Newbie 2014: Aesthetic | Game Over

[Town looter]

VOTE: town looter

For losing last game

A good vote to be sure.

VOTE: Mikul

Once scum, always scum

[Town looter]

Do it. JFDI!

[Town looter]

Do it. JFDI!

Are you going to post more than 7 times this game ?

Nah, lurking worked so well last time, so I am going to give it another try. That reminds me, I should probably go afk for the next 2 days.

[Town looter]

You I'm a chubby catholic lawyer who went to church a few years back. AMA

Is Arthur Scum, or just noob?

[Town looter]

He said ask him anything, so I asked him something.

Also slight scum-lean on Mikul. We just played together, he won as scum, I helped him with it as town (well helped his partner by getting lynched in MyLo). He's come into this game cock sure and swinging for the hills. I feel like this confidence is a reaction to him drawing scum again and a feeling of invulnerability. I think Town!Mikul would be playing it a bit more restrained.

[Town looter]

pedit but actually ebwop: sure, gimme a sec. Wasn't an issue last game as I was only one without one.

[Town looter]

Nah, so hence "slight"

[Town looter]

As a note trying to find a "meta" in mafia is one of the worst ideas ever imo. For very new players it's a good idea but I've seen countless games get loss because (x) plays town this way, or (y) is scum that way. Anyone with half a brain cell would tend to work their gameplay around and attempt to use that

My scum-lean isn't really based of meta on you per se, but more kinda pop psychology or something. Given how quiet this game is at the moment, it's about all I have to work with. That or we just lynch Arthur. I'd probably be ok with that too.

1) This site has good players but the pace of the games move like a snail. This is inherently anti town. The less a game posts, the easier it is to fail as town because of a lack of information. Every read someone gives, every vote someone casts is something you can look at in iso at the end of the game to help narrow down scum. So allowing people to coast by and not probe activity is a horrible idea, it's also why you guys lost last game. You allowed Luna at the end of the game to craft a very specific story and go along with the flow. Giving scum time to lurk is always bad

Yeah, but it also makes it hard for less active townies such as myself to contribute to the game, also which is anti-town. I don't disagree with you, but it's a balance.

[Town looter]

EBWOP: Although the current level of activity is stupid - I am not defending that. Spam away good sir.

[Town looter]

@Mikul Alright, I do agree this game is a little too quiet. Spam away I guess.
@looter Same question as votato, why would you lynch me?

Partly a reaction test, partly because your posts could be newbie-cum-scum - your posts have a feeling of anxiety in them, you seem to want to make sure you fit in and say the right thing. My question of Brassherald was semi-serious as I am still fairly inexperienced and wanted to see if your two posts were worth caring about.

Underlined the bits I think come across as anxious:

Tbh Mikul has about 60% of the posts so far, slow it down please. Can't keep up!
VOTE: Mikul

I know this is a dodgy tactic but I promise to unvote

if you slow down...

Wait, I can't do that, we're still in the RVS.

Literally just realised that's the third vote on Mikul. Better UNVOTE: Mikul

VOTE: Anthony, because there can only be one A-man...

[Town looter]

Mikul's last two posts go against my initial read. It's (lol, great pronoun) thinking stacks up.

UNVOTE:

I am reading Mikul slightly town, everyone else null with maybe the odd weirdness here or there that could be indicative of scum. Top weirdness candidates are Arthur and Mutesa.

[Town looter]

Er UNVOTE: Mikul

[Town looter]

VOTE: Town looter You've stated you want to lynch me without reason, and also voted Mikul pretty early in the game over metareading.

Also you've stated you'll be lurking the whole game.

Loads of anti-town plays that scum would do.

FoS: Town looter

Waaaaiiiit. Missed underlined in first skim.

Any reason you are paraphrasing what is fairly obviously a joke so critically?

[Town looter]

@mikul:
Calm down, spamming is subjective. He might see it as spam while you don't. And I disagree with you calling that lazy, excessively flooding makes it hard even for active players to keep up. And flooding *is* a legit strat used by scum, so no need to get offended by mutesea.

@town looter:
All your "good reasoning" is me voting and unvoting Mikul. As for scum not picking up on jokes thats bullshit, I'll bet you're making that up. Cmon, give me at least two examples of that.
FOS'ing brass for noting a well known fact is unreasonable.
To clarify on the lurking, I thought it would be anti-town if you did that. I made a mistake missing the joke and I admit to it.
So really all you have to go on me is:
1) Me not picking up on a joke
2) Me unvoting because I realised I'd put Mikul on L-2. If he only had one vote on him, I would not have unvoted.

Part of me wants to throw Arthur back into null-ville simply because this is a the second time he has read something incorrectly (his unvote, then thinking I am votato). Could be that he's a skim reader.

That being said, he has felt the need to react each time - that anxiety again. Now anxiety/reacting isn't inherently scummy (I did my fair share in the last game), but I do buy the theory of the missed joke (BUT LETS NOT TALK ABOUT IT AND ANNOY BRASS!).

SE question: how hard to we push for claims around here? I did some reading on the forum where Mikul is from, and pushing for early claims seems to be the accepted approach. But I haven't seen that used much here. As I type this I am thinking it's because of the setup... Newbie setup is probably too small to push for lots of claims, esp on d1?

[Town looter]

SE question: how hard to we push for claims around here? I did some reading on the forum where Mikul is from, and pushing for early claims seems to be the accepted approach. But I haven't seen that used much here. As I type this I am thinking it's because of the setup... Newbie setup is probably too small to push for lots of claims, esp on d1?

pushing for claims dp1 is inherently scummy, the place where i'm from is longer really active. It converted into another site full of horrible players and inactivity. If you are reading there for information on how to play mafia, I would really advise against it. The only reason someone should claim on dp1 is they are they lynch target and hope that claiming can stop it

Oh for some reason I thought you played on debate.org with Lunatic. That was where I saw a lot of claims. That being said, they play mostly themed.

[Town looter]

@Porkens: SOP = standard operating procedure?? Also your summary reminded me that votato asked me something and I didn't reply...

Did you learn anything from the reaction test? This is good reasoning otherwise. In particular the nervous unvote usually comes from scum and scum have a hard time picking up on jokes. VOTE: arthur

Yep. Got a couple of good interactions from it, that may be useful down the line. Arthur also turned out to be quite defensive.

[Town looter]

@Town looter, At the start you seemed to be scumreading me the most. You were giving reasons for me being anxious etc., and stated several times you wanted to lynch me. Why not just put your vote down and be down with it? Then you seemed to backtrack and say 'oh maybe he's not scum, but I still think he is.' You not being able to put your vote down makes me scumread you.

I am in no rush to vote. It's still early in the day, and I am still figuring things out - I like to take my time and over think the shit out of every possible scenario. If we were 30 minutes out from deadline and we had no other viable wagons, that would be a different story.

You are also seemingly mistaking my engaging of you in conversation/debate for a genuine scum read - see post 59 for my reads. I am currently trying to figure out if your defensiveness is more likely scum or town.

