Mini 2150 - Anime SeiyuU-Pick [SHOW'S OVER!]

[TheThirteenthJT]

Today is hot here and I've been outside all day. Frustrated it took me so long to get here. I took a peak earlier and now I see a mason claim. How often to players claim so early in the first day andnjdner no pressure?

Do we have a joker style role or a potential day phase elimination avoider? Im very skeptical here.

[TheThirteenthJT]

Not going to lie I feel a bit overwhelmed here. I've been trying to keep up but I feel lost. There's been a few claims already with abilities and roles and it's just going over my head. I guess it would be bold to do that as scum but what's the benefit of doing it as town day 1? Is this something I should be looking to do? Or is it entirely based on roles?

Where I used to play only those that wanted attention would be bold to this in order to draw actions towards them or for elimnation redirects which is why I'm wary. So far I my games on this site the Meta seems to be it's best to hide your PR.

Oh boy this will be a tough one for me.

[TheThirteenthJT]

Finally read the game with fresh eyes.

Now I have not metad anyone and have only played with Battle Mage before (unstoppable duo).


I took a look at the game with fresh eyes and Mikui has stuck out the most to me. Just keeps making excuses. 33, 36, 52, 55, wants us to not scumread them because they are generally scumread for the way they play?

Post 164 seems like a faked reaction and it really pings me. Calls BM out for a "hammer" and immediately follows with a "unless I'm reading it wrong". Seems like a very obvious attempt at LAMiSt.


I'm confused with 175 and it just seems like an attempt to join the fray of players outing their abilities.

Now I do agree with their points on the push on Mastina. I just don't see prs claiming like that and their defence over it is I only do it as town. Regardless this is a very easy person to push and I feel like regardless of Mastinas alignment it's a very easy wagon to push.

Overa the Mastina situation is definitely weird for me but WIFOM.

As for Tuxedo mask, they are playing really confident. Those are the vibes I have from them. Jokes around a lot early on and very abious LAMIST attempts. Even they feel like it's an attempt to make a joke. Also obvious Buddying with Golden. And then post 223.... Playing the too scummy to be scum card hard.

Right now I see Tuxedo as far more scummy than Mastina.

Mikui my vote on you is dependant on the following question. You say people read you as scummy for your general play, why not just play along with the meta or just do your own thing instead of claiming these things in order to make excuses for how you may play? Wouldn't it be easier as town to just do your thing and if someone calls you out for let's say not Rvs then explain it and tell people to meta it. Then just ignore it front here on. I feel like most town players won't elimnated you kn this fact alone, and really it may weed out the scum who will continue to push that point. (This exact situation happened to me in the past.)




Alright I'll get to everyone else here soon who's posted.

[TheThirteenthJT]

Well yeah I understand the points. Which basically are why would Mastina claim Mason with no pressure and how it's a scummy thing to do. I had the same thoughts when I first read that. Its actually on rid the reasons I felt over my head when reading this game. At the same time that's all I see people who are pushing them as scummy say. It's all truly Wifom. So Mastina does this only as town and never as scum apparently, how is that not wifom. In the end I Seperate my feelings from logic or at least try to when playing. I also overanalyze situations for later progressions.

Now go through Tux iso. He has posted so much fluff and basically jokes. I don't know how you don't read him as scummy there. He is setting himself for a bad position.

And please don't discredit me on my Mikui reads. Last game were I was elimned the only argument on my push was his push seems scum motivated and pushed by scum and it actually annoyed me so much I stopped trying to make reads and focused my entire game on defending myself. I won't make the same mistake again and let it distract me. So if that's all you will push i may chose not to engage.

As the outing bit, this is my first game outside of newbie queue here and even in previous site it was not common to out your abilities unless you had something important on later days. It's odd but it looks like Mikui was trying to blend in by following what others were doing.

And mikuis wagon is also easy to push, I know I'm being hypocritical by pointing it out on the other wagon but so far they are all easy wagoss to push. For various reasons. That's all I have or at least the important parts and I wanted it out there so I posted it. I need to engage more because I want to prove myself this game. I started off lost and I'm trying to change that.

[TheThirteenthJT]

v/la until Monday 7/20

Sorry everyone work is killing me this week and I need a break this weekend.

[TheThirteenthJT]

I am back and will continue from where I left off.

[TheThirteenthJT]

Oh yes, I read Tux as scummy. In fact, I think he's a bit scummier than you.

