Newbie 2019 | Game Over!

[T-Bone]

Vote: Micc

Statistically, one of us has to be mafia, and since I am not, obviously Micc is. This math is 100% foolproof.

[T-Bone]

Ya'll have funny definitions of lurkers though. I imagine some of you come from mafia sites that do games in the span of a few hours?

[T-Bone]

i just spent an entire post defending your not being here for the last five hours and you vote me

i feel betrayed

Pls don't pocket me. Because it will work. But then I will shame you for it.

[T-Bone]

I’m speculating. Is it wrong to attempt to figure out why a certain player would carry out a particular action?

Why not let him speak for himself without the benefit of your speculation?

Because I’m already aware of the reasons why he would do this.

uhhhh...why would you know the motivations of another player?

Seems like the logical conclusion to that would be "I know their motivations because we're scum together".

Where have I gone wrong?

[T-Bone]

i just spent an entire post defending your not being here for the last five hours and you vote me

i feel betrayed

Pls don't pocket me. Because it will work. But then I will shame you for it.

Actually now that I think about it. Why did you feel the need to defend me? Surely I could have done it myself when I got here were it necessary?

[T-Bone]

Tbone said. "uhhhh...why would you know the motivations of another player?

Seems like the logical conclusion to that would be "I know their motivations because we're scum together".

Where have I gone wrong?"

It is a logical conclusion, but you can assume the motivation of another by putting the pieces of the puzzle together. It does not mean that they are scum. The whole point of the game is to try to figure out the motivations of every player here is it not? Because figuring out the motivations of the player by their actions will lead you to whether they are scum or not.

Well here's why I questioned it. It's all about the way in which we talk about these things. When you are mafia, you know everyone's alignments. He didn't say "I am trying to figure out his motivations" he said (paraphrasing) "I know his motivations". At this stage in the game only two players KNOW anything.

[T-Bone]

To answer Micc in post 71, I play real-time chat mafia and still don't really have a definition of "lurking" here. He hasn't posted for 5 hours and that is my definition, though I've unvoted. Micc seems to be pocketing T-Bone in post 74.

To help you out. Our Day 1 deadline is 10 days. The Mod only requires that you post once every 36 hours. That would be a closer approximation of what lurking is on mafiascum.

[T-Bone]

To Shelly and Noblenoob, you can also use some buttons on the forum to quote people, instead of copying and pasting their words. Your buttons will look similar to this depending on the skin you are using.



"quote will open a new post with it quoted. "Q+ allows you to select multiple quotes before hitting the reply button.

[T-Bone]

I disagreed that T-Bone was scum, thus unvoted in post 98.

My read on T-Bone changed after he started talking and I got better vibes from him. To unvote a seemingly town-ish player is what I should do.

Why was me talking enough to get you to change your vote?

[T-Bone]

Or maybe more specifically, what did you see that made you think not scum?

[T-Bone]

Okay cool.

[T-Bone]

To be honest I have a few reads but I am actually a little lost with what has been discussed in the past few hours but from what I have read I have a couple of reads and one who I think to be scum right now

Would you mind elaborating on those reads?

[T-Bone]

Can someone explain how lynching works? Is it majority by the end of the day, or does it go to No Lynch if we don't get five votes?

Also, it's correct to lynch on the first day, right? Like, statistically?

Elimination works when someone receives the majority of votes (in this case 5). If we don't reach 5 by deadline, no elimination occurs.

It is always better to eliminate someone than to not eliminate someone, as this is the town's only tool for removing mafia. Even a mislim of town is preferred to nolim.

[T-Bone]

In 10 words or less why are you scum, Micc?

[T-Bone]

Tbone can you elaborate on that question? It does not make much sense to me.

Sorry. That was a little facetious of me. I actually think Micc is mafia right now, and I was just trying to make the awkward transition from RVS vote to serious one.

[T-Bone]

Tbone can you elaborate on that question? It does not make much sense to me.

