, while HK remained on Dunnstral (the majority wagon with limited pushback). This holds true to the theory of scum having to distance on a possible majority wagon on a partner, but also having to join a wagon on a partner.

I am currently a few pages into reading, but would like to make a request. @HK50, I love your posting style -- so nothing against it -- but could you possibly use less sophisticated words to get your points across? I can understand what you are saying if I really spend time looking into your every post, but it is very hard to read some of your posts on the surface.

Another reason I ask this is because using a ton of more complicated words makes it more difficult than normal to read your intentions. This posting style could be extremely effective for scum to hide behind, because it is an easy way for them to blanket their intentions, because a lot more effort is needed than typical to truly ***ess their motives.

And if you are town, then it should make sense why this could become an issue. Because if people are having to spend too much time looking at a townplayer's posts to unpack their motives, it takes away from their focus of scumhunting, which absolutely could lead us down the wrong path in the long run.

I completely agree with this, his posts are pretty unreadable for me too because of the format. But I also think it's a very conspicuous posting style and a lot of effort for scum to keep up with minimal value, so slight townlean.

Like, if scum, why bother?

Battle Mage also sticks up for HK here. And is interestingly the first and only if I remember correctly to stick up for him there.

Votato votes are lazy. I bet one of y'all are scum.

Challenge accepted!

VOTE: Votato

I like the meta analysis by stungun, clearly nobody is getting behind Green Crayons, and I think I'm townleaning Dunnstral. And seriously, voting BM on Day 1? This dude has run out of ideas...

Here is the weak reason BM joined the Votato wagon: it was after interpreting my NAI meta analysis to be

AI

. That is a stretch. Is it because they are scum partners?

@Votato:

are you a pathetic *** scum?

A little harsh, but I did employ some artistic licence

On serious note,

Green Crayons queuing up Votato for some dodgy self-meta; 2 scum down?

BM sets up a GC link to Votato, interestingly, perhaps to mislynch later if Votato flips?

Does anyone have experience with scum Dunnstral? I have only played with town Dunnstral as scum to my recollection (2 times).

I know that as town he is not the hardest player to sort, but he still is a little bit tricky. He is easier to sort than nm for sure.

Also, he might get easier by the day, but he also might not. So I am not totally against a lynch there, but would just prefer to keep him in for two reasons. One is he is one of the few players I have experience with, so I might be able to read him better as the game progresses. And two, I do not really find what he has done so far to be super scummy, and if anything the push against him gives me a slight intuition he might be town. I could be wrong there, and I would like to see him post more, but I am not super suspicious.

I do think it is very likely, however, that if one Votato/Dunn is scum, the other is not, and should be ***umed to be town. I just don't see them as connected, as votato has made very little mention of Dunn in his posts and Dunn throwing votato out of the blue as a scum partner to someone... wouldn't seem like the smartest plan if they were scum partners? I mean, that's a little bold, drawing that much attention to you

and

your partner?

I've seen scum-Dunnstral once. He tried harder than this and seemed more engaged in a game where he replaced in maybe 60 pages deep - definitely feels town here. Agree with top half of your post, last para doesn't sound right to me. In my recent experience, scum often make little mention of their buddies to avoid ***ociations being drawn.

But lynching Vot-scum first is the play, and then decide whether to bite for his stungun 'slip'. Gut says probably not

.

He still is sheeping me on Votato because of my "meta analysis", but he again is the only one to throw out the possibility of Votato and me in fact being scum together, actually taking Votato's "slip" post somewhat seriously, which is so called a "slip" because of these posts from Votato:

i have a little but i cant talk about it. by day 2 or 3 ill probably give some more details. as for the ***ociation you're drawing between me and dunn, stun, you're right that we aren't scumbuddies, but i dont think your reasons why are all that strong.

plus the only reason you know that is cuz you and i are scumbuddies

.

*** wrong thread.

Finally, the icing on the cake:

i have a little but i cant talk about it. by day 2 or 3 ill probably give some more details. as for the association you're drawing between me and dunn, stun, you're right that we aren't scumbuddies, but i dont think your reasons why are all that strong. plus the only reason you know that is cuz you and i are scumbuddies.

*** wrong thread.

Last time I saw something like this it flipped town, but what can ya do!?