But I think you are scumreading him for (at least some) of the wrong reasons. Same with your Mikul read. The points are silly and I can go through them one at a time but I already pointed at two that made no sense.

I'm on you rather than Tux only as a temporary measure to draw attention to the second scummiest player I see in the gamestate.

So basically what had happened here was that I was reading the game and Mikui started to stand out . Once I caught up I did an ISO and sorta did a chronological read on him with using quotes. On mobile and it was all the time I had .

In response to my tux and Mastina. I had to also do ISO reads because someone had asked me my thoughts on the two leading wagons. That's where I was at. If my reads didn't mirror what others were saying that's not my fault. I was seeing all their points and can only point out what I see as scummy. If it's very surfice leveled I can't help that yet.

[TheThirteenthJT]

Now go through Tux iso. He has posted so much fluff and basically jokes. I don't know how you don't read him as scummy there. He is setting himself for a bad position.

Why are you not voting for Tuxedo Mask if you believe this?

Tux wasn't my top scum read then. It was Mikui. As to why I didn't have a vote on them, I didn't want to yet at the particular moment. Knew my activity would be iffy last week and decided to just not vote until I could get a grip with everything and actually play to my skill set. Once I catch up I will cast my vote.

[TheThirteenthJT]

Catching up

Mikui my vote on you is dependant on the following question. You say people read you as scummy for your general play, why not just play along with the meta or just do your own thing instead of claiming these things in order to make excuses for how you may play? Wouldn't it be easier as town to just do your thing and if someone calls you out for let's say not Rvs then explain it and tell people to meta it. Then just ignore it front here on. I feel like most town players won't elimnated you kn this fact alone, and really it may weed out the scum who will continue to push that point. (This exact situation happened to me in the past.)

I wasn't using that statement as an excuse just a general statement. I often play in my own way and I've been playing that way for years and I will likely never change it. But for a note I play off site on a site that is dead and also in live mafia. There is nothing to meta unless you want to dig through thousands of pages of games on a site that has a horrible filter.

The only thing I made an excuse for was the fact I would be less active than I normally am because super busy (hence why I went away for 2 days ) and why I said that at the start in case stuff like that happened

This is the most sincere thing I've felt you've said All game. I feel like we're similar here and it just rubs me off wrong when someone justifies their play style when not prompted too. Like I understand if someone questions you "why aren't you voting in RVs?" To reply with saying what you said. but when there's no pressure early justifying your play came off as unecesserally defensive. And a potential out if someone used your antimeta ways as common scumtells.

[TheThirteenthJT]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: TTJT
This reading of Mikul is so uncharitable that it's probably scum motivated. The position on mastina is inconsistent: TTJT apparently understands the points on her but goes on to say her situation is "weird but wifom" and Tux is scummier because of... confidence and jokes.

I find it weird that he also casually didn't mention my claim

I did mention your claim. I didn't quote it because (mobile) but I mentioned how I found it weird that you chose to claim when others were doing the same. It was like an attempt to fit in with the meta of this particular game when you are anti meta.

[TheThirteenthJT]

So I'm at mastina's #232 when they do a text wall of their reads and I don't understand how folks like popopopopo, Shiro, TTJT, Panther and Fox, and Sujimichi rate as anything other than null, at this point, when they've barely added anything to the game. Not to mention that the rest of it just feels very.....try hard? Also the self-meta in 268 and 276 is just not appealing. I'm not liking anything coming from that direction currently.

BM's quick move to mastina's side is suspect, as well.

Mastina claims masons 2/3 of the games they play as both alignments.

This is good to know.

To note I really don't like the idea of clemency because her meta is that she only fake claims "Mason as town". It's way to easy to claim that as scum at that point.

Mikul needs to stop residing in my brain.

There's been a few claims already with abilities and roles and it's just going over my head. I guess it would be bold to do that as scum but what's the benefit of doing it as town day 1?

This has been throwing me for a loop on my read through, too. I'm not understanding the why behind the claims already. Save for Panzer, he makes sense to me.


Hey Sujimichi, can you condense your posts a bit? Also, why 20 questions and no real statement of your thoughts?


TTJT's entrance in 307 just seems to be a way to post some throwaway comments at mastina and Tux, but deliver a faulty case on Mikul. All of this without mentioning anyone else. I don't really care for it because I don't see the case on Mikul, also I think it's rich to be so late to the game and try to make a statement with your entrance.

