Mini Normal 2148 (Post Game)

[Battle Mage]

I'll catch up later, but for now:

VOTE: HK 50 - biggest wagon and he appears to have a horrible post restriction and needs to be put out of his misery.

[Battle Mage]

Shiiiiit, I just lost another game, as town, caused by me. Ironically, caused by me actually analysing stuff and not just tunnelling for once.

Just lynch me now PLEASE. :'(

[Battle Mage]

I will be in and out today we just got invited to brunch so getting ready

brunch me daddy

[Battle Mage]

VOTE: Battle Mage

Excellent, finally someone I can trust! UNVOTE: VOTE: Battle Mage

[Battle Mage]

I've had an epiphany! VOTE: Green Crayons

I have my reasons, but I'll never tell...

[Battle Mage]

I'm bored and people love ambitious plays on Day 1, so I'm gonna go with:

Green Crayons, Malakittens, Notscience and HK50 for scum.

[Battle Mage]

OMGUS Malakittens? what is your reaction to my posts?

[Battle Mage]

at this rate I might actually have to explain my vote to get things moving...

[Battle Mage]

I'll catch up later, but for now:

VOTE: HK 50 - biggest wagon and he appears to have a horrible post restriction and needs to be put out of his misery.

[Definition:]

Efficiency: the ratio of the useful work performed by a machine or in a process to the total energy expended or heat taken in.

Known antonyms: Master Battle Mage

Damn robot needs re-programming again.

[Battle Mage]

[Statement:]

The lack of actual discussion is making my circuits moderately irritated. There cannot be ruthless slaughter like this.

VOTE: Dunnstral

Master Battle Mage feel free to explain the basis of your read.

Excellent, I thought you'd never ask!

Green Crayons Notes

He has played extremely safe and cautious, not really going out on a limb on anything, and only really focussing on either highlighting people's towniness, or criticising other's arguments for people's scumminess (which is generally easy for scum to do because they know who is actually scum). In his first 18 posts (all of them prior to my vote) he hadn't indicated suspicion of ANYONE. His only vote was a random vote on Farside - I know it was random because he made it very clear by saying "eenie meanie minie mo". The only other thing of note is that his 4th post was an apology (which incidentally was the thing which pinged me into doing an ISO) for being rude...only he hadn't really been that rude? by the standards of this site, it was about as courteous as a criticism gets. So the apology just seemed a bit OTT and like he was walking on eggshells. No meta yet, but an absence of town enthusiasm or active engagement - more of the commentating from the sidelines style.

[Battle Mage]

OMGUS Malakittens? what is your reaction to my posts?

I’m trying to figure where your head is at with self voting and the woe is me with the other posts. IDK the last set of posts are just coming off strange.

The whole “I’m going to do a guess” doesn’t really strike me as a real case/vote.

Then why don’t you vote me and actually get a case? I’m not scared.

Yeah I can dig that, I'm a strange cat too, just having fun!

My suspicion on you isn't based on much, I was only playin'...but it's a good memory jogger for later so I can go back and see what pinged me if useful, and I like to get stuck in and get some reactions.

Your reaction for instance...is a bit defensive? "vote me and actually get a case? I'm not scared."?

I listed you as an initial speculative solve (and if you paid any heed to my "woe is me" post, you'd recognise that my reads monumentally suck), so I don't know if this is over-keen town ready to do battle, or scum mobilising prematurely? Not sure on that right now...

Hm. I really did just like HK 137. But I want to see how that progresses

That post has a bad gut feeling, but will wait for redemption

[Interrogation:

Master Malakitten, you have made several posts showing a stance without explaining it nor fully committing to it. Please explain your pings. Has the interaction with master bob3141 reached a finite conclusion read wise considering you town ping both of us?

Right now I’m liking bob’s posts. The way he’s going about is very similar to the last game we played together. I’m starting to see you scum hunting while you’re using your gimmick. A lot of players that use gimmicks hide behind it and don’t actually scum hunt. So that give me town pings.

Where as Battle Mange is the post I was referring to that felt a scum ping IMO. That’s way before he even thought I was OMGUSing him.

Battle

Mange

? Ouch! No saucer of milk for you today...