Sorry. That was a little facetious of me. I actually think Micc is mafia right now, and I was just trying to make the awkward transition from RVS vote to serious one.

Can I ask why you think Micc is scum?

Gut, would be the short answer.

Specially in 172 I feel like Micc had expressed stronger reads on both Porkens and myself than you, but voted you anyway. It feels like to me Micc is shying away from the tougher lunch fights than voting for his strongest read. It's really common among SEs in newbie games, because, whether they are doing it intentionally or subconsciously, it's feels easier to mislim a newbie than an SE. It's an unfortunate meta on Newbie games because we have this setup where we ask more experienced players to play with newbies. When you're scum and experienced you gravitate to scumhunting the newbies.

I feel the opposite when I play as a town SE, I gravitate towards giving the newbies a lot of latitude and scrutinizing my fellow SEs more. I would feel worse about misliming a newbie on Day 1 than an SE. I'm not saying this is necessarily the "correct" way to approach things. That's how I approached it initially and to me, Micc throwing some scumish reads on Porkens and I and not voting either one of us feels sketch. Like yes, liming one of us would be harder, but if we're your scum reads than you should want to do it.

[T-Bone]

I wouldn't be so concerned with activity right now. Life happens.

[T-Bone]

I could be down for a noob lunch.

So is it generally a thing that SEs don’t want to vote or eliminate any of the other SEs? What do you mean a noob lunch?

I would like to!

[T-Bone]

I didn't give any thoughts on Porkens. I don't really have them.

I don't believe in dealing in partner hunting on unflipped players. I don't know for sure that Micc is scum, there is no reason to try and tie him to another player unless he flips red. This is a thing, were you not a new player, I'd seriously hammer you for (and maybe that's unfair of me to give you a pass for your join date but ce la vie). It's not really good if you're town, and is one of those things that can easily be used to fake scumhunt.

[T-Bone]

There's no right way or wrong way to play the game. Don't let anyone say otherwise. I'm explaining to you why as town, I don't think it works. You will find what works for you over time.

[T-Bone]

I think you may have townslipped though, so there's a positive.

[T-Bone]

Sometimes people don't post for reasons unrelated to the game. Don't get yourself in the habit of analyzing activity on Mafiascum, Minimegabyte. It's a bad habit, and will usually lead people to getting upset, and it will not help you find scum.

[T-Bone]

Sometimes people don't post for reasons unrelated to the game. Don't get yourself in the habit of analyzing activity on Mafiascum, Minimegabyte. It's a bad habit, and will usually lead people to getting upset, and it will not help you find scum.

Okay makes sense sorry as I said trough it was just a thought that popped into my head and wanted to sorta just get it out as people want me to start speaking my mind a lot more

I don’t think T-Bone meant to say that you should share absolutely

every

thought that comes to mind. And if you really didn’t think that it was very likely, there’s almost no point in sharing it.

So I want you to share your thoughts.

I also want you to recognize the difference between out of game content and in-game content. We discourage the use of out of game influences on our mafia games. That's why, for example, you're not allowed to talk about this game outside of this thread. You're also not allowed to talk about other games you are in in this thread. We discourage analyzing activity, log in times, timestamps, presence in other threads, etc. for gameplay.

That's not to say that activity is strictly an out of game influence. It's relevant...but only to the game you are playing. So if a player is posting only once every 36 hours, and is doing that in real time, that could be relevant. Noticing that a player is online or offline at any given moment, or because certain things are happening in the thread at certain times, is not.

[T-Bone]

Meta is trash. But I'll qualify it by saying it's a worse and worse tool the more experienced the player you're trying to analyze.

[T-Bone]

As for consolidation, I'll see what Micc's replacement has before I start sniffing around other wagons. I still think the slot is scum at this point.

[T-Bone]

We're in a bit of a holding pattern, but that's okay.