[Town looter]

Anyone else want to vote me? I'm done with this game. Actually surprised at how smart people think they are, considering all they know is shit. One more vote please. It really do be a case of if town is this dumb, they don't deserve to win. One little tidbit I'll leave you with is that brass just then gave me the strongest scum read. Strategically puts me at L-2, doesn't draw too much attention to himself and gives a half-arsed reason why.

No one thinks they're smart, well maybe they do, but my point is we are trying to poke and probe you because you were/are the scummiest thing we have available. That poking and probing has worked a treat - you have provided a large reaction. Your appeal to emotion (or appeal to something...?) doesn't help matters.

Both votato, myself and others have thrown you life-lines, comments that you could have used to help build a defense and get back on track. You have, mostly, ignored them and proceeded to get more frustrated. I think this is because you are scum (yes, my previous wishy-washyness has gone based on recent posts), and your win condition is being severely jeopardized. I think a town reaction would be more relaxed - Town!Arthur's win condition will still be achievable even if they are mislynched on day 1.

L-1

- VOTE: Arthur -

L-1

[Town looter]

If someone hammers, you are dying next dp and you make this game significantly harder than it has to be.

We will give arthur a chance to claim and use the rest of this dp to keep talking. It's to early to end it

LOL.

But yes, reads from Arthur would be good.

Then if one of the other people not on the wagon wants to hammer after the reads, then I assume that's when he claims?

Based on the response to my earlier question, I don't think he needs to claim right now - reads first.

[Town looter]

First wagon is rarely the daily lynch. We'll dance around and then there will be some people who decide to take a stand on some reason not to lynch the best choice, then we'll end up on a compromise lynch. Whether the compromise is a good lynch is yet to be seen, but its very rare for Day 1 to end differently in my experience.

How many first wagon targets react the way Arthur has thou?

[Town looter]

LOL, if you guys a scum team and win again I am quitting this game for good!

Seriously though, and very quick thoughts because I have to head out: votato and mikul feel decently town, everyone else, including your good self, kinda in the scum bucket. Brass and Anthony strongest scum leans because scum likely on wagon.

[Town looter]

.*snip*

yeah this most likely comes from scum

ELI5 why though? I mean I haven't re-read day 1 yet, so I might be missing some context, but I don't see an obvious "I am scum" in Anthony's post...

[Town looter]

Votato you didn’t answer my question.

Also I am finding this series of lots of questions from Lunatic odd. You seem to be spamming single sentence, low effort, questions.

I am ok being outside any town block given how yesterday‘s votes went down. But right now scum have it fucking easy - low activity, people not really caring about the game, etc.

I’ll throw some time into this when I have some spare time later in the day. I hope everyone else does the same

[Town looter]

Also I am finding this series of lots of questions from Lunatic odd. You seem to be spamming single sentence, low effort, questions.

Why is it odd for a question to be single sentence? Should I post a paragraph to explain my question? lol

Well no, but I don't see a lot of value in you questions either - not really helping town, and could be a tactic to cause confusion. For example, your question about Anthony to me was straight after I said I had a slight scum lean on him because he was on the Arthur wagon. Doesn't really make sense by itself (hence I didn't bother answering it), what exactly about Anthony were you asking about?

[Town looter]

Question while it is fresh in my mind: Mikul, you were town reading me most of yesterday and following a lot of my logic, yet now seem to be scum reading me, any particular reason for this?

[Town looter]

You were right votato, that was a pretty easy read, esp if you iso Mikul first then ignore all his shit as you go through (seriously those phone posts hurt my head...)

Nice to meet yall!! I know we can't stay friendly forever,

but not having to choose a solid vote is pretty calming

.

The dice say Vote: mutesa1

nothing against you m8 just had to do something..

I think everyone has missed the scummiest part of this post. The dice thing is just awkward, but NAI imo, BUT why the fuck is Vexo not calm in the first place? What possible reason do they have to agitated? Town should be pretty fucking chill during RVS by my reckoning. This has pinged me strongly.

VOTE: VexoOssa

Other reads as follows:

Anthony - Noob-town. Not sure I buy the rationale for his wagon. I have the feeling Lunatic or votato (one, prob not both) are pushing another mislynch on a newbie.

votato - Null, leaning town, but I think one of him or Lunatic is scum.

Mikul - Null, very slightly scummy, but POE probably says town. His flop onto me seems suspicious, but generally sounds pretty town. However, I have personally observed him and Lunatic playing a damn good town sounding game.

Brassherald - Mild scum vibes, jumping on Arthurs wagon the way he did doesn't sit right for me. Both confirmed townies called him out at some point too: Arthur in 76 and Porkens in 132.

Lunatic - Mild scum vibes, mostly because of POE with him/votato. Slot was slightly scummy from the one bad post and inactivity, then the wagon on Anthony stuff. I also don't think his posts in the last 24 hours have been helpful at all, but that's not real AI at this stage...

[Town looter]

A few, unrelated comments:

• I am town-reading Anthony because I closely read his posts and feel like they are more newb than scum. Votato isn't wrong in his analysis of Anthony, but after the Arthur mislynch I am on edge and suspect someone is driving another, similar, mislynch. This will probably change once I have my head around your two claims.
  
• This, FWIW, is more my natural style. It is different from last game because last game I was trying too hard. You were also right in your earlier assumption Mikul: I have tried to bump up my activity as it contributed to the loss last game.
  
• When I wrote my read list I suspected Brass of being a town PR (due to trying to fly below the radar) and therefore embellished my scum-read of him. Now that we, apparently, have all the PRs outed, my scum read on him is much stronger - I agree with the active lurking accusations.
  
• I still think Vexo slot is scum. Brass/Vexo would be my guess right now.
  
• Still getting my head around the implications of both your claims. So no comment on this yet.
  
• No CC from me

[Town looter]

Oh and my previous scum-read of Anthony was based on scum being on Arthur lynch, and POE.

[Town looter]

As far as you are concerned, yes, but I don't see why you guys have cleared votato.

I was just working through logic of claim situation. Assuming you and Mike haven't attempted some elaborate scum team gambit based on boredom (which tbh I am not writing off, but putting as unlikely, and would result in CC's), you are town-confirmed as Mike corroborated your story. Mike will be town-confirmed once everyone posts and there is no CC.

Votato I am less sure of. I don't fully understand why you have cleared him. Couldn't they be a goon who just stayed put last night? So my thinking on a scum lead mislynch still holds (except it's now votato only). So that leaves me with:

Probably scum: Vexo and Brass
Possibly scum (but I am town-reading them based on posts): Anthony and votato
Town confirmed (or soon to be hopefully): Lunatic and Mikul

[Town looter]

Anyone else want to vote me? I'm done with this game. Actually surprised at how smart people think they are, considering all they know is shit. One more vote please. It really do be a case of if town is this dumb, they don't deserve to win. One little tidbit I'll leave you with is that brass just then gave me the strongest scum read. Strategically puts me at L-2, doesn't draw too much attention to himself and gives a half-arsed reason why.

No one thinks they're smart, well maybe they do, but my point is we are trying to poke and probe you because you were/are the scummiest thing we have available. That poking and probing has worked a treat - you have provided a large reaction. Your appeal to emotion (or appeal to something...?) doesn't help matters.

