Newbie 2016: Snapdragons (Game Over)

[ClarkBar]

Hey, happy to be here!

VOTE: LuckyLuciano

For all the reasons I've talked about. Plus, if that's not a scummy name I don't know what is.

[ClarkBar]

What a thrilling start!

@Homura, any reason for your vote? Starting a wagon in RVS without reasons doesn't seem so random...

[ClarkBar]

Only counts if you vote for me in a triple-post, not a double-post.

[ClarkBar]

Hmm. Well this is only my second game, and my first one was out of RVS and humming along pretty quickly. So... not sure if there are any other good strategies to break the ice a little.

[ClarkBar]

1. What is your experience in mafia outside of mafiascum?

Some IRL stuff that worked differently than here but the same basic premise.

2. Do you prefer playing as town or scum?

Don't know. I was town my last game. I think I would want to have more experience in hunting and identifying scum before I actually played as scum.

3. What do you think of lynching lurkers?

Depends on what the activity looks like. If somebody is posting

just enough

safe content then I'm happy with pressure on that slot. I would never want that player at L-1 again, that's for sure.

4. What do you think of lynching liars?

Against it. Honesty is not AI. Last game traumatized me on both of those two last questions.

What happened to make the RVS go so quickly in your other game?

The player I put my RV on voted for subsequently voted for themselves and explained how when they are town they appear scummy and vice-versa. His attitude and prolific posting got things going quick.

[ClarkBar]

He's mafia, my vote is no longer random.

Explain?

[ClarkBar]

7 is a slight ping. It's a commonly known tell that true newbies are statistically more likely to start their first post in forum games with a greeting when they roll mafia.

Hmm, ok. So why didn't you vote for me? Or more Homura, who arguably ducked out even harder...

23 is a slightly larger ping. It's LAMIST (Look at me, I'm so town). She's 'trying to move from RVS' by asking Clark what moved their game from RVS without moving the game forward herself. More specifically, she's offering content that at first glance appears to look town but upon closer inspection is not in any way AI because it doesn't offer any real thoughts. That's typically scum.

Yeah, I get what you're saying, but that appears to be way more of a way of moving the conversation than intentional fluff posting. She even threw a wink at the end referencing my post about breaking the ice.

Finally, I don't like how she disappeared after getting 2 votes on her in quick succession. She posted after them, and with the preview feature she has to have seen them. Seems panicky to just dip out like that.

Maybe she didn't take it seriously. I do want to see her respond to your points for herself, I just find your reasons pretty thin.

[ClarkBar]

Not defending Blopp, just responding to your reasons for voting her so you can flesh them out a bit for me. I'm not being a God who can read your mind, so I'm asking you to explain yourself. I think that's fair. I'm happy for Blopp to speak for herself.

Also, apologies if I come off as a little eager. The pace of this game is glacial compared to what I'm used to.

[ClarkBar]

Now let me add two more.

1. Are you a straightforward player or like to do a lot of private analysis?
2. How upset would you be if you are lynched Day 1 from a scale of 1-10? 10 being highly upset.

1. I guess I'm straightforward? I might ask questions for my own reasons, but I'll always share my thinking when placing a vote or when engaging in a debate.

2. Not too upset, maybe a 4? It would really depend on whether or not my Lynch has any worth one way or another.

[ClarkBar]

No reads yet. I was surprised by the certainty from Lucky and wanted to follow up on that. I'm giving my response to Lucky's reasons, not answering for anybody else.

[ClarkBar]

But by giving a response you're making it easier for scum!Blopp to get out of a tough situation by just saying what you said is correct and maybe expanding on it. We get no info anymore unless Blopp decides to say something extremely different from what you said.

A general guideline that's good to follow is to never respond for someone else. It only ruins the potential to gain new info from that player. Especially if what you're responding to is a case, like what you responded to

Ok, that's fair. I guess my instinct is to engage with other players, and the Blopp wagon and the reasons behind it seemed a good way to do that. I do see your point.

[ClarkBar]

JamSV is surely scum, I would bet the game on it.

[ClarkBar]

Permission granted. *waves hand with a flourish*

This game is hereby out of RVS.

[ClarkBar]

Dude, Menalque could swoop in Echovision's slot...I don't want a repeat of that nonsense.

[ClarkBar]

As much as I would like to chime in on Lucky's angle, I guess I'll just keep my big yapper shut.

[ClarkBar]

For the record, I'm expecting Blopp not to post again until the slot is replaced, and if the slot claims VT I will be pushing for the slot to be eliminated.

So I am going to address this after all. As Jam may recall, I can be somewhat of lush and tonight is no exception, but I'll try and keep my thoughts clear.

I do find activity on this site by a player which does not occur in the thread(s) in which they are playing to be scum-indicative. In other words, if you're here doing stuff (on Mafiascum) but not

posting in the game you're in

I find that suspicious. I hate to keep referencing my last game, but it's my only frame of reference. In my last game there was a player whose activity/behavior outside of our game thread was distinctly different than it was inside it. I voted for that player, the wagon got to L-1, and then the player was replaced. That slot ended up being scum.

Which brings up my next point, and I am just thinking out loud here. I think Lucky is correct in pushing this "angle". I think I disagree that a replacement be lynched unless they claim a PR. How can a replacement answer for another player who has barely posted? What information can be gleaned from that Lynch provided it doesn't turn up scum? Just a wagon exam?

I know: "here goes Clarkbar defending Blopp again". I disagree that I ever did, and I'm not doing so now. I like the wagon well enough, I just wonder about the virtue of that last bit regarding lynching a replacement unless there's a PR claim. Since Lucky has made that the condition of a successful claim, couldn't any replacement (even town perhaps) make a PR claim? Thus forcing possible counter-claims?

[ClarkBar]

I've never been a typical D1 elimination target, so I couldn't tell you.

How would you characterize a "typical D1 elimination target"? What makes you different? Would you consider that difference a conscious choice or just your natural style?

[ClarkBar]

Are you actually unironically pushing that angle?

Any questions for anybody yet? Want to place a vote? How do you feel about the current reads? I know you don't like Lucky's "angle", please tell me why!

I want in on that non-RVS action.

UNVOTE: LuckyLuciano

VOTE: Homura

[ClarkBar]

By the way (nobody else is playing so I might as well) @Homura I know that you

technically

voted for Lucky in RVS (no random reason given...cmon! have some fun!) and you

did

ask a question in 64. Despite this, I still don't think you've placed a vote of meaning or asked a question with any follow through all game. I'm curious about that.

[ClarkBar]

Thanks for those responses in 77 Lucky! Shout out to the guy who still manages to post despite a busted keyboard.

[ClarkBar]

@Lucky, would you feel as suspect about other players who are actively on this site and not posting? I mean, I don't know what hand certain people are dealt, but sometimes I look at player posts. Clearly you do too. I'm sure you're positively flush with opinions on this. How AI do you consider it to be active on mafiascum and not posting in a select thread? Should that bluff always be called, or are there exceptions?

[ClarkBar]

I guess Homura is too cool to answer my questions or respond to my vote.

[ClarkBar]

I wonder if it'll be like last game and the bulk of the players are replaced.

[ClarkBar]

I wonder if it'll be like last game and the bulk of the players are replaced.

By the way Clark may I ask for your opinion on 72 and Lucky? Its okay if you're unsure, its still early in Day 1

I'm unsure. I'm enduring a learning curve on this site. I have to learn to separate personality from actual play. Lucky is hard nut to crack. He has a big ego (not an attack, Lucky) and his approach is unique. I guess I'm less interested in Lucky than I am in his wagon, which I'll look at more closely tomorrow.

7 2 off-suit is another matter. No comment yet, I'm a little tired and will post more tomorrow. I didn't like that this game had (in my mind) noteworthy developments that were worth a quick comment, and 72 declined despite being active elsewhere. And I really didn't like that my expertly crafted post referring to 72 and that specific issue went unnoticed. C'mon, how many poker references do I have to throw in?

In general, I'll be much more myself tomorrow. Had a bit of a shit day.

[ClarkBar]

I'm here! So sorry! Let me catch up.

[ClarkBar]

I have to make the same apology I made elsewhere. It was a really insane weekend, if I had any idea what was coming I would have placed a V/LA. I'm reading and I'll have something to contribute shortly.

[ClarkBar]

7 pages since I entered the game at 3 days. It's been 3 days over 4th of July weekend and we doubled our post count. Pretty sure that's a win for me.

NGL, as a brit, I completely forgot about the 4th of July being a thing. That actually explains so much about why the games I'm in are dead quiet

It was a big factor in my absence.

[ClarkBar]

Hi BM!

Again I want to say how sorry I am for letting myself almost get replaced. I was whiny in the beginning of the game about the slow place, and so of course it would be me to then contribute to the problem. I work on weekends, and with the holiday and some other life stuff I got completely wrecked. I do virtually nothing during the week, so my posting will be a lot more consistent.

I'll say this regarding much of what I've read in the last few pages: I am not going to go read a past game to see how players behaved in it. I have said (and still believe) that behavior/activity levels being different in one game to another is something I think is noteworthy and could be AI. So I'm not dismissing that as a reasonable motive to vote for somebody. But, unless something very clear is brought to my attention then I don't think I'm going to hop on a wagon because of meta.

I don't have a problem with LL's reasoning for voting Blopp even if it is kind of a reach. I can follow the reasoning and don't necessarily disagree. I do fear quick hammers, but that fear shouldn't stop a player from having some L-1 pressure. I also buy LL's claim for now. I feel uncomfortable giving town-reads, but LL is a town lean for me.

My vote on Homura stands and I guess we'll see if there is a replacement or if Homura returns. Obviously I can't point any fingers regarding activity levels, but it's the lack of trying to engage other players in a meaningful way that bothers me. Half-heartedly sharing opinions and having only one vote that was in the RVS and not even a random reason given bugs me.

I'll keep looking at stuff and see if I can't get some questions goings. I'm also happy to answer any questions, in fact that might help me in figuring out my own feelings on some things.

[ClarkBar]

And I don't like playing with Quick. Nobody gets to be happy this game. Gotta send my WOTC lists to the mod before the game starts from now on I guess.

I'm happy!

@Jam, what's wrong with BM? I don't recall there being any major issue between you two in our last game together? He's an asset to scum as town? Couldn't quite follow what you were saying in 341.

Quick seems fine too, except for maybe some questionable music taste and cases that I'm not sure I totally follow.

[ClarkBar]

^ That's really adorable.

[ClarkBar]

Yes, don't let Blair know but I think you were the best player in Newbie 2013.

I'm not even in the running? Wait, I guess I did lose the game for town.

[ClarkBar]

except for maybe some questionable music taste

Excuse you?

Of course no offense is intended. But there is a difference between noise and

music

.

