Micro 950: Lovers Mafia

[HoldenGolden]

"The greatest happiness is to vanquish your enemies, to chase them before you, to rob them of their wealth, to see those dear to them bathed in tears, to clasp to your bosom their wives and daughters." -Genghis Khan.

VOTE: Genghis Khan for being to god damn good at making love

[HoldenGolden]

who wanna be my lover?

What's the application process?

[HoldenGolden]

The newbie greeting tell strikes again
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Sleepersoul

Now you are new so I'll explain. This is L-3, meaning you have 3 posts to tell me who your scum buddy is

[HoldenGolden]

who wanna be my lover?

What's the application process?

Open.

VOTE: Votato horniest mafia player I know. Is a clear threat.

His sex drive is high but come on. Look at the Khan's history. You are just wrong.

Bad post. This is our next lynch.

[HoldenGolden]

Uh can we veto that for the time being? Especially since that info helps mafia as much as town, and we as town can control when they get it.

[HoldenGolden]

Hm Holden already jumped with votes.

VOTE: HoldenGolden

Spoiler: animated gif

[HoldenGolden]

Here's how I see it:

I agree we should eventually mass claim all lover pairs for the reasons outlined there (although i disagree that mafia doesnt gain as much). However, I do find some addtional value in seeing what arises before the claim in terms of reads and how they hold up after the reveal if info.

I cant go that much in depth, since If we end up doing it I rather not telegraph mafia any clue how to react, but for example: Player A scum reads both player B and C. B and C turns out to be a lover pair. How will A respond?

I will admit I just realized a potential flaw which is that we only have four day long day phases, so this may be to chaotic to try and pull off, analyze, and make a lynch in that short timeframe. Nonetheless, I think it's something that should be considered.

[HoldenGolden]

I say we just lynch sleeper and all hi5 each other for a quality D1.

Would that really be quality though? Sounds kinda boring. There should be more drama!

I won't disagree that point, but best to get obvScum out of the way early........finding your buddy is the tricky part.

That's why you tenderize them; slowly pressure cooking them over the day phase until they bark out their partner like a snitch.

@HoldenGolden Whatever we do, we should only claim if everyone claims. Your theorycrafting is already giving me headaches. I think massclaim right away will make everything simpler for everyone, giving a net benefit to town since we outnumber mafia.

If people agree, sure. We can do it now. All I'm saying is to delay an universal mass claim to gather more info to help town after the claim then what we would get mass claiming now.

Would you like to claim your mafia partner while the rest of the crowd debates?

[HoldenGolden]

I'm sure my lover and I can adopt you drew. File a divorce and we can harmonize in a polyamorous relationship.

[HoldenGolden]

Follow the cop is a weak strategy. It never works at all. That's why they changed the newbie setup years ago so cops can't be followed.

Plus I CC: I'm a lover watcher. Nobody is allowed to make love without me watching. There can be only room for one invest role in this town.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: votato

[HoldenGolden]

Its 2020. Dont role shame me.

Votato what do you think of mass claiming?

[HoldenGolden]

Yeah like even with my plan I'm advocating to just delay it prior to the day 1 lynch rather than skip over it entirely until day 2.

[HoldenGolden]

"The greatest happiness is to vanquish your enemies, to chase them before you, to rob them of their wealth, to see those dear to them bathed in tears, to clasp to your bosom their wives and daughters." -Genghis Khan.

VOTE: Genghis Khan for being to god damn good at making love

I didnt say that. This was post seven?

[HoldenGolden]

hmm in general im not a fan of it. at least not on day 1. the only thing we gain from claiming is associations, and we dont want to be speculating based on associations pre-flip. so day 2 we can do it if we want, but today nono. day 1 scum are somewhat in the dark,

but day 2 scum know who all the pairs are so at that point you lose nothing by claiming.

i feel like people always put too much effort into gimmicking a given setup and too little time scumhunting.

Yeah votato said it. Why did you change the person Gengish?

[HoldenGolden]

Oh drew you were serious with the sleeper scum slip vote?

Is it the newbiescum! Greetings 'slip'?

[HoldenGolden]

SCUMSLIP

votato is in the mindset for getting a mislynch today, which is why he thinks scum will know all the pairs tomorrow. If he's town, he would consider what happens the other 50% of the time when scum is lynched - which he should be aiming for.

