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If we're just using the nominate as a gated lynch, what's to keep up from just lynching the nominated player every time?
@MOD: If a player is nominated, exactly what happens? How long does the nominator have to pick lynch nominees? How long of a day phase will there be before and after the Nomination goes through?
As players, we should probably instigate a certain grace period after nomination just so we can actually get player interaction before AND after a nomination goes through.
As little as I want to render this a normal mountainous/nightless, it does seem in our best interest to kinda just do that.
Otherwise, we're up to speculation on every nomination ticket.
I want to engage with the mechanic of the game rather than treating it like it doesn't exist.
Feels against the spirit of the setup to do anything else.
At which point the real question is this:
Do we nominate a global town-read or do we nominate a global scum-read?
Also, hey, Dunnstral, it's nice to play with you again after my very long hiatus from the site.
I hope life has treated you well and it's reassuring to see a familiar face in this game.
You don't think we can come to solid consensus on who town and scum are as of D1?
I'm still quite fuzzy on what the deadlines are, don't know that they're in the opening rules crawl or I'm blind.
In post 1, Nahdia wrote:> Deadlines for each phase (nominator and execution) will be equal to the number of living players in the game.
Thank you.
In that case, we've got 7 days to figure out a nomination so we should use this time instead of just bolting through it.
I also propose we take at least 48 hours after the execution phase begins before we come to a majority lynch.
Why don't you think people can actually come to a consensus D1? We've got the time to do so.
I agree that it's probably best to use the mechanic early and instead just lynch through nomination if we every hit MYLO/LYLO.
In post 20, Varsoon wrote:
Do we nominate a global town-read or do we nominate a global scum-read?
I'd prefer global scum-read.
If we nominate a global town-read, chances are we'll end up lynching the scummiest anyway.
Nominating a global scum-read gives us the additional WIFOM aspect, which might be useful.
In post 13, Yukino wrote:At the time of my confirmation 5/7 confirmed.
Meaning 1 player confirmed and decided not to post.
I think that indicates scum being in Varsono and Hellbook
this is a likely town post and if they're telling the truth we narrowed down at least 1 mafia pretty quick.
This sort of hedging reeks
Also not comfortable with how hard back you skirted when even the thought of being held accountable for D1 reads was brought up
Can you comment a bit more on the gamestate and your thoughts on players so far?
Yukino:
"Scum favor making attacks over town reads" : I understand the logic here, but I want to be frank with you; if you really hold this to be true, you coming in declaring hard townreads would then be play that could hide your status as scum, no? I'm of the mind that pinning any sort of behavior as 'scum behavior' only lets scum manipulate and play around what people hold to be consensus.
DkKoba:
Can you actually elaborate on your reads re:Dunnstral and Raya?
Raya:
You've said you're not confident in your D1 reads and that there is "very little chance of getting a good enough read D1 to confidently say someone is a strong town read or a strong scum read". How do you feel about the people who have pronounced strong reads so far in the game? I've developed some fairly strong reads of my own, but I have yet to express them as bluntly as others. Should be evident, though. This'll help;
Good. Don't trust me. You shouldn't.
Who would your other nominations be right now?
Curious what makes my reads 'bad faith' or poor play, but mostly so I understand your perspective here. Elaborate.
I also want it to be very clear: I think you entertaining Yukino's idea of confirmations indicating scuminess is the sort of thing that's liable to just lead to two mislynches if serious stock is put into it.
DkKoba - I think we're on different pages about what you were doing. I'm talking about you putting stock into the whole 'confirmed players who haven't posted = scum' thing. You townreading Yukino for that logic also doesn't make sense to me, but I'm less critical of that.
You might not like my methods, but I don't know most of you or how you play. I'm trying to parse that, since I don't have meta knowledge to really determine what's baseline town or scum play for any of you.
I'm always around.
I don't see the logic you're laying out for Yukino being town based on that post.
