Newbie 2016: Snapdragons (Game Over)

[72offsuit]

VOTE: individual

Anyone who wants to be an individual and refuses to conform to the town's policies is sure to be scum

[72offsuit]

Ive previously played with TTJT and LL

[72offsuit]

Hmm. Well this is only my second game, and my first one was out of RVS and humming along pretty quickly. So... not sure if there are any other good strategies to break the ice a little.

I'm so glad you asked!
There is a fantastic scumhunting tool called RQS (that's Random Question Stage to the uninitiated).
I do not proclaim to have devised this foolproof tool.

1. What is your experience in mafia outside of mafiascum?
2. Do you prefer playing as town or scum?
3. What do you think of lynching lurkers?
4. What do you think of lynching liars?

[72offsuit]

He's mafia, my vote is no longer random.

Agreed.

VOTE: Blopp

[72offsuit]

VOTE: Blopp is at L-2.

[72offsuit]

Err E-2

[72offsuit]

E-3*

[72offsuit]

Hmm. Well this is only my second game, and my first one was out of RVS and humming along pretty quickly. So... not sure if there are any other good strategies to break the ice a little.

I'm so glad you asked!
There is a fantastic scumhunting tool called RQS (that's Random Question Stage to the uninitiated).
I do not proclaim to have devised this foolproof tool.

1. What is your experience in mafia outside of mafiascum?
2. Do you prefer playing as town or scum?
3. What do you think of lynching lurkers?
4. What do you think of lynching liars?

1. This is my first forum game but I have played mafia (or werewolf) a few times at parties live (or IRL as the cool kids say it).
2. I haven't played enough to say if I have a preference yet but town was fun when I played with my friends. One of my friends has a really bad poker face so it was fairly easy to see that she was lying to us. I had an "Aha!" moment.
3. I would say not good. Sometimes someone is shy but innocent. I think I'd rather try to hear their thought process first.
4. I'd say good?

What about you @72offsuit?

Nah, ill abstain from answering . The RQS tool is incompatible with myself. My alignment cannot be verified via RQS.

[72offsuit]

He's mafia, my vote is no longer random.

(s)he's*

The devil is in the detail.

[72offsuit]

Too tired, will post tomorrow morning

[72offsuit]

As a matter of courtesy, it would be nice if somebody replaces in to give them the benefit of the doubt,

Replacing into a slot doesn't make it town.

we have more than a week to make a safe kill.

Why is a longer day phase inherently better than a short one?

Whether its scummy or a bad play is a different kettle of fish.

This is a false dichotomy.

1. I never said it made them town
2. Helps prevention of a town elimination
3. No it isn't but I like your attempt at discrediting. There isn't town incentive to end a day early. The longer the day the less chance of killing of a town, similarly, if a Cop, you want time to work out who to investigate, Doctor's want time to learn who to heal, Trackers to track, Jailkeepers to Jail, Friendly Neighbour to Neighbour, Masons to get extra stuff worked out amongst the two of them. Ending the day early allows the following:

• Town elimination
• Shorter discussion and the prevention of discussion
• Free time for Scum under suspicion to work out excuses
• Less time for Scum to be found

The list can go on but they're the most important to take into account.

To disallow a day phase to be brought out sufficiently, it is inherently anti-town. If somebody purposely does something anti-town there are two options:
They are scum
OR
They are town and it's a bad play.

We have arrived at the simple conclusion I got to with more detailed explanation than you simply dismissing it as a false dichotomy. A dichotomy would be correct, but not a false dichotomy.

PS I also find it bad practice to quote an answer to the question you're going to ask...

we have more than a week

to make a safe kill.

Why is a longer day phase inherently better than a short one?

Leaning on Lucky, mostly for his post, and partly because he's an English lit student who doesn't quote context to make a quote more accurate.

NAI post. I don;t really see the !scumAgenda here. Its not like he is pushing for a quickhammer.
LL always states he prefers shorter day ones.
I've come round to his line of thinking too.

[72offsuit]

@Nahdia:

Ecovision has 0 posts but hasn;t been prodded?

[72offsuit]

@Nahdia:

Ecovision has 0 posts but hasn;t been prodded?

[72offsuit]

Hmm. Well this is only my second game, and my first one was out of RVS and humming along pretty quickly. So... not sure if there are any other good strategies to break the ice a little.

I'm so glad you asked!
There is a fantastic scumhunting tool called RQS (that's Random Question Stage to the uninitiated).
I do not proclaim to have devised this foolproof tool.

1. What is your experience in mafia outside of mafiascum?
2. Do you prefer playing as town or scum?
3. What do you think of lynching lurkers?
4. What do you think of lynching liars?

1. This is my first forum game but I have played mafia (or werewolf) a few times at parties live (or IRL as the cool kids say it).
2. I haven't played enough to say if I have a preference yet but town was fun when I played with my friends. One of my friends has a really bad poker face so it was fairly easy to see that she was lying to us. I had an "Aha!" moment.
3. I would say not good. Sometimes someone is shy but innocent. I think I'd rather try to hear their thought process first.
4. I'd say good?

What about you @72offsuit?

1. Played about 6-8 games on here. Have played fast-paced browser mafia on epicmafia prior to that.
2. Town. I enjoy the deduction aspect of town. Mafia is stressful and requires effort.
3. Depends. Lurking alone is usually NAI. Active lurking, lurking at critical times is scummy or flat out useless.
4. Yes.

[72offsuit]

UNVOTE: 72
VOTE: Blopp

Why the change of vote?
Same question for 72

23 - dat smiley face --- bad overly friendly/buddy-buddy vibe.
LAMIST - "Lets move out of RVS" with 0 game-related content

[72offsuit]

Hmm. Well this is only my second game, and my first one was out of RVS and humming along pretty quickly. So... not sure if there are any other good strategies to break the ice a little.

I'm so glad you asked!
There is a fantastic scumhunting tool called RQS (that's Random Question Stage to the uninitiated).
I do not proclaim to have devised this foolproof tool.

1. What is your experience in mafia outside of mafiascum?
2. Do you prefer playing as town or scum?
3. What do you think of lynching lurkers?
4. What do you think of lynching liars?

1. Extensive play close to 10 yrs ago. Third game here.
2. Mafia.
3. You know my answer here. Not really but might be changing my opinion on this. Depends on circumstances.
4. A bit of weird question. Context is important.


Now let me add two more.

1. Are you a straightforward player or like to do a lot of private analysis?
2. How upset would you be if you are lynched Day 1 from a scale of 1-10? 10 being highly upset.

1. Most of the time pretty straight-forward. Sometimes I can be a bit manipulative as town or scum to suit an agenda.
2. 15/10

[72offsuit]

UNVOTE:
I don't want a quick hammer. L-2 is plenty for pressure. Scumlean on Lucky for not removing his vote. Could be hoping for that quickhammer

LAMIST. Scumlean on Lucky for not removing his vote... lol. Feels like a forced post.

-0.5 Gangrenous Limb

[72offsuit]

UNVOTE:
I don't want a quick hammer. L-2 is plenty for pressure. Scumlean on Lucky for not removing his vote. Could be hoping for that quickhammer

Is he your only scumlean or do you have more?

It's page 3. What are you expecting?

[72offsuit]

Lucky and blopp. Maybe Clark but I'm unsure

Where's your vote then?

My vote is "on" Blopp I just don't want him at L-1

Perhaps it is a coincidence, but since being wagoned, Blopp has removed their profile pic. That means they have been onsite and decided not to post. So now we have her ignoring the initial wagon that I started with 72o, despite posting after it began and ignoring my case. In addition, we have her logging on to remove her profile pic and still not posting. Feels a lot like giving up to me.

This is a bad case and very reachy.

Also can you all look back at my two questions (rqs) I asked. I really want to know the answer for the first one.

I'll do this in my next post.

UNVOTE:
I don't want a quick hammer. L-2 is plenty for pressure. Scumlean on Lucky for not removing his vote. Could be hoping for that quickhammer

Is he your only scumlean or do you have more?

Lucky and blopp. Maybe Clark but I'm unsure

"I scumlean Lucky for possibly wanting a quick hammer on my other scumlean."

For the record, I'm expecting Blopp not to post again until the slot is replaced, and if the slot claims VT I will be pushing for the slot to be eliminated.

Just because I scumlean him doesnt mean I'm right (I never take associations into account D1. I often have multiple scumread that don't work together). And its perfectly viable to be concerned about someone not removing their vote at L-1 when Blopp hasn't even talked yet.

Actually since I can't vote Blopp right now VOTE: Lucky. I think this is more likely anyway. Your stats case also was reachy and the whole basis of your scumread isn't concrete. I would accept your case if and only if it was supporting evidence of a much stronger and more viable case.

It's page 4. What sort of case are you expecting?

[72offsuit]

Hmm. Well this is only my second game, and my first one was out of RVS and humming along pretty quickly. So... not sure if there are any other good strategies to break the ice a little.

I'm so glad you asked!
There is a fantastic scumhunting tool called RQS (that's Random Question Stage to the uninitiated).
I do not proclaim to have devised this foolproof tool.

1. What is your experience in mafia outside of mafiascum?
2. Do you prefer playing as town or scum?
3. What do you think of lynching lurkers?
4. What do you think of lynching liars?

1. This is my first forum game but I have played mafia (or werewolf) a few times at parties live (or IRL as the cool kids say it).
2. I haven't played enough to say if I have a preference yet but town was fun when I played with my friends. One of my friends has a really bad poker face so it was fairly easy to see that she was lying to us. I had an "Aha!" moment.
3. I would say not good. Sometimes someone is shy but innocent. I think I'd rather try to hear their thought process first.
4. I'd say good?

What about you @72offsuit?

Nah, ill abstain from answering . The RQS tool is incompatible with myself. My alignment cannot be verified via RQS.

So then. Let us do some nitpicking, it's all issues with the process. Experience is NAI. Preferance of play is NAI. Lurker interpretations are NAI. Lying is hard to identify as lying rather than a mistake, similarly, also NAI. However, refusing to answer a question, while NAI, it certainly doesn't look great for town. Address this please, or respond to Blopp. Its difficult to identify a lier so the closest thing one can do is to vote for a hypocrite.

I deliberately didn;t answer to bait someone into asking this. I was always going to answer them.

[72offsuit]

I deliberately didn;t answer to bait someone into asking this. I was always going to answer them.

Well then, Mr Sherlock, you've successfully "baited" me into asking it. So do explain what it would not mean, now that I have been "baited". Does it make me a scum lean? A scum read? A town lean? A town read? Do be creative with your explanation. I'm not as smart as Watson unfortunately. It seems (is) as if, you don't have an explanation or a strand of logic to deal with my queries, and have gone into 5D chess level tactics claiming I was "baited", when in fact you were just being hypocritical.

Slightly +town for asking.
I'm not always going to get a perfectly alignment-indicative answer, but its always worth a try.

What does !scumMe gain from not answering?

[72offsuit]

UNVOTE: 72
VOTE: Blopp

Why the change of vote?
Same question for 72

23 - dat smiley face --- bad overly friendly/buddy-buddy vibe.
LAMIST - "Lets move out of RVS" with 0 game-related content

Have your thoughts on Blopp changed at all?

No. Why do you ask?

[72offsuit]

UNVOTE:
I don't want a quick hammer. L-2 is plenty for pressure. Scumlean on Lucky for not removing his vote. Could be hoping for that quickhammer

LAMIST. Scumlean on Lucky for not removing his vote... lol. Feels like a forced post.

-0.5 Gangrenous Limb

Have I told you that I still hate when you assign scumpoints like this?

Maybe. Why?

[72offsuit]

What's everyone's thoughts on how Homura positioned herself while JamSV and I were arguing last night?

Nothing pinged me either way

[72offsuit]

I wonder if it'll be like last game and the bulk of the players are replaced.

By the way Clark may I ask for your opinion on 72 and Lucky? Its okay if you're unsure, its still early in Day 1

I'm unsure. I'm enduring a learning curve on this site. I have to learn to separate personality from actual play. Lucky is hard nut to crack. He has a big ego (not an attack, Lucky) and his approach is unique. I guess I'm less interested in Lucky than I am in his wagon, which I'll look at more closely tomorrow.

7 2 off-suit is another matter. No comment yet, I'm a little tired and will post more tomorrow. I didn't like that this game had (in my mind) noteworthy developments that were worth a quick comment, and 72 declined despite being active elsewhere. And I really didn't like that my expertly crafted post referring to 72 and that specific issue went unnoticed. C'mon, how many poker references do I have to throw in?

In general, I'll be much more myself tomorrow. Had a bit of a shit day.

What's so glaringly noteworthy that I have ignored/ not commented on?

[72offsuit]

Why are you asking me for a read on lucky in the middle of your reads list?

[72offsuit]

UNVOTE:
I don't want a quick hammer. L-2 is plenty for pressure. Scumlean on Lucky for not removing his vote. Could be hoping for that quickhammer

Is he your only scumlean or do you have more?

It's page 3. What are you expecting?

Valid point but obviously he had multiple leans. Do you feel they were forced 72? Like he felt pressured to answer so he did?

Yes. Names 2 and a half scumleans in 69 feels like a blurted out response.

By 181 Raya has 4 townleans/reads, which feels like way too many from a town PoV at this stage of the game.

The Homura townread is the sort of read I make as scum on my scumbuddy. "Similar thoughts to myself" --> its the sort of statement, which you cant really test the veracity of.

Dumps me in as a null, still doesnt explain how my actions further scum agenda, or why someone of a scum mindset makes aforementioned plays.
If genuinely believes that my RQS is active lurking filler, then why am I not a scumread?

If I was to take a stab at the game solve, I would say Raya + Homura purely off that reads list.

[72offsuit]

Why are you asking me for a read on lucky in the middle of your reads list?

I like to ask questions on players I'm unsure of. Sometimes I stick it in my readslist. My readslists are mostly just reference for myself. Could you answer please?

Isn't it Scummy for 72 to ask that?

You tell me. Is it?

[72offsuit]

Why are you asking me for a read on lucky in the middle of your reads list?

I like to ask questions on players I'm unsure of. Sometimes I stick it in my readslist. My readslists are mostly just reference for myself. Could you answer please?

Null.

[72offsuit]

You can take a look at my meta if you want 72. 4 townleans/reads early game is not unusual for me. multiple scumleans isn't either. And I'm sure you can find reads similar to my read on Homura too.

You're not scumread because my RQS statement is very weak and can only be used as a statement to back up a stronger case.

1. I rarely meta dive, and when I do it's not very effective.
2. I don;t doubt that you have similar reads as town to your read on homura. That's exactly how I play as scum, imitate my town game as much as I can.
Regardless, the Homura association is just a slight ping.

[72offsuit]

UNVOTE:
I don't want a quick hammer. L-2 is plenty for pressure. Scumlean on Lucky for not removing his vote. Could be hoping for that quickhammer

Is he your only scumlean or do you have more?

It's page 3. What are you expecting?

Valid point but obviously he had multiple leans. Do you feel they were forced 72? Like he felt pressured to answer so he did?

What's your point?

Yes. Names 2 and a half scumleans in 69 feels like a blurted out response.

By 181 Raya has 4 townleans/reads, which feels like way too many from a town PoV at this stage of the game.

The Homura townread is the sort of read I make as scum on my scumbuddy. "Similar thoughts to myself" --> its the sort of statement, which you cant really test the veracity of.

Dumps me in as a null, still doesnt explain how my actions further scum agenda, or why someone of a scum mindset makes aforementioned plays.
If genuinely believes that my RQS is active lurking filler, then why am I not a scumread?

If I was to take a stab at the game solve, I would say Raya + Homura purely off that reads list.

72's case on Blopp: Agreeing with Lucky. 26
Now take a look at what I made bold in his quote. Huh. Spooky coincidence.

[72offsuit]

Something went wrong there with the quote.

@ Jam: What point are you trying to make?

[72offsuit]

Why are you asking me for a read on lucky in the middle of your reads list?

I like to ask questions on players I'm unsure of. Sometimes I stick it in my readslist. My readslists are mostly just reference for myself. Could you answer please?

Isn't it Scummy for 72 to ask that?

How so?

Why aks that? Never heard or seen that it is or should be Scummy to ask a question in the middle of a readslist. Like, it's totally something I can see Scum asking to try and look like they are Scum hunting, but not something I can really see Town asking that thinking, "Hmm, seems pretty out of the ordinary you ask a question mid RL. I bet if I ask them why they did that they couldn't come up with an answer if they are Scum." Yeah, not really seeing that coming from Town. Unless 72 has a gob of experience, but even then there are way better things to talk about than something that doesn't really seem Scummy inherently. 72's follow up doesn't really look good either.

Then vote for me. Put your money where your mouth is.

[72offsuit]

Nvm, u did, no surprises there.

[72offsuit]

Something went wrong there with the quote.

@ Jam: What point are you trying to make?

Nothing really, its simply putting it out there. If you were going to scum read Raya in the future for her interaction with Homura, the same can somewhat be said for you, not as efficient a point as a it would be when used on you compared to Raya, but it is still important to keep in the back of our minds should that scenario occur. While I do appreciate that you added a tiny bit more explanation to your Blopp case, 163 I dislike.

You aren;t comparing apples to apples here. You are comparing apples to planes.

I scumread Raya, and working off that assumption, think Homura seems the most likely partner at this stage based off that readslist
I believe Raya's rationale for townreading Homura (mind-melding) is a scum tendency

I have a similar read on blopa's entrance into the game as LL. I haven;t posted a reads list.

I still don;t get what point you are trying to make here in your comparison.

[72offsuit]

There's a LOT more that goes into playing as Scum than simply copying your Town game. Just saying.

There is only one way of playing scum?
Oh, please tell me more.

[72offsuit]

Why are you asking me for a read on lucky in the middle of your reads list?

I like to ask questions on players I'm unsure of. Sometimes I stick it in my readslist. My readslists are mostly just reference for myself. Could you answer please?

Isn't it Scummy for 72 to ask that?

How so?

Why aks that? Never heard or seen that it is or should be Scummy to ask a question in the middle of a readslist. Like, it's totally something I can see Scum asking to try and look like they are Scum hunting, but not something I can really see Town asking that thinking, "Hmm, seems pretty out of the ordinary you ask a question mid RL. I bet if I ask them why they did that they couldn't come up with an answer if they are Scum." Yeah, not really seeing that coming from Town. Unless 72 has a gob of experience, but even then there are way better things to talk about than something that doesn't really seem Scummy inherently. 72's follow up doesn't really look good either.

72 has seemed evasive. But I'm not sure what to make of that

Can you post specifically in which posts I was evasive?

[72offsuit]

Lucky and blopp. Maybe Clark but I'm unsure

Where's your vote then?

My vote is "on" Blopp I just don't want him at L-1

Perhaps it is a coincidence, but since being wagoned, Blopp has removed their profile pic. That means they have been onsite and decided not to post. So now we have her ignoring the initial wagon that I started with 72o, despite posting after it began and ignoring my case. In addition, we have her logging on to remove her profile pic and still not posting. Feels a lot like giving up to me.

This is a bad case and very reachy.

Also can you all look back at my two questions (rqs) I asked. I really want to know the answer for the first one.

I'll do this in my next post.

UNVOTE:
I don't want a quick hammer. L-2 is plenty for pressure. Scumlean on Lucky for not removing his vote. Could be hoping for that quickhammer

Is he your only scumlean or do you have more?

Lucky and blopp. Maybe Clark but I'm unsure

"I scumlean Lucky for possibly wanting a quick hammer on my other scumlean."

For the record, I'm expecting Blopp not to post again until the slot is replaced, and if the slot claims VT I will be pushing for the slot to be eliminated.

Just because I scumlean him doesnt mean I'm right (I never take associations into account D1. I often have multiple scumread that don't work together). And its perfectly viable to be concerned about someone not removing their vote at L-1 when Blopp hasn't even talked yet.

Actually since I can't vote Blopp right now VOTE: Lucky. I think this is more likely anyway. Your stats case also was reachy and the whole basis of your scumread isn't concrete. I would accept your case if and only if it was supporting evidence of a much stronger and more viable case.

Isn't most Day 1 early cases reachy? I really hate this argument
Also I see you join The Luciano wagon after I printed you to vote and someone else joined before you. I don't like this. I could argue myself that your case on him is reachy but again my case is reachy here no? Finally your case is more repreat what was already aid to give you a reason to join the wagon. While not Al we always scum indicative it's a good start.

Once I catch up my read here I will chiose where my vote goes but you are definitely setting off alarms.

Most cases D1 are reachy but Lucky's case on Blopp is beyond reachy. I mean look at the case I just posted and tell me how that's a good case. And another concern is usually reachy D1 cases are used to create more discussion (mainly from the player being cased) so we can later get better reads and make better cases. But in this case Blopp isn't here to talk and Lucky keeps pushing her. Lucky isn't playing to get more info. Lucky is playing to get a lynch.

I will respond to your readlist post next. I NEED to respond to this first. Is case on Blopp was from what 2 pages worth of posts? Wouldn't that have to be reachy? Do I agree it's a good case? Weird yes but not really screaming confirmed scum for me and thus my vote is not on Blopp. For an elimation to be made 5 players have to agree it's a good enough case to do so. If an elimation were to occur based on that it would be so telling for the rest of the game. Making a case on a player might not get info on the player ryou are pushing but can give Intel on other players in the wagon. Why did they join the wagon? Did they explain themselves well. If it was bad reasoning, what purpose did they have joining that wagon? Miselimnatiin or bad play? So much can be told by these situations.