[Battle Mage]

Battle Mage is today's lynch btw everyone

Battle Mage is definitely scum

Well I might be today's lynch, but I'm not scum dude! You selling anything else?

[Battle Mage]

VOTE: Dunnstral

This looks serious...what's the story here?

[Battle Mage]

Just wasted my time looking at a couple Not_Mafia games, Open 779 (scum) and Newbie 1985 (town). Pretty redundant in both, similar posting style and attitude, slightly more trigger happy with the vote as scum but nothing much to get excited about. So could go either way here, and expect more of the same.

In other news, I've decided HK 50 is actually town, and figured out the most likely reason why Green Crayons voted Dunnstral. So that's something!

[Battle Mage]

I am currently a few pages into reading, but would like to make a request. @HK50, I love your posting style -- so nothing against it -- but could you possibly use less sophisticated words to get your points across? I can understand what you are saying if I really spend time looking into your every post, but it is very hard to read some of your posts on the surface.

Another reason I ask this is because using a ton of more complicated words makes it more difficult than normal to read your intentions. This posting style could be extremely effective for scum to hide behind, because it is an easy way for them to blanket their intentions, because a lot more effort is needed than typical to truly assess their motives.

And if you are town, then it should make sense why this could become an issue. Because if people are having to spend too much time looking at a townplayer's posts to unpack their motives, it takes away from their focus of scumhunting, which absolutely could lead us down the wrong path in the long run.

I completely agree with this, his posts are pretty unreadable for me too because of the format. But I also think it's a very conspicuous posting style and a lot of effort for scum to keep up with minimal value, so slight townlean. Like, if scum, why bother?

[Battle Mage]

£3.74 for a cheesecake

excellent, glad to see exchange rates won't be a problem! Please do let me know if you have any other reads or observations at any stage...

[Battle Mage]

So we moved from video game debate to vernacular debate

don't get medical with me!

[Battle Mage]

I am currently a few pages into reading, but would like to make a request. @HK50, I love your posting style -- so nothing against it -- but could you possibly use less sophisticated words to get your points across? I can understand what you are saying if I really spend time looking into your every post, but it is very hard to read some of your posts on the surface.

Another reason I ask this is because using a ton of more complicated words makes it more difficult than normal to read your intentions. This posting style could be extremely effective for scum to hide behind, because it is an easy way for them to blanket their intentions, because a lot more effort is needed than typical to truly assess their motives.

And if you are town, then it should make sense why this could become an issue. Because if people are having to spend too much time looking at a townplayer's posts to unpack their motives, it takes away from their focus of scumhunting, which absolutely could lead us down the wrong path in the long run.

I completely agree with this, his posts are pretty unreadable for me too because of the format. But I also think it's a very conspicuous posting style and a lot of effort for scum to keep up with minimal value, so slight townlean. Like, if scum, why bother?

I can understand why you might gather a townlean from it, but at least for me I cannot say that it gives me any direction on his alignment. If someone reads a lot, using more difficult words can come naturally to them. In fact, I have played a game where I used a lot more sophisticated words than usual as mafia before, so knowing that I have done it as scum and it took very little effort for me means that I must be cautious if I see someone else doing it.

In the game where I was scum, I can cite some of the words that I used in one single analysis post during that game: exasperation, unfounded, prognostication, aforementioned, reinforces, ulterior, disconcerted, reiterating, conducive, bolsters, precedence.

There were more words, but you probably should get my point by now that if someone knows a lot of words, it could take very little effort to use more complicated words regardless of alignment. Town naturally should have more of a motive to make things easy-to-read for their fellow town members, so they should avoid using a bunch of difficult words.

That's interesting, and I definitely sympathise with it. The only area I seem to have any success scumhunting at the moment is looking at word choices - I won't share my favourite tell yet, although avid fans of mine will already know.

My issue on readability isn't the word choices, but the way the posts are broken up, which just makes it hard work and effort to read and digest. Maybe you're right it isn't much effort to post, and it's a good way to conceal things,

but

it's also a good way to stand out as being different, and generally scum prefer to lurk in the shadows.