Paying such hard attention to confirms/signups strikes me as someone extra excited to begin--that sort of excitement in a game that hasn't begun is usually indicative of an interesting role; the only interesting roles in this game are scum.
Coming in with an out-of-game rationale / argument around posting for someone definitely being scum between only two players isn't the sort of thing I'd expect town to propose, either.
So I don't understand why you'd read that act as a town act.
To be fair, I was excited for gamestart due to the moderator and it's my first game in over a year.
All said, I'm also considering this from a moderator point of view, since I mod much more than I play.
If a player of mine was looking at player confirmation/posting in pre-game and trying to leverage that as an advantage, I'd think they're either:
1. Shortsighted and avoiding engaging with the rhetorical aspects of the game.
2. Trying to leverage something as a discussion point and potential rationale to push for a lynch, which is scummy.
I get the points made that coming in and doing something like that could put a target on you, which would be something scum would want to avoid, but making that as a counterargument is entirely the kind of WIFOM I'd expect from scum who realize the advantages of leveraging mechanical/setup rubbish against town. It's easy to take the position of "If someone calls me out, I can just say I was making an observation and potentially even fishing for scum to push me over it or lean into my faulty logic." I find that scum players will often deal with the unplayed moments as both defense and argument against others.
I could get more into it, but it's safe to say that if you've been on-site for awhile on your main, you're probably familiar with me and how unconventional my approach to the game can be. If you're not, well. That's how it is.
A lot of my play is informed by how I've seen others play while modding and through what feels right in the moment of play. I'm a very read-by-gut player. As much as I talk about meta, I also hold it to be only useful for informing one's approach and not really defining alignment, since I expect people to be cognizant enough of their own meta to play contrary to it.
In post 109, DkKoba wrote:I told y'all my d1 reads usually suck btw. my logic is typically based on flips and association tells and I always go for stuff I find anti-town as a starting point / poe a scumpool.
It makes me really uncomfortable how much you refrain with this.
I also am pretty conflicted on the Nash slot and would like your thoughts on it, even though I know he's not in the nominations here.
I'm not asking you what they'd have to write verbatim
But instead more generally trying to get you to provide me with the sort of info/responses you're hoping to get from them.
Like, would getting Hellbrook's reads help?
Would hellbrooks commenting on any specific part of the game help?
I want to know what would help you more confidently read Hellbrooks
Because as it stands, I'm not all too happy with you having nominated someone you're not even pushing engagement with (despite the vote) but state what feels like a sort of unsure read of.
P-EDIT:
I don't know that it's all too scummy to do what they did. Can you explain what makes that scum play?
Congrats on the move, hellbooks.
I loathe moving but am grateful for it when it's done with.
I'd like to know more of your thoughts on the game when you have the chance.
In post 149, DkKoba wrote:
any reason you think the yukino opening is not town motivated? I'm not going to base my whole read on that but I felt it was a good starting point in "solve pressure" as I like to call it.
I think I outlined why on this earlier in post 96. It's the kind of play I could see myself doing as scum.
Cool way to mis-characterize my argument, Yukino.
Go back and read post 96 where I break down why the entrance isn't something I'd townread.
You're shooting far too hard from the hip here.
Don't get me talkin' about 'levels'. You'll probably hate it, Yukino.
I'm not the one putting stock into the entrance, Yukino--that's Dkkoba and others. I was critical of them townreading the entrance since it didn't ping me as especially town.
I think Nash is in a very poor position and has largely been coasting and making play under the argument of 'not paying attention' which is something I'm not keen on.
Our town either sucks ass or scum's just playing real overtly. Rough stuff.
I'd vote DKkoba, Raya, then Hellbooks--in that order, right now.
I wouldn't vote Dunnstral.
Which, y'know. Speaking of coasting:
Dunnstral:
Please offer some input here, now that we're post-nomination.
P-EDIT:
Seems like Yukino's coming to some of the same conclusions I am.