I am the punishment of God... If you had not committed great sins, God would not have sent a punishment like me upon you.

VOTE: votato

You need to explain how post 50 happened.

I'm aware of a occasionally glitch that randomly quotes a post, but it quotes it entirely. You either wrote the quote manually and decided to put my name and post number of my post (7) for whatever reason, or quoted my post delated the contents and posted just the scum slip in it.

Neither of those make sense.

[HoldenGolden]

Is Drew's agression AI? I'm kinda liking it.

Why do you like it.

Is Drew's agression AI? I'm kinda liking it.

You consider that agression?

this pings me
VOTE: Drew

Why dont you like it.

It's 5th grade show and tell. Let's get you in front of the class and sharing.

[HoldenGolden]

Yeah I'm fine now with a mass claim since the partically claim stunts what I wanted to do.

[HoldenGolden]

Me and tuxedo are lovers.

Pop corn to Mr. Khan.

[HoldenGolden]

Here's my stance on the Mr. Khan/drew situation.

I don't like Khan's 50 (if I mislink, it's the one with the messed up quote) due to not understanding how the hell the quote was messed up that badly. However, I confess that isnt AI on it's own. What I think is scummy is that Khan prioritized pushing the slip without addressing the mess up quote at the same time drew begun to push.

In my eyes, I can see how scum!Khan did that to fuel drew suspicions of votato if drew is town. I dont really get the associated read yet, since I'm not sure why scum would go through the hoopla of faking a scumslip on someone yet made such a big blunder quote wise as well. I also don't buy it was coordinated over Drew's confusion that it was me with the slip.

[HoldenGolden]

Effectively we are all sudicial neighbors. Town Lovers should treat their pts as such. Scum lovers should just claim scum and be honest.

[HoldenGolden]

Yes I would. And honestly I'm finding his push on sleeper bad but I'm looking into it

What about it are you looking into in particular?

Weak town read on ray

[HoldenGolden]

Votato, picture me and you as scum for a moment. You indicate to me that you want to coordinate a push onto a townie named KASLAM based off a frabicated scum slip. I say sure but then in the thread you post the slip on KASLAM yet its quoted by another player (or vice versa. KASLAM is quoted saying something he didnt).

Would you expect me to go through with it?

The whole execution of the slip logic is so sloppily done that I dont buy it was premeditated between them. Theres not enough there to support that narrative over others like scum!khan fueling town!drew for example.

[HoldenGolden]

Also [un][/uv] VOTE: Mr. Khan

[HoldenGolden]

Votato, picture me and you as scum for a moment. You indicate to me that you want to coordinate a push onto a townie named KASLAM based off a frabicated scum slip. I say sure but then in the thread you post the slip on KASLAM yet its quoted by another player (or vice versa. KASLAM is quoted saying something he didnt).

Would you expect me to go through with it?

The whole execution of the slip logic is so sloppily done that I dont buy it was premeditated between them. Theres not enough there to support that narrative over others like scum!khan fueling town!drew for example.

i mean you're right but at the same time, the fabricated quote seems to pretty clearly come from some sort of scum gambit, and i have a hard time explaining it in any context. so you're right that the coordination story is strange given quotegate, but quotegate is strange in any context, and so i dont think the one can be used to disprove the other

If you think it's very clearly to come from a scum gambit, why drew over khan than? Could you try to explain what the payoff of the scum gambit is? I found the actual quotinggating Nai and it was the promoting the slip at an opportune time instead of answering the doubt to be scummy.

[HoldenGolden]

Oh well thats....um ok.

That's a rule violation but I digress to avoid propagating the rules breach

[HoldenGolden]

An action comitted in anger is an action doomed to failure, people.

Anyway, I am heavily overgamed. Calling in Alexander the Great.

Also side note, fucking Alexander the Great is trash. At least with Genghis Khan he successfully governed his territories enough so they could be somewhat fuctional after death.

Alexander was a great tactician, but ruler? Pff. Couldnt even invade India.

[HoldenGolden]

Dear lord there better be a good reason the thread has exploded. I expect a full scum team catch or I'll be sad.

I'm currently covered in oil from working in a tractor, so scum has 30 mins to get a pity defense before I come and KASLAM them.

[HoldenGolden]

I'm honestly a little confused at how strong votato and sleeper are trusting each other. I'm a little worried that votato is manipulating sleeper. (I don't see sleeper being scum so if there is manipulation it's from votato.)

