Mini Normal 2149 | Philosophers | Over

[Blair]

*kicks down door*

Now this is a player list!

[Blair]

I'll try to get caught up tonight. Feel free to post any questions you have for me and I'll answer them then.

[Blair]

*kicks down door*

Now this is a player list!

Did you think you were replacing into a Town slot or a Scum slot?

This one I can answer now, actually.

I offered to sub for this game when Rozyroz needed a replacement, and suspected that might be a scum slot.

It was already filled ahead of me, so I was the first in this game's replacement queue. I had no idea what slot I would get.

[Blair]

*kicks down door*

Now this is a player list!

Which of the players are inciting this reaction from you?

I have played with all of these players before:

Nauci
GuiltyLion
mavsfan41
Cat Scratch Fever
LicketyQuickety
Looker

[Blair]

I shall do my level best to rise to that bar.

[Blair]

Because the last time I saw Rozyroz flake out of a game they were scum.

[Blair]

Also

UNVOTE:

[Blair]

Starting my catch up momentarily.

Whoever is around right now: I was considering making a drinking game of every time someone posted something completely insane. Quick question - if I do this, will I die?

[Blair]

Pages 1-4

8 - *drink*
15 - Miller Mason? Gross. Also *drink*
21 - Survey Says: Yes
28 - ... What? *drink*
37 - This explanation helped a lot, actually.
40 - *frantic rummaging sound in liquor cabinet*
44 - When did Truth claim to be following an honesty gimmick? And what does that have to do with crumbing mason buddies? *drink*
46 - Nauci
51 - Good take from osuka
53 - Good take from popo
56 - What? I feel like there was a logical step here that was left out. *drink*
70 - Good post; bad vote
76 - *drink*
78 - Good post from Norwe
79 - More Norwe goodness
81 - I really hate this post *drink* but it's the kind of hate I usually feel for town!Quick so NAI I guess
95 - Kind of rings townie here

I can sort of tell where this is going already...

[Blair]

osuka likes to post a lot of times close to each other. Is doing this instead of putting thoughts into one part a mafia tactic? It makes it look like he has a bigger presence or is more involved than he actually is. It gave me that impression too until I realised that it can be manipulated

Do people look at number of posts to see if someone is likely to be town or mafia?

Lots of people on this site post multiple times in a row. It's a result of being unable to edit your posts. It isn't alignment indicative.

It seems unusual to a lot of players from other forums because most (not primarily mafia) forums have rules against it to prevent thread spamming.

[Blair]

*drink*

[Blair]

Ok, the post number format wasn't really working for me on mobile so I tried spoilering a multi-quote instead but apparently nested spoilers are broken and I had to scrap four pages of commentary because the post would have been nine miles long without spoilering it.

Just gonna read for now.

[Blair]

I was town last time shhhhh

[Blair]

VOTE: Cat Scratch Fever

Sorry you rolled scum twice in a row, CSF.

[Blair]

CSF's ISO is full of:

A. Safe pushes

B. Clarifying questions

C. Mediation of misunderstandings

These are all things I reliably do as scum when I want to coast, and CSF and I just completed a scum game together so the mind-meld makes sense.

[Blair]

I could potentially see NDMath as scum. 986 is particularly egregious.

Nauci could also be scum, but I feel like I need more from her to sort her.

Looker is prob-town

osuka is prob-town

Truth is newb-town

Norwe is prob-town

Popo is town-lean but again I need more from this slot to sort

Glitch could go either way

Quick is prob-town

GuiltyLion I could go either way

Mavsfan I definitely need more from to sort

I think that's everyone? If I missed someone they're null because I forgot about them entirely.

[Blair]

I actually like CSF vs NDMath for today, so if anyone wants to help me make CSF a top-two wagon that'd be swell!

Sheep me!

[Blair]

Negging doesn't work on me.

[Blair]

Hello!

Sorry about your scum role pm.

[Blair]

Getting traction on Glitch is a lot harder than I thought it would be. Especially considering very few(?) people are actually TRing them. Resistance probably means they have a better shot at being Scum.

Isn't this true of pretty much all the vanity wagons right now?

[Blair]

Getting traction on Glitch is a lot harder than I thought it would be. Especially considering very few(?) people are actually TRing them. Resistance probably means they have a better shot at being Scum.

Isn't this true of pretty much all the vanity wagons right now?

No. 4 people are voting for ND for shit reasons IMO.

What does "4 people are voting ND for shit reasons" have to do with my question?

I asked you if all the vanity wagons were struggling to get traction despite very few people town reading them (not just yours on Glitch) and you responded about a L-3 wagon (if that qualifies as a vanity wagon then all wagons are vanity wagons).

[Blair]

Ah, so you were just answering a completely unrelated question I never asked, while completely disregarding what I asked, and now you're implying I'm dense for not reading your mind and anticipating that?

Got it. So it's going to be one of those games again.

[Blair]

"Quick, how's the weather where you live?"

"No, I don't want to move to Botswana."

"...Huh?"

"Try to keep up Blair, good lord."

[Blair]

Ah, so you were just answering a completely unrelated question I never asked, while completely disregarding what I asked, and now you're implying I'm dense for not reading your mind and anticipating that?

Got it. So it's going to be one of those games again.

But are you Town?

I'm always town. Even when I'm scum I'm town.

[Blair]

So Quick are you town reading CSF or just whinging about everyone who votes for her?

[Blair]

Mediation isn't inherently scummy (almost nothing is), but it's easy to coast on because you will get town points for doing it 99.5% of the time.

As for your scum meta, I actually thought your early posts were strikingly similar to your posts in our scum game together (and Glitch is not actually wrong that your tone did shift at a certain point) - enough so that I was actually scumreading you when I was skimming the game the first time I tried to sub in for Rozyroz.

I'm interested to hear why you feel you are playing differently here than in our last game together.

[Blair]

How many pages where there at the time of the first replace out?

CSF was the first sub.

There were only two subs total in that game, by the way.

Not sure where you're going with it, though.

[Blair]

How many pages where there at the time of the first replace out?

CSF was the first sub.

There were only two subs total in that game, by the way.

Not sure where you're going with it, though.

There was 18. I checked.

Cat Scratch Fever and Beeboy were the only subs. You checked the wrong game.

Pretty sure you're referencing an ongoing game.

[Blair]

So you understand you ducked into a conversation about CSF's last scum game and asked a leading question about this game instead, with no indication that you were changing the subject, yeah?

[Blair]

If osuka is scum we should lynch him tomorrow, I enjoy his posts.

[Blair]

Actually I lied

The game I was thinking of was https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=73011

Better logic than me: denied.

Because you’re clearly the benchmark for logic in this website

You call that a comeback? It lacks creativity and doesn't impress with Nauci's version C of my play. Try again and this time try and actually put some effort into it?

This entire back and forth is unrelated to game solving.

I will accept my Townpoints™ for pointing this out via direct deposit into my Blair Bucks™ account, please.

[Blair]

Why do you think osuka is town? What do you think of Nauci's meta-case on him?

Osuka is getting sucked into the same slap fights I would have probably been sucked into myself if I had subbed in earlier. The optics for these are pretty terrible all around, and I would expect scum to be self conscious enough to know that and take the high ground for town points instead.

I actually like CSF vs NDMath for today, so if anyone wants to help me make CSF a top-two wagon that'd be swell!

Sheep me!

Now that I think ND is town, I really don't like this post. It was also premature to be deciding which wagons we were going to end the day with considering Blair only replaced into the game like less than 24 hrs and hadn't had time to interact with me or ND afaict

Hmm

Now that I think ND is town, I really don't like this post.

What did the modifier, "Now that I think ND is town," add to the logic of this progression?

(Let's not even touch on the absurdity of the idea that there is some sort of mandatory waiting period after a sub joins a game before they are allowed to advocate a dichotomy)

[Blair]

Why is everyone so damn weak with their analysis/saying basic shit/asking for Town credit when Town credit isn't due?

It is estimated that roughly 30% of the population cannot reliably discern humor or sarcasm.

[Blair]

What did the modifier, "Now that I think ND is town," add to the logic of this progression?

It looks like you're corralling two Town wagons

Ah, so that post is only scummy if both ND and CSF are town?

Given that it is Day 1 and we have zero flips in the game so far, wouldn't that make it objectively null?

[Blair]

It is amazing to me how you are claiming you detected it while simultaneously claiming that I was actually expecting town points for it.

[Blair]

The lamer (but also most obvious!) option, yes.

No way scum!Quick picks this monumentally stupid ego hill to die on with a townie, so I will share some more of my town points with you today.

[Blair]

Sometimes the riposte is just too easy. I'm going to let this one go.

[Blair]

What did the modifier, "Now that I think ND is town," add to the logic of this progression?

It looks like you're corralling two Town wagons

Ah, so that post is only scummy if both ND and CSF are town?

Given that it is Day 1 and we have zero flips in the game so far, wouldn't that make it objectively null?

no? there were many people in your readslist you had at null and below - why did you want wagons to form on us two specifically when we have several days left on the clock?

I know how long it usually takes to slog through a Day 1 wagon if it's actually on scum - we are at the point in the time line when we need to narrow down our options.

"There's still time!" is a favorite shield for scum, because so many townies actually believe it's anti-town to not use every last ounce of the deadline.

[Blair]

You only believe that because I rushed to form them on you and someone you're suddenly townreading. (Your words, not mine)

[Blair]

Link to Nauci's meta case, please. (Or was that it?)

[Blair]

You only believe that because I rushed to form them on you and someone you're suddenly townreading. (Your words, not mine)

I mean, true it's something I thought was suspicious only after I thought NDMath was towny, but there's scum motivation in building competing wagons on town

And there's town motivation in building competing wagons on scum.

So without outside knowledge, it's just sort of... nothing.

[Blair]

If you are town, you will never, ever believe any case against you is strong, so that isn't a reliable metric for whether or not my reads are genuine.

If you are scum, you will always believe you are playing differently from your scum game - otherwise you are intentionally playing badly.

[Blair]

Yes, officer, this post right here.

[Blair]

But Norwe if we don't use every last second of our deadline the lynch will effectively be a coin flip you anti town buffoon

[Blair]

1200+ posts isn't nearly enough to have any opinions or narrow our PoE at all, every lynch is still equally up for consideration and any attempts to consolidate wagons will be prosecuted with extreme prejudice

[Blair]

I don't explicitly townread CSF as strongly as my other townreads. So i don't think a push there would be bad, but i'd much rather just keep wagoning NDMath for now.

Actually Blair, unless you plan to case CSF hard and get a lot of people on your side, i'd much prefer it if you joined the NDMath wagon since it's got more votes and game needs a lynch right now. I sense apathy with the lack of posting lately.

Why you gotta be white knighting the scum Quick.

This is the first I have heard you think I am Scum. Mind fleshing that out a bit?

No. I don’t think you’re scun. I’m asking why you, are white knighting scum!NDMath.

I’m not sure i’m feeling either a Glitch or CSF lynch today, but i could definitely go for either NDMath or Osuka.

VOTE: osuka

I think I prefer this over Glitch, who I'm not sure isn't just new town who scumreads people for not explaining reads.