Overall it has provided discussion to a slow early game and thus has actually been a very beneficial wagon.

I agree with this but it would be much more beneficial to push a player that's active. You would get much more info from that. And also I don't like how Lucky seems to have 0 interest in Blopp being replaced. He just wants Blopp lynched and doesn't appear to care about whether or not Blopp actually is scum or care about getting more info that could help make that decision.

What gives you the impression LL "just wants Blopa lynched"?

[72offsuit]

Why are you asking me for a read on lucky in the middle of your reads list?

I like to ask questions on players I'm unsure of. Sometimes I stick it in my readslist. My readslists are mostly just reference for myself. Could you answer please?

Isn't it Scummy for 72 to ask that?

How so?

Why aks that? Never heard or seen that it is or should be Scummy to ask a question in the middle of a readslist. Like, it's totally something I can see Scum asking to try and look like they are Scum hunting, but not something I can really see Town asking that thinking, "Hmm, seems pretty out of the ordinary you ask a question mid RL. I bet if I ask them why they did that they couldn't come up with an answer if they are Scum." Yeah, not really seeing that coming from Town. Unless 72 has a gob of experience, but even then there are way better things to talk about than something that doesn't really seem Scummy inherently. 72's follow up doesn't really look good either.

72 has seemed evasive. But I'm not sure what to make of that

Unfortunately there's very little you can do if someone is being evasive. If being evasive continues for an extended period that's when you can start saying with some confidence that its scummy.

You seem to be agreeing with Raya here. Is that correct?

[72offsuit]

Lucky and blopp. Maybe Clark but I'm unsure

Where's your vote then?

My vote is "on" Blopp I just don't want him at L-1

Perhaps it is a coincidence, but since being wagoned, Blopp has removed their profile pic. That means they have been onsite and decided not to post. So now we have her ignoring the initial wagon that I started with 72o, despite posting after it began and ignoring my case. In addition, we have her logging on to remove her profile pic and still not posting. Feels a lot like giving up to me.

This is a bad case and very reachy.

Also can you all look back at my two questions (rqs) I asked. I really want to know the answer for the first one.

I'll do this in my next post.

UNVOTE:
I don't want a quick hammer. L-2 is plenty for pressure. Scumlean on Lucky for not removing his vote. Could be hoping for that quickhammer

Is he your only scumlean or do you have more?

Lucky and blopp. Maybe Clark but I'm unsure

"I scumlean Lucky for possibly wanting a quick hammer on my other scumlean."

For the record, I'm expecting Blopp not to post again until the slot is replaced, and if the slot claims VT I will be pushing for the slot to be eliminated.

Just because I scumlean him doesnt mean I'm right (I never take associations into account D1. I often have multiple scumread that don't work together). And its perfectly viable to be concerned about someone not removing their vote at L-1 when Blopp hasn't even talked yet.

Actually since I can't vote Blopp right now VOTE: Lucky. I think this is more likely anyway. Your stats case also was reachy and the whole basis of your scumread isn't concrete. I would accept your case if and only if it was supporting evidence of a much stronger and more viable case.

Isn't most Day 1 early cases reachy? I really hate this argument
Also I see you join The Luciano wagon after I printed you to vote and someone else joined before you. I don't like this. I could argue myself that your case on him is reachy but again my case is reachy here no? Finally your case is more repreat what was already aid to give you a reason to join the wagon. While not Al we always scum indicative it's a good start.

Once I catch up my read here I will chiose where my vote goes but you are definitely setting off alarms.

Most cases D1 are reachy but Lucky's case on Blopp is beyond reachy. I mean look at the case I just posted and tell me how that's a good case. And another concern is usually reachy D1 cases are used to create more discussion (mainly from the player being cased) so we can later get better reads and make better cases. But in this case Blopp isn't here to talk and Lucky keeps pushing her. Lucky isn't playing to get more info. Lucky is playing to get a lynch.

I will respond to your readlist post next. I NEED to respond to this first. Is case on Blopp was from what 2 pages worth of posts? Wouldn't that have to be reachy? Do I agree it's a good case? Weird yes but not really screaming confirmed scum for me and thus my vote is not on Blopp. For an elimation to be made 5 players have to agree it's a good enough case to do so. If an elimation were to occur based on that it would be so telling for the rest of the game. Making a case on a player might not get info on the player ryou are pushing but can give Intel on other players in the wagon. Why did they join the wagon? Did they explain themselves well. If it was bad reasoning, what purpose did they have joining that wagon? Miselimnatiin or bad play? So much can be told by these situations.

Overall it has provided discussion to a slow early game and thus has actually been a very beneficial wagon.

I agree with this but it would be much more beneficial to push a player that's active. You would get much more info from that. And also I don't like how Lucky seems to have 0 interest in Blopp being replaced. He just wants Blopp lynched and doesn't appear to care about whether or not Blopp actually is scum or care about getting more info that could help make that decision.

Raya I'm pretty sure Lucky follows a trail of thought like this: Day 1 is useless, its okay to lose 2 town, as N1 can give us a lot of information to make the loss worth it.
I don't think its pro-town in anyway, but it does seem like he likes that idea.

I'm still convinced he's pushing for a mislynch

What makes you think he is scum pushing for a town mislynch, over town pushing a wagon he thinks is productive?

[72offsuit]

I wonder if this game just has quiet people or if certain posts simply kill it. Of course the answer with just the above bit is obviously the latter.

Yep. Quick pretty much did the same thing in Newbie 2017. No surprises scum won that game.

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=83106

[72offsuit]

EBWOP: Newbie 2007

[72offsuit]

I went back to analyze the Blopp flake and it's so bizarre. I can see newbie players leaving for a bit and returning to see 4 votes on then as a bit overwhelming but I felt the pressure up to the point they removed their avatar was not that high. I've seen (and done so myself) people drilled early game as newbies which would cause enough frustration for a rage quit. This early wagon was rather tame. But at the same time why return at all to remove your avatar? Clearly no intention of returning and thus rage quit possibility over just not returning/forgetting about the site.

So here's the final scenario I have in my head. Blopp comes back because they remember they are in a mafia game, see 4 votes on them, says screw this, removes avatar and leaves forever.

Ye, pretty much this ^

[72offsuit]

The avatar removal just feels like an account deactivation. Seems like she decided forum mafia wasnt her cup of tea.
Question is, what it due to !scumher having to explain her way out of a hole, or just disliking the game overall.

[72offsuit]

And why has no one really said a single word about my case on 72/LL?

Because your case isn't a case and I'm not getting into a 100 post exchange with you.

[72offsuit]

The avatar removal just feels like an account deactivation. Seems like she decided forum mafia wasnt her cup of tea.
Question is, what it due to !scumher having to explain her way out of a hole, or just disliking the game overall.

See this is why I think we should wait for a replacement for her overall, I think we should give the replacement the benefit of doubt for a while after they replace in,

give them a few posts to understand their town, and the intonations and such of that new player will help us work out which one it was.

Can you elaborate on the line as bolded above?:

[72offsuit]

Keep in mind the reason that LL wants Blopp out of the game is the exact reason I wanted Gorge Bailey out of the the game but in that game LL unvotes GB because they don't want to end the day that early.

That's not even close to describing the dynamic of that previous newbie game.

[72offsuit]

I am actually more sure thirteen is Scum than Raya36 at this point. Them being off wagon makes me feel weird about that slot.

Why do you scumread TTJT for being OFF a garbage-wagon?

[72offsuit]

I thought I was voting for raya

VOTE: raya

[72offsuit]

Keep in mind the reason that LL wants Blopp out of the game is the exact reason I wanted Gorge Bailey out of the the game but in that game LL unvotes GB because they don't want to end the day that early.

That's not even close to describing the dynamic of that previous newbie game.

I am actually more sure thirteen is Scum than Raya36 at this point. Them being off wagon makes me feel weird about that slot.

Why do you scumread TTJT for being OFF a garbage-wagon?

So you care why I SR someone else even though you think my case on you isn't actually a case at all? Am I getting this right? Just trying to be thorough.

Obviously. Your towngame being useless aside, I still have to sort your slot.

[72offsuit]

Vote Count 1.07

LuckyLuciano (4):

Homura, JamSV, Raya36

, LicketyQuickety

Blopp (2):

LuckyLuciano, 72offsuit

ClarkBar (1):

Blopp

Homura (1):

ClarkBar

Raya36 (1):

TheThirteenthJT

Not Voting (0):

Deadline is in

(expired on 2020-07-11 13:52:07)

, at which point we will default to no elimination.

With nine players alive, it takes

five

to reach majority.

Mod Note:

Seeking replacement for Blopp. Homura and ClarkBar have been prodded.

I would bet the farm there is AT LEAST one scum within Homura/Jam/Raya

[72offsuit]

Vote Count 1.07

LuckyLuciano (4):

Homura, JamSV, Raya36

, LicketyQuickety

Blopp (2):

LuckyLuciano, 72offsuit

ClarkBar (1):

Blopp

Homura (1):

ClarkBar

Raya36 (1):

TheThirteenthJT

Not Voting (0):

Deadline is in

(expired on 2020-07-11 13:52:07)

, at which point we will default to no elimination.

With nine players alive, it takes

five

to reach majority.

Mod Note:

Seeking replacement for Blopp. Homura and ClarkBar have been prodded.

I would bet the farm there is AT LEAST one scum within Homura/Jam/Raya

Out of Raya and Homura, I think it'd be Raya

So you agree Raya and Homura are scummy, and yet you are happy to be on LL's wagon with them?

[72offsuit]

Battle Mage replaces Blopp.

See this is an issue now, I don't like playing with Battle Mage, I feel like he's too important as asset for town as scum and town, which is just a huge pain.

is that a compliment? <3

I don't want to scare you, but I'm on a rich vein of scumhunting form at the moment!

No pressure, but if you don't eliminate scum today, I'm eliminating you tomorrow

[72offsuit]

I've previous played 2 games with BM

[72offsuit]

Hi BM!

Again I want to say how sorry I am for letting myself almost get replaced. I was whiny in the beginning of the game about the slow place, and so of course it would be me to then contribute to the problem. I work on weekends, and with the holiday and some other life stuff I got completely wrecked. I do virtually nothing during the week, so my posting will be a lot more consistent.

I'll say this regarding much of what I've read in the last few pages: I am not going to go read a past game to see how players behaved in it. I have said (and still believe) that behavior/activity levels being different in one game to another is something I think is noteworthy and could be AI. So I'm not dismissing that as a reasonable motive to vote for somebody. But, unless something very clear is brought to my attention then I don't think I'm going to hop on a wagon because of meta.

I don't have a problem with LL's reasoning for voting Blopp even if it is kind of a reach. I can follow the reasoning and don't necessarily disagree. I do fear quick hammers, but that fear shouldn't stop a player from having some L-1 pressure. I also buy LL's claim for now. I feel uncomfortable giving town-reads, but LL is a town lean for me.

My vote on Homura stands and I guess we'll see if there is a replacement or if Homura returns. Obviously I can't point any fingers regarding activity levels, but it's the lack of trying to engage other players in a meaningful way that bothers me. Half-heartedly sharing opinions and having only one vote that was in the RVS and not even a random reason given bugs me.

I'll keep looking at stuff and see if I can't get some questions goings. I'm also happy to answer any questions, in fact that might help me in figuring out my own feelings on some things.

Given what you've said here, then what are your thoughts on Quick's push on me?

[72offsuit]

Spoiler:

Raya, your positioning WRT Blopp is odd. I was okay with the sheep vote in 39 because you seemed genuinely interested in the case. Somewhere down the line the same case you found worth pushing you have decided is worth scumreading for having been pushed. 45 is odd in retrospect. You say that you won't move your vote from Blopp to Clark because you want to hear from Blopp, but you also concede that we're not going to get info out of Blopp's responses anymore because Clark addressed my case for her (47). If Blopp has had an out provided to her already, what's the point of keeping your vote on her?

Nice attempt at discrediting me. Not gonna work. I was interested in the case but when Blopp went MIA and no replacement was coming in the near future AND he got to L-1 I saw that the scumminess actually came from within the wagon. I did join the wagon to see what came of it just like I said and what came of it was I found out you're scum. As for Blopp having an out, taking my vote off was going to give much less info and I talked to Clark without using my vote and got responses that lead me to believe he is town. I did not abandon what I said about Clark and also did not abandon the wagon on Blopp at the same time. The point of keeping my vote is because the vote wasn't just to get a response to what you said. It was also for the reaction to a wagon.

67 is also really weird. Why is there a scumlean on me for not removing my vote on someone that I scumread and not a scumlean on the player who replaced in, put Blopp at E-1, and invited a quickhammer? It feels like Raya's setting up to push me later for this and doesn't feel at all like a genuine read. In 106 you call a 2-line post that I prefaced with "Perhaps it is a coincidence" in 63, "Bad and reachy." Why did you consider my speculation a case at the time? What sort of content did you expect 63 posts into the game that would push the game forward while not being, to some degree, "bad and reachy"? Further, in 67, you scumleaned me for not unvoting but said nothing about 63. Further, you keep calling my push reachy. What about being reachy is scummy? Do you believe that my goal D1 as town is to find an elimination target that has an >Random chance of being scum? Even if my stance on Blopp is reachy, do you not believe that it represents scum equity in the Blopp slot that is >Random? You yourself have continually scumread Blopp

the entire game

while simultaneously pushing me for scumreading her. Why do

you

scumread her? Your initial vote on the slot was a sheep vote, which you yourself admitted was only cast to "see where this goes." Blopp never responded, therefore it never went anywhere, yet you progressed into constantly calling her slot scummy while illustrating none of that progression publicly. And despite you insisting that I'm pushing a mislynch, you hold that you think her slot is scummy.

The difference is Jam was open and clearly stated it was L-1 and their intents etc. You came back and were quiet about it. I really don't see scum coming in, putting someone at L-1 and then inviting the mislynch. Maybe case wasn't the best word choice but I do consider anything with multiple reasons to scumread someone a case. You're nitpicking on wording. There's early game bad and reachy and then there's just bad and reachy and yours was bad. I don't see a town thought process, I see scum trying to make something up out of nothing. I don't see the problem with not saying anything about 63 then.. Reachy is scummy because scum are trying to make scumreads when they are informed and know they're scumreading town. That means they need to make up reasons for why that person is scum which can lead to reachiness. Yes I believe that's your goal as town. I no longer scumread Blopp. Thought I made that clear, sorry. Reactions from Blopp didn't go anywhere no, but the wagon is telling as well.

Why did you ask 72o if his thoughts of Blopp had changed at all in 148 when Blopp has been MIA since his initial vote? Why would his thoughts have changed, and why did you have a special interest in hearing his thoughts on the Blopp slot rather than others, like the slot you have been pushing: me? Your stance on Blopp honestly feels like you tried to distance early and are not awkwardly trying to defend her (anyone else hear the distant revving of a chainsaw) while maintaining your early, unexplained scumread on her to appear consistent. In 181 you have decided that the

only

reason Blopp is scummy is lack of content. This seems to be a deterioration in your read on her since your earlier scumlean on her 67. What reason did you have to scumlean Blopp in 67, and why did it disappear by 181. She hadn't been gone for long enough for lack of content to be a reason to scumlean her, and it was early enough in the game that other slots had just as little or less content. So please, educate me on your thought process here.

I forgot Blopp hadn't posted since then. His post was early game and I never referred back to see when Blopp's last post was. How is that even scummy...

But I'm not maintaining my scumread on her. I seriously think she's a mislynch and I said that you're pushing a mislynch several times which clearly means I'm townreading her. Keep in mind when reading my 181 that it was written during a reread. And in my reread I decided that you're likely scum and Blopp is town.

Let's move on to 182. You say that my case is scummy because I'm pushing a spot that isn't around to respond, but my case is premised on

why

that slot isn't around to respond. Do you believe it is possible that I believe in my reads? If so, why is my push scummy? Do you stop pushing a scumread because they leave the game or choose not to respond? Later on your argument against me more clearly becomes that you believe I'm pushing a miskick (218). How do you differentiate town pushing town from scum pushing town? What about my push on Blopp indicates that it is a push I would make as scum but wouldn't make as town? If you are still holding Blopp as scummy, how can my push so obviously be a miskick? I can only clearly be pushing a miskick if I'm pushing an obvtown slot, no? Please explain to me how you know I'm pushing a miskick on a slot you scumread.

Your push is scummy because you seem to want it lynched regardless of whether there is or is not a replacement. And your whole case is on the premise that they're not here but you're not considering the MANY other possible reasons for that and you're ignoring me when I ask you about them. I've already explained many times why your push seems like scum pushing town and not town pushing town. (bad case, reachy, not caring about the replacement, stated you'd want to lynch if the replacement claims VT, not considering other possibilities for being MIA, pushing someone who currently doesn't have a voice, etc)

On to 228. The first thing you do is appeal to authority with Homura. That's laughable because I have more experience than Homura, so if you are using experience as a reason to accept or deny my push, you should be taking my side. Moreover, it's not that I haven't considered other possibilities for Blopp flaking. It's that among all possible explanations, I believe that the explanations leading to scum!Blopp hold more equity than those leading to town!Blopp. I think the deletion of her avatar answers back

many, if not all

of the NAI explanations for her flaking, and when left with only scumAI and townAI explanations for a newbie dipping after getting immediate pressure from multiple players in response to a post they made, my experience leads me to believe that there are far more prevalent scumAI explanations than townAI. Further, you say in the same post that you don't find Blopp's behavior particularly AI. Again, explain to me your earlier scumread on Blopp if her behavior suddenly isn't AI.

You don't have experience in Newbie games on this site though. Your experience can not be compared in this context. Explain to me why Blopp couldn't have just came in, deleted her avatar with intent to get a new one, then just never did and siteflaked. Tell me why Blopp couldn't have just decided they want nothing to do with this site regardless of alignment and deleted their avatar and siteflaked. This is why I don't find it AI. You're telling me this player should be lynched regardless of what the replacement says (if they claim VT) when all you have is a flimsy case with several counter-arguments.

A particular line I feel warrants a response,

So basically what you're saying in that second line is unless Blopp slot is a power role you won't consider anything the replacement has to say and won't reconsider your read.

Yeah. That's pretty much what I'm saying. The goal D1 is always to find a slot that has a >Rand chance of being scum and voting there. The goal D1 is not to solve the game. If a slot with high scum equity claims VT, you eliminate them. You don't go searching through slots with lesser scum equity and get more claims, either outing a TPR or further limiting the pool of TPR for scum to choose from for their NK. It's called best practical play.

I do agree that once a player claims VT it's probably for the best to lynch them unless they suddenly become very obvtown, however your wording is making me think that even before the replacement claims anything you won't care about what they have to say. They'll only claim once they get to L-1 with intent, so what if that never happens?

I'm not 100% convinced Blopp is town. I just don't trust your case on her and I don't believe it to be a good case with good intentions. The more I believe you're pushing for a mislynch the more I believe Blopp is town though. And yes Blopp flipping town does give info but why should I push for a flip on Blopp when I'm sure you're scum pushing for a mislynch on Blopp.

Either you think I'm scum pushing for a miskick or you don't. If you are so convinced that I'm scum pushing for a miskick, why would you say that you are not 100% convinced Blopp is town. Even if it is a true statement, what compelled you to throw it out there. It feels a lot like building a safety net for Blopp being kicked, either today, or tomorrow if I were to be kicked today. At some point that slot

will

flip, and when it does you need to have already saved face, and this is part of you trying to do that.

Because I don't 100% know you're scum. I just really really think you are. If you're not then I wouldn't be 100% convinced Blopp is town. My basis for Blopp being town is you being scum and I don't do D1 associations during D1.

Also, anyone who doesn't read this as scum is a joke of a player,

If you're so happy with flipping town and you're actually town why not let us flip you. We'll get more info from that than Blopp's flip.

Just saying that it's inconsistent to be willing to flip town for info but be unwilling to flip yourself when that would give us even more info.

See bolded part ^
The "I forgot" line. It's scummy because this sort of play doesn't come from a town mindset. From what I gather Raya's scumread on LL appears to primarily revolve around his vote on Blopa. Town in general is more balanced and open to re-evaluate their reads as town does NOT know alignments. I think !TownRaya here, would focus more on Blopa's posting (or lack of), to follow-up on the veracity of their reads.

Thus, I think the "forgetting" that Blopa hasn;t posted since, as Raya has said here in 354
AND
Raya's questioning myself on the progress of my read on Blopa in [post]148[/post] , speaks volumes.


Need more votes on the Raya elimination locomotion.
Choo choo choo
Hop on board the Raya express, no ticket required to ride this train!

[72offsuit]

Hi BM!

Again I want to say how sorry I am for letting myself almost get replaced. I was whiny in the beginning of the game about the slow place, and so of course it would be me to then contribute to the problem. I work on weekends, and with the holiday and some other life stuff I got completely wrecked. I do virtually nothing during the week, so my posting will be a lot more consistent.

I'll say this regarding much of what I've read in the last few pages: I am not going to go read a past game to see how players behaved in it. I have said (and still believe) that behavior/activity levels being different in one game to another is something I think is noteworthy and could be AI. So I'm not dismissing that as a reasonable motive to vote for somebody. But, unless something very clear is brought to my attention then I don't think I'm going to hop on a wagon because of meta.