I really wish I could link you the exact post from the other game where I became confident in votato's read on me.

I do have a slight wariness towards votato because he initiated this plan that I don't fully understand..... but the trust I feel is strong. It just gets challenged every now and then by logic. I feel that khan and drew are mafia. Logic comes in and causes doubt every now and then but overall I trust the direction this game is going in.

Here's the thing though. Its ongoing right? So how do you know that well?

The bold highlights a paradox I have with you. On one hand, you give this strong ultimatum that your gut town!votato ping is true yet keep undermining it by saying "well logic says nah but!..."

Which one is it? You are hedging.

'Seems to be' implies current events, hard to be actively solving the game when the player has left said game, right?

I will ask again, please someone sum up the case against Genghis ( and now Pooky).

There wasn't a case. Just different reasons to push the slot that was already explained.

Ray stated that they found the lack of explaining the scum slip and popping in to explain it after you picked it up to be suspicious. At least that is what I remember.

I stated that I found it scummy that Khan prioritized pushing the scum slip further without addressing the concern over 50 and directly said that I found the quote issue to be non AI.

Votato I honestly cant understand beyond the quotes.

I can understand you glossing over my reasoning, but did ray, your lover, not mention theirs?

Also, on the flip of this.

Let's play devil's advocate and say Pooky(Genghis) and I are scum buddies, why would I be obviously against his lynch? That would be a bonkers play, and borderline suicidal.

fuck off with that wifom

Ouch, feisty concentrated can of bug spray arent you.

Work with me then. Can you explain the tonal read logic you have on drew if it hasn't been explained yet

[HoldenGolden]

(I'm breaking catch up posts into smaller posts so it's easier to read)

Also I remember seeing this while working on the tractor:

Drew x Khan scum

However Bugspray was playing a private chess game with Genghis Khan in his PT - and Bugspray used the Sicilian defense - and we all know Sicilians are all Mafia.

I swear to god bugs if you are scum and decided to play chess AGAIN in a PT with a townie I'm spraying you on some ants.

[HoldenGolden]

he scared cuz he scum

I think being scared is more townie. You seem really scummy so far. Very happy with my vote on your slot.

Thanks for letting me know you're voting me.

unvote

vote SleepySoul

Die Die Die Die Die

Should've kept your mouth shut but you revealed yourself.

Prepare to be mauled by an angry bear.

I love how before Mr. Bear even begins reading sleeper's posts they are already voting them

I need a minute to actually stop laughing

[HoldenGolden]

I re-read all of SleepyScum's posts in 5 minutes

I don't understand how he is still alive.

I've never seen a more obvious scumbag in my 20 years of playing mafia.

Let's kill this guy go go go

Expect half of the context/the rest of the quotes that you cut out explains sleeper's posts better.

If votato votes on me then he's your scum partner.

...maybe I should just feed you to the bear.

Sleepy I give you one chance to redeem yourself if you're town

pledge your vote to me for all eternity and unvote me

Hold up,

One of your points against sleeper was that he gave his vote to votato. Upon pressuring him, you demand that they give you access to their vote and sheep you?

I like Pooky for a town lean. I don't like his choice of push

Flip. I'm alright with the push target, but scum lean on mr pork

[HoldenGolden]

Can you explain the tonal read logic you have on drew if it hasn't been explained yet

I dunno it feels like drew is trying to "invent" things instead of trying to figure out who is town.

Did you read the catchup post lol? That was meant for bugs.

Have you put all these instances into one post for a case?

[HoldenGolden]

votato has been quiet in the PT so I hope he's coming up with something really townie to post here

This is what I was getting at.

You have this heavenly sent townread on votato, yet you keep expressing doubt in it at every turn.

[HoldenGolden]

Unless khan REALLY did resign because he thought he was outplayed, but used the excuse of being overgamed.

Ok guys here's the trick. Let me use my degree here to show you scientifically what is wrong.



This is a bowl. It represents your skull.

You see how there is nothing in it? This symbolizes the clownfestia going on right now. Logic had gone out the window a long time ago. I suggest filling it with something like soup.

This was brought to you by the English major gang

[HoldenGolden]

Now I am going to go back to page whatever and I want that scum team captured when i get back.