I was prompted to give my reads on them ( Mastina and tuxedo) and that was my true and honest feelings and reads. Mikui was the one that particularly stood out to me in my read through. Which was my personal leading scum read. And I hate making excuses like this but I couldn't read the whole game because of lack of time and this also my activity level last week

And I had given statements before that so it wasn't my opening statement. but like I said in them, I was just really confused with what was going. I saw that people weren't posting and I knew my reads would be weak because of my overall confusion (and yes I am nervous as hell and intimidated because this is my first game outside newbies and I'm trying to prove myself.) but I went ahead and gave them.

[TheThirteenthJT]

TheThirteenths post seems pretty ballsys to me on page 13. It makes me want to townread them considering the fact that they were going after a slot that seemed to be getting quite a few townreadis.
Deimos page top on 14 is my exact thoughts on the Suji slot but I wasn't going to say anything about it.

I wasn't trying to be ballsy. I just wanted to get my observations out there. And was Mikui getting townreads? I don't see how based on his early play. Maybe it's because I've never played with them but I had the opposite vibes then.

[TheThirteenthJT]

So let's say not mastina for giggles.

Why the fuck not panzer ?

I'd rather eliminate scum than a 3p that seems harmless, especially if it's 3p that can become strong town. They are a valid default/compromise, though.

What makes you think he is not scum trying to eat night actions and results?

I just relooked at the claim and that's ballsy. I've seen reflect roles before. I don't believe he would lie about his seiyu so I'm going through possible characters and seeing if there's any that might have that kind of role.i also really want to iso panzer once I catch up.

Will continue with more time but Coyote Stark looks dangerous and could be a stalling role that needs to survive until day 3.

[TheThirteenthJT]

i reascend my weeb shit remark, I popped that about 1 page to early

I'm back and going to do my second push to go through this day.

This progression was really hilarious. Wish I was around for this. I know it's meaningless now.



Ps I did look at the vote count this morning and see BM voting for himself and he is one of leading wagons now. Don't know if he's baiting votes but if you really are displeased with the game and want out i personally hope things are alright. You are my only buddy this game (hopefully I'll make a few more by the end of it ) So please stick around until I catch up at least.

[TheThirteenthJT]

Arigatou gozaimasu ヽ(´ω｀○)ﾉ.+ﾟ*｡:ﾟ+

I will be reading very carefully ( ｰ̀εｰ́ )

Please be patient, I look forward to playing with you all Ｏ(≧▽≦)Ｏ

This feels like an extraordinarily annoying alisae alt

(๑Ő д Ő๑) Why would you say that? I am just trying to be friendly! I would be very impressed if this "Alisae" person registered an alt 3 years before joining the site~

Arigatou gozaimasu ヽ(´ω｀○)ﾉ.+ﾟ*｡:ﾟ+

I will be reading very carefully ( ｰ̀εｰ́ )

Please be patient, I look forward to playing with you all Ｏ(≧▽≦)Ｏ

This feels like an extraordinarily annoying alisae alt

What the hell how so ?

(¬ω¬) Is this the thing you thought was most important to comment on? You haven't said much of anything at all. Who do you think is mafia?

ヽ(=^･ω･^=)丿✎ I am writing my catch-up post, it will be done shortly~

I agree with this point on Shiro. Hes actually slipped past me for most of this game.

[TheThirteenthJT]

Mikul, since mastina has established a meta of multiple dozen games fakeclaiming mason

only

as town, on what basis have you decided that this is the game she is breaking against her scum philosophy?

This is false, it's both alignments.

This is false; it's never been done by me as scum.

I can link to every scumgame I've ever played to prove it.

And even if I didn't, the burden of proof is on the accuser, not the accused. Panzer is leveling the accusation that I've fakeclaimed mason as scum before--the burden of proof is on him to deliver it. But he won't because he can't because it doesn't exist because I haven't.

So yes, Panzer is outright lying about me.

I actually tried going through a couple games of Mastinas to see who I s telling the truth but I don't have enough time for that. Has anyone else given this a try? I just don't like this situation at all.

[TheThirteenthJT]

mastina, vote for Shiro already.

Read any given Shiro game and tell me that Shiro in this game sticks out as definitely scum.