Both votato, myself and others have thrown you life-lines, comments that you could have used to help build a defense and get back on track. You have, mostly, ignored them and proceeded to get more frustrated. I think this is because you are scum (yes, my previous wishy-washyness has gone based on recent posts), and your win condition is being severely jeopardized. I think a town reaction would be more relaxed - Town!Arthur's win condition will still be achievable even if they are mislynched on day 1.

L-1

- VOTE: Arthur -

L-1

This also bothers me.

And so it should, given how things unfolded.

The primary intention of this post was to put pressure on someone I thought scummy. It certainly wasn't a "I'm done with Arthur, lynch time!!" post. Votato's unvote bugged me because I thought Arthur needed to post proper reads, claim and justify why we shouldn't lynch him.

If we had a more information to work with I would be comfortable with me as a lynch target as we can afford the mislynch, and it would probably tell us something. However, we're looking like clearing the only 2 truly active people, and you seemingly want to lynch the 3rd or 4th most active contributor (I was going to say 3rd because while votato has more posts than me, I feel I have contributed more content, but by post count alone I am 4th).

[Town looter]

@Mod: What's the deal with replacements?

[Town looter]

No, I am not. I am saying activity is pro-town. Regardless of my alignment, me posting (assuming its not complete nonsense) is likely to be pro-town. Whereas, if Anthony, Vexo or Brass remain in game we will struggle because of inactivity. Even votato has hardly been super helpful or active. Let say the 5 non-confirmed are all equally likely to be scum; keeping votato and I around makes sense from a town POV because at least you will have content to work with late game.

However, this is all irrelevant if we get active replacements who adequately catch up and contribute.

[Town looter]

So ok, the only thing worth discussing before a some activity hopefully appears is why you think I am scum Mikul (or conversely why you think I am town votato).

I think it is useful to have that discussion now because odds are we don't have scum involved in the conversation (well, according to Mikul anyways) - with them out of the conversation there isn't any distortion effects, biases are reduced. (from your POV, sure, I could be scum, but I don't need to be directly part of the conversation).

Town-confirmed gut feels will likely be taken advantage of once replacements roll in.

From my point of view it has to be a style (and/or bad play) thing on my part. I pinged KAAG in the last game, and now I am pinging you. Shit like "Everything about tl bugs me. Literally everything and I can't put a finger on it" isn't going to help town win - in fact last game I am pretty sure it contributed to Cass's vote. In fact I would read your posts as scummy if the whole claim thing hadn't gone down and it being very likely you are town.

So come on, less fast-posting and more thinking: why am I pinging you so hard?

[Town looter]

Urgh, too many "In fact"s. I hate bad grammar.

[Town looter]

My old user name on this site was Lootifer. I think there was one, maybe two, scum games in 2014/15.

I have some games off site as well, but when I tried to dig them up the other day I couldn't seem to find them. You can try if you like: Lootifer username at https://www.conquerclub.com/forum/search.php (they have a mafia games section).

[Town looter]

Nah, I hadn't played Mafia in ~5 years before Newbie 2008.

[Town looter]

it seems that arthur anthony and mikul were porken's scumreads. i was the strongest townread, but that means i might have some incentive to kill porkens and leave that townread locked in and on the record.

A quick re-skim of Porkens big post shows while he thought Anthony was scum, it was predicated on Arthur being scum. Reading between the lines I think he also had a fairly dim view of Brass as well. That being said, drawing reads from an analysis post of the recently deceased is probably a bad idea...

[Town looter]

Porkens came across very competent and town to me. I wasn't surprised by his night kill at all.

His big post, plus 132 were especially genuine imo.

I think he was killed because he was a threat to scum - not from his current reads per se, but likely what he would've come up with had he lived. I mean, as you say, he seemed to be reading Arthur as scum.

[Town looter]

In no particular order:

Mikul was happy then sad.
Porkens forgot about us, then remembered, helped out, then died.
Arthur went bonkers and probably won't play forum mafia ever again.
votato has been succinct.
Mutesa, Brass, Anthony and your slot have all been inactive.
Lunatic arrived and set off my PTSD.

Oh and there was some irrelevant stuff about trackers and jailkeepers along the way, but I wouldn't worry about that.

[Town looter]

Oh and VOTE: Nash

I think you are scum.

[Town looter]

In that case reads would be helpful Brass.

[Town looter]

Also can we please take Brass off L-1? A quick hammer now would be extremely frustrating, and while it is unlikely I don't want it to happen.

I am ok with a Brass lynch (although still think Nash is scummier - post incoming), but there is absolutely no excuse for a hammer without reads and subsequent discussion.

[Town looter]

I skimmed through the pages and realised that post 27 wasn't perceived well.

It's pretty obvious that the alignment known to have a problem with choosing a solid vote and urge to

do something

is the mafia, and any sane player would know this. To think that scum!Vexo typed that down and didn't feel even a tiny urge to scrutinise is a stretch, don't you think? I know for a fact that this slot is town and I can assure you that this is an authentic

case of TStBS

. Normally I wouldn't adopt a defensive tone like this, but we will lose both of our PRs with no extra information if we carry out a mislynch (assuming no CCs - A1).

Obviously the best move for scum at the moment would be to join the Nash wagon, and I'm confident that there's scum in {Town Looter, brassherald, ArthurConyl}.
Based on vote progression alone, I'll go for Town Looter for now. I can spot a scum agenda there.

I'm fairly convinced that votato is town.
If any of you have cases on one of the three, I'm all ears.

You seem to be trying to turn what in my mind is a scummy post into a "scum wouldn't make that mistake"/WIFOM kind of situation. I think the simplest solution is the right one here: A scummy post was made, because the poster is scum. Vexo is new to forum Mafia, so if the slot was town I don't think you would make the argument you have, I think you would just write it off to a nervous newbie being a nervous newbie.

[Town looter]

We were scum in that one together, and he was town. But his posts were very different from how they are here. First of all he was much less active and excited about the game. And most of his posts read as null to the other townies, which is ultimately how he got mislynched to win us the game. But yeah, he could have just learned from that game or something, but his posts are much more frequent here. I suspect he's more excited maybe from getting scum? I don't know.

Might as well address this even though it's very much a "of course your would say that" type situation.

I haven't played Mafia in 5+ years so I am effectively a newbie who knows the jargon and rules. 2008 was a steep learning curve for me - I tried to play that game cool, because I know my natural style is very transparent. Transparent is fine as town, but eventually I will roll scum and be boned on day 1 - so I wanted to play it cool and aloof, establish a meta that would help as scum later on. Shit backfired badly - KAAG tunnelled me for inactivity and I could never get out of the hole.

If you look at the last day phase I was about as active and engaged then as I am being now.

He's not cleared 100%. But the logic is, as scum, it seems best to make one person carry out both the night kill and the roleblock so you have less people to potentially show up on tracker results. That means one scum gets burned instead of 2. Of course we have no way of knowing for sure if mafia are experienced enough to do that as a strategy, but it is assumed most logical scum teams would operate with that in mind. If that's the case, it looks really good for Votato being jailkept (roleblocked) and a kill still went through. At the very least he didn't carry out the night kill. That clears him as 50% not scum in my mind. I go further with it based on behavior though.