[ClarkBar]

TheThirteenthJT - Slight townlean. 58 are you suggesting Jam and Clark are partners? What is your read on Clark? I believe your vote is still there.

Yes partially. I was also suggesting that scum are the only ones that truly know everyone's alignment. So Clark is an interesting read for me and would like to expand on this later. He actually failed a test earlier and it looks bad for him but his play has indicated town for me. I will be keeping a good look at him throughout the game but it's currently Not enough for me to keep my vote on him currently.

Are you referring to my joke towards Jam that was a reference to our last game? What other test did I fail? I'm usually keenly aware when I'm failing, but not always. You mention an RQS issue but have been rather cryptic on what that might be...

I guess I'm curious about all this because you haven't really pressed me on any of this or tried to discuss it with me.

[ClarkBar]

So you believe LLs claim but he is only a town lean?

He's a town lean based off his posting. Because of that I'm inclined to believe his claim.

And I agree on your Homura point but it's not strong enough for it to be my leading case. Could you ISo Raya and let me know how you feel about them.

Yes, I will.

This is a for fun question and part of my experimental ways of playing.(I know we are out of rqs and wifom and not aftual scumhunting blah blah blah. Just let me be me.) If you were town who is your scum team at this point, and if you were mafia who would your partner be? Please answer both sides and just have fun with the answers. I don't have any day to back anything up but I have theories so this will help me improve as a player. Anyone else is free to answer this as well.

My fun response to your fun question would be 72 and Homura as scumteam, and my scum partner would be you.

[ClarkBar]

Nice why me?

Because I think that'd be hilarious fun. Also, you'd be doing a nice job of being suspicious of me without actually pressuring me.

[ClarkBar]

Im such a boring partner though. Really thought you'd says Jamsv here. You were so excited he came into the game.

I was happy to see Jam, and I felt a little bad about how our last game ended so I was hoping for a better outcome.

Oh boy this is going to get us elimnated here... Im not doing it on purpose just had nothing to pressure you on with you not being around this past weekend. You came on and I made sure to get on you.

I thought you had stuff to pressure me on? If you don't then I suppose I'd be a pretty big town-read for you... and yeah, I like fun questions but I'm dubious about the value of the ones you posed.

Soon enough someone will either meta me or figure out why you failed the test. But not you since you don't meta people correct?

I can't wait to see what I failed and how. What I'm not really willing to do (unless maybe in a LyLo situation) is go read a whole other completed game thread to compare player meta.

[ClarkBar]

LL is also a lot less wordy as Town. I am assuming this pattern holds based on how I would assume LL would play as Scum given prior experience playing with them. This is not strictly a "meta read" but rather a personality trait narrative read. There's a diff but I don't really feel like explaining rn.

Can't this be manipulated? Plus, doesn't mood affect this? I've posted while I'm a moody bitch, when I'm a happy drunk, or when I'm a little distraught. They're pretty recognizable shifts. I think that's another reason I don't really trust meta or personality swings as very AI.

[ClarkBar]

Raya36 ISO fun! Gonna steal this little format from Umlaut who, I am sure, stole it from somebody else. Be prepared to be wildly underwhelmed!

20 Not too hard to give a random reason for a vote, now is it? Looking at you Homura...

34 An appropriate question.

39 A fine vote for fine reasons. At this point in the game I think the pressure on Blopp is totally acceptable.

44 I did however have some questions/comments about LL's reasons for voting, and in asking those questions I suppose I gave the appearance of defending/speaking for Blopp. I can appreciate the suspicion/irritation that Raya is expressing here.

45, 47, 49 Are all along the same vein. Don't disagree with Raya here.

67 I

suppose

I'm ok with the unvote here. I don't know that E-1 was too risky at that point. Jam is a big fan of pressure, and part of the reason I incorrectly scum-read Jam in our past game was his habit of putting players at E-1 with not much reason given. So this is a mixed bag for me. There is a LAMIST feel to the unvote that I don't entirely care for. What I also dislike is throwing shade at LL for not unvoting. Again, I don't think Blopp at E-1 was that big of a risk there. Furthermore, LL added to his case against Blopp after Jam placed his vote. Why on earth would LL unvote there?

69 Has me, Blopp, and LL on his scum reads. At this point I don't know how Raya is getting scum vibes from LL. Because he didn't unvote the person he suspected was scum when they got to E-1? Why be on the Blopp wagon at all if you're going to get all huffy when it gets to E-1? Why not vote for Jam for placing the E-1 vote in the first place if that was such a concern? Jam doesn't even get a scum read for Raya here. This is pretty peculiar.

106 If you don't want pressure on a player then just don't be on their wagon at all. This is weird. Raya criticizes the Avatar Removal Theory (ART from now on) as a bad case. That's a fine opinion to have in my view, but I also don't think that LL's logic is baseless. But, Raya moves her vote over to Lucky and when doing so criticizes LL's case. Then why was she on the wagon at all? The only thing that changed is that LL threw the ART into his case. Raya won't vote for Blopp because E-1 is unacceptable (still no reference to the player who put Blopp at E-1 btw) but will vote for the person whose vote she shipped earlier. The last paragraph of this post is worth looking at again.

107 A town read on Jam. This just doesn't follow.

108 Nothing much, but apparently I don't understand RQ's as I fail them.

110 That's a fine reason for giving a town-read. But...what about that E-1 vote from Jam that forced her to unvote Blopp? That led her to suspect LL (who she had been sheeping) for not unvoting?

113

147 Many, many players on this site I have encountered have the "cool 500 IQ anime protagonist" vibe. Y'all could use a dash of modesty over here.

148 Fine question.

154, 155 Association stuff. No comment.

181 Got some juicy reads here. Looks like I moved up to possible town, Homura town-lean for agreeing on LL, 13JT just cuz I guess. Another town read for Jam here. Finally mentions the E-1 vote from Jam, but calls it a "bad town play". Again, how is LL scummy for not unvoting a player he believes is scum but Jam is town despite placing the E-1 vote? Raya reiterates how flimsy the case on Blopp is, and criticizes LL for wanting to pursue an execution on that slot regardless of replacement (a position that I've actually somewhat come to agree with).

182 Ok, this is a better argument against LL. I can see the perspective here a little clearer.

185 Ok.

191 Good question.

193 Meta meta meta meta meta meta.

206 Fair enough indeed.

212 I should ISO 72 as well.

214 Well you have BM in that slot now, so good fucking luck not getting information out of that guy.

215 ME TOO!

217 Ok.

218 It'd be nice if people just quoted what they are responding to and not four other posts surrounding it.

225 I haven't hit those post links, but like I said I should look at 72.

226 nothing.

228 Boy does Raya hate the ART. And that's fine I guess. I don't think LL is wrong in his position on it, but whatever. It's also not proof of anything. I like Raya in this post, I believe her.

231,233,234 Everyone is entitled to their own taste I suppose.

354 This is a pretty great post that addresses a lot of the issues I had earlier with Raya. Again, I think that I believe Raya here. My guess is that the debate between LL and Raya may just be some hot town-on-town action. Two different perspectives clashing. Interestingly I find myself in the middle.

358 Something mildly similar happened to me my previous game that I think is affecting how I see LL's POV.

359 LL's tunneling of that slot is a bit much. It'll be quite interesting to see how things shake out now that BM is in the Blopp slot.

Well there it is. Conclusion? I was pretty down on Raya early in this process, but after posts 182,228, and 354 I think I have to give a slight town-read to Raya.

[ClarkBar]

Not sure if this was discussed yet but if you have a tpr you need to claim the exact role. That's why we have a matrix setup. So we can confirm/deny it was a cc

Also, nobody asked for a claim. Is a claim supposed to be automatic at E-1with nobody stating intent to hammer? And why is it more beneficial for town to have the specific role claims than it is for scum? Wouldn't knowing what setup we likely are in help scum more than town? Is counter-claiming D1 considered good play?

[ClarkBar]

Another scummy post from Raya.

Why is BM's post "good and town thinking"?

Good question, and I'll admit I'm confused about the confusion...

Scum 101 tactic is to hedge bets, fence-sit and to simply wait and see where the chips fall, to see what vote is most advatageous for scumagenda, before making their play with more information available. Just like sitting on the button in poker - Last player to act has more information to make their move.

I can dig the "scum 101" thing. How do you square that with how Raya has been playing? She has been virtually solely focused on LL, and has given generous town-reads. That doesn't sound to me like a player who is fence-sitting or simply waiting for things to fall into place.

[ClarkBar]

Hmm what to do with this slot. I don't want to wait for replacement of we aren't going to give them a fair chance. Personally for me I'd say to almost disregard LL plays for whomever replaces in but I know that's not really possible. I want everyone in this wagon to give their opinions on what just happened.

I'll give you my opinion, regardless of the apology at the end of 451 I find the last few posts by LL to be unacceptable. There's a dignified way of doing what LL did, but LL chose to be nasty and childish.

That said, I don't know that I find it all that AI. The fake TPR claim is strange, and potentially disastrous if LL is town and our setup has two masons, but falls in line with the defeatist and trashy behavior LL has demonstrated. His stated reason for doing it is something I find believable given his attitude. Obviously I'd like to hear what his replacement has to say but I don't know that I consider LL's wagon any weaker or stronger than before his embarrassing display.

[ClarkBar]

I need to do some re-reading today. I am looking forward to the input we should be getting by our three(!) new players and hope for interesting discussions and fresh perspectives. I kinda want to do a list of reads for my own benefit as well as to share my thoughts, but that'll be tough to do with replacements. Still, I'll give it a go. It might take me a while, but I'll be actively reading and responding to posts as they come up.

[ClarkBar]

I've been reticent in giving reads because I fear that giving even mild town-reads will influence my own perspective whether I'm conscious of it or not. However I have observed more experienced players do so regularly, so maybe my thinking on that is wrong. Also, this exercise may prove valuable for me. There might be some repetitive stuff here, and sorry for the wall of text. Let me start with where my vote is...

Homura/Looker:

Not a huge fan of not giving a reason, even a random one, for the vote on LL. I don't have an issue with not liking LL's Blopp ART, but there is a bit of a misrepresentation by Homura that LL's push on Blopp comes only from that angle. In my last game I disregarded a player that just posted opinions and was reactive instead of proactive and I got burned by doing so. I saw similar behavior from Homura and wanted to engage with her more. As it turns out she may just not have had any interest in the game whatsoever. There is replacement and I'm eager to hear their thoughts. At the moment there is no good reason for my vote to be where it is.

UNVOTE: Homura/Looker

And in no particular order...