[Battle Mage]

Hm. I really did just like HK 137. But I want to see how that progresses

That post has a bad gut feeling, but will wait for redemption

[Interrogation:

Master Malakitten, you have made several posts showing a stance without explaining it nor fully committing to it. Please explain your pings. Has the interaction with master bob3141 reached a finite conclusion read wise considering you town ping both of us?

Right now I’m liking bob’s posts. The way he’s going about is very similar to the last game we played together. I’m starting to see you scum hunting while you’re using your gimmick. A lot of players that use gimmicks hide behind it and don’t actually scum hunt. So that give me town pings.

Where as Battle Mange is the post I was referring to that felt a scum ping IMO. That’s way before he even thought I was OMGUSing him.

[Rebuttal:]

I can understand the town pings, but do you also have knowledge of scum!bob3141?

I understand the context of the master battle mage ping. I'm asking you to explain what in the original post sticks out as scummy in your eyes.

I have not personally seen scum bob, have you?

I guess looking back on BM posts it looks like he was kidding at the end, but it feels weird to just jump onto a big wagon when we aren’t in RVS. It just felt ~weird~ and then coupled by the rest of his posts I have no clue what to do with him. It’s just he’s all over the place, but he isn’t a new player so that excuse is not valid.

I'd been V/LA since the start, I'm entitled to an RVS on my own!

[Battle Mage]

Votato votes are lazy. I bet one of y'all are scum.

Challenge accepted!

VOTE: Votato

I like the meta analysis by stungun, clearly nobody is getting behind Green Crayons, and I think I'm townleaning Dunnstral. And seriously, voting BM on Day 1? This dude has run out of ideas...

[Battle Mage]

^^^ I don't see how that makes farside town. It does strengthen Dunn being scum.

I felt the way I felt. I can't help my pings on players.

There should be more votes on Dunn too with your follow up spoilers post.


@NS: Who else are you suspicious of? I see a lot of filler coming from you but nothing stating a scum read. Or even following of anyone.
BM: Hey BM, how are you? Taking some lumps I see......would you mind voting Dunn and we can chat later about if you are scum or town and about play style later?
Thanks!!

Yep yep, usual fare!

I'm not so keen on Dunn
Maybe he's just not scum
Annie did tell me so
and scum is votato



I'm worried about this "play style" chat...are you gonna bash me too?

[Battle Mage]

I don't want you to apologize, I want you to die

This is the only Dunnstral post that really townpings me, although his general tone is definitely one of not giving a crap and being abrasive which is more common in town than scum I think. Should be easy to meta later when I have more time.

[Battle Mage]

@Votato:

are you a pathetic ass scum?

A little harsh, but I did employ some artistic licence

On serious note, Green Crayons queuing up Votato for some dodgy self-meta; 2 scum down?

[Battle Mage]

Just noting that the vote on Votato is now L-2.

Be careful adding another vote, because votato could self-hammer, or someone else could before we get the chance to hear back from Votato, ending the day phase sooner than preferable.

why in God's name would votato self-hammer? I still like you though <3

[Battle Mage]

well im definitely not gonna self-hammer. im not that worried tbh. look at BM's vote on me. its not like this is a super duper serious wagon.

you're definitely safer with me on the wagon, I'm the "lolhammer" machine.

[Battle Mage]

re: 353 - you're definitely clutching at straws now dude.... there are some good reasons for lazyscum to vote me out there, but that?

[Battle Mage]

It’s apparently par for the course for him so

yeah thats the other thing. who has played with gerain? can we get some confirmation on that claim? i still wanna pressure him because thats a really bad habit. but im pretty happy with my vote on BM

No towncred from me for playing to your anti-BM meta.

[Battle Mage]

re: 353 - you're definitely clutching at straws now dude.... there are some good reasons for lazyscum to vote me out there, but that?

you say "im not keen on the dunn wagon, so im not gonna vote there"
and then "i have no real reason to think dunn is town"

yep, I can help you here:

1. I have 1 reason to think Dunn is town, and 0 reason to think Dunn is scum, therefore I townlean Dunn.
2. There is no 2.

[Battle Mage]

^^^ I don't see how that makes farside town. It does strengthen Dunn being scum.