I don't have a problem with LL's reasoning for voting Blopp even if it is kind of a reach. I can follow the reasoning and don't necessarily disagree. I do fear quick hammers, but that fear shouldn't stop a player from having some L-1 pressure. I also buy LL's claim for now. I feel uncomfortable giving town-reads, but LL is a town lean for me.

My vote on Homura stands and I guess we'll see if there is a replacement or if Homura returns. Obviously I can't point any fingers regarding activity levels, but it's the lack of trying to engage other players in a meaningful way that bothers me. Half-heartedly sharing opinions and having only one vote that was in the RVS and not even a random reason given bugs me.

I'll keep looking at stuff and see if I can't get some questions goings. I'm also happy to answer any questions, in fact that might help me in figuring out my own feelings on some things.

So you believe LLs claim but he is only a town lean?

And I agree on your Homura point but it's not strong enough for it to be my leading case. Could you ISo Raya and let me know how you feel about them.

This is a for fun question and part of my experimental ways of playing.(I know we are out of rqs and wifom and not aftual scumhunting blah blah blah. Just let me be me.) If you were town who is your scum team at this point, and if you were mafia who would your partner be? Please answer both sides and just have fun with the answers. I don't have any day to back anything up but I have theories so this will help me improve as a player. Anyone else is free to answer this as well.

If I was scum, my partner would be TTJT, Clark or Quick.

[72offsuit]

By the way, does anybody think with good odds LL is a mason? If not then we can narrow down the game a bunch.

I gave my mason solve for LL already. If not with 72 I think it's a fools errand to try and speculate more than that.

He has already said he is not a mason with myself, so why are you bringing this up again?

[72offsuit]

If I'm not mistaking, that's 4 votes. I have a TPR. Let's move on.

Not sure if this was discussed yet but if you have a tpr you need to claim the exact role. That's why we have a matrix setup. So we can confirm/deny it was a cc

No....

Noone has claimed intent to hammer. Why would we get an exact role claim?

[72offsuit]

I went back to analyze the Blopp flake and it's so bizarre. I can see newbie players leaving for a bit and returning to see 4 votes on then as a bit overwhelming but I felt the pressure up to the point they removed their avatar was not that high. I've seen (and done so myself) people drilled early game as newbies which would cause enough frustration for a rage quit. This early wagon was rather tame. But at the same time why return at all to remove your avatar? Clearly no intention of returning and thus rage quit possibility over just not returning/forgetting about the site.

So here's the final scenario I have in my head. Blopp comes back because they remember they are in a mafia game, see 4 votes on them, says screw this, removes avatar and leaves forever.

Ok but this same reaction can come from town too.. It's not scum indicative.. It's NAI

And thus why I didn't join the Blopp wagon. I was giving the benefit of the doubt but at the same time understanding why someone would push it. I felt I had bigger fish to fry over the Blopp and Luciano case and had said I wouldn't really weigh in and focus elsewhere until a replacement came in.

Similarly now that BM has replaced in I want to see were Luciano goes from there.

This is good and town thinking. Scum would likely choose a side I think even just lightly.

Another scummy post from Raya.

Why is BM's post "good and town thinking"?

Scum 101 tactic is to hedge bets, fence-sit and to simply wait and see where the chips fall, to see what vote is most advatageous for scumagenda, before making their play with more information available. Just like sitting on the button in poker - Last player to act has more information to make their move.

[72offsuit]

If I'm not mistaking, that's 4 votes. I have a TPR. Let's move on.

Not sure if this was discussed yet but if you have a tpr you need to claim the exact role. That's why we have a matrix setup. So we can confirm/deny it was a cc

No....

Noone has claimed intent to hammer. Why would we get an exact role claim?

Because Lucky already claimed a PR

So what's your point?

[72offsuit]

If I'm not mistaking, that's 4 votes. I have a TPR. Let's move on.

Not sure if this was discussed yet but if you have a tpr you need to claim the exact role. That's why we have a matrix setup. So we can confirm/deny it was a cc

No....

Noone has claimed intent to hammer. Why would we get an exact role claim?

Because Lucky already claimed a PR

So what's your point?

[72offsuit]

I actually read that game because I was technically in it on the wining team in Newbie 2010

In that scenario, I agree, that the player in that spot has to claim an exact role.

The CRITICAL DIFFERENCE between the scenario here and in that game, was that Umlaut was at E-1, with INTENT TO HAMMER EXPRESSED.

[72offsuit]

I went back to analyze the Blopp flake and it's so bizarre. I can see newbie players leaving for a bit and returning to see 4 votes on then as a bit overwhelming but I felt the pressure up to the point they removed their avatar was not that high. I've seen (and done so myself) people drilled early game as newbies which would cause enough frustration for a rage quit. This early wagon was rather tame. But at the same time why return at all to remove your avatar? Clearly no intention of returning and thus rage quit possibility over just not returning/forgetting about the site.

So here's the final scenario I have in my head. Blopp comes back because they remember they are in a mafia game, see 4 votes on them, says screw this, removes avatar and leaves forever.

Ok but this same reaction can come from town too.. It's not scum indicative.. It's NAI

And thus why I didn't join the Blopp wagon. I was giving the benefit of the doubt but at the same time understanding why someone would push it. I felt I had bigger fish to fry over the Blopp and Luciano case and had said I wouldn't really weigh in and focus elsewhere until a replacement came in.

Similarly now that BM has replaced in I want to see were Luciano goes from there.

This is good and town thinking. Scum would likely choose a side I think even just lightly.

Another scummy post from Raya.

Why is BM's post "good and town thinking"?

Scum 101 tactic is to hedge bets, fence-sit and to simply wait and see where the chips fall, to see what vote is most advatageous for scumagenda, before making their play with more information available. Just like sitting on the button in poker - Last player to act has more information to make their move.

I think you either confused the player this was directed at or I confused my read of it.

That's my confusion.

[72offsuit]

Idk y i thought BM posted that. The point still stands, I don;t see why that is town "good thinking"

[72offsuit]

I don't see how PR speculation helps town at all.
Its just a matter of do you believe !TownPR-LL claims in that spot or not within the current gamestate. Nothing about the claim seemed fake to me.

[72offsuit]

Another scummy post from Raya.

Why is BM's post "good and town thinking"?

Good question, and I'll admit I'm confused about the confusion...

Scum 101 tactic is to hedge bets, fence-sit and to simply wait and see where the chips fall, to see what vote is most advatageous for scumagenda, before making their play with more information available. Just like sitting on the button in poker - Last player to act has more information to make their move.

I can dig the "scum 101" thing. How do you square that with how Raya has been playing? She has been virtually solely focused on LL, and has given generous town-reads. That doesn't sound to me like a player who is fence-sitting or simply waiting for things to fall into place.

No. I never said Raya was fence sitting.

I am saying TTJT's stance on Blopp (as stated by TTJT himself in post 369 if anything, was fence-sitting and I dont see it as a reason to townread TTJT, as raya does.

What I'm saying is I disagree with Raya's post 397 where he TRs TTJT.

[72offsuit]

I actually read that game because I was technically in it on the wining team in Newbie 2010

In that scenario, I agree, that the player in that spot has to claim an exact role.

The CRITICAL DIFFERENCE between the scenario here and in that game, was that Umlaut was at E-1, with INTENT TO HAMMER EXPRESSED.

I agree that there's a difference but Lucky has already claimed so we can't just let them slide by because they claimed a PR when it can't be verified.

I'm not saying 'let it slide'. If you are town and genuinely scumread, then find something more convincing. Right now I'm not seeing it and the claim feels legit.

[72offsuit]

Scumread LL*

[72offsuit]

It feels to me like his wagon got run up, he doesnt want town wasting town focussing on him, and doesnt care all that much about this game, so isnt that fussed about being night-killed.

[72offsuit]

I think my whole case and how reactionary Lucky acted in response is enough on its own

I don't believe the claim at all. Scum ALWAYS claims a PR in this situation. So why are we just blindly trusting Lucky's PR claim when we don't even know the specific role and can just get by without a counterclaim

Who is the "we" that you refer to in this post?

[72offsuit]

UNVOTE:
reading

Welcome.

I've previously played 2 games with Looker.

[72offsuit]

because he has an obsession with me

No, I don't. My problem is with people who play like you who don't really care about their Town game so they do dumb shit like this so they can pull the same sort of thing as Scum. That's something I despise. It has nothing to do with you personally. It has to do with the fact you would rather play in a way that is more manipulative than straightforward. I don't really care if that is a playstyle or not, it generally makes you a bad person. There are MANY different ways to play this game while still being straightforward and not doing dumb ass shit to up your Scum game.

In the nicest way possible, he just apologised at the end of that last post, you should at the very least have the courtesy not to slag him off now he's getting a replacement.

Some players are simply abrasive, verging on toxic. That's just the world we live in.

[72offsuit]

Hmm what to do with this slot. I don't want to wait for replacement of we aren't going to give them a fair chance. Personally for me I'd say to almost disregard LL plays for whomever replaces in but I know that's not really possible. I want everyone in this wagon to give their opinions on what just happened.

I'll give you my opinion, regardless of the apology at the end of 451 I find the last few posts by LL to be unacceptable. There's a dignified way of doing what LL did, but LL chose to be nasty and childish.

That said, I don't know that I find it all that AI. The fake TPR claim is strange, and potentially disastrous if LL is town and our setup has two masons, but falls in line with the defeatist and trashy behavior LL has demonstrated. His stated reason for doing it is something I find believable given his attitude. Obviously I'd like to hear what his replacement has to say but I don't know that I consider LL's wagon any weaker or stronger than before his embarrassing display.

I have seen LL be a bit snarky and abrasive before, that time he was scum. Newbie 2001.
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=82865

In that game:
LL's post 507, his 576, his 580, his 582.

I don;t think his abrasiveness there really compares to it in this game.
There he swears more, and is more AtE-ish (Appealing to Emotion)

Having played with Quick before, I can understand LL's frustration towards Quick.

Regardless, I'm fairly confident that LL is town and Raya is scum.

[72offsuit]

I’m on mobile right now, so I can’t respond to some stuff. Raya/LL scumteam fascinates me though. They would have done quite a terrific distancing job were that the case...

Also, loving this sweet sweet BM posting. Will continue tomorrow? You just got started! What a tease.

I laughed harder at this than your description of yourself as "a bit lush"

I think an LL scum-flip should give an easy solve, although I haven't worked that through yet - will do that once I've experienced the whole game. Plenty of time left yet!

Why is the "easy" route out the best one?

[72offsuit]

Ever heard of too-good-to-be-true?

[72offsuit]

Looker
LicketyQuickety
JamS

Only 2 town-reads when from !town BM's PoV there are 7 other town?
Yeah nah. Scummy reads list.

[72offsuit]

6*

[72offsuit]

It feels to me like his wagon got run up, he doesnt want town wasting town focussing on him, and doesnt care all that much about this game, so isnt that fussed about being night-killed.

I don't know where you're getting the don't care about the game vibe because those wall posts about me seemed like caring

Why are you disputing what I said when it's obvious my read on him was correct. He is replacing out is he not?
So unless you think I am EXACTLY scum-teamed-with-LL, why question my read?

[72offsuit]

Keep on digging your own grave Raya. *Dig Dig*

[72offsuit]

I think my whole case and how reactionary Lucky acted in response is enough on its own

I don't believe the claim at all. Scum ALWAYS claims a PR in this situation. So why are we just blindly trusting Lucky's PR claim when we don't even know the specific role and can just get by without a counterclaim

Who is the "we" that you refer to in this post?

We as in town in general

I'd like you to be more specific. WHICH particular players in particular werer you referring to?

[72offsuit]

Ever heard of too-good-to-be-true?

Sometimes a good thing is just a good thing.

Why are you answering what I'm directing at BM?

[72offsuit]

72, does BM’s posting make you reconsider the Blopp wagon as garbage?

In what way? BM is scummy.

[72offsuit]

What prompted you to ask this question?

[72offsuit]

Raya's 428 is the scummiest post in this game. Please everyone take the time to follow this exchange.

[72offsuit]

Ever heard of too-good-to-be-true?

Sometimes a good thing is just a good thing.

Why are you answering what I'm directing at BM?

Because I have an opinion.

That's fine. It'd nice if you held of until BM answered though.

[72offsuit]

EBWOP: off*

[72offsuit]

Not only does he include himself in the "we" of town, which is independently scummy, but more importantly,

also does not specifically refer to the specific players that stated believed LL's claim was genuine.

[72offsuit]

Apologies raya, I've been saying "he". My bad.

[72offsuit]

72, did you read my summation of my feelings about you? Why were you on a wagon for a player and then later say the wagon was garbage? I need more from you regarding your read on Raya. Why do you consistently apologize for LL? Seems to me you find LL to be totally town, so how can you simultaneously dislike the Blopp wagon and yet find BM scummy and the LL slot town?

What prompted you to ask this question?

Because you've stated your disdain for the Blopp wagon despite being briefly on it and dismissing criticisms of its primary architect. BM is in that slot now, and BM is scummy to you. What impact does this have for you in terms of the Blopp wagon?


428 is the scummiest post of the game? Do tell! I'm a big dummy and can miss the obvious.

When did i state my disdain of the Blopp wagon?

[72offsuit]

72, did you read my summation of my feelings about you? Why were you on a wagon for a player and then later say the wagon was garbage? I need more from you regarding your read on Raya. Why do you consistently apologize for LL? Seems to me you find LL to be totally town, so how can you simultaneously dislike the Blopp wagon and yet find BM scummy and the LL slot town?

What prompted you to ask this question?

Because you've stated your disdain for the Blopp wagon despite being briefly on it and dismissing criticisms of its primary architect. BM is in that slot now, and BM is scummy to you. What impact does this have for you in terms of the Blopp wagon?


428 is the scummiest post of the game? Do tell! I'm a big dummy and can miss the obvious.

No i didn;t recall any particular summation or any outstanding questions. Please post the post number. It's hard enough following the thread without links or a number. If its something you really want answered or responded to, the easier you make it, the more likely someone will do it.

It's the scummiest post, because not many people have actually come out and said they believed LL's claim was real, despite raya saying
"So why are we just blindly trusting Lucky's PR claim"

Why didn;t raya just direct that towards me?
It gives me the impresssion raya knows I;m town and has extrapolated my view onto "town" in general.






The fact raya disappeared, after I challenged her, is pretty telling in its own right.

[72offsuit]

Because I thought the LL wagon was garbage and he tends to have decent reads.

[72offsuit]

And the fact my #1 scumread is pushing said wagon

[72offsuit]

Spoiler:

I've been reticent in giving reads because I fear that giving even mild town-reads will influence my own perspective whether I'm conscious of it or not. However I have observed more experienced players do so regularly, so maybe my thinking on that is wrong. Also, this exercise may prove valuable for me. There might be some repetitive stuff here, and sorry for the wall of text. Let me start with where my vote is...

Homura/Looker:

Not a huge fan of not giving a reason, even a random one, for the vote on LL. I don't have an issue with not liking LL's Blopp ART, but there is a bit of a misrepresentation by Homura that LL's push on Blopp comes only from that angle. In my last game I disregarded a player that just posted opinions and was reactive instead of proactive and I got burned by doing so. I saw similar behavior from Homura and wanted to engage with her more. As it turns out she may just not have had any interest in the game whatsoever. There is replacement and I'm eager to hear their thoughts. At the moment there is no good reason for my vote to be where it is.

UNVOTE: Homura/Looker

And in no particular order...

Blopp/Battle Mage:

LL seems to feel that first-time scum will give a greeting in their first post, but I don't know the merit of that argument. Ultimately there are three posts that are pretty much fluff. I think 23 was just an attempt to get conversation going. 29 isn't that exciting to me either, but I may be missing something big about RQS. So now we get to the ART issue. I don't think it's as reachy as some others do, but it also wasn't near enough for me to join the wagon. Now we have Battle Mage in the slot. BM was in my first game and I liked playing with him. So far this game he hasn't contributed much, and I'm a little confused by his last few posts. I have no read on him yet. The slot itself I do look at with some suspicion.

TheThirteenthJT:

Wants an early wagon on me, which is fine. I don't know how anyone would read 52 seriously, but nothing wrong with kicking the tires. Seems to share my opinion on LL's push on Blopp. This is where issues with Raya pop up. 13JT feels that Raya moving her vote onto LL is a result of pressure by him and the reasons are forced. 13JT brings up how it is interesting that Jam put Blopp at E-1 and isn't getting called out for it. I shared this same concern in my ISO of Raya. 13JT continues to criticize Raya's criticism of LL's criticism of Blopp. Again, it appears 13JT and I are on the same page regarding the quality of the case on Blopp. And it's true, that has been the wagon that has generated the most discussion. The thought of a Raya/Homura scum team is welcomed by 13JT and he moves his vote over to Raya. Says I failed a test (for the love of God I can't wait to find out how). 13JT then comes back to the ART and puts more stock into it. This is a little odd to come back to something already discussed and have such a stronger opinion about it, but I can see that happening with rereads. It's likely to happen to me. What is strange is to then say that the Blopp wagon has scum outside of Jam. Not sure I follow this, and I don't follow the distancing accusation made towards Quick and Raya. Kinda agree on policy-lynching players like LL. I think I have a slight-town read on 13JT.

LicketyQuickety:

Seems to come in with some baggage from a previous game. I don't discount meta, but like I've said I'm not going to go read old games unless the circumstances dictate a need to. I don't follow the suspicion on 72 for asking why he was asked for reads. That's a big yawn for me. Goes on to post some "music". Gets into it a little bit with LL, again I'm not going to worry about LL's meta. Especially if Quick is correct and he's actively manipulating his play. I'm sorry, but I'm just not that interested in pursuing a case(s) that are rooted in Newbie 2007. I do agree that claiming a PR does not clear you of suspicion, and if I had the certainty about a player that Quick has about LL I would be totally unimpressed by the claim. And, as it turns out LL was lying. I don't understand the unvote in 291. I don't get the 13JT vote. I thought the avatar for BM was a sweet thing to do, but obviously not AI. I do believe the lack of a grudge/agenda against LL despite how hard she came down on him upon entering the game. Null/town.

JamSV

There is some baggage here. I single-handedly lost my first game for town by hammering Jam. I'm a little more cautious with how I look at him now. He likes to put players at E-1, and doesn't always follow that vote up with any kind of questioning or anything. So the E-1 vote on Blopp was no surprise to me at all. I don't understand his position on quick hammers being unlikely or not being AI considering what went down our last game together. The spat between Jam and LL is interesting, even if I find the statistics stuff goofy. I love 116, and I agree with Jam. Jam predicts a 72/LL scum team, a prediction that I suppose Quick would appreciate. Now that I'm starting to get to know Jam a little better I like it when he gets aggravated. I don't disagree with Jam's take on the ART, I just find it more potentially scummy than he does. I'm not going to take Jam thinking BM was the best player in our last game personally. I'm not. I'm really not. I don't like the speculation on PR's, but I don't find it scummy either. I'm not experienced enough to know the best way to approach a claim like LL made. I think I have to put Jam in my town-bloc for now.

Raya36:

Well I just did an ISO on her, so this will be brief. I totally appreciate 13JT's suspicion. As I've said, the whole thing with LL not unvoting is thin and weird, especially given Jam's E-1 vote going unmentioned. LL seems to think my change of opinion happens "magically", but it's a result of Raya's response to the things that really bothered me. I might be easily swayed, but I believed her reasoning. I do think I gave her too much of a town-read, she's more null for me.

LuckyLuciano:

I don't have an issue with the initial reasons for the vote on Blopp, even if they didn't inspire me much. I don't have an issue with the ART, and I don't have an issue with not unvoting Bopp when put at E-1. I like that despite pressure to let go of the Blopp vote, LL sticks to his guns. I like 239. I don't really care about Newbie 2007. I don't feel that LL is being obtuse about Quick's case on him. That fucking claim though. At this point in the game I didn't have a scum-read on LL so I chose to believe the claim. It did bother me a little that the claim was made when there was no stated intent to hammer, but I just came off a game where quickhammers closed out 2 of the 3 days so I can see why town would do that. But this claim is apparently a lie, and this is where LL's tone really changes. Lying about being a PR while town seems really reckless to me and I don't see the value. So here is where I have to make a choice about how I view this slot. Is it that 1. LL is scum who was trying to push an early misexecute but was too stubborn to back off from pressure, got pouty about the wagon on him, made a false claim to shake off the attention, and then essentially rage quit (which is a bit hypocritical) while throwing shade at the people in the game who were pressuring him OR is that that 2. LL is town who strongly felt that the case on Blopp was solid gold, got frustrated by people disagreeing with his case/logic, is easily butthurt by Quick and Jam, and made the claim to refocus attention elsewhere, and then rage-quit because things weren't going his way? I think I'm going to land on the first option being a little more likely, and that largely is due to the claim. I don't see a town benefit to it as strongly as I see a scum benefit. Furthermore, scum!LL taking back the claim prevents any need to claim a specific role and cleans the slate for his replacement. I will reserve my vote until a replacement comes in, but I don't know how they can really answer for LL. I think I'd be comfortable hammering this slot.