I still don't trust you quite yet and I'd vote you first and foremost 'cus you've interacted with the most amount of people and would give the most information on flip.
I haven't ruled you out as scum, either.
Shame you didn't nominate me, then, DkKoba, which means I can push you with impunity during D1 at least.
I don't think you're a strong town voice.
Hellbooks is here, where's the pressure you said you would put on 'em?
@Hellbooks: Early modes of engagement and tonality. It's been fading since, but I'm unsure yet if that's Dunnstral coasting or just having a regular activity dip as this game has been live for, what--3 days?
I don't see where I'm deflecting, discrediting, and I don't know what LHF means.
When the nomination happened, I was given a list of four players to focus on because one would be today's lynch.
That's what I'm doing right now.
Town flip for you makes me absolutely sure of the 2 remaining scum in a pool of 3 players.
Early positioning and posturing based on your input and that of several other slots, including the ones in question.
I want a scum flip from you, but an info flip wouldn't be terrible in a nightless D1.
You're sweating quite a lot with only just a little pressure put on you.
Now, address Halfbooks with the questions you nebulously alluded to that would help you produce better reads on the slot.
In post 183, Varsoon wrote:I don't see where I'm deflecting, discrediting, and I don't know what LHF means.
You also haven't answered or addressed any of this, but sure have shifted your focus to full-on pushing me the second I put you under any scrutiny.
Oh, or should one of the few lynch candidates not be considered as possible scum?
MY bad.
I'm trying to fucking solve the game here. I can't do that solely be insisting someone is scum without engaging there first.
I haven't even voted or cased you yet. Don't tremble so hard at the notion that I'd vote you before others. Vindicate yourself.
Alright, cool, you asked hellbooks a question.
What info did you get from that?
Are you satisfied with hellbook's response?
What do you think of the slot?
What about Raya? They've been around and posting. What's your take there now?
In post 107, DkKoba wrote:hellbrooks: they've been lurky in the shadows and suddenly came out to hammer the vote on me which I find scum asf. imma be real I have a suspicion that they're teamed with raya for the move they did there.
i've been
moving
...... also i
didnt
hammer... jeez....
this sucks!!!
In post 116, DkKoba wrote:include a third I reskimmed quickly and made my choice that way.
why so cavalier about it
raya
dunn
dkkoba
(t -> s)
In post 133, DkKoba wrote:like fr I think hellbooks hammering me with little explaination was fairly scummy and they seemed detached and just sheeping the wagon that had most votes and people need to see that
i didnt hammer you
In post 144, Varsoon wrote:I loathe moving but am grateful for it when it's done with.
yeah i'm tired af, thanks
In post 147, DkKoba wrote:ok so any reason you think this is town raya? because I'm not buying this casing.
it might not be a good read but it circumstantially can definitely come from town in fact one might say (I might say) that it has higher town equity
In post 154, DkKoba wrote:and I demand an explaination because at this point it feels like there's setup going on here where you force a nomination on me but also offer shade on other slots to set them up as MLs.
i have no explanation other than gut
In post 160, Varsoon wrote:I'm also pretty curious why DkKoba didn't nominate me but I wasn't going to ask since I'm already pretty self-absorbed.
this is mediumly scummy
In post 171, hellbooks wrote:dkkoba does seem to care a lot about like, getting it right
hm
Why are you acting like Post 185 is the response to the following:
Spoiler: The pressure you'd alluded you'd be putting there
In post 119, Varsoon wrote:What do you think Hellbrooks needs to provide to give you more confidence in reading their slot?
In post 120, DkKoba wrote:Revealing that would allow them to mimic it
In post 122, Varsoon wrote:I'm not asking you what they'd have to write verbatim
But instead more generally trying to get you to provide me with the sort of info/responses you're hoping to get from them.
In post 125, Varsoon wrote:Like, would getting Hellbrook's reads help?
Would hellbrooks commenting on any specific part of the game help?
