Mini Normal 2149 | Philosophers | Over

[GuiltyLion]

Not Voting

(9)

: Truth, Glitch, Nauci, Candy Shop, GuiltyLion, mavsfan41, Cat Scratch Fever, Rozyroz, osuka, LicketyQuickety, Looker, popopopopopopo, NorwegianboyEE

aite y'all which of you are voteless

VOTE: NorwegianboyEE

hi nEE!

Thanks, fixed.
~Deimos

[GuiltyLion]

this is our third game together, we've been both scum and both town

[GuiltyLion]

this is our third game together, we've been both scum and both town

Nice. So I can lightly TR you for your vote on Norwegian since I have played with him as Scum twice.

I think it's a little early to be TRing me just for that but I'll take it

[GuiltyLion]

alright time to read this game

[GuiltyLion]

GuiltyLion, can you please come in and obvtown it up soon. Your RVS entrance coupled with disappearing hasn’t exactly filled me to the brin with confidence regarding your slot.

weren't you just chastising Quick not 4 hours ago for pushing me for weak 'activity' reasons?

[GuiltyLion]

you're literally going to give me an aneurysm if you keep talking about the game, you, and your buddies the way you are. it's giving me an almost unbearable urge to put my head through the wall

I feel like this is a disproportionate response to newbies doing newbie shit

like yeah Truth's reasoning isn't great but to get this riled up about it? feels performative

[GuiltyLion]

Where's that early game energy Guilty?

spent elsewhere, but it's here to stay now!

[GuiltyLion]

I don't know what fucking planet you're living on, but if 210 doesn't very directly contradict 195+198 then I don't know what the fuck to tell you

I am reading. I don't remember everything. I am suspicious of Osuka as well so I can help here.

VOTE: Osuka

How could you possibly have missed that? It's on the same page you said people were too focussed on your claim that I pointed out Osuka is too focussed on your claim. How exactly DID you miss that?

he actually can be forgiven for missing your "push" because honestly I'm staggered that you dared call it a push in the first place

What would you call it besides a push? I did say it was a push, but the fact that you focus on my wording instead of my actions tells a whole lot more about you then me. It was pretty clear that I put pressure on you. call it a push, call it pressure, call it Scum hunting, doesn't really matter what you call it. It's pretty clear you keep majoring on the minors. First it was my word choice, now it's something about how you personally categorize stuff, meanwhile, you HAVEN'T actually put any pressure, pushed, Scum hunted really anyone in this game at all except me based on a technicality that is beyond weak. For lack of a better term, it's a bad push.

VOTE: Osuka

For the contradiction of pushing me and not Truth.

and there it is, the classic scum meltdown into omgus

there's a lot to unpack here. in order: you didn't even cast shade on me. You literally just said "this post is kinda scummy and over the top" and proceeded to do ~literally fucking nothing~ about it, other than using it as leverage to defend yourself vs truth's own pseudo-push.

"the minors" are where people who are at least halfway competent slip in this game. the way you say things often reveals much more than the things you're actually saying (or omitting). Even if completely ignoring the fact that I actually did exactly what you suggested in 191 (i.e., pushed someone else - just happened to be you), i find it very difficult to believe that the sequence in 195-198-201-202 topped off by 208 comes from town

you got overly defensive way too quick and tried to spin the situation as if i was the offending party, when in fact you very directly contradicted yourself after making a very noncommittal poke at me to use it elsewhere in the game, then flipping right back to whatever version of it was most convenient for you at the time

Truth said they play elsewhere so I don't think they're new

are you thinking of Candy Shop? I don't remember Truth saying they played elsewhere

[GuiltyLion]

lmao ignore the quotes

[GuiltyLion]

I didn't see anything I would consider OTT.

Just to be clear for everyone else, the "nothing OTT" game that Quick purportedly just skimmed involved Osuka and Formerfish going so completely over the top with mocking 2 players' posts (and themselves) that 7/9 players in the game replaced out then and there, and at least 1 sitewide ban was given.

eh okay given Nauci's meta defense of osuka I suspect the performative thing is NAI

I remember I played with osuka once a few years ago and didn't remember this level of intensity but that game you linked is a lot more recent

[GuiltyLion]

Yeah okay I have Nauci and CSF as my strong townreads, Quick and osuka prob town.

Norway feels really awkward and stiff and I don't think he's actually advanced the game meaningfully, I'm keeping my vote where it is

[GuiltyLion]

i'm starting to have serious doubts that you're mason

Man i’m loving the vibes i’m getting from this game already.
This should be entertaining.
As for Truth’s claim i don’t usually see scum planning to make a miller mason claim within very short time of game start, so unless this is some next level WIFOM play by scum i’m inclined to believe the slot for now. Even if i think some of their posts have been a bit awkward.

First two lines feel like scum tryna just like... comment on the game, and then I don't like the way he hedges throughout - "inclined to believe" feels like awkward scum-writing-about-their-fake-thoughts rather than just actually having them.

Quick, if you are town i implore you to abandon this push. It’s quite a reach to assume someone is scum for claiming miller mason, and then suggesting they will only tell the truth when they’ve already stated their name has no bearing on behaviour.

"I implore you to abandon this push"? Norway I don't remember you ever speaking so awkwardly formally like this in our games together?

Oh, you are trying to dialog with a SR. That's interesting. "shoot first ask questions later"?

Having a dialogue with your scumread is natural and has many benefits to town. Don’t like how you’re trying to portray it negatively here.

Shade but no vote or further pressure. It's not clear to me what Norway's read on Quick really is - he constantly talks to him as if he townreads him but then what's the point of a post like this?

Please no. Stop arguing for no lynch.
I can’t take having to explain why it’s a dumb idea.

This vibes to me like a mafia response to someone advocating for No Lynch - contrast how others helpfully at least gave some reasoning for why no lynch is bad, this is just LAMIST.

only later he decides to jump in:

If you are no lynching you are basically throwing the game and wasting your slot and town’s chance to win. (Assuming you are town.)

scumdar firing hard on the awkward "(Assuming you are town.)"

I already called this out but this progression is bad, these posts were FOUR HOURS apart:

It’s been 8 hours and you’re voting GL based on inactivity?

GuiltyLion, can you please come in and obvtown it up soon. Your RVS entrance coupled with disappearing hasn’t exactly filled me to the brin with confidence regarding your slot.

[GuiltyLion]

anyway I don't think a lot of great stuff happened otherwise in these 12 pages and I'd like to get more of a foothold in the game tonight, I'll be around for the next 3-4 hours so hmu and let's jam, especially the cats cause I want CSF to townread me

popopopopoppopopoppop I'm also townreading

haven't read the Glitch Wall yet but I did think that 'fake millers' in lieu of 'fake masons' thing was sketchy

[GuiltyLion]

P-edit: GL's tunnel on Norwegian seems ill founded. Norwegian seems Town from seeing them as Scum twice recently. This looks to be a pretty easy push on Norwegian, who IS actually questioning things and Scum hunting. Might not look like much, but it's way less of an agenda based play than I am used to seeing from Noway!Scum. It also gives GL the excuse to keep his vote where it is.

really, cause he "seems scum" from seeing him as Town recently to me!

Can you quote the specific posts where you think Norwegian is scum hunting?

[GuiltyLion]

How is that scum hunting?

[GuiltyLion]

didn't you just say you've played with him? You really think the dude hasn't seen enough of your play to have an idea of the answer to that question?

[GuiltyLion]

alright, well I guess we'll have to lynch scum without you then

[GuiltyLion]

yeah I think I could switch to Glitch too

[GuiltyLion]

Why are you townreading popo? I don't have a read there

eh you know at the time I thought Nauci shade was likely to be a genuine against the grain town scumread and his mechanics talk felt pure, but rereading his ISO altogether holistically and reconsidering they're not really great reasons

I also don't think the interactions with Norway are likely to be S-S, but then again, m a y b e

[GuiltyLion]

if you'd like to comment more specifically on the things I pointed out and the thought process I gave, you are welcome to!

[GuiltyLion]

I'm more of a "yeah I see how he could maybe be scum, but a few things he did struck me as less likely scum and I don't think he looks like scum with my other scumread" on popo

[GuiltyLion]

This is like classic scum meta of GL. He’s literally unable to play well as scum, so he starts his reappearance with the most lame shade i have ever seen on my slot.

no thoughts on... literally everything else I've posted?

You're going to regret making that "he's unable to play well as scum" comment, I assure you. Because I am going to dedicate a lot of time and effort to this game, and adhere to my 'obvtown' meta

[GuiltyLion]

he starts his reappearance with the most lame shade i have ever seen on my slot.

this also feels exaggerated, for the record

I am sure you have seen lamer shade

[GuiltyLion]

GL's first post actually pinged me hard, but i held back on commenting it until i'd seen what he would be up to. Since i've clearly seen his bad intentions by now there's no point concealing it.
Making a "RVS" vote like that on a random familiar slot and then leaving without doing any solving is an archtypical scum entrance i've seen a couple times by this point. Especially on my home forum. I can't explain it well. But if GL flips scum i'm going to celebrate my ability to see right through shit like that.

Take a look at post 16 for me crumbing that i would take this stance.

"crumbing" that you would take a stance?

I'm not gonna try to get into a huge slapfight with you, I'll see whether other people buy all this bravado from you or not

[GuiltyLion]

Norway is trying reeeaaaaalll hard to act

super

confident that he caught me

[GuiltyLion]

I like GuiltyLion's case and may follow him for a while. Let's vote the person so he feels more pressure when he comes back and then has to respond while being a little self-conscious.

I don't feel pressure from a case on me that's as bad as GuiltyLion's.

for somebody who "doesn't feel pressure" you sure felt the need to ramp up your activity and argue with every point

[GuiltyLion]

You answer my questions about what my supposed scum motivation for everything is.

bruh it's early D1 I'm not trying to hang you for 'scum motivation' when you haven't even

done

anything, I'm pointing out that you feel really awkward and fake in a way that does not jibe with my experience with you previously

[GuiltyLion]

You seemed so sure of your read on me, then you're casually suggesting you could switch to some easier mislynch.

here's what's worth responding to

is this a townread on Glitch? why?

[GuiltyLion]

I suppose if i were to ignore your huge chunk of nitpicking you would call that scummy as well?

no actually I would have found that far townier than what you did!

[GuiltyLion]

No. It's expressing suspicion at your attempt to switch focus from me to Glitch when you've already cased me with a long post.

but you said Glitch is a mislynch, which suggests you think he's town. Why do you think that?

and for the record, I wasn't "attempting to switch focus", I was signaling to CSF that I liked her questions and what she was doing

[GuiltyLion]

Because i read you as scum and therefore i view all your interactions with extreme prejudice.

and that's not what you did in our last game together

this one!

I remember much calmer, more chill posts - such as this one!

Anyways, let's talk about Glitch. Why did you say he's a mislynch?

[GuiltyLion]

GL's first post actually pinged me hard, but i held back on commenting it until i'd seen what he would be up to. Since i've clearly seen his bad intentions by now there's no point concealing it.
Making a "RVS" vote like that on a random familiar slot and then leaving without doing any solving is an archtypical scum entrance i've seen a couple times by this point. Especially on my home forum. I can't explain it well. But if GL flips scum i'm going to celebrate my ability to see right through shit like that.

you know what I'm going to just wreck this one post in particular and then let you know that I could do this with literally every post of yours if I wanted and I am not doing so only out of interest of keeping the game readable for others and because I'm a generous man

Let's start with the "RVS" vote point. I was the

first to thread

. I normally vote somebody who has posted and pinged me in whatever way when I get to a game late, but here, I had absolutely zero information and decided to vote randomly, I picked somebody I knew and felt comfortable jamming with if we're both town and said hi.

