Newbie 2016: Snapdragons (Game Over)

[Raya36]

VOTE: Echovision

Echo deserves a vote too

[Raya36]

UNVOTE: 72
VOTE: Blopp

Why the change of vote?
Same question for 72

[Raya36]

I want to see what comes of this so I'll sheep you

VOTE: Blopp

[Raya36]

7 is a slight ping. It's a commonly known tell that true newbies are statistically more likely to start their first post in forum games with a greeting when they roll mafia.

Hmm, ok. So why didn't you vote for me? Or more Homura, who arguably ducked out even harder...

23 is a slightly larger ping. It's LAMIST (Look at me, I'm so town). She's 'trying to move from RVS' by asking Clark what moved their game from RVS without moving the game forward herself. More specifically, she's offering content that at first glance appears to look town but upon closer inspection is not in any way AI because it doesn't offer any real thoughts. That's typically scum.

Yeah, I get what you're saying, but that appears to be way more of a way of moving the conversation than intentional fluff posting. She even threw a wink at the end referencing my post about breaking the ice.

Finally, I don't like how she disappeared after getting 2 votes on her in quick succession. She posted after them, and with the preview feature she has to have seen them. Seems panicky to just dip out like that.

Maybe she didn't take it seriously. I do want to see her respond to your points for herself, I just find your reasons pretty thin.

Why are you responding to this instead of letting Blopp respond... how are we supposed to get info put of Blopp if you respond for them? Do you town read Blopp? Or scumread Lucky?

[Raya36]

The only reason I'm not moving my vote to Clark is because I want to hear from Blopp

[Raya36]

But by giving a response you're making it easier for scum!Blopp to get out of a tough situation by just saying what you said is correct and maybe expanding on it. We get no info anymore unless Blopp decides to say something extremely different from what you said.

A general guideline that's good to follow is to never respond for someone else. It only ruins the potential to gain new info from that player. Especially if what you're responding to is a case, like what you responded to

[Raya36]

If you're town and not scum trying to limit info or defend a buddy I'd suggest sharing those thoughts after Blopp responds. They're still good thoughts but better left when we hear from the person intended to respond

[Raya36]

UNVOTE:
I don't want a quick hammer. L-2 is plenty for pressure. Scumlean on Lucky for not removing his vote. Could be hoping for that quickhammer

[Raya36]

Lucky and blopp. Maybe Clark but I'm unsure

[Raya36]

Lucky and blopp. Maybe Clark but I'm unsure

Where's your vote then?

My vote is "on" Blopp I just don't want him at L-1

Perhaps it is a coincidence, but since being wagoned, Blopp has removed their profile pic. That means they have been onsite and decided not to post. So now we have her ignoring the initial wagon that I started with 72o, despite posting after it began and ignoring my case. In addition, we have her logging on to remove her profile pic and still not posting. Feels a lot like giving up to me.

This is a bad case and very reachy.

Also can you all look back at my two questions (rqs) I asked. I really want to know the answer for the first one.

I'll do this in my next post.

UNVOTE:
I don't want a quick hammer. L-2 is plenty for pressure. Scumlean on Lucky for not removing his vote. Could be hoping for that quickhammer

Is he your only scumlean or do you have more?

Lucky and blopp. Maybe Clark but I'm unsure

"I scumlean Lucky for possibly wanting a quick hammer on my other scumlean."

For the record, I'm expecting Blopp not to post again until the slot is replaced, and if the slot claims VT I will be pushing for the slot to be eliminated.

Just because I scumlean him doesnt mean I'm right (I never take associations into account D1. I often have multiple scumread that don't work together). And its perfectly viable to be concerned about someone not removing their vote at L-1 when Blopp hasn't even talked yet.

Actually since I can't vote Blopp right now VOTE: Lucky. I think this is more likely anyway. Your stats case also was reachy and the whole basis of your scumread isn't concrete. I would accept your case if and only if it was supporting evidence of a much stronger and more viable case.

[Raya36]

Also I think Jam is town. For reasoning and tone

[Raya36]

1. Are you a straightforward player or like to do a lot of private analysis?
2. How upset would you be if you are lynched Day 1 from a scale of 1-10? 10 being highly upset.

1. I think I'm somewhere in the middle. Anything I think is important enough to say I will post about. I like to comment any major thoughts i have on posts. Sometimes I will keep a read secret to get more reactions etc out of someone but that's not common for me. And often I'll have reads I don't comment on because they're on the weaker side but that's probably true for everyone. I'm definitely more on the straightforward side though.

2. 3? I want to play obviously but I wouldn't be very upset D1 mostly because I'm not that invested yet.

[Raya36]

Also I think Jam is town. For reasoning and tone

It's not a usual tone don't worry, do you know when you just get that sudden flow of information and ideas? I'm rather all or nothing in terms of input unfortunately.

That's exactly why I tone read you as town. The flow of ideas sounds natural

[Raya36]

1. Are you a straightforward player or like to do a lot of private analysis?
2. How upset would you be if you are lynched Day 1 from a scale of 1-10? 10 being highly upset.

1. I think I'm somewhere in the middle. Anything I think is important enough to say I will post about. I like to comment any major thoughts i have on posts. Sometimes I will keep a read secret to get more reactions etc out of someone but that's not common for me. And often I'll have reads I don't comment on because they're on the weaker side but that's probably true for everyone. I'm definitely more on the straightforward side though.

2. 3? I want to play obviously but I wouldn't be very upset D1 mostly because I'm not that invested yet.

This is just curiosity, I'm not suspicious but, would I be right to assume if you're quiet with reads you're likely suspicious of somebody but want more concrete evidence? - Just to be safe for later on in the game

Honestly if I'm quiet with reads I'm probably just tired or something. If I'm suspicious of somebody and want more evidence I'll likely be questioning them without giving a read on them but I'd still be vocal about other reads.

[Raya36]

It is all well and good to try to be the cool 500IQ anime protagonist, Detective Conan level scumhunter. However, what is much cooler, much more respectable, would be to actually help town. A mysterious, secretive, low impact town member might aswell not be town but have an entirely neutral role.

I know this is referring to Raya, but I feel called out myself.

Truth is told. Now I really know what Homura thinks of me

[Raya36]

UNVOTE: 72
VOTE: Blopp

Why the change of vote?
Same question for 72

23 - dat smiley face --- bad overly friendly/buddy-buddy vibe.
LAMIST - "Lets move out of RVS" with 0 game-related content

Have your thoughts on Blopp changed at all?

[Raya36]

Not necessarily. I'll take a look at all the associations with that player and decide from there. I don't think one of you and Blopp HAVE to be scum. I just scumread both of you, associations aside.

[Raya36]

Spoiler:

Lucky and blopp. Maybe Clark but I'm unsure

Where's your vote then?

My vote is "on" Blopp I just don't want him at L-1

Perhaps it is a coincidence, but since being wagoned, Blopp has removed their profile pic. That means they have been onsite and decided not to post. So now we have her ignoring the initial wagon that I started with 72o, despite posting after it began and ignoring my case. In addition, we have her logging on to remove her profile pic and still not posting. Feels a lot like giving up to me.

This is a bad case and very reachy.

Also can you all look back at my two questions (rqs) I asked. I really want to know the answer for the first one.

I'll do this in my next post.

UNVOTE:
I don't want a quick hammer. L-2 is plenty for pressure. Scumlean on Lucky for not removing his vote. Could be hoping for that quickhammer

Is he your only scumlean or do you have more?

Lucky and blopp. Maybe Clark but I'm unsure

"I scumlean Lucky for possibly wanting a quick hammer on my other scumlean."

For the record, I'm expecting Blopp not to post again until the slot is replaced, and if the slot claims VT I will be pushing for the slot to be eliminated.

Just because I scumlean him doesnt mean I'm right (I never take associations into account D1. I often have multiple scumread that don't work together). And its perfectly viable to be concerned about someone not removing their vote at L-1 when Blopp hasn't even talked yet.

Actually since I can't vote Blopp right now VOTE: Lucky. I think this is more likely anyway. Your stats case also was reachy and the whole basis of your scumread isn't concrete. I would accept your case if and only if it was supporting evidence of a much stronger and more viable case.

If one of Blopp or I is eliminated, and flips town, do you intend to eliminate the other player tomorrow?

That's in response to this

[Raya36]

So I'm not super into this game yet so I'm gonna make a readslist to orient myself.

Town:

JamSV - Town, tonal/reasoning, 56 was bad town play imo. Scum wouldn't be so obvious if this was an attempt at a quick hammer though I think.