I want to know what would help you more confidently read Hellbrooks
Because as it stands, I'm not all too happy with you having nominated someone you're not even pushing engagement with (despite the vote) but state what feels like a sort of unsure read of.
In post 126, DkKoba wrote:I think I'd rather wait for hellbooks to actually post themselves before I make any comments about that at the moment (:
I'm just not following your logic on hellbooks here and it doesn't seem like you're actually driving engagement with the slot.
Moreover, it actually seems like
you're the one actively going after low-hanging fruit
with a player that was universally seen as likely-not-town, put in a TvS dichotomy with me by Yukino's flawed confirmation-spec that more than one other player agreed was at least a 'townie' perspective to have; the same Hellbooks who has been moving and ergo can't respond as much as any other player--the same Hellbooks that would be easy to push given all of these things. It's really not helping me very much when your response to their posts is to rhetorically cross your arms with "I'm going to need something better on your read on me" which seems like such a self-conscious move to make when you're not even asking any questions to them. Your engagement with the slot has ENTIRELY been claiming what they're doing is scummy (pushing you, amirite?) and quoting some of their posts by saying the progression doesn't make sense. You never explain why. And then when I'm critical of why you're not doing more, you've offered up, in post 182 with "I haven't had time to figure out how to case my push on her. I do find their post flimsy." Flimsy how? Articulate yourself.
The reason this gives me even more cause for concern regarding your slot is that you're
very
self conscious. Here's my notes on what informed a scumread on you that I'd played close to my chest pre-nomination:
Spoiler: NOTES SNIP:
Page 2 reads way too self-conscious coming out of how seriously town is discussing holding people accountable.
Their response to me also sucks and, again, is way too self-conscious.
Asks Yukino for more but lets hellbrooks slide on the same page (pg3)
The second that I mention I'd vote you over the other nominees, all of a sudden I'm "Open Scumming"? The second I start to give you more pressure and engage with your slot, you run off with "Needing to go to sleep" before "You say something too mean"? What do I care if you say something mean to me? If I was scum, I'd be worried that you'd say something to
catch
me. I'm going to characterize this as an alignment slip on your part because you realize the intent of reaction to me would be
harmful
rather than
inquisitive
. It throws me for a real loop how flighty you are and how quick you can be to find people who townread you as those you see as town--that's behavior I expect from scum or from inexperienced players who aren't being critical of the actual game state. The amount of projection you've immediately put on my slot while characterizing yourself as some victim/Low-Hanging Fruit is the sort of self-preservationist defensive play that I expect from only one of the three following types:
1. Newbtown who thinks their survival is important in a game and can't handle pressure at all.
2. Scum who are caught early and sweating hard because a D1 scumlynch is pretty much doom for their team.
3. Someone with a Power Role who doesn't want to be outted so early and is responding poorly to pressure given the fact they don't want to out how important their survival is to the balance of the game.
Given this is a mountainous, I'm forced to reconcile that you're either the first or second option here.
If you're the first, then you're a liability for us to take forward in the game. You're always going to be daggers-drawn on anyone who suspects you and it'll misinform your reads as you're sorely misinformed about me being scum. I know this because I know my alignment and had to mod-confirm it to play the game.
If you're the second, you need to be buried ASAP anyway.
So, from my perspective, in the pool of nominees, you're the one who has to go.
In post 185, DkKoba wrote:hellbooks I'm going to need something better on your read on me because at this point you've given a bunch of non-contribution in terms of your "reads" other than perhaps your analysis of a few of the posts you listed but even those feel low effort.
and no, I haven't even gotten a response. Are you even reading this game?
This isn't a question, for the record.
This is "PLAY BETTER"
Which is nebulous and doesn't offer anything at all for the player to
actually act on
.
I'm also not a fan of how you block 'reads' off with quotes like that--if you've got issues with Hellbooks' reads, then engage there and ask what is informing them. Mudslinging isn't helping you understand the slot; you're just dragging it.