You're suggesting this is somehow scummy enough to catch me off of literally my first post because I then "left" the thread. Did it ever occur to you that... I have things I do outside of this site? Last night I watched Just Mercy (important/great movie btw, highly recommend it to you all) with my girlfriend and then ate an edible and got really stoned and thus in no condition to play any more mafia. Since this game ~literally~ just started, and I was also in a recently completed Blitz game that did demand effort/attention, I figured I could come back and tryhard later when I needed to, like, you know... today. the very next day in real life.

Finally, if you were

truly

confident that you caught me, you wouldn't feel compelled to hedge like you did in the last sentence. "IF GL flips scum, I'm gonna celebrate" like ok bud, you know I'm not flipping scum. If you were town and thought you caught scum and were proud of it, you'd be bragging already and asking others to join you, not awkwardly trying to pretend like you're already proud yet still introducing uncertain tone into it and suddenly switching to future-thinking ("I'm going to celebrate" vs being in the process of actively celebrating).

[GuiltyLion]

Here's the last Mini I played as town where,

oh wait a minute, I hadn't even thought to check this myself,

I was
a) town and
b) first to thread and
c) I voted Auro (somebody I know fairly well, we've even recently hydraed together), and
d) said hi!

GOSH WHERE HAVE WE SEEN THAT BEFORE

[GuiltyLion]

here's my last scumgame. ez win

[GuiltyLion]

and for the record, I voted somebody I knew there too! I think maybe this is something I just tend to do as either alignment!

[GuiltyLion]

No, I would like you to drop the snark and actually engage with me and answer this question, meaningfully:

Anyways, let's talk about Glitch. Why did you say he's a mislynch?

[GuiltyLion]

I already answered the question if you’d pay any attention.

you didn't really, you basically said Glitch is a mislynch because I suggested I could see myself voting him. Does that reasoning apply to any slot, or specifically just Glitch?

@LQ - Norway's not wrong, my town game is generally better than my scum game, I have a hard time replicating the amount of posts & tryhard I can generate as town. Where he went wrong is to lock himself into a tunnel assuming that I am

not

going to post a lot and tryhard this game

[GuiltyLion]

I think my strengths as scum are tonally sounding town and avoiding the obvious 'gotcha's of getting baited into bad pushes or betraying that I'm informed in how I interact/comment with players.

Where I'm weak is sustaining presence/effort - as town I jump in on a bunch of stuff and take the lead and tend to be a pretty prominent figure in the game, and this is just really hard for me to do as scum because I spend so much energy on making sure the individual posts themselves don't sound scummy. So if I feel vaguely kinda town, but I'm surviving well into the game, haven't pushed a lot of lynches/cases, and am in the bottom 1/2 or 1/3 of postcount, I'm probably scum. When I'm town my post rate is consistently 2-3x more.

I'm aware this is something I'm gonna have to try to fix in my scum meta, but the fact of the matter is that I'm just way, way, way more engaged in the game as town, on a soul level, and talented players can usually pick up on that.

[GuiltyLion]

I like GuiltyLion's case and may follow him for a while. Let's vote the person so he feels more pressure when he comes back and then has to respond while being a little self-conscious.

I don't feel pressure from a case on me that's as bad as GuiltyLion's.

for somebody who "doesn't feel pressure" you sure felt the need to ramp up your activity and argue with every point

Hol up

Didn't you shade him for not addressing your accusations point by point when he flat out called it bs?

Are you now shading him for then going and doing that?

Say what now

I posted the first thought to pressure him further cause all he had given at that point was "this is classic scum GL omegalul" and hadn't bothered to respond to the actual substance I had put into the thread. That was not an invitation for him to then go on a Crusade to Spin Literally Everything I Ever Post as scummy

and I was being honest when I said later that if he had just ignored me I would have seen that as townier. The first 'shade' was me putting more heat on him, not me saying he's scum for not addressing my accusations.

[GuiltyLion]

GuiltyLying also left without answering my question which i helpfully reminded him to do.
Scum claiming.

my dude, when you posted this it was 1 am and I had gone to bed. See also this post where I said, 5 hours earlier, that I would be around for the next 3-4 hours:

I'll be around for the next 3-4 hours so hmu and let's jam, especially the cats cause I want CSF to townread me

I also frankly am not going to answer the question, because it's loud and clear that your intent is just to argue with me and paint me as looking bad rather than actually get useful info from it. If you don't think Nauci and CSF are town, tell the thread what you think they've done that's scummy, and we can hash it out. If you think they're town then you shouldn't care why I think they're town, either I'm scum and they're me TMIing real townies, or I'm town and we agree on townreads. Either way there's no point in talking about it except to try to further shade me, which I'm not all that interested in.

[GuiltyLion]

I just found it odd that popopopopo immediately accepted the voting alliance without questioning, and that this in turn was accepted without questioning. It felt alignment indicative to me but I couldn't fathom in which direction without doing some heavy meta lifting

If Norway is town then popopopopopopopopopopopopopopopopop is likely scum, especially given the hop on me which I'll get to

[GuiltyLion]

It's also bloody hilarious that he calls me out as "tunneling" when that's basically what he's been doing himself. Town!GL is usually much more subtle and takes a look at the whole game, he doesn't double down on a shitpush.

my dude

the game hasn't even been going for 2 days yet

you're just salty I opened with a scumread on you

and I don't know where the "more subtle" idea comes from? I definitely will take people head on as town, all the time.

[GuiltyLion]

Norway is trying reeeaaaaalll hard to act

super

confident that he caught me

This post oof
This is caught scum posting

Is this really what you want your legacy to be when I flip green? Why doesn't town!GL make that post?

Do you disagree with me that Norway was, in fact, trying real hard to act confident that he caught me? Or are you just shading me cause I was being snarky?

Norway is trying reeeaaaaalll hard to act

super

confident that he caught me

Finally, if you were truly confident that you caught me, you wouldn't feel compelled to hedge like you did in the last sentence. "IF GL flips scum, I'm gonna celebrate" like ok bud, you know I'm not flipping scum. If you were town and thought you caught scum and were proud of it, you'd be bragging already and asking others to join you, not awkwardly trying to pretend like you're already proud yet still introducing uncertain tone into it and suddenly switching to future-thinking ("I'm going to celebrate" vs being in the process of actively celebrating).

So is he trying really hard to seem confident or is he hedging? You criticize norwe for doing one thing and then you come at him for doing the opposite too.

This is a pretty bad post here popopoppopopopop. I think it should be clear what I was saying: Norway was

trying

to seem confident despite not actually being so, that's the point. The key word is "

trying

". My argument was that if he

was

confident, he'd be less likely to have hedged in the way that he did, there's all this bravado until he says

"if"

I flip scum then he'll give himself those back-pats he wants to give himself.

[GuiltyLion]

The other thing I don't like about popoppopoopoppopo's vote:

You previously said Nauci was "forced as fuck" and were voting her. Then she quotes one, yes ONE, post of mine she doesn't like, and votes me, and your response is to put me at L-2 with no hesitation? Did your read on Nauci change? Do you think she just decided to lolbus me cause Norway wants to play like he's some RVS god, even though I later linked a game where I opened the exact same way as town? It seems pretty dissonant to me!

VOTE: popopopopopo

[GuiltyLion]

I have only played 1 game with GL and it was a newbie he replaced into like 2 years ago so I can't even remember his alignment

we also played another newbie where you replaced in and you scumread me and never finished reading D1 where I caught scum

then we lynched the cop on D2 and town won on D3 before I even had a chance to post

[GuiltyLion]

sorry and to be clear we were both town together in that one! which I hope is the case here too!

[GuiltyLion]

those are some good questions & points Candy Shop

townpoints for thee

[GuiltyLion]

here's my "taking a look at the whole game" reads for Norwegian:

Townies: CSF, Nauci, Lickety, Candy Shop
don't feel like voting today but maybe a scum: Looker, osuka
has not played the game yet: rozyroz
self-resolving: Truth
could see myself voting today: mavsfan, glitch
one of these two is scum: Norway, popopopopoppopopoopp

p-edit: What am I misdirecting away from? I replied directly to the latest two people that voted me

[GuiltyLion]

Now GL is trying to spin things in an entirely different direction, this is known as misdirection.

do you really see nothing suspicious at all with popopoppoppo this game, or how he casually hopped onto me?

assume I'm town for a second, how does that look to you?

[GuiltyLion]

I don't, because i think there have been plenty good reasons to vote you.

uh, what? Can we revisit these again:

1) You claim my RVS entrance is scum. I have since linked a game where I opened the EXACT SAME WAY as town.

2) You claim I don't have the energy/ability to play scum at high effort well. This is true! I have since posted 40+ times (my post count now exceeds that of my most recent scum game, for the record), and I have also made the point that it's only been 2 RL days

3) Nauci and Popo claimed I contradicted myself. I gave succinct explanations for both of those contradictions, the first being that I don't think it's scummy to not reply to a post by post scum case on you and I was trying to pressure you, the second being that there was no contradiction because my point against you was that you were trying/faking confidence rather than actually having it

If you're town here, and I'm trying to play with the idea that you are in good faith to possibly catch onto scum sheeping you, you're making it pretty fucking hard to play with you this game Norway. You got tilted hard just because I opened scum reading you and cased you and now you're dedicating all of your effort trying to get me lynched and I'm not even convinced you genuinely think I'm scum, suggesting I'm scum for not posting in the thread for a few hours, suggesting I'm scum by making really vague claims about my meta that I don't even know how to address. I advise you shape up or this will end with one or both of us getting lynched.

[GuiltyLion]

ell that should be obvious it will make me look bad.

further, I don't care how it makes you look, I care whether you think popopopoppoppoppo might be scum sheeping you onto the leading wagon. I asked you explicitly to assume that I'm town so you can try to walk through his ISO and possibly work with me and show me what you see. Your response suggests you're seemingly incapable of even assuming I'm town for a hypothetical, that's a really dangerous and bad way to play the team game.

[GuiltyLion]

You're not my psychiatrist, why are you telling me this: "you don't believe you've caught scum" BS and considering i: "might be town" at the same time? These are inherently incoherent thoughts that just prove all the more how you're not considering my slot from a town perspective.

I don't believe you've caught scum because of the way you talk, dude. You display this over the top arrogance/confidence when I don't think that should be really justified, and then at key times you still hedge.

And I am considering you might be town because that's what good town players do. I'm not so arrogant as to assume I always catch scum with my first scumread on D1. If we're TvTing we're creating a really easy game state for scum to exist without pressure.

What about any of this is inconsistent? Why do you keep trying to make seemingly every fucking thing I do be a scumpost? I know you're a better player than that, I

know

you understand the value of questioning yourself about whether you're wrong, trying to see what the game looks like if certain slots are Actually Town even when you're scumreading them.