Blopp/Battle Mage:

LL seems to feel that first-time scum will give a greeting in their first post, but I don't know the merit of that argument. Ultimately there are three posts that are pretty much fluff. I think 23 was just an attempt to get conversation going. 29 isn't that exciting to me either, but I may be missing something big about RQS. So now we get to the ART issue. I don't think it's as reachy as some others do, but it also wasn't near enough for me to join the wagon. Now we have Battle Mage in the slot. BM was in my first game and I liked playing with him. So far this game he hasn't contributed much, and I'm a little confused by his last few posts. I have no read on him yet. The slot itself I do look at with some suspicion.

TheThirteenthJT:

Wants an early wagon on me, which is fine. I don't know how anyone would read 52 seriously, but nothing wrong with kicking the tires. Seems to share my opinion on LL's push on Blopp. This is where issues with Raya pop up. 13JT feels that Raya moving her vote onto LL is a result of pressure by him and the reasons are forced. 13JT brings up how it is interesting that Jam put Blopp at E-1 and isn't getting called out for it. I shared this same concern in my ISO of Raya. 13JT continues to criticize Raya's criticism of LL's criticism of Blopp. Again, it appears 13JT and I are on the same page regarding the quality of the case on Blopp. And it's true, that has been the wagon that has generated the most discussion. The thought of a Raya/Homura scum team is welcomed by 13JT and he moves his vote over to Raya. Says I failed a test (for the love of God I can't wait to find out how). 13JT then comes back to the ART and puts more stock into it. This is a little odd to come back to something already discussed and have such a stronger opinion about it, but I can see that happening with rereads. It's likely to happen to me. What is strange is to then say that the Blopp wagon has scum outside of Jam. Not sure I follow this, and I don't follow the distancing accusation made towards Quick and Raya. Kinda agree on policy-lynching players like LL. I think I have a slight-town read on 13JT.

LicketyQuickety:

Seems to come in with some baggage from a previous game. I don't discount meta, but like I've said I'm not going to go read old games unless the circumstances dictate a need to. I don't follow the suspicion on 72 for asking why he was asked for reads. That's a big yawn for me. Goes on to post some "music". Gets into it a little bit with LL, again I'm not going to worry about LL's meta. Especially if Quick is correct and he's actively manipulating his play. I'm sorry, but I'm just not that interested in pursuing a case(s) that are rooted in Newbie 2007. I do agree that claiming a PR does not clear you of suspicion, and if I had the certainty about a player that Quick has about LL I would be totally unimpressed by the claim. And, as it turns out LL was lying. I don't understand the unvote in 291. I don't get the 13JT vote. I thought the avatar for BM was a sweet thing to do, but obviously not AI. I do believe the lack of a grudge/agenda against LL despite how hard she came down on him upon entering the game. Null/town.

JamSV

There is some baggage here. I single-handedly lost my first game for town by hammering Jam. I'm a little more cautious with how I look at him now. He likes to put players at E-1, and doesn't always follow that vote up with any kind of questioning or anything. So the E-1 vote on Blopp was no surprise to me at all. I don't understand his position on quick hammers being unlikely or not being AI considering what went down our last game together. The spat between Jam and LL is interesting, even if I find the statistics stuff goofy. I love 116, and I agree with Jam. Jam predicts a 72/LL scum team, a prediction that I suppose Quick would appreciate. Now that I'm starting to get to know Jam a little better I like it when he gets aggravated. I don't disagree with Jam's take on the ART, I just find it more potentially scummy than he does. I'm not going to take Jam thinking BM was the best player in our last game personally. I'm not. I'm really not. I don't like the speculation on PR's, but I don't find it scummy either. I'm not experienced enough to know the best way to approach a claim like LL made. I think I have to put Jam in my town-bloc for now.

Raya36:

Well I just did an ISO on her, so this will be brief. I totally appreciate 13JT's suspicion. As I've said, the whole thing with LL not unvoting is thin and weird, especially given Jam's E-1 vote going unmentioned. LL seems to think my change of opinion happens "magically", but it's a result of Raya's response to the things that really bothered me. I might be easily swayed, but I believed her reasoning. I do think I gave her too much of a town-read, she's more null for me.

LuckyLuciano:

I don't have an issue with the initial reasons for the vote on Blopp, even if they didn't inspire me much. I don't have an issue with the ART, and I don't have an issue with not unvoting Bopp when put at E-1. I like that despite pressure to let go of the Blopp vote, LL sticks to his guns. I like 239. I don't really care about Newbie 2007. I don't feel that LL is being obtuse about Quick's case on him. That fucking claim though. At this point in the game I didn't have a scum-read on LL so I chose to believe the claim. It did bother me a little that the claim was made when there was no stated intent to hammer, but I just came off a game where quickhammers closed out 2 of the 3 days so I can see why town would do that. But this claim is apparently a lie, and this is where LL's tone really changes. Lying about being a PR while town seems really reckless to me and I don't see the value. So here is where I have to make a choice about how I view this slot. Is it that 1. LL is scum who was trying to push an early misexecute but was too stubborn to back off from pressure, got pouty about the wagon on him, made a false claim to shake off the attention, and then essentially rage quit (which is a bit hypocritical) while throwing shade at the people in the game who were pressuring him OR is that that 2. LL is town who strongly felt that the case on Blopp was solid gold, got frustrated by people disagreeing with his case/logic, is easily butthurt by Quick and Jam, and made the claim to refocus attention elsewhere, and then rage-quit because things weren't going his way? I think I'm going to land on the first option being a little more likely, and that largely is due to the claim. I don't see a town benefit to it as strongly as I see a scum benefit. Furthermore, scum!LL taking back the claim prevents any need to claim a specific role and cleans the slate for his replacement. I will reserve my vote until a replacement comes in, but I don't know how they can really answer for LL. I think I'd be comfortable hammering this slot.

72offsuit:

Agrees with LL on the early Blopp case. If he is a scum buddy with LL then this seems a somewhat bold move. Introduces the RQS as a "great scum hunting tool" but declines to answer the questions. The might be a joke though considering 72 then does answer the questions a little later. Very aloof. People accuse 72 of being evasive, I find him to be more blasé in tone than evasive. Interestingly 72 seems to come around to the idea that the Blopp ART isn't very strong. So why is the vote still there? I don't care about Newbie 2007. Ok, so 72 feels that the Blopp wagon is garbage, and thought his vote was on Raya. I don't like this, maybe I'm not following along well enough. 72 seems to be defending LL's push on Blopp, was a part of that push, then declared it a garbage wagon and moved his vote to a player who was pressuring LL. He gives LL the benefit of the doubt repeatedly, but granted he has somewhat of a history with LL. I don't have enough experience to have a strong stance on when it's appropriate to claim a specific power-role. But, if the LL slot is scum then it does seem to me that scum would rather not have any specific claims made in case they get called out. So, is 72's motive to not have LL claim born out of a desire to not have town speculate on the setup, or as an act of preservation for their scum-partner? That's a tough call for me to make right now. A flip on the LL slot seems to me to be of the greatest value right now.

Sorry if that was sloppily done. If there are any questions, comments, or concerns please share them. I might have missed obvious stuff.

[ClarkBar]

My one concern is that you want to flip LL before seeing who replaces that slot. That's a bit of a concern but not a huge one.

Did I say that? I'm cool with a replacement coming in and getting a chance to put their two cents in. If I didn't care about that I would've just hammered. The reality is though that after organizing my thoughts better it became clear to me that the LL slot is, in my opinion, the best execution available to us. I don't know what a replacement could offer us, but I'm willing to be patient to find out.

Other than that, I think if you keep playing you could be a fine player and have already shown you have the analytical capabilities to be a pretty good Town player even if you are Scum here.

I appreciate that. My analytical capabilities have so far proved disastrous, but sally forth I must.

[ClarkBar]

@Looker: Would I be correct in guessing that your flip percentage preference does not necessarily correlate to town v scum reads?

[ClarkBar]

I’m on mobile right now, so I can’t respond to some stuff. Raya/LL scumteam fascinates me though. They would have done quite a terrific distancing job were that the case...

Also, loving this sweet sweet BM posting. Will continue tomorrow? You just got started! What a tease.

[ClarkBar]

I couldn’t get into Hamilton at all. Though the guy playing King George was fantastic.

[ClarkBar]

Pattern I’ve noticed on this site. If I’m really into it posting goes way down. If I’m completely fucked over a weekend 6 or so pages pop up. I guess at this rate tomorrow will be a banner day for this game.

[ClarkBar]

72, does BM’s posting make you reconsider the Blopp wagon as garbage?

[ClarkBar]

Ever heard of too-good-to-be-true?

Sometimes a good thing is just a good thing.

[ClarkBar]

Ever heard of too-good-to-be-true?

Sometimes a good thing is just a good thing.

Why are you answering what I'm directing at BM?

Because I have an opinion.

[ClarkBar]

72, did you read my summation of my feelings about you? Why were you on a wagon for a player and then later say the wagon was garbage? I need more from you regarding your read on Raya. Why do you consistently apologize for LL? Seems to me you find LL to be totally town, so how can you simultaneously dislike the Blopp wagon and yet find BM scummy and the LL slot town?

What prompted you to ask this question?

Because you've stated your disdain for the Blopp wagon despite being briefly on it and dismissing criticisms of its primary architect. BM is in that slot now, and BM is scummy to you. What impact does this have for you in terms of the Blopp wagon?


428 is the scummiest post of the game? Do tell! I'm a big dummy and can miss the obvious.

[ClarkBar]

Agree. Didn't like his long silence either but that might now be AI. Just felt they could have posted earlier if they wanted.

Why is everyone TRing 13 so hard?

Who is everyone? 13 isn't a town lock for me. Just for me not even in the ballpark for a worthy D1 execution.

BM not flooding this game with posts right off the bat is not AI.

[ClarkBar]

This guy is probably town? Bold pings me though, as the first indication that Clark supports the wagon - previously had been main opponent of it. Not sure of scum motive for that - wanting to stick with crowd? But then why stand out in the first place?

I was never an opponent of the Blopp wagon. It just didn't do it for me enough to hop on, but I understood the reasoning behind it. Me asking LL about his reasoning is not the same as being some white knight for Blopp.

[ClarkBar]

Positive: Regardless if town or scum appreciate the effort in this post. Keeps the game moving.
Negative: Pretty much disagree with half the reads here.

Fair!

1. You say you are confused about BM's posts, but I don;t see you actually clarifying them or any follow-up on your behalf.

It's that there were a few of them that seemed to be weird non-sequiters, but there were no votes or reads in them so I just shrugged. His posting since has been normal.

2. TTJT and I have similar reads but somehow I am scummy and he is town. The read on TTJT and myself doesn;t really match up.

They sure don't! Similar reads in what way?

3. Read on Quick seems reasonable, like it could be from a town-mindset.

Perceptive!