[HoldenGolden]

I'm not convinced drew is town at all. I hope its not my paranoia getting the best of me but the push on votato/sleeper just doesnt seem natural

Can you, or anyone on the wagon currently please give a detailed description with stuff like this?

Consider me an open vote. Win me over. Show me how it doesnt deem natural.

Explain scum motivation by purposely fucking up a quote.

You(sleeper), and no one else tbf, answered this as well.

And then when Pooky comes in throwing body punch after body punch to you, you just cave and cower and follow him to the next convenient wagon, because uh oh....you don't have the balls to keep trying to push that wagon.

VOTE: Sleeper

Because I kinda like drew here

in what fantasy world do you not change your mind when it's obvious the person you're voting is the towniest town to ever play this game

Ok so:

Porks playstyle I'm assuming is to shift focus of their scum reads radically I guess it draw out reactions assuming he is town?

Honestly looking at who made leaps of logic jumps here and started to sheep without questioning would be a good place to start finding scum.

[HoldenGolden]

Unless khan REALLY did resign because he thought he was outplayed, but used the excuse of being overgamed.

Ok guys here's the trick. Let me use my degree here to show you scientifically what is wrong.



This is a bowl. It represents your skull.

You see how there is nothing in it? This symbolizes the clownfestia going on right now. Logic had gone out the window a long time ago. I suggest filling it with something like soup.

This was brought to you by the English major gang

If the bowls empty would you care to fill it?

The density of the bowls are too thick to drill into due to my short donkey height

This is a bowl. It represents your skull.

You see how there is nothing in it? This symbolizes the clownfestia going on right now. Logic had gone out the window a long time ago. I suggest filling it with something like soup.

This was brought to you by the English major gang

I have 3x your posts and I've only been playing for 4 hours - you've been playing for 4 days and gotten nowhere. Sit down and follow my vote, I'll show you how to win this game.

1 its beens two days lol

2 quality over quantity. That's why my lover loves me. Isnt that right tuxedo?

3 will you address the scumreading sleeper for giving up his vote bit then asking for him to give his vote to you problem?

[HoldenGolden]

Hey guys, it's my second game! First game is still ongoing in day 1.

My goal this game is to try not to do anything too stupid on day 1.

This post is more likely to come from newbtown than newbscum in my opinion.

I think https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... 5#p5474325 makes a pretty good argument for mass claiming lovers day 1.

This is the post I was referring to. It's very pro-town to claim lovers that way we know who we're lynching and we're on more even playing grounds compared to scum for info. Sleeper being the first to suggest this makes me think he's town.


The rest of his play just comes off as newbtown. I don't see any scum motivation from him.

This is what I like to see.

I disagree with the opening. I think it's a rather NAI opening that is in the ballpark for newbscum to make. There is also the camp of it being a newbscum tell since scum was proven mathematically to great the thread unambiguously more often (which is a stupid tell imo but still).

Do you not see the possible mafia motivation by having the strong townread in votato? Despite the self doubting of it, trying to purpose that you hardcore townread eachother is advantageous to scum in this set up.

[HoldenGolden]

Heavensent reads are always fraught with doubt.... otherwise how would I improve my intuition and grow spiritually?

God sent us to learn and grow.... if it was an easy read without any doubt, there would be nothing to learn about my intuition.

Step one: Queue Black Sabbath's Black Sabbath and Bloody Sabbath
Step two: Tell the spirits to piss off
Step three: ????
Step four: soild reads
==================
What I'm getting at is you are making a theater of it at this point. Anytime someone mentions something, you publically declare this self doubt. Furthermore, you implying doubt into the thread via asking him to come post in the thread and other stuff like that.

You sound like you are trying to be paranoid rather than actually are paranoid

[HoldenGolden]

Ok so,

Ray I will respond to your counter arguement soonish. I'm getting unhinged and dont wish to pollute the thread in more bowl posts. Despite taking a shower literally an hour ago, I've earned the right to a bubble bath as my brain processes this real quick.

[HoldenGolden]

pooky is the most fun though so pretty good equity already

yo if you guys just woke up and don't want to read through 10 pages of me and drew fighting, here's a summary:



he dead now

...

[HoldenGolden]

I'm vetoing the holden/tuxedo dream town team carry plan btw.

Something isnt right about the gamestate and I need to interrogate my lover because I'm not as sold on him being town yet.

Can people give me reasons they town read him beyond PoE?