[GuiltyLion]

EBWOP - I don't believe *that you believe that you've caught scum

[GuiltyLion]

[pencilling in an "at least" in front of my 'one of these two is scum' tier in my readslist]

[GuiltyLion]

Here's another question for you to chew on Norway

let's say we are both town. What exactly would be indicators to you that I'm town and we might be wrong on eachother? Would it be me looking at other suspicious slots that are voting me, or would it be me continuing to escalate and maintain a giant 1v1 for the entire day phase?

your "misdirecting" bit really makes no sense to me and I don't know what you actually think I would be doing here in the event that you're wrong and I'm town. If you're at the stage of "literally nothing you do will ever make me rethink this scumread" 2 days and 20 pages into the game, that's a pretty objectively bad way to play mafia, and I honestly would lose some respect for your game if/when I found out you were town. Yes, that's a pretty explicit AtE here, but I stand by it. Your tunnel on me and seeming inability to even entertain the idea that I'm town at this stage is horrendously anti-town and bad play.

[GuiltyLion]

I would also like people who have posted but not bothered to weigh in on Norway v GL (lookin at you osuka & Candy shop) to give some reads on this dynamic

[GuiltyLion]

If you don’t like the fact that your scumread then maybe you shouldn’t have played so bad and started the day off by pushing me for quite frankly, awful reasons.

Nothing you stated in post 302 is scum indicative for me. Yet you played like those were good reasons to vote me.

of course you're not going to say it's scum indicative

my point, using several examples, was I felt you were awkward in how you spoke about things and that you didn't

feel

like you felt the last time we played together. And that I didn't see you actually doing anything to advance the game.

that's inherently a gut/tone-based thing and obviously you are not going to agree with it, regardless of your alignment. that was for the sake of other players, not you. turning it into a war was all your doing, and I still would come around on you if we were able to find common ground on other townreads/scumreads. But instead you decided to a) challenge me on my townreads, who you yourself have not expressed whether you are scumreading/townreading, and b) refuse to engage today when I asked about another slot I now scumread.

[GuiltyLion]

actually sorry, I was lazy, you did say you were scumreading Nauci, so I'm wrong there

[GuiltyLion]

Norway, honestly I'm not really sure how scum me would respond, I'd probably at least at first play it more cool and be more dismissive to not draw attention, but I will fully admit if/when we did start 1v1ing I'd also be likely to turn on the snark and try to poke holes at your posts much like I've done a few times. I maybe would have acted a little angrier at the post where you said I "disappeared" when I went to bed? cause that'd be freebie emotional/political points to score as scum.

to be clear, I don't want to say you can't scumread me, but I'm the leading wagon so what you can do is at least dignify me with entertaining the idea of who is scum voting me in the event that I'm town. I honestly hadn't paid a ton of attention to your vote/push on Nauci, do you think she does the show of voting and then unvoting as scum? I don't tend to see that from scum on D1, and the paranoia about us committing theater felt genuine to me. She's also been riffing on the you/popopopoppopopoppopop dynamic being awkward which I fully agree with. I feel if both of you are town you should be trying to suss each other out more than you have been

[GuiltyLion]

Let’s say Popopo is scum and is approached by a town player that asks them to vote whoever they do. Would they agree? Do you think it’s scum indicative to do so? Why?

Yeah I believe scum would agree there. Agreeing to a vote pact is meme-y and 'fun', which in this current site meta gets you freebie townreads from generation shitposters bc you aren't "trying too hard", and absolves you from any responsibility for your early game votes - look at his response as to me calling him out for voting me.

Or do you think he should be more paranoid about me?

I also think this too! I would say your opening was very much meant to be buddy-buddy with popoopopopopopopopopopopopop, and he had apparently no skepticism towards this whatsoever. That's suspicious

[GuiltyLion]

Why is Nauci town again? I feel like she’s been taking safe stances

I think the way she went about de-escalating Quick v Osuka was both very pro-town in purpose and also in her way about doing it, I really don't see why a scum!Nauci would bother to provide evidence from a past osuka game to show why him flipping out is NAI. That doesn't serve scum at all unless he's literally her buddy

[GuiltyLion]

If you don’t like the fact that your scumread then maybe you shouldn’t have played so bad and started the day off by pushing me for quite frankly, awful reasons.

Soo... IS the core of your case OGMUS?

No.

yes it is Norway don't be ashamed to admit it

and then maybe your reads will benefit

[GuiltyLion]

I think Truth has some moments of pure town throughout their ISO, and I think Glitch's push feels pretty agenda-y.

I sorta vibe with Nauci's sentiment of 'scum wouldn't make a go at Truth today' but at the same time most players in the game have said they're not voting Truth on the basis of the claim, so it's a safe slot to vote park and tunnel to avoid commenting substantially on any of the ~actual~ meat of the game. Also consider if the 'mason' bit was a fib to cover for a neighborhood instead, if mafia is in the hood and aware of that then they can expect the claim of masonry will be exposed as a lie later and plan to bury Truth on that basis later in the game.

I like mavs fans latest posts too, no interest there anymore for today. Looker's last post kinda dropped him in my reads as well

[GuiltyLion]

Her vote on GuiltyLion really surprised me. Based on her posts, I was expecting her to vote Norway.

The GL post Nauci is referring to isn't even that bad imo. It wasn't one of the posts from GL that pinged me anyhow.

I agree it was a surprising vote, but I kinda think that makes it less likely scum, not more. if scum!Nauci is planning to vote me why go through the effort of building up a bunch of skepticism of Norway first, I think she'd project a more consistent narrative than that. Looked to me more like she was tired (as she said) and those posts pinged her the most for whatever reason and she decided to vote entirely on that basis.

[GuiltyLion]

do you have any reads

I feel you're just saying that because it's an easy thing to say.

Looker needs to give some reads/any reads

I think it'd be easier if you just voted me instead of pretending to scumhunt.

butterfly meme

is this distancing?

Most informational flip: GuiltyLion
Secondary options: LicketyQuickety / NorwegianboyEE
Gray Area/Reasons I'm not ready to end the day: Glitch / Candy Shop / Mavsfan / Cat Scratch Fever /

rozyroz

NDMath / Osuka
Comfortable with delaying inspection: Truth / popopopo / Nauci

Why is Nauci town again? I feel like she’s been taking safe stances

I feel like {Glitch | Candy Shop | Mavsfan | Cat Scratch Fever |

rozyroz

NDMath | Osuka} are the safe ones.

---

VOTE: GuiltyLion How many people on your wagon are scum?

it's really odd that Looker votes me here on the basis of being the "most informational flip", when there's an equally juicy popopopopo wagon forming, and he was

just

shading popopopopo as scum in the same post. The vote doesn't align with the projected mindset

[GuiltyLion]

Define "juicy".
How was I shading popopo as scum as opposed to lazy/someone who's only pretending to scumhunt?

juicy - informative

if you're saying he's pretending to scumhunt then you're saying he's scum, IMO. what's the distinction there, why would town ever be pretend scumhunting?

[GuiltyLion]

I can’t help but feel your progression to Popopo was after testing the waters for a Norwegian lynch then going to a much too easy scum linking of Norwegian/popopo. Surely scum won’t be that ballsy to pull off voting pattern like that?

@GL: do you still have a Popopo/Norwegian scum pairing?

I generally don't think it's S-S cause I agree with you, it feels too over the top. I do think it's likely at least one of them is scum though. If I thought they were definitely buddies, I would have just stayed on Norway, the point of switching was to switch gears to pressure popopopopopopopopo while still feeling out what the game state looks like if Norway and myself is TvT after all.

Also, popoppopopopopop's vote, even if it was nothing but a sheep, was exactly where scum would be hopping on my wagon, so that was the main reason my read on him soured so much. I generally don't believe there's a case on me worthy of votes at this point, I've started playing and engaging with the game so the 'activity' tell is out and I've also already shown Norway's RVS reasoning doesn't hold up.

[GuiltyLion]

So GL OMGUSd me and started a counter wagon to deflect attention and his partner cat hopped on innocuously a couple votes in?
Sometimes its just that easy

what attention am I "deflecting"? I will respond to anything and everything - even to tell people that I'm not answering a question - and I'm fighting multiple fronts in this thread, I'm not deflecting anything at all.

[GuiltyLion]

Well first of all, i think it’s town to say he’s doing it for reactions. He also included a reads list afterwards which proves that point. Also i’m getting a distinct feel of his town meta from recent posts. As scum he would probably lurk hard and only pop in to say some irrelevant stuff or try to fake a different progression when he started being suspected/wagoned.

bad reasons for townreading somebody

you're literally just imagining some specific way he would play as scum and then saying because he's not doing that, he's town. How many times have you played with popopopopopopopopop scum?

[GuiltyLion]

Can I get you to reconsider that slot?

Only if i see a damn good case for why another player is scum and why GL cannot be scum with them.

lol

Inflated post counts only are good for towntelling if they have substance. I think a lot of GL’s posts have been shit, so the ratio between good vs meaningless posts from GL is still too high for me to reconsider based on your point.

which of my posts have been shit? Especially outside of posts where I'm calling you scum?

[GuiltyLion]

I thought your push on me was awful and fake.

What specifically do you think was fake about it? I'm pretty sure I can show you many times I've made similar cases as town, dissecting the way people phrase things, like across several years of meta

[GuiltyLion]

also are we all just ignoring NDMath's completely useless catchup/entry?

I need to look into how he plays as town but that was a very scummy replace in

[GuiltyLion]

298
The entirety of 312.
309 310.

What is actually shit about these posts? I like all of them

You were TR Popopo in 304, then change your mind when he votes you. Basic OMGUS.

Yeah bc he literally just hops on a mislynch at the L-3 middle spot and shades me afterwards, then deflects all blame by saying "I'm sheeping Norway for tHe ReAcTiOnS!!"

319
357, 359, 360, 368,

The point of this question wasn't for you to just mindlessly list posts, it was for you to show an actual thought process behind your tunnel

374, 376 and 377. Focusing on a minor point and acting as if this disproves the fact that your entire push was bad and based upon nitpicking shit like: "You sound more formal in this one single post" as a reason to scumread me.

wait what the hell? Me directly answering Quick's question about "link your past town and scum games" is shit posting?

also it's funny how the RVS thing is now a "minor point" when that was initially like a foundational cornerstone of why you thought I was scum, to the point that you were bragging about how you "crumbed" it.

[GuiltyLion]

But it was! In your own fuckin words, dude:

VOTE: NorwegianboyEE

hi nEE!

Early scumread on your slot already. I always vote my best buds when i’m scum to "fit in". You’re clearly trying to mask your deep affections for you with this deceivery and i shall not stand for it.

GuiltyLion starts game off with RVS vote and then keeps it up and justifies it with weak shit to avoid actually having to pretend solving. Ez scum in the bag.

GL's first post actually pinged me hard, but i held back on commenting it until i'd seen what he would be up to. Since i've clearly seen his bad intentions by now there's no point concealing it.
Making a "RVS" vote like that on a random familiar slot and then leaving without doing any solving is an archtypical scum entrance i've seen a couple times by this point. Especially on my home forum. I can't explain it well. But if GL flips scum i'm going to celebrate my ability to see right through shit like that.

outside of this, the only other main point you have is that you didn't like my 302. Whoop-de-fuckin doo. I've made cases or reads on every other slot in the game and have clearly demonstrated that I'm legit solving by now, and the best you've come up with is to constantly throw shade at me, even to the point of childish name-calling, and pretend like your scumread is so axiomatically strong that it shapes how you view every other single slot. it's trash play Norway and it makes it hard for me not to think that I was right and you feel the need to discredit everything I do in order to survive.