The same way you immediately shifted tactics to dragging my slot when literally all I said was that I'd vote you before the other nominees.
Curious, that.
I'd like to know what other people's thoughts on DkKoba are.
How are you all reading the sort of play that Koba's laying down here?
I see the 'town' argument for it, but that is giving a lot of benefit of the doubt and me literally going, "Well I guess I'll keep this town liability around over
1. A player I townread
2. A player I lean-town
3. A player I'll be pretty sure is lock-scum if Koba flips Green"
I don't read Koba's engagement as genuine towards creating any sort of worthwhile momentum.
I've consistently urged them to do so and their resistance to it has happened over and over again.
Should also be noted that Dkkoba is pushing a narrative that I am scum based on the following progression:
In post 174, Varsoon wrote:
Our town either sucks ass or scum's just playing real overtly. Rough stuff.
I'd vote DKkoba, Raya, then Hellbooks--in that order, right now.
To which they respond:
In post 175, DkKoba wrote:Oh nice shade varsoon! you mind backing that up?
Now, this is pretty self-absorbed. They could ask why I have more reads confidence on Hellbooks or even Dunnstral--you know, those other people they nominated?! I find it especially curious they're not pushing me at all over Raya, given I said much earlier I felt Scum was between DKkoba and Raya. Anyway, this quickly turns to...
In post 178, DkKoba wrote:this kind of push you're driving on me is starting to sell me on scum!varsoon.
eliminating strong town voices is not pro town no matter how you want to frame it. i dont care if it gives you information, I'm not going to let it happen.
(This is kind of funny, they characterize themselves as a 'Strong Town Voice' here, but then later call themselves LHF/Low-Hanging-Fruit.)
Nevermind this post:
In post 65, Varsoon wrote:I'll make it even clearer:
I'm of the mind there's at least one scum between DkKoba and Raya, given their play and positioning so far.
To which their immediate response was to go "after this varsoon I don't exactly trust you (: you're making reads in bad faith. either you are playing bad or are scum. I'll take the nomination but you're coming with me."
Curious how they took the nomination and I didn't come with them. It's almost like their reads are wholly inconsistent and reliant solely on who is pushing them at any given time.
Hmmmm, why would town play that way, I wonder?
For a fun time in seeing how DkKoba handles pressure poorly, ISO them and search out 'Shade' and 'Shading'.
That's how they've developed their reads.
It's all reactionary.
That's not engagement.
And it's not consistent.
I have a really hard time believing this as coming from town.
It's consistent in that DkKoba's reads consistently are compromised by a need to heavily scumread anyone that 'shades' their slot.
It's inconsistent in that their engagement with those players otherwise and the logic they're laying down isn't reflective of the read they actually have.
In post 214, DkKoba wrote:i remember someone mentioning something about excitement for this game meaning that the person probably rolled scum bc its the most interesting role. Pretty sure that was you iirc. And look at how you been acting
Yeah, town can't ever be excited to play, especially if they think they've caught scum.
Will admit I feel tunneled on you now, if you want any sort of condolences, but if you're scum, you sure don't deserve 'em.
In post 215, DkKoba wrote:i always question people who fos me for bad reasons and the fact you want to latch onto that is telling and different from the shade others have given.
VOTE: dkkoba
You're next after me
you are blowing things outta proportion like incredibly
I agree. Not sure if, again, newb-town flail or scum flail in hopes it'll make'em look town.
After all, I called them survivalistic and said that a lynch there would yield info. Best way to deny either? Self-vote. It's such a dramatic response, though. Reeks of scum theatrics to me.
In post 220, DkKoba wrote:i dont care im tired of getting fosed like this in every game because i dont interact the way they want me to
Hold on, you get FOS'd like this in every game?
