Mini Normal 2149 | Philosophers | Over

[Dunnstral]

As you guys know, I always roll town, and this game is no exception

[Dunnstral]

loyal doctor + vigilante is a combination that is greater than the sum of its parts

[Dunnstral]

Let vig shoot at popopo if he's fake claiming. And if he's not shot we know he's vig

[Dunnstral]

Why do we need to leash his second shot? He's either lying or the real vig, he can choose where to shoot if he's real

[Dunnstral]

An awful lot of people are coming out of the woodwork to oppose shooting Truth.

He claimed mason, maybe that's why some people are opposed to shooting him.

Oh, I also semi think if Truth was Scum he would be posting in the Scum PT which would mean there would be no reason for Truth to "pick up" the EoD mod post.

...But if he's town, he has a mason pt right. So does this argument make sense?

[Dunnstral]

Why are you trying to no lynch?

[Dunnstral]

nah if popo is mafia and is faking being vig then the real vig is going to shoot him

I don't think we can in good faith lynch popo today without somebody else counterclaiming vig, which is not necessary if he's scum and won't happen if he's town

[Dunnstral]

If there’s a real vig i suggest thwm to just claim right now. It’s better to lynch than shoot a scum. Shot’s can be interferred with. Lynches are eternal.

If you think he's mafia, wouldn't fake claiming vig be fishing for a counterclaim instead of trying to survive the night?

That is, wouldn't vig counterclaiming be what he was going for?

[Dunnstral]

Also let's assume nobody counterclaims

Who should we be looking at, without taking popopo into consideration?

[Dunnstral]

Actually... does gunsmith + masons seem weird? It seems strange to me that there would be at least 2 confirmed town in masons, and then essentially a cop role that gets a false guilty on 1 person.

Maybe that does point to mafia having a doctor? Or the mason claim being a fib

[Dunnstral]

If mafia has doctor then it would make the idea of having vig shoot the scum over lynching them even more foolish.

Eh. Does it really matter if we miss out on a vig shot? As long as they shoot again on night 3, we're on evens

[Dunnstral]

laid bare.

Blaire'd, if youw ill.

VOTE: Popopopopopopopopopopo

[Dunnstral]

Because I am town, Blair! Please don't shoot me if you're the vigilante. Does my buddy really need to prove this to be the case?

Was this a rhetorical question?

Dunnstral's plan where we let the vigilante shoot po if he's lying seems like a good idea.

But who else should be lynch today instead? osuka and po were my main suspects.

Choose between

Candy Shop

Blair and

mavsfan41

Dunnstral.

Could you explain what you mean by this please? Is it because he said po instead of Truth there?

VOTE: No one

What is the purpose of this? Why do you consistently feel No Lynches are a pro-town approach?

That's a lot of questions, Glitch. I'll try answering the one about if I think po is mafia.

I think po is most likely mafia but he may be town. If he is town, then it would be really bad if he shot me with his vigilante. That is why I asked the vigilante whoever they are not to shoot me.

Blair ignored my question and I don't like this. I think mafia sometimes dodge questions that are hard to answer.

• Why didn't you answer all of Glitch's questions?
  
• Why are you trying to deflect to Blair to do what you just did?

---

• I don't trust popopo or Blair, so following a plan they've proposed doesn't work for me.
  
• I don't know which major wagons popopo is referring to. Also, how could town being wagoned point to an inactive scumteam?

What is the difference between your play as town and your play as scum?

[Dunnstral]

If your plan was to lynch someone besides popopo that was individually scummy while shooting him at night while you remained unclaimed then yes, that's the plan I wanted to follow

[Dunnstral]

I crumb cop. You claim VT and that i'm faking my guilty. I reveal actually being gunsmith, which completely screwed over your plan,

What is his plan in this scenario?

[Dunnstral]

I don't understand Dunnstral's request to self-meta. When I'm scum I'm scum and when I'm town I'm town.

Your playstyle in this game is similar to our last game I saw you in, where you were mafia

[Dunnstral]

Odd-night makes the mason claim more believeable.

I think I want Truth + Partner to claim today. Blair should make the final call

[Dunnstral]

Or we can take it a step further and mass claim today. We're one lim away from limlo

[Dunnstral]

I don't understand Dunnstral's request to self-meta. When I'm scum I'm scum and when I'm town I'm town.

Your playstyle in this game is similar to our last game I saw you in, where you were mafia

Looker, you ask why I'm wondering about this, right? I can't differentiate your current play from the game you were mafia in.