He uses this scumslip for reason to townread Votato

I am convinced this is the scum team. I think we should lynch them consecutively.

Also note all three of Votato, BM and GC have weakly sheep-voted people, using players as shields.

Votato sheeping me immediately onto GC, BM very weakly sheeping me onto Votato, and HK weakly sheeping Farside and others onto Dunnstral without bringing any new evidence to the table regarding Dunnstral!scum.

Thus, it seems voting Clidd is the right move here.

[too lazy to fix the 50 spoiler tag issues]

I find the timing and progression to the BM vote during the exchange to be odd. Preceding their vote on BM was posts 557 and 580 which threw suspicions off BM and onto dunn and germ. Yet they not only vote BM afterwards, but also when BM was only at 2 votes and was not a fully established counter wagon yet. This leads me to two conclusions:

-Stungun is town and flopped on their dunn/BM read based off their voting reason (sense of feeling true scum between GC and BM was BM and that BM lacked a lot of scum hunting)

Or

-stungun was scum and preemptively begun shading other players (me, votato, dunn, and germ) in case BM flipped.

A strong case could be made for the second situation as taking a step back and looking at stunguns theory that scum was inactive as a whole pairs conveniently nicely with the pool. However, I think it's not only invailded partially due to the timing of the vote and bus, but also how stungun handled clidd not posting after replacing in. If that was for credit, why go after the most bullshit of reasons to vote BM rather than make an independent case supporting the wagon?

Stunguns switch to voting BM is also lacking a lot of supporting logic which I find problematic if it was indeed a preemptive bus. Typically scum wants to paint a stronger narrative for themselves and struggle over keeping their story in check. Given Stungund posting habits demonstrating what would be a strong ability to mimic townlike scum hunting, it further casts doubt over it being a bus.

Therefore I think the early execution of their vote switch and subsequent ill focus on the slot likely points to town!stungun. I will be reading the later half of the progression since A) I remember them returning to GC being the likely scum again and B) to see in what context they dropped the BM/pork in favor for germ slash other lynches.

First though is my delicious lunch.

[HK 50]

Also if it wasn't clear town read on GC. Tentatively townread on Not mafia since I remember they were pushing pork hard towards the end of the day. Need to check on that.

[HK 50]

Lunch turned into working on some stuff, so back now. I keep getting interrupted, so apologize in advance if sections of this sound disjointed.

Spoiler: Pivot off of BM

GC, why aren't you voting anyone right now?

If Clidd flukily flips town, we lynch Dunn, guaranteed tomorrow.

nope

that townflip is not going to happen, I am that convinced, which is why I am willing to offer that.

my reads, based off a combination of feel and reasoning.

titanium-strong town reads: bob, dr. pepper
solid town reads, but not beyond doubt: farside, notscience, malakittens
likely town: nm
nulltown: Dunnstral (this is notably my weakest town indication though)

minus associations and all the other stuff i have been pondering, here is how i would rate the others based strictly off the assumption that anyone could be partnered with anyone:

null: votato, gc

scumleans: geraintm, hk50

strongest scumread: clidd/bm

I'm not scumreading Green crayons from his interaction with me just now, and I wasn't before that either. That vote is a pass from me.

I'll vote somebody else because you are being more flexible.

VOTE: HK 50

I would 100% be down to lynch there if others are.

Still wanting someone to analyze his ISO and see if it looks like he is scumhunting. Because he isn't to me, and that's suggestive that he is scum.

And for the record, if both of the only 2 players HK has made a serious push on this game (Dunn and I) think he's scum, then maybe it would be good for others to look more closely at his pushes too.

Clidd is in replacement zone, so hopefully we get a replacement soon. Why don't we give a replacement extra time and lynch here? I'll put my money where my mouth is.

VOTE: HK50

if someone conducts a lot of analysis, like hk has thus far, and does not have the appearance they are scumhunting, then they are likely scum. and i'll leave it at that.

@farside, what do you think about HK and whether he is scumhunting or not? From your angle, technically the scum team could be GC-NS-HK, I would think, if you look into HK

Ok, I want you to try one more angle that might shift your perspective, and then I will be done trying to convince you about HK.

Imagine for a second you are Dunnstral (who you think is town). How then would you feel if you were Dunnstral with the way HK is pushing him?