[T-Bone]

@T-Bone, is there any particular reason you're keeping reads close to your chest? Do you not like to do big reads lists of everyone? I want to hear more from you

I'm not a big readslist type of person, and I am a real-time reader. I find that if you go digging into people's posts, you can convince yourself of whatever alignment you are trying to prove they are. I think most people only reveal themselves in small moments, rather than in every post, like seems to be the assumption when you go to re-read posts, ISO dive, meta dive, etc.

I would put the Micc slot as scum, I find Italiano most town, and everyone else falls in between. I don't think a lot of players have done anything in particular that is alignment indicative.

[T-Bone]

If micc is scum than word321 is too!

[T-Bone]

That is a good question.

[T-Bone]

It's based on a small sample of actions, yes.

[T-Bone]

Micc expressed scumleans on three people, Porkens, myself, and one of the newbies. He expressed stronger scumreads on both myself and Porkens, but proceeded to wagon a newbie. I reason that the reason he did that, is because he knows it would be a tougher fight to get another SE limmed, rather than a newbie. I reasoned he made that choice, because he is scum and doesn't want to have that fight on Day 1. Otherwise it seemed like it was a toss up between Porkens for I for his strongest scumread, and I think he should have tried to wagon his strongest scumread.

[T-Bone]

I appreciate your willingness to do what your predecessor wasn't, but it doesn't change what he did. Frankly, you're taking the easiest approach possible as a player replacing into a scum slot. I respect it, but I also don't trust it.

[T-Bone]

Okay, so now you've devolved into...baiting? Please don't, this is a newbie game. I'm requesting that SE to SE, regardless of your alignment, or mine.

[T-Bone]

I very much still scumread word321. You can't undo the scumminess of your predaccessor.

I'd be open to other eliminations if someone presented a compelling option. Do you think Red is that compelling option? Why?

[T-Bone]

Okay, so now you've devolved into...baiting? Please don't, this is a newbie game. I'm requesting that SE to SE, regardless of your alignment, or mine.

You’re making it sound like baiting is so terrible in newbie games specifically that it shouldn’t be done in them. I’m starting to notice a difference between the perception of newbies and SEs. Not to mention that you don’t really decide what tactics other players use...

Baiting shouldn't be done at all, to be fair. Praytell, did you find that post in question productive? If so, why?

[T-Bone]

I very much still scumread word321. You can't undo the scumminess of your predaccessor.

I'd be open to other eliminations if someone presented a compelling option. Do you think Red is that compelling option? Why?

I never even gave another option to you i just said it seemed you weren't going to be open to others if they came about. My question still stands though. Who do you think the scum partner is if Micc/word321 is scum?

Like you were on Micc right from the beginning.

Vote: Micc

Statistically, one of us has to be mafia, and since I am not, obviously Micc is. This math is 100% foolproof.

You ask everyone to share their thoughts but you haven't really said anything about anyone other than the Micc slot. Can I ask why this is?

Red is the leading wagon. I think it's fair to ask what you think about him, because you are currently not voting the person I think is most scum...or not currently voting anyone. Why is that?

What would you like thoughts on? Be specific. As about something someone else posted, or something that happened in thread. If you're gonna to ask for generalities, I'm going to answer with generalities. I don't know if I explained this well before. Most posts by players are not alignment indicative. It's just not possible for a player, town or scum, to make a post that screams their alignment every single time. I don't point this out to be difficult. Give me something to work with. I'm not going to ISO dive, that's not a fruitful endeavor.

I have explained Micc over and over again in this thread. I will be happy to explain it again, if you wish.

As you notice, in my last post Mini, and in this post, I have asked specific questions. I didn't ask for a readslist, for you to post a wall of thought on every player. Why? Because I don't think you can produce anything useful to me by doing that any more than I can.

[T-Bone]

Okay, so now you've devolved into...baiting? Please don't, this is a newbie game. I'm requesting that SE to SE, regardless of your alignment, or mine.