72offsuit:

Agrees with LL on the early Blopp case. If he is a scum buddy with LL then this seems a somewhat bold move. Introduces the RQS as a "great scum hunting tool" but declines to answer the questions. The might be a joke though considering 72 then does answer the questions a little later. Very aloof. People accuse 72 of being evasive, I find him to be more blasé in tone than evasive. Interestingly 72 seems to come around to the idea that the Blopp ART isn't very strong. So why is the vote still there? I don't care about Newbie 2007. Ok, so 72 feels that the Blopp wagon is garbage, and thought his vote was on Raya. I don't like this, maybe I'm not following along well enough. 72 seems to be defending LL's push on Blopp, was a part of that push, then declared it a garbage wagon and moved his vote to a player who was pressuring LL. He gives LL the benefit of the doubt repeatedly, but granted he has somewhat of a history with LL. I don't have enough experience to have a strong stance on when it's appropriate to claim a specific power-role. But, if the LL slot is scum then it does seem to me that scum would rather not have any specific claims made in case they get called out. So, is 72's motive to not have LL claim born out of a desire to not have town speculate on the setup, or as an act of preservation for their scum-partner? That's a tough call for me to make right now. A flip on the LL slot seems to me to be of the greatest value right now.

Sorry if that was sloppily done. If there are any questions, comments, or concerns please share them. I might have missed obvious stuff.

Positive: Regardless if town or scum appreciate the effort in this post. Keeps the game moving.
Negative: Pretty much disagree with half the reads here.

1. You say you are confused about BM's posts, but I don;t see you actually clarifying them or any follow-up on your behalf.

2. TTJT and I have similar reads but somehow I am scummy and he is town. The read on TTJT and myself doesn;t really match up.

3. Read on Quick seems reasonable, like it could be from a town-mindset.

4. "I think I have to put Jam in my town-bloc for now". Pretty much zero discussion about Jam's actual ALIGNMENT, just goes on about why you like Jam, so I still have no idea how you conclude to put him as a town read.

5. The ISO on raya just feels really underwhelming, once again I'm not really getting the vibe of alignment sorting, it just feels like Information Instead of Analysis. Furthermore I don;t understand why Raya was chosen as the only player to be ISO'ed.

6. In my experience recklessness tends to come from town, not scum. Town speak their mind, their goal is simply to poke and prod and try to find scum.
Scum generally are more calculating - they care more about how they are perceived as scum doesn;t want to attract attention to themselves.

7. I think you can ask everyone here, if they think setup speculation is pro-town or pro-scum.
Once again, I don;t see why you are questioning my vote on Blopp as compared to TTJT.

8. Overall don;t see much here regarding motivation/intent of players. It mostly just feels like a recap of whats occurred in the game.

[72offsuit]

Spoiler:

Vote Count 1.08

LuckyLuciano (3):

Looker, JamSV, Raya36

Looker (2):

ClarkBar, 72offsuit

Battle Mage (1):

LuckyLuciano

Raya36 (1):

TheThirteenthJT, 72offsuit

TheThirteenthJT (1):

LicketyQuickety

Not Voting (0):

Battle Mage

Deadline is in

(expired on 2020-07-11 13:52:07)

, at which point we will default to no elimination.

With nine players alive, it takes

five

to reach majority.

Mod Note:

Nothing!

Still reading, but why is 72offsuit voting twice?

I'm the town mayor, so I get 2 votes.
I never voted for Homura, who knows, mod wanted to spice the game up?

[72offsuit]

7 is a slight ping. It's a commonly known tell that true newbies are statistically more likely to start their first post in forum games with a greeting when they roll mafia.

Hmm, ok. So why didn't you vote for me? Or more Homura, who arguably ducked out even harder...

23 is a slightly larger ping. It's LAMIST (Look at me, I'm so town). She's 'trying to move from RVS' by asking Clark what moved their game from RVS without moving the game forward herself. More specifically, she's offering content that at first glance appears to look town but upon closer inspection is not in any way AI because it doesn't offer any real thoughts. That's typically scum.

Yeah, I get what you're saying, but that appears to be way more of a way of moving the conversation than intentional fluff posting. She even threw a wink at the end referencing my post about breaking the ice.

Finally, I don't like how she disappeared after getting 2 votes on her in quick succession. She posted after them, and with the preview feature she has to have seen them. Seems panicky to just dip out like that.

Maybe she didn't take it seriously. I do want to see her respond to your points for herself, I just find your reasons pretty thin.

Townpoints for Clark - no reason to defend the newbie here as scum.

@Clark, you have a completed game. Homura has many completed games.

I'm singling out the easiest target with a 'case' which flatters to deceive.

If you want to move the game from RVS, why are you defending Blopp instead of seeing what comes of this?

Just piss off and let me bully the newbie

Also, do not go out of your way to explain the reasoning of others. You are not a God who can read minds, none of us are. Let them explain themselves.

Let them try and explain their way out of my largely bogus case on Page 2, or I'll pick on you instead?

No comment here on Clark towntell

What follows is a gross sequence of posts from Raya (viewer discretion advised):

I want to see what comes of this so I'll sheep you

VOTE: Blopp

Sheeping here is a bit yuck, especially having seen how weak case is, and Raya surely better player than that?

[...]I just find your reasons pretty thin.

Why are you responding to this instead of letting Blopp respond... how are we supposed to

get info

put of Blopp if you respond for them? Do you town read Blopp? Or scumread Lucky?

what info? since when did it become anti-town to give your opinions on things as they arise? Aggression here towards Clark is odd, given Raya hasn't actually endorsed the case itself and appeared initially to be wagonning for the sake of wagonning. As above, Blopp was set up to fail here, and the pressure to silence dissenters from the easy mislynch is NAGL.

The only reason I'm not moving my vote to Clark is because I want to hear from Blopp

What did you want to hear from him?

But by giving a response you're making it easier for scum!Blopp to

get out of a tough situation

by just saying what you said is correct and maybe expanding on it. We get no info anymore unless Blopp decides to say something extremely different from what you said.

A general guideline that's good to follow is to never respond for someone else. It only ruins the potential to gain new info from that player. Especially if what you're responding to is a case, like what you responded to

The mis-coaching from Raya here gives me the creeps. "get out of a tough situation" is a telling choice of words - Raya clearly appreciates the 'case' isn't one which a newbie could easily refute despite the fact it isn't grounded in good logic. The inference here is that Raya is expecting (maybe hoping?) Blopp won't respond in a way which "gets them out of a tough situation" and is disappointed that she was given a proverbial lifeline.

Moreover, I don't like to see SE players giving bad advice to newbies, regardless of alignment.

No reason to townread/defend a newbie as scum?
This is so wrong its not funny. Pocketing newbies is scum 101. Literally the first page of the manual. Newbies in general are much more impressionable and tend to be easier to pocket.

[72offsuit]

Hey hey hey!

Good evening moons, I’m porkens. I like to lolhammer, memegambit, and fall scumteams day 1. My perfect date includes lying on the floor, playing Super Nintendo, and eating chips.

Fun fact: I skimmed this slot and was BLOWN AWAY to get a town PM.

Ill read if I have to but I’ll give a cookie to anyone who catches me up on the game state!!

1. Newbie Blopp deletes avatar and then disappears
2. Blopp gets wagoned
3. LL gets wagoned.
4. LL claims PR
5. LL retracts PR claim
6. Neither LL nor I are fans of Quick
7. Raya is scum

I;d like white chocolate chip thanks.

[72offsuit]

Spoiler:

Positive: Regardless if town or scum appreciate the effort in this post. Keeps the game moving.
Negative: Pretty much disagree with half the reads here.

Fair!

1. You say you are confused about BM's posts, but I don;t see you actually clarifying them or any follow-up on your behalf.

It's that there were a few of them that seemed to be weird non-sequiters, but there were no votes or reads in them so I just shrugged. His posting since has been normal.

2. TTJT and I have similar reads but somehow I am scummy and he is town. The read on TTJT and myself doesn;t really match up.

They sure don't! Similar reads in what way?

3. Read on Quick seems reasonable, like it could be from a town-mindset.

Perceptive!

4. "I think I have to put Jam in my town-bloc for now". Pretty much zero discussion about Jam's actual ALIGNMENT, just goes on about why you like Jam, so I still have no idea how you conclude to put him as a town read.

Because I think he's town. Talk to me about why you don't think he is!

5. The ISO on raya just feels really underwhelming, once again I'm not really getting the vibe of alignment sorting, it just feels like Information Instead of Analysis. Furthermore I don;t understand why Raya was chosen as the only player to be ISO'ed.

Because I was asked to! And I'm sorry if it was underwhelming, but I

did

put a disclaimer at the top about that likelihood. Caveat emptor!

6. In my experience recklessness tends to come from town, not scum. Town speak their mind, their goal is simply to poke and prod and try to find scum.
Scum generally are more calculating - they care more about how they are perceived as scum doesn;t want to attract attention to themselves.

I think I've decided to ignore the "in my experience town/scum does..." stuff from here on out. The possible consequences of ignoring the sage advice of more experienced players be damned!

7. I think you can ask everyone here, if they think setup speculation is pro-town or pro-scum.
Once again, I don;t see why you are questioning my vote on Blopp as compared to TTJT.

If you want me to ISO you just ask. No need to beat around the bush!

8. Overall don;t see much here regarding motivation/intent of players. It mostly just feels like a recap of whats occurred in the game.

Ok! But I did claim intent to hammer on a player that I had yet to display any issue with at all. And I insinuated that my read on you (another player I haven't really discussed to that point) was dependent on an LL flip. So I'm sorry you found it a useless exercise, but I sure didn't.

@clark:
1. What do you think of BMs reads list?

2. Comparison TTJT to myself:
a) He wasnt on the blopp wagon but was ok with the wagon going ahead
b) scumreads and votes for raya with me
c) had the same scumteam of raya + homura

Do you think there is similarity here?

3. "Because I think he's town. Talk to me about why you don't think he is!"

Where did you get the notion that i think Jam was scummy?

4. OK. Can you post the post where u were asked to iso raya?

[72offsuit]

Let’s go at this in another way. What are your current thoughts on the counterwagons?

How your slot flips will inform a lot of my thinking. I suspect 72 due to his position on LL's dick, where his votes have gone and why, and how he reacted to the claim by LL. Plus his lack of scum hunting. So why am I not voting for 72? Because I'm much less sure about him than you, and if you flip town then I would be forced to really re-evaluate my read on him.

I have a null read on Raya. I iso'd her and stuff, so you can go check that out at your leisure. In short I didn't like her push on LL at first, but she explained her reasoning well enough. LL said my change of heart with Raya occurred "magically" but I gave post links. If you flip scum then she would essentially be a town lock for me. If you flip town than I would look at that early push I didn't like again and follow up more with her.

Lack of scumhunting? Lol...

[72offsuit]

Thirteenth, what would my hanging tell us about the game?

I've been looking at vote counts throughout the game. Jamsv has been the most firm on the LL wagon. Hasn't waivered from their stance. Raya agrees with LL early game on Blopp and then distanced by voting LL as the wagon started turning. Lickety was also pushing hard on LL and dropped a bit after the pr claim. Even with LL backtracking and dropping they have not returned to that wagon. Waiting on them now to further analyze. Meanwhile counterwagon was 72 who agreed with LL. An LL flip would be the strongest indicator of 72 this game. I am almost certain if LL is town than 72 is scum here. Does not work vice versa. Clark on your wagon just now felt extremely oppurtunistic, again more detail coming.

There's so much to learn from your flip.

And I don't want to give 100% away the tell (you can however meta me to find it.) But it's related to one of my (borrowed) rqs question and Clark gave a result with 100% scum rate. Obviously tools like that are just tools so Ive been trying to watch their game independently from it. If they flip scum that tool will be great for future games and if not Clark becomes the exception.

This theory if porkens is eliminated and flips town, that means im scum, is garbage.

This is being punished for having a good read.

If you think my REASONS for townreading LL are craplogic, thats fine. Bit im not really seeing you state that anywhere.

Porkens is also townvibing because scumreading someone who townreads you, when he already has a wagon built on him amd there wasnt a wagon one at that stage is - - - - - - EV

[72offsuit]

It just boggles my mind that LL ended up claiming based on a scumread of three posts.

Porkens.
Read into the relationship between LL and Quick.
LL replaced oit of the previous game he was involved with quick. It was clear to me he was cbf with this game.

LL is not a rage quitter. He is also not a sore loser. I dont see !scumLL replacing out and screwing over his replcement with his fake claim.

[72offsuit]

I went back to analyze the Blopp flake and it's so bizarre. I can see newbie players leaving for a bit and returning to see 4 votes on then as a bit overwhelming but I felt the pressure up to the point they removed their avatar was not that high. I've seen (and done so myself) people drilled early game as newbies which would cause enough frustration for a rage quit. This early wagon was rather tame. But at the same time why return at all to remove your avatar? Clearly no intention of returning and thus rage quit possibility over just not returning/forgetting about the site.

So here's the final scenario I have in my head. Blopp comes back because they remember they are in a mafia game, see 4 votes on them, says screw this, removes avatar and leaves forever.

Ok but this same reaction can come from town too.. It's not scum indicative.. It's NAI

And thus why I didn't join the Blopp wagon. I was giving the benefit of the doubt but at the same time understanding why someone would push it. I felt I had bigger fish to fry over the Blopp and Luciano case and had said I wouldn't really weigh in and focus elsewhere until a replacement came in.

Similarly now that BM has replaced in I want to see were Luciano goes from there.

My guess is scum are not particularly enamoured with me coming into this slot

Players who push the game forward and generate AI content don't die D1.

Spoiler: Nothing like a good old fashioned meme for this occasion

Is my point getting across? Is LL Town because of their claim? Honest question.

I have a TPR. Let's move on.

Why should I believe you wouldn't say this as Scum?

an honest question huh?

If you are town, town are not particularly impressed either.

[72offsuit]

Why would 72 counterwagon away from LL if they know LL is town?

To not be associated with elimnating a member of the town day 1. Thought this was common scum tactics? Plus there was no need with 4 votes and hammering would have been a bad idea.

Again this is all under the assumption LL was town. The only one that really knows the truth is you on that slot. Well LL too.

Question you need to ask here if porkens is lynched and flips town, did i actively push scummy slots, or did i just rest on my laurels and cry "no, dont lynch LL"

[72offsuit]

Think this is the last time im going to defend my townreads in newbie games.

[72offsuit]

I'd take Clark as my buddy to guarantee his first win as scum, and also so you could be right about me and Clark being scum.

to guarantee his first win as scum

to guarantee his first win

his first win

(Again something is off for me with Clark's vote )

Is it that I was leaning town on LL and now am pushing for the slot to be executed? Do you think my reasoning is weak? I'm happy to talk about this, so if something is troubling you don't be shy.

In general, if you think that I'm wrong on the Pork slot or that I'm not taking things into account that I should be please let me know. I just really believe pork is the right kill.

I'm going through your ISO currently. But a quick summary of what I'm seeing. It is based on your stance of LL/Porkens as well as your stance on replacement players. You defend LL hard and slowly worked your way to turning on them. But you teased a vote multiple times and it wasn't until you realized you weren't the hammer that you finally jumped on the wagon. Basically it comes down that you wanted any reason to join the wagon but we're too afraid to hammer so shied away.

This feels like a town-motivated push to me.
I agree with this read.

[72offsuit]

Post 456 is by far the biggest red flag for me. I feel that up to this point Clark was attempting to slowly turn on LL but this posts felt like such a jump it felt forced. Their attitude towards that slot changed from then on.

Agreed. Clark's take on LLs fake claim feels EXTREMELY opportunistic

[72offsuit]

I'm almost done with my wallpost. The short version is that I know I'm town, so I know that his perspective's matching mine WRT Blopp and Raya means he's likely got a townie starting point with his read to the game. I know that's not useful to you, but I'm also going to advocate you eliminate my slot, at which point you should see that 72o's obvtown.

He didn't just sheep me either, he gave independent original thoughts that shared my perspective of the game.

This wasn't exactly true. 72 had 2 thoughts on the Blopp wagon - one was parroting the logically flawed LAMIST argument from Lucky, and the other was something about not liking a smiley face.

Not clear how Lucky-town implies 72-town, but Lucky-scum making this argument further suggests 72-town (too much association).

It was a page 1 wagon to get discussion going based off the slightest of bad pings. Why are you harping on about this at this stage of the game?

[72offsuit]

Nobody tell him.

I hate not being in on a joke.

@FJ13: I'm sorry if it seems I'm contradicting myself. I feel like I'm not, but ok. Why would I say ok to somebody asking to wipe the slate clean? Why would I ignore things that happened in a game simply because there is a different player in the slot?

Scummy. Apologises for being scummy.

[72offsuit]

I don't have one. Just think you're reading too much into something that could have a non-game-related reason for occurring.

Thank you for your contribution to the game. Come back when you want to push the game forward.

What a total asshat, Jesus Christ.

Yes, he can be an ass

[72offsuit]

The avatar removal just feels like an account deactivation. Seems like she decided forum mafia wasnt her cup of tea.
Question is, what it due to !scumher having to explain her way out of a hole, or just disliking the game overall.

Riddle me this: why did 76 vote for bloop?

Ask 72. His reasons seem to be the same as LL's. The exception being that 72 never gave an opinion on the ART. How does that rub you?

Why did 72 change his vote? Why did 72 seem to not know where his vote was at that point in the game?

[72offsuit]

Riddle me this: why did 76 vote for bloop?

Ask 72. His reasons seem to be the same as LL's. The exception being that 72 never gave an opinion on the ART. How does that rub you?

Why did 72 change his vote? Why did 72 seem to not know where his vote was at that point in the game?

I knew i voted blopp, and i thought i had voted raya when i started scumreading her.
Nice shading here though.

[72offsuit]

You are townreading me for scumreading someone who townreads him? Am I following that correctly?

You jave been confrontational and poked and prodded.
It gives me town vibes

[72offsuit]

He's mafia, my vote is no longer random.

Agreed.

VOTE: Blopp

That’s not what you said here.

I dont see why you are questioning my motivation here.
Let me break it down.

1) I get an initial bad ping, from the smiley face and LAMIST post of blopp.
2) I like to wagon newbies, they are the most likely tl give AI reactions
3) I vote blopp to pressure the slot.

What is hard to understand here?

[72offsuit]

My bad 72, you did at one point refer to the ART. Why did it take you so long, especially when players asked you if your opinion/reasonsing for the Blopp wagon had changed, to address it?

1. Why are you asking me this now and not earlier?

2. I had nothing new to add.

[72offsuit]

Im eliminating between raya and clark today

[72offsuit]

So you thought she was scum or not?

I had a slightly scummy ping off her whopping 3 posts.
I feel like a broken record.

[72offsuit]

Spoiler:

He's mafia, my vote is no longer random.

Agreed.

VOTE: Blopp

UNVOTE: 72
VOTE: Blopp

Why the change of vote?
Same question for 72

23 - dat smiley face --- bad overly friendly/buddy-buddy vibe.
LAMIST - "Lets move out of RVS" with 0 game-related content

UNVOTE:
I don't want a quick hammer. L-2 is plenty for pressure. Scumlean on Lucky for not removing his vote. Could be hoping for that quickhammer

LAMIST. Scumlean on Lucky for not removing his vote... lol. Feels like a forced post.

-0.5 Gangrenous Limb

UNVOTE:
I don't want a quick hammer. L-2 is plenty for pressure. Scumlean on Lucky for not removing his vote. Could be hoping for that quickhammer

Is he your only scumlean or do you have more?

It's page 3. What are you expecting?

Valid point but obviously he had multiple leans. Do you feel they were forced 72? Like he felt pressured to answer so he did?

Yes. Names 2 and a half scumleans in 69 feels like a blurted out response.

By 181 Raya has 4 townleans/reads, which feels like way too many from a town PoV at this stage of the game.

The Homura townread is the sort of read I make as scum on my scumbuddy. "Similar thoughts to myself" --> its the sort of statement, which you cant really test the veracity of.

Dumps me in as a null, still doesnt explain how my actions further scum agenda, or why someone of a scum mindset makes aforementioned plays.
If genuinely believes that my RQS is active lurking filler, then why am I not a scumread?

If I was to take a stab at the game solve, I would say Raya + Homura purely off that reads list.

Why are you asking me for a read on lucky in the middle of your reads list?

I like to ask questions on players I'm unsure of. Sometimes I stick it in my readslist. My readslists are mostly just reference for myself. Could you answer please?

Isn't it Scummy for 72 to ask that?

How so?

Why aks that? Never heard or seen that it is or should be Scummy to ask a question in the middle of a readslist. Like, it's totally something I can see Scum asking to try and look like they are Scum hunting, but not something I can really see Town asking that thinking, "Hmm, seems pretty out of the ordinary you ask a question mid RL. I bet if I ask them why they did that they couldn't come up with an answer if they are Scum." Yeah, not really seeing that coming from Town. Unless 72 has a gob of experience, but even then there are way better things to talk about than something that doesn't really seem Scummy inherently. 72's follow up doesn't really look good either.

72 has seemed evasive. But I'm not sure what to make of that

Can you post specifically in which posts I was evasive?

Lucky and blopp. Maybe Clark but I'm unsure

Where's your vote then?

My vote is "on" Blopp I just don't want him at L-1

Perhaps it is a coincidence, but since being wagoned, Blopp has removed their profile pic. That means they have been onsite and decided not to post. So now we have her ignoring the initial wagon that I started with 72o, despite posting after it began and ignoring my case. In addition, we have her logging on to remove her profile pic and still not posting. Feels a lot like giving up to me.

This is a bad case and very reachy.

Also can you all look back at my two questions (rqs) I asked. I really want to know the answer for the first one.

I'll do this in my next post.

UNVOTE:
I don't want a quick hammer. L-2 is plenty for pressure. Scumlean on Lucky for not removing his vote. Could be hoping for that quickhammer

Is he your only scumlean or do you have more?