Cool, that makes sense. I just wanted to check you guys weren't writing off the scenarios:

• He's a goon and his partner did the RB and NK
  
• He's a RBer and they split up

The second point could very well have been enforced by the mod too btw, I don't think there is a consistent rule, but I do remember seeing one mod say that when both scum are alive you can't have one person do both action and kill.

@MOD: What is your policy on night actions and night kills? Could the RBer have done both?

[Town looter]

@ Mikul and Lunatic:

Does Brassherald's posting in the last 24 hours have a similar vibe to the way N_M posted prior to his lynching? Different approach for sure, but to me it has that kind of urgency to stay alive combined with mild irritation that they can't just shitpost and have to actually play the game.

I am getting slight town pings here and there because of this. But overall, I still think they are a good lynch (I agree with Mikul's point about activity in other games and the vote on Arthur was bad).

Also we still have one replacement to come.

[Town looter]

Connor thoughts on tl?

I still feel the same on him.

The mahor thing I dont like is how flip floppy his reads are

. He went from saying that Anthony was scum to town reading him when the three of us had our votes him. He's soing the same thing with brass now, after stating he finds him scummy but pointing out thimfs he thinks are townie but is still willing to lynch him. Seems mayne to absolve himself of being wrong. If town looter is scum I will suspect the Anthony slot strongly. I'm honestly okay with lynching randomly in the pool of the 4 people. We have a 50% chance of being right and honest day phase it will make the odds even stronger. The wagon info will be useful. It will be useful to see who distances themselves from each other or fights to defend another. I don't scum read nas though I think brass town or Anthony are my favorite options.

Sure I acknowledge flipping and flopping can be a scum-tell - but it can also be someone trying to step back and objectively look at a situation without bias.

• Anthony's post that everyone seems to have an issue with could equally be a newbie post - I really don't think there is a lot of alignment indications in it (although I recognise my inexperience may be causing me to misread this). My initial scum read on him was purely based on POE (scum on Arthur wagon). If Brass flips green then Anthony will be back in the scum bucket.
  
• I've already explained my reasons for Brass being scum. But if I feel something in my gut when I read something, should I just stay silent on the matter? That doesn't seem particularly pro-town.

Pedit: My plan right now would be we lynch Anthony tomorrow if Brass flips green. If Brass flips red, I suggest we then lynch Nash (which will, based on his current posts, be a 1v1 between him and I).

[Town looter]

Yes they can @tl

Not so sure about this. More emphasis on why we can't mislynch today.
I want to hear what Anthony's replacement has to say, let's not quicklynch there.

@MOD any updates on the deadline?

They can carry both and will likely carry both to reduce the risk of being tracked

You guys could in 2008, but I don't know that's always the case. I am sure I read a scum PT when I was doing some meta analysis in the last game where the mod wouldn't allow multitasking.

[Town looter]

I mean it's not particularly relevant though. Votato is a messy null for me - Nash and Brass are far higher up the likely-to-be-scum-o-meter.

[Town looter]

What does TStBS mean?

[Town looter]

Nevermind, found it.

I stand by my point. Your "TStBS" argument doesn't make sense - if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck... it's probably a duck.

[Town looter]

@Mikul: How much of the last day(s) in 2008 did you properly read? I ask because I don't think my posting is significantly different than that.

I mean, if you don't buy the fact I am trying to improve and be more active compared to last game, and instead think the differences are all due to me being scum then there's not a lot I can say.

That being said, if Lunatic, and Mikul (once confirmed, you're still not completely confirmed remember), are not completely sure you have scum pegged for today's lynch - which you don't, then lynching me today is probably better for town (rather than lynching tomorrow or taking me to LyLo - I doubt I will be night killed given PRs, although possible tomorrow if we don't lynch RBer). I say this because a town-confirmed block strongly suspecting town going into end game seems like a terrible idea.

[Town looter]

I am just going off my thinking here. If I have got the mechanics or theory wrong please don't hesitate to correct me.

[Town looter]

I also really like how you are mostly parroting my views Mikul, yet reading me as scum... (Town!Anthony, doubts about Brass slot).

[Town looter]

no ones voting yet , and we have time. It's not just activity as to why i'm scum reading you. I put the exact posts above but I agree that you being more active is not ai

it def could be you trying to do better as town so you dont get lynched from the same reasons but that is not the basis of the scum reads.

I get that, but I was also suggesting my approach/style was similar, not just my activity: I was wishy-washy/flippy-floppy with reads often, and I was also the wagon starter and pushed on Neutron Star - which bears very similar circumstances to the Arthur situation. I was pushing for reactions/pressure, not because I felt particularly strongly that either Arthur or NS were 100% scum.

My initial little snide remarks about lynching Arthur were reaction tests designed to test how Arthur would react. Again I find it odd that you would find this type of stuff scummy given your usual approach to D1...

[Town looter]

Also: Where's Nash gone? I really wish you guys would be addressing him more. If they really are town (which I doubt they are), then threat of a lynch should drive up some activity - but you guys are currently giving them a free pass :-/

[Town looter]

I think it's pretty clear at least one of TL/votato is Scum. I think TL has made some posts that are hard(er) to fake as Scum, so that leaves me thinking votato is Scum. So Scum are in those three between TL/votato/nash. I really think the way votato dropped off means he's Scum since he doesn't actually have legit reasons for why I am Scum and can't defend that position.

Why have you implicitly cleared Anthony?

[Town looter]

Anthony slot*

[Town looter]

no ones voting yet , and we have time. It's not just activity as to why i'm scum reading you. I put the exact posts above but I agree that you being more active is not ai

it def could be you trying to do better as town so you dont get lynched from the same reasons but that is not the basis of the scum reads.

I get that, but I was also suggesting my approach/style was similar, not just my activity: I was wishy-washy/flippy-floppy with reads often, and I was also the wagon starter and pushed on Neutron Star - which bears very similar circumstances to the Arthur situation. I was pushing for reactions/pressure, not because I felt particularly strongly that either Arthur or NS were 100% scum.

My initial little snide remarks about lynching Arthur were reaction tests designed to test how Arthur would react. Again I find it odd that you would find this type of stuff scummy given your usual approach to D1...

If i knew that was your intent like 100 percent I woudnt

But surely the scum motivation for the snide remarks is a bit of a stretch? Supposedly Scum!TL perfectly baits the one towny who is likely to get ultra defensive and throw a tantrum, therefore making them the perfect mislynch target.

Nearly everyone thought Arthur was scummy, not because what I said, but because of the reactions I (and others) prompted out of him. It was his responses that led to his death. I contributed by putting pressure on, sure, but that's the job of town. Not doing it would be scummy too.

Now the votes on Arthur are a different matter. And you are correct in suspecting me because of my vote. Just like you should be very suspect of Anthony, Brass and to an extent votato. There is almost certainly scum in one of us four, and I know it's not me. I initially thought votato town, but that read is getting stale - they haven't done a lot to help town recently in my mind (but null rather than anything else).

pedit: gimme a sec

[Town looter]

I think it's pretty clear at least one of TL/votato is Scum. I think TL has made some posts that are hard(er) to fake as Scum, so that leaves me thinking votato is Scum. So Scum are in those three between TL/votato/nash. I really think the way votato dropped off means he's Scum since he doesn't actually have legit reasons for why I am Scum and can't defend that position.