I'm not going to put Shiro as locktown by any measure but Shiro's not south of null for me so I'm not voting there.
This is a Shiro game.
So is this.
So is this.
So is this.
So is this.
So is this.
So is this.

A grand total of one of those games is a scumgame; the others are all towngames.

Can you tell which is the scumgame easily and clearly without cheating?

Ok I see this in response to Shiro. I will take the challenge and see if I get anything from it later this I'm bookmarking this

[TheThirteenthJT]

mastina, vote for Shiro already.

Read any given Shiro game and tell me that Shiro in this game sticks out as definitely scum.

I'm not going to put Shiro as locktown by any measure but Shiro's not south of null for me so I'm not voting there.
This is a Shiro game.
So is this.
So is this.
So is this.
So is this.
So is this.
So is this.

A grand total of one of those games is a scumgame; the others are all towngames.

Can you tell which is the scumgame easily and clearly without cheating?

Yes, I can easily tell the difference - she has a tell. Have you considered enrolling in school this autumn? The BM School of Scumhunting has places available...

Don't know if you posted your tell but I'll see if I spot anything I guess.

[TheThirteenthJT]

Mastina, can I check, are you suggesting you can't read Shiro at all based on meta, and that is sufficient to not vote her here?

No, Shiro can be read off of meta and I used to know how--but I forgot the method I used to read Shiro off of said meta, which means that currently it's more or less 'yes'.

However, while I might not be able to remember what Shiro's tell is--I can say this about Shiro regardless. Even without a meta tell on Shiro, Shiro's alignment becomes more clear with time. Shiro cannot carry a scumteam even when scum. Shiro contributes virtually nothing regardless of alignment. Because of this lack of contribution regardless of alignment, Shiro is the least-valuable member of any given scumteam, and with other scum dead, Shiro is quick to be exposed. That much I remember about Shiro quite clearly. Shiro won't carry a game as town, but Shiro won't carry a game as scum. More than that, a Shiro lynch gives the town almost nothing regardless of Shiro's alignment. If Shiro's scum, nothing to find scumbuddies from; if Shiro's town, we get no info from what amounted to a policy lurker-lynch since there's no way to tell the scum hopping on an easy wagon apart from the town who believed it was a good wagon.

I'm not going to give Shiro an indefinite pass. Heck I want Shiro to post more and if Shiro continues to not, I might even frustrate-vote Shiro just to apply pressure to Shiro. But I don't think Shiro's a good D1 lynch; Shiro's a good D3 or so lynch, if suspicion remains.

Basically, Shiro isn't getting an indefinite pass from me, but

currently

has a temporary one.

Alright now I'm getting a Shiro Mastina scumteam vibe from this. I feel like Mastina was being overly quick to defend Shiro and now saying if Shiro is scum we nee stop find their partner first. I don't know how to describe it but it feels like Mastina is shielding Shiro.

[TheThirteenthJT]

this is something that comes in a majority of her games and someone always mentions she has fakeclaimed as scum and she always denies it, then it carries on as a distraction that dominates discussion while carrying on until she gets voted out and if she was town it's basically gg and if she was scum then it's just annoying. I'd honestly rather skip to the part of the song where we vote her out and just move on, misfire or not.

It's almost like I predicted the entirety of mastina's contributions on the last 2 pages, this will be constant until we lynch her.

I'm agreeing with panzer here. I wanted to avoid the mason situation entirely but it just keeps coming up. Besides the Shiro post just now when I think of Mastinas slot all I see is the mason claim and it's blinding me from the rest of their play.

[TheThirteenthJT]

（；¬＿¬) So you propose they will be easier to read after giving them a pass to do nothing for 2 days?

Kinda sorta, yes. The pass is not to do nothing for two days. The pass is to not lynch Shiro on D1 until I feel frustrated by Shiro--Shiro is fully capable of, if taking advantage of this leniency, earning my frustration and thus revoking the pass and thus getting voted. But SHOULD THE PASS HOLD, Shiro will be easier to read after two or so gamedays, yes.

Again this situation is worrying me and Mastina is sliding down my list.

This is tiring and I can't wait to be up to date. I'm forming a readlist as I go. I'm sorry I'm so slow and I'm sorry if anything I posted has been resolved.

[TheThirteenthJT]

The reason I asked the question is that I struggle to understand your lack of consistency, as you illustrate clearly above.