[Dunnstral]

*understand why

[Dunnstral]

I'm not asking you to listen to a meta argument, I'm asking for you to explain or show to me that you're town in this game with your playstyle

[Dunnstral]

fos: Nauci

Based on the above post feeling like scum entering the day

[Dunnstral]

If you're actually a mason you wouldn't even think of outing your partner unless you absolutely had to. But I think it's clear that if you have a partner it's probably scum. And if you out your partner and we lynch you thinking you're both scum and we're wrong, then at least you're PL'd and we'll confirm your mason buddy.

VOTE: Truth

Glitch, Truth is definitely not making it near LYLO so why don't you just focus on everybody else for now?

Simple - a mason claim is self-resolving: Truth should die tonight or get lynched tomorrow. I'm not fond of people hijacking my attention as a form of distraction. There are still 11 other people that I have to go through.
In post 299, Glitch wrote:

@NDMath: what are your views on Truth?

If it's a neighborhood it must strictly be with candyshop/blair because that's the only way it hasn't been outed yet.
So he's either mason or mafia. He isn't be the hang today, so I'm not gonna give further comment until it's a day we could realistically hang him

I believe the above posts indicate that the players are not masons with Truth.

Blair is the vig, I doubt she's a mason

I'm not a mason.

Truth is lying about his claim.

[Dunnstral]

Blair wasn't killed because there's no utility in shooting tonight.

What do you mean?

[Dunnstral]

I get that now, but it's being used for the reason you weren't killed at night. Unless we think scum are sure you'd be shooting LQ

[Dunnstral]

I'm not a mason.

I'm not mason.

I am neither a Mason nor a Neighbor with Truth or with anyone.

Nope

Does this mean we burn the witch now

Glitch hasn't explicitly said it but they cased and voted for Truth yesterday

[Dunnstral]

That's a lot of questions, Glitch. I'll try answering the one about if I think po is mafia.

I think po is most likely mafia but he may be town. If he is town, then it would be really bad if he shot me with his vigilante. That is why I asked the vigilante whoever they are not to shoot me.

Blair ignored my question and I don't like this. I think mafia sometimes dodge questions that are hard to answer.

• Why didn't you answer all of Glitch's questions?
  
• Why are you trying to deflect to Blair to do what you just did?

I don't think Looker would say "Why are you trying to deflect to Blair to do what you just did?" if he were a mason.

[Dunnstral]

I looked through literally dozens of Dunnstral's past games for lolhammers for that one game and I remember noticing that he was very, very frequently NOT on the lynch wagon as town, but that's not a strong enough memory to help me w/ reads rn

Did he get on the popopo wagon before or after you CCed?

I voted in response to the cc

[Dunnstral]

VOTE: NdMath

I like the look of 1944 from the parts I've skimmed so far and I've been thinking this lurking is his scum meta

I think the last few posts by Truth where he's trying to really sell there being a mason who thinks differently from paints a bad picture; Blair is still alive to get nightkilled so I don't get what he would be thinking if he was town, and he only claimed under pressure today

[Dunnstral]

I don't really enjoy the confusion, but we'll see what happens.

Spoiler:

41% Nauci | 25% Truth | 16% Blair or Dunnstral | 14% Glitch | 4% NDMath

Why 4% NDMath? Why 41% Nauci?

[Dunnstral]

Unfortunately, I am not scum despite questionable vote movements from my predecessor

[Dunnstral]

LicketyQuickety

- town lean his vote on me was bad but quick likes an illogical bad push as much as anyone so it doesnt surprise me he voted me. his incessant pushing on truth early feels town motivated coming from this particular player.

NorwegianboyEE

- town lean i explained already
Looker - town lean responded well to my request for reads even if we dont completely agree

osuka

- null town feels like a saudade type player where he just calls people retards and argues. hard to read, but the argument with truth seemed genuine enough
Truth - any read i have is irrelevant, mechanics will sort. im more inclined to believe the claim than not.
Glitch - null seems like a noob. i find this type of player hard to sort. at least looks like hes trying.
Nauci - null his early posts pinged me as forced, he has been posting more thoughtfully since.
Candy Shop - null dont really have an impression of this slot, this is the NL guy right? ok i checked his ISO. idk
ndmath - null no impression of this slot
mavsfan41 - null-scum him coming in with a vote immediately after i call him out is not a good look

GuiltyLion

- scum lean i explained

Cat Scratch Fever

- scummy his vote was opportunistic and his iso has been bad, handing out townreads like candy and little scumreads is mafia indicative especially early game

[Dunnstral]

Ok.