Why have you implicitly cleared Anthony?

so you think anthony is scum as well?

I think the post that people took issue with is newbie-town, but their vote on Arthur could be scum motivated. Unlike you, I am very interested in hearing what their replacement says.

But the reason for my question wasn't because I think Anthony scum, but because LQ is omitting them, which is odd, if not slightly scummy.

[Town looter]

Is Luna still keen on the lynch though? I thought it was predicated on something to do with Anthony talking in PT, which I am not sure of given mod has been looking for a replacement for a while. But haven't carefully looked at the timing tbh.

My lynch preferences are:
Nash > Brass > Anthony > Votato.

Obviously haven't included myself even though I am not opposed to lynching me today if you get cleared and still 100% think I am scum. Anybody to the right of Brass would require some convincing, but there are absolutely scenarios where Anthony or votato or both are scum.

[Town looter]

Lol, by Brass I mean LQ obviously

[Town looter]

@TL

Why are you willing to lynch in that order when you just posted this less than a day and a half ago?

199

Because I didn't put votato ahead of Anthony? Good point and I don't have a good reason for it, i'd kinda forgotten about that POE after thinking so much about the vote POE... hoorey, now let's wind up that Mikul confirmation bias even more...

My main point stands thought:

Anybody to the right of Brass would require some convincing, but there are absolutely scenarios where Anthony or votato or both are scum.

[Town looter]

After cogitating on the Brass replacement for a while I find it odd that he disappeared after he was asked for reads, a request which he would've seen (it was less than an hour after his last post).

To me, town would've acquiesced to the request - even if you aren't enjoying the game, it's a bit of a dick move to not do it. Conversely, there is massive scum motivation to not help out prior to bailing.

Then this post from his replacement.

I'm more or less caught up.

votato pushing Anthony is Scummy, but I am not sure votato wouldn't do that as Town.

I think this games solves with one more flip.

Going to:

VOTE: votato at this time.

The bit that bothers me is the confidence that the game will be solved tomorrow. This is some kind of crowd-pleasing effort that is utter BS - it can't possibly be genuine because it's simply not true. Especially not true since in the same post they put a vote on someone who is generally being read as town or null.

I'm getting to the same place as votato, but for different reasons.

[Town looter]

Urgh. I just skimmed that thread you linked votato...

My logic about LQ doesn't stack up because they effectively said the exact same thing in D1 of that game. Just a weird confidence thing I guess... ignore my previous read...

You are very right about the completely different styles though. So different that it's hard to say it's super AI though.

After cogitating on the Brass replacement for a while I find it odd that he disappeared after he was asked for reads, a request which he would've seen (it was less than an hour after his last post).

To me, town would've acquiesced to the request - even if you aren't enjoying the game, it's a bit of a dick move to not do it. Conversely, there is massive scum motivation to not help out prior to bailing.

Then this post from his replacement.

I'm more or less caught up.

votato pushing Anthony is Scummy, but I am not sure votato wouldn't do that as Town.

I think this games solves with one more flip.

Going to:

VOTE: votato at this time.

The bit that bothers me is the confidence that the game will be solved tomorrow. This is some kind of crowd-pleasing effort that is utter BS - it can't possibly be genuine because it's simply not true. Especially not true since in the same post they put a vote on someone who is generally being read as town or null.

I'm getting to the same place as votato, but for different reasons.

[Town looter]

Urgh

[Town looter]

And had that not taken over an hour id be very happy to believe that it was a good reaction test

Really? If anything taking a shorter time would be scummier given it’s almost certainly been discussed in the mafia PT.

Reads would be good Ydrasse.

[Town looter]

Haha. Nice. Pretty sure Scum PT reads something like this right now: "Get on loot, with Mikul's read on him so strong, it'll be an easy mislynch."

I am happy to walk into the noose because I think, now, we have enough information to win once I flip.

Reads ofc:

• Ydrasse
  getting on me screams of opportunistic eliminating. This bumps the slot right up the scum-o-meter. Although you guys won't see that until my flip.
  
• Nash
  . I think this slot is scum. It's been lurky, it's made scummy posts. Just feels straight up scummy. Can you please fucking focus on Vexo/Nash slot tomorrow?
  
• Like many of you, I have had a niggling feeling that
  LQ
  is town, even though I have been scum reading them for most of the game. I realise this sounds inconsistent AF, but gun to the head, I would probably now say town.
  
• votato is tough, POE suggests town, but they haven't been helpful at all. Their scum record is impeccable, so they play a very good scum game. I think if votato is scum we lose, unless you guys can prove some how Ydrasse or Nash are town.

Conclusion: Ydrasse and Nash are most likely scum team. Although votato could be fucking us. Pretty sure LQ is town.

I am happy to answer any questions, otherwise hammer away.

[Town looter]

Two newbies as scum makes sense as well. They don't have anyone experienced to lead and help with activity - makes lurking more likely. I think Scum!votato would've made their partner be more active, so some minor town points there...

[Town looter]

If he flips scum that basically all but confirms tl

But if she flips town, I assume the opposite?

That's the only reason I am not hammering right now - Ydr flips town, you guys take me out, g fucking g.

Gonna do a quick ISO to make sure I am comfortable with the scenario.

[Town looter]

Ok, there isn't really a lot of AI in Anthony/Ydrasse ISO apart from the very weak case in 492 and the obvious scum motivation to get on me (eliminating town and potentially trying to pocket Mikul).

Two things to add to this:

• They haven't mentioned Vexo/Nash slot at all - and I still think Vexo/Nash is scum. I don't think Ydrasse is the sort to bus without first discussing with their partner, and since it looks like Nash has gone MIA, this lack of mention is consistent with a Nash/Ydrasse scum team scenario. Is it a scumtell to not mention your partner at all?
  
• I checked out Newbie 2009 where Ydrasse was town. Her approach seems to be very considered and detailed. I don't think 492 is consistent with this approach

[Town looter]

We have a few hours to Lynch.

We have two people vla and one person Mia. Just hammer and if we are wrong we will deal with the fallout next dp. We won't have time to get another lynch off with this many people missing

Right you are.

VOTE: Ydrasse

[Town looter]

Come on roleblocker flip!

[Town looter]

it’s gonna be vt but thanks.

remember what i said.

No!

[Town looter]

it’s gonna be vt but thanks.

remember what i said.

As an aside, regardless of flip, thanks for subbing in and being active. Kinda sucks you had to do a bunch of catch up only to get eliminated 5 minutes later, but thanks anyway.

[Town looter]

All Newbie games use the Natural Action Resolution system for determining Night action effects.

Mafia Roleblocker

action takes precedence over a

Town Jailkeeper

action should that apply.

I think RB can stop a JK.
Why does that imply scum!quick?
Also we should wait for votato's replacement.

Do not vote.

votato is getting replaced? Did you just confirm scum team for us?

[Town looter]

So everyone has gone inactive? Hellooooo?