[GuiltyLion]

the only thing you did that was worth anything prior to my 302 was to try to convince Quick to stop tunneling on Truth, which while not inherently scummy, is not unfakeable from scum. there was no point to any of the rest of your posts, and they did not affect any of the early game in any significant fashion. fite me about it.

[GuiltyLion]

It also only just now occurs to me that you said my RVS vote pinged you pretty hard, as evidenced by you calling it out at the time, but you didn't bother to vote me and instead wanted to 'pressure' Nauci with your first vote. Why? Why didn't you vote me out the gate to begin with, if my RVS post pinged you so hard?

[GuiltyLion]

Yes I am serious. You claimed later in 347 that my post "pinged you hard". why didn't you vote me if that's the case?

[GuiltyLion]

And why wouldn't i just switch gears to Popopo instead of keeping up a push on you if i was mafia here? You've clearly shown yourself to be willing to switch there. So if i was attempting to discredit your push like you said, all i would need to do is say "ah yes, you convinced me! Popopo is scum!" and your case on me would no longer had been of any relevance. So unless this scenario is exactly me/Popopo scum. Your theory about me "desperately attempting to discredit a case" is flawed beyond measure.

wait what, there's plenty of reasons to not switch gears to popopopopopopopopo, if you're mafia and popopopopopopopop is town

-You might find it hard/difficult to fake convincingly
-You could want to stick with me and see if a popopopopopopopopop mislynch could go through without you, in which case a) GL looks bad and b) you can then play the 'I told you so, GL is scum!!' card on D2
-You might be worried town!popopopopopopopop, or other townies, would find your switch scummy, especially if a popopopopopopopopopopopopopop mislynch goes through

Further, this just reinforces my point, I'm not sure I understand what you're speaking to here. I said you have been attempting to discredit "everything I do", which includes my cases on other players. Your play by not switching to popopopopopopopop is entirely consistent with "minimize GL's voice and spread as much paranoia/doubt about him as possible", which I'm saying would be your agenda if you're scum and I caught you early.

[GuiltyLion]

Pinging means i keep an eye on someone to see if they do more suspicious shit. It doesn't mean i'm going to put all of my cards on the table immediately and vote/scum case/spit someone in the eye just because one of their RVS posts made me raise an eyebrow.

-But you did basically put your cards on the table when you called it out in 16, you just didn't vote.

-Further, RVS is the lowest information state, it is the exact time you want to be generating content and creating information. If you're town, you had a scumread, and chose not to pursue it. Because you don't want to "spit in my eye"? Why should you be afraid of that? Town should not be afraid of conflict and pushing people, that's how you find scum

[GuiltyLion]

Which you seem to not even be considering right now.

I am considering it, that's why we're having this whole conversation. If I was convinced you were scum I'd just be voteparking you and calling other townies to vote you.

[GuiltyLion]

GL seems to be coming up with more and more contrived reasons to keep up an scumread on me.

Also like

I can imagine where you're coming from here, but have some self-awareness dude. Nearly every post you make is trying to get me lynched and shading me, especially a few times when I'm not around in the thread. You have on multiple occasions rejected opportunities to re-evaluate on my slot, even when prompted by other players in the game.

At a certain point it's difficult for me to just accept 'this is town!Norway, but he's locked onto you to the point that he's said he won't reconsider or vote anyone else today, despite you making a whole host of efforts to interact with other players and extend olive branches, despite the fact that you feel you've debunked his case pretty thoroughly, despite the fact that you think you should generally look pretty town to players who know you by now'. So I'm willing to accept that I may be wrong but it's really hard to play a game as town with somebody death tunneling you the whole time and not constantly be thinking and re-evaluating on 'why can't they see that I'm town'.

[GuiltyLion]

especially since we played scum together! Like did you see me make any "shit tier cases" as scum in Nomination? does this play fit the profile of what you expect from me as scum? You said yourself earlier that I can't play scum well. I'm writing witty bantz all over the place on the fly over here, that's not me as scum

[GuiltyLion]

anyway, here's what I'm thinking, cause I'm not sure these past few back and forths are gonna be useful to others

Your play by not switching to popopopopopopopop is entirely consistent with "minimize GL's voice and spread as much paranoia/doubt about him as possible", which I'm saying would be your agenda if you're scum and I caught you early.

I kinda don't think that is the way Norway plays as Scum at all.

I will trust Quick on this and I do think you have a good point that scum!you is probably more likely to just NK me and suck up to me instead of death tunnel me like this. I think your pride was hurt/offended when I cased you and your play is consistent with that. I'm going to try to drop the suspicion for now and try to solve for scums outside of you, and right now that lands me in a pool of {popppopopopopopopop, osuka, NDMath, Glitch, Looker}.

If you wanna keep voting me and trying to get me lynched I can't control that, and I'll try to stop getting baited so much, but I will state as definitively as I can that your scumread on me is going to cause a huge blindspot in the rest of your reads.

[GuiltyLion]

Why the fuck are you townreading Candy Shop?

I think he's playing without an agenda in a way that feels pure

like how often do maf actually open with a push for NL, if there's a scum chat he would have talked about that and his buddies would say it's dumb, I don't think it reads or feels like an intentional dumbtell gambit.

Further, I really liked the way he approached the Truth claim (contrast with Glitch), I think he asked some thoughtful questions without trying to manipulate/spin Truth's play and I feel they show that he's engaged with the mechanics/roles at play, which is consistent with what he said about his past mafia history

The only weird thing is that he hasn't commented on a lot, and I'd like him to participate in the thread conversation more, but I don't smell any scum in his posts that he's made.

[GuiltyLion]

haha you're not wrong I tend to be a bit overly bothered by scumreads/tunnels on me, it's not my greatest trait

[GuiltyLion]

Scratch is scummy independently though, his early play was intentionally inoffensive and his hop on my wagon was very bad.

I literally just played a game with scratch scum which ended right after this game started - https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go - and they felt way more scummy and bland/intentionally inoffensive there than they do here.

I actually give them a fair amount of towncred for the way they scumread me early because I was posting/efforting so much in the other Blitz game as it was ending and hadn't started doing my thing yet here. That made sense from a town mindset

[GuiltyLion]

Does GuiltyLion scumread NorwegianboyEE or not?
If you suspect someone of being scum, would you trust their self-meta?
I don't know if "I'm going to try to drop the suspicion for now and try to solve for scums outside of you" is meant to mean "I think you're scum and I'm going to find your partners" or "I don't know what you are, but I'm going to ignore you for the rest of the day".
I also don't know how one person (Player A) scumreading another (Player B) could give them (Player A) a blindspot.

I think I actually don't scumread him right now at this point

but if he survives a long time in this game and we don't see flips that point to him town, I definitely wouldn't let him live through LYLO

the 'drop suspicion' thing was about ignoring him (mostly) and trying to find scum elsewhere

also, the blindspot thing should be pretty obvious? He's said he won't vote elsewhere unless there's a "damn good case" of why they're scum and why I'm not scum with them, he scumreads Nauci because he thinks she looks like she was awkwardly bussing me, he just recently said the game "doesn't make sense" from a town!GL perspective. I'm town, so all of his framework for analyzing anything in light of me being scum is inevitably going to be misreading things. He has a 0% chance of voting scum if he stays on me all day today.

[GuiltyLion]

Does anyone have thoughts on my push against Truth? Why are we dismissing it saying that it will work itself out when his play is so bad? I feel like maybe Truth as scum has come out publicly and the other scum in the thread are trying to push attention away from him and steer suspicion in other directions.

I think someone also explained this elsewhere but it's very easy to see why Truth doesn't matter today. He's claimed mason, when we get to later in the game, probably day before LYLO, either mason buddies will confirm him (or will have flipped already), or we'll know the claim is bullshit and we can lynch him then.

[GuiltyLion]

I actually give them a fair amount of towncred for the way they scumread me early because I was posting/efforting so much in the other Blitz game as it was ending and hadn't started doing my thing yet here. That made sense from a town mindset

But i did the exact same, yet you found him to be town but me scummy, hmmm...?

You pushed against Quick doing it, then you said it yourself just four hours later, then you made a whole big deal out of a non-indicative RVS vote and only really put the pedal to the metal when I had already called you out, as a defensive tactic. Further, CSF has since recognized that this is actually my town game, and you are utterly incapable of doing so. Lots of differences!

[GuiltyLion]

-You could want to stick with me and see if a popopopopopopopopop mislynch could go through without you, in which case a) GL looks bad and b) you can then play the 'I told you so, GL is scum!!' card on D2

Nah, i would just nightkill you buddy.

this post is weird, not to mention the fact that nking guilty in that scenario might be a bad idea to begin with

im not sure how i feel about glitch. looker has barely posted so i dont have a read there either

glitch in particular has posts that don't really ping me either way, but i should iso that slot and delve in a little deeper sometime soon

nauci might be scum and couldve been trying to pocket me or something, but now that ive voiced that thought she should give up on that front. doesn't mean she's not scum though

not quite sure how i feel about lion and popopopopoopopoopopppop. it's definitely not svs, maybe tvt (unlikely?) but probably tvs. not sure who the scum there is, though. lion has some slightly scummy vibes if we're talking strictly meta, but i'm not too sure there either

both these posts are really waffley and don't take any stances on anything. There's also more problems with later posts which I'll get to in a second

[GuiltyLion]

he doesnt usually play this defensively when hes town from what i can tell. he seems to be very obviously uncomfortable, which is a tell of scum gl

this struck me as especially fake

first, I've only played one game with osuka before several years ago, so he's not speaking from personal experience here

second, I am well known for overreacting to votes/scumreads on me as town. I don't know where the "obviously uncomfortable" thing comes from at all - my problems with being scum have to do with keeping up and generating a

quantity

of content, it's not a

quality

of content problem. I've played 60-70+ games on site, have been around for years, I'm not someone who's "obviously uncomfortable" when I'm scum. Just less engaged than I am as town.

I think you're just making shit up, osuka. Unless you wanna link me to games you reviewed to come to this conclusion.

VOTE: osuka

[GuiltyLion]

If NDmath doesn’t post anything good soon i wouldn’t mind voting there tbh.

Agreed.

+1 on this too

[GuiltyLion]

I don't buy you thought that it was very scummy unless you can be more specific as to why.

alright, if you ask for it I will indulge!

first things first, I didn't like opening with the "let's see if I can remember why I quoted these posts!", feels really performative and buddying up to the thread. feels like you're mindful of how people are going to perceive your entry

next, a number of your questions are useless, they don't need to be answered and I don't see how they will generate useful content. Often because there's more content later that makes the answers to the questions irrelevant, or because they're just kinda empty things to discuss. It seems pretty clear that Quick thought at least the 'hood' aspect of Truth's claim was legitimate. CSF has posted a bunch of content to work with, who cares about "avoiding" RVS? Do you really think that's the most indicative thing you could comment on in the first 150 posts, or even the most indicative thing about CSF's play in the game?

You also make a number of really hedgey or pointless comments. "Usually pushing for NL comes from scum" (hard disagree btw), "but here it's probably closer to null". Okay? Do you scumread Candy Shop or not? "I find this a likely town mindset though not necessarily townie". What? What's the point of that comment at all?