You’re making it sound like baiting is so terrible in newbie games specifically that it shouldn’t be done in them. I’m starting to notice a difference between the perception of newbies and SEs. Not to mention that you don’t really decide what tactics other players use...

Baiting shouldn't be done at all, to be fair. Praytell, did you find that post in question productive? If so, why?

Is this what you're referring to? From the wiki:

"Quickhammer baiting is a tactic used in LyLo with multiple scum alive, to catch them in the act of attempting to stage a quickhammer."

I am lacking the vocab to understand this interaction 100%

I'm referring trying to bait an emotional response with taunting. I don't want to be taunted, sure. I also don't want players taunting other players. It's not productive. It's also not very nice.

[T-Bone]

I do not understand that post, or why you are backing down from this scumread.

[T-Bone]

And I mean putting the tactic stuff aside that we were talking about. Let's digress on that because that's more out of game stuff than in-game.

[T-Bone]

Oof, T-Bone strikes again on awful pagetops.

[T-Bone]

Can someone give me the post they think defines Genius as scum? I don't need an ISO dive. What are we suddenly doing these votes now? What is the catalyst?

[T-Bone]

I believe you, for what its worth.

[T-Bone]

Going fishing now??

[T-Bone]

I believe him because Mason is the worst fakeclaim for mafia at L-1. Because at this point there's no reason not to Lim him unless his Mason partner claims. I'm not saying the partner needs to do it. But now that he's claimed it, we have to test it. And because we have to test it, makes it a bad move for the mafia. It's a little wine in front of me (WIFOM) but not really.

[T-Bone]

It's null I think. It reduces our elimination pool today, and expands it later assuming mafia then use their nightkills on the masons.

It's also something that we have to test absent a claim, because I don't want a like, cop or tracker to counterclaim if he is in fact, mafia. You could argue that scum!GeniusGamer didn't know that we need to test the claim and that's why he faked this over say a power role the mafia know is not in the game...but then we're left with still needing to lynch him. And that's why I think he's actually telling the truth, but there's only one way to know for sure.

[T-Bone]

Right, it doesn't help town.

[T-Bone]

Only three slots evaluated, and it took so long.

Why haven't you been evaluating all day? What have you been doing?

[T-Bone]

Votecount 1.8

GeniusGamer(4)

~ Porkens(80), ItalianoVD(68), MiniMegabyte(41), shellyc(64)

Even more fascinating now. Hmmm.

[T-Bone]

We can probably safely narrow down our lynch pool to (Mini, Shelley, word, and Red) (and you'd include me if you're not me). Why am I excluding Porkens and Italiano? I still think Italiano is town, and Porkens being the first vote changes that calculus considering how fast the other votes came.

[T-Bone]

Correct Mason play is to stay hidden and alive for as long as possible, Italiano.

Also, they cannot be scum fakeclaiming Masons. It's not possible. Mafia fakeclaiming Masons in this set-up is an autoloss.

[T-Bone]

It's not time wasting. Italiano wanted to know if it was possible for mafia to fakeclaim Masons. That is a valid concern.

[T-Bone]

I suggest the person we are both voting for!

[T-Bone]

I could be convinced to vote for Word321/Hat Guy today, but we've really only seen him have the one interaction when he entered. I would like to hear more from him. Or maybe he is laying low on purpose.

You've also seen all of Micc.

[T-Bone]

Not that I want to provide cover to a legitimate thought...but I find word321 the most unremarkable username in this playerlist and have trouble not calling them Micc instead!

[T-Bone]

Shelley. Take a breath. GG and SJR are confirmed town. That's not something you should take personally or get upset about.

[T-Bone]

Not everyone thinks you are scum, hence the people voting for word321 instead. Relax. Someone has to get limmed on Day 1.

[T-Bone]

Right, I feel you. It's okay. The majority of players that get eliminated on this site have a town role PM. It's just a fact of the game. I know you feel tempted to defend yourself, but that's not really productive.