ClarkBar - I think Clark is overeager town on a reread. This is consistent with their RVS play. I no longer find defending Blopp to be scummy since the eagerness is consistent. His responses to my questioning about this sounds genuine too.

Homura - Townlean, I like the stance taken on Lucky and it's very similar thoughts to my own.

TheThirteenthJT - Slight townlean. 58 are you suggesting Jam and Clark are partners? What is your read on Clark? I believe your vote is still there.

Null:

LicketyQuickety - Null, need to hear more.

72offsuit - Null. I actually scumread RQS a bit (but very weakly), I don't find it works or does any good and responses tend to lead only to unrelated debate. It muddies the thread. Also why start RQS then refuse to answer and say it won't help find alignment? What is your read on Lucky?

Blopp - Scumlean/null for lack of content. I want to hear from her or a replacement.

Scum:

LuckyLuciano - Scum, didn't remove vote at L-1, reachy case on Blopp (had a greeting in their first post, LAMIST post (23) but I heavily disagree. How is 23 any different than the RQS questions and how could she be using it to try to look town or helpful?, saying that they came online to remove their profile pic but didn't post so must be given up scum). It seems like he's trying to make a case out of nothing. It also seems like he's trying to set up a lynch to for sure be Blopp (stating that if he gets replaced and they claim VT he'll push for their lynch, not seeming particularly interested in hearing from the replacement). It's always best to hear from the replacement of a sus player. I don't like the statistics analysis too. Usually when I see stuff like this I take it as busy work. It's not a strong case, there's lots of variables, it muddied up the thread and made the game less readable for me at least. A question for you Lucky, why can't newbtown get frustrated and quit when a wagon is formed on them? Why must Blopp be scum for this?

[Raya36]

Lucky and blopp. Maybe Clark but I'm unsure

Where's your vote then?

My vote is "on" Blopp I just don't want him at L-1

Perhaps it is a coincidence, but since being wagoned, Blopp has removed their profile pic. That means they have been onsite and decided not to post. So now we have her ignoring the initial wagon that I started with 72o, despite posting after it began and ignoring my case. In addition, we have her logging on to remove her profile pic and still not posting. Feels a lot like giving up to me.

This is a bad case and very reachy.

Also can you all look back at my two questions (rqs) I asked. I really want to know the answer for the first one.

I'll do this in my next post.

UNVOTE:
I don't want a quick hammer. L-2 is plenty for pressure. Scumlean on Lucky for not removing his vote. Could be hoping for that quickhammer

Is he your only scumlean or do you have more?

Lucky and blopp. Maybe Clark but I'm unsure

"I scumlean Lucky for possibly wanting a quick hammer on my other scumlean."

For the record, I'm expecting Blopp not to post again until the slot is replaced, and if the slot claims VT I will be pushing for the slot to be eliminated.

Just because I scumlean him doesnt mean I'm right (I never take associations into account D1. I often have multiple scumread that don't work together). And its perfectly viable to be concerned about someone not removing their vote at L-1 when Blopp hasn't even talked yet.

Actually since I can't vote Blopp right now VOTE: Lucky. I think this is more likely anyway. Your stats case also was reachy and the whole basis of your scumread isn't concrete. I would accept your case if and only if it was supporting evidence of a much stronger and more viable case.

Isn't most Day 1 early cases reachy? I really hate this argument
Also I see you join The Luciano wagon after I printed you to vote and someone else joined before you. I don't like this. I could argue myself that your case on him is reachy but again my case is reachy here no? Finally your case is more repreat what was already aid to give you a reason to join the wagon. While not Al we always scum indicative it's a good start.

Once I catch up my read here I will chiose where my vote goes but you are definitely setting off alarms.

Most cases D1 are reachy but Lucky's case on Blopp is beyond reachy. I mean look at the case I just posted and tell me how that's a good case. And another concern is usually reachy D1 cases are used to create more discussion (mainly from the player being cased) so we can later get better reads and make better cases. But in this case Blopp isn't here to talk and Lucky keeps pushing her. Lucky isn't playing to get more info. Lucky is playing to get a lynch.

[Raya36]

Why are you asking me for a read on lucky in the middle of your reads list?

I like to ask questions on players I'm unsure of. Sometimes I stick it in my readslist. My readslists are mostly just reference for myself. Could you answer please?

[Raya36]

Why are you asking me for a read on lucky in the middle of your reads list?

I like to ask questions on players I'm unsure of. Sometimes I stick it in my readslist. My readslists are mostly just reference for myself. Could you answer please?

Isn't it Scummy for 72 to ask that?

How so?

[Raya36]

You can take a look at my meta if you want 72. 4 townleans/reads early game is not unusual for me. multiple scumleans isn't either. And I'm sure you can find reads similar to my read on Homura too.

You're not scumread because my RQS statement is very weak and can only be used as a statement to back up a stronger case.

[Raya36]

You can take a look at my meta if you want 72. 4 townleans/reads early game is not unusual for me. multiple scumleans isn't either. And I'm sure you can find reads similar to my read on Homura too.

You're not scumread because my RQS statement is very weak and can only be used as a statement to back up a stronger case.

1. I rarely meta dive, and when I do it's not very effective.
2. I don;t doubt that you have similar reads as town to your read on homura. That's exactly how I play as scum, imitate my town game as much as I can.
Regardless, the Homura association is just a slight ping.

Fair enough then

[Raya36]

Why are you asking me for a read on lucky in the middle of your reads list?

I like to ask questions on players I'm unsure of. Sometimes I stick it in my readslist. My readslists are mostly just reference for myself. Could you answer please?

Isn't it Scummy for 72 to ask that?

How so?

Why aks that? Never heard or seen that it is or should be Scummy to ask a question in the middle of a readslist. Like, it's totally something I can see Scum asking to try and look like they are Scum hunting, but not something I can really see Town asking that thinking, "Hmm, seems pretty out of the ordinary you ask a question mid RL. I bet if I ask them why they did that they couldn't come up with an answer if they are Scum." Yeah, not really seeing that coming from Town. Unless 72 has a gob of experience, but even then there are way better things to talk about than something that doesn't really seem Scummy inherently. 72's follow up doesn't really look good either.

72 has seemed evasive. But I'm not sure what to make of that

[Raya36]

Lucky and blopp. Maybe Clark but I'm unsure

Where's your vote then?

My vote is "on" Blopp I just don't want him at L-1

Perhaps it is a coincidence, but since being wagoned, Blopp has removed their profile pic. That means they have been onsite and decided not to post. So now we have her ignoring the initial wagon that I started with 72o, despite posting after it began and ignoring my case. In addition, we have her logging on to remove her profile pic and still not posting. Feels a lot like giving up to me.

This is a bad case and very reachy.

Also can you all look back at my two questions (rqs) I asked. I really want to know the answer for the first one.

I'll do this in my next post.

UNVOTE:
I don't want a quick hammer. L-2 is plenty for pressure. Scumlean on Lucky for not removing his vote. Could be hoping for that quickhammer

Is he your only scumlean or do you have more?

Lucky and blopp. Maybe Clark but I'm unsure

"I scumlean Lucky for possibly wanting a quick hammer on my other scumlean."

For the record, I'm expecting Blopp not to post again until the slot is replaced, and if the slot claims VT I will be pushing for the slot to be eliminated.

Just because I scumlean him doesnt mean I'm right (I never take associations into account D1. I often have multiple scumread that don't work together). And its perfectly viable to be concerned about someone not removing their vote at L-1 when Blopp hasn't even talked yet.

Actually since I can't vote Blopp right now VOTE: Lucky. I think this is more likely anyway. Your stats case also was reachy and the whole basis of your scumread isn't concrete. I would accept your case if and only if it was supporting evidence of a much stronger and more viable case.

Isn't most Day 1 early cases reachy? I really hate this argument
Also I see you join The Luciano wagon after I printed you to vote and someone else joined before you. I don't like this. I could argue myself that your case on him is reachy but again my case is reachy here no? Finally your case is more repreat what was already aid to give you a reason to join the wagon. While not Al we always scum indicative it's a good start.

Once I catch up my read here I will chiose where my vote goes but you are definitely setting off alarms.

Most cases D1 are reachy but Lucky's case on Blopp is beyond reachy. I mean look at the case I just posted and tell me how that's a good case. And another concern is usually reachy D1 cases are used to create more discussion (mainly from the player being cased) so we can later get better reads and make better cases. But in this case Blopp isn't here to talk and Lucky keeps pushing her. Lucky isn't playing to get more info. Lucky is playing to get a lynch.

