Newbie 2016: Snapdragons (Game Over)

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Dunkirk

Why did you call me that

Can’t wait to hear your thoughts.

My what?

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Also I don't cc cop.

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Town, look at 1075 and tell me how that has any bearing on anything at all at this point.

And BM, if you say something along the lines of "that's Looker for you" one more time I'm gonna hurl.

That's the thing though, he posts like that as town too

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And Raya hasn't been here. You can't really do anything with 0 reaction.

So why the vote?

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https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p11957546

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He did the same thing with unexplained %'s in that game and he was town

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Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's "invalid reasoning"

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As if you realised you had logged in without hiding status, so logged out and then relogged in.

This isn't the only game he's in though. And hiding status isn't scummy

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See the problem is that I didn't replace into scum, and you don't seem to have any reasons to say Raya was scum

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It's going to be hard to defend myself when nobody can articulate why I'm mafia in the first place

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Articulating why you’re town might be an avenue...

Going to be hard for me to do that when I've only just replaced in

I need to know what parts of Raya's play people had a problem with

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I think I'll just kinda do a rundown of players and update my thoughts on them. I'll try and be somewhat brief to avoid a huge wall of text. LL's absolutely insane (he was trolling, right?) play from yesterday makes the wagon against him a little tough to dissect. LL sunk that slot to a point where scum could happily and justifiably sit on that wagon/join the push. That makes things tough, but there are other things to consider in when updating reads.

JamSV:

The Blopp E-1 with the hammer invitation comes as no surprise to me based off of previous experience. The back and forth with LL is a tough hang, but I think I buy Jam's vote. Jam spent virtually all of D1 engaging with that slot, often for his own reasons. He doesn't seem to sheep anybody else, but I did breeze through his iso a little. His arguments seem genuine and largely make sense. Then we get to the end of the day and that whole bizarre sequence. I think I don't see it as a scum!Jam move. He then votes for me today and is pushing a Me/Looker scumteam. Which is cool and all, but where's that coming from? No case or reasoning is something that I typically suspect, but I've come to expect it from Jam. I'll address Jam's views on Looker when I get to him. For now I lean slightly town on Jam.

TheThirteenthJT:

Also a town lean. He feels I'm scummy, and points out what he considers are contradictions on my part. I'm not entirely sure exactly what he means or what my scum-motivation would have been. I answered his questions as best I could and he seemed to be satisfied, or at least enough to drop it. I appreciate that my turn on LL seemed sudden, but to be fair LL's behavior shift was itself pretty sudden and extreme. Reading through again I just think the points that 13JT bring up are valid and he's engaging and following-up with people on those points. Nothing seems forced.

Looker:

It appears Looker replacing in was the match that lit LL off. They have some history, and Looker indeed votes LL. Which is tough to criticize, that slot was going off the rails at that point. The percentages thing is fine, his reasoning for it after I asked is fine. Putting me at a 0% flip preference is strange, as if he knows I'm town with certainty, which only scum could know at that point. But I don't think that's what the 0% is implying. I'm basic? I suppose I've been called worse. The spat with Jam is interesting. Looker feeling that Jam (and correct me if I'm wrong here) hammering when he did implied he didn't care about Looker's response to the percentages thing. I strongly disagree that Jam has skated under the radar. The vote for Jam almost seems OMGUSy, but other reasons are provided. This back and forth kinda feels like two townies feeling each other up, but I'll still read with great interest. There's not a ton to go on with Looker, for me right now I think he's at a null.