I felt the way I felt. I can't help my pings on players.

There should be more votes on Dunn too with your follow up spoilers post.


@NS: Who else are you suspicious of? I see a lot of filler coming from you but nothing stating a scum read. Or even following of anyone.
BM: Hey BM, how are you? Taking some lumps I see......would you mind voting Dunn and we can chat later about if you are scum or town and about play style later?
Thanks!!

Yep yep, usual fare!

I'm not so keen on Dunn
Maybe he's just not scum
Annie did tell me so
and scum is votato



I'm worried about this "play style" chat...are you gonna bash me too?

Not a fun that 1 comment = town compared to his now lurking while votato takes pressure.

Your making me a sad puppy right now bm.

I'm sorry

I'll tell you what, if you join me in a righteous Green Crayons lynch today, we can lynch Dunnstral tomorrow. Pinky promise!

[Battle Mage]

genuinely read that as "a tad more orgasmic"...I need to take a break.

[Battle Mage]

I saw battle mage playing similar to this as town.

And I saw Dunnstral playing completely different to this as scum.

[Battle Mage]

i have a little but i cant talk about it. by day 2 or 3 ill probably give some more details. as for the association you're drawing between me and dunn, stun, you're right that we aren't scumbuddies, but i dont think your reasons why are all that strong. plus the only reason you know that is cuz you and i are scumbuddies.

shit wrong thread.

Last time I saw something like this it flipped town, but what can ya do!?

[Battle Mage]

Does anyone have experience with scum Dunnstral? I have only played with town Dunnstral as scum to my recollection (2 times).

I know that as town he is not the hardest player to sort, but he still is a little bit tricky. He is easier to sort than nm for sure.

Also, he might get easier by the day, but he also might not. So I am not totally against a lynch there, but would just prefer to keep him in for two reasons. One is he is one of the few players I have experience with, so I might be able to read him better as the game progresses. And two, I do not really find what he has done so far to be super scummy, and if anything the push against him gives me a slight intuition he might be town. I could be wrong there, and I would like to see him post more, but I am not super suspicious.

I do think it is very likely, however, that if one Votato/Dunn is scum, the other is not, and should be assumed to be town. I just don't see them as connected, as votato has made very little mention of Dunn in his posts and Dunn throwing votato out of the blue as a scum partner to someone... wouldn't seem like the smartest plan if they were scum partners? I mean, that's a little bold, drawing that much attention to you

and

your partner?

I've seen scum-Dunnstral once. He tried harder than this and seemed more engaged in a game where he replaced in maybe 60 pages deep - definitely feels town here. Agree with top half of your post, last para doesn't sound right to me. In my recent experience, scum often make little mention of their buddies to avoid associations being drawn. But lynching Vot-scum first is the play, and then decide whether to bite for his stungun 'slip'. Gut says probably not.

[Battle Mage]

jesus… do I even have to respond to Green Crayons 'case' on me?

It's been repeated ad nauseum (because GC apparently thinks he can get away with plugging something as weak as this instead of actually scumhunting).

His vote on votato looks made up.

First, his vote:

Votato votes are lazy. I bet one of y'all are scum.

Challenge accepted!

VOTE: Votato

I like the meta analysis by stungun

, clearly nobody is getting behind Green Crayons, and I think I'm townleaning Dunnstral. And seriously, voting BM on Day 1? This dude has run out of ideas...

He reads votato as scum only because of your meta analysis. But your meta analysis specifically said it was a wash on alignment, and so wasn't AI:

The fact Stungun doesn't think it's AI, doesn't mean I don't think it's AI. I believe I said, as above, "I like the analysis", as opposed to "I agree with the analysis in it's entirety and share Stungun's resulting conclusion". I did in fact think it was AI, and voted for that reason.

I think if you were town you would have thought about this for more than 5 seconds, and tried asking me why I felt it was AI? Rather than just pretending I didn't, and am a complete imbecile (which incidentally would have been NAI anyway for me ).

Also took a weird stance on BM that his vote on Votato "looked made up" in 421, which does not exactly seem like the best reason to vote BM if you ask me. Also, I do not know if it is a natural town instinct to come to a conclusion that a vote "is made up", just seems like a forced scum conclusion, but maybe I am wrong there.