Mikul. I am fairly sure Nash scum slipped, and nabbed his partner for us as well. Kinda unsatisfying was to end the game, but seems to be the only way he would know votato is getting replaced.

Thoughts?

[Town looter]

Ok fair do.

I am a bit annoyed at myself that I got the Anthony/Ydrasse thing so wrong. 2 from 2 games where I have OMGUS'd followed by Confirmation Bias leading to shitty outcomes...

[Town looter]

My reads from yesterday haven't changed a lot. Based on Ydrasse flip I am inclined to think votato is scum with Nash. With LQ town.

votato has just pumped out a whole lot of null, which I suspect is how he has been so successful as scum. It needs more analysis but my working theory is he has just floated along gently prodding things in the scum-win direction (not that they have needed to put in much effort on this front).

[Town looter]

That must be an error though right? Pretty sure you are 95% confirmed scum right now

[Town looter]

What I mean is I am assuming the 4 to eliminate is a typo, and given LQ posted in another thread around the same time Micc started posting, you are all but confirmed scum. I mean we may have to wait another real time day or so to confirm (mod confirm then LQ and Micc on at same time), but I am 99% happy to eliminate you.

[Town looter]

TL, you and I would hammer Nash if we were scum together yeah?

Yep.

[Town looter]

Checking in. Not hammering, but certainly intent to do so.

I am still processing the Nash/Micc and Micc/LQ interactions. There's a few things I need to think through, and I also want to hear from Mikul.

LQ, do you think Mikul should claim a JK target?

[Town looter]

Might wanna unvote then so Nash can't self-hammer.

[Town looter]

i mean, there's no downside. So not following through with that plan is pretty explicitly spewing win%. why is this even being debated?

My concern is the WIFOM no kill scenario. I was unsure of whether it is a good idea to talk about it or not, but too late now.

We ran into a similar situation in my last game.

[Town looter]

Lol.

I do love a good sport though, so kudos.

(also funnily enough, I did notice your lack of extravagant formatting in here and thought it odd)

[Town looter]

i mean, there's no downside. So not following through with that plan is pretty explicitly spewing win%. why is this even being debated?

I don't think it is as simple as you make it out to be. I've thought out a whole bunch of scenarios, and while I think you are probably right on balance, the advantage is small, and certainly not clear cut.

[Town looter]

(also funnily enough, I did notice your lack of extravagant formatting in here and thought it odd)

Where is Nash using extravagant formatting enough that a lack of it being used here is worth mentioning?

Um, shit, ongoing games sorry. Probably shouldn't have mentioned it.

[Town looter]

I agree with Micc in as much I think discussing tomorrow is a good idea given the situation.

However, I am finding Micc's approach to be slightly off. The interaction with Nash seemed a bit forced (compared to his interaction with LQ), and he has been... twitchy (not sure of right word here?) on a few things - the effort put into pro-townieness is pinging for me a little.

[Town looter]

Oh and VOTE: Nash

I think you are scum.

People voting Anthony when Vox whatever did less yesterday smh.

VOTE: Nash

one of these votes is bussing

If Scum!TL was bussing, it started a while before this post.

199 is the post you are looking for.

[Town looter]

@ LQ regarding missing post: I posted a link in 669

pedit: sure thing, gimme a sec.

[Town looter]

Haha. Nice. Pretty sure Scum PT reads something like this right now: "Get on loot, with Mikul's read on him so strong, it'll be an easy mislynch."

I am happy to walk into the noose because I think, now, we have enough information to win once I flip.

Reads ofc:

• Ydrasse
  getting on me screams of opportunistic eliminating. This bumps the slot right up the scum-o-meter. Although you guys won't see that until my flip.
  
• Nash
  . I think this slot is scum. It's been lurky, it's made scummy posts. Just feels straight up scummy. Can you please fucking focus on Vexo/Nash slot tomorrow?
  
• Like many of you, I have had a niggling feeling that
  LQ
  is town, even though I have been scum reading them for most of the game. I realise this sounds inconsistent AF, but gun to the head, I would probably now say town.
  
• votato is tough, POE suggests town, but they haven't been helpful at all. Their scum record is impeccable, so they play a very good scum game. I think if votato is scum we lose, unless you guys can prove some how Ydrasse or Nash are town.

Conclusion: Ydrasse and Nash are most likely scum team. Although votato could be fucking us. Pretty sure LQ is town.

I am happy to answer any questions, otherwise hammer away.

I was wondering where the setup for TL hammering Ydrasse was, and now I found it. TL can you speak to why you chose not to address the points in Ydrasse's catch up individually and instead labeled her push as opportunistic? This is something she asked for in post 508, but you never responded to as far as I can tell.

Because I was completely convinced of her guilt and riding some sweet sweet confirmation bias.

You're going to want me to go through her post and address each point now aren't you...? Lol, F

[Town looter]

Oh and Mikul jumping on the wagon later in the page surprised me, and drew my attention away from her post.

[Town looter]

Oh and Mikul jumping on the wagon later in the page surprised me, and drew my attention away from her post.

Why?

Assuming Town!TL, isn't it obvious? Mikul switching onto Ydrasse had a huge impact on my involvement in the game. I thought I was getting eliminated as town, something I had accepted and was doing everything I could to make sure my death was useful. All of the sudden the momentum shifts and now I am back in the game.

[Town looter]

Because I was completely convinced of her guilt and riding some sweet sweet confirmation bias.

You're going to want me to go through her post and address each point now aren't you...? Lol, F

no i don't think you need to address ydrasse's original catch up now. im not asking for it at least

when you say confirmation bias, do you mean following the opinion of the confirmed town players or a bias you held earlier in the game? I didn't see much suspicion of that slot from you, just acknowledgement that it was low activity overall.

The former, I became more and more convinced of her guilt as others, especially Mikul, agreed with my logic.

Oh and Mikul jumping on the wagon later in the page surprised me, and drew my attention away from her post.

Why?

Assuming Town!TL, isn't it obvious? Mikul switching onto Ydrasse had a huge impact on my involvement in the game. I thought I was getting eliminated as town, something I had accepted and was doing everything I could to make sure my death was useful. All of the sudden the momentum shifts and now I am back in the game.

In other words, self pres.

Nah, I had accepted being eliminated. In fact I internally thought it was probably pro-town to get rid of me as Mikul was SRing me at the time, and I believed myself to be a liability if I were to make it to endgame (and esp. since I had just lost a game by being eliminated as town on the final day).

The change in direction meant I had to start thinking about the game again.

[Town looter]

If you can see genuine happiness, then I would agree with you reading it as scummy. But I thought I was pretty neutral on the subject? Where am I thrilled?

[Town looter]

Feels like a mis-representation, which is annoying based on my current reads :\ (for clarity slight SR on Micc as discussed in 668

[Town looter]

Heh, I think that's more to do with thinking I had scum pinned, rather than being happy at being alive.

[Town looter]

Huh? Something is lost in translation here...

[Town looter]

Sorry, it should have been NoooOOOOoooooOOOooooo!!!! as it was lamenting Ydrasse being likely to flip town (at this point they would have little reason to lie). It was right about here my little confirmation bias bubble popped.