Battle Mage:

Things get a little more murky here. Having both of his top scum-reads both flip town isn't without some comedy. Obviously Porkens was a wagon anyone could get on, but the Quick thing never really went over with me. BM accuses me of having my blinkers on, but I never found anything really compelling about scum!Quick. So is BM's push on Quick genuine or an attempt to test the waters for an alternate wagon? Well given the NK of Quick such an effort would have been for nothing. Also, BM NK'ing Quick after he made him an avatar would be pretty rude. Porkens votes BM near the end of D1, and some of his reasoning resonates with me. I have only one completed game, and in that scum came in as a replacement and did a bunch catch-up posts that were essentially fluff that appeared pro-town/high-effort. I think BM's takes are slightly better and he has some real takes, as horribly wrong as they turned out. Anyways, we get to D2. I appreciate that my posts and questions early on may have seemed a little cryptic, they weren't meant to be. I certainly don't think they were scummy. My 959 could certainly have been worded better, but I'm not ducking anything. I guess I'm walking you through 954 right now. Certainly don't think I was being dodgy. All of this is to say that BM's vote on me (a player he has consistently given at least a weak town-read to all game) seems to come out of nowhere and the reasons backing it seem thin. He says he has a theory he wants to test. I had a guess as to what that might be last night, but on second thought I might be projecting a bit there. Seems so many players have their little tests that seem to go unexplained. It may be connected to 988 and the pressure comment. Pressure to do what? What are asking of me that more pressure will deliver? I think this slot is a null for me for now, but I have some serious apprehension.

72offsuit:

Well, a lot of the takes I had on 72 from 465 were dependent on a scum flip from Porkens. town!Porkens does not equal town!72, but 72's disdain for that wagon and the role-claim discussion certainly has aged well. It could be argued that scum!72 was able to oppose the Porkens wagon while having some confidence it would go through anyway, and used the opportunity to build some town cred. Skimming through his ISO though doesn't give me that feeling though. Godammit, 72 might be town. I'm a scum-read for 72, and I can appreciate that me going from defending LL's Blopp reasoning to wanting the slot lynched seems opportunistic. But, as I've said, LL went from 0 to 60 fast, and had a lot of interactions to work with. I simply could not see that progression and actions from a town player. I can't defend any more than that. If 72 has further reasoning for me being scum I'm happy to talk about that. 950 has some questionable logic.

Raya36:

The things I didn't like about Raya in the early game can be found in 399. My opinion of that hasn't changed, though Raya made a few posts that made me feel her push on LL may have been authentic. If Raya is scum then LL's freak-out was a gift from the heavens, because her original case against him was not working for me at all. She defended it well enough, and others had similar issues, but I thought the Blopp wagon was ok. Now I'm going harp on this again because I've just reread this part of the game and it's pinging me hard. Raya is on the Blopp wagon with Lucky and Homura. JamSV comes into the game with his swinging dick and puts Blopp at E-1 with no case or questions but an invitation to hammer. I knew Jam well enough to not let this bug me too much, but does Raya have that same insight? Raya unvotes because E-1 was too much pressure (especially if the player in question may be your partner and your little early game distancing got to a dangerous point) and doesn't want a quick hammer and gives shit to LL for not unvoting. Why not have a problem with Jam for the vote? Why not have an issue with Homura for not unvoting despite being active after the E-1 vote? Why not move to vote LL right away? Why say that you find both LL and Blopp scum (perhaps so her move away from Blopp doesn't look too sudden)? LL makes a good point in 72. Pocketing in 107...I mean Jam just made that E-1 vote that led Raya to hop off the wagon. Naturally after the LL claim it became much easier to simply ride the wagon.

Yes I have some concern of BM being her partner, but I need to reread their interactions more closely etc. Plus partner speculation doesn't seem very helpful yet, but what do I know.

VOTE: Raya36

To start with, post 107 isn't pocketing, it's a pretty simple reads post

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I think my whole case and how reactionary Lucky acted in response is enough on its own

I don't believe the claim at all. Scum ALWAYS claims a PR in this situation. So why are we just blindly trusting Lucky's PR claim when we don't even know the specific role and can just get by without a counterclaim

Lucky Luciano WAS fakeclaiming, though, no? The logic was correct

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Somebody is bussing somebody.

I'm not scum

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What was the point of fake claiming doc? You were already clear, mafia knew you were lying because of their own roles (they know there's no doc in the setup because they don't have a roleblocker)

I guess it didn't harm the town, in any case

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That's pretty decent thinking

However, to a real doctor, you're still confirmed town, so their reaction may differ to what you were hoping for