Next, you just voted/unvoted and peaced out. I think town should be at least putting a vote down in that situation to advance the game, even if they're not fully caught up yet. you STILL haven't voted. What are you doing to actually help catch/kill scum? How does town benefit at all from your presence in the game if you're not participating in any wagons?

Finally, adding your next post into the mix, it's not really clear to me

at all

why you have any of the reads that you do. Your reads list has most of the players in the game in ambiguous nully tiers with no explanation given as to how they got to be there or where you'd feel comfortable voting. Why am I lower than Candyshop, who is lower than everyone else in the game? Do you think I'm more likely scum? If both myself and Candyshop were at L-1 and you were holding the hammer, you'd vote me over Candy Shop - why? Why are Glitch/Nauci below the four players above them? Would you vote to lynch either of those slots today?

None of it is content that is useful to me to help understand your thought process or suggests that you're taking initiative to solve the game for your benefit or anyone else's. It all feels very timid and blendy, like you're just posting a formulaic template of what you think town posts are supposed to look like.

[GuiltyLion]

On the one hand, i’d like to entertain the thought of me/GL being TvT. But i also don’t see that many other major leads than him today. So i’d still really like to lynch there.

This makes it sound like you don't think any of the other 11 players in the game look scummy independent of myself, and we both know that's not true.

Feeling stronger or weaker about his chances of flipping scum?

I took a step back to observe the game from a Town!GL perspective. But then it felt like nothing made sense anymore so now i scumread him again.

Nothing made sense anymore? I'd argue not a lot has happened yet. Quick/Osuka argued a bunch, we argued a bunch, I got a handful of votes, then I suggested popopopopopopopop for not doing a lot and making a bad vote on me and he picked up some votes. We haven't seen any flips, TONS of people could be scum in this game, if we're both town then I don't think scum has felt a ton of pressure yet. It's bizarre to me that you think the only possible explanation for this game state is that I'm scum.

[GuiltyLion]

so I just tried to casually skim through NDMath town/scum to see if he always plays this poorly and it looks like this dude has never been scum yet on MS lmao

however, in his completed town games, he's definitely more goal-oriented in terms of votes/pressure and shows the ability to make insightful analysis, compared to what he's offered so far here.

So I think he's a great bet for scum and D1 lynch

osuka dialing back me, on first take I can kinda see it being town, but I don't like how he didn't really address where the meta point originally came from and I don't like the subtle redirect to Nauci who had started the wagon on him. I also just don't find Nauci's game all that scummy I think she's pretty likely town and a bad vote for today.

I agree with Quick that optimal mafia play is moreso about pushing mislynches than looking town, but I think the argument kinda quickly derailed from the original point about whether Nauci's play serves a scum agenda or not. The reason I think it's town-indicative that she defused the Osuka/Quick argument is because if she is scum then she's removing distractions or potential footholds to vote/engage at no benefit to herself. I don't agree that she gets any real "towncred" from that, as evidenced by the fact that many players are still throwing around the idea of voting her.

Glitch actually felt more townie to me in his most recent post than any of his past ones, he's not a bonafide townread yet and I don't think I'd cry if he got lynched but I'm more interested in osuka/NDMath slots first.

[GuiltyLion]

basically, if you wanna talk slots that are trying to look town for the sake of looking town vs trying to solve, reread what I pointed out about NDMath's posts. They're all fluff, there's nothing that actually leads to development of reads and there's no discernible thought process that indicates that he's trying to solve.

[GuiltyLion]

GL and popopo: is this sort of tunneling typical for NBEE?

that's the weird thing, I don't think I saw him do this in either of our games together. He definitely didn't play this way as scum in Nomination Mafia when we were teamed, that's why I have a bunch of hesitation about continuing to scumread him. At a point it kinda crossed the line for me from 'possibly scum playing defensive' to 'seems pretty unlikely he'd be this aggressive when he knows how bad it'd look if I flipped'.

One thing I also noticed on rereading our town game together, he did mention off-handedly that he was trying to play more chill in that game, which does fit with me remembering him being more chill in that game. And I suspect since it was a Newbie game he was also making an effort to be patient/calm to begin with, I know I certainly do that.

so idk, I don't think I can genuinely scumread him on meta and if anything it's ever so slightly townish to me.

[GuiltyLion]

I think town!Norwegian votes Nauci before osuka’s post. That felt like he was worried he might appear scummy to vote Nauci but after osuka’s post, felt like he could much easily defend his vote or play it off if challenged on it.

I can see where you're coming from here but I kinda just think it's more that Norway's been embarrassed to directly confront and admit the slow but inevitable dawning realization that I am town

[GuiltyLion]

He's misinterpreting norwee's post in a way that's missing what's intended to be a humorous statement and instead interpreting it as norwee scumreading him. I found more of norwee's points valid and their tone townie.

This doesn't feel like honest analysis to me. Let's rewind and look at the Norway post that you say is "intended to be a humorous statement" -

GuiltyLion, can you please come in and obvtown it up soon. Your RVS entrance coupled with disappearing hasn’t exactly filled me to the brin with confidence regarding your slot.

what do you see as the humor in this post? This to me felt like a really bogus shade and I kinda took it personally, my RVS was completely NAI and I 'disappeared' because I had other stuff I wanted to do away from the site. I honestly hate coming to threads and seeing people talk about how scummy I am solely because I'm not available to post at all times, it gets under my skin. So what did I misinterpret here, exactly?

alright, if you ask for it I will indulge!

1. first things first, I didn't like opening with the "let's see if I can remember why I quoted these posts!", feels really performative and buddying up to the thread. feels like you're mindful of how people are going to perceive your entry

2. next, a number of your questions are useless, they don't need to be answered and I don't see how they will generate useful content. Often because there's more content later that makes the answers to the questions irrelevant, or because they're just kinda empty things to discuss. It seems pretty clear that Quick thought at least the 'hood' aspect of Truth's claim was legitimate. CSF has posted a bunch of content to work with, who cares about "avoiding" RVS? Do you really think that's the most indicative thing you could comment on in the first 150 posts, or even the most indicative thing about CSF's play in the game?

3. You also make a number of really hedgey or pointless comments. "Usually pushing for NL comes from scum" (hard disagree btw), "but here it's probably closer to null". Okay? Do you scumread Candy Shop or not? "I find this a likely town mindset though not necessarily townie". What? What's the point of that comment at all?

4. Next, you just voted/unvoted and peaced out. I think town should be at least putting a vote down in that situation to advance the game, even if they're not fully caught up yet. you STILL haven't voted. What are you doing to actually help catch/kill scum? How does town benefit at all from your presence in the game if you're not participating in any wagons?

5. Finally, adding your next post into the mix, it's not really clear to me

at all

why you have any of the reads that you do. Your reads list has most of the players in the game in ambiguous nully tiers with no explanation given as to how they got to be there or where you'd feel comfortable voting. Why am I lower than Candyshop, who is lower than everyone else in the game? Do you think I'm more likely scum? If both myself and Candyshop were at L-1 and you were holding the hammer, you'd vote me over Candy Shop - why? Why are Glitch/Nauci below the four players above them? Would you vote to lynch either of those slots today?

6. None of it is content that is useful to me to help understand your thought process or suggests that you're taking initiative to solve the game for your benefit or anyone else's. It all feels very timid and blendy, like you're just posting a formulaic template of what you think town posts are supposed to look like.

(Numbers Inserted)
1. I am a very self-conscious player. So yes I care how people perceive my entry.
2. Funny enough, both examples you cite are actually looker's words due to it spoilering weirdly.

@Looker

3. Pushing for NL coming from scum is from personal experience it has come from scum more times than town. At the moment in time I wasn't sure, as of completing the catchup I scumread the slot. The comment on tstbs meant that I felt quick's mindset was that of a townie, but I believed it was probably something that mafia could/would fake. I decided to keep it I guess?
4. Voting was accidental due to looker's post quoting weird. I didn't see value in voting at that point in time. I don't get why I can't be not voting in peace when it's still early in the dayphase and I'm not one to case early on. I'm helping just as much without voting in that you got the impression that if I did vote it would be for you and received the same amount of pressure from it, I don't get that point at all.
5. The purpose of the readlist was to summarize the catchup and fill in what wasn't said in terms of reads. I'm more willing to hang the further down the list, and I tend to be a more defensive player in that I prefer not having my townreads hung to getting my scumreads hung.
6. I'm not comprehending this paragraph.

2 and first part of 4 - my bad, these are bad mistakes on my part, fair enough.

second half of 4 - I fundamentally disagree with this though. You're not creating the same amount of pressure, you're shirking the responsibility of putting your money where your mouth is. And you're not putting pressure on other players too! if I hit L-1 that becomes a more difficult game state for scum off the wagon, because now my claim or lynch is potentially imminent and they gotta either explain why they're okay with the situation

or

start defending me. If they don't comment on an L-1 wagon at all it looks really bad on them both at the time and in later days. This doesn't really apply the same way as the wagon has fewer and fewer votes, lots of players can get away with ignoring an L-3 or an L-4 wagon.

5 - I think you kinda missed my point here. I'm not so much questioning the purpose of a reads list in general, I'm more specifically questioning why your tiers exist, they feel arbitrary. Let's just zoom in on Candy Shop for a single example - it's baffling to me that he somehow exists in between Glitch/Nauci and myself. Presumably, all of us are scumreads to you in some form or the other. How and why did you decide to put him in a tier of his own? Why not just have him on my tier, or the tier above? What meaning were you trying to convey by separating the four of us into three tiers like that?

6 - I feel it's kinda clear? None of your post by post comments lead me to understand how you then created that readslist. Largely because of my issues in point 5, I can't trace a clear train of thought from "here's my thoughts as I'm reading the game" -> "here's how my reads got to be where they are".

[GuiltyLion]

From context of this post and that they're my most recent games, I'm assuming the games you Iso'd my slot were open777 and largenomal227.
In open 777 I wasn't 'townie' and 'insightful' until day 2. Day 1 I was scumread by many players and my reads were very omgussy.
In largenormal227 I layed low and didn't do much until I lead massclaim. I definitely wasn't very goal oriented in this game.
Also, I would love to point out the use of 'so far here' as opposed to presumably looking at most of the game in the other games.

I'm not sure why this counts as a defense? Aren't you saying basically that as town you don't start trying until later, and you haven't tried yet here? How is that different from a scum game where you don't try?

and I definitely think you were more goal oriented in large normal 227. Here are your second, third, fourth, fifth posts from that game:

Spoiler: NDMath ISO in Large Normal 227

1. Nope.
2. Mininormal 2125
3. Not sure.

From tone I have hoctac and norwee likely town and manatee likely scum.

Not a strong read but,
Nothing of his rings townie, and I particularly see this post coming from scum.

while we r at it, lets try to make communications clean and fluid
the more content we have, the better
if we need to translate every 2 posts, we r looseing possibilities on interactions

dont like this post it screams "im towny"

in a large game like this, picking some VI to quicklynch isn't a bad idea day 1.

While I dont like the idea behind this post im inclined to believe it comes from town for now

hum, that post seems more townie than scummy than me
idk how good my tone reading is though

What's your thoughts on stan1ey?

I like what he is doing so far. He is clarifying stuff and also trying to scumhunt(votato)
He said he was really good at scum though, but I still tl stan1ey

Similar to what I was thinking when I read his iso so far. His answers to questions all seem natural.