I mean you call it an inconsistency but there really isn't one?

You referenced half a dozen games with Shiro to make the point you can't read her

That wasn't the point I was making?

Yet TTJT has like 1 completed game, is one of your top suspects, and you haven't bothered to read it even though it's likely to be instructive to a question which you claim is at the forefront of your mind (is he newbtown or newbscum?).

In general, I don't read games that I wasn't involved in. I make exceptions in very specific situations: I have meta with a player from an ongoing game that I can't share due to it being ongoing so I need to delve into games I'm not involved in, is one example, but the other example is when I have extensive meta history with a player and I feel that linking to the iso of the player in question across multiple games, even games I had no involvement with, will demonstrate the point I am making.

Shiro is the latter. (I've also done this for jjh, to name a reasonably recent example of me doing the multi-game meta on a player in spite of not being involved in all of the games.)

It is one very specific situation where I will do the link-spam of meta.

Versus the general rule that I don't.

There's no inconsistency to be had in not doing something, except in very specific select circumstances, circumstances that I explain the situation behind. And which there is a long-standing backing behind--I can link to any given game of mine in the last three years, and every single game you'll see the same thing. Either I don't do link-spam meta of a player, or if I do, it's one of the two above situations; I feel like I can very easily establish a point with said links or I need to use said links because the game I really want to link to is ongoing.

As an example from this game alone. When I responded to TSE's point about you and him saying you're not a good scum player, did I track down your game history to find scumgames and find your performance in them? No, I didn't, I only linked to a first-hand-experience game, because I couldn't think of a way to easily set the precedence of you being a good scum player just from linking to multiple games, at least at the time. (Tho in hindsight NOW that I think about it, finding games you were scum in and seeing which faction won would've done that, but AT THE TIME I hadn't thought of that.)

Also, notably, I am a bit lazy as a player; I typically only put in the minimum amount of work required, not the maximum. I didn't link to every Shiro game ever, I only linked to about half of the ones on the first page of the list I found by searching what games Shiro's been in. Because the experiment was "find one scumgame in all of these links, just from the early part of the iso, the rest were town", I gave just enough games for it to be something that couldn't just be guessed by random selection. (It's easy to guess "oh the third one" with three links, much harder to guess "oh the second one" with like eight.)

Do you actually feel you did that?

As a matter of fact: yes.

I'd be fully willing to admit if I felt I hadn't made my point.

But I feel like I did.

I do want to respond to the point on me in this. I don't know if you would get much from my meta just yet anyways. I can give a quick summary however. I don't townread players or at least try to avoid it. People hate this but I have my reasons for it. I tend to get tunnel vision and if I declare someone town I have a harder time getting away front that. Similarly it seems I've done the same when scumreading and can be very tunnelly.

Now to a second point on this, couldn't you metaing Shiro be because you did your research on your scum partner? Have you ever done this before?

[TheThirteenthJT]

Battle Mage early insistence at nominating himself read ingenuine and scummy. largely a tonal read. also though the way he interacted was mikul was a lil slimey somehow, like he was trying to earn a townread

Mikul's entrance on the other hand was good! no further notes there.

HoldenGolden gets some townpoints for the entrance.

tuxedo masks early posts felt a little meh to me.

panzerjager's entrance is sufficently vague to possibly be scum just trying to feel out the waters of getting himself nominated. no strong feeling there overall tho.

panzer claim.... uhhh.... this could easily just be a scum role that wants to be targeted for some reason, tbh.

lol@tux's reaction to the fakevig. i try not to read too much into rxn tests tbh but this felt...fine? 206 on the other hand rubbed me the wrong way for some reason, even tho i kind of agree.

holden has obvtowned.

one scum in mastina/panzer lol

panther & fox has similar reads to me (:

Mate Panther and Fox isn't the only one with similar reads to you; aside from your ThirteenthJT read, your reads are all literally identical to my own.

(That said, is good to be vindicated about a townread on the popo slot. )

I'm back and I'll start off with this. Mastina is really making me scumread them. This constant agreement with people is coming off as LAMIST.

[TheThirteenthJT]

I must confess, Donkey Kong's entrance was the only thing which motivated me to finish reading through all of these wallposts. I am uncertain of his alignment so far, yet I sincerely hope that he is town.

The overall state of the game thread overall however is aggrevating. The mastina and Battle Mage back and forth, with a side of panzer, has felt like it has been running in circles and accomplished very little. The interactions of this trio paints a strange picture indeed.