Maybe if you look harder, you'll see I've been suspecting Battle Mage for a while.

Maybe if you look *even harder*, you'll see why.

And lol @ my justification for voting BM apparently went completely over your head in your pursuit to vote me.

I think this is important, btw.

BM switched to votato. His only reason for suspecting votato as scum is because of stun's meta analysis of votato.

The problem is that stun's meta analysis--by stun's own explanation!--is that it doesn't show that votato is scum. It just shows that he is not town.

I've answered this above - clearly I thought the analysis of Stun was helpful, but didn't agree with the conclusion. And it doesn't seem like you've been suspecting me for a while at all - you voted for me because I voted for you right?
I'm pretty sure someone of your experience didn't actually buy your own case.

He seems mildly town.

Let’s focus on BM.

Who doesn’t have a legitimate scum read on votato—BM voted because of stun’s meta analysis that stun said was not AI—but BM voted votato anyway.

Red light scum alert.

Again!? Beating a dead horse here pal. I suppose you wouldn't know if my scumread was legitimate or not, because you haven't bothered to ask me or probe my explanation, you've just set up an implausible strawman.

Even if you were right, I'm not really clear why you think being an idiot would make me scum - inability to read is not something I normally consider AI in and of itself.

VOTE: GreenCrayons (in case I wasn't already)

[Battle Mage]

I'll catch up on the rest later, but I'm pretty sure I can lynch here today.

[Battle Mage]

The fact Stungun doesn't think it's AI, doesn't mean I don't think it's AI. I believe I said, as above, "I like the analysis", as opposed to "I agree with the analysis in it's entirety and share Stungun's resulting conclusion". I did in fact think it was AI, and voted for that reason.

Why is it AI?

I'll answer that when I've caught up. In the meantime, how about explaining why you didn't ask that question to begin with, or at any point while I wasn't here? Ya know, like somebody would if they were actually sorting, as opposed to just trying to stitch someone up with an ill-conceived case.

[Battle Mage]

Yeah, that's strange, I'm ngl... I will need explanation for that.

my pizza had just turned up and I wanted to watch the football while I ate.

Poor old GC, clutching at straws a bit. If the posting slows a little bit, I'll catch up on some stuff shortly - there's a lot to catch up on across all my games so I'm not promising to respond to everything tonight.

[Battle Mage]

I timed out trying to catch up on other games, will return tomorrow.

[Battle Mage]

sorry folks, I'm not gonna have as much free time as I thought when I signed up to this, so will have to

request replacement

Hope to see you all in the mountains!

[Battle Mage]

You were town in this game and were very active at the start (22 posts on the first day and then a big analysis immediately starting the next day), which contradicts the activity argument.
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p11763957

And so did the newbie 2006 game you cited, you had 12 posts on the first day the game was available.
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p11902283

This game, you had 3 posts and then disappeared for about 3 days, until a wagon formed on you.

While you may be fairly active in some of your scum games, this evidence does not suggest that in your town games you are always lurking at the start. Thus, I don't think this initial analysis into your gameplay is very alignment-indicative, as it seems you are breaking pattern regardless of alignment.

As I haven't actually been replaced yet, assume I can still respond? Just to save my successor getting loads of abuse over nothing, as it really isn't that important.

Stungun's analysis above. Uses 3 games to demonstrate that Votato is active on Day 1 as town, and not active here, suggesting it

IS

AI.

She then vaguely points to unreferenced games noting he "

may

be fairly active in some of your scum games", which obviously carries less weight. I haven't seen these scum games, so on basis of Stungun's actual meta analysis (the referenced games), I concluded the activity level of Votato could be scum indicative.

Although worth noting:

A. That wasn't the only reason for my vote - just one that GC has tried to strawman and attack me for.
B. It was an early Day 1 wagon vote, so with respect, it wasn't based on loads of robust evidence - you've seen me play before right?

I'm replacing out because I don't have time to do the analysis on this game I'd like to, and me not being able to keep up will suck for everyone.

Seriously, lynch Green Crayons though.

[Battle Mage]

incredible effort by Bob and Doctor pepper - well played!!