Just search for all mentions of Dunn in his ISO to keep this simple.

I agree 100% that one of GC/BM is scum. Like there is no possible way that could ever be town vs. town there. No qualifications at all. I am glad we have both come to that conclusion, farside!

I think it was perfectly called for. You didn't ask a question. You made a statement to lob another suspicion based on your really, spectacularly bad meta analysis that farside has glomped onto like a leach. It's exhausting.

It is not bad, because early on I noticed a drastic difference in the number of questions you asked in a few of your town games vs. the number you had asked in here through a certain number of posts, which was suggestive that maybe you were not curious enough because you are scum.

I wanted to keep that to myself though to see if you kept doing that. Still, you've had 153 posts, and you have only asked 9 questions that I would consider to possibly be sorting questions now this game, which is not a lot. Given your town meta, this might suggest you have more answers than questions because you are scum, which is what I was trying to figure out since it differs with established townplay of yours.

A difference that is large with something like that is worth keeping in mind. You should be able to fully understand why that can appear scummy.

It is not bad, because early on I noticed a drastic difference in the number of questions you asked in a few of your town games vs. the number you had asked in here through a certain number of posts, which was suggestive that maybe you were not curious enough because you are scum.

Y’all rely way too much on so called meta.

Well, you can say that, but I do want to at least point out what I mean that may end up being AI here.

Your first 153 posts here, I found 9 possible sorting questions.

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... %5B%5D=150
In your most recent towngame there, I found 26 possible sorting questions.

When there's a gap like that, meta might help you solve someone. Not that it's conclusive by any means, but it is something to keep in mind.

Nice, someone I've played with before! Hey Porkens -- I remember we were on a scumteam together a few years back. Welcome to the game!

Stunguns vote off BM/clidd honestly looks really bad. At this point, the VC was 6 on clidd and 4 on Dunnstral for reference.

I dont have a major issue with wanting to give the replacement time after their reading into clidd's inactivity (as I lobbied for that). My bigger issue is the entire disappearance of the read in favor of discussing voting me once Dunnstral, another player, begun the push. They projected a sense of confidence eariler to the point of compromising on voting Dunnstral if BM didnt flip scum. This sense of knowing clidd/bm/pork was scum disappears entirely after the vote switch which doesn't make sense. I couldn't find a single post reaffirming their suspicions over BM despite the wagon persisting for awhile.

Additionally, it was clear the vote on me wasnt for pressure either while waiting for a replacement. If you take a look at the wording of 877 its relatively clear that stungun wanted to remove me day 1 rather than clidd. I had thought that Prehaps it was just a switch over to aid in dunn (their town read) push onto me, but that was disproved.

I think more importantly though is comparing how stungun pushed me versus BM. Remember, stunguns content relating to why BM was scum focused a lot on building association rather than explaining why BM was scum independently. This is seemingly reversed with they dealt with me where they not only try to explain why I was singularly scum, but also was actively trying to pull people off the other wagons and onto me. I've tried to think of why this discrepancy could come from town, and the only real reason I could see is maybe it was due to me actively posting when BM wasn't? It still doesn't explain much since stunguns votato/Hk read was had points on stuff only us two had done rather than BM being the only lynchpin, so I would expect some points. If people have rationale for this, please share. I see it sort of reaffirming conclusion two despite the other issues present from the last post.

Overall, the pivot off of voting BM doesn't look natural to me. It seems opportunistic at its core hoping onto a push by Dunnstral and conveniently forgetting their previous suspection on BM and a distinctive difference in the content that was posted between the Bm push and my push. Despite the points that I thought had invalidated my previous scum conclusion, the addition of this evidence points me more to scum!stungun. There are things I still can't explain fully which i would like to debate with the thread.

[HK 50]

[/quote]I feel like you're just trying to justify why you were pushing back against SG pushes on bm/clidd/porkens during day one. Porken flips and Sg repps out and suddenly you claim a tentative town read on the player. You don't claim a town read you just say you town read the first half. Even though nothing has changed.[/quote]
Plenty has changed. Case in point,

porken flipped scum and germ flipped green

. For the latter, it makes me more suspicious of my intial claim that stungun was actively trying to force people they were pressuring (votato) to vote germ. In the case of the former, it gives me more to analyze over their slot given their stance that GC/BM has to contain scum.