I will respond to your readlist post next. I NEED to respond to this first. Is case on Blopp was from what 2 pages worth of posts? Wouldn't that have to be reachy? Do I agree it's a good case? Weird yes but not really screaming confirmed scum for me and thus my vote is not on Blopp. For an elimation to be made 5 players have to agree it's a good enough case to do so. If an elimation were to occur based on that it would be so telling for the rest of the game. Making a case on a player might not get info on the player ryou are pushing but can give Intel on other players in the wagon. Why did they join the wagon? Did they explain themselves well. If it was bad reasoning, what purpose did they have joining that wagon? Miselimnatiin or bad play? So much can be told by these situations.

Overall it has provided discussion to a slow early game and thus has actually been a very beneficial wagon.

I agree with this but it would be much more beneficial to push a player that's active. You would get much more info from that. And also I don't like how Lucky seems to have 0 interest in Blopp being replaced. He just wants Blopp lynched and doesn't appear to care about whether or not Blopp actually is scum or care about getting more info that could help make that decision.

[Raya36]

TheThirteenthJT - Slight townlean. 58 are you suggesting Jam and Clark are partners? What is your read on Clark? I believe your vote is still there.

Yes partially. I was also suggesting that scum are the only ones that truly know everyone's alignment. So Clark is an interesting read for me and would like to expand on this later. He actually failed a test earlier and it looks bad for him but his play has indicated town for me. I will be keeping a good look at him throughout the game but it's currently Not enough for me to keep my vote on him currently.

So after my reread my vote will most comfortably be here


UNVOTE: clark
VOTE: raya36

I'm interested in what this failed test is

[Raya36]

Why are you asking me for a read on lucky in the middle of your reads list?

I like to ask questions on players I'm unsure of. Sometimes I stick it in my readslist. My readslists are mostly just reference for myself. Could you answer please?

Isn't it Scummy for 72 to ask that?

How so?

Why aks that? Never heard or seen that it is or should be Scummy to ask a question in the middle of a readslist. Like, it's totally something I can see Scum asking to try and look like they are Scum hunting, but not something I can really see Town asking that thinking, "Hmm, seems pretty out of the ordinary you ask a question mid RL. I bet if I ask them why they did that they couldn't come up with an answer if they are Scum." Yeah, not really seeing that coming from Town. Unless 72 has a gob of experience, but even then there are way better things to talk about than something that doesn't really seem Scummy inherently. 72's follow up doesn't really look good either.

72 has seemed evasive. But I'm not sure what to make of that

Unfortunately there's very little you can do if someone is being evasive. If being evasive continues for an extended period that's when you can start saying with some confidence that its scummy.

Yeah, that's why I don't find it necessarily scummy yet

[Raya36]

Lucky and blopp. Maybe Clark but I'm unsure

Where's your vote then?

My vote is "on" Blopp I just don't want him at L-1

Perhaps it is a coincidence, but since being wagoned, Blopp has removed their profile pic. That means they have been onsite and decided not to post. So now we have her ignoring the initial wagon that I started with 72o, despite posting after it began and ignoring my case. In addition, we have her logging on to remove her profile pic and still not posting. Feels a lot like giving up to me.

This is a bad case and very reachy.

Also can you all look back at my two questions (rqs) I asked. I really want to know the answer for the first one.

I'll do this in my next post.

UNVOTE:
I don't want a quick hammer. L-2 is plenty for pressure. Scumlean on Lucky for not removing his vote. Could be hoping for that quickhammer

Is he your only scumlean or do you have more?

Lucky and blopp. Maybe Clark but I'm unsure

"I scumlean Lucky for possibly wanting a quick hammer on my other scumlean."

For the record, I'm expecting Blopp not to post again until the slot is replaced, and if the slot claims VT I will be pushing for the slot to be eliminated.

Just because I scumlean him doesnt mean I'm right (I never take associations into account D1. I often have multiple scumread that don't work together). And its perfectly viable to be concerned about someone not removing their vote at L-1 when Blopp hasn't even talked yet.

Actually since I can't vote Blopp right now VOTE: Lucky. I think this is more likely anyway. Your stats case also was reachy and the whole basis of your scumread isn't concrete. I would accept your case if and only if it was supporting evidence of a much stronger and more viable case.

Isn't most Day 1 early cases reachy? I really hate this argument
Also I see you join The Luciano wagon after I printed you to vote and someone else joined before you. I don't like this. I could argue myself that your case on him is reachy but again my case is reachy here no? Finally your case is more repreat what was already aid to give you a reason to join the wagon. While not Al we always scum indicative it's a good start.

Once I catch up my read here I will chiose where my vote goes but you are definitely setting off alarms.

Most cases D1 are reachy but Lucky's case on Blopp is beyond reachy. I mean look at the case I just posted and tell me how that's a good case. And another concern is usually reachy D1 cases are used to create more discussion (mainly from the player being cased) so we can later get better reads and make better cases. But in this case Blopp isn't here to talk and Lucky keeps pushing her. Lucky isn't playing to get more info. Lucky is playing to get a lynch.

I will respond to your readlist post next. I NEED to respond to this first. Is case on Blopp was from what 2 pages worth of posts? Wouldn't that have to be reachy? Do I agree it's a good case? Weird yes but not really screaming confirmed scum for me and thus my vote is not on Blopp. For an elimation to be made 5 players have to agree it's a good enough case to do so. If an elimation were to occur based on that it would be so telling for the rest of the game. Making a case on a player might not get info on the player ryou are pushing but can give Intel on other players in the wagon. Why did they join the wagon? Did they explain themselves well. If it was bad reasoning, what purpose did they have joining that wagon? Miselimnatiin or bad play? So much can be told by these situations.

Overall it has provided discussion to a slow early game and thus has actually been a very beneficial wagon.

I agree with this but it would be much more beneficial to push a player that's active. You would get much more info from that. And also I don't like how Lucky seems to have 0 interest in Blopp being replaced. He just wants Blopp lynched and doesn't appear to care about whether or not Blopp actually is scum or care about getting more info that could help make that decision.

Raya I'm pretty sure Lucky follows a trail of thought like this: Day 1 is useless, its okay to lose 2 town, as N1 can give us a lot of information to make the loss worth it.
I don't think its pro-town in anyway, but it does seem like he likes that idea.

I'm still convinced he's pushing for a mislynch

[Raya36]

Why are you asking me for a read on lucky in the middle of your reads list?

I like to ask questions on players I'm unsure of. Sometimes I stick it in my readslist. My readslists are mostly just reference for myself. Could you answer please?

Isn't it Scummy for 72 to ask that?

How so?

Why aks that? Never heard or seen that it is or should be Scummy to ask a question in the middle of a readslist. Like, it's totally something I can see Scum asking to try and look like they are Scum hunting, but not something I can really see Town asking that thinking, "Hmm, seems pretty out of the ordinary you ask a question mid RL. I bet if I ask them why they did that they couldn't come up with an answer if they are Scum." Yeah, not really seeing that coming from Town. Unless 72 has a gob of experience, but even then there are way better things to talk about than something that doesn't really seem Scummy inherently. 72's follow up doesn't really look good either.

72 has seemed evasive. But I'm not sure what to make of that

Can you post specifically in which posts I was evasive?

32 183 192

[Raya36]

Lucky and blopp. Maybe Clark but I'm unsure

Where's your vote then?

My vote is "on" Blopp I just don't want him at L-1

Perhaps it is a coincidence, but since being wagoned, Blopp has removed their profile pic. That means they have been onsite and decided not to post. So now we have her ignoring the initial wagon that I started with 72o, despite posting after it began and ignoring my case. In addition, we have her logging on to remove her profile pic and still not posting. Feels a lot like giving up to me.

This is a bad case and very reachy.

Also can you all look back at my two questions (rqs) I asked. I really want to know the answer for the first one.

I'll do this in my next post.

UNVOTE:
I don't want a quick hammer. L-2 is plenty for pressure. Scumlean on Lucky for not removing his vote. Could be hoping for that quickhammer

Is he your only scumlean or do you have more?

Lucky and blopp. Maybe Clark but I'm unsure

"I scumlean Lucky for possibly wanting a quick hammer on my other scumlean."

For the record, I'm expecting Blopp not to post again until the slot is replaced, and if the slot claims VT I will be pushing for the slot to be eliminated.

Just because I scumlean him doesnt mean I'm right (I never take associations into account D1. I often have multiple scumread that don't work together). And its perfectly viable to be concerned about someone not removing their vote at L-1 when Blopp hasn't even talked yet.

Actually since I can't vote Blopp right now VOTE: Lucky. I think this is more likely anyway. Your stats case also was reachy and the whole basis of your scumread isn't concrete. I would accept your case if and only if it was supporting evidence of a much stronger and more viable case.