Mainly sheeping Nauci's metacase tbh. I also think him forgetting to use his vote is scum indicative

You convinced me.
VOTE: Osuka

Can you talk to me a bit about why you switched from NDMath to osuka here?

[Blair]

I think you will find it difficult to demonstrate from my ISO that I am advocating for shortening the day.

I am advocating for narrowing our lynch pool and rolling our sleeves up to get serious about who we are going to lynch today, because these things take time and it's usually good practice for town to have a pretty good idea of who the lynch will be between by this point in the day.

[Blair]

I've been up for 46 hours straight now so can I be lazy and just sheep Blair/GuiltyLion/NBEE

just tell me where to vote

Please be advised we are wagoning CSF, NDMath, and Osuka.

The Osuka wagon kind of feels like it came out of nowhere to become a front runner to me.

[Blair]

Quick, if you want more quality content before the phase ends, start producing it. All of your recent posts have been petty barbs, not game solving - maybe that's why the game feels stalled.

[Blair]

Can you talk to me a bit about why you switched from NDMath to osuka here?

This post: 1144.
Also i didn't like Osuka's post: 1086

What didn't you like about 1086?

[Blair]

I didn't say I wanted to end the day. In fact, I pretty clearly stated I wasn't saying that.

Time to admit you just don't like me and bitching at me every time I post is just therapeutic or something.

[Blair]

Can you talk to me a bit about why you switched from NDMath to osuka here?

This post: 1144.
Also i didn't like Osuka's post: 1086

What didn't you like about 1086?

I thought there was nothing weird about my post, so i didn't understand why he'd bring up it as an "odd" post. I also wish he'd elaborate why he said it now that i think about it.

I agree he should explain.

In the meantime, isn't it more likely that he saw something he thought was odd that you didn't, than that he is scum calling something odd that wasn't?

[Blair]

I didn't say I wanted to end the day. In fact, I pretty clearly stated I wasn't saying that.

Time to admit you just don't like me and bitching at me every time I post is just therapeutic or something.

You suggest a consolidation of wagons. For what reason would you suggest this if it doesn't end the Day faster?

As I have already explained, because if we don't start narrowing things down soon we'll end up rushing to piecemeal a hammer together from a full-playerlist-lynchpool 8 hours before the deadline.

[Blair]

I am having a hard time buying the idea that Quick, a player who hails from a site where many games have 48 hour day phases, is suddenly scandalized by the thought of narrowing our PoE 8 days after Day Start anyway.

[Blair]

What makes you think I care if you vote me right now?

Stop trying to start a flame war. Anyone who believes I haven't responded to what you're saying only needs to scroll up. I have been abundantly clear that I think the osuka wagon is on town and spooled up suspiciously quickly, the NDMath wagon is reasonable, and CSF is likely scum.

Norwe I still lean town on, but his role in the osuka wagon gives me pause.

Quick is probably town but definitely not playing to his win condition at the moment, he has some axe to grind and that's fine but I'm done with him until something relevant comes up because his replies to me are 10% content 90% personal attacks. And that's being generous.

[Blair]

Spoiler: GuiltyLion Votes For Osuka

-You could want to stick with me and see if a popopopopopopopopop mislynch could go through without you, in which case a) GL looks bad and b) you can then play the 'I told you so, GL is scum!!' card on D2

Nah, i would just nightkill you buddy.

this post is weird, not to mention the fact that nking guilty in that scenario might be a bad idea to begin with

im not sure how i feel about glitch. looker has barely posted so i dont have a read there either

glitch in particular has posts that don't really ping me either way, but i should iso that slot and delve in a little deeper sometime soon

nauci might be scum and couldve been trying to pocket me or something, but now that ive voiced that thought she should give up on that front. doesn't mean she's not scum though

not quite sure how i feel about lion and popopopopoopopoopopppop. it's definitely not svs, maybe tvt (unlikely?) but probably tvs. not sure who the scum there is, though. lion has some slightly scummy vibes if we're talking strictly meta, but i'm not too sure there either

both these posts are really waffley and don't take any stances on anything. There's also more problems with later posts which I'll get to in a second

he doesnt usually play this defensively when hes town from what i can tell. he seems to be very obviously uncomfortable, which is a tell of scum gl

this struck me as especially fake

first, I've only played one game with osuka before several years ago, so he's not speaking from personal experience here

second, I am well known for overreacting to votes/scumreads on me as town. I don't know where the "obviously uncomfortable" thing comes from at all - my problems with being scum have to do with keeping up and generating a

quantity

of content, it's not a

quality

of content problem. I've played 60-70+ games on site, have been around for years, I'm not someone who's "obviously uncomfortable" when I'm scum. Just less engaged than I am as town.

I think you're just making shit up, osuka. Unless you wanna link me to games you reviewed to come to this conclusion.

VOTE: osuka

Spoiler: GuiltyLion Immediately Spends a Bunch of Posts Pushing NDMath Instead of Osuka

If NDmath doesn’t post anything good soon i wouldn’t mind voting there tbh.

Agreed.

+1 on this too

I don't buy you thought that it was very scummy unless you can be more specific as to why.

alright, if you ask for it I will indulge!

first things first, I didn't like opening with the "let's see if I can remember why I quoted these posts!", feels really performative and buddying up to the thread. feels like you're mindful of how people are going to perceive your entry

next, a number of your questions are useless, they don't need to be answered and I don't see how they will generate useful content. Often because there's more content later that makes the answers to the questions irrelevant, or because they're just kinda empty things to discuss. It seems pretty clear that Quick thought at least the 'hood' aspect of Truth's claim was legitimate. CSF has posted a bunch of content to work with, who cares about "avoiding" RVS? Do you really think that's the most indicative thing you could comment on in the first 150 posts, or even the most indicative thing about CSF's play in the game?

You also make a number of really hedgey or pointless comments. "Usually pushing for NL comes from scum" (hard disagree btw), "but here it's probably closer to null". Okay? Do you scumread Candy Shop or not? "I find this a likely town mindset though not necessarily townie". What? What's the point of that comment at all?

Next, you just voted/unvoted and peaced out. I think town should be at least putting a vote down in that situation to advance the game, even if they're not fully caught up yet. you STILL haven't voted. What are you doing to actually help catch/kill scum? How does town benefit at all from your presence in the game if you're not participating in any wagons?

Finally, adding your next post into the mix, it's not really clear to me

at all

why you have any of the reads that you do. Your reads list has most of the players in the game in ambiguous nully tiers with no explanation given as to how they got to be there or where you'd feel comfortable voting. Why am I lower than Candyshop, who is lower than everyone else in the game? Do you think I'm more likely scum? If both myself and Candyshop were at L-1 and you were holding the hammer, you'd vote me over Candy Shop - why? Why are Glitch/Nauci below the four players above them? Would you vote to lynch either of those slots today?

None of it is content that is useful to me to help understand your thought process or suggests that you're taking initiative to solve the game for your benefit or anyone else's. It all feels very timid and blendy, like you're just posting a formulaic template of what you think town posts are supposed to look like.

so I just tried to casually skim through NDMath town/scum to see if he always plays this poorly and it looks like this dude has never been scum yet on MS lmao

however, in his completed town games, he's definitely more goal-oriented in terms of votes/pressure and shows the ability to make insightful analysis, compared to what he's offered so far here.

So I think he's a great bet for scum and D1 lynch

osuka dialing back me, on first take I can kinda see it being town, but I don't like how he didn't really address where the meta point originally came from and I don't like the subtle redirect to Nauci who had started the wagon on him. I also just don't find Nauci's game all that scummy I think she's pretty likely town and a bad vote for today.

I agree with Quick that optimal mafia play is moreso about pushing mislynches than looking town, but I think the argument kinda quickly derailed from the original point about whether Nauci's play serves a scum agenda or not. The reason I think it's town-indicative that she defused the Osuka/Quick argument is because if she is scum then she's removing distractions or potential footholds to vote/engage at no benefit to herself. I don't agree that she gets any real "towncred" from that, as evidenced by the fact that many players are still throwing around the idea of voting her.

Glitch actually felt more townie to me in his most recent post than any of his past ones, he's not a bonafide townread yet and I don't think I'd cry if he got lynched but I'm more interested in osuka/NDMath slots first.

basically, if you wanna talk slots that are trying to look town for the sake of looking town vs trying to solve, reread what I pointed out about NDMath's posts. They're all fluff, there's nothing that actually leads to development of reads and there's no discernible thought process that indicates that he's trying to solve.

He's misinterpreting norwee's post in a way that's missing what's intended to be a humorous statement and instead interpreting it as norwee scumreading him. I found more of norwee's points valid and their tone townie.

This doesn't feel like honest analysis to me. Let's rewind and look at the Norway post that you say is "intended to be a humorous statement" -

GuiltyLion, can you please come in and obvtown it up soon. Your RVS entrance coupled with disappearing hasn’t exactly filled me to the brin with confidence regarding your slot.

what do you see as the humor in this post? This to me felt like a really bogus shade and I kinda took it personally, my RVS was completely NAI and I 'disappeared' because I had other stuff I wanted to do away from the site. I honestly hate coming to threads and seeing people talk about how scummy I am solely because I'm not available to post at all times, it gets under my skin. So what did I misinterpret here, exactly?

alright, if you ask for it I will indulge!

1. first things first, I didn't like opening with the "let's see if I can remember why I quoted these posts!", feels really performative and buddying up to the thread. feels like you're mindful of how people are going to perceive your entry

2. next, a number of your questions are useless, they don't need to be answered and I don't see how they will generate useful content. Often because there's more content later that makes the answers to the questions irrelevant, or because they're just kinda empty things to discuss. It seems pretty clear that Quick thought at least the 'hood' aspect of Truth's claim was legitimate. CSF has posted a bunch of content to work with, who cares about "avoiding" RVS? Do you really think that's the most indicative thing you could comment on in the first 150 posts, or even the most indicative thing about CSF's play in the game?

3. You also make a number of really hedgey or pointless comments. "Usually pushing for NL comes from scum" (hard disagree btw), "but here it's probably closer to null". Okay? Do you scumread Candy Shop or not? "I find this a likely town mindset though not necessarily townie". What? What's the point of that comment at all?

4. Next, you just voted/unvoted and peaced out. I think town should be at least putting a vote down in that situation to advance the game, even if they're not fully caught up yet. you STILL haven't voted. What are you doing to actually help catch/kill scum? How does town benefit at all from your presence in the game if you're not participating in any wagons?

5. Finally, adding your next post into the mix, it's not really clear to me

at all

why you have any of the reads that you do. Your reads list has most of the players in the game in ambiguous nully tiers with no explanation given as to how they got to be there or where you'd feel comfortable voting. Why am I lower than Candyshop, who is lower than everyone else in the game? Do you think I'm more likely scum? If both myself and Candyshop were at L-1 and you were holding the hammer, you'd vote me over Candy Shop - why? Why are Glitch/Nauci below the four players above them? Would you vote to lynch either of those slots today?

6. None of it is content that is useful to me to help understand your thought process or suggests that you're taking initiative to solve the game for your benefit or anyone else's. It all feels very timid and blendy, like you're just posting a formulaic template of what you think town posts are supposed to look like.