[HoldenGolden]

What's with the cockiness? We were wrong, extremely so.

Do you think holdem could be scum? I don't really

I have to wait for Votato, but there is one thing that's pinging not really

ABOUT Holden, but about the game state that makes worried about Holden

.

Lmao

What the actual fuck is this game.

[HoldenGolden]

Nobody put anyone at L2

[HoldenGolden]

Killing people will come. I prefer premeditated murder first.

Father day shenanigans are upon me rn, but I'll explain why soon.

[HoldenGolden]

*sigh*

I said no murdering people while debating is going on with tuxedo.

And what do you do?

YOU FUCKING START MURDERING

[HoldenGolden]

Ok guys I'm busy and tuxedo is playing dark souls.

So welcome to Scumlords got Talent!

We both decided that we want to see you four all duel it out while we silently judge you. The best performing team gets to move on to the finals assuming they are correct and scum is lynched. Otherwise, we will be shutting down SGT.

You must earn our votes! Time is limited.

[HoldenGolden]

VOTE: porkythemagicalbear

Guys I tried to townside. But honestly the best way to help town is to end the game.

[HoldenGolden]

I disagree.

Drew was hardcore town imo. I still dont understand the scumread on him. I was actually preparing to lynch drew in lylo by planting the seeds ray was scum with votato day one. We lucked out there.

Sleeper you didnt do bad, but trust your logic more over gut. There was several points where you correctly doubted your read, and had you heeded that the game could be different.

Tuxedo played great. He had literally the same idea I did early today about the gamestate. Had it not been for pork, it would of possibly spelled disaster.

[HoldenGolden]

Yeah playing deep wolf power scum is my speciality, so this type of game doesn't bode well for me. Votato gets away with stuff because of his playstyle lol.

[HoldenGolden]

I didn't even get to do my gambit of making a strawman case on tuxedo.

[HoldenGolden]

Votato, picture me and you as scum for a moment. You indicate to me that you want to coordinate a push onto a townie named KASLAM based off a frabicated scum slip. I say sure but then in the thread you post the slip on KASLAM yet its quoted by another player (or vice versa. KASLAM is quoted saying something he didnt).

Would you expect me to go through with it?

The whole execution of the slip logic is so sloppily done that I dont buy it was premeditated between them. Theres not enough there to support that narrative over others like scum!khan fueling town!drew for example.

Honestly both me and votato was cheeky as fuck and it made me smile.

[HoldenGolden]

most of my posts are testing for reactions and stuff

when I do a long post its because I have an epiphany and see things super clearly and need to break down the game-state for ya'all

I knew I had to bait a reaction out of the scumteam on D2 - if nobody voted me it would've been a big hint that bugspray was scum - but since there was an attempted quicklynch from 2 people on the same lover pair I knew I had to be targetted by the scum.

Anyway you did pretty good for your 2nd game . That was pretty fun

Yeah I figured that was your playstyle given your flip on the sleeper day 1.

I just took the harder stance on lynching you so that tuxedo would come naturally to the decision to vote you. The best person to convince you of something is yourself after all

[HoldenGolden]

There is a great number of guides on the mafia scum wiki that goes into mafia theory.

Theres also a really helpful guide for town play offsite that I can link if need be. Different system of play there, but I found it to he a good guide.

[HoldenGolden]

https://tl.net/forum/mafia/301748-a-gen ... e-to-mafia

I found it after fangirling about the good old days of broodwar after playing with AGAR. Pretty sure they play plurality lynch mechanics, but the play covers both dominate lynch styles.

[HoldenGolden]

Honestly you just never committed to a single game plan. That was honestly your biggest problem as you wobbled back and forth between your own points and sheeping votato.

Though I think at large, a good factor of why town lost is summed up best by the guide I posted.

Being an obvious innocent is worth a lot more than being an active but confused poster. Don’t babble. If you speak without having a clear goal in mind, you impede the town and decrease everyone else’s productivity. This paralyzes town analysis and decision-making and allows mafia to hide in the chaos. You don’t have to be a super-active poster to prove your innocence or be useful to the town.

You do not need to be useful in an active and eye-popping way. Perhaps due to historical inactivity, players seem to have an unnatural urge to post everything that comes to mind in an attempt to avoid inactivity and keep the ball rolling. However, there are worse things than inactivity, and a game can hardly be called active if it is only the same 8 people repeating themselves in the thread. Your primary goal should be post quality rather than quantity. The game thread is not twitter. You don’t have to reply to every post or question you see with “@PlayerName”.