4. "I think I have to put Jam in my town-bloc for now". Pretty much zero discussion about Jam's actual ALIGNMENT, just goes on about why you like Jam, so I still have no idea how you conclude to put him as a town read.

Because I think he's town. Talk to me about why you don't think he is!

5. The ISO on raya just feels really underwhelming, once again I'm not really getting the vibe of alignment sorting, it just feels like Information Instead of Analysis. Furthermore I don;t understand why Raya was chosen as the only player to be ISO'ed.

Because I was asked to! And I'm sorry if it was underwhelming, but I

did

put a disclaimer at the top about that likelihood. Caveat emptor!

6. In my experience recklessness tends to come from town, not scum. Town speak their mind, their goal is simply to poke and prod and try to find scum.
Scum generally are more calculating - they care more about how they are perceived as scum doesn;t want to attract attention to themselves.

I think I've decided to ignore the "in my experience town/scum does..." stuff from here on out. The possible consequences of ignoring the sage advice of more experienced players be damned!

7. I think you can ask everyone here, if they think setup speculation is pro-town or pro-scum.
Once again, I don;t see why you are questioning my vote on Blopp as compared to TTJT.

If you want me to ISO you just ask. No need to beat around the bush!

8. Overall don;t see much here regarding motivation/intent of players. It mostly just feels like a recap of whats occurred in the game.

Ok! But I did claim intent to hammer on a player that I had yet to display any issue with at all. And I insinuated that my read on you (another player I haven't really discussed to that point) was dependent on an LL flip. So I'm sorry you found it a useless exercise, but I sure didn't.

[ClarkBar]

I respect your right to be wrong

Now, before that nasty hammer comes down on my widdle head, in the mean time, ask me a question or two.

I'm probably gonna hammer you in the next couple of hours. I mean, no cookies or demerits or anything for me? Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out.

[ClarkBar]

PS - this part is for Clark. If you didn't like playing with Menalque, I have some bad news for you unfortunately.

Are you referring to Porkens? How many 500 IQ anime protagonist players are there on this site?

[ClarkBar]

Ok in that case since Clark started intent we do need a full proper claim

And it sounded jokey but its not.

[ClarkBar]

Porkens, you are welcome to claim if you'd like. Did you address your predecessor's false claim? What's your opinion on that? Out of curiosity. I was still in the womb when you joined this site, so your insights are like gold to me.

[ClarkBar]

Clark do you subscribe to the idea that shorter days are better for town?

It's all circumstantial of course. It seems logical that the longer a day goes on more information becomes available and better choices are made. On the other hand, if a slot is scummy then ending the day is the best choice. Why let things drag on?

[ClarkBar]

Huh, my math was wrong. No hammer from me I guess.

VOTE: Porkens

[ClarkBar]

In short: don’t rush.

I totally hear what you're saying. You can try to extend the day and get another wagon going, that could be fun to watch. I still want your slot flipped. It would take a lot for that to change.

[ClarkBar]

That’s fine I just want the chance to interact with everyone first.

Totally fair. I know you're biased, but do you think I'm misguided in my thinking? Is my thinking even all that clear?

[ClarkBar]

My wish for your execution (more the slot you're in, you seem fine despite Jam's warnings) is rooted in the read of LL I layed out in 465.

Why did you think I would hammer your slot?

[ClarkBar]

Last question first; I believed you then thought LL was scummy.

Ok THAT post yes I skimmed that one quite liberally.

Can't blame you.

Your scumread of LL was based on his claim and attitude change around that same time. I like how you analyze bot the scum and town motivations and they don’t seem too far off. Let me ask you this about it though:

You said essentially that “As scum or town, LL claimed one order to “Shake off attention.” Can you explain how claiming a PR diverts attention away from oneself?

I'll let LL do the talking...

I fake claimed because once Quick replaced in I realized he was going to hard push my slot continually throughout the game because he has an obsession with me, and wanted to either delay my elimination today and soak up a mafia NK or RB in setup A, or get eliminated anyway and make mafia obvscum in their efforts to push a claimed TPR. I'm pretty sure I've done the latter well enough.

If I'm not mistaking, that's 4 votes. I have a TPR.

Let's move on.

LL sure thought it would. So I have to choose between believing LL's stated reasons for the claim or that the motivation was scummy. I believe he was scum and tried a little gambit out of frustration and realized that he made an awful mistake with the claim and had no good way of getting out of the hole he dug and therefore rage-quit. It matters to me that he didn't claim a specific role or contribute to the discussion of whether or not he should. 72 took care of that for him.

ISO LL and look at the difference in play from before 278 and after and tell me how that's a town slot. Furthermore, even if I'm wrong, no matter how your slot flips it would majorly impact how I see the leading D1 wagons and the players on them. But I don't think I'm wrong.

[ClarkBar]

I’m not going to spend any time or energy trying to defend LL’s play, evaluate his ISO, or trying to make a towncase of it. Like I said

i thought he was scum

. His decisions were his, and they were bad.

I don't expect you to answer for him really. Awkward slot to replace into.

My job here is not to avoid getting hanged. It’s to help the town get information.

And how would you say you've accomplished this since you've replaced in?

Re: your answer. I’m going to be pedantic here and ask you in a different way: in a vacuum, do you think claiming a PR shakes attention away from the claimant?

There's no vacuum for this. Completely situational. Who is claiming, when does the claim happen, is it a soft claim or a specific one, is there a counter-claim, what was the state of the wagon, was there even a wagon, etc. etc.

[ClarkBar]

Let’s go at this in another way. What are your current thoughts on the counterwagons?

How your slot flips will inform a lot of my thinking. I suspect 72 due to his position on LL's dick, where his votes have gone and why, and how he reacted to the claim by LL. Plus his lack of scum hunting. So why am I not voting for 72? Because I'm much less sure about him than you, and if you flip town then I would be forced to really re-evaluate my read on him.

I have a null read on Raya. I iso'd her and stuff, so you can go check that out at your leisure. In short I didn't like her push on LL at first, but she explained her reasoning well enough. LL said my change of heart with Raya occurred "magically" but I gave post links. If you flip scum then she would essentially be a town lock for me. If you flip town than I would look at that early push I didn't like again and follow up more with her.

[ClarkBar]

BM, you're confident that Raya and LL would go through such lengths in order to distance?

[ClarkBar]

I was actually asking about the voters on those wagons rather than the targets of the wagons. Do you have any thoughts on 13/72 wagon on Raya or LQ/P wagon on 72?

Not really. My reads are available. Can't blame anybody for voting 72 at all, you're just the better candidate. People who are scum-reading Raya are making me nervous that I'm being naive about her, but that's something I'll focus more on once (God willing) you're executed.

Nothing personal btw. Jam must be crazy, you seem like a delight!

Okay, right, so, I suspect there is a typo in that last sentence, but, no idea.

No typo, just a little nod to 515 which made me chuckle.

[ClarkBar]

I'd take Clark as my buddy to guarantee his first win as scum, and also so you could be right about me and Clark being scum.

to guarantee his first win as scum

to guarantee his first win

his first win

(Again something is off for me with Clark's vote )

Is it that I was leaning town on LL and now am pushing for the slot to be executed? Do you think my reasoning is weak? I'm happy to talk about this, so if something is troubling you don't be shy.

In general, if you think that I'm wrong on the Pork slot or that I'm not taking things into account that I should be please let me know. I just really believe pork is the right kill.

[ClarkBar]

Page 17 - nearly up to speed, think I will finish off tomorrow.

But you're so close...

[ClarkBar]

I'm going through your ISO currently. But a quick summary of what I'm seeing. It is based on your stance of LL/Porkens as well as your stance on replacement players. You defend LL hard and slowly worked your way to turning on them. But you teased a vote multiple times and it wasn't until you realized you weren't the hammer that you finally jumped on the wagon. Basically it comes down that you wanted any reason to join the wagon but we're too afraid to hammer so shied away.

Yes, my opinion of LL did change, even after the claim. But several opinions of mine changed while rereading for 465 and if more clarity on my thought process is needed I'm happy to oblige.

Did I defend LL hard? I just didn't mind his push on Blopp and thought the ART was not as reachy as some were implying. I turned on him pretty fast actually. What's my stance on replacement players and why is it bad?

And I will tell you, I was excited to be the hammer. I've never done it before, I was going to post a M.C. Hammer "hammer time" gif and everything. But we had people like Looker and BM who were still catching up/giving reactions and so I was being patient. And then it turned out my vote math was wrong. If somebody claims intent I would actually request they let me unvote, then they put Pork at L-1 so I can then hammer.

[ClarkBar]

And I will tell you, I was excited to be the hammer. I've never done it before.

Hold up, that's not true. Sorry Jam!

But this is different than a Lylo where I was pretty unsure of the 50/50 situation I was facing.

[ClarkBar]

You took a stance a few times of wanting to wait for a replacement and not wanting to hold them too much to their previous players plays because they be able to answer why certain. Things were done. . 465 is an important post in regards to this. You stated you are ok waiting for a replacement but it won't matter what they say.

Yeah, but the replacements I did want to hear from had just come into the game and were catching up. It's true about Porkens, there's nothing she can really do to address my issues.

This should have been a hammer then. Or at least asked to this if everyone was ok with it. Even I had my questions at the time of going through the trouble of waiting for a replacement to that slot since it just felt like it was in a bad spot. Voting for Porkens on LLs play is the easiest thing to do right now.

I think you're right, I should have made my intent really clear here and asked if there were any objections. I have no defense for that other than it didn't occur to me. You're also right that voting for Porkens on LL's play is an easy thing to do- but for good reason. I take it you think it's a town slot? Have you talked about this already and I missed it?

[ClarkBar]

Well shit, If I had remembered 467 I would have brought it up! There you go, that was my frame of mind. Looks like I followed through on what I said to boot.

So your issue is that I don't think that Porkens can effectively defend LL's actions? She has said so herself. Just because there is a replacement does not mean the slot is given a clean slate.

[ClarkBar]

Who's twelve years old? Where did this come from?

[ClarkBar]

I remember some one saying something about benefit of the doubt something something

Was that person me? Well I gave the Homura replacement the benefit of the doubt despite having my vote on that slot for the bulk of the game. Same with our other replacements. The difference with you is that I'm as sure as I can be that your slot is scum. So I'm happy to engage with you and you seem very nice. But...

[ClarkBar]

Nobody tell him.

I hate not being in on a joke.

@FJ13: I'm sorry if it seems I'm contradicting myself. I feel like I'm not, but ok. Why would I say ok to somebody asking to wipe the slate clean? Why would I ignore things that happened in a game simply because there is a different player in the slot?

[ClarkBar]

Oh fuck, my womb joke.

[ClarkBar]

I mean it's not a joke. I'm twelve. No age restrictions here or on Pornhub thankfully.