(Numbers Inserted)
1. I am a very self-conscious player. So yes I care how people perceive my entry.
2. Funny enough, both examples you cite are actually looker's words due to it spoilering weirdly.

@Looker

3. Pushing for NL coming from scum is from personal experience it has come from scum more times than town. At the moment in time I wasn't sure, as of completing the catchup I scumread the slot. The comment on tstbs meant that I felt quick's mindset was that of a townie, but I believed it was probably something that mafia could/would fake. I decided to keep it I guess?
4. Voting was accidental due to looker's post quoting weird. I didn't see value in voting at that point in time. I don't get why I can't be not voting in peace when it's still early in the dayphase and I'm not one to case early on. I'm helping just as much without voting in that you got the impression that if I did vote it would be for you and received the same amount of pressure from it, I don't get that point at all.
5. The purpose of the readlist was to summarize the catchup and fill in what wasn't said in terms of reads. I'm more willing to hang the further down the list, and I tend to be a more defensive player in that I prefer not having my townreads hung to getting my scumreads hung.
6. I'm not comprehending this paragraph.

2 and first part of 4 - my bad, these are bad mistakes on my part, fair enough.

second half of 4 - I fundamentally disagree with this though. You're not creating the same amount of pressure, you're shirking the responsibility of putting your money where your mouth is. And you're not putting pressure on other players too! if I hit L-1 that becomes a more difficult game state for scum off the wagon, because now my claim or lynch is potentially imminent and they gotta either explain why they're okay with the situation

or

start defending me. If they don't comment on an L-1 wagon at all it looks really bad on them both at the time and in later days. This doesn't really apply the same way as the wagon has fewer and fewer votes, lots of players can get away with ignoring an L-3 or an L-4 wagon.

5 - I think you kinda missed my point here. I'm not so much questioning the purpose of a reads list in general, I'm more specifically questioning why your tiers exist, they feel arbitrary. Let's just zoom in on Candy Shop for a single example - it's baffling to me that he somehow exists in between Glitch/Nauci and myself. Presumably, all of us are scumreads to you in some form or the other. How and why did you decide to put him in a tier of his own? Why not just have him on my tier, or the tier above? What meaning were you trying to convey by separating the four of us into three tiers like that?

6 - I feel it's kinda clear? None of your post by post comments lead me to understand how you then created that readslist. Largely because of my issues in point 5, I can't trace a clear train of thought from "here's my thoughts as I'm reading the game" -> "here's how my reads got to be where they are".

From context of this post and that they're my most recent games, I'm assuming the games you Iso'd my slot were open777 and largenomal227.
In open 777 I wasn't 'townie' and 'insightful' until day 2. Day 1 I was scumread by many players and my reads were very omgussy.
In largenormal227 I layed low and didn't do much until I lead massclaim. I definitely wasn't very goal oriented in this game.
Also, I would love to point out the use of 'so far here' as opposed to presumably looking at most of the game in the other games.

I'm not sure why this counts as a defense? Aren't you saying basically that as town you don't start trying until later, and you haven't tried yet here? How is that different from a scum game where you don't try?

and I definitely think you were more goal oriented in large normal 227. Here are your second, third, fourth, fifth posts from that game:

1. Nope.
2. Mininormal 2125
3. Not sure.

From tone I have hoctac and norwee likely town and manatee likely scum.

Not a strong read but,
Nothing of his rings townie, and I particularly see this post coming from scum.

while we r at it, lets try to make communications clean and fluid
the more content we have, the better
if we need to translate every 2 posts, we r looseing possibilities on interactions

dont like this post it screams "im towny"

in a large game like this, picking some VI to quicklynch isn't a bad idea day 1.

While I dont like the idea behind this post im inclined to believe it comes from town for now

hum, that post seems more townie than scummy than me
idk how good my tone reading is though

What's your thoughts on stan1ey?

I like what he is doing so far. He is clarifying stuff and also trying to scumhunt(votato)
He said he was really good at scum though, but I still tl stan1ey

Similar to what I was thinking when I read his iso so far. His answers to questions all seem natural.

The more word talks the more I like his progression.

This is like page 7-8 or whatever of that game and ALL of these posts stand out more to me in terms of trying to sort players, generate content, and share reads to influence than thread than anything you've done here so far. I'll grant you that maybe it's been harder in this game because pages and pages were generated while you weren't around, but tbh if you're town in this game, you'd be far better served just quoting singular posts and giving takes like you did in 227 than doing the giant fluff walls filled with empty statements like you've given us so far.

Spoiler: GuiltyLion Appears to Become Conscious of This, and Tries to Explain Why He Isn't Voting For NDMath

Fyi I just finished a scum game, mini theme 2145.
By some of the meta argument it supports the conclusion I'm scum this game so I'm bringing it up before someone else does.

NDMath, what specifically about that game do you think supports a meta argument of you being scum in this one?

I dunno about this post, I feel a lot of people jumped at it but I'm having a hard time convincing myself that scum!NDMath actually goes ahead and posts this. I just wouldn't even bring it up at all if it were me. Or if I did bring it up I'd try to talk about how the completed scum game makes me town in this game. This just doesn't feel like something that is likely to come from scum

VOTE: GuiltyLion

[Blair]

I stumbled upon this case when I noticed GuiltyLion wasn't voting for NDMath in the vote count, because I was sure he was based on his posts.

[Blair]

Spoiler: GuiltyLion Votes For Osuka

-You could want to stick with me and see if a popopopopopopopopop mislynch could go through without you, in which case a) GL looks bad and b) you can then play the 'I told you so, GL is scum!!' card on D2

Nah, i would just nightkill you buddy.

this post is weird, not to mention the fact that nking guilty in that scenario might be a bad idea to begin with

im not sure how i feel about glitch. looker has barely posted so i dont have a read there either

glitch in particular has posts that don't really ping me either way, but i should iso that slot and delve in a little deeper sometime soon

nauci might be scum and couldve been trying to pocket me or something, but now that ive voiced that thought she should give up on that front. doesn't mean she's not scum though

not quite sure how i feel about lion and popopopopoopopoopopppop. it's definitely not svs, maybe tvt (unlikely?) but probably tvs. not sure who the scum there is, though. lion has some slightly scummy vibes if we're talking strictly meta, but i'm not too sure there either

both these posts are really waffley and don't take any stances on anything. There's also more problems with later posts which I'll get to in a second

he doesnt usually play this defensively when hes town from what i can tell. he seems to be very obviously uncomfortable, which is a tell of scum gl

this struck me as especially fake

first, I've only played one game with osuka before several years ago, so he's not speaking from personal experience here

second, I am well known for overreacting to votes/scumreads on me as town. I don't know where the "obviously uncomfortable" thing comes from at all - my problems with being scum have to do with keeping up and generating a

quantity

of content, it's not a

quality

of content problem. I've played 60-70+ games on site, have been around for years, I'm not someone who's "obviously uncomfortable" when I'm scum. Just less engaged than I am as town.

I think you're just making shit up, osuka. Unless you wanna link me to games you reviewed to come to this conclusion.

VOTE: osuka

I think osuka is scum, and have given several reasons why I'm voting there.

Spoiler: GuiltyLion Immediately Spends a Bunch of Posts Pushing NDMath Instead of Osuka

If NDmath doesn’t post anything good soon i wouldn’t mind voting there tbh.

Agreed.

+1 on this too

I don't buy you thought that it was very scummy unless you can be more specific as to why.

alright, if you ask for it I will indulge!

first things first, I didn't like opening with the "let's see if I can remember why I quoted these posts!", feels really performative and buddying up to the thread. feels like you're mindful of how people are going to perceive your entry

next, a number of your questions are useless, they don't need to be answered and I don't see how they will generate useful content. Often because there's more content later that makes the answers to the questions irrelevant, or because they're just kinda empty things to discuss. It seems pretty clear that Quick thought at least the 'hood' aspect of Truth's claim was legitimate. CSF has posted a bunch of content to work with, who cares about "avoiding" RVS? Do you really think that's the most indicative thing you could comment on in the first 150 posts, or even the most indicative thing about CSF's play in the game?

You also make a number of really hedgey or pointless comments. "Usually pushing for NL comes from scum" (hard disagree btw), "but here it's probably closer to null". Okay? Do you scumread Candy Shop or not? "I find this a likely town mindset though not necessarily townie". What? What's the point of that comment at all?

Next, you just voted/unvoted and peaced out. I think town should be at least putting a vote down in that situation to advance the game, even if they're not fully caught up yet. you STILL haven't voted. What are you doing to actually help catch/kill scum? How does town benefit at all from your presence in the game if you're not participating in any wagons?

Finally, adding your next post into the mix, it's not really clear to me

at all

why you have any of the reads that you do. Your reads list has most of the players in the game in ambiguous nully tiers with no explanation given as to how they got to be there or where you'd feel comfortable voting. Why am I lower than Candyshop, who is lower than everyone else in the game? Do you think I'm more likely scum? If both myself and Candyshop were at L-1 and you were holding the hammer, you'd vote me over Candy Shop - why? Why are Glitch/Nauci below the four players above them? Would you vote to lynch either of those slots today?

None of it is content that is useful to me to help understand your thought process or suggests that you're taking initiative to solve the game for your benefit or anyone else's. It all feels very timid and blendy, like you're just posting a formulaic template of what you think town posts are supposed to look like.

so I just tried to casually skim through NDMath town/scum to see if he always plays this poorly and it looks like this dude has never been scum yet on MS lmao

however, in his completed town games, he's definitely more goal-oriented in terms of votes/pressure and shows the ability to make insightful analysis, compared to what he's offered so far here.

So I think he's a great bet for scum and D1 lynch

osuka dialing back me, on first take I can kinda see it being town, but I don't like how he didn't really address where the meta point originally came from and I don't like the subtle redirect to Nauci who had started the wagon on him. I also just don't find Nauci's game all that scummy I think she's pretty likely town and a bad vote for today.

I agree with Quick that optimal mafia play is moreso about pushing mislynches than looking town, but I think the argument kinda quickly derailed from the original point about whether Nauci's play serves a scum agenda or not. The reason I think it's town-indicative that she defused the Osuka/Quick argument is because if she is scum then she's removing distractions or potential footholds to vote/engage at no benefit to herself. I don't agree that she gets any real "towncred" from that, as evidenced by the fact that many players are still throwing around the idea of voting her.

Glitch actually felt more townie to me in his most recent post than any of his past ones, he's not a bonafide townread yet and I don't think I'd cry if he got lynched but I'm more interested in osuka/NDMath slots first.

basically, if you wanna talk slots that are trying to look town for the sake of looking town vs trying to solve, reread what I pointed out about NDMath's posts. They're all fluff, there's nothing that actually leads to development of reads and there's no discernible thought process that indicates that he's trying to solve.

He's misinterpreting norwee's post in a way that's missing what's intended to be a humorous statement and instead interpreting it as norwee scumreading him. I found more of norwee's points valid and their tone townie.