Isn't most Day 1 early cases reachy? I really hate this argument
Also I see you join The Luciano wagon after I printed you to vote and someone else joined before you. I don't like this. I could argue myself that your case on him is reachy but again my case is reachy here no? Finally your case is more repreat what was already aid to give you a reason to join the wagon. While not Al we always scum indicative it's a good start.

Once I catch up my read here I will chiose where my vote goes but you are definitely setting off alarms.

Most cases D1 are reachy but Lucky's case on Blopp is beyond reachy. I mean look at the case I just posted and tell me how that's a good case. And another concern is usually reachy D1 cases are used to create more discussion (mainly from the player being cased) so we can later get better reads and make better cases. But in this case Blopp isn't here to talk and Lucky keeps pushing her. Lucky isn't playing to get more info. Lucky is playing to get a lynch.

I will respond to your readlist post next. I NEED to respond to this first. Is case on Blopp was from what 2 pages worth of posts? Wouldn't that have to be reachy? Do I agree it's a good case? Weird yes but not really screaming confirmed scum for me and thus my vote is not on Blopp. For an elimation to be made 5 players have to agree it's a good enough case to do so. If an elimation were to occur based on that it would be so telling for the rest of the game. Making a case on a player might not get info on the player ryou are pushing but can give Intel on other players in the wagon. Why did they join the wagon? Did they explain themselves well. If it was bad reasoning, what purpose did they have joining that wagon? Miselimnatiin or bad play? So much can be told by these situations.

Overall it has provided discussion to a slow early game and thus has actually been a very beneficial wagon.

I agree with this but it would be much more beneficial to push a player that's active. You would get much more info from that. And also I don't like how Lucky seems to have 0 interest in Blopp being replaced. He just wants Blopp lynched and doesn't appear to care about whether or not Blopp actually is scum or care about getting more info that could help make that decision.

What gives you the impression LL "just wants Blopa lynched"?

I already explained this. Go back through my cases recent in my iso

[Raya36]

Most cases D1 are reachy but Lucky's case on Blopp is beyond reachy. I mean look at the case I just posted and tell me how that's a good case. And another concern is usually reachy D1 cases are used to create more discussion (mainly from the player being cased) so we can later get better reads and make better cases. But in this case Blopp isn't here to talk and Lucky keeps pushing her. Lucky isn't playing to get more info. Lucky is playing to get a lynch.

I elaborated in terms of a case to generate discussion, but the points of the case were still >Rand reasons to vote Blopp today. Her site flake, with special consideration played to how she site flaked - in that she essentially deactivated her account -, is further increasing the chance that she flips mafia fair >Random. To assume that I haven't gotten more info on the slots throughout the day is to assume that I haven't been observing how players position themselves around the topic.

The case is reachy. Even Homura who has a lot of experience said they have never seen a newbscum completely quit due to being scumread/wagoned. And why aren't you considering other possibilities. Couldn't she have siteflaked as town due to the same frustrations she would have as scum due to a wagon? Some people regardless of alignment don't enjoy being wagoned and maybe she realized this game wasn't for her. Maybe she just went v/la or life got busy and she stopped playing or maybe she simply lost interest. There are so many possibilities and I don't get why you're set on her being scum for something I don't consider particularly AI.

If you're observing the positions of players around the topic can you explain some thoughts or reads you've gotten from it?

I agree with this but it would be much more beneficial to push a player that's active. You would get much more info from that. And also I don't like how Lucky seems to have 0 interest in Blopp being replaced. He just wants Blopp lynched and doesn't appear to care about whether or not Blopp actually is scum or care about getting more info that could help make that decision.

Who said I'm not interested in a replacement? I said that a replacement still has to defend Blopp's actions and isn't pardoned simply for replacing into a game, and that if they claim VT I'm going to continue voting them. You keep saying I wanted a quick hammer because I didn't unvote. Why would I unvote someone I think is scum? Why does it feel like you are 100% convinced that Blopp is town despite her being one of your scum reads? It feels like you have been arguing that you are allowed to scum read her but I'm not allowed to scum read her more strongly. If someone hammers her and she flips town

that gives info too

. Stop playing like a novice, you're an SE.

So basically what you're saying in that second line is unless Blopp slot is a power role you won't consider anything the replacement has to say and won't reconsider your read. That's not being interested in a replacement. You shouldn't pardon someone just for replacing into a game but a replacement can bring a lot of insight into a slot. A new POV, actual content, more active play, you can check for agenda, etc.

I'm not 100% convinced Blopp is town. I just don't trust your case on her and I don't believe it to be a good case with good intentions. The more I believe you're pushing for a mislynch the more I believe Blopp is town though. And yes Blopp flipping town does give info but why should I push for a flip on Blopp when I'm sure you're scum pushing for a mislynch on Blopp.

You're allowed to scumread her. I don't see how you think I'm arguing that you can't scumread her. I think you're scum pushing for a mislynch. That's what I'm arguing.

If you're so happy with flipping town and you're actually town why not let us flip you. We'll get more info from that than Blopp's flip.

[Raya36]

LicketyQuickety - Null, need to

hear more

.

Hear away:

Hm not bad. This earns a townlean

[Raya36]

LicketyQuickety - Null, need to

hear more

.

Hear away:

Hm not bad. This earns a townlean

Spoiler: I will fail you

Pretty good. Closer to my genres. Kinda reminds me of Disturbed and Breaking Benjamin. I hope the title isn't telling though... slightly higher townlean

[Raya36]

Allow me take a turn at attempting to pocket

[Raya36]

Raya, your positioning WRT Blopp is odd. I was okay with the sheep vote in 39 because you seemed genuinely interested in the case. Somewhere down the line the same case you found worth pushing you have decided is worth scumreading for having been pushed. 45 is odd in retrospect. You say that you won't move your vote from Blopp to Clark because you want to hear from Blopp, but you also concede that we're not going to get info out of Blopp's responses anymore because Clark addressed my case for her (47). If Blopp has had an out provided to her already, what's the point of keeping your vote on her?

Nice attempt at discrediting me. Not gonna work. I was interested in the case but when Blopp went MIA and no replacement was coming in the near future AND he got to L-1 I saw that the scumminess actually came from within the wagon. I did join the wagon to see what came of it just like I said and what came of it was I found out you're scum. As for Blopp having an out, taking my vote off was going to give much less info and I talked to Clark without using my vote and got responses that lead me to believe he is town. I did not abandon what I said about Clark and also did not abandon the wagon on Blopp at the same time. The point of keeping my vote is because the vote wasn't just to get a response to what you said. It was also for the reaction to a wagon.

67 is also really weird. Why is there a scumlean on me for not removing my vote on someone that I scumread and not a scumlean on the player who replaced in, put Blopp at E-1, and invited a quickhammer? It feels like Raya's setting up to push me later for this and doesn't feel at all like a genuine read. In 106 you call a 2-line post that I prefaced with "Perhaps it is a coincidence" in 63, "Bad and reachy." Why did you consider my speculation a case at the time? What sort of content did you expect 63 posts into the game that would push the game forward while not being, to some degree, "bad and reachy"? Further, in 67, you scumleaned me for not unvoting but said nothing about 63. Further, you keep calling my push reachy. What about being reachy is scummy? Do you believe that my goal D1 as town is to find an elimination target that has an >Random chance of being scum? Even if my stance on Blopp is reachy, do you not believe that it represents scum equity in the Blopp slot that is >Random? You yourself have continually scumread Blopp

the entire game

while simultaneously pushing me for scumreading her. Why do

you

scumread her? Your initial vote on the slot was a sheep vote, which you yourself admitted was only cast to "see where this goes." Blopp never responded, therefore it never went anywhere, yet you progressed into constantly calling her slot scummy while illustrating none of that progression publicly. And despite you insisting that I'm pushing a mislynch, you hold that you think her slot is scummy.

The difference is Jam was open and clearly stated it was L-1 and their intents etc. You came back and were quiet about it. I really don't see scum coming in, putting someone at L-1 and then inviting the mislynch. Maybe case wasn't the best word choice but I do consider anything with multiple reasons to scumread someone a case. You're nitpicking on wording. There's early game bad and reachy and then there's just bad and reachy and yours was bad. I don't see a town thought process, I see scum trying to make something up out of nothing. I don't see the problem with not saying anything about 63 then.. Reachy is scummy because scum are trying to make scumreads when they are informed and know they're scumreading town. That means they need to make up reasons for why that person is scum which can lead to reachiness. Yes I believe that's your goal as town. I no longer scumread Blopp. Thought I made that clear, sorry. Reactions from Blopp didn't go anywhere no, but the wagon is telling as well.