[ClarkBar]

Out and about and on mobile, but I’m not 12, just joshing around. My original comment that I think Looker was referring to was itself a reference to another previous post.

[ClarkBar]

In the case of LL/Porkens I would receive such a suggestion with bewilderment and suspicion. Unless of course that player lays out a really compelling case for town!LL. I mean

really

compelling.

[ClarkBar]

I’m on mobile so excuse the lack of quotes and stuff. It’s a pain.

@Quick: A null read is fine, but explain why. Also, give me some reasoning on a stronger execution.

@JT13: That’s fine I guess. Is it a little weird for Quick to move off a wagon they were once on when nothing from that slot shows me that LL’s actions were just from a toxic player? Yeah. But I don’t see Quick giving Porkens a clean slate. A fair shake is different than abandoning a read.

@ Both of you: Do you believe that LL’s action were from frustrated town?

[ClarkBar]

Ok, I'm a drunky brewster right now and probably shouldn't be posting at all. BUT! I'm brimming with shit to say. I'll get to it tomorrow. A lot of it would just be me quoting Quick and asking questions as a result.

So far I'm not getting some essential things. Including: people on the LL/Porkens wagon not jumping in at all. I'm not asking for this to bolster my own argument, I feel good about that on its own, but the silence is off-putting. Including: An actual argument that I can buy for LL/Pork actually being town. Including: A case for BM being scum.

Goddammit Porkens, you sly fox. You might dismantle your wagon yet, but you don't get all the credit for that. Just know that I know you're scum and I won't let go.

Ok, I'm seeing two screens and I had some really good points running through my head a couple hours ago and I hope those return tomorrow morning.

[ClarkBar]

I actually liked that post. It mirrored my feelings exactly. I can be an asshat too I suppose.

[ClarkBar]

Porkens, I get it. You can't believe the false claim, you couldn't believe your town PM, LL was such a dick etc. Not going for it.

[ClarkBar]

Riddle me this: why did 76 vote for bloop?

Ask 72. His reasons seem to be the same as LL's. The exception being that 72 never gave an opinion on the ART. How does that rub you?

Why did 72 change his vote? Why did 72 seem to not know where his vote was at that point in the game?

[ClarkBar]

Show me a post where 72 ever really scum-hunts or pushes anything at all, or gives two fucks at all other than being aggravated by Quick and trying to stop a specific claim from LL or defending LL's play?

[ClarkBar]

Yes, don't let Blair know but I think you were the best player in Newbie 2013.

And this is a really, really poor post.

[ClarkBar]

Trying to add a little butter to the Jam eh? If you compliment his "tone" then he's sure to unvote you.

[ClarkBar]

Clark, you up for a little game?

I'm here for better or worse. Yes, let's play a little game.

[ClarkBar]

@72 I will 100% respond to everything tomorrow. Question 4 is kinda on you, but I'll post it.

Off the bat, I'm annoyed by BM's reads list. Two plus days of rehashing old stuff seems like a dodge. Just read the thread (it ain't that long) and give some reads and start participating in current events.

[ClarkBar]

I’ll take that as a yes. Tell me what you think of this readslist:


Looker replaced Homura: Lurky as fuck. How can I read this?
Battle Mage replaced Blopp: bloop was zero entity, BM is just filling space
72offsuit: scummy as shit, should be lynched today
JamSV replaced individual: arrogant annoying but town
TheThirteenthJT: ehhhh town I guess talks a lot isn’t obviously bad
ClarkBar: town ish I guess
LicketyQuickety (SE) replaced EchoVision: durrrr not too much scumtelling but I dunno
Raya36 (SE) : kinda sheepy? Leaaaaaaanscum
Porkens (SE) replaced LuckyLuciano: total town hero

I do like almost all of these reads. The Quick read needs more work, as does mine.

[ClarkBar]

I can't follow the BM vote. I hated the entrance to the game. I hated the music video posts. I hated using meta as a push against LL and 72 (I know those are my top cum reads) but whatever. I guess it's not one thing. But I'm not moving off you.

[ClarkBar]

You are townreading me for scumreading someone who townreads him? Am I following that correctly?

Talking to me?

[ClarkBar]

Didn't say they were scummy, I just hated them all. If I found all of those things AI then my vote would have been on Quick a while ago.

[ClarkBar]

LL is not a rage quitter. He is also not a sore loser. I dont see !scumLL replacing out and screwing over his replcement with his fake claim.

But town!LL would do this? What is this argument?

[ClarkBar]

Look at Porkens go. Sowing suspicion, starting shit. I respect it. Still scum.

[ClarkBar]

Clark tell me what’s up with reya.

I've talked about her a lot. Do some reading.

[ClarkBar]

Ok, we have a little cadre here throwing shade at me. No probs, but where's them votes?

[ClarkBar]

My bad 72, you did at one point refer to the ART. Why did it take you so long, especially when players asked you if your opinion/reasonsing for the Blopp wagon had changed, to address it?

[ClarkBar]

Ok sorry about contributing to 10 pages today. I just finished my secodnnd read through and here’s my new spicy take:

Reya is ropebait and scum are setting up to mishang her.

El Town:
JamSV replaced individual
ClarkBar
LicketyQuickety (SE) replaced EchoVision
Raya36 (SE)
Porkens (SE) replaced LuckyLuciano

Scum are in:
Looker replaced Homura
72offsuit
Battle Mage replaced Blopp
TheThirteenthJT

(Now there is an alternate universe where Echo was scum with Blooper but that’s pretty tinfoil)

Anyway, could be shit, but there you have it.

VOTE: TheThirteenthJT

UNVOTE: Porkens

I can't get into it right now. I'm tired. I just can't have you at E/C/W/L-1 overnight.

[ClarkBar]

What would be the best move as town?

Execute you.

I unvoted you because of your comment on Raya. It was indeed spicy. I've struggled with that slot and you pretty much exactly summed up one of my fears regarding it. Also, I didn't want you at E-1 while I slept.

Now that I'm awake and sober (albeit hungover) I don't see that as a super worthwhile avenue to pursue. At least not right now.

Intent to hammer. I'll abide by BM's request for him to catch up.

[ClarkBar]

You also note you find some of my play confusing - can you elaborate? Calling me out for not contributing much, 1 day after I joined, a bit harsh! In contrast to your Quick read, you view my slot with suspicion, although not clear from your analysis why that is the case?

It was a bit harsh, as was 685. Play the game the way you like, I don't know why I got so aggro about it.

I didn't find your play confusing, there were some short posts you made soon after you replaced in that seemed like they may have belonged in a different thread or something. Nothing I consider AI.

[ClarkBar]

If you are going to answer a question that was directed at someone else, you could at least do so in good faith. What is MY best move replacing into this game as town?

Regardless of your alignment I would say that you've played appropriately. You came into a slot that was bonkers and scummy. You couldn't answer for the behavior of your predecessor and you were open about that. You asked questions and engaged. You were fine. All of that I appreciate, but it doesn't change my strong belief that your slot is scum. Admittedly your Raya comment gave me a lot of pause. I had almost those exact words in my head when I read your post.

Sorry for the bad faith. I knew what you meant and I was snarky. I've been in a weird mood.

[ClarkBar]

Yes, don't let Blair know but I think you were the best player in Newbie 2013.

And this is a really, really poor post.

WTF dude

Just hammering the joke that I'm offended by Jam's low opinion of me in that game. Of course he would have a low opinion of my play and of course you were the best player that game.

[ClarkBar]

I expressed intent, so Porkens has the the opportunity.

[ClarkBar]

I'm kind of in a melancholy funk, sorry if I seem quiet.

I guess my issue with Quick/LL is that I have to take into account that those two players may really dislike each other. The history between them may have played a large part in Quick's attitude towards LL, and when the player was replaced that led to a change in attitude towards the slot. I think LL meta was even the original reason Quick had for voting him.

I'm not discounting this scum team, I just don't love it. I want Porkens first.

[ClarkBar]

And I will tell you, I was excited to be the hammer. I've never done it before, I was going to post a M.C. Hammer "hammer time" gif and everything. But we had people like Looker and BM who were still catching up/giving reactions and so I was being patient. And then it turned out my vote math was wrong. If somebody claims intent I would actually request they let me unvote, then they put Pork at L-1 so I can then hammer.

My dream was in reach and I let it slip through my fingers.

VOTE: Porkens

[ClarkBar]

E-1^ just to be clear.

[ClarkBar]

And I will tell you, I was excited to be the hammer. I've never done it before, I was going to post a M.C. Hammer "hammer time" gif and everything. But we had people like Looker and BM who were still catching up/giving reactions and so I was being patient. And then it turned out my vote math was wrong. If somebody claims intent I would actually request they let me unvote, then they put Pork at L-1 so I can then hammer.

My dream was in reach and I let it slip through my fingers.

VOTE: Porkens

E-1^ just to be clear.

I've had one vote target all game thus far, who's excited for me to have been right thus far?

^Yes, please.

[ClarkBar]

If you promise me you'll flip him tomorrow I'll join Pork today.

I promise that I'll reread the game with the knowledge of the upcoming flip(s?) in mind.

[ClarkBar]

UNVOTE: Porkens

[ClarkBar]

I feel like Charlie Brown with the football.

[ClarkBar]

I’m somewhat on the fence with Clark. His posting doesn’t seem contrived,

but some of it is kinda bad

. I mean maybe I’m underestimating him. Did you case him I can’t remember

You're probably estimating just fine. I really shouldn't drink and post, I tend to not take things as seriously and can be unclear in what I'm trying to say.

[ClarkBar]

I would have hammered Porkens here but Clark wanted it bad so I didn't. This feels like a weird turn Jamsv. It makes me want a Porkens flip worse now.

I wanted the hammer. We talked about it. I think Porkens is scum. I don't see a town motive for what happened with that slot today. I appreciate the discussion we've had with Porkens, but I'm ready to move on and look at this game with more concrete information.

[ClarkBar]

I don't understand 875.

[ClarkBar]

Jam, that's pretty cold.

[ClarkBar]

already knows

I’m going to flip town.

Are you messing with me here?

[ClarkBar]

If Porkens is town I'm going to use that little "add foe" button on LL.

[ClarkBar]

I'm tired and feeling a little blue so I don't feel sharp right now. But Jam's last few posts seem to come from bizarro world. I'm also not a 500 IQ player.

Did you actually have a scum-read on me Jam? What's your motive?

[ClarkBar]

I was wrong about Porkens and Jam robbed me of the hammer. What a brutal fucking day.

[ClarkBar]

If Porkens really does flip town then I have no idea what was with all the claims from that slot.

I suspect he's scum though and doing some last minute distancing and setup work

Why would he be lying at this point?