This doesn't feel like honest analysis to me. Let's rewind and look at the Norway post that you say is "intended to be a humorous statement" -

GuiltyLion, can you please come in and obvtown it up soon. Your RVS entrance coupled with disappearing hasn’t exactly filled me to the brin with confidence regarding your slot.

what do you see as the humor in this post? This to me felt like a really bogus shade and I kinda took it personally, my RVS was completely NAI and I 'disappeared' because I had other stuff I wanted to do away from the site. I honestly hate coming to threads and seeing people talk about how scummy I am solely because I'm not available to post at all times, it gets under my skin. So what did I misinterpret here, exactly?

alright, if you ask for it I will indulge!

1. first things first, I didn't like opening with the "let's see if I can remember why I quoted these posts!", feels really performative and buddying up to the thread. feels like you're mindful of how people are going to perceive your entry

2. next, a number of your questions are useless, they don't need to be answered and I don't see how they will generate useful content. Often because there's more content later that makes the answers to the questions irrelevant, or because they're just kinda empty things to discuss. It seems pretty clear that Quick thought at least the 'hood' aspect of Truth's claim was legitimate. CSF has posted a bunch of content to work with, who cares about "avoiding" RVS? Do you really think that's the most indicative thing you could comment on in the first 150 posts, or even the most indicative thing about CSF's play in the game?

3. You also make a number of really hedgey or pointless comments. "Usually pushing for NL comes from scum" (hard disagree btw), "but here it's probably closer to null". Okay? Do you scumread Candy Shop or not? "I find this a likely town mindset though not necessarily townie". What? What's the point of that comment at all?

4. Next, you just voted/unvoted and peaced out. I think town should be at least putting a vote down in that situation to advance the game, even if they're not fully caught up yet. you STILL haven't voted. What are you doing to actually help catch/kill scum? How does town benefit at all from your presence in the game if you're not participating in any wagons?

5. Finally, adding your next post into the mix, it's not really clear to me

at all

why you have any of the reads that you do. Your reads list has most of the players in the game in ambiguous nully tiers with no explanation given as to how they got to be there or where you'd feel comfortable voting. Why am I lower than Candyshop, who is lower than everyone else in the game? Do you think I'm more likely scum? If both myself and Candyshop were at L-1 and you were holding the hammer, you'd vote me over Candy Shop - why? Why are Glitch/Nauci below the four players above them? Would you vote to lynch either of those slots today?

6. None of it is content that is useful to me to help understand your thought process or suggests that you're taking initiative to solve the game for your benefit or anyone else's. It all feels very timid and blendy, like you're just posting a formulaic template of what you think town posts are supposed to look like.

(Numbers Inserted)
1. I am a very self-conscious player. So yes I care how people perceive my entry.
2. Funny enough, both examples you cite are actually looker's words due to it spoilering weirdly.

@Looker

3. Pushing for NL coming from scum is from personal experience it has come from scum more times than town. At the moment in time I wasn't sure, as of completing the catchup I scumread the slot. The comment on tstbs meant that I felt quick's mindset was that of a townie, but I believed it was probably something that mafia could/would fake. I decided to keep it I guess?
4. Voting was accidental due to looker's post quoting weird. I didn't see value in voting at that point in time. I don't get why I can't be not voting in peace when it's still early in the dayphase and I'm not one to case early on. I'm helping just as much without voting in that you got the impression that if I did vote it would be for you and received the same amount of pressure from it, I don't get that point at all.
5. The purpose of the readlist was to summarize the catchup and fill in what wasn't said in terms of reads. I'm more willing to hang the further down the list, and I tend to be a more defensive player in that I prefer not having my townreads hung to getting my scumreads hung.
6. I'm not comprehending this paragraph.

2 and first part of 4 - my bad, these are bad mistakes on my part, fair enough.

second half of 4 - I fundamentally disagree with this though. You're not creating the same amount of pressure, you're shirking the responsibility of putting your money where your mouth is. And you're not putting pressure on other players too! if I hit L-1 that becomes a more difficult game state for scum off the wagon, because now my claim or lynch is potentially imminent and they gotta either explain why they're okay with the situation

or

start defending me. If they don't comment on an L-1 wagon at all it looks really bad on them both at the time and in later days. This doesn't really apply the same way as the wagon has fewer and fewer votes, lots of players can get away with ignoring an L-3 or an L-4 wagon.

5 - I think you kinda missed my point here. I'm not so much questioning the purpose of a reads list in general, I'm more specifically questioning why your tiers exist, they feel arbitrary. Let's just zoom in on Candy Shop for a single example - it's baffling to me that he somehow exists in between Glitch/Nauci and myself. Presumably, all of us are scumreads to you in some form or the other. How and why did you decide to put him in a tier of his own? Why not just have him on my tier, or the tier above? What meaning were you trying to convey by separating the four of us into three tiers like that?

6 - I feel it's kinda clear? None of your post by post comments lead me to understand how you then created that readslist. Largely because of my issues in point 5, I can't trace a clear train of thought from "here's my thoughts as I'm reading the game" -> "here's how my reads got to be where they are".

From context of this post and that they're my most recent games, I'm assuming the games you Iso'd my slot were open777 and largenomal227.
In open 777 I wasn't 'townie' and 'insightful' until day 2. Day 1 I was scumread by many players and my reads were very omgussy.
In largenormal227 I layed low and didn't do much until I lead massclaim. I definitely wasn't very goal oriented in this game.
Also, I would love to point out the use of 'so far here' as opposed to presumably looking at most of the game in the other games.

I'm not sure why this counts as a defense? Aren't you saying basically that as town you don't start trying until later, and you haven't tried yet here? How is that different from a scum game where you don't try?

and I definitely think you were more goal oriented in large normal 227. Here are your second, third, fourth, fifth posts from that game:

1. Nope.
2. Mininormal 2125
3. Not sure.

From tone I have hoctac and norwee likely town and manatee likely scum.

Not a strong read but,
Nothing of his rings townie, and I particularly see this post coming from scum.

while we r at it, lets try to make communications clean and fluid
the more content we have, the better
if we need to translate every 2 posts, we r looseing possibilities on interactions

dont like this post it screams "im towny"

in a large game like this, picking some VI to quicklynch isn't a bad idea day 1.

While I dont like the idea behind this post im inclined to believe it comes from town for now

hum, that post seems more townie than scummy than me
idk how good my tone reading is though

What's your thoughts on stan1ey?

I like what he is doing so far. He is clarifying stuff and also trying to scumhunt(votato)
He said he was really good at scum though, but I still tl stan1ey

Similar to what I was thinking when I read his iso so far. His answers to questions all seem natural.

The more word talks the more I like his progression.

This is like page 7-8 or whatever of that game and ALL of these posts stand out more to me in terms of trying to sort players, generate content, and share reads to influence than thread than anything you've done here so far. I'll grant you that maybe it's been harder in this game because pages and pages were generated while you weren't around, but tbh if you're town in this game, you'd be far better served just quoting singular posts and giving takes like you did in 227 than doing the giant fluff walls filled with empty statements like you've given us so far.

The funny thing about mafia is that there are multiple players on the scum team! I often have several scumreads despite having tragically only one vote. I suspected NDMath and was in the process of sorting him, and for most of these quotes you posted there was no wagon on him while there was a wagon on osuka and so there was no benefit to switching. Also, several of them are

direct responses

to posts he made with the intent of sorting/interrogating him, that's not me "pushing" him.

Spoiler: GuiltyLion Appears to Become Conscious of This, and Tries to Explain Why He Isn't Voting For NDMath

Fyi I just finished a scum game, mini theme 2145.
By some of the meta argument it supports the conclusion I'm scum this game so I'm bringing it up before someone else does.

NDMath, what specifically about that game do you think supports a meta argument of you being scum in this one?

I dunno about this post, I feel a lot of people jumped at it but I'm having a hard time convincing myself that scum!NDMath actually goes ahead and posts this. I just wouldn't even bring it up at all if it were me. Or if I did bring it up I'd try to talk about how the completed scum game makes me town in this game. This just doesn't feel like something that is likely to come from scum

This is actually a very important post and you're completely misrepping me. I am quite skeptical now that NDMath is scum, primarily because of 986, and that's exactly why I made this post. That's just not a post I really see coming from scum, I find it the most town-indicative thing he's done.

What's your thought on 986? And further, what do you actually think is my scum agenda here? Is NDMath my buddy and I'm just drilling/1v1ing with him earlier in D1 for ~associatives~ but then deciding not to vote him which completely negates the point of a bus? Or is he town, in which case I'm deciding not to vote him just when his mislynch is becoming really easy to justify voting/pushing? Please explain what you see going on there from scum!GL perspective.

1. Yes, I am actually aware that there are multiple players in the game. My point here is you were voting for one scumread while spending almost all of your time focusing on another.

2. There are a couple possible interpretations. Yeah, NDmath could be your partner and you were distancing from him without actually voting for him. He could also be town with osuka as your scum partner, whom you voted for the sake of optics while not actively pushing him and shading a different slot. Neither are unimaginable at all, and while I understand you not wanting to devote much effort to understanding why someone would scumread you, I don't think it's hard to guess I was suggesting one of those two scenarios.

You could also be town, but that leaves the question of why a townie would park his vote on one player then immediately switch gears and zero in on someone else.

The fact that several of those posts were responses is valid, but you choose what you want to respond to and talk about so it still boils down to a question of why you would devote so much energy to NDmath and so little to osuka whilst voting for osuka and not NDmath.

[Blair]

lol at Quick saying I voted for GuiltyLion for "no stated reason whatsoever"

[Blair]

AND Blair has had every opportunity to tell me and the rest of the game that consolidating wagons doesn't mean we are actually ending the day. But Blair remains quiet on that because she knows that when you consolidate wagons too early it's almost always on Town.

This is an outright lie. I haven't been quiet on that. I unequivocally stated multiple times that consolidating wagons doesn't mean we're ending the day early.

[Blair]

Also, BLAIR SAID NOTHING OF GLITCH WHO IS OBJECTIVELY THE SCUMMIEST PERSON IN THE GAME!

I don't agree with this assessment. Neither do you.

[Blair]

Why would Blair, a 10 year vet, be perfectly okay with a miller mason claim?

Because we are not lynching the mason claim today.

As for why I haven't "poked around" with the claim, Truth has said too much about it already, and it's been poked enough for today.

[Blair]

Now, ask me whatever it is you've been wanting to ask me about Glitch.

[Blair]

Another option is that osuka is Scum and Blair is trying to distract from a wagon on osuka without actually overtly saying they think osuka is Scum.

I've overtly said osuka is town. Multiple times.

[Blair]

Nothing happened to consolidating wagons. I decided GuiltyLion deserved go be a contender in that race.

Arguments predicated on perceived hypocrisy generally belie cognitive dissonance. You don't think I'm scum. You think I'm lazy.

[Blair]

Nothing happened to consolidating wagons. I decided GuiltyLion deserved go be a contender in that race.

GL is Town. Why expand the lynch pool? Why do you think osuka should be in the lynch pool when you think he is Town?

I don't want osuka in the lynch pool genius. I told Nauci he was because he was the top wagon at the time so obviously he is in the lynch pool right now. I never said I *wanted* him there. You're smarter than this. I hope.

[Blair]

I also want to put to bed any confusion on this deadline topic. I have not been advocating for ending the day, because we clearly haven't made up our minds yet, so we couldn't end the day anyway. I have been advocating for making up our minds.