Why did you ask 72o if his thoughts of Blopp had changed at all in 148 when Blopp has been MIA since his initial vote? Why would his thoughts have changed, and why did you have a special interest in hearing his thoughts on the Blopp slot rather than others, like the slot you have been pushing: me? Your stance on Blopp honestly feels like you tried to distance early and are not awkwardly trying to defend her (anyone else hear the distant revving of a chainsaw) while maintaining your early, unexplained scumread on her to appear consistent. In 181 you have decided that the

only

reason Blopp is scummy is lack of content. This seems to be a deterioration in your read on her since your earlier scumlean on her 67. What reason did you have to scumlean Blopp in 67, and why did it disappear by 181. She hadn't been gone for long enough for lack of content to be a reason to scumlean her, and it was early enough in the game that other slots had just as little or less content. So please, educate me on your thought process here.

I forgot Blopp hadn't posted since then. His post was early game and I never referred back to see when Blopp's last post was. How is that even scummy... But I'm not maintaining my scumread on her. I seriously think she's a mislynch and I said that you're pushing a mislynch several times which clearly means I'm townreading her. Keep in mind when reading my 181 that it was written during a reread. And in my reread I decided that you're likely scum and Blopp is town.

Let's move on to 182. You say that my case is scummy because I'm pushing a spot that isn't around to respond, but my case is premised on

why

that slot isn't around to respond. Do you believe it is possible that I believe in my reads? If so, why is my push scummy? Do you stop pushing a scumread because they leave the game or choose not to respond? Later on your argument against me more clearly becomes that you believe I'm pushing a miskick (218). How do you differentiate town pushing town from scum pushing town? What about my push on Blopp indicates that it is a push I would make as scum but wouldn't make as town? If you are still holding Blopp as scummy, how can my push so obviously be a miskick? I can only clearly be pushing a miskick if I'm pushing an obvtown slot, no? Please explain to me how you know I'm pushing a miskick on a slot you scumread.

Your push is scummy because you seem to want it lynched regardless of whether there is or is not a replacement. And your whole case is on the premise that they're not here but you're not considering the MANY other possible reasons for that and you're ignoring me when I ask you about them. I've already explained many times why your push seems like scum pushing town and not town pushing town. (bad case, reachy, not caring about the replacement, stated you'd want to lynch if the replacement claims VT, not considering other possibilities for being MIA, pushing someone who currently doesn't have a voice, etc)

On to 228. The first thing you do is appeal to authority with Homura. That's laughable because I have more experience than Homura, so if you are using experience as a reason to accept or deny my push, you should be taking my side. Moreover, it's not that I haven't considered other possibilities for Blopp flaking. It's that among all possible explanations, I believe that the explanations leading to scum!Blopp hold more equity than those leading to town!Blopp. I think the deletion of her avatar answers back

many, if not all

of the NAI explanations for her flaking, and when left with only scumAI and townAI explanations for a newbie dipping after getting immediate pressure from multiple players in response to a post they made, my experience leads me to believe that there are far more prevalent scumAI explanations than townAI. Further, you say in the same post that you don't find Blopp's behavior particularly AI. Again, explain to me your earlier scumread on Blopp if her behavior suddenly isn't AI.

You don't have experience in Newbie games on this site though. Your experience can not be compared in this context. Explain to me why Blopp couldn't have just came in, deleted her avatar with intent to get a new one, then just never did and siteflaked. Tell me why Blopp couldn't have just decided they want nothing to do with this site regardless of alignment and deleted their avatar and siteflaked. This is why I don't find it AI. You're telling me this player should be lynched regardless of what the replacement says (if they claim VT) when all you have is a flimsy case with several counter-arguments.

A particular line I feel warrants a response,

So basically what you're saying in that second line is unless Blopp slot is a power role you won't consider anything the replacement has to say and won't reconsider your read.

Yeah. That's pretty much what I'm saying. The goal D1 is always to find a slot that has a >Rand chance of being scum and voting there. The goal D1 is not to solve the game. If a slot with high scum equity claims VT, you eliminate them. You don't go searching through slots with lesser scum equity and get more claims, either outing a TPR or further limiting the pool of TPR for scum to choose from for their NK. It's called best practical play.

I do agree that once a player claims VT it's probably for the best to lynch them unless they suddenly become very obvtown, however your wording is making me think that even before the replacement claims anything you won't care about what they have to say. They'll only claim once they get to L-1 with intent, so what if that never happens?

I'm not 100% convinced Blopp is town. I just don't trust your case on her and I don't believe it to be a good case with good intentions. The more I believe you're pushing for a mislynch the more I believe Blopp is town though. And yes Blopp flipping town does give info but why should I push for a flip on Blopp when I'm sure you're scum pushing for a mislynch on Blopp.

Either you think I'm scum pushing for a miskick or you don't. If you are so convinced that I'm scum pushing for a miskick, why would you say that you are not 100% convinced Blopp is town. Even if it is a true statement, what compelled you to throw it out there. It feels a lot like building a safety net for Blopp being kicked, either today, or tomorrow if I were to be kicked today. At some point that slot

will

flip, and when it does you need to have already saved face, and this is part of you trying to do that.

Because I don't 100% know you're scum. I just really really think you are. If you're not then I wouldn't be 100% convinced Blopp is town. My basis for Blopp being town is you being scum and I don't do D1 associations during D1.

Also, anyone who doesn't read this as scum is a joke of a player,

If you're so happy with flipping town and you're actually town why not let us flip you. We'll get more info from that than Blopp's flip.

Just saying that it's inconsistent to be willing to flip town for info but be unwilling to flip yourself when that would give us even more info.

[Raya36]

I went back to analyze the Blopp flake and it's so bizarre. I can see newbie players leaving for a bit and returning to see 4 votes on then as a bit overwhelming but I felt the pressure up to the point they removed their avatar was not that high. I've seen (and done so myself) people drilled early game as newbies which would cause enough frustration for a rage quit. This early wagon was rather tame. But at the same time why return at all to remove your avatar? Clearly no intention of returning and thus rage quit possibility over just not returning/forgetting about the site.

So here's the final scenario I have in my head. Blopp comes back because they remember they are in a mafia game, see 4 votes on them, says screw this, removes avatar and leaves forever.

Ok but this same reaction can come from town too.. It's not scum indicative.. It's NAI

[Raya36]

The avatar removal just feels like an account deactivation. Seems like she decided forum mafia wasnt her cup of tea.
Question is, what it due to !scumher having to explain her way out of a hole, or just disliking the game overall.

The avatar removal just feels like an account deactivation. Seems like she decided forum mafia wasnt her cup of tea.
Question is, what it due to !scumher having to explain her way out of a hole, or just disliking the game overall.

See this is why I think we should wait for a replacement for her overall, I think we should give the replacement the benefit of doubt for a while after they replace in, give them a few posts to understand their town, and the intonations and such of that new player will help us work out which one it was.

These are exactly the point I'm trying to get across and why I think Lucky is scummy for acting so dead set on Blopp being scum

[Raya36]

If I'm not mistaking, that's 4 votes. I have a TPR. Let's move on.

Not sure if this was discussed yet but if you have a tpr you need to claim the exact role. That's why we have a matrix setup. So we can confirm/deny it was a cc

[Raya36]

So you are advocating eliminating a claimed power role day 1 when, in claiming, my slot because self-resolving as the game goes on anyway?

No, I'm claiming my case is rock solid and you claiming PR doesn't dissuade me at all given that is exactly what you would do if you were Scum. Like, what is my incentive to believe you are telling the truth about being TPR?

My last newbie game we eliminated a TPR claim D1 and it was scum. I'm confident Lucky is scum

[Raya36]

Battle Mage replaces Blopp.

This is what we needed!

[Raya36]

@Raya, thank you for the time it took to respond to that wallpost. I'm about to turn in for the evening, so a more thorough reading of your response and a subsequent response from myself is going to have to wait until tomorrow. From a quick skim though, it's worth noting that while this account is my current main, it is not my first mafiascum account. I have ~40 newbie games played on this site since 2015.

Sorry it took so long. Life got busier than I planned.
(Forgot you were an SE not a newbie slot, oops)

[Raya36]

except for maybe some questionable music taste

Excuse you?

Sorry Clark, I am very much on Quick's side here. This is real music. That norma jean song found it's way on my playlist

[Raya36]

I went back to analyze the Blopp flake and it's so bizarre. I can see newbie players leaving for a bit and returning to see 4 votes on then as a bit overwhelming but I felt the pressure up to the point they removed their avatar was not that high. I've seen (and done so myself) people drilled early game as newbies which would cause enough frustration for a rage quit. This early wagon was rather tame. But at the same time why return at all to remove your avatar? Clearly no intention of returning and thus rage quit possibility over just not returning/forgetting about the site.