[ClarkBar]

Revenge for our last game.

It's not my fault you were scummy! You placed 3 E-1 votes on players you hadn't mentioned and gave no reasons or had any questions to go along with them. Between you and Umlaut who had the benefit of replacing in and hiding behind Menalque's antics. chose you and I wish I hadn't.

[ClarkBar]

Well, I guess bad town-play is sometimes just bad town-play. Need to reread I think.

[ClarkBar]

jesus christ. i'm alive and all my suspects are dead

and town

.

I'm sure I'm getting NKed tonight when you flip scum anyway, but they'll lynch your obvscum buddy Quick tomorrow thanks to me!

This tough for me, and somewhat WIFOMEY (apologies for using an acronym as a verb) but would scum NK their biggest scum-read? Anybody is free to weigh in here.

[ClarkBar]

initial thoughts: Jam-scum wouldn't have made that weird play yesterday around the Porkens wagon.

I think I agree. Still, a dick move.

Raya's posts at end of day had conviction and didn't leave herself open to a Porkens town-flip. Felt legit.

Please explore this further. Conviction at that point is, to me, not AI.

Must be at least 1 scum on the Porkens wagon because there was no reason not to be, therefore must be TTJT and/or Looker.

I think some people had blinders on yesterday due to LL's play. But Looker was so actively scumhunting...

need to revisit 72offsuit as i think i basically locktowned him based on pork being scum.

And for me 72 being scum was largely contingent on Porkens being scum.

[ClarkBar]

Thanks for the quick response, BM. Going to ask a couple more questions.

1. Are examining/guessing about NK's a worthwhile pursuit of Town? (not an attack on you for 946 BM, just a general best practices thing.)

2. Is Raya scum? I'm not interested in responses to this one from Raya or BM, though they are welcome. I do want to hear from everybody else on this matter.

[ClarkBar]

^Intent to hammer and Jam's little gambit for the hammer not withstanding?

[ClarkBar]

I think you're close to the money with that list, 13JT. Can you tell me why Looker is so much of a town-read though?

[ClarkBar]

I think you're

close

to the money with that list, 13JT.

Can you tell me why Looker is so much of a town-read though?

I'll decline any invitation for further thought until everybody checks in.

[ClarkBar]

FFS I take the pain to write a decent-sized post on mobile and when I hit submit it asks me to login again and the post is lost.

I work on weekends I’ll post something this evening, and I’m not a dick the way that decline post made it seem. That was a poor way of communicating my position at that time. I’m happy to answer any and all questions!

[ClarkBar]

The pond is a cute way of referring to the Atlantic.

@BM: of course I will, no need to get snippy. I just want to do it on a proper computer. Patience please.

[ClarkBar]

I think I know what your theory is BM! And perhaps not the one you may be pretending to have.

[ClarkBar]

So, first thing: my posting will go way up tomorrow. I worked today and I'm a little tired plus my son is on fire right now (figuratively, of course) so I can't read three words of anything without being distracted. But I wanted to respond to a few things.

Clark - Can you talk me through this one? You started by saying 72o would only be scum with Pork, and after he votes you, you agree with TTJT's assessment he is top scumread? Or is there another part of the list you agree with?

Huh? I said (and maybe I could've been clearer) that my D1 scum-read of 72 was contingent on a scum-flip from Porkens. And in reading back I did kind of respond to your question regarding his scum list. I wouldn't publish an identical one by any means, but I didn't hate it. Sounds wishy-washy, but he may be close on this one. 72 is weird for me.

Here's what I hope to accomplish tomorrow. Making clear what my thought process has been since the Porkens flip and what rough rubric I'll be using to gauge my reads. Trying got get any clarity at all on what the case against me actually is right now. My push against Porkens? That's rich. Trying to establish why the hell everyone is trying to "solve" the game by guessing at scum partners.

I'm fading and screwing up quote tags. Tomorrow!

[ClarkBar]

Ahhh, feeling fairly refreshed. Having some oatmeal and some coffee...ready for a little reading! I'll have something up soon.

[ClarkBar]

I think I'll just kinda do a rundown of players and update my thoughts on them. I'll try and be somewhat brief to avoid a huge wall of text. LL's absolutely insane (he was trolling, right?) play from yesterday makes the wagon against him a little tough to dissect. LL sunk that slot to a point where scum could happily and justifiably sit on that wagon/join the push. That makes things tough, but there are other things to consider in when updating reads.

JamSV:

The Blopp E-1 with the hammer invitation comes as no surprise to me based off of previous experience. The back and forth with LL is a tough hang, but I think I buy Jam's vote. Jam spent virtually all of D1 engaging with that slot, often for his own reasons. He doesn't seem to sheep anybody else, but I did breeze through his iso a little. His arguments seem genuine and largely make sense. Then we get to the end of the day and that whole bizarre sequence. I think I don't see it as a scum!Jam move. He then votes for me today and is pushing a Me/Looker scumteam. Which is cool and all, but where's that coming from? No case or reasoning is something that I typically suspect, but I've come to expect it from Jam. I'll address Jam's views on Looker when I get to him. For now I lean slightly town on Jam.

TheThirteenthJT:

Also a town lean. He feels I'm scummy, and points out what he considers are contradictions on my part. I'm not entirely sure exactly what he means or what my scum-motivation would have been. I answered his questions as best I could and he seemed to be satisfied, or at least enough to drop it. I appreciate that my turn on LL seemed sudden, but to be fair LL's behavior shift was itself pretty sudden and extreme. Reading through again I just think the points that 13JT bring up are valid and he's engaging and following-up with people on those points. Nothing seems forced.

Looker:

It appears Looker replacing in was the match that lit LL off. They have some history, and Looker indeed votes LL. Which is tough to criticize, that slot was going off the rails at that point. The percentages thing is fine, his reasoning for it after I asked is fine. Putting me at a 0% flip preference is strange, as if he knows I'm town with certainty, which only scum could know at that point. But I don't think that's what the 0% is implying. I'm basic? I suppose I've been called worse. The spat with Jam is interesting. Looker feeling that Jam (and correct me if I'm wrong here) hammering when he did implied he didn't care about Looker's response to the percentages thing. I strongly disagree that Jam has skated under the radar. The vote for Jam almost seems OMGUSy, but other reasons are provided. This back and forth kinda feels like two townies feeling each other up, but I'll still read with great interest. There's not a ton to go on with Looker, for me right now I think he's at a null.

Battle Mage:

Things get a little more murky here. Having both of his top scum-reads both flip town isn't without some comedy. Obviously Porkens was a wagon anyone could get on, but the Quick thing never really went over with me. BM accuses me of having my blinkers on, but I never found anything really compelling about scum!Quick. So is BM's push on Quick genuine or an attempt to test the waters for an alternate wagon? Well given the NK of Quick such an effort would have been for nothing. Also, BM NK'ing Quick after he made him an avatar would be pretty rude. Porkens votes BM near the end of D1, and some of his reasoning resonates with me. I have only one completed game, and in that scum came in as a replacement and did a bunch catch-up posts that were essentially fluff that appeared pro-town/high-effort. I think BM's takes are slightly better and he has some real takes, as horribly wrong as they turned out. Anyways, we get to D2. I appreciate that my posts and questions early on may have seemed a little cryptic, they weren't meant to be. I certainly don't think they were scummy. My 959 could certainly have been worded better, but I'm not ducking anything. I guess I'm walking you through 954 right now. Certainly don't think I was being dodgy. All of this is to say that BM's vote on me (a player he has consistently given at least a weak town-read to all game) seems to come out of nowhere and the reasons backing it seem thin. He says he has a theory he wants to test. I had a guess as to what that might be last night, but on second thought I might be projecting a bit there. Seems so many players have their little tests that seem to go unexplained. It may be connected to 988 and the pressure comment. Pressure to do what? What are asking of me that more pressure will deliver? I think this slot is a null for me for now, but I have some serious apprehension.

72offsuit:

Well, a lot of the takes I had on 72 from 465 were dependent on a scum flip from Porkens. town!Porkens does not equal town!72, but 72's disdain for that wagon and the role-claim discussion certainly has aged well. It could be argued that scum!72 was able to oppose the Porkens wagon while having some confidence it would go through anyway, and used the opportunity to build some town cred. Skimming through his ISO though doesn't give me that feeling though. Godammit, 72 might be town. I'm a scum-read for 72, and I can appreciate that me going from defending LL's Blopp reasoning to wanting the slot lynched seems opportunistic. But, as I've said, LL went from 0 to 60 fast, and had a lot of interactions to work with. I simply could not see that progression and actions from a town player. I can't defend any more than that. If 72 has further reasoning for me being scum I'm happy to talk about that. 950 has some questionable logic.

Raya36:

The things I didn't like about Raya in the early game can be found in 399. My opinion of that hasn't changed, though Raya made a few posts that made me feel her push on LL may have been authentic. If Raya is scum then LL's freak-out was a gift from the heavens, because her original case against him was not working for me at all. She defended it well enough, and others had similar issues, but I thought the Blopp wagon was ok. Now I'm going harp on this again because I've just reread this part of the game and it's pinging me hard. Raya is on the Blopp wagon with Lucky and Homura. JamSV comes into the game with his swinging dick and puts Blopp at E-1 with no case or questions but an invitation to hammer. I knew Jam well enough to not let this bug me too much, but does Raya have that same insight? Raya unvotes because E-1 was too much pressure (especially if the player in question may be your partner and your little early game distancing got to a dangerous point) and doesn't want a quick hammer and gives shit to LL for not unvoting. Why not have a problem with Jam for the vote? Why not have an issue with Homura for not unvoting despite being active after the E-1 vote? Why not move to vote LL right away? Why say that you find both LL and Blopp scum (perhaps so her move away from Blopp doesn't look too sudden)? LL makes a good point in 72. Pocketing in 107...I mean Jam just made that E-1 vote that led Raya to hop off the wagon. Naturally after the LL claim it became much easier to simply ride the wagon.

Yes I have some concern of BM being her partner, but I need to reread their interactions more closely etc. Plus partner speculation doesn't seem very helpful yet, but what do I know.

VOTE: Raya36

[ClarkBar]

I think I'm going to have to side with Jam in the Looker/Jam jamboree.

Regarding the flip percentages: I asked Looker about them in 475 due to my interest in how or if those percentages match up with reads. The response came in 534. I thought it was interesting to express the perceived value of a flip into a list, and of course how scummy a player is would be a factor. The problem is in the lack of a clear explanation for why the percentages are what they are, and how or why they change. In a void, me being at 0% makes it seem like Looker

knows

I'm town. And then me going from 0% to 9% without any explanation would indicate something about how Looker sees me/the game has changed, and not sharing why is not helpful. And that's the major point I agree with Jam on, what's the point of flip preferences if there's no clarity on why those preferences are what they are or why they change?