You should not post without a plan or agenda. The more obvious your agenda is, the easier it is for people to see your innocence. Make sure there is a purpose to every post. You should never post reflexively or impulsively. The content of your posts should flow together naturally while indicating “I am helping the town”.

This games Chaos was mostly town driven save for votato confusing the thread with drew. Outside of playing tuxedo, I didnt really contributed to the fire. If every townie had a clear game plan and only posted what was needed instead of "I'm number 1 poster kekeke" perhaps someone would of saw how full of horseshit votato scumdrew read was.

[HoldenGolden]

(Not to say I'm any better as town as I do shitpost, but still having an agenda you are pushing is good town play)

[HoldenGolden]

I wish bugspray was more active.

And no, I'm not gonna fuck logic.

I just need to balance it in a consistent way with my intuition.

This is good advice, thanks holdem.

Of course. And that's a good takeaway

And some townies just dont bleed town. That's normal. Bugs actually was town from meta reasons, though nobody knew their meta. It is what it is. In normal games, PRs and lynches can clear slots like that.

Pedit: the real solution is to avoid mislynching in the first lynch.

Drew was correct when he said whoever gets the first lynch heavily sets the tone for the rest of the game. As such, day one doesn't need to be rushed the most.

[HoldenGolden]

I would say its more of a reaction test that got a positive.

Intuition/coincidences can be trusted, but they got to be weighed in respect to what's going on. Theres been time I have gut reads or intuition someone is scum with nothing really supporting it (cough cough Tuxedo in brass).

[HoldenGolden]

Lol bugs

[HoldenGolden]

Bugs why do you always play chess with those in pts?

[HoldenGolden]

Oo pick a nice shed. I prefer one with a view.

The hush money I expect in the mail drew.

[HoldenGolden]

@mod the votato/sleeper PT links wrong

[HoldenGolden]

Thanks for the game Beeboy, had a blast. It's a very exciting set up.

Nth to the moon. Moderation was smooth like butter. Scum roles with access to townies thru pts are my new favorite scum role.

Although I do like votato's name change idea.

[HoldenGolden]

Thanks for pairing me with votato, Beeboy!

I think this is a point most people are forgetting.

Both me and votato lucked out getting paired with the only people we have had serious previous game experience with. Without those connections buddying would of been harder.

[HoldenGolden]

Why are you guys still playing mafia?

The game is over my dudes. No need to try to sort each other now.

Remember: I love you both

[HoldenGolden]

Porky, although I recognize what your playstyle is, town didnt. It is what lead townies like tuxedo to get demotivated and shut off their brains and lynch you after we fucked up the quick hammer.

What happen between both of you resulted from miscommunication during day 1 which we let happen. Drew had no fucking clue how to read your read progressions on people like sleeper (which I pointed out) like other townies. Likewise, you were hell bent on convincing townies to self sacrifice to exploitable levels.

I think drew made the right play given what he stated at the time: he trusted ray to be town. As such, his vote on you is the standard townie counterwagon vote. Likewise, I think you coming in and trying to push off the pressure on your wagon was fine.

Even you didnt get me right, so if we are playing the card of "I had tuxedoholden right all along", you failed to deduced who it was after pushing scum!me into a position to win day 1.

Shit happens.

[HoldenGolden]

Yeah that was one of the few times a scumslip actually was correct and wasnt total horseshit logically

[HoldenGolden]

Why not have a day 0 phase where one person is elected to choose who gets paired?

[HoldenGolden]

Why not have a day 0 phase where one person is elected to choose who gets paired?

This would be something players during the day 0 phase vote for

[HoldenGolden]

Hectic I'm sad you left me and brought up Alexander the Great in the process.

[HoldenGolden]

Oh shit I didnt even get to artificially add to the statistics of my 100*% success towntell.

I won the game, but lost the war.

Pedit: prob would if been if I couldnt cha cha real smooth into the block.

[HoldenGolden]

Oh shit I didnt even get to artificially add to the statistics of my 100*% success towntell.

I won the game, but lost the war.

Pedit: prob would if been if I couldnt cha cha real smooth into the block.

I wanna hate you......but god dammit you killed it this game.