Lucky and blopp. Maybe Clark but I'm unsure

"I scumlean Lucky for possibly wanting a quick hammer on my other scumlean."

For the record, I'm expecting Blopp not to post again until the slot is replaced, and if the slot claims VT I will be pushing for the slot to be eliminated.

Just because I scumlean him doesnt mean I'm right (I never take associations into account D1. I often have multiple scumread that don't work together). And its perfectly viable to be concerned about someone not removing their vote at L-1 when Blopp hasn't even talked yet.

Actually since I can't vote Blopp right now VOTE: Lucky. I think this is more likely anyway. Your stats case also was reachy and the whole basis of your scumread isn't concrete. I would accept your case if and only if it was supporting evidence of a much stronger and more viable case.

Isn't most Day 1 early cases reachy? I really hate this argument
Also I see you join The Luciano wagon after I printed you to vote and someone else joined before you. I don't like this. I could argue myself that your case on him is reachy but again my case is reachy here no? Finally your case is more repreat what was already aid to give you a reason to join the wagon. While not Al we always scum indicative it's a good start.

Once I catch up my read here I will chiose where my vote goes but you are definitely setting off alarms.

Most cases D1 are reachy but Lucky's case on Blopp is beyond reachy. I mean look at the case I just posted and tell me how that's a good case. And another concern is usually reachy D1 cases are used to create more discussion (mainly from the player being cased) so we can later get better reads and make better cases. But in this case Blopp isn't here to talk and Lucky keeps pushing her. Lucky isn't playing to get more info. Lucky is playing to get a lynch.

I will respond to your readlist post next. I NEED to respond to this first. Is case on Blopp was from what 2 pages worth of posts? Wouldn't that have to be reachy? Do I agree it's a good case? Weird yes but not really screaming confirmed scum for me and thus my vote is not on Blopp. For an elimation to be made 5 players have to agree it's a good enough case to do so. If an elimation were to occur based on that it would be so telling for the rest of the game. Making a case on a player might not get info on the player ryou are pushing but can give Intel on other players in the wagon. Why did they join the wagon? Did they explain themselves well. If it was bad reasoning, what purpose did they have joining that wagon? Miselimnatiin or bad play? So much can be told by these situations.

Overall it has provided discussion to a slow early game and thus has actually been a very beneficial wagon.

I agree with this but it would be much more beneficial to push a player that's active. You would get much more info from that. And also I don't like how Lucky seems to have 0 interest in Blopp being replaced. He just wants Blopp lynched and doesn't appear to care about whether or not Blopp actually is scum or care about getting more info that could help make that decision.

What gives you the impression LL "just wants Blopa lynched"?

I thought I was voting for raya

VOTE: raya

Vote Count 1.07

LuckyLuciano (4):

Homura, JamSV, Raya36

, LicketyQuickety

Blopp (2):

LuckyLuciano, 72offsuit

ClarkBar (1):

Blopp

Homura (1):

ClarkBar

Raya36 (1):

TheThirteenthJT

Not Voting (0):

Deadline is in

(expired on 2020-07-11 13:52:07)

, at which point we will default to no elimination.

With nine players alive, it takes

five

to reach majority.

Mod Note:

Seeking replacement for Blopp. Homura and ClarkBar have been prodded.

I would bet the farm there is AT LEAST one scum within Homura/Jam/Raya

Spoiler:

Raya, your positioning WRT Blopp is odd. I was okay with the sheep vote in 39 because you seemed genuinely interested in the case. Somewhere down the line the same case you found worth pushing you have decided is worth scumreading for having been pushed. 45 is odd in retrospect. You say that you won't move your vote from Blopp to Clark because you want to hear from Blopp, but you also concede that we're not going to get info out of Blopp's responses anymore because Clark addressed my case for her (47). If Blopp has had an out provided to her already, what's the point of keeping your vote on her?

Nice attempt at discrediting me. Not gonna work. I was interested in the case but when Blopp went MIA and no replacement was coming in the near future AND he got to L-1 I saw that the scumminess actually came from within the wagon. I did join the wagon to see what came of it just like I said and what came of it was I found out you're scum. As for Blopp having an out, taking my vote off was going to give much less info and I talked to Clark without using my vote and got responses that lead me to believe he is town. I did not abandon what I said about Clark and also did not abandon the wagon on Blopp at the same time. The point of keeping my vote is because the vote wasn't just to get a response to what you said. It was also for the reaction to a wagon.

67 is also really weird. Why is there a scumlean on me for not removing my vote on someone that I scumread and not a scumlean on the player who replaced in, put Blopp at E-1, and invited a quickhammer? It feels like Raya's setting up to push me later for this and doesn't feel at all like a genuine read. In 106 you call a 2-line post that I prefaced with "Perhaps it is a coincidence" in 63, "Bad and reachy." Why did you consider my speculation a case at the time? What sort of content did you expect 63 posts into the game that would push the game forward while not being, to some degree, "bad and reachy"? Further, in 67, you scumleaned me for not unvoting but said nothing about 63. Further, you keep calling my push reachy. What about being reachy is scummy? Do you believe that my goal D1 as town is to find an elimination target that has an >Random chance of being scum? Even if my stance on Blopp is reachy, do you not believe that it represents scum equity in the Blopp slot that is >Random? You yourself have continually scumread Blopp

the entire game

while simultaneously pushing me for scumreading her. Why do

you

scumread her? Your initial vote on the slot was a sheep vote, which you yourself admitted was only cast to "see where this goes." Blopp never responded, therefore it never went anywhere, yet you progressed into constantly calling her slot scummy while illustrating none of that progression publicly. And despite you insisting that I'm pushing a mislynch, you hold that you think her slot is scummy.

The difference is Jam was open and clearly stated it was L-1 and their intents etc. You came back and were quiet about it. I really don't see scum coming in, putting someone at L-1 and then inviting the mislynch. Maybe case wasn't the best word choice but I do consider anything with multiple reasons to scumread someone a case. You're nitpicking on wording. There's early game bad and reachy and then there's just bad and reachy and yours was bad. I don't see a town thought process, I see scum trying to make something up out of nothing. I don't see the problem with not saying anything about 63 then.. Reachy is scummy because scum are trying to make scumreads when they are informed and know they're scumreading town. That means they need to make up reasons for why that person is scum which can lead to reachiness. Yes I believe that's your goal as town. I no longer scumread Blopp. Thought I made that clear, sorry. Reactions from Blopp didn't go anywhere no, but the wagon is telling as well.

Why did you ask 72o if his thoughts of Blopp had changed at all in 148 when Blopp has been MIA since his initial vote? Why would his thoughts have changed, and why did you have a special interest in hearing his thoughts on the Blopp slot rather than others, like the slot you have been pushing: me? Your stance on Blopp honestly feels like you tried to distance early and are not awkwardly trying to defend her (anyone else hear the distant revving of a chainsaw) while maintaining your early, unexplained scumread on her to appear consistent. In 181 you have decided that the

only

reason Blopp is scummy is lack of content. This seems to be a deterioration in your read on her since your earlier scumlean on her 67. What reason did you have to scumlean Blopp in 67, and why did it disappear by 181. She hadn't been gone for long enough for lack of content to be a reason to scumlean her, and it was early enough in the game that other slots had just as little or less content. So please, educate me on your thought process here.

I forgot Blopp hadn't posted since then. His post was early game and I never referred back to see when Blopp's last post was. How is that even scummy...

But I'm not maintaining my scumread on her. I seriously think she's a mislynch and I said that you're pushing a mislynch several times which clearly means I'm townreading her. Keep in mind when reading my 181 that it was written during a reread. And in my reread I decided that you're likely scum and Blopp is town.

Let's move on to 182. You say that my case is scummy because I'm pushing a spot that isn't around to respond, but my case is premised on

why

that slot isn't around to respond. Do you believe it is possible that I believe in my reads? If so, why is my push scummy? Do you stop pushing a scumread because they leave the game or choose not to respond? Later on your argument against me more clearly becomes that you believe I'm pushing a miskick (218). How do you differentiate town pushing town from scum pushing town? What about my push on Blopp indicates that it is a push I would make as scum but wouldn't make as town? If you are still holding Blopp as scummy, how can my push so obviously be a miskick? I can only clearly be pushing a miskick if I'm pushing an obvtown slot, no? Please explain to me how you know I'm pushing a miskick on a slot you scumread.

Your push is scummy because you seem to want it lynched regardless of whether there is or is not a replacement. And your whole case is on the premise that they're not here but you're not considering the MANY other possible reasons for that and you're ignoring me when I ask you about them. I've already explained many times why your push seems like scum pushing town and not town pushing town. (bad case, reachy, not caring about the replacement, stated you'd want to lynch if the replacement claims VT, not considering other possibilities for being MIA, pushing someone who currently doesn't have a voice, etc)

On to 228. The first thing you do is appeal to authority with Homura. That's laughable because I have more experience than Homura, so if you are using experience as a reason to accept or deny my push, you should be taking my side. Moreover, it's not that I haven't considered other possibilities for Blopp flaking. It's that among all possible explanations, I believe that the explanations leading to scum!Blopp hold more equity than those leading to town!Blopp. I think the deletion of her avatar answers back

many, if not all

of the NAI explanations for her flaking, and when left with only scumAI and townAI explanations for a newbie dipping after getting immediate pressure from multiple players in response to a post they made, my experience leads me to believe that there are far more prevalent scumAI explanations than townAI. Further, you say in the same post that you don't find Blopp's behavior particularly AI. Again, explain to me your earlier scumread on Blopp if her behavior suddenly isn't AI.

You don't have experience in Newbie games on this site though. Your experience can not be compared in this context. Explain to me why Blopp couldn't have just came in, deleted her avatar with intent to get a new one, then just never did and siteflaked. Tell me why Blopp couldn't have just decided they want nothing to do with this site regardless of alignment and deleted their avatar and siteflaked. This is why I don't find it AI. You're telling me this player should be lynched regardless of what the replacement says (if they claim VT) when all you have is a flimsy case with several counter-arguments.

A particular line I feel warrants a response,

So basically what you're saying in that second line is unless Blopp slot is a power role you won't consider anything the replacement has to say and won't reconsider your read.

Yeah. That's pretty much what I'm saying. The goal D1 is always to find a slot that has a >Rand chance of being scum and voting there. The goal D1 is not to solve the game. If a slot with high scum equity claims VT, you eliminate them. You don't go searching through slots with lesser scum equity and get more claims, either outing a TPR or further limiting the pool of TPR for scum to choose from for their NK. It's called best practical play.

I do agree that once a player claims VT it's probably for the best to lynch them unless they suddenly become very obvtown, however your wording is making me think that even before the replacement claims anything you won't care about what they have to say. They'll only claim once they get to L-1 with intent, so what if that never happens?

I'm not 100% convinced Blopp is town. I just don't trust your case on her and I don't believe it to be a good case with good intentions. The more I believe you're pushing for a mislynch the more I believe Blopp is town though. And yes Blopp flipping town does give info but why should I push for a flip on Blopp when I'm sure you're scum pushing for a mislynch on Blopp.

Either you think I'm scum pushing for a miskick or you don't. If you are so convinced that I'm scum pushing for a miskick, why would you say that you are not 100% convinced Blopp is town. Even if it is a true statement, what compelled you to throw it out there. It feels a lot like building a safety net for Blopp being kicked, either today, or tomorrow if I were to be kicked today. At some point that slot

will

flip, and when it does you need to have already saved face, and this is part of you trying to do that.

Because I don't 100% know you're scum. I just really really think you are. If you're not then I wouldn't be 100% convinced Blopp is town. My basis for Blopp being town is you being scum and I don't do D1 associations during D1.

Also, anyone who doesn't read this as scum is a joke of a player,

If you're so happy with flipping town and you're actually town why not let us flip you. We'll get more info from that than Blopp's flip.

Just saying that it's inconsistent to be willing to flip town for info but be unwilling to flip yourself when that would give us even more info.

See bolded part ^
The "I forgot" line. It's scummy because this sort of play doesn't come from a town mindset. From what I gather Raya's scumread on LL appears to primarily revolve around his vote on Blopa. Town in general is more balanced and open to re-evaluate their reads as town does NOT know alignments. I think !TownRaya here, would focus more on Blopa's posting (or lack of), to follow-up on the veracity of their reads.

Thus, I think the "forgetting" that Blopa hasn;t posted since, as Raya has said here in 354
AND
Raya's questioning myself on the progress of my read on Blopa in [post]148[/post] , speaks volumes.


Need more votes on the Raya elimination locomotion.
Choo choo choo
Hop on board the Raya express, no ticket required to ride this train!

I went back to analyze the Blopp flake and it's so bizarre. I can see newbie players leaving for a bit and returning to see 4 votes on then as a bit overwhelming but I felt the pressure up to the point they removed their avatar was not that high. I've seen (and done so myself) people drilled early game as newbies which would cause enough frustration for a rage quit. This early wagon was rather tame. But at the same time why return at all to remove your avatar? Clearly no intention of returning and thus rage quit possibility over just not returning/forgetting about the site.

So here's the final scenario I have in my head. Blopp comes back because they remember they are in a mafia game, see 4 votes on them, says screw this, removes avatar and leaves forever.

Ok but this same reaction can come from town too.. It's not scum indicative.. It's NAI

And thus why I didn't join the Blopp wagon. I was giving the benefit of the doubt but at the same time understanding why someone would push it. I felt I had bigger fish to fry over the Blopp and Luciano case and had said I wouldn't really weigh in and focus elsewhere until a replacement came in.

Similarly now that BM has replaced in I want to see were Luciano goes from there.

This is good and town thinking. Scum would likely choose a side I think even just lightly.

Another scummy post from Raya.

Why is BM's post "good and town thinking"?

Scum 101 tactic is to hedge bets, fence-sit and to simply wait and see where the chips fall, to see what vote is most advatageous for scumagenda, before making their play with more information available. Just like sitting on the button in poker - Last player to act has more information to make their move.

Looker
LicketyQuickety
JamS

Only 2 town-reads when from !town BM's PoV there are 7 other town?
Yeah nah. Scummy reads list.

It feels to me like his wagon got run up, he doesnt want town wasting town focussing on him, and doesnt care all that much about this game, so isnt that fussed about being night-killed.

I don't know where you're getting the don't care about the game vibe because those wall posts about me seemed like caring

Why are you disputing what I said when it's obvious my read on him was correct. He is replacing out is he not?
So unless you think I am EXACTLY scum-teamed-with-LL, why question my read?

Keep on digging your own grave Raya. *Dig Dig*

I think my whole case and how reactionary Lucky acted in response is enough on its own

I don't believe the claim at all. Scum ALWAYS claims a PR in this situation. So why are we just blindly trusting Lucky's PR claim when we don't even know the specific role and can just get by without a counterclaim

Who is the "we" that you refer to in this post?

We as in town in general

I'd like you to be more specific. WHICH particular players in particular werer you referring to?

Raya's 428 is the scummiest post in this game. Please everyone take the time to follow this exchange.

Not only does he include himself in the "we" of town, which is independently scummy, but more importantly,

also does not specifically refer to the specific players that stated believed LL's claim was genuine.

72, did you read my summation of my feelings about you? Why were you on a wagon for a player and then later say the wagon was garbage? I need more from you regarding your read on Raya. Why do you consistently apologize for LL? Seems to me you find LL to be totally town, so how can you simultaneously dislike the Blopp wagon and yet find BM scummy and the LL slot town?

What prompted you to ask this question?

Because you've stated your disdain for the Blopp wagon despite being briefly on it and dismissing criticisms of its primary architect. BM is in that slot now, and BM is scummy to you. What impact does this have for you in terms of the Blopp wagon?


428 is the scummiest post of the game? Do tell! I'm a big dummy and can miss the obvious.

No i didn;t recall any particular summation or any outstanding questions. Please post the post number. It's hard enough following the thread without links or a number. If its something you really want answered or responded to, the easier you make it, the more likely someone will do it.

It's the scummiest post, because not many people have actually come out and said they believed LL's claim was real, despite raya saying
"So why are we just blindly trusting Lucky's PR claim"

Why didn;t raya just direct that towards me?
It gives me the impresssion raya knows I;m town and has extrapolated my view onto "town" in general.






The fact raya disappeared, after I challenged her, is pretty telling in its own right.

Spoiler:

I've been reticent in giving reads because I fear that giving even mild town-reads will influence my own perspective whether I'm conscious of it or not. However I have observed more experienced players do so regularly, so maybe my thinking on that is wrong. Also, this exercise may prove valuable for me. There might be some repetitive stuff here, and sorry for the wall of text. Let me start with where my vote is...

Homura/Looker:

Not a huge fan of not giving a reason, even a random one, for the vote on LL. I don't have an issue with not liking LL's Blopp ART, but there is a bit of a misrepresentation by Homura that LL's push on Blopp comes only from that angle. In my last game I disregarded a player that just posted opinions and was reactive instead of proactive and I got burned by doing so. I saw similar behavior from Homura and wanted to engage with her more. As it turns out she may just not have had any interest in the game whatsoever. There is replacement and I'm eager to hear their thoughts. At the moment there is no good reason for my vote to be where it is.

UNVOTE: Homura/Looker

And in no particular order...

Blopp/Battle Mage:

LL seems to feel that first-time scum will give a greeting in their first post, but I don't know the merit of that argument. Ultimately there are three posts that are pretty much fluff. I think 23 was just an attempt to get conversation going. 29 isn't that exciting to me either, but I may be missing something big about RQS. So now we get to the ART issue. I don't think it's as reachy as some others do, but it also wasn't near enough for me to join the wagon. Now we have Battle Mage in the slot. BM was in my first game and I liked playing with him. So far this game he hasn't contributed much, and I'm a little confused by his last few posts. I have no read on him yet. The slot itself I do look at with some suspicion.

TheThirteenthJT:

Wants an early wagon on me, which is fine. I don't know how anyone would read 52 seriously, but nothing wrong with kicking the tires. Seems to share my opinion on LL's push on Blopp. This is where issues with Raya pop up. 13JT feels that Raya moving her vote onto LL is a result of pressure by him and the reasons are forced. 13JT brings up how it is interesting that Jam put Blopp at E-1 and isn't getting called out for it. I shared this same concern in my ISO of Raya. 13JT continues to criticize Raya's criticism of LL's criticism of Blopp. Again, it appears 13JT and I are on the same page regarding the quality of the case on Blopp. And it's true, that has been the wagon that has generated the most discussion. The thought of a Raya/Homura scum team is welcomed by 13JT and he moves his vote over to Raya. Says I failed a test (for the love of God I can't wait to find out how). 13JT then comes back to the ART and puts more stock into it. This is a little odd to come back to something already discussed and have such a stronger opinion about it, but I can see that happening with rereads. It's likely to happen to me. What is strange is to then say that the Blopp wagon has scum outside of Jam. Not sure I follow this, and I don't follow the distancing accusation made towards Quick and Raya. Kinda agree on policy-lynching players like LL. I think I have a slight-town read on 13JT.

LicketyQuickety:

Seems to come in with some baggage from a previous game. I don't discount meta, but like I've said I'm not going to go read old games unless the circumstances dictate a need to. I don't follow the suspicion on 72 for asking why he was asked for reads. That's a big yawn for me. Goes on to post some "music". Gets into it a little bit with LL, again I'm not going to worry about LL's meta. Especially if Quick is correct and he's actively manipulating his play. I'm sorry, but I'm just not that interested in pursuing a case(s) that are rooted in Newbie 2007. I do agree that claiming a PR does not clear you of suspicion, and if I had the certainty about a player that Quick has about LL I would be totally unimpressed by the claim. And, as it turns out LL was lying. I don't understand the unvote in 291. I don't get the 13JT vote. I thought the avatar for BM was a sweet thing to do, but obviously not AI. I do believe the lack of a grudge/agenda against LL despite how hard she came down on him upon entering the game. Null/town.

JamSV

There is some baggage here. I single-handedly lost my first game for town by hammering Jam. I'm a little more cautious with how I look at him now. He likes to put players at E-1, and doesn't always follow that vote up with any kind of questioning or anything. So the E-1 vote on Blopp was no surprise to me at all. I don't understand his position on quick hammers being unlikely or not being AI considering what went down our last game together. The spat between Jam and LL is interesting, even if I find the statistics stuff goofy. I love 116, and I agree with Jam. Jam predicts a 72/LL scum team, a prediction that I suppose Quick would appreciate. Now that I'm starting to get to know Jam a little better I like it when he gets aggravated. I don't disagree with Jam's take on the ART, I just find it more potentially scummy than he does. I'm not going to take Jam thinking BM was the best player in our last game personally. I'm not. I'm really not. I don't like the speculation on PR's, but I don't find it scummy either. I'm not experienced enough to know the best way to approach a claim like LL made. I think I have to put Jam in my town-bloc for now.

Raya36:

Well I just did an ISO on her, so this will be brief. I totally appreciate 13JT's suspicion. As I've said, the whole thing with LL not unvoting is thin and weird, especially given Jam's E-1 vote going unmentioned. LL seems to think my change of opinion happens "magically", but it's a result of Raya's response to the things that really bothered me. I might be easily swayed, but I believed her reasoning. I do think I gave her too much of a town-read, she's more null for me.