So here's the final scenario I have in my head. Blopp comes back because they remember they are in a mafia game, see 4 votes on them, says screw this, removes avatar and leaves forever.

Ok but this same reaction can come from town too.. It's not scum indicative.. It's NAI

And thus why I didn't join the Blopp wagon. I was giving the benefit of the doubt but at the same time understanding why someone would push it. I felt I had bigger fish to fry over the Blopp and Luciano case and had said I wouldn't really weigh in and focus elsewhere until a replacement came in.

Similarly now that BM has replaced in I want to see were Luciano goes from there.

This is good and town thinking. Scum would likely choose a side I think even just lightly.

[Raya36]

Also your music share with Raya seems very suspicious now. It's almost as if you could have had the conversation in a scum player thread but purposefully choose to do it on this thread as a weird distancing attempt.

That's nice.

I just like music lol

[Raya36]

Not sure if this was discussed yet but if you have a tpr you need to claim the exact role. That's why we have a matrix setup. So we can confirm/deny it was a cc

Also, nobody asked for a claim. Is a claim supposed to be automatic at E-1with nobody stating intent to hammer? And why is it more beneficial for town to have the specific role claims than it is for scum? Wouldn't knowing what setup we likely are in help scum more than town? Is counter-claiming D1 considered good play?

Remind me tomorrow and I'll find and link the game at the post needed for this explanation. It was explained well there and executed well and lead to a town win. The basic idea is that the matrix is to town's advantage to determine if a PR is viable or not since scum will ALWAYS claim a PR to not get lynched. We can't just get a claim as "TPR" and blindly trust it.

Also I'll respond to anything that needs responding to in your post about me tomorrow as well

[Raya36]

If I'm not mistaking, that's 4 votes. I have a TPR. Let's move on.

Not sure if this was discussed yet but if you have a tpr you need to claim the exact role. That's why we have a matrix setup. So we can confirm/deny it was a cc

No....

Noone has claimed intent to hammer. Why would we get an exact role claim?

Because Lucky already claimed a PR

[Raya36]

This is the game I was referring to
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=83266

This is where to start for the PR claim thing

You need to claim the exact role, Umlaut. If you just say "investigative PR", you can get away with living while scum, because town can't counterclaim you.

[Raya36]

This is the game I was referring to
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=83266

This is where to start for the PR claim thing

You need to claim the exact role, Umlaut. If you just say "investigative PR", you can get away with living while scum, because town can't counterclaim you.

Hectic is town in this and umlaut is scum btw

[Raya36]

I actually read that game because I was technically in it on the wining team in Newbie 2010

In that scenario, I agree, that the player in that spot has to claim an exact role.

The CRITICAL DIFFERENCE between the scenario here and in that game, was that Umlaut was at E-1, with INTENT TO HAMMER EXPRESSED.

I agree that there's a difference but Lucky has already claimed so we can't just let them slide by because they claimed a PR when it can't be verified.

[Raya36]

I don't see how PR speculation helps town at all.
Its just a matter of do you believe !TownPR-LL claims in that spot or not within the current gamestate. Nothing about the claim seemed fake to me.

I don't believe the claim. A TPR wouldn't claim so quick. And Lucky says he has experience in newbie games. He wouldn't claim the second he was put at E-1 without any intent. Its like he was waiting for that

[Raya36]

I think my whole case and how reactionary Lucky acted in response is enough on its own

I don't believe the claim at all. Scum ALWAYS claims a PR in this situation. So why are we just blindly trusting Lucky's PR claim when we don't even know the specific role and can just get by without a counterclaim

[Raya36]

It feels to me like his wagon got run up, he doesnt want town wasting town focussing on him, and doesnt care all that much about this game, so isnt that fussed about being night-killed.

I don't know where you're getting the don't care about the game vibe because those wall posts about me seemed like caring

[Raya36]

I think my whole case and how reactionary Lucky acted in response is enough on its own

I don't believe the claim at all. Scum ALWAYS claims a PR in this situation. So why are we just blindly trusting Lucky's PR claim when we don't even know the specific role and can just get by without a counterclaim

Who is the "we" that you refer to in this post?

We as in town in general

[Raya36]

Looker replaces Homura.

Hey Looker! Please tell me if I'm crazy about thinking Lucky is scum here and your thoughts on getting a proper claim since he claimed a TPR

[Raya36]

I can dig the "scum 101" thing. How do you square that with how Raya has been playing? She has been virtually solely focused on LL, and has given generous town-reads. That doesn't sound to me like a player who is fence-sitting or simply waiting for things to fall into place.

Being solely focused on one player and giving generous town-reads is pretty common scumplay. You town-read people because townies like to be town-read and then they support you on your miskick and you get to be all confused about how you were wrong and reevaluate later.

I'd disagree with that. More scumleans is what I see more often from scum

[Raya36]

The mis-coaching from Raya here gives me the creeps. "get out of a tough situation" is a telling choice of words - Raya clearly appreciates the 'case' isn't one which a newbie could easily refute despite the fact it isn't grounded in good logic. The inference here is that Raya is expecting (maybe hoping?) Blopp won't respond in a way which "gets them out of a tough situation" and is disappointed that she was given a proverbial lifeline.

Maybe I was wrong but if so I'll listen since you have much more experience than me but I don't see how what I said was wrong. I was frustrated that Clark's response might affect how Blopp responds to the case on him. I am not in any way suggesting not to react or respond to things that interest you within the thread. But it's not town oriented to respond to a case and defend someone else even if it wasn't intended as a defense. While the case was weak his reaction to it could be very telling. I think it's a stretch to say I was upset because I wanted Blopp to not be able to get out of the case.

On profile pic removal, no explanation here as to why that would be AI? I can't think why it would be.
And still pushing the slot after the inhabitant flakes out is probably mildly scummy given that the case wasn't anything to begin with - in other words, Lucky is less worried about getting a response from the player (despite earlier protestations) and more enthusiastic about running up the slot.

Exactly what I was trying to get across pretty much all game.

Hey, Raya. Fuck LuckyLuciano. I'm pretty sure he's just faking his outrage because he has no other tools in his skillset as scum. Him faking a PR was weak.

---

• Currently, flip preferences are: 36% LuckyLuciano or Battle Mage | 26% 72offsuit, JamSV, or ThirteenthJT | 16% LicketyQuickety | 12% ClarkBar | 10% Raya.

VOTE: LuckyLuciano

Thank you
Opinions from those with the most experience on whether or not Lucky should fully claim?

It feels to me like his wagon got run up, he doesnt want town wasting town focussing on him, and doesnt care all that much about this game, so isnt that fussed about being night-killed.

I don't know where you're getting the don't care about the game vibe because those wall posts about me seemed like caring

Why are you disputing what I said when it's obvious my read on him was correct. He is replacing out is he not?
So unless you think I am EXACTLY scum-teamed-with-LL, why question my read?

Responded to this before I saw the replacement request. I questioned it because I didn't agree. Also I still don't see where you got this read of not caring when he was posting wallposts. The replacement supports this but you posted this before that.

I think my whole case and how reactionary Lucky acted in response is enough on its own

I don't believe the claim at all. Scum ALWAYS claims a PR in this situation. So why are we just blindly trusting Lucky's PR claim when we don't even know the specific role and can just get by without a counterclaim

Who is the "we" that you refer to in this post?

We as in town in general

I'd like you to be more specific. WHICH particular players in particular werer you referring to?

Idk why you're nitpicking this. I wasn't referring to anyone in particular. Just we as town in general since as a group we were not forcing Lucky to claim anything specific

Not only does he include himself in the "we" of town, which is independently scummy, but more importantly,

also does not specifically refer to the specific players that stated believed LL's claim was genuine.

How is it scummy to include myself in the we of town?? What would you rather I say? And why do I need to individually refer to those players. I'm not attacking them, I'm just trying to explain why we should be getting a claim.

Apologies raya, I've been saying "he". My bad.

That's ok

It's the scummiest post, because not many people have actually come out and said they believed LL's claim was real, despite raya saying
"So why are we just blindly trusting Lucky's PR claim"

Why didn;t raya just direct that towards me?
It gives me the impresssion raya knows I;m town and has extrapolated my view onto "town" in general.

Because I wasn't attacking you! I was trying to convince town in general. And lots of people posted since the claim without demanding a proper claim. I'm not singling anyone out.

The fact raya disappeared, after I challenged her, is pretty telling in its own right.

I work long shifts and have plans some nights too. I was just busy...
Wallposts are pretty discouraging too.