Popopo Vig Tonight: Truth

VOTE: NDMath

That should clear up quite a few things I think?

vote:ndmath

Votes ndmath here but it's after he's already claimed vig when he knows there's a town vig in the setup

[Dunnstral]

VOTE: NdMath

I like the look of 1944 from the parts I've skimmed so far and I've been thinking this lurking is his scum meta

I think the last few posts by Truth where he's trying to really sell there being a mason who thinks differently from paints a bad picture; Blair is still alive to get nightkilled so I don't get what he would be thinking if he was town, and he only claimed under pressure today

I can't quite put my finger on it, but I kind of hate this post.

*throws up hands*

I'll be honest, I haven't read most of the game. I like/respect Glitch's wall posts and cases, and I was suspecting NDMath due to having played a scum game with him where he very much lurked it out in the main thread

[Dunnstral]

I'm on the side of not voting Truth today because I can imagine this sort of stunt coming from town, I'm pointing out the parts that leave me skeptical despite that

[Dunnstral]

I've been asking Looker for more, I brought up Truth's claim not making sense with the way other players were treating them, and I'm not voting NDMath

[Dunnstral]

I was responding to two things at once

[Dunnstral]

Giant wall of text with a tone of authority = town player

[Dunnstral]

Wow, you guys all turned on me fast. Obviously there's scum in that group of players. Nauci and NDMath had the worst votes, though Nauci unvoted after NDMath did.

VOTE: NdMath

I like the look of 1944 from the parts I've skimmed so far and I've been thinking this lurking is his scum meta

I haven't read most of the game. I like/respect Glitch's wall posts and cases, and I was suspecting NDMath due to having played a scum game with him where he very much lurked it out in the main thread

Giant wall of text with a tone of authority = town player

So let me get this straight. After I spent 5 hours reading, quoting, building a case, writing out my genuine thoughts on why NDmath is scummy yesterday, you show up, having not even read it all, and are like "lol yup big wall, so town! lemme sheep it!" You admit to not having read most of the game. Then how do you know your reads are solid? You said you had a scum lean because of meta, but then what was your tipping point? Something must have changed recently because your past experience with NDmath has been there since you replaced in. What did NDmath do recently that made it to where his scum play with you in the past makes you want to vote for him now, but didn't make you want to vote him off before? Is your meta argument on him actually that strong and he did something that made you think "now he's definitely scum!" Or do you now SR him because there's a giant wall against him that you think makes a great case even though you haven't even read it? I don't like the feel of this at all from a slot that has pinged me as null for a long time.

Chill out, when I started posting I was still getting a feel for the game and then the popopo stuff happened and I got sidetracked talking about that. Today I'm examining everyone with a smaller pool of players

[Dunnstral]

I don't like any of the posts on this page from Dunnstral, and he is voting me for primarily Inactivity.

Am I scum for 'voting you primarily for inactivity'

When I just played with scum you and saw the same thing?

[Dunnstral]

Hey I am still not fully caught up (I

promise

I will within the next 24 hours) so I'm not ready for it to be L-1 as I head to bed rn, even though I think that Dunnstral was doing the vote behavior and barely-surface level "scumhunting" that his scum game consistently exhibits

Also I have to admit I didn't read the recent wall posts, only the crazy Truth posts

UNVOTE: Dunnstral

I think you're misguided because you've only ever seen me replace into games in recent history and I happened to be scum in all of them, and you're attributing my catch-up to being scum when it's just because I replaced in

[Dunnstral]

(Because I disagree with you trying to flip someone who hasn't been on any of the end-of-day wagons despite Nauci flipping osuka but not popopo.)

I don't think NDMath not being on end of day wagons is a strong reason to townread them

[Dunnstral]

What do you mean either of his claims? Do you mean the miller?

[Dunnstral]

Chill out, when I started posting I was still getting a feel for the game and then the popopo stuff happened and I got sidetracked talking about that. Today I'm examining everyone with a smaller pool of players

This is my response to that

Mafia Vigilante is not a normal role and SK isn't in minis, so Blair must be town vig

[Dunnstral]

Dunnstral supported leaving Popo alive but opposed the part of my plan where we tell Popo where to shoot. He ultimately joined the Popo wagon, but only after I counterclaimed. This is pretty much exactly what I would expect from scum in this scenario.

I supported vig going unclaimed and shooting him during the night; a tactic which would have probably worked since popo was night 3 jailkeeper. I wasn't trying to save him like you're suggesting here. It was unclear whether he was fake claiming or real vig but he seems to have been baiting you out into the open and you took it

[Dunnstral]

Chill out, when I started posting I was still getting a feel for the game and then the popopo stuff happened and I got sidetracked talking about that. Today I'm examining everyone with a smaller pool of players

This is my response to that

Mafia Vigilante is not a normal role and SK isn't in minis, so Blair must be town vig

Wrong answer.