If we made up our minds and then decided to end the day? I would probably support that, yes. It's been over a week, and more than 1,200 posts. Nothing would qualify as a speedwagon at this point.

Here are some words that I didn't write that sum up my feeligns on deadlines pretty well:

Using 'All' The Time Till Deadline is Anti-town

What is this gak? No one should do this. Every time some player says that we 'shouldn't rush' or 'have plenty of time' I kind of want to run to run a speed wagon on them just for lulz.

It's total hoo-hah. No, you shouldn't use all the time available - you should use all the time you *need* There is a grind that happens in the game, and that grind wears down town and benefits scum because the longer you sit around reading stuff the more wifom can build up behind your eyeballs and mess with your reads. Also, people really should remember that there is a period of time after a lynch is decided upon when, usually, there's more conversation time needed - you don't want to have to rush that time. I'll be frank, I kind of think 1/2 to 2/3 of the available game time *tops* should be used to decide on the lynch. Then you can all discuss claims and last thoughts, and if needed can move the wagon. But I can't tell you how many times I've seen town gak up a lynch because they derped around till the last few days (or hours) and then you are trying to spot scum who are 'voting because of deadline' which...egads, no, don't let that happen.

So, yeah, using all the time is anti-town. So are speed lynches with no real analysis of the day - but at least everyone seems to understand *that*.

[Blair]

(For those of you in the back, Quick is implying GuiltyLion is a speedwagon with no real analysis)

[Blair]

Not doing your work for you.

[Blair]

I can't wait to find out what lies I've told.

[Blair]

It's called an inference. I have no choice but to make them when you say things like "Why don't you follow your own advice" with no clarification whatsoever.

Don't like it? Then stop being enigmatic and say what you mean.

[Blair]

Yeah we're done here. You're impossible to talk to you. You're either lying or you think you're being really clear and then screaming at me when you aren't. Either way, not worth it.

[Blair]

For all interested parties, here is Quick's pretty clear case:

GLITCH!!!

You said NOTHING about GLITCH!!! The Scummiest person in the game right now!!!

Your discredit shows you have ulterior motives AND you HAVEN'T actually addressed a single point I have made. Instead, you have sidestepped the issue completely.

You made zero mention on how caught up you are, you made zero mention of keeping the game going based on getting better reads on inactive slots, zero argument for how there are diminishing returns on the gamestate when content isn't in a state of diminishing returns.

You also have VERY LITTLE to show for your read on Cat considering you are ready to consolidate wagons for lynch. I've demonstrated Glitch's case on Cat is right shit. You are just pushing the "second to best counter wagon". Cat's content is GOOD. I wouldn't lynch that slot today and I don't think if you are Town that you would be pushing that slot either. They truthfully have better content then you do in this game.

You have altogether completely stopped Scum hunting OR you were never Scum hunting in the first place. You SAY you don't want to end the Day early, but when I press you on this, you try and turn it around on me and say I shouldn't care about ending the Day early. And this reasoning is based on some pretty shitty assumptions about how I play this game based on where I have played??? Get your head examined because this is borderline retarded. I've been here since 2015 and I magically care about the game producing information overload based on me playing on MU and other sites with 48 hour phases where there are a lot more Posts/Hour? Go back and read that last sentence again with the knowledge that those sites rarely if ever actually end day early regardless of how much content is actually produced in them D1. I know it and Blair knows it due to her familiarity with MU: Those sites with 48 hour Day phases almost always feel like there isn't enough content to make an informed lynch on D1. And I can't stress this enough... BLAIR KNOWS that games with 48 hour phases need all the help they can get on D1 to produce content. So IF Blair is assuming that I come from those sites, then Blair knows that I would literally NEVER be in favor of ending D1 early. AND Blair has had every opportunity to tell me and the rest of the game that consolidating wagons doesn't mean we are actually ending the day. But Blair remains quiet on that because she knows that when you consolidate wagons too early it's almost always on Town.

SO NO, THAT'S NOT ACTUALLY AN ANSWER TO WHAT I WAS INQUIRING ABOUT.

Blairs push on Cat is beyond horrible - especially when Cat has demonstrated a high level of competence for their reads and the development there in.

Also, BLAIR SAID NOTHING OF GLITCH WHO IS OBJECTIVELY THE SCUMMIEST PERSON IN THE GAME! Why? Their reasons for voting Cat are as smelly as Gehenna and when pressed on this, they double down and don't reevaluate, their initial vote on me felt like newb Town, but it was literally so bad that they had to say, "oops, did I do that?" None of the reasons that Glitch has given for their SRs and votes have even been with a competent understanding of the game we call Mafia which is literally the only reason people are NOT voting there. Because people think it's TSTBS. Guess what? Some people really ARE that bad at this game that they would give reasons that are not even valid to vote someone and when proven wrong they literally just stop posting. You can't make this up! People are literally thinking to themselves, "There is no way they are that bad as Scum that they would give those reasons and stick with them." But they are actually that bad. Anyone with a Mafia IQ of 85 could be able to tell you that Glitch is never getting NKed.

Which brings me to the real meat of this story.. Why exactly IS Blair content with the gamestate and doesn't mind consolidating wagons while they are not caught up? It's because Scum are currently in control of the game. Upon reflection, Truth is probably Scum with Blair. Blair hasn't weighed in at all on Truth's claim and that means that Blair feels perfectly fine with the claim. Why would Blair, a 10 year vet, be perfectly okay with a miller mason claim? Wouldn't you expect Blair to at the very least do a bit of poking around with that claim to get some sort of way to measure how the claim stacks up on it's own? Oh, wait, Blair isn't caught up in this game at all. So why exactly do they feel perfectly comfortable with trying to get a wagon on Cat, who has demonstrated a level of competence of this game that Glitch couldn't dream of? This whole, "This is fine" montra that Blair has found themselves in shows a distinct apathy that is just prevalent enough to push to end the Day while not really feeling like they actually need to push SRs. This sort of, "let's get ready to end the day.. I know Cat has good content, but I honestly just want to consolidate wagons so we don't have to worry about no-lynching." Meanwhile, Norway keeps getting Scummier and Scummier with every post. He got a lot of rope for his tunnel on GL, but now that GL has demonstrated pretty clear Town mindset I am wondering if Norway was simply putting up a strong front so he would get TR on D1 so he can push his weight around later in the game with the understanding that people are not going to change their first blush impressions of them as being too bold to be Scum. At first, Norway was sheeping me in a pretty obvious way. Now that I have him as solid Town he starts to seriously deviate from my reads when he KNOWS I have some pretty potent early game TRs. It also makes sense that he would try and make a splash and get an early TR from me so he doesn't have to worry about me calling for his lynch when there is a claim and a CC outside of himself and I still am calling for his lynch. This happened exactly as I have stated it in our last completed game together. Another option is that osuka is Scum and Blair is trying to distract from a wagon on osuka without actually overtly saying they think osuka is Scum. That would mean Blair is chainsawing Cat at this point which seems to be the most rational motive for Blair at this point.

TL;DR: It makes sense that Blair is totally fine with consolidating the wagons and ending the Day at this point because as Scum she would know her Scum buddies are in no real danger and Blair wants to keep it that way. That leads me to thinking Cat is most certainly Town based on Blair chainsawing Cat to try and get a shot at lynching a good Town player D1 instead of Scummy Scum fuck osuka who admits I have a pretty rock solid case against him at this point and his content has dropped severely since I gave my psychoanalytic read on him. I also have outside reasons for suspecting Norway as he initially was sheeping me hard but then ended up having pretty much the exact opposite reads that I have. Glitch remains someone I would lynch if for nothing else then to see who if anyone else would vote there given there are very reasonable motives to get that slot out of the game as Town.

P-Edit: Blair was saying to consolidate wagons to Cat, osuka, and ND. Suddenly Blair has a change of heart for literally zero reason stated whatsoever. This is Scum and I hope people can see that.

VOTE: Blair

If you find it persuasive feel free to pick out parts of it to discuss with me or sheep it and vote for me.

If you feel like Quick started typing that after I said I was done talking to him until something relevant came up and he just started slamming his forehead into his keyboard until 1276 came out, please consider voting for GuiltyLion.

A vote for GuiltyLion is a vote for a better tomorrow, etc., etc.

[Blair]

Did you look at GuiltyLion's meta argument, Blair? He said he posts a lot less often as mafia, and I believe him, as this is something that can be disproven easily if it not true, and seems like a risky gamble for mafia to make.

Could you check his last few mafia games to see if it is true and his activity is much reduced in those games?

I also think you are slightly suspicious for trying to move the votes away from osuka. If osuka is mafia, I will be suspicious of you being mafia with him.

I'm 100% okay with you suspecting me if osuka flips scum. I don't think he will.

I'm reluctant to go down the meta rabbit hole for GuiltyLion's activity being alignment-indicative since he has already asked us not to push that angle on the basis that he has just been genuinely busy lately - and believe him. This site has committed to a cultural stance of trusting each other not to lie about IRL events for in-game advantages and I broadly agree with that stance.

[Blair]

He's also still the leading wagon, so it's not like I especially need to be championing his lynch right now or anything

Is this true? I mean, obviously the "leading wagon" part is true, but is the "still" part accurate? I seem to remember that wagon being ranked lower until pretty recently - maybe I'm misremembering, but I feel like the osuka-wagon blitz to #1 was a pretty sudden event.

[Blair]

actually going back to where I last posted yesterday made me remember that literally my most recent post was this, which Blair just entirely ignored when deciding to case me?

I still like the Osuka vote, none of his latest bursts of post felt all that town and this one was really bad shade-for-sake-of-shade

It was sort of the crux of my argument that you suddenly became aware of your incongruous behavior and attempted to correct it recently.

[Blair]

CSF's bothered me a lot (of course I could be tunneling there). It was like she saw an opening after you mentioned osuka could be scum and she started pushing it. Then you jumped in, which I mentioned earlier gave me pause when I was otherwise townreading you.

Nauci literally just joined it now, but that one bothers me less because she has a clear, long standing progression on osuka.

[Blair]

Truth's vote was so awkward I sort of blocked it out of my memory until just now when I went back to look.

[Blair]

As of like 15 pages ago I felt very confident that GL is town and somewhat confident that Osuka is scum

Did any major developments happen which indicate otherwise

My osuka townread is holistic, so no it isn't based on anything recent.

My GuiltyLion scumread is based on my observation (note: GuiltyLion thinks this is hogwash) that after he voted for osuka he immediately followed with a stream of posts shading NDMath as scum with hardly any focus on osuka at all. I theorize that he eventually realized this, and posted a pretty awkward about-face where he declared NDMath was probably town based on... something pretty dubious, and then doubled down on osuka. I don't buy his progression on NDMath and feel like he voted for osuka while advocating for NDMath until he became self conscious about it - I haven't settled on a final theory for exactly why he would do that, though there are several, but the point being it seemed disingenuous.

[Blair]

As of like 15 pages ago I felt very confident that GL is town and somewhat confident that Osuka is scum

Did any major developments happen which indicate otherwise

Nah i think i've gotten to that point too. The blowback on this wagon also makes me wonder if we hit the nail on the head and scum is trying to stop it from happening.