Here's what you should do if you're town. Continue to play the game, continue to scumhunt. Yeah, you're top suspect turned out to be town. Now what? How does that change the game? If you are town, that means that it is likely at least one of the other three people pushing GG are scum. What do you think about them? What about those of us who didn't want to eliminate him?

Whether you get eliminated or not, you can still affect the outcome and still win if you're town. Everyone gets eliminated on Day 1 at some point. It's whatever. Keep trying to figure out who the mafia are anyway!

[T-Bone]

Tell me why word321 doesn't crack your suspect list Red.

[T-Bone]

I was tunneling Shelly, I read the Word game, and after sitting on it, I am voting for Word.

IRL I like to make very conservative decisions, ie not gambling, because I don't like

losing

when I could have avoided the loss by not playing at all. I feel the same way about a mislim. I am irrationally afraid of a mislim.

I feel that. Remember in mafia no decision has permanent consequences until the game is over.

[T-Bone]

Your beans are blasphemy, GeorgeBailey

[T-Bone]

What makes me so scared is that I Cannot. Read. Porkens. Nothing they say is AI. All I can look at is actions. And Porkens did not find us the scum on Day One. Ugh.

Right. Most players do not post alignment indicative stuff in every post.

Hence why I zeroed in on Micc for the one manipulation he was trying to do. And why I didn't quote a bunch of stuff and go..."scum...scum...oh look at how scum this is" etc.

I point this out to offer helpful advice for the future.

I actually think Porkens is his partner. I think you have it correct. I think if Micc/word321 had a newbie partner, they take a shot at Porkens or I instead. Yes, I know the correct kill was SJR...and I think that the fact that scum made the correct kill is an important consideration.

To be clear, it's not because I think a newbie player is inherently unskilled. I think it because they are newer they'd be more likely to make unconventional choices, because they don't have any assumptions to challenge. It was like when Shelly was challenging the validity of the Mason claim. I don't think it was because she scumslipping, but because she hasn't been around long enough to form assumptions on how things should be approached.

[T-Bone]

I swear I'm not trying to disparage anyone's skills based on their join date. I actually make the assumption that everyone plays to the absolute best of their abilities all the time.

[T-Bone]

Yes, that is what I meant by correct kill.

[T-Bone]

I think Shelly also towntold over and over again. So really the lim-pool from my perspective is just Porkens and Redados. Outside chance on Minimegabyte simply because I can't think of a single thing they've done all game. That's not a knock, that's good strategy considering if they are indeed scum.

Lock townread on Genius obviously. I think Italino and Shelly have both townslipped.

[T-Bone]

Red, why didn't you even consider GeniusGamer to be the correct kill when you spoke of it in #727?

[T-Bone]

You're too good, and that's why I've narrowed it down to two.

[T-Bone]

No, I'm saying that if it isn't Porkens as the last scum, it's because it is Redados.

[T-Bone]

Okay can we not go " it's been an hour he must be scum!!" Hmm?

[T-Bone]

My ghost vote is on Porkens for the record, but we have plenty of time to interact before we flip him.

[T-Bone]

Wait, we’re at E-1 already? Geez. I knew I wasn’t hammering, but I thought there were more people. Huh.

I suppose we should let him talk before eliminating him though. Maybe he’ll come out with some incredible, eye opening argument that instantly changes everyone’s minds.

It's more about that we have a ton of time, and need to consider the possibility that he will flip town, so we have to then decide then what'? on Day 3.

You in particular, as confirmed town who is likely to die tonight, need to be diligent in using this time wisely to get all your thoughts out in this game.

[T-Bone]

Since there are no scum partners left in the game, anyone can "defend" anyone more freely, right? Without being accused of being scum partners with someone. So that will be nice.

Wait, we’re at E-1 already? Geez. I knew I wasn’t hammering, but I thought there were more people. Huh.