As for the second half, I'll answer that with conjunction with the second point.

I can't see a fellow townie not being able to come up on full read a full 3 days after porkens flip and 5 after germa flip. Especially when that is in fact the only player you have talked about so far this day phase. Two days into that very phase.

Why do I have to play mafia how you do? I dont read during the night phase since I like to deattach from the thread during that time. Personally for me, if I spend the night trying to read into things I tend to go into tinfoil theory and get overwhelmed. I also like to see the results of the night kills as well which gives more info to consider. The pause happened at a bad time me when I was hosting guest at my home. So I didnt have a chance to read then.

Also yes it's the first real thing I said this day phase. And? How is that alignment indicative on it's own? You think its werid for me not to consider the implications of what was my top scum read?

So why is the first thing you try to do is try to justify your pushes on SG after porkens was flipped at the start of the day. Just like how you pushed dun both my not saying if he is scum x and if i is town y. You try to present analysis based on both outcomes. Which feels to me like you know which way he will flip and are preparing for that very town flip. As why would another townie who claimed to scum read dun. Present a case for if he was town.

I'm not? I didnt mention anything about any of the reasons I was scum reading SG. The above info is entirely new, so I'm not sure how it would justify unrelated points I've made. Furthermore, it's not like dunn at all actually.

If you actually read the first post closely, you would of noticed I said there that the scum case for stungun had issues which invalidated it and I went into detail why I thought that. This is not close to my eariler post at all on Dunnstral.

You even tried to shade my attempt at sorting farside. When I asked about his posts where it was unclear if he was claiming a scum read or town read on you. Where I asked him about different elements of your posts. In which his reply would be telling and help me sort his slot. Which left me feeling a slight town on him as he just came out with a simple answer and did not overly elaborate on his town read on you. Even though i asked him a wide range of points on it to see if he would concisely explain his read or try and over explain.

Sorting farside? You mean the post where you basically tried to goat them into voting me and including phasing such as "Look at what HK did. He threw a reason to potentially suspect you! Doesnt that concern you". That's appealing to someone's will to live in this game. Its social manipulation and you played dumb over it by asking me later "what's ATE?".

If you reasoning to do it was an reaction test to read farside better, why didnt you come further and claim that to me when I challenged you over it?

[HK 50]

I forgot to mention that I dont really feel post pork replacing in that there was a lot of clear AI points over how stungun handled it. I can see both scum and town motivation in their posts there.

[HK 50]

FWIW I think this scum pool and the reasons for it confirm stun/cat and votato as likely town

Can you explain the stungun/cat part of this more? Is it due to the lack of discussion from pork?

[HK 50]

This Votato wagon is looking good.

maxwell, I attacked N_M because I wasn't scumreading BM and his posts looked bad.

I rather like GC's case on you from what I read (and in general think votato is town). Convince me on it being votato or another player.

Vote Count 2.2

Dunnstral (4):

votato, Green Crayons, maxwell, DoctorPepper

votato (2):

Malakittens, Dunnstral

bob3141 (2):

Not_Mafia, Cat Scratch Fever

Not voting (2):

bob3141, HK 50

---

Mod Notes:

Majority is 6 players.

Cat Scratch Fever has requested an additional day.

Day 2 has begun and will end in (expired on 2020-08-08 08:05:34)

[/area]

According to the VC we have 36 days to wait for it.

Nobody tell the mod that he screwed up and gave town an extra two weeks to discuss things.

[HK 50]

Hello beautiful people, I'm going to be very concise.

Today was not easy. I worked 8+ hours today in ~92°F weather with no shade and direct sun. It was not fun among other things I'll spare you from hearing.

"Now HK, that's fluff. Where's the goods?" Well you see my organic friends, I'm not finishing the post I've been working on tonight. Its half-written and I can't write anymore due to exhaustion. The comprise I see is that I sleep and actually produce something compensable while you threaten to policy lynch me in 24 hours upon failure to deliver it. Unfortunately as a robot, I care little for your rights and am forcing your cooperation with this endeavor. I hope you understand.

This post is obligated to have game related info. Therefore: I believe HK 50 is town. This is a read I feel heavily strong about. Additionally, I find YesWeakUnderYou, the relative of NoPowerOverYou, to be scum for enciting word play with naming conventions.