Is anyone other than me "trying to stop it from happening?" Because I had the opposite impression: That it was moving forward with far too little resistance to be on scum.

[Blair]

If you feel like Quick started typing that after I said I was done talking to him until something relevant came up and he just started slamming his forehead into his keyboard until 1276 came out, please consider voting for GuiltyLion.

You explicitly said to consolidate the wagons to Cat, ND, and osuka and then you about face to voting GL. Where is the progression here? You knew I was building a case against you which is why you decided to change to GL.

1. Stop lying about me saying I wanted to consolidate wagons to include osuka. I have been townreading osuka all along and never once said I wanted osuka in the lynchpool. I have said the opposite repeatedly. You are being deliberately obtuse because you think this will somehow get your case off life-support.

2. My progression on GuiltyLion is clearly represented in the post in which I voted for him, and the many subsequent posts discussing it.

Again, you're showing cognitive dissonance here by trying to push a case based on perceived hypocrisy - a hypocrisy that is easily applicable to yourself. If you get to call me scummy for trying to consolidate wagons and then scumhunting elsewhere, then I get to call you scummy for saying we should keep our options open and then complaining about me voting outside of ND/CSF.

But I'm not doing that because you're prob-town and voting people for supposed hypocrisy is obtuse.

[Blair]

Stop lying about me saying I wanted to consolidate wagons to include osuka. I have been townreading osuka all along and never once said I wanted osuka in the lynchpool. I have said the opposite repeatedly. You are being deliberately obtuse because you think this will somehow get your case off life-support.

Please be advised we are wagoning CSF, NDMath, and Osuka.

If osuka is scum we should lynch him tomorrow, I enjoy his posts.

You were saying?

Literally the only one of those quotes that could be misconstrued as me asking for osuka to be in the lynchpool is the second one - AND IT ONLY LOOKS THAT WAY BECAUSE YOU RIPPED OUT THE SURROUNDING SENTENCES:

Please be advised we are wagoning CSF, NDMath, and Osuka.

The Osuka wagon kind of feels like it came out of nowhere to become a front runner to me.

That's me, right there in the post you just misrepresented, expressing confusion at why osuka is in the running at all.

Get your head out of the sand, Quick, your deep-tunneling.

[Blair]

kind of feels

You're basically saying that you hard defended osuka by saying "kind of"???

The "So you're saying" tell for cognitive dissonance.

No, I'm saying I have been calling osuka town all day, lightly referenced it in that post you ripped out of context, and continued saying it afterward - and you're deliberately attempting (poorly) to mislead the thread into believing I flip-flopped on osuka when I've been calling him town every single time I'm asked (and several times when I wasn't) consistently since I subbed in.

[Blair]

Blair I'm less interested in the discussion around what your osuka read is and when it was expressed, I see your point that Quick is misrepping/misunderstanding you and you're right that you've consistently been against an osuka lynch.

What I want to know in greater detail is

why

. What specifically from osuka is pointing you to the conclusion that he's not scum here? From what I gather from your posts, it seems to be largely a gamestate thing - you don't like the people voting him and you're skeptical that the leading wagon is on scum right now. I see the value in putting some stock into game state based reasoning, but I really don't think anything in osuka's ISO indicates town and I want to know if you have good reasons based on his own play for thinking he's a bad lynch.

Partly gamestate, as you've said. (The wagon spooled up too easily, in my opinion)

Partly his behavior. As I said earlier, he keeps allowing himself to get baited into pointless slapfights with poor optics. Scum know the optics are bad, and are more likely to take the "high road" and try to give the benefit of the doubt - townies don't care about the optics (because they know they're town and that anyone scumreading them for this is just wrong) and are more tempted to dive headlong into calling stupid posts... well... stupid.

[Blair]

Should we hammer osuka now? I would like to get to the next day.

Reminder for doctors to protect me please!

*shotguns entire liquor cabinet*

[Blair]

posted a pretty awkward about-face where he declared NDMath was probably town based on... something pretty dubious, and then doubled down on osuka. I don't buy his progression on NDMath

I'd also like to talk more about this. I don't feel I have a good sense of your own read on NDMath, especially not from your response when I asked you about my motives or from how you talk about NDMath in this post here. I've said before, I mostly townread him for 986, that is a post I find very difficult to imagine coming from scum.

You call that dubious - why? What's the explanation for scum!NDMath bringing up a recently completed scum game and saying it looks similar to his play here? I can't convince myself that scum!him wouldn't at all be self-conscious about that, I can't believe he honestly thought it would look good on him if he's scum in both games. This is the reason for my dramatic swing, it's a post that I just don't see coming from scum.

would you be comfortable with an NDMath lynch today? If not, why are you attributing scum motivation to me ultimately deciding the same? I get that it's because I was "shading" a slot that I wasn't voting (I still think the key distinction is that I was pressuring, not shading), but if we can at least agree on an NDMath townread that might help me see your PoV a little better.

I called it dubious because you're saying you can't imagine scum making that post - is it really that hard, though?

If NDMath is self-conscious scum and he's just completed a scum game where he played similarly (bear in mind player-meta has been brought up in this game repeatedly), he may be trying to pre-empt what he felt was an incoming meta-case.

Do I believe that is definitely what happened? No. NDMath is a hard null for me, largely because of that very post - because I can easily see it coming from town or scum. I called your usage of that post to justify a read-flip on him "dubious" because, to me, it was. Because nothing about that post seems alignment-exclusive to me, but it seemed alignment-exclusive enough to you for you to completely flip your read on him.

[Blair]

More points towards Osuka!scum: His main scumread right now is the main counterwagon on him, which seems opportunistic considering his lack of substance in outlining his scumreads. And his vibe right now feels very much like caught scum that's just giving up.

Could be.

Could also be town who's given up. That would fit pretty well with the whole "I'm surrounded by idiots" mood. (Which could also be an act, of course)

[Blair]

Which post of yours, specifically, do you believe would have caused scum!osuka to give up?

[Blair]

... He gave up because you called him a sadist?

[Blair]

You seem to think your observation that he is more sadist than masochist so shook him to his very core that he couldn't bear to fully participate in this game thread any longer.

I mean come on. Nothing about this game is that deep.

[Blair]

*flails*

[Blair]

I am really starting to doubt the validity of a miller mason, which Blair doesn't actually make any comments on.

I have commented on it:

Why would Blair, a 10 year vet, be perfectly okay with a miller mason claim?

Because we are not lynching the mason claim today.

As for why I haven't "poked around" with the claim, Truth has said too much about it already, and it's been poked enough for today.

Which is all that really needs to be said today.

[Blair]

Uh oh, Norwegian wants to consolidate wagons! After a paltry 1,400 posts!

[Blair]

I am really starting to doubt the validity of a miller mason, which Blair doesn't actually make any comments on.

I have commented on it:

Why would Blair, a 10 year vet, be perfectly okay with a miller mason claim?

Because we are not lynching the mason claim today.

As for why I haven't "poked around" with the claim, Truth has said too much about it already, and it's been poked enough for today.

Which is all that really needs to be said today.

Which is completely ignoring the fact that it's a miller mason claim.

Because the "Mason" part is the relevant part WRT why we won't be lynching him today.

[Blair]

Is the CSF wagon finally happening?

VOTE: Cat Scratch Fever

Prediction: Quick will somehow find this scummy even though he's been screaming about me asking to consolidate onto CSF for fifty billion pages.

[Blair]

Quick will somehow find this scummy even though he's been screaming about me asking to consolidate onto CSF for fifty billion pages.

If I was saying you need to consolidate to Cat, you would have a point, but I never said anything even remotely close to that, so you don't really have a point at all.

I'm pointing out that I have a well documented progression on this topic, and your awareness of said progression is also well documented.

[Blair]

I don't think I need a reason to engage you before voting you. I can always engage you after voting for you. After all, here I am, still talking to you.

HOL' UP

...!!!

Didn't you shade me for voting for you without taking the time to engage with you first?

[Blair]

It was also premature to be deciding which wagons we were going to end the day with considering Blair only replaced into the game like less than 24 hrs and hadn't had time to interact with me or ND afaict

[Blair]

Quick will somehow find this scummy even though he's been screaming about me asking to consolidate onto CSF for fifty billion pages.

If I was saying you need to consolidate to Cat, you would have a point, but I never said anything even remotely close to that, so you don't really have a point at all.

I'm pointing out that I have a well documented progression on this topic, and your awareness of said progression is also well documented.

That doesn't actually mean you can put words in my mouth.

Thank goodness I didn't.

I made a prediction. I didn't say you had already said it.

[Blair]

I don't think I need a reason to engage you before voting you. I can always engage you after voting for you. After all, here I am, still talking to you.

HOL' UP

...!!!

Didn't you shade me for voting for you without taking the time to engage with you first?

I shaded you for directing town onto two wagons when you first replaced in

You specifically said it was because I hadn't had time to interact with you or ND yet. (see quote above)

Yet here I am, interacting with you now. Which is your precise defense to osuka.

[Blair]

Everyone is stripping all of the nuance from my original vote for you so why do we suddenly care about nuance now?

I voted for you even though Norwe wanted me to vote for NDMath. I said this was because, even though Norwe wanted to settle on an NDMath lynch, I was ok with the lynch being between NDMath and you.

For some reason you and Quick have transformed this into a magical narrative where Blair mind-controls the entire thread into only voting for NDMath or CSF - even though I only gave that dichotomy as justification for my own vote.

[Blair]

You said I was forcing you to vote Cat when I never even barely inferred that you should do that.

Where and when?

[Blair]

For some reason you and Quick have transformed this into a magical narrative where Blair mind-controls the entire thread into only voting for NDMath or CSF - even though I only gave that dichotomy as justification for my own vote.

Actually, you put yourself in that position given you can't even keep to a self contained honest narrative.

I'll admit it's pretty hard to maintain an honest narrative when you keep blatantly lying about my posts - almost as if you know no one reads giant shouty all-caps walls so no one will notice.

[Blair]

I admit I don't think you ever said we needed to end the day on me & NDMath, which is why I haven't further prosecuted this point.

I did have the impression that you wanted to end the day with these wagons at the time though.

Here's what happened:

I subbed in.

I voted for you.

Norwe said something akin to "That's fine but you should really just help us lynch NDMath"

I responded that I was ok with NDMath and CSF being the competing wagons for the day.

Since then other people have jumped in and screamed at me that I'm an anti-town psychopath for implying we should even be considering competing wagons yet (while suspiciously not pushing Norwe for giving me the impression we were ready for that in the first place).

[Blair]

For some reason you and Quick have transformed this into a magical narrative where Blair mind-controls the entire thread into only voting for NDMath or CSF - even though I only gave that dichotomy as justification for my own vote.

Actually, you put yourself in that position given you can't even keep to a self contained honest narrative.

I'll admit it's pretty hard to maintain an honest narrative when you keep blatantly lying about my posts - almost as if you know no one reads giant shouty all-caps walls so no one will notice.

You're so full of shit. I'm never moving my vote D1.

Oh no.