The more word talks the more I like his progression.

This is like page 7-8 or whatever of that game and ALL of these posts stand out more to me in terms of trying to sort players, generate content, and share reads to influence than thread than anything you've done here so far. I'll grant you that maybe it's been harder in this game because pages and pages were generated while you weren't around, but tbh if you're town in this game, you'd be far better served just quoting singular posts and giving takes like you did in 227 than doing the giant fluff walls filled with empty statements like you've given us so far.

[GuiltyLion]

@GuiltyLion you were in that newbie game with Osuka, so what's your take on my read?

I totally agree with it and am glad you cased it as explicitly as you did. If I'm trying to be charitable to osuka, mayyyybe he might have gotten lazier over the years since it's a somewhat old game, but that doesn't negate the fact that his shade towards you (as well as myself) here WAS vague and he's clearly someone with enough experience/capability to bring receipts.

[GuiltyLion]

I'd love to hear from GuiltyLion about those tunnel pivots from Norwegian—it feels so bizarre to me that maybe it's just his style as town because scum would surely be self conscious about the optics around that.

lol I swear I hadn't read this post yet when I posted 874, I swear!

[GuiltyLion]

I'm gonna prodge, I didn't get to have mafia time earlier today and now I'm real tired. glad to see Blair again, hope you're town this time!

[GuiltyLion]

I scumread candyshop because of his no hang argument and lack of things I see town motivation in.

Like Popopo said. This is pretty bad and reeks of scum motivation to scumread a slot just because they suggested no lynch. Candy Shop reads to me like a site flaking noob and i doubt scum!him would have the street smart to pretend he thought no lynch was a good idea to safely lurk. Rather it must have been town motivated because he genuinely used his head and thought it was a good thing to do for town. Ergo he’s not scummy.

Norway I'm sorry I ever scumread you

[GuiltyLion]

We have seen that GL can eagerly jump on anyone who accuses him.

That doesn't really seem like GL's Town meta tbqh.

I actually feel like you have said this exact same bullshit in a past game together when I was town and gettin mad at scumreads, let me see if I can find the game

[GuiltyLion]

hmmm actually I can't find it

which is weird cause I do feel like I remember being very mad about you misrepping my meta one time but alas

regardless

[GuiltyLion]

Fyi I just finished a scum game, mini theme 2145.
By some of the meta argument it supports the conclusion I'm scum this game so I'm bringing it up before someone else does.

NDMath, what specifically about that game do you think supports a meta argument of you being scum in this one?

I dunno about this post, I feel a lot of people jumped at it but I'm having a hard time convincing myself that scum!NDMath actually goes ahead and posts this. I just wouldn't even bring it up at all if it were me. Or if I did bring it up I'd try to talk about how the completed scum game makes me town in this game. This just doesn't feel like something that is likely to come from scum

[GuiltyLion]

how the fuck is mafia supposed to know you're mason? mafia has no setup knowledge other than their own roles

you seem to gravely misunderstand some very core concepts of this game

If he is in fact a mason, it's pretty natural to assume that mafia would know he's town and therefore likely not lying about being a

mason

of all things

I still like the Osuka vote, none of his latest bursts of post felt all that town and this one was really bad shade-for-sake-of-shade

[GuiltyLion]

GuiltyLion casually ignoring this game once suspicion had lowered on him is bothering me tbh.

what am I am ignoring?

I posted several times not 24 hours ago and responded to everything worth responding to. I'm voting one of the leading wagons. I've skimmed over everything since then and a lot of it was pretty useless. I do have a few things I want to address but I'm working right now and haven't bothered to do that yet.

I'm going to quote myself again:

I honestly hate coming to threads and seeing people talk about how scummy I am solely because I'm not available to post at all times, it gets under my skin.

quit shading me like this Norway, it's absolute garbage. I'm one of the most active posters in the game and I'm here.

[GuiltyLion]

Spoiler: GuiltyLion Votes For Osuka

-You could want to stick with me and see if a popopopopopopopopop mislynch could go through without you, in which case a) GL looks bad and b) you can then play the 'I told you so, GL is scum!!' card on D2

Nah, i would just nightkill you buddy.

this post is weird, not to mention the fact that nking guilty in that scenario might be a bad idea to begin with

im not sure how i feel about glitch. looker has barely posted so i dont have a read there either

glitch in particular has posts that don't really ping me either way, but i should iso that slot and delve in a little deeper sometime soon

nauci might be scum and couldve been trying to pocket me or something, but now that ive voiced that thought she should give up on that front. doesn't mean she's not scum though

not quite sure how i feel about lion and popopopopoopopoopopppop. it's definitely not svs, maybe tvt (unlikely?) but probably tvs. not sure who the scum there is, though. lion has some slightly scummy vibes if we're talking strictly meta, but i'm not too sure there either

both these posts are really waffley and don't take any stances on anything. There's also more problems with later posts which I'll get to in a second

he doesnt usually play this defensively when hes town from what i can tell. he seems to be very obviously uncomfortable, which is a tell of scum gl

this struck me as especially fake

first, I've only played one game with osuka before several years ago, so he's not speaking from personal experience here

second, I am well known for overreacting to votes/scumreads on me as town. I don't know where the "obviously uncomfortable" thing comes from at all - my problems with being scum have to do with keeping up and generating a

quantity

of content, it's not a

quality

of content problem. I've played 60-70+ games on site, have been around for years, I'm not someone who's "obviously uncomfortable" when I'm scum. Just less engaged than I am as town.

I think you're just making shit up, osuka. Unless you wanna link me to games you reviewed to come to this conclusion.

VOTE: osuka

I think osuka is scum, and have given several reasons why I'm voting there.

Spoiler: GuiltyLion Immediately Spends a Bunch of Posts Pushing NDMath Instead of Osuka

If NDmath doesn’t post anything good soon i wouldn’t mind voting there tbh.

Agreed.

+1 on this too

I don't buy you thought that it was very scummy unless you can be more specific as to why.

alright, if you ask for it I will indulge!

first things first, I didn't like opening with the "let's see if I can remember why I quoted these posts!", feels really performative and buddying up to the thread. feels like you're mindful of how people are going to perceive your entry

next, a number of your questions are useless, they don't need to be answered and I don't see how they will generate useful content. Often because there's more content later that makes the answers to the questions irrelevant, or because they're just kinda empty things to discuss. It seems pretty clear that Quick thought at least the 'hood' aspect of Truth's claim was legitimate. CSF has posted a bunch of content to work with, who cares about "avoiding" RVS? Do you really think that's the most indicative thing you could comment on in the first 150 posts, or even the most indicative thing about CSF's play in the game?

You also make a number of really hedgey or pointless comments. "Usually pushing for NL comes from scum" (hard disagree btw), "but here it's probably closer to null". Okay? Do you scumread Candy Shop or not? "I find this a likely town mindset though not necessarily townie". What? What's the point of that comment at all?

Next, you just voted/unvoted and peaced out. I think town should be at least putting a vote down in that situation to advance the game, even if they're not fully caught up yet. you STILL haven't voted. What are you doing to actually help catch/kill scum? How does town benefit at all from your presence in the game if you're not participating in any wagons?

Finally, adding your next post into the mix, it's not really clear to me

at all

why you have any of the reads that you do. Your reads list has most of the players in the game in ambiguous nully tiers with no explanation given as to how they got to be there or where you'd feel comfortable voting. Why am I lower than Candyshop, who is lower than everyone else in the game? Do you think I'm more likely scum? If both myself and Candyshop were at L-1 and you were holding the hammer, you'd vote me over Candy Shop - why? Why are Glitch/Nauci below the four players above them? Would you vote to lynch either of those slots today?

None of it is content that is useful to me to help understand your thought process or suggests that you're taking initiative to solve the game for your benefit or anyone else's. It all feels very timid and blendy, like you're just posting a formulaic template of what you think town posts are supposed to look like.

so I just tried to casually skim through NDMath town/scum to see if he always plays this poorly and it looks like this dude has never been scum yet on MS lmao

however, in his completed town games, he's definitely more goal-oriented in terms of votes/pressure and shows the ability to make insightful analysis, compared to what he's offered so far here.

So I think he's a great bet for scum and D1 lynch

osuka dialing back me, on first take I can kinda see it being town, but I don't like how he didn't really address where the meta point originally came from and I don't like the subtle redirect to Nauci who had started the wagon on him. I also just don't find Nauci's game all that scummy I think she's pretty likely town and a bad vote for today.

I agree with Quick that optimal mafia play is moreso about pushing mislynches than looking town, but I think the argument kinda quickly derailed from the original point about whether Nauci's play serves a scum agenda or not. The reason I think it's town-indicative that she defused the Osuka/Quick argument is because if she is scum then she's removing distractions or potential footholds to vote/engage at no benefit to herself. I don't agree that she gets any real "towncred" from that, as evidenced by the fact that many players are still throwing around the idea of voting her.

Glitch actually felt more townie to me in his most recent post than any of his past ones, he's not a bonafide townread yet and I don't think I'd cry if he got lynched but I'm more interested in osuka/NDMath slots first.

basically, if you wanna talk slots that are trying to look town for the sake of looking town vs trying to solve, reread what I pointed out about NDMath's posts. They're all fluff, there's nothing that actually leads to development of reads and there's no discernible thought process that indicates that he's trying to solve.

He's misinterpreting norwee's post in a way that's missing what's intended to be a humorous statement and instead interpreting it as norwee scumreading him. I found more of norwee's points valid and their tone townie.

This doesn't feel like honest analysis to me. Let's rewind and look at the Norway post that you say is "intended to be a humorous statement" -

GuiltyLion, can you please come in and obvtown it up soon. Your RVS entrance coupled with disappearing hasn’t exactly filled me to the brin with confidence regarding your slot.

what do you see as the humor in this post? This to me felt like a really bogus shade and I kinda took it personally, my RVS was completely NAI and I 'disappeared' because I had other stuff I wanted to do away from the site. I honestly hate coming to threads and seeing people talk about how scummy I am solely because I'm not available to post at all times, it gets under my skin. So what did I misinterpret here, exactly?

alright, if you ask for it I will indulge!

1. first things first, I didn't like opening with the "let's see if I can remember why I quoted these posts!", feels really performative and buddying up to the thread. feels like you're mindful of how people are going to perceive your entry

2. next, a number of your questions are useless, they don't need to be answered and I don't see how they will generate useful content. Often because there's more content later that makes the answers to the questions irrelevant, or because they're just kinda empty things to discuss. It seems pretty clear that Quick thought at least the 'hood' aspect of Truth's claim was legitimate. CSF has posted a bunch of content to work with, who cares about "avoiding" RVS? Do you really think that's the most indicative thing you could comment on in the first 150 posts, or even the most indicative thing about CSF's play in the game?

3. You also make a number of really hedgey or pointless comments. "Usually pushing for NL comes from scum" (hard disagree btw), "but here it's probably closer to null". Okay? Do you scumread Candy Shop or not? "I find this a likely town mindset though not necessarily townie". What? What's the point of that comment at all?

4. Next, you just voted/unvoted and peaced out. I think town should be at least putting a vote down in that situation to advance the game, even if they're not fully caught up yet. you STILL haven't voted. What are you doing to actually help catch/kill scum? How does town benefit at all from your presence in the game if you're not participating in any wagons?