You dirty sonuva bitch.

What can I say, I like it down and dirty daddy

(For real though I need to learn how to properly shade people as scum instead of settling on being obv town like i always do.)

[HoldenGolden]

I'm down to try any set up of this again. Though the day zero thing sounds like a bit of drag. No offense Holden, I just think you're dumb and I hate you and your day 0 idea.

No offense taken lol

I only threw it out because I saw it in an offsite game called prison mafia. I know nothing of balance games

Pedit: yeah I see the reason now. I think it could also be cool as well that way since players know in advance who exactly they are bringing with them which leads to a cool metagaming dynamic

[HoldenGolden]

Hectic I'm sad you left me and brought up Alexander the Great in the process.

You brought up some valid points about Alexander tbh. I should've called in my boy Augustus instead.

Augustus is better, but if we are doing roman leaders we can just go with OG ceasar. Dude built a wall to siege a city just to go on and build a second wall to defend against reinforcements. Fucking big brain.

[HoldenGolden]

Hectic I'm sad you left me and brought up Alexander the Great in the process.

You brought up some valid points about Alexander tbh. I should've called in my boy Augustus instead.

Augustus is better, but if we are doing roman leaders we can just go with OG ceasar. Dude built a wall to siege a city just to go on and build a second wall to defend against reinforcements. Fucking big brain.

Not Roman, but Roman adjacent. I'm always a big fan of Hannibal, even if he did kill himself in exile as a complete failure.

Hannibal had some good successes with the poster child being the battle of cannae. There was a reason after all he was close to laying siege to Rome after all. However, as great as a battle tactician he was, logistically his campaign was a nightmare that left Carthage exposed to counter attack by scorpio which they took. Then he fucking lost to scorpio with the same trick he pulled at cannae like a fucking loser.

Points do go to keeping manpower up. His campaign at that point was heavily fueled by mercenaries which was hard to find in mainland Rome as opposed to modern day Spain iirc.

[HoldenGolden]

And let's not talk about King Leonidas. Motherfucker just camped in a choke point with elite infantry and other random folk until the admins came and teleported the Persians behind them.

(Although Meet the Spartans? Good shit right there.)

[HoldenGolden]

Hectic I'm sad you left me and brought up Alexander the Great in the process.

You brought up some valid points about Alexander tbh. I should've called in my boy Augustus instead.

Augustus is better, but if we are doing roman leaders we can just go with OG ceasar. Dude built a wall to siege a city just to go on and build a second wall to defend against reinforcements. Fucking big brain.

Not Roman, but Roman adjacent. I'm always a big fan of Hannibal, even if he did kill himself in exile as a complete failure.

Hannibal had some good successes with the poster child being the battle of cannae. There was a reason after all he was close to laying siege to Rome after all. However, as great as a battle tactician he was, logistically his campaign was a nightmare that left Carthage exposed to counter attack by scorpio which they took. Then he fucking lost to scorpio with the same trick he pulled at cannae like a fucking loser.

Points do go to keeping manpower up. His campaign at that point was heavily fueled by mercenaries which was hard to find in mainland Rome as opposed to modern day Spain iirc.

Yeah, but the Carthaginians were basically setting up Hannibal to fail. Making backroom deals, not giving him the support he needed, and also just losing every battle Hannibal wasn't there for.

P:edit I took classes on historical warfare while at clown college, so if you wanna talk Leonidas and bad comedy films (fight me) I am your man. Don't get me started on how the entire history of greek warfare is them barely winning by luck and then going "well since we won, clearly nothing has to change." and then getting stomped immediately after.

Sadly that is true. I always wondered if his lost to scorpio was fueled by animosity held towards the Carthaginians. If I remember too, his troops at the battle of Zama (i think that's the proper name) was heavily untrained set apart for some skilled infantry.

Ooo lucky. I always wanted to take one, but It would screw up my major/minors. Taking Latin though right now, so interesting to learn Roman culture in regards to war.

(Meet the Spartans is meant to be bad to the point its Good)

Yeah the Spartans imo were overrated. Their tactics at times were questionable, and their failure to innovate or fucking invest in a half decent navy to counter let say Athens was a folly.

Speaking of folly. Have you ever read The March of Folly?

[HoldenGolden]

also is hoctac=hectic?

I process such knowledge, but I only give it out if you pay the Eldritch blood pact.