I've pointed out over and over and over again where you have blatantly lied and misrepresented my posts. You can disagree on if the term "lie" is fair or not, I guess, but you can't pretend I just pulled this out of thin air. Check our dual iso. I've been saying this for a long while now.

[Blair]

Then stop talking to me.

Seriously.

I'm 1000% done. Vote me for the rest of the game. Just stop being obnoxious.

[Blair]

There is only one situation: The game.

Norwe suggested the situation was that it was time to settle on something.

Given that no one was calling for his head for saying so, I accepted his assessment.

P-edit: I see he's still going. For anyone who thinks I'm being petty here, please review the Blair/Quick ISO from the time I subbed in. Quick has been throwing shade at me (not just game-related, "maybe this is scummy" shade - actual personal shade) persistently - even when I'm having unrelated conversations with other players, he's still taking pot-shots at me. It's tiring.

[Blair]

I have a guilty on Popopo. Happy?

VOTE: Popopo

[Blair]

There is exactly ONE anti-town faction. (The mafia)
If we had mafia + SK there would be TWO anti-town factions.

Do you understand how the game works now?

Check the link I provided. SK isn't a faction because a faction is a TEAM of the same ALIGNMENT.

From the "Normal" wiki page:

The game should have at least one Mafia or Werewolf group (of at least two members). In mini games (at most 13 players), there must be exactly one such group, with no third parties.

Mini Normals don't have third parties.

[Blair]

Nauci is a fair shot at a partner pick for Popo.

[Blair]

UNVOTE:

[Blair]

I'm a vt

I thought norwe was pretty town

Scum might have a framer or some shit

I dont really see scum norwe faking a guilty out of the blue

These are strange posts if you were Vig this whole time.

[Blair]

Also: Why use one of your two shots on Night 1?

[Blair]

vigilante shooting town n1, seems about right

[Blair]

Do you think Norwe is a scum-Gunsmith? Because if he's just outright fake claiming then that was an improbable guess.

[Blair]

Vigilantes don't usually counter claim (unless they've used all their shots), they just shoot the fake claim the next night - so we may not find out today if Popo is telling the truth.

I think the right move here is for us to collectively decide who Popo should shoot tonight. This effectively gives us two lynches today - unless he's lying, in which case the real vigilante will shoot him.

Of course scum could just shoot the same person or no kill, but there's no real utility in them doing that just to lynch Popo when they could have just nightkilled him instead.

[Blair]

Also: Why use one of your two shots on Night 1?

I'm a vig i shoot

I mean, you pretty heavily implied you thought it was dumb for a vig to shoot night 1 when you entered the thread today complaining about it?

Have you ever rolled Vigilante before?

[Blair]

Ok.

Popopo Vig Tonight: Truth

VOTE: NDMath

That should clear up quite a few things I think?

[Blair]

Looker, I take it you're against this plan?

I think the right move here is for us to collectively decide who Popo should shoot tonight. This effectively gives us two lynches today - unless he's lying, in which case the real vigilante will shoot him.

[Blair]

I think the right move here is for us to collectively decide who Popo should shoot tonight. This effectively gives us two lynches today -

unless he's lying, in which case the real vigilante will shoot him.

If

popo is getting vigged

, then I think we should lynch blair.

Slip?

VOTE: LicketyQuickety

[Blair]

We got two for one, folks!

Grab your tickets early because this lynch train is leaving the station!

[Blair]

Shoot, I forgot the new site vernacular.

I’ll try again: Quick is canceled!

[Blair]

It's quiet.

Too quiet.

I can almost

feel

the wallpost closing in on me.

[Blair]

Sorry to hear that, Nauci. Is it at least behind you now, I hope?

[Blair]

I did start with NDMath until Quick scum slipped.

[Blair]

If someone could attack me with words instead of votes that would be nice.


If popo isn't hung his vigshot definitely shouldn't be truth.

Why not Truth?

Who instead?

I chose Truth because we're going to be doubting his miller claim from now until LyLo so this way we can resolve it without wasting a lynch, while simultaneously resolving Popo.

(And in the event that scum shoot Truth to frame Popo, we have forced scum to resolve Truth's claim for us - something they were evidently unwilling to do last night)

[Blair]

P.S. Based on night kills I am relinquishing my town read on Norwegian

FYI it takes more than nightkill analysis to erect my town read.

(I apologize in advance)

Please explain.

[Blair]

In my opinion Norwegian can't be scum unless (like Looker suggests) he's bussing Popo.

Claiming Gunsmith and getting LUCKY that Popo was actually a Vig? Unlikely.

[Blair]

The mod confirmed this and quoted the exact same sentence from the exact same wiki page.

[Blair]

@Deimos Please confirm this game do not have a SK.

No third parties, as per normal guidelines:

The game should have at least one Mafia or Werewolf group (of at least two members). In mini games (at most 13 players), there must be exactly one such group, with no third parties.

[Blair]

MINI Normals.

[Blair]

Mini (13 players or fewer) Normals can't have more than two factions.

[Blair]

You're arguing that there is a Mafia-aligned Serial Killer?

Serial Killer is explicitly third-party in Normal games.

[Blair]

You're arguing that there is a Mafia-aligned Serial Killer?

Serial Killer is explicitly third-party in Normal games.

Then why does it say on one page that SK is "Normal" while the mod says it is not? Is the Mod just saying that for this game or what? If so, we can confirm popo as Vig. Else, we can't.

The mod said there can't be a Serial Killer in this game (a Mini) per the Normal Guidelines.

The mod is welcome to come repeat himself here but this is getting ridiculous. All you have to do is read the portion of the wiki page that we both quoted to understand this.

Serial Killers are Normal, but because they are third parties they can only be used in Large Normals.

[Blair]

Preemptively trying to make you look scummy?

How on earth did I orchestrate your impressive failure to read a wiki quote posted by both myself and the game mod?

[Blair]

I would also like Blair to detail how I Scum slipped. Pretty much every time I have seen someone say someone Scum slipped It's been totally wrong. I don't actually think much of slips. It's mostly just hearsay.

Sure. I already did this in my vote post, but I'll elaborate (even though you and I both know whenever someone is asked to over explain it always ends up getting labeled a paranoid conspiracy theory):

I laid out a plan to test Popo's claim. Part of this plan was that, if Popo is lying, the real vigilante will shoot him tonight.

When you referred to my plan, you referred to it as "Popo gets vigged." I believe this was a Freudian slip - because you already know Popo is lying, and therefore he will be vigged if we follow my plan.

[Blair]

Perhaps.

But the entire point of us collectively selecting your target for tonight (a plan you agreed to) is to test your claim - ideally by making you shoot scum.

So the pick needs to come from someone other than you because if you are lying there's no way you pick a helpful target for us.

[Blair]

Also, why are you just now saying you're opposed to shooting Truth?

You have posted since I suggested it, and this is the first you've mentioned being opposed to it.

[Blair]

Let vig shoot at popopo if he's fake claiming. And if he's not shot we know he's vig

The point of using his second shot tonight is, if he's telling the truth, he probably dies tonight.

[Blair]

An awful lot of people are coming out of the woodwork to oppose shooting Truth.

[Blair]

Oh, I also semi think if Truth was Scum he would be posting in the Scum PT which would mean there would be no reason for Truth to "pick up" the EoD mod post.

Aren't you voting for Truth?

[Blair]

I didn't "ignore" your question - I just didn't repeat myself. Quick had literally just asked me the same thing and I had just answered him.

[Blair]

Truth, if you think Popo is "most likely mafia" you should be voting for him.

[Blair]

I think the right move here is for us to collectively decide who Popo should shoot tonight.

Why do you believe him?!

Truthfully? I don't.

A fact that isn't difficult to glean from that post or the preceding ones, if you hadn't cherry picked this sentence out of context.

[Blair]

Are you trying to say that Blair might be scum because she pulled some Galaxy Brain shit in our previous game and let you be wrong just to wait to frame you on it here chief

All my machinations are now laid bare.

[Blair]

I think this has gone on long enough. Every living player has weighed in now so we will have plenty to go off when the truth comes out (and a couple of people seem to have TMI, so that's a thing).

Spoiler:

I am the Vigilante.

I shot CSF as a PoE shot because she was the runner-up wagon yesterday and several players indicated if osuka flipped town they would suspect her today.

Two players appear to have TMI:

Truth - Seems to know Popopo is not the Vigilante (yet isn't voting for him) and openly speculated that I, specifically, could be the Vigilante.

LicketyQuickety - Seemed to enter the day dead-set on arguing there was a Serial Killer in the setup. An argument he attempted to force even after being directly contradicted by the mod, and (strikingly) even after Popopo claimed 2-shot Vigilante. Why double down on the idea of an unlimited shot killing role after an uncountered 2-shot claim? Did LQ know the Vigilante wasn't really 2-shot? If so, how?

VOTE: Popopo

[Blair]

There is a 0% chance of two Vigilantes in this setup, especially when one of them claimed VT until a Gunsmith outed them and then switched to Vigilante and claimed responsibility for the exact same shot I took.

[Blair]

You may commence flailing at your earliest convenience.

[Blair]

I don't think I really need to sell this any more, but in case there was any doubt - ask yourself, which of these two posts sounds more like the mindset of a town Vigilante being counterclaimed?

unless there could be 2 vig?

There is a 0% chance of two Vigilantes in this setup, especially when one of them claimed VT until a Gunsmith outed them and then switched to Vigilante and claimed responsibility for the exact same shot I took.

I'm 100% certain Popopo is scum. Popopo, on the other hand, is busy setting himself up for my eventual town flip.

[Blair]

Yes.

[Blair]

No one wanted to follow my plan, so here we are.

[Blair]

Scum will shoot me tonight and Norwe tomorrow night - protective roles, take note.

[Blair]

I'm town, so i knew the cop claim was false. Thats why I claimed VT, no sense in outing my PR for a false guilty

He said he had an investigation on you. If you're a Vigilante, and someone claims a guilty investigation on you, you immediately know they are a Gunsmith (or Psychologist).

If you're scum and someone claims a guilty investigation on you, you can't be certain what the investigation was.

Your uncertainty gave you away.

[Blair]

You were finally convinced with... the exact same sentence from the wiki that both myself and the mod quoted in the first place. I think the "make sure" part was accomplished already.

[Blair]

It really really doesn't make sense to direct the NK of the Vig and you really really should know better than that.

Good thing I was only directing the night kill of a fake vig, then.

As in, forcing scum to kill where we want them to kill to prove their fake claim? You seem to have left the part where I knew he was lying out of your calculus.

... Or have you? You didn't actually vote for me for this awful plan until after I claimed. Hm.

[Blair]

It was a quote from the Normal standards on the Wiki. That would be a hell of a lot more than a mod error.

[Blair]

Good thing I was only directing the night kill of a fake vig, then.

Except if you are Mafia and Truth is Town it makes perfect sense to direct the kill there.

You know what I find really interesting? The way you've been underselling a weak case on Truth sense Day 1 right up until the moment someone suggests eliminating him, and then you suddenly have this epiphany that maybe that's a bad idea after all. With no progression whatsoever.

[Blair]

You know, if you didn't come across so pompous and self centered all the time my reasons for SRing you every game would probably go down drastically.

I take this as an admission that your scumreads are, like I have been saying in all of our games for a while now, personal rather than factual. Noted.