5. Finally, adding your next post into the mix, it's not really clear to me

at all

why you have any of the reads that you do. Your reads list has most of the players in the game in ambiguous nully tiers with no explanation given as to how they got to be there or where you'd feel comfortable voting. Why am I lower than Candyshop, who is lower than everyone else in the game? Do you think I'm more likely scum? If both myself and Candyshop were at L-1 and you were holding the hammer, you'd vote me over Candy Shop - why? Why are Glitch/Nauci below the four players above them? Would you vote to lynch either of those slots today?

6. None of it is content that is useful to me to help understand your thought process or suggests that you're taking initiative to solve the game for your benefit or anyone else's. It all feels very timid and blendy, like you're just posting a formulaic template of what you think town posts are supposed to look like.

(Numbers Inserted)
1. I am a very self-conscious player. So yes I care how people perceive my entry.
2. Funny enough, both examples you cite are actually looker's words due to it spoilering weirdly.

@Looker

3. Pushing for NL coming from scum is from personal experience it has come from scum more times than town. At the moment in time I wasn't sure, as of completing the catchup I scumread the slot. The comment on tstbs meant that I felt quick's mindset was that of a townie, but I believed it was probably something that mafia could/would fake. I decided to keep it I guess?
4. Voting was accidental due to looker's post quoting weird. I didn't see value in voting at that point in time. I don't get why I can't be not voting in peace when it's still early in the dayphase and I'm not one to case early on. I'm helping just as much without voting in that you got the impression that if I did vote it would be for you and received the same amount of pressure from it, I don't get that point at all.
5. The purpose of the readlist was to summarize the catchup and fill in what wasn't said in terms of reads. I'm more willing to hang the further down the list, and I tend to be a more defensive player in that I prefer not having my townreads hung to getting my scumreads hung.
6. I'm not comprehending this paragraph.

2 and first part of 4 - my bad, these are bad mistakes on my part, fair enough.

second half of 4 - I fundamentally disagree with this though. You're not creating the same amount of pressure, you're shirking the responsibility of putting your money where your mouth is. And you're not putting pressure on other players too! if I hit L-1 that becomes a more difficult game state for scum off the wagon, because now my claim or lynch is potentially imminent and they gotta either explain why they're okay with the situation

or

start defending me. If they don't comment on an L-1 wagon at all it looks really bad on them both at the time and in later days. This doesn't really apply the same way as the wagon has fewer and fewer votes, lots of players can get away with ignoring an L-3 or an L-4 wagon.

5 - I think you kinda missed my point here. I'm not so much questioning the purpose of a reads list in general, I'm more specifically questioning why your tiers exist, they feel arbitrary. Let's just zoom in on Candy Shop for a single example - it's baffling to me that he somehow exists in between Glitch/Nauci and myself. Presumably, all of us are scumreads to you in some form or the other. How and why did you decide to put him in a tier of his own? Why not just have him on my tier, or the tier above? What meaning were you trying to convey by separating the four of us into three tiers like that?

6 - I feel it's kinda clear? None of your post by post comments lead me to understand how you then created that readslist. Largely because of my issues in point 5, I can't trace a clear train of thought from "here's my thoughts as I'm reading the game" -> "here's how my reads got to be where they are".

From context of this post and that they're my most recent games, I'm assuming the games you Iso'd my slot were open777 and largenomal227.
In open 777 I wasn't 'townie' and 'insightful' until day 2. Day 1 I was scumread by many players and my reads were very omgussy.
In largenormal227 I layed low and didn't do much until I lead massclaim. I definitely wasn't very goal oriented in this game.
Also, I would love to point out the use of 'so far here' as opposed to presumably looking at most of the game in the other games.

I'm not sure why this counts as a defense? Aren't you saying basically that as town you don't start trying until later, and you haven't tried yet here? How is that different from a scum game where you don't try?

and I definitely think you were more goal oriented in large normal 227. Here are your second, third, fourth, fifth posts from that game:

1. Nope.
2. Mininormal 2125
3. Not sure.

From tone I have hoctac and norwee likely town and manatee likely scum.

Not a strong read but,
Nothing of his rings townie, and I particularly see this post coming from scum.

while we r at it, lets try to make communications clean and fluid
the more content we have, the better
if we need to translate every 2 posts, we r looseing possibilities on interactions

dont like this post it screams "im towny"

in a large game like this, picking some VI to quicklynch isn't a bad idea day 1.

While I dont like the idea behind this post im inclined to believe it comes from town for now

hum, that post seems more townie than scummy than me
idk how good my tone reading is though

What's your thoughts on stan1ey?

I like what he is doing so far. He is clarifying stuff and also trying to scumhunt(votato)
He said he was really good at scum though, but I still tl stan1ey

Similar to what I was thinking when I read his iso so far. His answers to questions all seem natural.

The more word talks the more I like his progression.

This is like page 7-8 or whatever of that game and ALL of these posts stand out more to me in terms of trying to sort players, generate content, and share reads to influence than thread than anything you've done here so far. I'll grant you that maybe it's been harder in this game because pages and pages were generated while you weren't around, but tbh if you're town in this game, you'd be far better served just quoting singular posts and giving takes like you did in 227 than doing the giant fluff walls filled with empty statements like you've given us so far.

The funny thing about mafia is that there are multiple players on the scum team! I often have several scumreads despite having tragically only one vote. I suspected NDMath and was in the process of sorting him, and for most of these quotes you posted there was no wagon on him while there was a wagon on osuka and so there was no benefit to switching. Also, several of them are

direct responses

to posts he made with the intent of sorting/interrogating him, that's not me "pushing" him.

Spoiler: GuiltyLion Appears to Become Conscious of This, and Tries to Explain Why He Isn't Voting For NDMath

Fyi I just finished a scum game, mini theme 2145.
By some of the meta argument it supports the conclusion I'm scum this game so I'm bringing it up before someone else does.

NDMath, what specifically about that game do you think supports a meta argument of you being scum in this one?

I dunno about this post, I feel a lot of people jumped at it but I'm having a hard time convincing myself that scum!NDMath actually goes ahead and posts this. I just wouldn't even bring it up at all if it were me. Or if I did bring it up I'd try to talk about how the completed scum game makes me town in this game. This just doesn't feel like something that is likely to come from scum

This is actually a very important post and you're completely misrepping me. I am quite skeptical now that NDMath is scum, primarily because of 986, and that's exactly why I made this post. That's just not a post I really see coming from scum, I find it the most town-indicative thing he's done.

What's your thought on 986? And further, what do you actually think is my scum agenda here? Is NDMath my buddy and I'm just drilling/1v1ing with him earlier in D1 for ~associatives~ but then deciding not to vote him which completely negates the point of a bus? Or is he town, in which case I'm deciding not to vote him just when his mislynch is becoming really easy to justify voting/pushing? Please explain what you see going on there from scum!GL perspective.

[GuiltyLion]

quit shading me like this Norway, it's absolute garbage.

But i like shading you.

I'm dead serious when I say that if you're town this game, my opinion of you as a player has dropped as result of how you've repeatedly engaged with me in bad faith. You were much more enjoyable and pro-town in that Newbie game and you'd be better off trying to learn from that as opposed to whatever this is

[GuiltyLion]

I don't think I ever scumread you hard, I'm pretty sure I just got paranoid of you at points, but regardless, what I'm talking about is the behavior like name-calling, the one-liner shades about bullshit NAI tells (primarily activity), refusing to work with me on other slots, refusing to even consider whether I am town. The Norway I remember from the Newbie was thoughtful, considerate, constantly re-evaluating. The Norway here has been really arrogant and dismissive.

[GuiltyLion]

and I'll grant that maybe that's partly my fault for opening with a push on you that made you feel threatened or whatever, but I really could do without feeling like I'm obligated to post here every 4 hours lest you or Quick or popoppopoppoppo or whoever decide to accuse me of "ignoring" things again.

[GuiltyLion]

I can forgive you for the awful opening, it's just that it's made me perhaps a bit unnecessarily paranoid about your slot.
Sorry.

Hey I'm sorry too, I prob got too fired up again there, I understand being paranoid of me and I can tolerate it to a point (we had a good run of 20 or so pages there just now haha) but please just stop shading me solely for not posting and I'll be alright.

If you want, you can shade me for not responding to specific posts if they've happened after I have already posted, but srsly I promise I'm doing my best to play this game at least once per day and usually a little bit more than that and that's why I get tilted by people suggesting I'm somehow not playing. I'll be around tonight too.

[GuiltyLion]

I mean you can also just ignore my meta argument and just look at the fact that Blair's entire case on me amounts to me pressuring NDMath while voting osuka, she claims to think I'm scum for not selling osuka harder during that period. Which is ridiculous, townies don't need to case their suspects in every post, Nauci had already brought up several damning points against osuka, I had added my own about how his claim about my meta was made up.

I haven't gone back and checked yet but I'm not sure osuka was even really posting in between my vote and times where I was pushing on NDMath, if he was it certainly wasn't to do anything that impacted the thread in any meaningful way. So what does Blair expect town!me to be doing in that situation, throwing out snarky one-liners about how he's still scum?

He's also still the leading wagon, so it's not like I especially need to be championing his lynch right now or anything

[GuiltyLion]

You could also be town, but that leaves the question of why a townie would park his vote on one player then immediately switch gears and zero in on someone else.

like to answer this as succinctly as possible - because I still felt I was gaining new information/content from my back and forth with NDMath, whereas with osuka I didn't feel a need to be talking with him or selling a lynch there to other townies.

anyway I'm off work so I'm gonna go back and remember which posts I wanted to jam with before my afternoon pop in

[GuiltyLion]

actually going back to where I last posted yesterday made me remember that literally my most recent post was this, which Blair just entirely ignored when deciding to case me?

I still like the Osuka vote, none of his latest bursts of post felt all that town and this one was really bad shade-for-sake-of-shade

[GuiltyLion]

Now osuka is a very easy wagon to park a vote on. This is because a) he has been tunneling truth for being stupid, which I think is NAI but also easy to point to as "scummy" and b) his posting other than that hasn't felt super engaged, which again i find NAI on day 1. And c) one of the most active players in the game just said they'd be fine with a wagon there.

I think you make a decent point here about how a lot of the points on osuka

may

be NAI, but what do you think about this post from Nauci specifically:

@GuiltyLion you were in that newbie game with Osuka, so what's your take on my read?

I totally agree with it and am glad you cased it as explicitly as you did. If I'm trying to be charitable to osuka, mayyyybe he might have gotten lazier over the years since it's a somewhat old game, but that doesn't negate the fact that his shade towards you (as well as myself) here WAS vague and he's clearly someone with enough experience/capability to bring receipts.

The newbie game Osuka and I were in just finished, and even though Osuka replaced in halfway through D1 and out halfway through D2, there was significantly more meaty content there. He was wrong about all of it because he was 700% sure that scum was 2 people who definitely weren't scum, but when he raged at them he was still quoting and explaining his reasons more.