It's true that only 6 or 7 hours elapsed from when Jam asked you about your percentages in 753, so I don't know that I'd classify that as "plenty of time" to respond. However it was at a stage of the game where a hammer was imminent and there was a lot of discussion around that. I think that in that moment Jam was more focused on hurting and upsetting me than he was your response.

• How am I an OMGUS vote on JamSV when I voted him first?

You are correct, your vote was not OMGUS in the literal sense. But your vote for Jam seemed to be purely born out of him pushing you for an explanation on your reads. Perhaps there's more to it?

[*]And if JamSV hasn't skated under the radar, why am I the first person to vote him?[/list]

When I think of somebody "skating under the radar" I think of a player who posts just enough fluffy/safe content, and when they do vote it's sheeping a strong case. Jam has not been that this game. His presence has been highly visible. I don't think it's fair to say he "parked" his vote, his interactions with LL/Porkens were plentiful and often contentious. I don't believe that being consistent in a read is scummy.

I would guess that nobody voted for him because nobody had a reason to? Can you point out a situation/time in the game where you think somebody should have?

[ClarkBar]

This doesn't mean I'm assuming both scum are necessarily in this block, but I don't currently want to push Raya, Looker or Jam today for reasons I will not disclose.

Ugh, looks like my guess about your theory was right after all. Good job on your soft-claim breadcrumbs btw, nice touch.

[ClarkBar]

Yup l-2. I actually wouldn't want a quickhammers this day so I'm not risking it. Maybe Clark should claim at l-2?

I feel that claims are probs best at L-1 with notice of intent. What do you think of the case against me?

pre-edit: Oh neat

[ClarkBar]

If anyone hammers me while I'm writing my next post I quit this game forever.

[ClarkBar]

what was your guess?

Well I'm at E-1 so I guess there's no need to be coy. I think that based off my posting early in D-2 you began to suspect that I had a PR. You wanted to find out so you strongly encouraged a wagon against me despite not having any real problem with me D-2. Your reason for voting me is thin enough, but the active encouragement for others to join (988) was for one reason- getting a claim from me.

I want to test my theory - we don't necessarily have to lynch him.

If you think I'm scum and are urging others to join my wagon, but you don't need to execute me? Well I suppose my being executed would be a bonus for you as you get a bonus NK.

I also think that in case I do claim a PR you have been setting the table to discredit that claim. You can say that you knew I would claim and the reason for my wagon getting to that point was to trap me in making a claim. While doing this you breadcrumb that you may have the PR you suspect I may actually have:

This doesn't mean I'm assuming both scum are necessarily in this block, but I don't currently want to push Raya, Looker or Jam today for reasons I will not disclose.

You use the cop emoji and suggest that you have privileged information that only a PR (or scum in your case) would have. You are baiting me to get setup info, to reveal a PR for a NK, or in the best case scenario to get me executed by convincing town that a PR claim by me would be bogus. Hence your bread crumbing of a PR and a "theory".

[ClarkBar]

I am the cop, so it worked. I investigated the 13JT overnight. He's town.

I'm not sure if this is the best way to go about this, but we'll see.

VOTE: Battle Mage

Raya may still be scum, those little hints about who he doesn't want executed has his partner in it as well as somebody he want to pocket (Jam).

[ClarkBar]

BM may have also been worried that I investigated him overnight (and it was a very close call) and wanted to discredit any claim I made about his alignment. More reason to pin down if I had a PR, what it was, and hopefully discredit any claim I might make.

[ClarkBar]

I'm convinced clark BM scum team.

You give me too much credit.

[ClarkBar]

Raya would have been a fine choice, but it was really between BM and 13JT. I chose not to investigate BM because I was worried that if he were town then he would indeed be a good pick for a NK. I didn't want to waste my power. Also, 13JT was pressuring me a lot D1 for reasons that didn't rub me the right way, and I knew that 13JT would probably push me again today. If he and I did get into it today I would liked the benefit of knowing whether his push was genuine or not so I could focus my attention in the right place.

[ClarkBar]

I don't get why one would opt to do 13JT over others.

In hindsight BM was the right choice. This is my first time in this position, I made a choice and I stuck to it.

[ClarkBar]

I need to re-evaluate the game (again).

So you weren't bread-crumbing a PR?

Now we have to believe that a player of BM's experience went 3/3 on townies and put one in a position where they felt it necessary to claim. If that's the case then I guess this:

I don't want to scare you, but I'm on a rich vein of scumhunting form at the moment!

has come to a disastrous end.

[ClarkBar]

my theory was actually the complete opposite - I was pretty sure you

weren't

a PR and wanted to see if you would try and fakeclaim one if you were under enough pressure, or if you would claim VT which would get you some extra towncred.

So you pick a player that you had never put any pressure on and start a push against them to see what they claim, and a VT claim would be towncred? What? What kind of gambit is that? It makes no sense.

[ClarkBar]

Raya/Looker is the partner. If it is Jam then well fucking played, but I don't think it is.

[ClarkBar]

Go read BM's reads/interactions with Raya and Looker. Read how he talks about them. Why is he defending Looker from Jam (who makes good points) and how is BM town-reading Raya all of a sudden?

This doesn't mean I'm assuming both scum are necessarily in this block, but I don't currently want to push Raya, Looker or Jam today for reasons I will not disclose.

If BM wins out his counter-claim look back at this. The partner will be in this mix. And I personally don't think it's Jam.

[ClarkBar]

I was teasing it with the cop emoji only, but no I'm not a PR. I deliberately wanted you to claim because my theory (now presumably wrong) was that Jam and Raya were masons, based on their reaction to the LL shenanigans. Namely, they both conspicuously didn't buy the "I'm a PR" claim, which only really made sense if they were masons (and would know 100% it was BS), and they also hadn't been gunning for each other.

So you were role-fishing instead of scum-hunting? Yeah, I believe that to be true.

[ClarkBar]

BM, let me get this straight: You pushed my wagon (and why me in particular?) in order to see if I would claim so that I would either claim VT and get town-cred, or I would claim a PR and Raya and Jam would have to out themselves in order to counter it. And you couldn't see how this little theory of yours could go badly? I don't believe that a player of your experience would do something so reckless with such flawed logic in a newbie game.

[ClarkBar]

yeah especially in this game a N1 cop clear would have been helpful

I mistook this as a counter-claim somehow. My bad.

[ClarkBar]

You can bash me all you want, that's fine, but there was method to my madness.

I'm not bashing you, I like you quite a bit and hope to be in future games with you. In this case though you are scum. I don't believe your little theory. I have provided the simpler explanation. I think that if people read through D2 again (it's not a lot) they will see where I'm coming from.

[ClarkBar]

This doesn't mean I'm assuming both scum are necessarily in this block, but I don't currently want to push Raya, Looker or Jam today for reasons I will not disclose.

In what world is this not a cop soft-claim? You suggest you have privileged information and use a COP emoji at the end. It was bait, and I had to take it because enough people scum-read me and I got to E-1 fast.

[ClarkBar]

Why you: Well there were 3 options really. Probably you and TTJT would have been my top scumreads ahead of 72o

You pretty much town-read me all D1 and then all of a sudden I'm in your top two scum candidates?

TTJT is very capable of fakeclaiming as town which would have caused all manner of issues.

I'm offended at the suggestion that scum!me would not be capable of a similar fakeclaim.

I figured if you were town you'd claim vanilla, and if you didn't claim vanilla you would probably be scum

So, the thought of me possibly being a PR never crossed your mind? The potential risk of outing a PR (or two) in this gambit wasn't at all a concern?

(and obviously I'd get an indication from Jam/Raya reaction to confirm that was the case). It wouldn't rely on them outting themselves, as I could push and draw the attention on myself, and they could give subtle hints, and we'd have a good townblock but I could also draw the NK and get us into a strong position with 2 conf-towns in late game.

This bit is so convoluted and reachy it verges on the embarrassing. I love you BM, but this is some real nonsense.

No idea what you think the motivation is for scum-BM to make that play (where the sole purpose is to townblock someone if they don't fakeclaim), although I can sympathise with you thinking it's dumb play from your perspective, and with the benefit of hindsight.

I've already explained what your scum-motives were. You're smart and experienced, and something about the way I engaged at the top of D2 pinged you that I might be a PR. That's a problem for scum: maybe I'm a cop and investigated you or your partner? And so your read of me all of a sudden changed and you built a wagon on me based on lame reasoning. You introduced the idea of a theory and breadcrumbed a PR of your own for the purpose of discrediting me in case I did in fact claim a PR. What you didn't take into account is that I recognized this attempt early and called it out before you had the opportunity to counter-claim. And now you're reaching

hard

to spin it into some bizarre and confusing POE gambit.

I feel like Velma at the end of a Scooby-Doo episode explaining the plot and having all the pieces fit together nicely.

[ClarkBar]

Posting from mobile so excuse the brevity and lack of connective quotes.

What certain players aren’t saying is really telling. I lay out a case and a vote for Raya and she doesn’t mention it, just pushes a super weak point against BM. Does a town player do this? Where are those Isos?

Jam has good points against Looker. His scum read from D1 didn’t pan out (I feel ya) and so he’s picking up the next best thread from D1. He’s asking sensible questions and voting his suspicion. Town. Looker is being hostile as a result. Not town. I explain why I agree with Jam, but no comment on that now that I’ve claimed cop and there are no counterclaims.

BM is scum, and having town reads on Raya and Looker (from meta? Irresponsible and shady) confirm for me that BM’s scum partner is one of those two. He put Jam (and obviously one other) into that mix for pocketing purposes.

[ClarkBar]

Lol, why the vote for Raya now?

something

about this game changed. Again, no comment on my case/vote about Raya, but now a vote?

[ClarkBar]

I actually think it’s Looker. And, for all the hate I have for LL regarding D1 play, his ART (yes I’m trying to make that a thing) might actually be correct.

[ClarkBar]

Regardless, BM is scum. Prove me wrong.

[ClarkBar]

I really can’t wait to read the scum-thread.

[ClarkBar]

I can only let you distract me so much.

Ditraxt you from what?

[ClarkBar]

C'mon board the BM train, 72. There is no price of admission and the seats are cushy. Choo-choo!

[ClarkBar]

Town, look at 1075 and tell me how that has any bearing on anything at all at this point.

And BM, if you say something along the lines of "that's Looker for you" one more time I'm gonna hurl.

[ClarkBar]

• Clark calling me "hostile" is a bit exaggerative.

Your response to Jam does not seem commensurate to the questions he asked you and the way he asked them.

[*]What's "ART"?