Also: (irony)

[Blair]

The thing is, being pompous and self centered goes along really well with people who are genuinely good at Scum and as such, I find that particular trait pretty hard to TR.

How pompous and self centered would someone need to be in order to suggest that the way they particularly scumhunt should change a person's entire line of behavior as a player going forward?

[Blair]

I don't act like I am better than other people.

[Blair]

I don't act like I am better than other people.

Tell you what. You let me know when the last time you let a homeless person into your own home to help them and we will compare from there.

Acts of charity have nothing to do with whether or not someone is pompous or arrogant. This is irrelevant AtE.

The thing is, being pompous and self centered goes along really well with people who are genuinely good at Scum and as such, I find that particular trait pretty hard to TR.

How pompous and self centered would someone need to be in order to suggest that the way they particularly scumhunt should change a person's entire line of behavior as a player going forward?

I don't actually understand what you are saying here.

It's mostly just that I have a gripe with people who prioritize their Scum game over their Town game. You've demonstrated that you don't really care to play "fair" and/or "honestly" which are also traits that people who prioritize their Scum game over their Town game tend to exhibit.

First of all, I don't prioritize my scum game over my town game. You seem to think I do just because I don't mind being scumread by you in every single game. I am remarkably difficult to mislynch, so my system seems to work out just fine on the whole.

Second:

This is an outright lie. Quick doesn't have a gripe with people who prioritize their scum game over their town game. I learned that about him the first time I played with him on this site:

I didn't answer explicitly for future games. If I always say who I think is Scum or Town, then that can really hurt my Scum game if I can't lie.

[Blair]

I don't prioritize my Scum game over my Town game, I just don't want to spill everything I say about my Scum game.

Except I wasn't asking you about your scum game when you said this (and note the word 'explicitly'):

I didn't answer explicitly for future games. If I always say who I think is Scum or Town, then that can really hurt my Scum game if I can't lie.

I was asking you about your reads in that game. You didn't mind looking scummy by refusing to answer a direct question (for those of you who weren't there, the very reasonable question was "You just subbed in and lolhammered me after calling me town - does that mean you now think I'm scum?").

Why?

"Explicitly for future games." "That can really hurt my scum game."

Yet now you're pretending you're on some moral crusade against that very behavior and that's why you're scumreading me.

[Blair]

Welcome back, Looker. Popopo is lying scum, I'm the Vigilante, and Quick is pushing a counterwagon due to my... *checks scribbles on hand* personality?

[Blair]

"Every last detail"

I literally just asked you if you were scumreading me. I didn't even get a chance to ask why, because you never answered the first question. Explicitly to protect your future scum games.

[Blair]

But the fact remains you were willing to try it.

So let's not pretend you have a long standing crusade against it.

[Blair]

And on that note, I'm going to spare the thread from what would otherwise have been a long (albeit comical) back and forth and take a step back, I've made my point. Quick is being disingenuous in his reads.

Quick, the last word is yours.

[Blair]

Dunnstral raises a fair point. I think we need to resolve Truth's claim today. It isn't at all clear who his Mason partner would be at this point, given everyone's posts regarding him. Especially since my initial guess WAS Dunnstral and he's the one who brought it up.

Truth's partner needs to claim.

[Blair]

If we mislynch today I can't shoot unless I'm 100% sure I'll hit scum because hitting town after a mislynch would lose us the game.

[Blair]

I agree that mason partner should claim to prove truth. I'm not mason.

Odd phrasing - last minute edit?

Please confirm that you aren't a neighbor, either - for clarity.

I am neither a Mason nor a Neighbor with Truth or with anyone.

[Blair]

I get that now, but it's being used for the reason you weren't killed at night. Unless we think scum are sure you'd be shooting LQ

1. I was more likely to be protected if there is a complimentary protective role to CSF's.


2. Shooting me last night wouldn't have prevented my shot last night - it only would have prevented my shot tonight, which we've already established I am unlikely to be able to use anyway.

[Blair]

(He's saying either they killed Norwe because he was more threatening or [WIFOM: They killed him because they expected us to expect them to kill me].

Nauci, are you a Mason / Neighbor?

[Blair]

Oh no, I left an open bracket.

)

[Blair]

Need a definitive answer from everyone.

Then, if everyone says no, there's one more step.

Then we burn the witch.

[Blair]

I don't want to burden you, Nauci, but if you could link the posts for each of the living players where they said they weren't masons that would be swell - because I didn't realize we were down to just Looker.

[Blair]

I can't see any reason why people would have expected you to be killed last night instead of Norwegian, Blair, and I'm frankly shocked it has been brought up at all, by anyone other than Quick

Also, why Quick?

Killing me first would have made sense in a way, because I am a threat every night while Norwe was a threat every other night (and not a threat last night).

Level 2 logic dictates that you would invert that, though, in the case of protective roles.

Quick was drowning me in conspiracy theories and also arguing in bad faith - which I almost universally scumread so I was going to be struggling to sort him for the rest of the game, and I just can't imagine trying to sort him on top of sorting the rest of the game anywhere near endgame.

[Blair]

Fun Fact: Looker's conspiracy theory almost persuaded me to shoot Norwe

[Blair]

Nauci you are the greatest for compiling those quotes.

As for multi-kill mafia roles... I'm not aware of any Normal roles that would facilitate that?

[Blair]

I don't think Looker would say "Why are you trying to deflect to Blair to do what you just did?" if he were a mason.

He might. He wasn't explicitly scumreading him for it - it actually reads, to me, more like "I want to look like I'm addressing multiple people here" more than anything.

[Blair]

Either Truth will be confirmed town or confirmed scum in a couple of days. So there's no point lynching him right now. Especially since i believe the slot is most likely town.

P.S. I feel like it is a towny thing to have been repeating this on Day 1, and that the people who kept coming back to FOS Truth for his garbage claim on Day 1 are actually the ones suspicious to me now.

Who was doing this other than Quick?

[Blair]

Are you asking if NDMath is still coasting?

Because the answer is, "Yes."

[Blair]

P.S. Who was popopo protecting from wagon analysis w/ his self hammer because it sure as hell wasn't me

If we accept the premise that he was saving a partner from hammering (sometimes a self-hammer is just a self-hammer), the off-wagon folks were:

Nauci
Glitch
Truth
NDMath

[Blair]

That means your buddy has been posting since we began this discussion?

[Blair]

Your reads sound like you are not Truth's neighbor/mason. Is that correct?

[Blair]

And... he's gone again.

Taking that as a "I'm not masons or neighbors with Truth" post then because there's no way you read that conversation we were having about it and didn't speak up about it if you are.

@Truth

Who is your Mason partner?

[Blair]

VOTE: Truth

Wrong answer.

You haven't been nearly townie enough to warrant waiting to resolve you until endgame. Who is your partner?

[Blair]

I'm starting to think Truth's Mason buddy is just Truth talking to a mirror.

[Blair]

It has a lot to do with how confident you are that there will be at least one scum between Truth and [other person you would choose].

If you're 100% confident that at least one would be scum, then the oder becomes immaterial.

Otherwise, we have to consider the possibility that they are both town - in which case voting one out today and shooting the other tonight would lose us the game.

[Blair]

*order

[Blair]

I think you probably want to resolve the stronger scumread first because if today's flip is town then I probably don't want to shoot at all.

[Blair]

Official Vote Count 2.HAMMER

Lynching

With 10 votes in play, it takes 6 to lynch.

popopopopopopo

(6): NorwegianboyEE, Looker, Blair, Dunnstral, LicketyQuickety, popopopopopopo

*HAMMER*

NDMath

(1): Nauci

Truth

(1): Glitch

No Lynch

(1): Truth

Not Voting

(1): NDMath

Mod notes:

• Dunnstral replaces mavsfan41.

[/area]

Based on the final vote count from yesterday, when we remove all expired players, we are left with two groups:

On Wagon:

(in order)

Looker
Blair (Vig) --- Counterclaimed Popo
Dunnstral

Off Wagon:

Nauci
Glitch
Truth
NDMath

I think it's probably fair to assume one scum would have bussed (how often do you NOT see one bus when scum fake claims a known town role?)

It is also probably fair to assume one scum was off the wagon (since Popo self-hammered)

I have lower confidence in the latter but it's still more likely than not.

The question for the on-wagon group is: Do you think scum bussed early and vote parked (Looker) or jumped on after the counterclaim (Dunnstral)?

[Blair]

Why shouldn't we?

[Blair]

I'm starting to think Truth's Mason buddy is just Truth talking to a mirror.

I demand credit for this.

[Blair]

I think Dunnstral is most likely mafia for the way mavsfan attacked po early but then asked about why people were voting po when other people actually started voting him, and he started calling it a policy lynch instead of looking at the actual reasons.

VOTE: Dunnstral

I actually agree with you here that 551 looks pretty bad in context now that we know Popo was scum (Mavs was voting for Popo, then four other people vote for Popo, then Mavs switches to GuiltyLion without even acknowledging that he is exiting the Popo wagon).

[Blair]

VOTE: NdMath

I like the look of 1944 from the parts I've skimmed so far and I've been thinking this lurking is his scum meta

I think the last few posts by Truth where he's trying to really sell there being a mason who thinks differently from paints a bad picture; Blair is still alive to get nightkilled so I don't get what he would be thinking if he was town, and he only claimed under pressure today

I can't quite put my finger on it, but I kind of hate this post.

[Blair]

Trouble is we have three slots that haven't given us much to actually sort them with. (Truth, NDMath, Looker)

[Blair]

I'm on the side of not voting Truth today because I can imagine this sort of stunt coming from town, I'm pointing out the parts that leave me skeptical despite that

Yeah, that's what I didn’t like about it. The fact that it would ping my scumdar regardless of Truth's alignment.

(If he's town, you're voting elsewhere while setting up a mislynch in the next phase [no way he's getting night killed] - if he's scum you're voting elsewhere while going on the record as scumreading him)

[Blair]

Unless the Popo wagon was all town, there is scum between {Looker / Dunnstral}

Looker voted for Popo before I counterclaimed, based on Norwe's claim, and never moved his vote after that. He also opposed my plan to leave Popo alive and let the real vig shoot him if he's lying. I would think scum would favor this plan, as if buys them time and they may have had roles to interfere with the town vig.

Dunnstral supported leaving Popo alive but opposed the part of my plan where we tell Popo where to shoot. He ultimately joined the Popo wagon, but only after I counterclaimed. This is pretty much exactly what I would expect from scum in this scenario.

VOTE: Dunnstral

C-1

[Blair]

Also worth noting that when Norwe asked directly for a vig counterclaim, Dunnstral opposed this.

[Blair]

Glitch, please don't hammer Dunnstral until everyone weighs in on the other important topic that came up today that I don't really see much discussion around:

We now know for a fact that

Truth fake claimed Miller.

Do we believe a Townie fake claims Miller? Because conventional wisdom says 'No' for obvious reasons, and I'm not sure I buy his explanation that he threw the Miller bit in to make his Mason fake claim more believable.

[Blair]

Matter of fact, UNVOTE: Dunnstral because this topic is important and I've seen quick hammers in nearly every game since I came back this year.