Spoiler: Osuka Posts from Newbie 2004

Unless feather is super manipulative, it doesn't seem like he would be coordinated enough to pretend to be new, ask all these pertinent questions, and play the scum role so well. For that I think he is VT.
Gibus is sus to me because of all the vote switching and random accusations. I stand by my opinion about it being sloppy and thats all I can come up with atm. My thought is whether or not you're scum in a newbie game, you don't want to draw attention, by trying to be casual that person becomes more suspicious by their fake nonchalance. of course, in opposition to this is people who don't interact are also sus so like ironcat said, its a catch 22. So if the scum is nervous about appearing one way or the other, it might be easiest to be quiet for the time being.
speaking of ironcat, im on the fence. Post #193 he says he’s okay with votato’s disagreement. I am less suspicious of people who aren’t afraid of standing in opposition to someone like votato who has strong, and well thought out opinions because it reads to me that he isn’t trying to cover up something – his opinion is what it is. His exchange with fish made him look even less suspicious, perhaps only in contrast to whatever was going on with fish and his frustrations. Then again, #243 was a childish rebuttal, but that doesn’t scream scum to me necessarily.
I don’t know how to read brass, votato or Lilith. Brass and votato seem genuinely interested in seeing the game progress in a dynamic manner, while helping people learn along the way. if one of them happen to be scum, they haven’t seemed to let on that they are going to take advantage of people’s feelings of ‘trust worthiness’….yet, but I guess that’s the point, right? Lol.
Lilith hasn’t posted much lately, has she? I wonder why. Ive been suspicious of her without being able to collect my thoughts or any evidence (if in fact there is any) against her yet.
Copycat hasn’t struck me as one way or the other. We also don’t have any point of reference from the previous slot holder…lililil (right?) I wonder if, if that was a scum role cat stepped into, lililil wasn’t active at all before, so im assuming the scum buddy wouldn’t have had help from him either…makes me wonder what it was like as a lone scum and who was looking for a replacement.

that read on feather is a fucking stretch and a half, innit

this feels like a post that's supposed to look like it's good content, but it strikes me as particularly shallow. very noncommittal and truly exceptionally bland

that puts copykat on L-2. Nauci how do you reconcile your top 2 scum reads scum reading each other? Are we just bussing hard? Pretty meh catchup, speaking of iioa

this is completely out of touch with reality and the fact that his two scumreads scumread each other means nothing. Her post was pretty okay and yours is a sad accusation based on a fabricated premise

i liked you for town before but now I'm not so sure

she's trying to pocket me by pointing out me being upset was justified.

Actually I was just saying you were justified as an indirect dig at the post you were talking about because I had run out of direct ways to express it

this strikes me as a particularly snarky way to dodge a response. very odd

I'm sorry I wasn't clear

Oh thats ok, i actually have a list, in my head. So maybe not a list, but an idea.

And newbie as in replacement. I even had that word in my head instead of newbie to be more clear with my objection, but you know, stoned.

this is an obvious attempt at amending a previous post where he said something ("leave the newbie alone, you monsters") and got himself in a bad place ("why are you protecting the guy?"). have you ever seen anyone use "newbie" to mean someone who just replaced in? I know i have never

i'm not quibbling over words. I'm saying that what you did and what I did aren't the same and particularly, the

way

you did what you did and handled yourself when prompted was the primary reason for concern

to elaborate, 758 is weird but it is an order of magnitude retroactively more weird after 762

i'm not sure how i feel about formerfish at the moment. i have thoughts there but im a bit conflicted

more specifically, he clearly knows how to play the game and that kind of play, in general, is nai. I don't see anything glaring so far but i have to admit to not having delved too deep into his play at this point. regardless, he's a bad lynch d1 because if he is town (and statistically, that's bound to be the case) he's definitely someone i wanna have alive

Which reminds me, @Osuka can you explain your read on freddie? All I can find in your ISO is that you called one of her posts bland? Also, are you scumreading formerfish?

i'll get you some post numbers from freddie in a second here, i'm still catching up to the thread.

345 is a bad post that

seems

good at first glance. it's not quite iioa but it's very shallow and feels fabricated, almost as if she was forcing herself to form something remotely resembling a natural read

585 is bad wifom. like wifom and bad reasoning had a kid and it was a terrible, terrible post

886 is a shit tier dodge

893 is unnecessarily defensive and clearly uncomfortable

898 is apologetic. the apologetic, almost friendly tone can be found in other posts and it screams "let me be your friend, fellow townie"

937 is full of bad justifications for bad decisions

969 brings back the apologetic tone in full force

i made the same comment about 345 because i was prompted about it. the way you behave is more than enough justification for a scumread, and 993 is prima facie of a scum role PM

you're WAY too defensive in a deflective way, characteristic of newbscum. talk about substance - what is the substance in your post (and with an omgus to top it off, no less)? I don't have to post a paragraph full of adjectives to justify my scumread, because your posts and tone speak for themselves

to all the newbies in the game, 993 does not come from town. I'm 100% ready to lynch this slot now

Here's a smattering of the posts from that game which I thought were significantly meatier, and I scrolled less than halfway through Osuka's 206 posts made over the course of two half game days. Even when Osuka is calling things "weird," he brought some receipts, to steal your phrase. Not only did he react to specific posts constantly, he reacted to them almost immediately in real time instead of making accusations about posts from dozens of pages ago without pointing out specifically which ones.

A ton of the 206 posts in that game were fluff or calling posts stupid like he did here, but there was, IMO, way more substance on top of those.

I also kinda disagree that the tunneling on Truth is inherently NAI - as I've pointed out several times this game, it often looks to me like osuka is faking the level of outrage/anger he feels towards Truth's posts, and going above and beyond to constantly shade Truth even when it doesn't take a lot of effort to see where Truth's posts make sense from town PoV.

Holy shit and until the post cat made voting osuka he had not mentioned him as a scumread as far as I can tell. So osuka has gone from a gut townread, in a TvT with quick according to cat scratch, to now being cats big scumread.

Now as for the reason for voting osuka, cat scratch cited sheeping Nauci. Nauci isn't even voting osuka, he's voting NDmath, so you're sheeping someone who isn't even convinced of their own point. Id like cat to elaborate on the osuka read, is it just the push on nauci you find scummy cat?

I actually find a lot of times I reverse on my super early game gut town reads, cause some scum put in a bunch of effort in the first few pages to make sure they start okay, then fade off when the game actually gets going. That fits osuka's play pretty well here. I also don't think it's unrealistic to be convinced/swayed by your townreads if they've been pushing it to the degree Nauci has. It's clear with context that Nauci always still scumread osuka and didn't switch because she was suddenly less sure or anything.

[GuiltyLion]

Osuka is getting sucked into the same slap fights I would have probably been sucked into myself if I had subbed in earlier. The optics for these are pretty terrible all around, and I would expect scum to be self conscious enough to know that and take the high ground for town points instead.

also on this, I feel osuka has been picking slap fights with easy targets (Truth) and gets far more quiet/meek whenever a more aggro/experienced player like Nauci or myself calls him out.

[GuiltyLion]

Is this true? I mean, obviously the "leading wagon" part is true, but is the "still" part accurate? I seem to remember that wagon being ranked lower until pretty recently - maybe I'm misremembering, but I feel like the osuka-wagon blitz to #1 was a pretty sudden event.

I also have not gone back to check, but my memory of events is roughly like this:

1) GL leaves popopopopopopopopopopopopopopopop wagon to join promising osuka counterwagon cased well by Nauci, popopoppooppopopop was still leading at this point I think but I had changed my mind on him
2) GL continues to engage with / pressure NDMath because NDMath engaged in a 1v1 with me - osuka still has more votes
3) NDMath starts to get votes from other players, including Nauci, I give a prodge in 1018 because I haven't had time to read everything and think
4) Once I do return to the game, NDMath wagon is larger but I had reversed my read on him due to 986, and stick with my osuka vote and reiterate a call for votes there

Judging by your posts, it sounds like you think I should have switched to NDMath at some point between 2 and 4, but I don't think I was ever active

and

scumreading NDMath by the time he became a larger wagon

[GuiltyLion]

Blair I'm less interested in the discussion around what your osuka read is and when it was expressed, I see your point that Quick is misrepping/misunderstanding you and you're right that you've consistently been against an osuka lynch.

What I want to know in greater detail is

why

. What specifically from osuka is pointing you to the conclusion that he's not scum here? From what I gather from your posts, it seems to be largely a gamestate thing - you don't like the people voting him and you're skeptical that the leading wagon is on scum right now. I see the value in putting some stock into game state based reasoning, but I really don't think anything in osuka's ISO indicates town and I want to know if you have good reasons based on his own play for thinking he's a bad lynch.

[GuiltyLion]

posted a pretty awkward about-face where he declared NDMath was probably town based on... something pretty dubious, and then doubled down on osuka. I don't buy his progression on NDMath

I'd also like to talk more about this. I don't feel I have a good sense of your own read on NDMath, especially not from your response when I asked you about my motives or from how you talk about NDMath in this post here. I've said before, I mostly townread him for 986, that is a post I find very difficult to imagine coming from scum.

You call that dubious - why? What's the explanation for scum!NDMath bringing up a recently completed scum game and saying it looks similar to his play here? I can't convince myself that scum!him wouldn't at all be self-conscious about that, I can't believe he honestly thought it would look good on him if he's scum in both games. This is the reason for my dramatic swing, it's a post that I just don't see coming from scum.

would you be comfortable with an NDMath lynch today? If not, why are you attributing scum motivation to me ultimately deciding the same? I get that it's because I was "shading" a slot that I wasn't voting (I still think the key distinction is that I was pressuring, not shading), but if we can at least agree on an NDMath townread that might help me see your PoV a little better.

[GuiltyLion]

completely agree with popopopopopopopopopopopopopop

it also feels to me like Osuka's trying not to spew by not giving any holistic reads on the game state nor most slots individually

[GuiltyLion]

I like NDMath's 1501 a lot. I had similar feelings about Glitch playing Phoenix Wright Ace Attorney on osuka's behalf, it feels real agenda-y regardless of osuka's alignment.

[GuiltyLion]

The timing of osuka and Glitch's posts on giving reasons for why Cat Scratch Fever is mafia looks really suspicious to me. Is this something they could've prepared in their secret chat and then decided to post and push together? It makes it more likely people will follow and maybe they can save osuka by lynching Cat Scratch Fever instead.

I actually had the same thought on this too. I've never seen two players independently post such similar cases in such a short time frame. (within 5 minutes of each other, really?!?). It seems beyond imaginable that that just happened coincidentally.

My only hangup is like, it also feels

so

obviously coordinated that I'm struggling to convince myself they thought it

wouldn't

look coordinated.

[GuiltyLion]

hey gg all! Well played by the scum team, especially in 7p that was pretty tight for a while there, and there were some quality players in this PL. Thanks to Deimos for modding, was a smooth and enjoyable game!

Glitch if I have time later this week I might give ya some pointers. You had a really solid post or two at one point that pushed me off of you for D1 I'll go back and find it. I can't speak for others and I haven't gone and reread any of the 'bad faith' posts but usually I don't think that means you're playing unethically or anything, at least when I use it, moreso that you're assuming the worst / intentionally misinterpreting someone else's posts/arguments, and that's usually a scum behavior.

[GuiltyLion]

sorry EBWOP instead of some* quality players, I should say *numerous quality players! Would love to play with any of you all again sometime

[GuiltyLion]

It's definitely not unethical play, either. It's pretty good scum play - you almost have to engage in this to some degree as scum if you ever want to convincingly push a mislynch. The art of perfecting it boils down to either A) being so subtle and persuasive that no one notices it's bad faith, or B) making it look like confirmation bias.

wise words