I have

intent to hammer

on Dunnstral. I'd really like to hear Lookers thoughts on why he prefers Truth or Nauci over Dunnstral at this point.

Why?

[Dunnstral]

Blair, if you look at the wiki pages for Miller and Mason, you will see what I mean under Play Advice:

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Miller
https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Mason

It does not look like you are supposed to claim mason straight away so I thought it would look suspicious, which is why I tried combining it with miller which it recommends to claim straight away in your opening post.

Why were you looking at the page for Miller if you're vanilla town?

[Dunnstral]

Blair let me know if you want me to claim my role. I disagree that what you wrote in 1990 points to me as scum

[Dunnstral]

Chill out, when I started posting I was still getting a feel for the game and then the popopo stuff happened and I got sidetracked talking about that. Today I'm examining everyone with a smaller pool of players

This is my response to that

Mafia Vigilante is not a normal role and SK isn't in minis, so Blair must be town vig

Wrong answer.

I have

intent to hammer

on Dunnstral. I'd really like to hear Lookers thoughts on why he prefers Truth or Nauci over Dunnstral at this point.

Why?

I would have come around to a vote on NDMath the previous day if Blair hadn't cc'd. He is playing to his scum meta.

[Dunnstral]

As the only person here who's seen me play both alignments, what would you describe as the differences in my town vs scum meta?

You make things happen when you're town, and try to coast as scum. That's been my experience so far; this game you've been coasting.

[Dunnstral]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=82699

This game features less wall posting but the posts have more impact up until he gets night killed

[Dunnstral]

that game was moving a lot slower than this one, and he died during night 2, yet he still has more posts there than in this game

I played a scum game with him where he posted more in the mafia pt than he did in thread

[Dunnstral]

Blair I take it you were not impressed with the meta?

[Dunnstral]

I'm townreading Nauci and Glitch, it's between NDmath, Truth, and Looker for me

[Dunnstral]

I don't understand what you guys mean when you say flipping truth helps us figure out Glitch/Nauci

[Dunnstral]

Looker, there are no mafia vigilantes in normal queue games - it's not a role combination that can exist
There can also be no serial killers in mini normals

It's confirmed that the extra killing power came from town

[Dunnstral]

I feel like I've said this already

[Dunnstral]

VOTE: Dunnstral

Then we should go back to the lynching Dunnstral plan. I did not know Blair was the vigilante so I find it cool I managed to predict it.

Uh... you're lying though, you did know at this point:

My paranoid suspect read is Blair. If she's a mafia vigilante, we will keep trusting her and she can just get ignored of all suspicions,

Even if it's unusual, could it not still show up sometimes, Dunnstral? When is the last time people here played with a mafia vigilante?

VOTE: Truth

[Dunnstral]

I'm here

[Dunnstral]

I'm eyeing 2165

it comes after Blair starts pushing a Truth + Looker team

[Dunnstral]

I'm thinking ndmath is jumping on it because it's a pair that he's not in, and wondering if that means both of those people are town or if it's 1 town 1 scum

[Dunnstral]

So you want to vote and then I follow, or other way around Nauci?

[Dunnstral]

That was a joke

VOTE: NDMath

That's E-1

[Dunnstral]

2167 looks fine to me

[Dunnstral]

That looks like something I'd have posted as maf, word for word until the last line asking not to be shot

[Dunnstral]

Damnit Blair

I channeled with all of my spiritual might to send you the message SHOOT TRUTH GODDAMNIT last night

Anyway VOTE: Truth

Everything about that hammer was just the most blatantly scummy thing I've seen in the history of this game

Looker at this point it's not even bizarre to me that you are FOSing the least suspicious person in the game

It's absolutely garbage that just as I had stirred up conversation that was properly going to help sort people, Truth came in with the hammer as soon as the heat was off of him or his partner.

Anyway I think it's mass claim time if I'm to believe Looker's post

Agree that quickhammer was scum indicative

VOTE: Truth

[Dunnstral]

Nauci almost got the unvote off too

And yes, I always replace in as scum

[Dunnstral]

Excellent use of the 1-shot watcher to see Glitch and I visiting Blair

You should have pushed for a mass claim instead of outting that information immediately. With that said, our own watcher saw you visiting Blair as well, I'm not sure what we would have thought you were

[Dunnstral]

Nauci almost got the unvote off too

And yes, I always replace in as scum

Honestly the statistics of your scumreplacements at this point are entirely past the statistical norm

Maybe it speaks to the replacement rate of scum players vs town players

[Dunnstral]

What sort of fake role claims are normally good?

As town? You usually don't want to fake claim

[Dunnstral]

It's always awkward when you're set up as this big townread on like day 1 and then everyone dies around you and you're still there