LuckyLuciano:

I don't have an issue with the initial reasons for the vote on Blopp, even if they didn't inspire me much. I don't have an issue with the ART, and I don't have an issue with not unvoting Bopp when put at E-1. I like that despite pressure to let go of the Blopp vote, LL sticks to his guns. I like 239. I don't really care about Newbie 2007. I don't feel that LL is being obtuse about Quick's case on him. That fucking claim though. At this point in the game I didn't have a scum-read on LL so I chose to believe the claim. It did bother me a little that the claim was made when there was no stated intent to hammer, but I just came off a game where quickhammers closed out 2 of the 3 days so I can see why town would do that. But this claim is apparently a lie, and this is where LL's tone really changes. Lying about being a PR while town seems really reckless to me and I don't see the value. So here is where I have to make a choice about how I view this slot. Is it that 1. LL is scum who was trying to push an early misexecute but was too stubborn to back off from pressure, got pouty about the wagon on him, made a false claim to shake off the attention, and then essentially rage quit (which is a bit hypocritical) while throwing shade at the people in the game who were pressuring him OR is that that 2. LL is town who strongly felt that the case on Blopp was solid gold, got frustrated by people disagreeing with his case/logic, is easily butthurt by Quick and Jam, and made the claim to refocus attention elsewhere, and then rage-quit because things weren't going his way? I think I'm going to land on the first option being a little more likely, and that largely is due to the claim. I don't see a town benefit to it as strongly as I see a scum benefit. Furthermore, scum!LL taking back the claim prevents any need to claim a specific role and cleans the slate for his replacement. I will reserve my vote until a replacement comes in, but I don't know how they can really answer for LL. I think I'd be comfortable hammering this slot.

72offsuit:

Agrees with LL on the early Blopp case. If he is a scum buddy with LL then this seems a somewhat bold move. Introduces the RQS as a "great scum hunting tool" but declines to answer the questions. The might be a joke though considering 72 then does answer the questions a little later. Very aloof. People accuse 72 of being evasive, I find him to be more blasé in tone than evasive. Interestingly 72 seems to come around to the idea that the Blopp ART isn't very strong. So why is the vote still there? I don't care about Newbie 2007. Ok, so 72 feels that the Blopp wagon is garbage, and thought his vote was on Raya. I don't like this, maybe I'm not following along well enough. 72 seems to be defending LL's push on Blopp, was a part of that push, then declared it a garbage wagon and moved his vote to a player who was pressuring LL. He gives LL the benefit of the doubt repeatedly, but granted he has somewhat of a history with LL. I don't have enough experience to have a strong stance on when it's appropriate to claim a specific power-role. But, if the LL slot is scum then it does seem to me that scum would rather not have any specific claims made in case they get called out. So, is 72's motive to not have LL claim born out of a desire to not have town speculate on the setup, or as an act of preservation for their scum-partner? That's a tough call for me to make right now. A flip on the LL slot seems to me to be of the greatest value right now.

Sorry if that was sloppily done. If there are any questions, comments, or concerns please share them. I might have missed obvious stuff.

Positive: Regardless if town or scum appreciate the effort in this post. Keeps the game moving.
Negative: Pretty much disagree with half the reads here.

1. You say you are confused about BM's posts, but I don;t see you actually clarifying them or any follow-up on your behalf.

2. TTJT and I have similar reads but somehow I am scummy and he is town. The read on TTJT and myself doesn;t really match up.

3. Read on Quick seems reasonable, like it could be from a town-mindset.

4. "I think I have to put Jam in my town-bloc for now". Pretty much zero discussion about Jam's actual ALIGNMENT, just goes on about why you like Jam, so I still have no idea how you conclude to put him as a town read.

5. The ISO on raya just feels really underwhelming, once again I'm not really getting the vibe of alignment sorting, it just feels like Information Instead of Analysis. Furthermore I don;t understand why Raya was chosen as the only player to be ISO'ed.

6. In my experience recklessness tends to come from town, not scum. Town speak their mind, their goal is simply to poke and prod and try to find scum.
Scum generally are more calculating - they care more about how they are perceived as scum doesn;t want to attract attention to themselves.

7. I think you can ask everyone here, if they think setup speculation is pro-town or pro-scum.
Once again, I don;t see why you are questioning my vote on Blopp as compared to TTJT.

8. Overall don;t see much here regarding motivation/intent of players. It mostly just feels like a recap of whats occurred in the game.

7 is a slight ping. It's a commonly known tell that true newbies are statistically more likely to start their first post in forum games with a greeting when they roll mafia.

Hmm, ok. So why didn't you vote for me? Or more Homura, who arguably ducked out even harder...

23 is a slightly larger ping. It's LAMIST (Look at me, I'm so town). She's 'trying to move from RVS' by asking Clark what moved their game from RVS without moving the game forward herself. More specifically, she's offering content that at first glance appears to look town but upon closer inspection is not in any way AI because it doesn't offer any real thoughts. That's typically scum.

Yeah, I get what you're saying, but that appears to be way more of a way of moving the conversation than intentional fluff posting. She even threw a wink at the end referencing my post about breaking the ice.

Finally, I don't like how she disappeared after getting 2 votes on her in quick succession. She posted after them, and with the preview feature she has to have seen them. Seems panicky to just dip out like that.

Maybe she didn't take it seriously. I do want to see her respond to your points for herself, I just find your reasons pretty thin.

Townpoints for Clark - no reason to defend the newbie here as scum.

@Clark, you have a completed game. Homura has many completed games.

I'm singling out the easiest target with a 'case' which flatters to deceive.

If you want to move the game from RVS, why are you defending Blopp instead of seeing what comes of this?

Just piss off and let me bully the newbie

Also, do not go out of your way to explain the reasoning of others. You are not a God who can read minds, none of us are. Let them explain themselves.

Let them try and explain their way out of my largely bogus case on Page 2, or I'll pick on you instead?

No comment here on Clark towntell

What follows is a gross sequence of posts from Raya (viewer discretion advised):

I want to see what comes of this so I'll sheep you

VOTE: Blopp

Sheeping here is a bit yuck, especially having seen how weak case is, and Raya surely better player than that?

[...]I just find your reasons pretty thin.

Why are you responding to this instead of letting Blopp respond... how are we supposed to

get info

put of Blopp if you respond for them? Do you town read Blopp? Or scumread Lucky?

what info? since when did it become anti-town to give your opinions on things as they arise? Aggression here towards Clark is odd, given Raya hasn't actually endorsed the case itself and appeared initially to be wagonning for the sake of wagonning. As above, Blopp was set up to fail here, and the pressure to silence dissenters from the easy mislynch is NAGL.

The only reason I'm not moving my vote to Clark is because I want to hear from Blopp

What did you want to hear from him?

But by giving a response you're making it easier for scum!Blopp to

get out of a tough situation

by just saying what you said is correct and maybe expanding on it. We get no info anymore unless Blopp decides to say something extremely different from what you said.

A general guideline that's good to follow is to never respond for someone else. It only ruins the potential to gain new info from that player. Especially if what you're responding to is a case, like what you responded to

The mis-coaching from Raya here gives me the creeps. "get out of a tough situation" is a telling choice of words - Raya clearly appreciates the 'case' isn't one which a newbie could easily refute despite the fact it isn't grounded in good logic. The inference here is that Raya is expecting (maybe hoping?) Blopp won't respond in a way which "gets them out of a tough situation" and is disappointed that she was given a proverbial lifeline.

Moreover, I don't like to see SE players giving bad advice to newbies, regardless of alignment.

No reason to townread/defend a newbie as scum?
This is so wrong its not funny. Pocketing newbies is scum 101. Literally the first page of the manual. Newbies in general are much more impressionable and tend to be easier to pocket.

Spoiler:

Positive: Regardless if town or scum appreciate the effort in this post. Keeps the game moving.
Negative: Pretty much disagree with half the reads here.

Fair!

1. You say you are confused about BM's posts, but I don;t see you actually clarifying them or any follow-up on your behalf.

It's that there were a few of them that seemed to be weird non-sequiters, but there were no votes or reads in them so I just shrugged. His posting since has been normal.

2. TTJT and I have similar reads but somehow I am scummy and he is town. The read on TTJT and myself doesn;t really match up.

They sure don't! Similar reads in what way?

3. Read on Quick seems reasonable, like it could be from a town-mindset.

Perceptive!

4. "I think I have to put Jam in my town-bloc for now". Pretty much zero discussion about Jam's actual ALIGNMENT, just goes on about why you like Jam, so I still have no idea how you conclude to put him as a town read.

Because I think he's town. Talk to me about why you don't think he is!

5. The ISO on raya just feels really underwhelming, once again I'm not really getting the vibe of alignment sorting, it just feels like Information Instead of Analysis. Furthermore I don;t understand why Raya was chosen as the only player to be ISO'ed.

Because I was asked to! And I'm sorry if it was underwhelming, but I

did

put a disclaimer at the top about that likelihood. Caveat emptor!

6. In my experience recklessness tends to come from town, not scum. Town speak their mind, their goal is simply to poke and prod and try to find scum.
Scum generally are more calculating - they care more about how they are perceived as scum doesn;t want to attract attention to themselves.

I think I've decided to ignore the "in my experience town/scum does..." stuff from here on out. The possible consequences of ignoring the sage advice of more experienced players be damned!

7. I think you can ask everyone here, if they think setup speculation is pro-town or pro-scum.
Once again, I don;t see why you are questioning my vote on Blopp as compared to TTJT.

If you want me to ISO you just ask. No need to beat around the bush!

8. Overall don;t see much here regarding motivation/intent of players. It mostly just feels like a recap of whats occurred in the game.

Ok! But I did claim intent to hammer on a player that I had yet to display any issue with at all. And I insinuated that my read on you (another player I haven't really discussed to that point) was dependent on an LL flip. So I'm sorry you found it a useless exercise, but I sure didn't.

@clark:
1. What do you think of BMs reads list?

2. Comparison TTJT to myself:
a) He wasnt on the blopp wagon but was ok with the wagon going ahead
b) scumreads and votes for raya with me
c) had the same scumteam of raya + homura

Do you think there is similarity here?

3. "Because I think he's town. Talk to me about why you don't think he is!"

Where did you get the notion that i think Jam was scummy?

4. OK. Can you post the post where u were asked to iso raya?

Post 456 is by far the biggest red flag for me. I feel that up to this point Clark was attempting to slowly turn on LL but this posts felt like such a jump it felt forced. Their attitude towards that slot changed from then on.

Agreed. Clark's take on LLs fake claim feels EXTREMELY opportunistic

Nobody tell him.

I hate not being in on a joke.

@FJ13: I'm sorry if it seems I'm contradicting myself. I feel like I'm not, but ok. Why would I say ok to somebody asking to wipe the slate clean? Why would I ignore things that happened in a game simply because there is a different player in the slot?

Scummy. Apologises for being scummy.

Riddle me this: why did 76 vote for bloop?

Ask 72. His reasons seem to be the same as LL's. The exception being that 72 never gave an opinion on the ART. How does that rub you?

Why did 72 change his vote? Why did 72 seem to not know where his vote was at that point in the game?

I knew i voted blopp, and i thought i had voted raya when i started scumreading her.
Nice shading here though.

How is this not scumhunting? Aren;t you going to look like a total tool if Raya/Clark are scum. Or maybe I'll look like a tool if they are town

[72offsuit]

You saying I'm not scum-hunting is a gross misrepresentation of my effort in this game.

[72offsuit]

Regardless or my or your alignment.

[72offsuit]

Sigh, that spoiler went awry, my entire posting sequence was meant to be spoilered.

[72offsuit]

Is it fair to say 80% of that it focused on your reya read and/or defending yourself?

Where do i spend time defending myself?
It's probs 70% Raya, 20% Clark, 10% BM. Not counting-posts-wise, but just how I generally feel like I;ve invested time into

[72offsuit]

Clark tell me what’s up with reya.

72, where did you push scummy slots can you quote it or something?

Here ^

[72offsuit]

That's the impression i got.

[72offsuit]

What was your motivation behind the post?

[72offsuit]

Looker replaced Homura: Lurky as fuck. How can I read this?

I'm not lurky, you just have nothing better to do with your time. You made 72 posts in the course of a day. I have things to do, a job, and an occupation where I don't have access to my phone.

Spoiler:

Ok sorry about contributing to 10 pages today. I just finished my secodnnd read through and here’s my new spicy take:

Reya is ropebait and scum are setting up to mishang her.

El Town:
JamSV replaced individual
ClarkBar
LicketyQuickety (SE) replaced EchoVision
Raya36 (SE)
Porkens (SE) replaced LuckyLuciano

Scum are in:
Looker replaced Homura
72offsuit
Battle Mage replaced Blopp
TheThirteenthJT

(Now there is an alternate universe where Echo was scum with Blooper but that’s pretty tinfoil)

Anyway, could be shit, but there you have it.

VOTE: TheThirteenthJT

Flip preferences: 29% Porkens | 20% JamSV | 16% Raya | 14% ThirteenthJT or LicketyQuick | 12% Battle Mage | 9% 72offsuit | 0% ClarkBar

---

I've been working longer hours so I'm more irritated by the time I get home. Sorry. LuckyLuciano is not a bad person. His fakeclaim and AtE are still scummy, though.

What are these %'s based on?
Why is Clark 0%?

[72offsuit]

Lol. Thanks for killing quick. Im happy to join the scum team as a town traitor.

[72offsuit]

Thats one less headache

[72offsuit]

LL/Porkens wagon was a steaming pile of dung. Id say 1 scum off wagon. Clark off wagon, raya on wagon. Gg.

VOTE: Clark

[72offsuit]

VOTE: 72offsuit

I disagree with those feeling 72 is town after that turn. I explained the reasons for the opposite Day 1.

Clark and Raya are still some of my favorites and Battle Mage is now also suspect to me.

Jamesv is weird...

No thoughts on Looker yet. Most of my thinking is still based off Homuras play which I will revisit.

Current areadlist scum to less scum.
72 confident here.
Raya
Clark
battle mage
Looker
Jamsv

I see a few potential scum pairings too.
72 and Clark or BM and Clark. I have no pairing for Raya currently.

Quick thoughts, I'm tired tonight and will check back in tomorrow.

If you have 2 top scumteams in mind and Clark appears in both, why would you not vote clark?

[72offsuit]

VOTE: 72offsuit

I disagree with those feeling 72 is town after that turn. I explained the reasons for the opposite Day 1.

Clark and Raya are still some of my favorites and Battle Mage is now also suspect to me.

Jamesv is weird...

No thoughts on Looker yet. Most of my thinking is still based off Homuras play which I will revisit.

Current areadlist scum to less scum.
72 confident here.
Raya
Clark
battle mage
Looker
Jamsv

I see a few potential scum pairings too.
72 and Clark or BM and Clark. I have no pairing for Raya currently.

Quick thoughts, I'm tired tonight and will check back in tomorrow.

Why do you scumread me if i scumread your other top 3 scumreadas. Non sequitur. It does not follow.

[72offsuit]

Ok BM beat me to it

[72offsuit]

Looker replacement for Homura

Homura - No lean either way prior to her replacement out. Didn't really do much. Felt like the most likely partner for !scumRaya in the early game.
She hasn't posted anywhere onsite since 5 July, the day after her last post in this game - No reads based off her replacement out.

Looker - Townlean.

My general impression of Looker based off our previous games is he tends to get offside with a player or 2 as town,
doesn't post a whole ton of content, which tends to him getting lynched. His reads don;t tend to be particularly accurate in general.
Don;t have a game with him in which he has been scum to compare to.

His readslist style and posting tone and content feels the same as his normal town game.

Despite a measly 7 posts, throwing Looker into the "Probably town" bin at this stage, given:
- 4 other scummy slots in Clark, Raya, TTJT and BM
- Of those wagoning LL, I can most sympathise with Looker's vote and reasoning on LL in post 474 , stating LL was scum "faking his outrage".
This theory is consistent with LL's abrasive/attacking style as scum being wagoned.
[ See: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p11853926 ]

- Post 637: Abrasive post that doesn't help !scumagenda

- Post 746: Reasoning for his lynch flips for information seems genuine, and feels consistent with the order of value of information would be garnered from flips.
So can see the town-motivation here.

Previous games of ours if anyone cbf:
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=82578
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=82564

[72offsuit]

Battle Mage replaced Blopp
Blopp: null-scum
BM : also null-scum


Post 469 : Scummy. Scumreads me for wagon pressuring a newbie on page 1 for "piggybacking with no explanation", despute it being a page 2 vote.


Post 470: AWFUL, but not scummy reasoning to townread Clark - "no reason to defend the newbie here as scum"
As i mentioned before, !scumClark can easily pocket newbie!townBlopp here. Given BM replaced into the Blopp slot, this isn't alignment indicative on its own,
but does increase stocks in the Clar/BM scum duo.


Post 476: Analysis of Clark's post 74 feels genuine. I also didn;t like the shift in Clark's view on LL.
Seems opportunistic given the direction LL's slot was heading in, with plenty of attention on that slot.


Post 477 / : Garbage readslist pretty much, pretty much disagree with most of the reads.
Having said that, I;m not particuarly enamoured with !townBM's reading accuracy.


Post 480:
"I think an LL scum-flip should give an easy solve, although I haven't worked that through yet - will do that once I've experienced the whole game."

Dangles the LL-elimination carrot, selling it as as "easy-solve", both encouraging others onto the townLL wagon and justifying his own vote on the wagon.


Post 588:

Only 1 scumread though, and largest wagon at this point, so not going out on much of a limb. Although she hasn't given herself much room for manoerve either.

- This statement gives me town vibes, feels like its coming from a town-mindset.
Seems to assess the probability of !scumRaya's readslist from a scum-agenda point of view, reasonable conclusion.


Post 634: Scummy vibes. Feels a bit red-herring-ish in hindsight. Discusses a scenario (!scumLL) that is now known to be false.
"Lucky-scum making this argument further suggests 72-town (too much association)"

--- scum101 - appearance of being pro-town by making statements regareding player alignments/associations,
but based on theories KNOWN to be false, thus rendering ZERO information for futures days.

i.e: !scumBM knows LL is town, so talks about !scumLL scenario, which when LL is lynched, gives nothing.


Post 783: Town-vibe from this post.
Rehashing a post in which a townie calls you out as being scum is -EV for scum. It is detrimental for scum agenda.
I don;t feel !scumBM drags up a post about Quick scumreading BM, even an FPS-player like BM.


Post 955 feels like its coming from a townmindset, poking at inconsistency from TTJT.


I moonlight as a diagnosis specialist. I have diagnosed BM with a terrible affliction. It is a rare disease endemic to mafia/werewolf players known as FPS.
Yet, that nasty illness known as Fancy Play Syndrome. If he can bus 2 scum buddies even when there is ZERO need to do so, he will still do so.

I'd say BM is probs town if one of TTJT or Clark is scum.
If Raya is scum, then I would say BM scum stocks go up +++.
Killing off Quick, BM's scumread, also fits !BM FPS.

BM's progressional overall in terms of readslist seems ok.

I think his slot gets resolves through the eliminations of Clark/TTJT/Raya.

Conclusion: Null-scum

[72offsuit]

jesus christ. i'm alive and all my suspects are dead

and town

.

initial thoughts: Jam-scum wouldn't have made that weird play yesterday around the Porkens wagon. Too conspicuous and odd for no reason.
Raya's posts at end of day had conviction and didn't leave herself open to a Porkens town-flip. Felt legit.
Must be at least 1 scum on the Porkens wagon because there was no reason not to be, therefore must be TTJT and/or Looker.
need to revisit 72offsuit as i think i basically locktowned him based on pork being scum.

I may be biased but 72 has been really aggressively pushing me and the reasoning doesnt all feel that great

Then convince me you are town. I have 4 scumreads, it needs to go down to 2.
Who is scum? Why are they scum? Make it foolproof.

[72offsuit]

Jam, keep your eye on the prize.
Clark is scum.
Looker is a distraction.

[72offsuit]

jesus christ. i'm alive and all my suspects are dead

and town

.

initial thoughts: Jam-scum wouldn't have made that weird play yesterday around the Porkens wagon. Too conspicuous and odd for no reason.
Raya's posts at end of day had conviction and didn't leave herself open to a Porkens town-flip. Felt legit.
Must be at least 1 scum on the Porkens wagon because there was no reason not to be, therefore must be TTJT and/or Looker.
need to revisit 72offsuit as i think i basically locktowned him based on pork being scum.

I may be biased but 72 has been really aggressively pushing me and the reasoning doesnt all feel that great

I'm not even voting for you. If you are town you are playing horribly.

[72offsuit]

Will hopefully have time to continue ISOs tonight.

[72offsuit]

jesus christ. i'm alive and all my suspects are dead

and town

.

initial thoughts: Jam-scum wouldn't have made that weird play yesterday around the Porkens wagon. Too conspicuous and odd for no reason.
Raya's posts at end of day had conviction and didn't leave herself open to a Porkens town-flip. Felt legit.
Must be at least 1 scum on the Porkens wagon because there was no reason not to be, therefore must be TTJT and/or Looker.
need to revisit 72offsuit as i think i basically locktowned him based on pork being scum.

I may be biased but 72 has been really aggressively pushing me and the reasoning doesnt all feel that great

So which push DO you like and why?

[72offsuit]

I still don;t get why !townRaya brings this up when its a new day and I was clearly voting for clark, prior to actually posting thoughts on others. So self-centric. It's scummy.

[72offsuit]

Unvote.