Panzer is only just beginning to address players that aren't mastina, and yet he continues to argue with her while voting catboi for reasons beyond my comprehension. I've considered their vote for catboi as simply being a jokevote, but as it is the only vote they have held since mastina I find it offputting. Outside of this and their mastina suspicion, the only other person they have expressed interest in yeeting today is Shiro (no reason given). I would say that their suspicions feel more like a token effort to appear like they have opinions, rather than the genuine article.
Battle Mage is erratic, but his indepedent pushes of mastina and Shiro at least feel cohesive. My opinion on them has tentatively improved since their earlier posting, although I still don't find the pushes themselves particularly agreeable.
mastina's posts are incredibly frustrating to read, with most revolving around their own defense, but that's an unfortunate byproduct of the gamestate. Ironically, I belive the best way to read mastina would be to see how she reacts with the pressure on her reduced, and to see how her contributions to the game change.

VOTE: Panzerjager

I don't find value in wagoning Shiro currently. Their contributions could certainly have been stronger, but their reaction to pressure on them has felt organic, they seem rather relaxed even with attention turning their way.
catboi's posts have not worsened my opinion on Tuxedo Mask, but they haven't significantly improved them either. They require further observation on another day.

-Fox

I have a general question for everyone. I think the last paragraph in this quotes has brought up a point I've seen a few times about Shiro. When do we wagon players like Shiro? I never like the idea to not aagon someone if they are coming off as scummy. I guess right now they arent my top scumread at this point but I don't like that they are going to just slide past day 1 without much pressure if we all have this attitude.

[TheThirteenthJT]

I don't find value in wagoning Shiro currently. Their contributions could certainly have been stronger, but their reaction to pressure on them has felt organic, they seem rather relaxed even with attention turning their way.

the whole "oh they seem so relaxed" thing has never made sense to me... unles u have meta on how shiro acts in given situations.

lookking over shiro's iso, they have given 0 reads and instead just a lot of deflection. would be perfectly comfy with them being voted out.

Hey that is false although commonly yes I have 0 reads at day 1

Would you be willing to change that and give at minimum a readlist?

[TheThirteenthJT]

Apologies for my quiet over the weekend, I actually had a lot of fantastic non-screen things happening for the first time in awhile.

As far as tuexedo , I just don't get scummy vibes from him. I also really don't like the wagon. There is a claimed tp that we can focus over him , I have no idea why so many people are so intent to get on him over gut reads.

What specifically about him reads as not scummy? What people have gut reads? What are your thoughts on them?

I think it would be a creative way to negate night actions from town instead of putting them elsewhere.

I didn't think about that. I've played games on other sites where some roles needed to be "powered up" by being targeted, so a claim like that (in a game full of a ton of different powers) makes sense to me.

If we refuse to kick mastina then let's at least clock the claimed tp who is now basically useless and a net negative to town over gut reads.

The quick escalation to this, though, is bothersome to me. I do think we owe, maybe, one night to let Panzer prove himself.


These votes on Shiro aren't sitting well with me (at the point that they happened). However, now looking at Shiro's ISO, it's absolutely atrocious. If we want a prime example of fluff posting, this ISO is it. I'm not sure if that's a worthwhile D1 elim or not just yet.


For once, I'd like to get into a game where we talk about what people are doing in the game at hand and not spiral down the unending rabbit hole of meta. On top of that, I think mastina is a distraction with the mason claim and the need to control discussion/be center of attention, if town, is detrimental to game play. I'm trying to figure out how I feel about BM playing right into it, too. Not sure if this is distancing/bussing or TvT.

@Panzer Is this typical of mastina? I'm just getting a whole "look at me, look at me" vibe and while I want to consider it NAI, it feels anti-town where I'm reading around 436/439.


DK's entrance is leaving me wanting. A whole lotta nothing so far.

This is a strong post. Does anyone else get skeptical when someone just comes off a stop strong of a player. I do agree with your point on the metal rabit hole which I now feel I've been sucked into. I like using meta as a tool but it's exhausting to keep verifying things.

I also second the question towards Mikuis read on Tuxedo. In no way does Tuxedo not feel scummy.

Starbucks what are your thoughts on Shiro. I found that hit a little confusing. You don't like the votes but think he is fluffing his posts?