@Porkens, convince me you're town and not scum seeing that Lucky's approach didn't get anywhere and doing a whole 180 with the slot for towncred.
My vote is staying here as well

[Raya36]

You're sounding kinda LAMIST

[Raya36]

Nice to meet you too. Your slot is the one I've been the most interested in but it's hard to question you about what Lucky has done. I want more input before I start advocating for you to claim

[Raya36]

Why does 72 get a cookie?

[Raya36]

Why do you want more input?

Incase it's not as town oriented as I think

[Raya36]

Why does 72 get a cookie?

Did you read my opening post?

Yes

[Raya36]

Why do you want more input?

Incase it's not as town oriented as I think

And why are you concerned about whether advocating that I full claim be viewed as town oriented?

I'm not concerned about it being viewed as town oriented. I'm concerned that getting you to full claim is a mistake that will hurt town

[Raya36]

Ok in that case since Clark started intent we do need a full proper claim

[Raya36]

Why do you want more input?

Incase it's not as town oriented as I think

And why are you concerned about whether advocating that I full claim be viewed as town oriented?

I'm not concerned about it being viewed as town oriented. I'm concerned that getting you to full claim is a mistake that will hurt town

Okedoke. Do YOU think it would hurt town?

I think it could hurt town without intent placed on you because that's outing a PR for nothing if your slot is telling the truth and a town PR. Now that there's intent it's definitely beneficial for town for you to fully claim.

[Raya36]

Why do you want more input?

Incase it's not as town oriented as I think

And why are you concerned about whether advocating that I full claim be viewed as town oriented?

I'm not concerned about it being viewed as town oriented. I'm concerned that getting you to full claim is a mistake that will hurt town

Okedoke. Do YOU think it would hurt town?

Actually, don’t answer that.

Too late. I go post by post ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Raya36]

No it’s fine!

Anyway, reya, what do you think about the reasoning for the two votes on you?

72 was attacking me since the very start so he's at least very consistent to be voting me. Don't think it's scummy for me to have lots of townleans. I tend to townhunt as much as I scumhunt and I usually have plenty of townleans D1. I feel like he's been putting a lot of his attention on me yet I don't feel pressured by him? So I guess I don't think the reasoning is that good. His analysis of my LL push isn't bad though and makes sense. But it's just kinda felt no matter what I say he twists it to be scummy which is why I've kinda been ignoring his posts like that. That including myself in the "we" of town is for example something that makes me feel like he's just twisting my words to be scummy. That's super nitpicky. But I don't like to read too much into people pushing me because I always immediately assume it's scum trying to make me sound like scum. Or he's town tunneling me.

thethirteenth feels a lot more natural than 72. More reasonable questioning and much less aggressive. They're mostly both going after my LL case but his push on me feels a lot calmer. He also asked for second opinions on my iso and stuff.

[Raya36]

I’m not going to spend any time or energy trying to defend LL’s play, evaluate his ISO, or trying to make a towncase of it. Like I said

i thought he was scum

. His decisions were his, and they were bad.

My job here is not to avoid getting hanged. It’s to help the town get information.

Re: your answer. I’m going to be pedantic here and ask you in a different way: in a vacuum, do you think claiming a PR shakes attention away from the claimant?

I'm really getting the innocent act from Porkens. If he's scum it's really the best move he can make in his position.

[Raya36]

Less keen on the progression below from Raya. Moves from targetting town to probable scum, only after momentum has shifted in this direction. Easily compatible as a partner for Lucky who decided to start distancing now they are under pressure. Red is gross - despite previously backing the case on Blopp, now backtracks and says the case is weak, but notes (with a hint of regret?) clumsily that if the case was stronger she could move back onto it:

Lucky and blopp. Maybe Clark but I'm unsure

Where's your vote then?

My vote is "on" Blopp I just don't want him at L-1

Perhaps it is a coincidence, but since being wagoned, Blopp has removed their profile pic. That means they have been onsite and decided not to post. So now we have her ignoring the initial wagon that I started with 72o, despite posting after it began and ignoring my case. In addition, we have her logging on to remove her profile pic and still not posting. Feels a lot like giving up to me.

This is a bad case and very reachy.

UNVOTE:
I don't want a quick hammer. L-2 is plenty for pressure. Scumlean on Lucky for not removing his vote. Could be hoping for that quickhammer

Is he your only scumlean or do you have more?

Lucky and blopp. Maybe Clark but I'm unsure

"I scumlean Lucky for possibly wanting a quick hammer on my other scumlean."

For the record, I'm expecting Blopp not to post again until the slot is replaced, and if the slot claims VT I will be pushing for the slot to be eliminated.

Just because I scumlean him doesnt mean I'm right (I never take associations into account D1. I often have multiple scumread that don't work together). And its perfectly viable to be concerned about someone not removing their vote at L-1 when Blopp hasn't even talked yet.

Actually since I can't vote Blopp right now VOTE: Lucky. I think this is more likely anyway. Your stats case also was reachy and the whole basis of your scumread isn't concrete.

I would accept your case if and only if it was supporting evidence of a much stronger and more viable case.

I was saying that the case is really bad on it's own but if it was used to support a much better case it would be viable. There is no better case so I'm not saying I'd move back to it.

[Raya36]

This list is total crap and almost completely upside down.

Lucky
72o
Thirteen
Looker
Quick
JamSV
Clark
BM
Raya

About half the day I’m scumreading 72, although he started to pick up towards the end here. I don’t hate his thoughts on reya tbf.

Raya is townlean tho

Clark and jam are probtown
Bm and quick are probtown
Looker and thirteen are leanscum

72 has no votes? That’s rediculois. VOTE: 72

I’ll take that as a yes. Tell me what you think of this readslist:


Looker replaced Homura: Lurky as fuck. How can I read this?
Battle Mage replaced Blopp: bloop was zero entity, BM is just filling space
72offsuit: scummy as shit, should be lynched today
JamSV replaced individual: arrogant annoying but town
TheThirteenthJT: ehhhh town I guess talks a lot isn’t obviously bad
ClarkBar: town ish I guess
LicketyQuickety (SE) replaced EchoVision: durrrr not too much scumtelling but I dunno

Raya36 (SE) : kinda sheepy? Leaaaaaaanscum

Porkens (SE) replaced LuckyLuciano: total town hero


P. Edit beetlejuice!

Why did you vote for bloop?

I barely posted since your opening. And I don't remember being sheepy or changing my stance even since then. So how did that read on me change?

[Raya36]

Ok sorry about contributing to 10 pages today. I just finished my secodnnd read through and here’s my new spicy take:

Reya is ropebait and scum are setting up to mishang her.

El Town:
JamSV replaced individual
ClarkBar
LicketyQuickety (SE) replaced EchoVision
Raya36 (SE)
Porkens (SE) replaced LuckyLuciano

Scum are in:
Looker replaced Homura
72offsuit
Battle Mage replaced Blopp
TheThirteenthJT

(Now there is an alternate universe where Echo was scum with Blooper but that’s pretty tinfoil)

Anyway, could be shit, but there you have it.

VOTE: TheThirteenthJT

If you think scum are setting up a mislynch on me why thirteenth over 72 who has been a lot more aggressive about me being scum?

[Raya36]

Hey, Raya. Fuck LuckyLuciano. I'm pretty sure he's just faking his outrage because he has no other tools in his skillset as scum. Him faking a PR was weak.

---

• Currently, flip preferences are: 36% LuckyLuciano or Battle Mage | 26% 72offsuit, JamSV, or ThirteenthJT | 16% LicketyQuickety | 12% ClarkBar | 10% Raya.

VOTE: LuckyLuciano

Thank you
Opinions from those with the most experience on whether or not Lucky should fully claim?

I'm amazed he hasn't claimed already.

Well he was never at E-1 with intent so I'm more surprised there was any claim in the first place. I do find it very scummy that he was willing to claim he was a town PR but refused to claim what PR. I mean now that he claimed he was a PR he was obviously going to be the NK target. So saying his specific role only would've helped town. Actually with this logic Porkens should probably full claim.

[Raya36]

What would be the best move as town?

Not worry so much about what people thought of LL and not worry so much about being lynched to put up an innocence act. To get as many reads out as possible to help if you were to be flipped

[Raya36]

Hey, Raya. Fuck LuckyLuciano. I'm pretty sure he's just faking his outrage because he has no other tools in his skillset as scum. Him faking a PR was weak.

---

• Currently, flip preferences are: 36% LuckyLuciano or Battle Mage | 26% 72offsuit, JamSV, or ThirteenthJT | 16% LicketyQuickety | 12% ClarkBar | 10% Raya.