[Town looter]

Sorry, it should have been NoooOOOOoooooOOOooooo!!!! as it was lamenting Ydrasse being likely to flip town (at this point they would have little reason to lie). It was right about here my little confirmation bias bubble popped.

This would be a lot easier if you story didn't keep changing.

I wrote out a couple of paragraphs but just deleted, because, fuck it, I don't think I am changing my story? There are some minor miscommunications and perceived inconsistencies because we are looking at things through a different lens. But fundamentally I don't think I have been inconsistent.

Therefore I am going to assume you are simply prompting responses out of me. I don't really have an interest in dancing this little dance any more (if that is what is happening), partly because I don't think it will help town (much in the same way Arthur's reactions didn't help town), and partly because I take a long time to post (I am a slow deliberate person) and I have better things to do with my time.

So where to next, Mr Quickety?

[Town looter]

Oh lol, yeah we confirmed Nash scum pages ago. Even he stopped fighting it.

[Town looter]

Hey guys. Won’t be able to post much today. Have family in town so won’t be able to contribute today. I’ll try to read on phone when I have a chance. Lurky lurky.

[Town looter]

Briefly where I am at (phone post so apologies in advance): leaning Micc as scum. While I initially agreed with votato about LQ posting differently, they have reverted to norm (from a very brief skim of their other threads). Also I think getting on me when there was an opportunity to pile on Micc is indicative of town behaviour. And in this scenario it makes sense for Micc trying to pocket me using LQs odd misrepresentation - which for the record, could be AI, but could also be due to LQs style and trying to apply pressure, so nullish for me.

It’s not 100% thou. LQ

has

been making a pretty weird argument by focussing on the micro of my behaviour (which is will tend to always make someone like me look scummy, as I tend to summarise thoughts rather than be very detailed, which leads to micro inconsistencies). And there is good scum motivation to target me given I am probably an easier target than a town!Micc.

[Town looter]

This went quiet.

[Town looter]

Huh? Seems to be a miscommunication as my understanding is we have a circle of SRing going on:

LQ SRing TL > TL SRing Micc > Micc SRing LQ

My previous post was probably a bit all over the place, but what I was trying to say is you are probably town, and Micc probably scum. I am, currently, buying your argument about sounding scummy, but actually being town (obviously not just based on you word lol).

Micc on the other hand doesn't feel all that genuine. The interaction with Nash seemed a little forced, for one, but I want to go back and see if there is anything else.

[Town looter]

Like... How can I control how you see my pred? I can't really do anything about that. The only thing I can attack is what you said about my play.

What does pred mean?

[Town looter]

Anthony has just basically not been here. How many posts do they have? I feel like VT might replace out.

PR hunting. this is a scum mindset

I never PR hunt - even as Scum. I am literally PR blind. We've had this conversation before.

Also what do you mean you are PR blind?

[Town looter]

Ok so my only remaining concern with you, LQ, was the absentmindedness - forgetting Anthony was in the game, and some other bits and pieces, made me worry you were playing dumb to mask non-genuine behaviour.

But I hunted around in your meta and found a Town!LQ game where you replaced in and your first read was on the slot you were replacing into. That may have been some big brain meta play, but seems consistent with your faux pas in here.

I am getting more comfortable with Town!LQ.

[Town looter]

Was specifically looking for a game where you had replaced in as town.

[Town looter]

I'm fairly certain that the Scum team is Nash/Micc.

Another revisit: What has changed since you made this post

[Town looter]

WIM?

[Town looter]

GG.

vo...

...

Just kidding. I am town. I have a bit of stuff to do this morning, but will have a proper read later today when I have some time.

[Town looter]

would it help if I pulled up self meta of every final 3 i've been in the last 3 years? I don't think there is a single one that ends in any other way besides me being mislynched.

"micc has argued really well but it doesn't feel genuine" or "it feels manipulative" being classic deciding factors.

Pretty sure that is a fallacy of some kind. Saying you are Town now because you have been Town before doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

[Town looter]

I wish I could see the dead thread right now. This isn't exactly an easy choice...

[Town looter]

Briefly where I am at (phone post so apologies in advance): leaning Micc as scum. While I initially agreed with votato about LQ posting differently, they have reverted to norm (from a very brief skim of their other threads). Also I think getting on me when there was an opportunity to pile on Micc is indicative of town behaviour. And in this scenario it makes sense for Micc trying to pocket me using LQs odd misrepresentation - which for the record, could be AI, but could also be due to LQs style and trying to apply pressure, so nullish for me.

It’s not 100% thou. LQ

has

been making a pretty weird argument by focussing on the micro of my behaviour (which is will tend to always make someone like me look scummy, as I tend to summarise thoughts rather than be very detailed, which leads to micro inconsistencies). And there is good scum motivation to target me given I am probably an easier target than a town!Micc.

can you give more details about his meta read you have of LQ? what baseline of town and maifa LQ are you are comparing to? i ask because this sounds like a classic misuse of meta.

i think you need to reevaluate how you feel about the LQ posting that I took issue with. If you are still unsure about them yourself, I think its unfair for you to be already docking town equity from me.

There is a bunch of stuff, but it mostly comes back to me empathising with someone who seems to have similar play as I do. Not similar in approach or style, but similar in the sense we both seem to be regularly read as scum. I found myself thinking that any case I built on LQ would be, in a sense, identical to the one he built on me - and

there is

a case there (minor scum motivations, little inconsistencies, etc.). So I am sort of applying some super dodgy logic that if his case can be semi-legit, but wrong, its possible mine can as well.

So then if you step back and think about motivations, Scum!LQ doesn't really have any interest in throwing shade at me. The easiest path to his win condition would have been stay consistent with the reads he had earlier in the game, and pocket me. You would've fought him, but you are fighting him anyway, so the risk of him being outplayed in a 1v1 was largely moot. Conversely Town!LQ has every reason to investigate and pressure me. He doesn't know I am town (well, he does now), and there was a real scenario based on vote records that I was scum (I wish I was that good...). On the surface it looks very much like proactive scum-hunting.

On the other hand, you haven't really bothered to pressure me at all. You have largely tunnelled LQ and, at times, white knighted me. This kind of aligns with a Scum!Micc scenario.

That being said, there is lots of WIFOM here, and this isn't LQs first rodeo, so I am feeling like its about 60/40 right now.

I am, currently, buying your argument about sounding scummy, but actually being town

yikes

(obviously not just based on you word lol).

still kinda yikes tbh

would it help if I pulled up self meta of every final 3 i've been in the last 3 years? I don't think there is a single one that ends in any other way besides me being mislynched.

"micc has argued really well but it doesn't feel genuine" or "it feels manipulative" being classic deciding factors.

Why do you get mis-eliminated so often?

[Town looter]

Good post, and I don't disagree with much in it, although I do think there was enough to justify pressure on me.

The problem is, I would be remiss if I took what you said at face value. A quick meta showed you can hold your own very well in ELo as scum (while you said you didn't play well, you sure sounded convincing in 1846).

I am just about ready to take a punt, just want to ISO votato one more time.