ART is the "Avatar Removal Theory" put forth by LL as a possible sign that Blopp bounced due to being newbscum. He also had other reasons. This was a major point of contention D1, and a reason some people were on LL's (the person you voted for) wagon. It was brought up multiple times by multiple players and was referred to as ART multiple times by me. Have you read this game at all? Why did you replace into a game you seemingly don't care to understand?

[*]Bearing on nothing? How can my response to someone not have any bearing on the topic? These approaches are confusing me

I'm sure a lot confuses you. 1075 was simply rehashing your argument with Jam. It made no mention of my input on the debate, or most importantly, my wagon going to E-1 and my subsequent claim, and my vote and case for scum!BM. Those are some glaring omissions. But now that you're here and will surely answer in a timely manner: What do you think of BM's theory and how he tested it? Do you believe and agree with his reasoning for it? Do you think my opposing theory for his actions has merit or no?

[*]It made no sense to flip Raya yesterday when my suspects were Porkens and JamSV.

• Scum are JamSV and Raya

[/list]

Why did you vote LL? 474 doesn't give a lot. Why did Raya go from 10% to 16% to 22%? You provide no explanation, offer no case or reasoning, and have not asked Raya any questions nor referred to her posts at any point this game. Again, just having numerical rankings of who you want executed without any reasoning is worthless. If you're so sure Jam is scum why did you switch your vote?

[ClarkBar]

I won't have time to respond to everything - I'll make the effort here although I'm not sure it will achieve much as you've gone full tunnel on me.

I'm not tunneling on you. I think you're scum for the reasons I've explained. I am also looking very hard at Looker, I am anxiously awaiting the return of Raya, I'm not 100% on Jam or 72o but I'm also not at all interested in their execution today.

Why you: Well there were 3 options really. Probably you and TTJT would have been my top scumreads ahead of 72o

You pretty much town-read me all D1 and then all of a sudden I'm in your top two scum candidates?

I basically town read everyone Day 1 apart from my 2 scumreads.

That's cool, but if your read switches from a town-read to a scum-read I think it's nice to say why. Maybe give the player in question something to work with? Have a dialogue?

As above, if I was scum and thought you were a PR, why would I want you to claim? ESPECIALLY if I thought you were a cop, because in claiming, you'd be guaranteed to be protected at night by a doctor if there is one.

I don't want to get into a WIFOM quagmire. Why would town!you want me to claim? I think my argument for your scum motivation is stronger and simpler than yours.

What you refer to as a "bizarre and confusing" POE gambit, is a staple of my game nowadays, and it can be very effective. I can't refer to ongoing games, but there is nothing to stop you reading.

Would you be willing to point me to a completed game where this gambit was effectively used? I find it difficult to believe that pushing a wagon on a player to see what kind of claim they make is a tried and true winning method. The risks are enormous. The most obvious of which is what happened here, which is you force an actual PR to claim. What if scum!me made a VT claim? Then you'd be giving town-cred to scum. Your gambit also relies on there being 2 masons, and there is only a 22% (see Looker, percentages can mean something!) chance of that being the case in this game. It also relies on your suspicion of who those masons might be to be correct. And in turn it relies on them to somehow know to "signal" to you that a fake claim had been made without outing themselves as PR's. All the while leaving open the possibility of a quick hammer or an "oopsie-poopsie" hammer on a potential town slot.

Unless I'm fundamentally missing something I cannot see the risk/reward ratio of your gambit to be in town's favor. I do see what the goal of the gambit is, I just can't see that goal justifying the myriad of risks and potential misfires.

Please do me the courtesy of actually giving this some thought and reading and responding to my points above.

I'm giving it thought, relax. I didn't respond to everything due to time purposes/I feel I already addressed it. But if there is something glaring you want me to discuss I'm happy to do so.

[ClarkBar]

Am I the crazy one here? I'm not trying to be myopic, I simply have a very hard time believing that town!BM would use such a reckless gambit. Maybe in a micro or something for the lolz, but not as an SE in a newbie game.

I asked this question to Looker, who is no doubt poring over the whole game in order to formulate a well-crafted and meaningful response , but I would like everybody to answer it:

But now that you're here and will surely answer in a timely manner: What do you think of BM's theory and how he tested it? Do you believe and agree with his reasoning for it? Do you think my opposing theory for his actions has merit or no?

[ClarkBar]

Well, I guess that's just Looker for you!

[ClarkBar]

I didn't say you were rude necessarily, but I do think your reaction to Jam has been a little more hostile than the line of his questioning should provoke.

I don't think it's fair to characterize my scumhunting tools as being rooted in belligerence and insults. I am getting frustrated with you not answering basic questions or apparently reading this game with any close attention.

Yes, Raya hasn't been here. Is that why you voted her instead of your top scum-read? Because she's not here?

[ClarkBar]

And so my belligerent and insulting style of scum-hunting claims yet another.

[ClarkBar]

Lemme guess. Dunnstral has been playing on this site forever, and has a prickly demeanor and a style of play all their own. If newbs don’t get it it’s a big directed at us.

In all seriousness, welcome Dunkirk! Can’t wait to hear your thoughts.

[ClarkBar]

Dunkirk

Why did you call me that

Wasn't being cute, that's just a flub.

[ClarkBar]

Can’t wait to hear your thoughts.

My what?

Your thoughts. What you think about the game. What you think about your predecessor and other players. What you think about wagons, reads, and cases. You know...your thoughts.

[ClarkBar]

Agree with 1136. I believe there is a more legit and compelling reason to be on BM's wagon.

[ClarkBar]

At the risk of seemingly always agreeing with Jam I want to weigh in here...

This site seems to be brimming with players who like to foster some kind of persona/playstyle for... reasons. Maybe to have a chaotic meta, probably because they think they're super intelligent and cool. In both Newbie games I've been most slots got replaced, probably because of my toxic, insulting, and belligerent tone. Those slots have been filled by players who are

not

newbies. In some cases those players have completely hijacked these games with play whose purpose seems more to serve their own ego than their win-condition.

And maybe they're right, and I don't appreciate their brilliance. Regardless, this is a newbie game. In theory players should be here to learn the basics. Looker posts infrequently, does not respond to basic questions, and does not use reasoning when presenting reads or placing votes. He isn't even reading the thread. To a new player (or any reasonable person) his behavior is anti-town, and verging on trolling. And that leads to this problem:

Why ask him to stop? Just vote and kick him.

At this point in the game we should be voting for people for reasons outside of "that's the way they are". If Looker is town he is providing wonderful cover for scum. And given that this is a newbie game I think that's unfair.

[ClarkBar]

Ok BM. Let's say that you are town. What do you think are the best two options for an execution today and why?

[ClarkBar]

Also ps clark maybe next time you are cop don't out a town unless 100%needed.

This is my first rodeo in this position, and I'm sorry if I endangered you needlessly. I was concerned that I was going to be hammered at any second and felt that it was important for town to have that information. It would have been annoying to see a big D3 push on you from the graveyard, like my entire role ability was for not.

I guess I'll check back in a few hours. This game sure did die. Also, it's my birthday (thank you thank you) and as BM and Jam know I'm a bit of a drinker. So...if there is something to reply to later this evening there's a

slim

chance I'll be a little, uh, loose.

[ClarkBar]

1142 was a very good rebuttal. I'll yield to your experience on Looker. And apologies to Looker if he feels I'm being insulting. I'm just frustrated with the lack of answers/input.

[ClarkBar]

I'm actually gonna UNVOTE: Battle Mage for the time being. I'm gonna be outta the house and I don't want anything to happen in my absence. I also want to see his reads/arguments. And I

also

want more people to weigh in on the question I asked, so far only one has (unless I missed something).

[ClarkBar]

I somehow missed 1149. I think it got bumped.

BM, if you are scum then when this game is over I will PM you my address so you can send me a bottle of your favorite booze as consultation for fooling me and causing me to lose yet another game. I think you have me in your corner for now.

Posting from mobile so I’ll leave it at that for now. Fuck.

[ClarkBar]

Still posting from mobile and the drinks are setting in, but oof. That was a good post.

[ClarkBar]

VOTE: Dunnatral

[ClarkBar]

Mobile autocorrect, not trying to fuck up your name again.

[ClarkBar]

That’s E-1 I believe. And I’m ok with it.

[ClarkBar]

I laid out a case and a vote earlier. Maybe respond to that? I’d refer other explanations to 13JT (town) or Looker (I dunno)

[ClarkBar]

Articulating why you’re town might be an avenue...

[ClarkBar]

A simple read? Of a slot that put a player at E-1. And then to pursue a player that didn’t place an E-1 vote for not being more careful? And ignores Homura who did nothing different? Do you think E-1 is inappropriate, ever?

[ClarkBar]

In the future feel free to just quote necessary bits.

[ClarkBar]

^Unsure how to feel about this argument. If you do know a pushed slot is town and is doomed (again, LL really did this game a disservice) then all the town cred is there for the taking. It's like a white knight thing.

[ClarkBar]

Somebody is bussing somebody.

[ClarkBar]

I went from a pretty agreed upon scum-read to an E-1 to an uncountered PR claim and prob/confirm town in about 20 or so posts. Ask yourselves, who responded (or hasn't even referred to it) when and why?

Beware the "it wasn't worth mentioning" bullshit.

Looker, you like wagons. How did you like the one that grew quickly on me?

[ClarkBar]

Ok, got one.

[ClarkBar]

Still my birthday for half an hour. I'm going to walk naked to the park across the street (who's going to stop me?) and have a smoke. While I have that smoke I'll be considering a few things. Including: is Jam's push (for as much I agree on it) on Looker for real? Has BM totally schooled me by talking me out of his execution? Is Looker a dick or a monk? Is 72's vote for BM pure opportunism?

I do like this game for all the whining I do. I just can't stand to lose again.

[ClarkBar]

I'd take Clark as my buddy to guarantee his first win as scum, and also so you could be right about me and Clark being scum.

to guarantee his first win as scum

to guarantee his first win

his first win

Well 0-2 feels great. Kudos to Jam for sticking to his guns and doing his best to help town. Pretty much on the ball all game, well done.

It hurts that I too correctly identified the scum team only tell allow myself to be misdirected. I tried to not be too myopic and my regret for the Dunnstral vote is crushing.

I really thought town had a great chance here, Jam was objectively a ridiculous wagon that made no sense. Why ignore my FoS's from D2? But GG overall, I enjoyed this one.

[ClarkBar]

The mafia PT when we replaced in was hilarious, I think it was just Blopp and Homura going "shit, what do we do now?" If they come back to the site, they can claim an unbeaten record though, Looker and I definitely gave scum a better chance here.

Yeah, I'm 2 for 2 on newbie games where the scum team are highly experienced players that replace in. Probably good for learning purposes I suppose. Can't wait for that scum chat!