I'm gonna pull you some of your own advice, then:
In post 185, DkKoba wrote:I'm going to need something better [from you] because at this point you've given a bunch of non-contribution in terms of your "reads" other than perhaps your analysis of a few of the posts you listed but even those feel low effort.
As for Dunnstral, my sense they're town is fading more and more as they continue to literally coast through.
I'd like them to take a few hard stances and I've given them every opportunity to.
Important thing to keep in mind is that scum do have daychat. Not gonna ask you to entertain who my daychat partner would be, were I'm scum, since I'm not, so it'd be a futile effort, but I do want you to consider that any possible scum-team very likely can co-ordinate distancing, bussing, etc. I'm of the mind that Koba's partner, if Koba's scum here, is very likely distancing from the whole Koba wagon, trying to get something else pushed on town instead, etc. It's why I feel like the nomination pool all avoiding Koba despite my case articulated there is giving me super bad vibes but I also don't want to double-down on what might be a tunnel that blinds me to other things.
Still don't want a lynch there, though.
Hey, DKkoba. If you're town, unvote yourself and engage with the other players. At least the ones on nomination.
Voting yourself and shutting down isn't just suicidal, it's literally denying town info if you are today's lynch.
It's hard for me to read that play as anything but scum play, and I'm really trying to olive branch here because I feel that if you're town, I may have upset or offended you for pushing you.
You have to understand that this is a
game
where, based on the information and play of other players, TOWN has to figure who is most likely to flip scum.
That means, as TOWN, you're going to be pushed every time you put down play that makes people think you're scum.
It's not a personal assault or something you should find offensive. It's literally part of the design of the game of Mafia.
Don't take it personally. If it upsets you that your efforts aren't rewarded with a town read, then think about how you can change your approach.
You're not lynched and out of the game until you're lynched and out of the game.
Please engage with the other slots here (at least your nominations) instead of making this about you.
That said, if you're scum, I don't care what you do. I'm glad I've caught you, in that case, I only wish you wouldn't try to emotionally manipulate me so much afterwards.
I understand this is a game of
manipulation
for both town and for scum, though. As much as I wish there was some kind of aftercare for how harsh things can get, there often isn't.
I'm sorry if my push on you has caused undue stress, regardless of your alignment.
Do you think the whole nomination pool might be town, Raya?
I'm of the mind that's a dangerous mindset to be in, since we could potentially be conf-biasing ourselves into thinking of scum inside-or-outside the nominations instead of trying to engage with individuals and get better reads traditionally.
I do agree that if we're playing this absolutely on surface level here, Nash is real high on my list for scum, but I want to know what your rationale is before I drop my own.
In post 232, DkKoba wrote:when i flip town the info everyone gets is that you are scum varsoon. There i fixed that for you
Entertain the very real possibility that I'm town here and you realize how anti-town that logic is, DkKoba.
If you're town, you'll engage with this game instead of doubling down here.
If you're scum, I want you to know this death-flailing isn't helping you get townread by me at all.
Regardless of your alignment, the more you do this, the more I will continue to scumread you.
I'm not going to let myself be manipulated by emotional appeals or threats.
Regardless of the conclusion I come to here,
You're either scum doing everything they can try to survive here
or
You're a huge liability for town, inconsistent in your logic, and likely to cost us the game if I let you survive.
P-EDIT: You wanna be the universal townread, you earn that shit. You're not doing it here.
So I'm quite happy with where my vote is and I'm willing to say your egotism is likely a personality tell rather than an alignment one.
70:30 on scum to town and I'll take those odds to bank on D1 reads.
In post 242, DkKoba wrote:you keep gaslighting and using hypocritical logic varsoon you're altering reality to fit your theory instead of altering your theories to fit reality. Truth is it seems like you think you will have trouble winning as scum here if you don't ML me here without a nightkill to get rid of me
Nah, dawg, if I was scum, I wouldn't be playing such power scum out the gate here.
You can decide whether or not you trust this when you die and the mod lets you know you're wrong.