[72offsuit]

Without having done ISOs my feel about the game pre-claim:
ClarkBar/Raya36
Battle Mage
TheThirteenthJT

Looker

JamSV


Post-claim:
Raya36
Battle Mage

Looker

JamSV

TheThirteenthJT
ClarkBar

[72offsuit]

C'mon board the BM train, 72. There is no price of admission and the seats are cushy. Choo-choo!

VOTE: BM

choo choo!

[72offsuit]

SEVEN DEUCE OFFSUIT'S UVC:

Looker (1): JamSV
Battle Mage (2): ClarkBar, 72offsuit
Raya (2): TheThirteenthJT, Looker
Not Voting (2): Battle Mage, Raya36

Deadline is in 3 days, 12 hours, 57 minutes, at which point we will default to no elimination.

As always, please correct me if I'm wrong <3

[72offsuit]

jesus christ. i'm alive and all my suspects are dead

and town

.

initial thoughts: Jam-scum wouldn't have made that weird play yesterday around the Porkens wagon. Too conspicuous and odd for no reason.
Raya's posts at end of day had conviction and didn't leave herself open to a Porkens town-flip. Felt legit.
Must be at least 1 scum on the Porkens wagon because there was no reason not to be, therefore must be TTJT and/or Looker.
need to revisit 72offsuit as i think i basically locktowned him based on pork being scum.

This is one of the most faked read-progressions on a player's slot I have seen to date.

[72offsuit]

in 979 , posts "not quite sure what to make of 72.."

[72offsuit]

I think I'll just kinda do a rundown of players and update my thoughts on them. I'll try and be somewhat brief to avoid a huge wall of text. LL's absolutely insane (he was trolling, right?) play from yesterday makes the wagon against him a little tough to dissect. LL sunk that slot to a point where scum could happily and justifiably sit on that wagon/join the push. That makes things tough, but there are other things to consider in when updating reads.

I agree with this, and can't see any reason why scum wouldn't be on that wagon? unless they were of the mind they could push through another mislynch and keep that one on the backburner, but don't recall anything which looked like a serious counterwagon. It wasn't just LL, in some ways Porkens was worse, doing the same thing as LL did all over again (albeit slightly more discreetly). It was a horrible slot, although I had another one the same in a mini normal which just finished (with me and Raya) - a player who I was "96% sure" was scum from the way they played, flipped town Day 1, but luckily we still won.

Battle Mage:

Things get a little more murky here. Having both of his top scum-reads both flip town isn't without some comedy. Obviously Porkens was a wagon anyone could get on, but the Quick thing never really went over with me. BM accuses me of having my blinkers on, but I never found anything really compelling about scum!Quick. So is BM's push on Quick genuine or an attempt to test the waters for an alternate wagon? Well given the NK of Quick such an effort would have been for nothing. Also, BM NK'ing Quick after he made him an avatar would be pretty rude. Porkens votes BM near the end of D1, and some of his reasoning resonates with me. I have only one completed game, and in that scum came in as a replacement and did a bunch catch-up posts that were essentially fluff that appeared pro-town/high-effort. I think BM's takes are slightly better and he has some real takes, as horribly wrong as they turned out. Anyways, we get to D2. I appreciate that my posts and questions early on may have seemed a little cryptic, they weren't meant to be. I certainly don't think they were scummy. My 959 could certainly have been worded better, but I'm not ducking anything. I guess I'm walking you through 954 right now. Certainly don't think I was being dodgy. All of this is to say that BM's vote on me (a player he has consistently given at least a weak town-read to all game) seems to come out of nowhere and the reasons backing it seem thin. He says he has a theory he wants to test. I had a guess as to what that might be last night, but on second thought I might be projecting a bit there. Seems so many players have their little tests that seem to go unexplained. It may be connected to 988 and the pressure comment. Pressure to do what? What are asking of me that more pressure will deliver? I think this slot is a null for me for now, but I have some serious apprehension.

Quick was scummy for just cruising through the game, with a lazy tunnel on me, and without really engaging properly. In hindsight it was just lazy and uninterested town, and most of my case was predicated on an LL scum-flip anyway as the most obvious buddy. I won't rehash it unless it's particularly helpful, but I wasn't pushing some weak shizz.
Resent the assertion my comments on the game before I joined were just fluff - they were designed to help me get properly immersed into the game, and to invite discussion and give people an opportunity to challenge and engage with my views on what had happened to date. I've never done it before, but think it is a good thing to do, it's pretty lame when people replace in and basically ignore everything that's happened before. In future, I'd probably do it more succinctly. On my vote on you, it's probably fair that it's come out of nowhere, although you could level that challenge at me basically whatever I do - I mean, I shot my load a bit early on Day 1, and had largely town-blocked everyone else by default. I agree I don't have strong reasons, but don't always need them! I will obviously explain my theory when the time is right.

I'm only interested in lynching one of: Clarkbar, TTJT and 72offsuit today.

This doesn't mean I'm assuming both scum are necessarily in this block, but I don't currently want to push Raya, Looker or Jam today for reasons I will not disclose.

Somehow I have entered his lynch pool after being a townread of his all game.
Not a single post suggesting I am scum.
Case closed.

[72offsuit]

Ye, looker's 1075 is pretty bad.

The vote for raya today, after showing zero interest in raya's wagon yesterday.
There has been nothing from raya of substance today that stands out as being scummy today.

I was pushing raya yesterday, and looker didn;t even comment on any of my points against raya.
Doesn't make sense why looker would not work with me yesterday if he scumreads raya.

I'd probably play zero interest game if i was on BM's scumteam tbh.

[72offsuit]

BM + Looker or raya.

[72offsuit]

I r winnar

[72offsuit]

Lol. At the time of my I r winnar post above, BM was logged on, as per the bottom of the "board index" page, which lists the players currently logged on.

At the time of this post, he is no longer on.

Zero posts after logging in and seeing he has votes on him.

Scum.

[72offsuit]

Still 0 posts suggesting why I'm in your lynch pool.

[72offsuit]

How am I OMGUSing you? Please explain.

[72offsuit]

So I'm not defending BM here because it does look bad. Is his position plausible? Yes. I was actually thinking scum or pr for Clark. The way BM was pushing made me think he was breadcrumbing a PR and wanted to test out Clark's reaction to l-1. So I voted. Anyways I'm trying to think of all possibilities to this but gambits like usually end up in an elimnation and at this point BM just make best to help us town out.

Anyways updated rankings scum to less scummy
BM
72
Raya
Looker
Jamsv
Clark
Also ps clark maybe next time you are cop don't out a town unless 100%needed.

My vote on BM is pending Raya cc.

Also did not like Lookers vote on Raya after pushing Jamsv. Potential last attempt to divert wagon but I actually think it's too obvious for it to be really the case. If BM flips town Looker is scum and we go Looker 72. Maybe Raya.

I'm going to put more combos now that we confirm no masons. I suggest we all do this now to make a potential Elo easier.

Why am I second scummiest on your reads list? Which posts of mine do you find to be scum-indicative?

[72offsuit]

• Clark calling me "hostile" is a bit exaggerative.
  
• What's "ART"?
  
• Bearing on nothing? How can my response to someone not have any bearing on the topic? These approaches are confusing me.
  
• It made no sense to flip Raya yesterday when my suspects were Porkens and JamSV.
  • Scum are JamSV and Raya

Hasn't even read the thread regarding his own slot. lol.

[72offsuit]

Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's "invalid reasoning"

Just because you like it doesn't make it valid reasoning either.
All he has to do is explain his read list and %s, that is all we've been asking for. He's refusing to answer them or being ignorant, both of which don't help town and can't be seen as NAI because of just how many times its been ignored. It's also not a matter of liking it or not. Its objectively invalid reasoning. I've looked over your games, all you do is post single sentences with little impact to fly under the radar, regardless of alignment. That's just an example of how going based off of previous games and meta is invalid. Regardless of that one again, town Dunnstral surely should be wanting an explanation from Looker. The more information town has, the better, you're just providing him excuses and reasons not to explain his % read list. Stop.

Why ask him to stop? Just vote and kick him.

[72offsuit]

How am I OMGUSing you? Please explain.

I'm certain you don't actually need me to explain this, but Clark hasn't come back to me yet, so I'll bite.

Your vote on me appears to be because you're skeptical of my suspicion on you. Certainly, the crux of it seems to be about my response to you on Day 2, which is slightly anti-climactic after your comprehensive ISO analysis of me earlier. The reality is that I haven't been that suspicious of you at all (not sure if that's a good or bad thing) and you ended up in my possible-lynchbloc by default because of POE (ruled out who I thought were masons, and Looker largely as a policy play). I've been perfectly candid about that throughout.

Have I misunderstood your rationale here?

I did a whole ISO on you, where I concluded you wre null leaning scum
Since then you ahve scummed it up.
And now you say I';m OMGUSing you. lol.
Total garbage.

More votes on BM needed.

[72offsuit]

Lol. At the time of my I r winnar post above, BM was logged on, as per the bottom of the "board index" page, which lists the players currently logged on.

At the time of this post, he is no longer on.

Zero posts after logging in and seeing he has votes on him.

Scum.

seriously?? I was responding in detail to a post as above.

And in any case, I'm V/LA (i.e. I may have time to see something and not respond because I'm busy).

I'm done for today if this is the kinda crap I'm contending with.

No. Your name DISAPPEARED OFF THE LOGGED IN PLAYERS list,
BEFORE you posted.

As if you realised you had logged in without hiding status, so logged out and then relogged in.
Scummy +++

[72offsuit]

It's going to be hard to defend myself when nobody can articulate why I'm mafia in the first place

It's not rocket science. Did you not read my posts regarding raya?

[72offsuit]

Spoiler:

UNVOTE:
I don't want a quick hammer. L-2 is plenty for pressure. Scumlean on Lucky for not removing his vote. Could be hoping for that quickhammer

LAMIST. Scumlean on Lucky for not removing his vote... lol. Feels like a forced post.

-0.5 Gangrenous Limb

Lucky and blopp. Maybe Clark but I'm unsure

Where's your vote then?

My vote is "on" Blopp I just don't want him at L-1

Perhaps it is a coincidence, but since being wagoned, Blopp has removed their profile pic. That means they have been onsite and decided not to post. So now we have her ignoring the initial wagon that I started with 72o, despite posting after it began and ignoring my case. In addition, we have her logging on to remove her profile pic and still not posting. Feels a lot like giving up to me.

This is a bad case and very reachy.

Also can you all look back at my two questions (rqs) I asked. I really want to know the answer for the first one.

I'll do this in my next post.

UNVOTE:
I don't want a quick hammer. L-2 is plenty for pressure. Scumlean on Lucky for not removing his vote. Could be hoping for that quickhammer

Is he your only scumlean or do you have more?

Lucky and blopp. Maybe Clark but I'm unsure

"I scumlean Lucky for possibly wanting a quick hammer on my other scumlean."

For the record, I'm expecting Blopp not to post again until the slot is replaced, and if the slot claims VT I will be pushing for the slot to be eliminated.

Just because I scumlean him doesnt mean I'm right (I never take associations into account D1. I often have multiple scumread that don't work together). And its perfectly viable to be concerned about someone not removing their vote at L-1 when Blopp hasn't even talked yet.

Actually since I can't vote Blopp right now VOTE: Lucky. I think this is more likely anyway. Your stats case also was reachy and the whole basis of your scumread isn't concrete. I would accept your case if and only if it was supporting evidence of a much stronger and more viable case.

It's page 4. What sort of case are you expecting?

UNVOTE: 72
VOTE: Blopp

Why the change of vote?
Same question for 72

23 - dat smiley face --- bad overly friendly/buddy-buddy vibe.
LAMIST - "Lets move out of RVS" with 0 game-related content

Have your thoughts on Blopp changed at all?

No. Why do you ask?

Why are you asking me for a read on lucky in the middle of your reads list?

I like to ask questions on players I'm unsure of. Sometimes I stick it in my readslist. My readslists are mostly just reference for myself. Could you answer please?

Isn't it Scummy for 72 to ask that?

How so?

Why aks that? Never heard or seen that it is or should be Scummy to ask a question in the middle of a readslist. Like, it's totally something I can see Scum asking to try and look like they are Scum hunting, but not something I can really see Town asking that thinking, "Hmm, seems pretty out of the ordinary you ask a question mid RL. I bet if I ask them why they did that they couldn't come up with an answer if they are Scum." Yeah, not really seeing that coming from Town. Unless 72 has a gob of experience, but even then there are way better things to talk about than something that doesn't really seem Scummy inherently. 72's follow up doesn't really look good either.

72 has seemed evasive. But I'm not sure what to make of that

Can you post specifically in which posts I was evasive?

Lucky and blopp. Maybe Clark but I'm unsure

Where's your vote then?

My vote is "on" Blopp I just don't want him at L-1

Perhaps it is a coincidence, but since being wagoned, Blopp has removed their profile pic. That means they have been onsite and decided not to post. So now we have her ignoring the initial wagon that I started with 72o, despite posting after it began and ignoring my case. In addition, we have her logging on to remove her profile pic and still not posting. Feels a lot like giving up to me.

This is a bad case and very reachy.

Also can you all look back at my two questions (rqs) I asked. I really want to know the answer for the first one.

I'll do this in my next post.

UNVOTE:
I don't want a quick hammer. L-2 is plenty for pressure. Scumlean on Lucky for not removing his vote. Could be hoping for that quickhammer

Is he your only scumlean or do you have more?

Lucky and blopp. Maybe Clark but I'm unsure

"I scumlean Lucky for possibly wanting a quick hammer on my other scumlean."

For the record, I'm expecting Blopp not to post again until the slot is replaced, and if the slot claims VT I will be pushing for the slot to be eliminated.

Just because I scumlean him doesnt mean I'm right (I never take associations into account D1. I often have multiple scumread that don't work together). And its perfectly viable to be concerned about someone not removing their vote at L-1 when Blopp hasn't even talked yet.

Actually since I can't vote Blopp right now VOTE: Lucky. I think this is more likely anyway. Your stats case also was reachy and the whole basis of your scumread isn't concrete. I would accept your case if and only if it was supporting evidence of a much stronger and more viable case.

Isn't most Day 1 early cases reachy? I really hate this argument
Also I see you join The Luciano wagon after I printed you to vote and someone else joined before you. I don't like this. I could argue myself that your case on him is reachy but again my case is reachy here no? Finally your case is more repreat what was already aid to give you a reason to join the wagon. While not Al we always scum indicative it's a good start.

Once I catch up my read here I will chiose where my vote goes but you are definitely setting off alarms.

Most cases D1 are reachy but Lucky's case on Blopp is beyond reachy. I mean look at the case I just posted and tell me how that's a good case. And another concern is usually reachy D1 cases are used to create more discussion (mainly from the player being cased) so we can later get better reads and make better cases. But in this case Blopp isn't here to talk and Lucky keeps pushing her. Lucky isn't playing to get more info. Lucky is playing to get a lynch.

I will respond to your readlist post next. I NEED to respond to this first. Is case on Blopp was from what 2 pages worth of posts? Wouldn't that have to be reachy? Do I agree it's a good case? Weird yes but not really screaming confirmed scum for me and thus my vote is not on Blopp. For an elimation to be made 5 players have to agree it's a good enough case to do so. If an elimation were to occur based on that it would be so telling for the rest of the game. Making a case on a player might not get info on the player ryou are pushing but can give Intel on other players in the wagon. Why did they join the wagon? Did they explain themselves well. If it was bad reasoning, what purpose did they have joining that wagon? Miselimnatiin or bad play? So much can be told by these situations.

Overall it has provided discussion to a slow early game and thus has actually been a very beneficial wagon.

I agree with this but it would be much more beneficial to push a player that's active. You would get much more info from that. And also I don't like how Lucky seems to have 0 interest in Blopp being replaced. He just wants Blopp lynched and doesn't appear to care about whether or not Blopp actually is scum or care about getting more info that could help make that decision.

What gives you the impression LL "just wants Blopa lynched"?

Spoiler:

Raya, your positioning WRT Blopp is odd. I was okay with the sheep vote in 39 because you seemed genuinely interested in the case. Somewhere down the line the same case you found worth pushing you have decided is worth scumreading for having been pushed. 45 is odd in retrospect. You say that you won't move your vote from Blopp to Clark because you want to hear from Blopp, but you also concede that we're not going to get info out of Blopp's responses anymore because Clark addressed my case for her (47). If Blopp has had an out provided to her already, what's the point of keeping your vote on her?

Nice attempt at discrediting me. Not gonna work. I was interested in the case but when Blopp went MIA and no replacement was coming in the near future AND he got to L-1 I saw that the scumminess actually came from within the wagon. I did join the wagon to see what came of it just like I said and what came of it was I found out you're scum. As for Blopp having an out, taking my vote off was going to give much less info and I talked to Clark without using my vote and got responses that lead me to believe he is town. I did not abandon what I said about Clark and also did not abandon the wagon on Blopp at the same time. The point of keeping my vote is because the vote wasn't just to get a response to what you said. It was also for the reaction to a wagon.

67 is also really weird. Why is there a scumlean on me for not removing my vote on someone that I scumread and not a scumlean on the player who replaced in, put Blopp at E-1, and invited a quickhammer? It feels like Raya's setting up to push me later for this and doesn't feel at all like a genuine read. In 106 you call a 2-line post that I prefaced with "Perhaps it is a coincidence" in 63, "Bad and reachy." Why did you consider my speculation a case at the time? What sort of content did you expect 63 posts into the game that would push the game forward while not being, to some degree, "bad and reachy"? Further, in 67, you scumleaned me for not unvoting but said nothing about 63. Further, you keep calling my push reachy. What about being reachy is scummy? Do you believe that my goal D1 as town is to find an elimination target that has an >Random chance of being scum? Even if my stance on Blopp is reachy, do you not believe that it represents scum equity in the Blopp slot that is >Random? You yourself have continually scumread Blopp

the entire game

while simultaneously pushing me for scumreading her. Why do

you

scumread her? Your initial vote on the slot was a sheep vote, which you yourself admitted was only cast to "see where this goes." Blopp never responded, therefore it never went anywhere, yet you progressed into constantly calling her slot scummy while illustrating none of that progression publicly. And despite you insisting that I'm pushing a mislynch, you hold that you think her slot is scummy.

The difference is Jam was open and clearly stated it was L-1 and their intents etc. You came back and were quiet about it. I really don't see scum coming in, putting someone at L-1 and then inviting the mislynch. Maybe case wasn't the best word choice but I do consider anything with multiple reasons to scumread someone a case. You're nitpicking on wording. There's early game bad and reachy and then there's just bad and reachy and yours was bad. I don't see a town thought process, I see scum trying to make something up out of nothing. I don't see the problem with not saying anything about 63 then.. Reachy is scummy because scum are trying to make scumreads when they are informed and know they're scumreading town. That means they need to make up reasons for why that person is scum which can lead to reachiness. Yes I believe that's your goal as town. I no longer scumread Blopp. Thought I made that clear, sorry. Reactions from Blopp didn't go anywhere no, but the wagon is telling as well.

Why did you ask 72o if his thoughts of Blopp had changed at all in 148 when Blopp has been MIA since his initial vote? Why would his thoughts have changed, and why did you have a special interest in hearing his thoughts on the Blopp slot rather than others, like the slot you have been pushing: me? Your stance on Blopp honestly feels like you tried to distance early and are not awkwardly trying to defend her (anyone else hear the distant revving of a chainsaw) while maintaining your early, unexplained scumread on her to appear consistent. In 181 you have decided that the

only

reason Blopp is scummy is lack of content. This seems to be a deterioration in your read on her since your earlier scumlean on her 67. What reason did you have to scumlean Blopp in 67, and why did it disappear by 181. She hadn't been gone for long enough for lack of content to be a reason to scumlean her, and it was early enough in the game that other slots had just as little or less content. So please, educate me on your thought process here.

I forgot Blopp hadn't posted since then. His post was early game and I never referred back to see when Blopp's last post was. How is that even scummy...

But I'm not maintaining my scumread on her. I seriously think she's a mislynch and I said that you're pushing a mislynch several times which clearly means I'm townreading her. Keep in mind when reading my 181 that it was written during a reread. And in my reread I decided that you're likely scum and Blopp is town.

Let's move on to 182. You say that my case is scummy because I'm pushing a spot that isn't around to respond, but my case is premised on

why

that slot isn't around to respond. Do you believe it is possible that I believe in my reads? If so, why is my push scummy? Do you stop pushing a scumread because they leave the game or choose not to respond? Later on your argument against me more clearly becomes that you believe I'm pushing a miskick (218). How do you differentiate town pushing town from scum pushing town? What about my push on Blopp indicates that it is a push I would make as scum but wouldn't make as town? If you are still holding Blopp as scummy, how can my push so obviously be a miskick? I can only clearly be pushing a miskick if I'm pushing an obvtown slot, no? Please explain to me how you know I'm pushing a miskick on a slot you scumread.

Your push is scummy because you seem to want it lynched regardless of whether there is or is not a replacement. And your whole case is on the premise that they're not here but you're not considering the MANY other possible reasons for that and you're ignoring me when I ask you about them. I've already explained many times why your push seems like scum pushing town and not town pushing town. (bad case, reachy, not caring about the replacement, stated you'd want to lynch if the replacement claims VT, not considering other possibilities for being MIA, pushing someone who currently doesn't have a voice, etc)

On to 228. The first thing you do is appeal to authority with Homura. That's laughable because I have more experience than Homura, so if you are using experience as a reason to accept or deny my push, you should be taking my side. Moreover, it's not that I haven't considered other possibilities for Blopp flaking. It's that among all possible explanations, I believe that the explanations leading to scum!Blopp hold more equity than those leading to town!Blopp. I think the deletion of her avatar answers back

many, if not all

of the NAI explanations for her flaking, and when left with only scumAI and townAI explanations for a newbie dipping after getting immediate pressure from multiple players in response to a post they made, my experience leads me to believe that there are far more prevalent scumAI explanations than townAI. Further, you say in the same post that you don't find Blopp's behavior particularly AI. Again, explain to me your earlier scumread on Blopp if her behavior suddenly isn't AI.