[Town looter]

Oh, what I mean is your post is good, and in a vacuum it suggests Town!Micc. But given Scum!Micc is very good at sounding like Town!Micc, the post itself is kinda null. I am having the same issue with the four of you (current and predecessors) to be honest, with Brass probably giving me the most genuine town vibe.

I guess what I am saying is I am going to have to go off what little mechanical information I have (even if it is fraught with WIFOM). I also realise my odds of getting it right are not much different than what statistics would suggest. Hence I don't think there is a lot of point in drawing it out. I will sleep on it tonight though.

pedit: Yes, apart from when Ydrasse flipped green.

[Town looter]

Oh and votato giving me a scum vibe, but I think that is bias by his style.

[Town looter]

Tl, I would be happy to field questions. Micc seems like he would be peeved if I attacked what he said to you, and though

I probably could come up with some arguments for why that makes him Scum

, I'd rather respect his wishes to not go that route.

I would be keen for you to elaborate.

[Town looter]

I’m holding out how that the mechanical information you referenced is the thing where you can be reasonably sure my slot didn’t carry out the N1 kill, but I have a sinking suspicion that’s not it. Although I’m not exactly sure what you are referencing.

Sorry maybe mechanical was the wrong word. Just a decision based on motivations and mechanical information rather than how towny/scummy your posts look.

[Town looter]

Hey, guys, don't vote me if I'm acting like Scum, that's just how I naturally play. Yuck!

VOTE: Arthur

It's L-2.

I have looked long and hard at this post, and the "Yuck!" bit is what pings me the most. Getting on the Arthur wagon , including the reasons for doing so, aren't that bad and certainly no worse than votato's equally-likely-to-be-scum-motivated post and vote below.

Spoiler:

Just re read the dp in iso. Posting my notes thus far

The bickering was getting nowhere and I didn't feel like I had a lot to contribute. I like that you decided to just give your reads and try to move on. UNVOTE: Mikul. I voted for Mikul as well for the same reason that mutesa noted, I just don't like spam. I agree with Mikul's defense though which is why I'm unvoting. Mikul seems to want to continue with the game just fine and I don't think being fluffy at the start is a reason to vote right now.

I'm hesitant to L-2 Arthur for only one reason (and if someone wants to show me why this is meaningless, then I have no problem voting), does him trying to make sure the vote against him is counted seem anti scum? I guess a scum could see this as an easy opportunity to show that they are townie; "Look guys, I wanted to make sure the vote against me is counted!" (especially because he did it in forum vs. a pm to the mod).

Missing Town Looters joke reads pretty scummy to me. Even in his defense he says

I probably missed the joke? Even if it was a joke, its still anti-town to lurk.

He isn't capable of fully accepting that it was (obviously now as Town Looter is posting) a joke an tacks on that lurking is scum? Nobody said they would be lurking now though. If you are really against lurking then get on the people who haven't posted yet.

I also noticed Arthur parroting people as Mikul did, that is pretty odd. It looks to me like Arthur wants to show he agrees with the "group." Maybe a play to create a town-bloc including himself in it.

FoS

Arthur, no vote yet.

yeah this most likely comes from scum

yeah both anthony and brass really didnt do any scumhunting yesterday. brass was active lurking and LAMISTing pretty hard.

VOTE: anthony

[Town looter]

ok. VOTE: ydrasse

And this obviously...

[Town looter]

I get why you might feel empathy in this situation, but transitioning that into a read is a mistake. LQ can have all these playstyle based things that make him look like mafia when he's town, but he'll also have them as mafia. He can claim, and he has, that he's so good at playing as mafia that none of those things are present, but it won't be true. At the end of the day, your empathy for LQ doesn't affect his alignment, it just adds to your baseline for what LQ may be thinking at any given time.

First thing that caught my eye.

I don't think Tl is actually going, "I really feel empathetic towards LQ so I think he's Town." That seems like a gross mischaracterization of how Tl is getting his read on me.

Let's start there and see what happens.

Are you waiting for a response from me? Or is there more to come from you?

[Town looter]

I don't think this is a discussion that is going to help me decide, so probably not worth pursuing.

For posterity I would say: I mentioned empathising with you LQ - not a great term, but basically I meant I could see where you had got your case from, and could follow the path you took, even though I thought it was a fairly average case at best.

[Town looter]

@MOD:

It may have been covered, but I couldn't find it anywhere, would Mikul be informed his action failed due to being roleblocked?

[Town looter]

Ok, lets get all formal in here.

Can you guys make one last case on why you are town, and why your buddy is scum (or a summary of previous if you like), strongest arguments to the fore, and I will make a call tomorrow.

[Town looter]

.

[Town looter]

It feels weird to just... IDK, make a case on command?

I feel Micc has been more or less manipulative in what he is saying and isn't actually looking at what people are saying and tends to put an emphasis on putting his own spin on things that gives him a more favorable narrative.

/shrug

Ok slightly different question. If I wasn't town-confirmed, would you be reading me as town or scum (assume we are just prior to me being confirmed as town), and why?

[Town looter]

Sorry guys I have taken too long to settle this., But I really want the answer to my question above before I vote.

[Town looter]

Oh and, I wouldn't be asking it and waiting for an answer if I thought Micc was 100% scum, Just sayin'

[Town looter]

Lol, tempted to vote you just for that outrageous pocket.

[Town looter]

pocket attempt*

[Town looter]

It feels weird to just... IDK, make a case on command?

I feel Micc has been more or less manipulative in what he is saying and isn't actually looking at what people are saying and tends to put an emphasis on putting his own spin on things that gives him a more favorable narrative.

/shrug

Ok slightly different question. If I wasn't town-confirmed, would you be reading me as town or scum (assume we are just prior to me being confirmed as town), and why?

I think it was more that I was SRing Micc more at the time.

I mean, regardless of the vote. Where was I on the scum----null----town spectrum? And, while I suspect it isn't easy for you, why?

[Town looter]

Ok fuck it.

I have a pretty viable argument why you are scum, but it doesn't seem as likely as Scum!Micc on balance.

VOTE: Micc

[Town looter]

Haha. Nah I’m ok with you being an ass.

But thanks for putting me out of my misery.

I was so fucking close to voting you. I think I have a tell for you in future games now though

[Town looter]

Haha. Nah I’m ok with you being an ass.

But thanks for putting me out of my misery.

I was so fucking close to voting you. I think I have a tell for you in future games now though

I am quite easy to read as Scum if you have meta on me. If you DON'T have meta on me, I am quite difficult to vote in F3.

Funnily enough you auto-pocketed me through your background - fucking empathy, why can't I be a cold hearted basterd

[Town looter]

Also I blame Mikul, his final read was a deciding factor lol.

[Town looter]

After reading your meta, I am glad you are doing much better these days thou. Mental health issues suck nuts.

[Town looter]

yeah i kinda hate final three.

well played to the scum team. thanks to keyenpeydee for moderating.

i'll have more thoughts when i'm less busy

Sorry dude. I just couldn't shake the weird interaction you have with Nash plus the votato/Anthony thing plus LQs motivation to push me.

I did literally have a post that included a vote LQ typed out, only to delete and vote you... ah well. Live and learn.

[Town looter]

F

lol

[Town looter]

Likewise chaps. Good game, and thanks mod.