VOTE: LuckyLuciano

Thank you
Opinions from those with the most experience on whether or not Lucky should fully claim?

I'm amazed he hasn't claimed already.

Well he was never at E-1 with intent so I'm more surprised there was any claim in the first place. I do find it very scummy that he was willing to claim he was a town PR but refused to claim what PR. I mean now that he claimed he was a PR he was obviously going to be the NK target. So saying his specific role only would've helped town. Actually with this logic Porkens should probably full claim.

what do you think of Porkens hinting that he is a PR after all?

What choice does he have?

[Raya36]

@Raya36,

Any way I can talk you off the ledge to vote for Scumbro BM?

Absolutely not but you can try

[Raya36]

Can you give me your case all in one post

[Raya36]

No. We get Porkens today. Why lynch who you think Porkens buddy is before confirming Porkens is scum

[Raya36]

Vote for Porken's then Clark. He's at E-2 now

[Raya36]

Towniest
TheThirteenthJT
JamSV
Raya36
72offsuit
ClarkBar
Looker
Lickety Quickety
Porkens
Scummiest

Convinced the scumpair is Lickety Quickety and Porkens. Reads subject to change depending on flips, but that's where I am now.

Grateful if, before going to night, people can give comments on Quick, in particular his progression on LL which I highlighted in post 789 (noting that now he claims LL is null).

You are so full of it BM Your entire catchup is spewing noise, and you should be hanged tomorrow when I flip town.

I’m the most dangerous role to scum in this setup.
Vanilla Town.

VOTE: Battlemage

You're telling me that LL claimed a TPR when there wasn't even intent but was really VT. That's hard to believe. Why would LL do that

[Raya36]

Raya are you all caught up?

Just caught up now and I'm not happy with the turn of events on Porkens. I don't want Clark eliminated. I'm very confident Porkens is scum

[Raya36]

Somebody else get on the Porkens wagon

The difficulty to get this through should be telling enough

[Raya36]

Somebody else get on the Porkens wagon

The difficulty to get this through should be telling enough

Stop you are going to make yourself look scummy and then they will get you tomorrow.

I won't look scummy when you flip scum

[Raya36]

Somebody else get on the Porkens wagon

The difficulty to get this through should be telling enough

Stop you are going to make yourself look scummy and then they will get you tomorrow.

I won't look scummy when you flip scum

No, in that case I’d agree. I don’t think you’d bus a parter like this. I guess I could be wrong about that though. Sadly not going to work out that way.

Still playing the innocent card. You keep saying you're town but your play indicates scum

[Raya36]

If Porkens really does flip town then I have no idea what was with all the claims from that slot.

I suspect he's scum though and doing some last minute distancing and setup work

[Raya36]

We don't know if we were wrong about porkens yet. I still expect to see him flip red

[Raya36]

If Porkens really does flip town then I have no idea what was with all the claims from that slot.

I suspect he's scum though and doing some last minute distancing and setup work

Why would he be lying at this point?

Still distancing, still setting up miskills, having fun with it

[Raya36]

jesus christ. i'm alive and all my suspects are dead

and town

.

initial thoughts: Jam-scum wouldn't have made that weird play yesterday around the Porkens wagon. Too conspicuous and odd for no reason.
Raya's posts at end of day had conviction and didn't leave herself open to a Porkens town-flip. Felt legit.
Must be at least 1 scum on the Porkens wagon because there was no reason not to be, therefore must be TTJT and/or Looker.
need to revisit 72offsuit as i think i basically locktowned him based on pork being scum.

I may be biased but 72 has been really aggressively pushing me and the reasoning doesnt all feel that great

[Raya36]

jesus christ. i'm alive and all my suspects are dead

and town

.

I'm sure I'm getting NKed tonight when you flip scum anyway, but they'll lynch your obvscum buddy Quick tomorrow thanks to me!

This tough for me, and somewhat WIFOMEY (apologies for using an acronym as a verb) but would scum NK their biggest scum-read? Anybody is free to weigh in here.

I think so. For wifom and to maintain a town leading position with less suspicion held on them

[Raya36]

jesus christ. i'm alive and all my suspects are dead

and town

.

I'm sure I'm getting NKed tonight when you flip scum anyway, but they'll lynch your obvscum buddy Quick tomorrow thanks to me!

This tough for me, and somewhat WIFOMEY (apologies for using an acronym as a verb) but would scum NK their biggest scum-read? Anybody is free to weigh in here.

it's WIFOM really, but yeah, as a general rule I probably wouldn't because it basically pins you on 2 mis-elims and discredits your reads.

Having said that, he suspected me too, so 3 probable explanations for the NK:

1. I killed Quick because he suspected me.
2. Someone else killed Quick to make me look bad.
3. Someone killed Quick because they thought he was a PR, or he was an SE (although little evidence of either that I saw).

Why include yourself in the explanations....

[Raya36]

jesus christ. i'm alive and all my suspects are dead

and town

.

initial thoughts: Jam-scum wouldn't have made that weird play yesterday around the Porkens wagon. Too conspicuous and odd for no reason.
Raya's posts at end of day had conviction and didn't leave herself open to a Porkens town-flip. Felt legit.
Must be at least 1 scum on the Porkens wagon because there was no reason not to be, therefore must be TTJT and/or Looker.
need to revisit 72offsuit as i think i basically locktowned him based on pork being scum.

I may be biased but 72 has been really aggressively pushing me and the reasoning doesnt all feel that great

Then convince me you are town. I have 4 scumreads, it needs to go down to 2.
Who is scum? Why are they scum? Make it foolproof.

Hurt my hand so I'd rather not type out a whole case but tomorrow I plan to go over some associations with the lynch and NK. See if I can find anything. Hopefully that will help

[Raya36]

Forgot tO add BM +72 scum team. You have two players juipsstifying you are town at the start of the day phase based on the flip. When in all honesty I feel that the flips only implicates you more because of the constant buddying with LL before Porkens and counterwagoning day 1. If you flip red your partner will be either BM and Clark.

I am also ok with a Clark vote here because of Day 1 play and I don't think early day 2 play has been helping my thoughts. Agrees you are town 72, tries to deflect attention to Jamsv, and agrees with my list despite 72 being my top scumread and town for them? Clark flip implicates BM for me.

Now BM as individual hasn't been giving me too many scumvibes, may be biased for my bro here. Associations a re what have him as a suspect.

Raya has been the scummiest player day 1 for me (Clark almost tied) and I need to see more from them here Day 2. At this point my advice would be to stop worrying about the pressure on you and instead helping scumhunt since most of their posts have been about defending themselves and I know I've been stuck in that pocket. This is also the biggest doubt I have reflecting their play.

Most of my posts were pushing Porkens slot? Not defending myself?

[Raya36]

jesus christ. i'm alive and all my suspects are dead

and town

.

initial thoughts: Jam-scum wouldn't have made that weird play yesterday around the Porkens wagon. Too conspicuous and odd for no reason.
Raya's posts at end of day had conviction and didn't leave herself open to a Porkens town-flip. Felt legit.
Must be at least 1 scum on the Porkens wagon because there was no reason not to be, therefore must be TTJT and/or Looker.
need to revisit 72offsuit as i think i basically locktowned him based on pork being scum.

I may be biased but 72 has been really aggressively pushing me and the reasoning doesnt all feel that great

I'm not even voting for you. If you are town you are playing horribly.

referring to 729 for example

[Raya36]

jesus christ. i'm alive and all my suspects are dead

and town

.

I'm sure I'm getting NKed tonight when you flip scum anyway, but they'll lynch your obvscum buddy Quick tomorrow thanks to me!

This tough for me, and somewhat WIFOMEY (apologies for using an acronym as a verb) but would scum NK their biggest scum-read? Anybody is free to weigh in here.

it's WIFOM really, but yeah, as a general rule I probably wouldn't because it basically pins you on 2 mis-elims and discredits your reads.

Having said that, he suspected me too, so 3 probable explanations for the NK:

1. I killed Quick because he suspected me.
2. Someone else killed Quick to make me look bad.
3. Someone killed Quick because they thought he was a PR, or he was an SE (although little evidence of either that I saw).

Why include yourself in the explanations....

Trying to be helpful by setting out all the possible options (obviously it isn't 1 but not everyone knows that).

But if you know it's not a possible option why even include it in YOUR list

[Raya36]

I still don;t get why !townRaya brings this up when its a new day and I was clearly voting for clark, prior to actually posting thoughts on others. So self-centric. It's scummy.

Like I said. I'm a bit detached from the game the past few days since I've been so busy and this is something that stood out for me. Maybe just because it was all directed at me but it still stood out