You don't have experience in Newbie games on this site though. Your experience can not be compared in this context. Explain to me why Blopp couldn't have just came in, deleted her avatar with intent to get a new one, then just never did and siteflaked. Tell me why Blopp couldn't have just decided they want nothing to do with this site regardless of alignment and deleted their avatar and siteflaked. This is why I don't find it AI. You're telling me this player should be lynched regardless of what the replacement says (if they claim VT) when all you have is a flimsy case with several counter-arguments.

A particular line I feel warrants a response,

So basically what you're saying in that second line is unless Blopp slot is a power role you won't consider anything the replacement has to say and won't reconsider your read.

Yeah. That's pretty much what I'm saying. The goal D1 is always to find a slot that has a >Rand chance of being scum and voting there. The goal D1 is not to solve the game. If a slot with high scum equity claims VT, you eliminate them. You don't go searching through slots with lesser scum equity and get more claims, either outing a TPR or further limiting the pool of TPR for scum to choose from for their NK. It's called best practical play.

I do agree that once a player claims VT it's probably for the best to lynch them unless they suddenly become very obvtown, however your wording is making me think that even before the replacement claims anything you won't care about what they have to say. They'll only claim once they get to L-1 with intent, so what if that never happens?

I'm not 100% convinced Blopp is town. I just don't trust your case on her and I don't believe it to be a good case with good intentions. The more I believe you're pushing for a mislynch the more I believe Blopp is town though. And yes Blopp flipping town does give info but why should I push for a flip on Blopp when I'm sure you're scum pushing for a mislynch on Blopp.

Either you think I'm scum pushing for a miskick or you don't. If you are so convinced that I'm scum pushing for a miskick, why would you say that you are not 100% convinced Blopp is town. Even if it is a true statement, what compelled you to throw it out there. It feels a lot like building a safety net for Blopp being kicked, either today, or tomorrow if I were to be kicked today. At some point that slot

will

flip, and when it does you need to have already saved face, and this is part of you trying to do that.

Because I don't 100% know you're scum. I just really really think you are. If you're not then I wouldn't be 100% convinced Blopp is town. My basis for Blopp being town is you being scum and I don't do D1 associations during D1.

Also, anyone who doesn't read this as scum is a joke of a player,

If you're so happy with flipping town and you're actually town why not let us flip you. We'll get more info from that than Blopp's flip.

Just saying that it's inconsistent to be willing to flip town for info but be unwilling to flip yourself when that would give us even more info.

See bolded part ^
The "I forgot" line. It's scummy because this sort of play doesn't come from a town mindset. From what I gather Raya's scumread on LL appears to primarily revolve around his vote on Blopa. Town in general is more balanced and open to re-evaluate their reads as town does NOT know alignments. I think !TownRaya here, would focus more on Blopa's posting (or lack of), to follow-up on the veracity of their reads.

Thus, I think the "forgetting" that Blopa hasn;t posted since, as Raya has said here in 354
AND
Raya's questioning myself on the progress of my read on Blopa in [post]148[/post] , speaks volumes.


Need more votes on the Raya elimination locomotion.
Choo choo choo
Hop on board the Raya express, no ticket required to ride this train!

If I'm not mistaking, that's 4 votes. I have a TPR. Let's move on.

Not sure if this was discussed yet but if you have a tpr you need to claim the exact role. That's why we have a matrix setup. So we can confirm/deny it was a cc

No....

Noone has claimed intent to hammer. Why would we get an exact role claim?

I went back to analyze the Blopp flake and it's so bizarre. I can see newbie players leaving for a bit and returning to see 4 votes on then as a bit overwhelming but I felt the pressure up to the point they removed their avatar was not that high. I've seen (and done so myself) people drilled early game as newbies which would cause enough frustration for a rage quit. This early wagon was rather tame. But at the same time why return at all to remove your avatar? Clearly no intention of returning and thus rage quit possibility over just not returning/forgetting about the site.

So here's the final scenario I have in my head. Blopp comes back because they remember they are in a mafia game, see 4 votes on them, says screw this, removes avatar and leaves forever.

Ok but this same reaction can come from town too.. It's not scum indicative.. It's NAI

And thus why I didn't join the Blopp wagon. I was giving the benefit of the doubt but at the same time understanding why someone would push it. I felt I had bigger fish to fry over the Blopp and Luciano case and had said I wouldn't really weigh in and focus elsewhere until a replacement came in.

Similarly now that BM has replaced in I want to see were Luciano goes from there.

This is good and town thinking. Scum would likely choose a side I think even just lightly.

Another scummy post from Raya.

Why is BM's post "good and town thinking"?

Scum 101 tactic is to hedge bets, fence-sit and to simply wait and see where the chips fall, to see what vote is most advatageous for scumagenda, before making their play with more information available. Just like sitting on the button in poker - Last player to act has more information to make their move.

Another scummy post from Raya.

Why is BM's post "good and town thinking"?

Good question, and I'll admit I'm confused about the confusion...

Scum 101 tactic is to hedge bets, fence-sit and to simply wait and see where the chips fall, to see what vote is most advatageous for scumagenda, before making their play with more information available. Just like sitting on the button in poker - Last player to act has more information to make their move.

I can dig the "scum 101" thing. How do you square that with how Raya has been playing? She has been virtually solely focused on LL, and has given generous town-reads. That doesn't sound to me like a player who is fence-sitting or simply waiting for things to fall into place.

No. I never said Raya was fence sitting.

I am saying TTJT's stance on Blopp (as stated by TTJT himself in post 369 if anything, was fence-sitting and I dont see it as a reason to townread TTJT, as raya does.

What I'm saying is I disagree with Raya's post 397 where he TRs TTJT.

I think my whole case and how reactionary Lucky acted in response is enough on its own

I don't believe the claim at all. Scum ALWAYS claims a PR in this situation. So why are we just blindly trusting Lucky's PR claim when we don't even know the specific role and can just get by without a counterclaim

Who is the "we" that you refer to in this post?

It feels to me like his wagon got run up, he doesnt want town wasting town focussing on him, and doesnt care all that much about this game, so isnt that fussed about being night-killed.

I don't know where you're getting the don't care about the game vibe because those wall posts about me seemed like caring

Why are you disputing what I said when it's obvious my read on him was correct. He is replacing out is he not?
So unless you think I am EXACTLY scum-teamed-with-LL, why question my read?

I think my whole case and how reactionary Lucky acted in response is enough on its own

I don't believe the claim at all. Scum ALWAYS claims a PR in this situation. So why are we just blindly trusting Lucky's PR claim when we don't even know the specific role and can just get by without a counterclaim

Who is the "we" that you refer to in this post?

We as in town in general

I'd like you to be more specific. WHICH particular players in particular werer you referring to?

Raya's 428 is the scummiest post in this game. Please everyone take the time to follow this exchange.

Not only does he include himself in the "we" of town, which is independently scummy, but more importantly,

also does not specifically refer to the specific players that stated believed LL's claim was genuine.

72, did you read my summation of my feelings about you? Why were you on a wagon for a player and then later say the wagon was garbage? I need more from you regarding your read on Raya. Why do you consistently apologize for LL? Seems to me you find LL to be totally town, so how can you simultaneously dislike the Blopp wagon and yet find BM scummy and the LL slot town?

What prompted you to ask this question?

Because you've stated your disdain for the Blopp wagon despite being briefly on it and dismissing criticisms of its primary architect. BM is in that slot now, and BM is scummy to you. What impact does this have for you in terms of the Blopp wagon?


428 is the scummiest post of the game? Do tell! I'm a big dummy and can miss the obvious.

No i didn;t recall any particular summation or any outstanding questions. Please post the post number. It's hard enough following the thread without links or a number. If its something you really want answered or responded to, the easier you make it, the more likely someone will do it.

It's the scummiest post, because not many people have actually come out and said they believed LL's claim was real, despite raya saying
"So why are we just blindly trusting Lucky's PR claim"

Why didn;t raya just direct that towards me?
It gives me the impresssion raya knows I;m town and has extrapolated my view onto "town" in general.






The fact raya disappeared, after I challenged her, is pretty telling in its own right.

Im eliminating between raya and clark today

Here is why raya/you are scum

[72offsuit]

Everything should be spoilered, except for that last line.

[72offsuit]

I'm still more convinced: Re: raya/dunnstral over BM, but if most of everyone prefers BM thats fine.

[72offsuit]

Somebody is bussing somebody.

Who gives two shits if scum are bussing.
If thats the case, let them.

Step 1 is to lynch the first scum.

Dunnstral is pretty obvious at this stage. Just totally ignoring my case against his slot.

[72offsuit]

VOTE: Dunnstral

[72offsuit]

Lame.

[72offsuit]

VOTE: BM

All aboard the BM wagon!

Choo choo

[72offsuit]

Will catch up tonight.

[72offsuit]

VOTE: BM

All aboard the BM wagon!

Choo choo

The issue when its 3v2 of voting at all, is it actually allows potential for both scum partners to hop on and quick hammer. So I don't know how to take what 72 just did.

AKA. Did 72 just hit a scum slot as town or is 72 scum? It isn't town hitting town as scum would win.

I don't have lots of time tonight. 72o pulled a similar move on me in our only other game which went to LyLo (where we were both town and subsequently lost), so it's not completely certain he's scum. That being said, he hasn't actually given any reason for voting me, so I don't think there's any prospect of persuading him otherwise, and it makes my decision a no-brainer!

VOTE: 72offsuit

I think it's highly likely he's scum anyway given the quickhammer on Dunnstral yesterday before I had a chance to check my meta on him, which also prevented TTJT (who is now 100% conftown) from protecting the cop. And the early vote on me, also without discussion, which would throw the game for himself if he was town.

Hard to see why 72o-town would suddenly not care about analysis/discussion, when previously he has been very thoughtful and detailed in his efforts - easily the most I've ever seen him try. Which is NAI in itself, but the lack of consistency seems more like scum who has open-wolfed and taken one for the team, as opposed to town who spontaneously decided they don't care anymore. And #1189?

It then becomes a question of whether it's 72o-Looker or 72o-Jam. Would welcome TTJT's thoughts on that in particular.

I haven't given any reason. Laughable.
You logging in and then logging out and loggin back in as hidden status is obvscum.
Its a lame mechanical tell, but is pretty much 100%. He didn;t even deny it.

This is such a horrible argument.
I am scum because I hammered before TTJT stated he needed more time - i.e because I didnt mind read TTJT. Keep digging your hole.

I don't care about discussion?

LOL!

I have a strong read that you are scum. And since the game isnt over, I;m right. I'm putting my money where my mouth is. Thanks to my vote, we have narrowed down the potential scumteams.

[72offsuit]

I'll be courteous though and let them respond and try to persuade me otherwise.

72o-scum for reasons above, plus his paranoia about me suspecting him yesterday when I didn't, and failure to provide an argument for voting me (despite being cogniscent of all the reasons I'm town), beyond a proven-false claim about me lurking.

Also voting patterns indicate 72o-scum more than BM-scum.

Day 1 final wagon was pretty much unanimous, and so 72o didn't need to be on it to get the mislynch. Yesterday wagon was definitely not unanimous and harder for scum to fashion a mislynch, and 72o was on it and hammered before discussion could finish, and despite very clearly trying to set me up as the other mislynch required for scum-win. He only quick-hammered when momentum against me had diminished.

No town player ever says this.
Think about it. for 2 seconds. Please.

[72offsuit]

There's something important to note. At the moment, TTJT is conf town. Unless if Looker wants to pop up and counter claim. Taking this into account, there are some things to realise. There are 6 scum teams in a vacuum.
72offsuit + BattleMage
72offsuit + JamSV
72offsuit + Looker
BattleMage + JamSV
BattleMage + Looker
JamSV + Looker

There are a handful we can eliminate with logic.
JamSV + Looker isn't the scum team. We could have swooped in on 72offsuit's vote on BattleMage, or BattleMage's vote on 72offsuit and won the game, by both of us voting for the same person, taking it to 3 votes, then winning by having an equivalent number of town + scum. This didn't happen, so we can rule out that potential scum team. Similarly, 72offsuit + BattleMage aren't the scum team. They would have hammered Looker after I voted for him, unless if they haven't gotten around to it yet, but I'm more of an optimistic person. That strikes off another potential scum team.
This means, no matter what, one of 72/BM are scum, and me or Looker are scum. As such. I'm willing to go down the lines of Looker himself:
Hammer priorities:

• Looker - 100%
• 72offsuit - 0%
• BattleMage - 0%
• TTJT - negative 100%

I'm not voting for anybody but Looker today, I'm going to disregard everything else anybody says to do with moving my vote. Before taking into account quality and town-iness of both of our plays in D2 (+ D1 for myself), this game comes down to two 1v1s, Looker vs myself, BattleMage vs 72offsuit, so of course, its only natural that I wouldn't move my vote. We then look at post quality during D2. Out of me and Looker, who was trying to get more information? Myself. Who was hiding information and their explanations of their reads? Looker. That's the very quick, I'm on the toilet posting this, explanation of both mine and his playing during D2. Common sense says Looker will now end up voting me, fair enough. I therefore encourage TTJT to note vote for either of us until 72offsuit and Battle Mage vote first, to limit bussing.

For what its worth, the likelihood is, Battle Mage is the partner, however I'll wait for TTJT to weigh in as to whether I'm correct or not before D3 occurs.

Finally, the last thing I'm going to say for a little while.

GG. Town wins.

!scumMe leading with a vote makes ZERO sense. !ScumMe proveds town with FREE INFO. It is a literally ----- EV play with a clear.

I'm town, it should be painstakingly obvious.

[72offsuit]

Not 72 and jams BM try again.

Game would be over.

Lol. BM basically claimed scum here. GG. He Brainfarted.

[72offsuit]

This game comes down to 72 and Looker or BM with either looker and jams. I have to do a reread and I'll figure it out. Should have eliminated me last night over Clark in all honesty.

dude i'm town, it's 72-Looker or 72-Jam. either is possible, and it's flippin obvious it's 72o over me. Look at how

both

Looker and Jam are saying it's me over 72 - one of them is definitely scum and lynches me for the win. Mason-swear.

I know it's a tough spot dude, but if you read what I've said carefully you will see it

.

Horrible Appeal to Emotion here.

[72offsuit]

TTJT, consider my leading with a vote, with a clear in play.
The only way this makes sense is if you think I am a super gambit-y player.
I have like 10 games on here.
Look through them, and show me a game where I bus my scum partner or fake-claim as scum, or fake-claim as town.

[72offsuit]

TTJT, just read BM;s progression on my slot.
Consider if you think his progression on my slot is natural or forced.
I think you will see that it is in fact, not natural, because he is scum.

[72offsuit]

Lol. At the time of my I r winnar post above, BM was logged on, as per the bottom of the "board index" page, which lists the players currently logged on.

At the time of this post, he is no longer on.

Zero posts after logging in and seeing he has votes on him.

Scum.

seriously?? I was responding in detail to a post as above.

And in any case, I'm V/LA (i.e. I may have time to see something and not respond because I'm busy).

I'm done for today if this is the kinda crap I'm contending with.

No. Your name DISAPPEARED OFF THE LOGGED IN PLAYERS list,
BEFORE you posted.

As if you realised you had logged in without hiding status, so logged out and then relogged in.
Scummy +++

This is factually untrue and self-evidently untrue given I posted a huge post, seconds after you falsely declared I'd disappeared off the site.

I have no idea about how the "logged in players" list works - if you're being straight, perhaps it doesn't record you as being online anymore if you are 'inactive' which I would have been if just typing? Also I've never hided my login status - and have no idea what you're suggesting my motivation would be to do so, given it's quite obvious I was responding, as I eventually did. This is a ludicrously weak avenue to be pursuing, and stands in stark contrast to your detailed ISO of me earlier where it was pretty obvious I was town, barring some implausible swerve.

If you are inactive, you are still logged in.
Fail. Plus you posted WITHIN 60-120 SECONDS OF MY POST.

[72offsuit]

That's it. End of my case. Please consider all my recent posts. G'nite.

[72offsuit]

That's it. End of my case. Please consider all my recent posts. G'nite.

Are we agreeing it's Looker + BM then? I truly feel much safer about the Looker vote compared to a BM vote. 100% certainty beats anything less than 100%.

?

I know BM is scum.

I think you are town.

I think looker is scum.

Why would i vote for looker over BM?

Unless TTJT wants to kick between the harder looker/jam pair, im kicking BM.

[72offsuit]

That's it. End of my case. Please consider all my recent posts. G'nite.

Are we agreeing it's Looker + BM then? I truly feel much safer about the Looker vote compared to a BM vote. 100% certainty beats anything less than 100%.

Prove to me you are town and vote for BM.

[72offsuit]

Actually jam is probs scum

[72offsuit]

I can only be teamed with jam and looker.

If jam is town, that by definition means i cant be scum with him.
If jam is town he knows looker is scum.

[72offsuit]

Actually scrap that. !town jam doesnt know if bm or i r scum.
From his PoV it could be looker and me.

[72offsuit]

No hammers please. Theres some garbage logic being posted here. Its 1:30 am, im off to sleep.

[72offsuit]

Not 72 and jams BM try again.

Game would be over.

Actually how would the game be over if it was me + jam?

[72offsuit]

@ Mod

Can we please clarify jams post?

My read is that was a really obvious formatting error and he did NOT self vote.

[72offsuit]

Also I want a confirmation from. Town that you won't all hate me if I make the wrong choice lol.

No. We won't. Just
1) talk us through your thoughts before you vote, and 2) Also give your FoS for tomorrow.

[72offsuit]

Jam's interaction with 72o on the last page makes zero sense from town who has mechanically confirmed 72o is scum.

TTJT. Posts like this alone are kick-worthy.

In no world am i confirmedscum from jams PoV.

[72offsuit]

Also I want a confirmation from. Town that you won't all hate me if I make the wrong choice lol.

I won't hate you dude, given my bloody performance this game! But I'll be a bit disappointed in us collectively if we can't get 72 at least. You only need to hit 1 today, and then the pressure is probably on me tomorrow!

Why do you mean by tHis? .

BM is just deliberately trying to muddy the waters.
Just read my pushes on Raya/Dunstraal and Clark and BM, and BM's pushes and consider which do you think they come from a town mindset.

[72offsuit]

Didnt mean to quote anything there. Just wanted to thread reply.

[72offsuit]

Also I want a confirmation from. Town that you won't all hate me if I make the wrong choice lol.

I won't hate you dude, given my bloody performance this game! But I'll be a bit disappointed in us collectively if we can't get 72 at least. You only need to hit 1 today, and then the pressure is probably on me tomorrow!

Why do you mean by tHis? .

you've basically got a 50% chance of hitting scum today to keep the game alive. If you do, you'll be killed tonight because scum are unlikely to risk having the doctor block their kill. in which case, I'll have to nail the final scum tomorrow without you, if we manage to get one today.

Him being doc makes 0 difference. He is an uncced player, therefore A clear. If he was a solo mason he would still b killed.

Further shows BM is not in a town frame of mind

[72offsuit]

Also I want a confirmation from. Town that you won't all hate me if I make the wrong choice lol.

I won't hate you dude, given my bloody performance this game! But I'll be a bit disappointed in us collectively if we can't get 72 at least. You only need to hit 1 today, and then the pressure is probably on me tomorrow!

Why do you mean by tHis? .

you've basically got a 50% chance of hitting scum today to keep the game alive. If you do, you'll be killed tonight because scum are unlikely to risk having the doctor block their kill. in which case, I'll have to nail the final scum tomorrow without you, if we manage to get one today.

Its pretty easy to nail scum when you already know who it is.

[72offsuit]

Alright I am neither confirming or denying. In a scenerrio where I fakeclaimed doctor would it change your views? Obviously mafia knows the truth and town can only believe what I say. Does that make a difference based on reactions to my claim. How would you see looker who was the only one to have openly opposed my claim.

Just make a choice.

I think this game resolves the same way.

Looker's 0 interest makes me further think its looker +bm.

I think if Jams is scum than he has won already, though i think thats unlikely.

If you kick BM, i kick looker tomorrow.

If you kick looker and he flips scum, pretty sure jam kicks BM tomorrow.

If you kick me its game over.

If you kick jam, who knows.

[72offsuit]

Who cares. Im town.

[72offsuit]

I Might as well vote then.

VOTE: Looker

Gg if your scum jam, which u r probs 35 percent of the time.

[72offsuit]

Lets see if it was bm+jam

[72offsuit]

If there is no quick hammer, then ive further narrowed it down

[72offsuit]

If no hammer then looker is 100 percent scum

[72offsuit]

Then jams is clear if no hammer

[72offsuit]

TTJT, how good do u think LL is at reading players?

[72offsuit]

Btw TTJT, the crossvoting is nonsense.
You should just ask for everyone to vote for your decided kick.

[72offsuit]

My mind is still boggling that you think im scum

[72offsuit]

Why?
My vote has narrowed it down