I suppose we should let him talk before eliminating him though. Maybe he’ll come out with some incredible, eye opening argument that instantly changes everyone’s minds.

It's more about that we have a ton of time, and need to consider the possibility that he will flip town, so we have to then decide then what'? on Day 3.

You in particular, as confirmed town who is likely to die tonight, need to be diligent in using this time wisely to get all your thoughts out in this game.

What good does flipping do? We've confirmed masons and killed the mafia roleblocker, so the only rolls left in the game are "Vanilla Townie" and "Mafia Goon". So we wait for Porkens to flip... Vanilla Townie? Are we hoping that he trips up and flips Mafia Goon on accident and shows his hand?

Not sure what good flipping does based on the rolls left. Maybe I am misunderstanding what "flip" means.

I'm saying, I think Porkens is most likely to be scum. If we flip him and I'm wrong, then the game continues. So in that respect preparing for a world in which we do not eliminate the right person is important. Can't put all the eggs in one basket.

[T-Bone]

I think you're both misunderstanding the analysis of the nightkill I did, and over estimating its importance. It's not that important.

[T-Bone]

T-Bone, do you think Italiano’s defense and counter case are genuine?

I think Italiano has town told enough that I don't think he could fake it.

[T-Bone]

I wanna let you know that I am too good for meta. I am actually town here, but don't ever let me get away with a meta read in future games.

[T-Bone]

So if most of us are sure Porkens is scum, what are we waiting for instead of eliminating him? Because if people are so sure then there should be no need for extra discussion time. However unless you are doubting that porkens is in fact not scum and he is actually town in that case why are they being voted up?

Weird bout of impatience here. What is this?

[T-Bone]

My last post was 3 hours ago. That hardly qualifies as lurking.

I do know you well enough. Just as you should rightly know I am very capable of bussing Micc/Word in the way that I bussed them...I know you're capable of writing a case for anyone to be scum. That's NAI. I've evaluated why you say you think Italino is scum, and I feel that the reasons I think he is town outweigh them.

[T-Bone]

As for "agreeing" with the prevailing scumread...I'm pretty sure I put us on this trajectory by saying "I think it is most likely Porkens for reasons...then Redados, then Minimegabyte...because I townread Shelly and Italiano for reasons".

If you want to try and argue that someone else is more responsible for the current game state, by all means. But don't try to re-frame the events as something else entirely.

My last post was 3 hours ago. That hardly qualifies as lurking.

I do know you well enough. Just as you should rightly know I am very capable of bussing Micc/Word in the way that I bussed them...I know you're capable of writing a case for anyone to be scum. That's NAI. I've evaluated why you say you think Italino is scum, and I feel that the reasons I think he is town outweigh them.

Can you elaborate on why you think that he is town?

He speaks in a town-like way and he hammered scum. Is there more to it that I'm missing?

Well I think he townslipped on Day 1, which is the biggest factor of course. But to me, he's trying to figure out the game, I don't see that he's trying to manipulate the game state, and I don't feel like he has the knowledge of the game that someone who is mafia does.

It's actually the biggest flaw for Porkens, you, and myself actually. (except I know I'm town). I'd be surprised if it was anyone outside that elimination-pool tbh.

[T-Bone]

I don't think that OMGUS is that big a deal coming from a new player. I think it's NAI.

I readily admit my weakness of my read of the gamestate has to do with the quality of play of the players. I do suspect you and Red the most because you happen to be the two players playing most competently. Most like how I would play this game were I scum. That's dangerous to me and dangerous to the town from my perspective.

[T-Bone]

So you explain how you have “set up the dominos” because you have laid the gamestate. Good, great so you take responsibility if and when there are two dead townies on the ground.

See that right there. We all know that's not what I said.

Porkens trying to tie the idea that I am responsible for dead townies to the current game state. That's a manipulation. This is a strong indicator of why I actually believe the game ends with this elimination.

[T-Bone]

*for hypothetical dead townies

[T-Bone]

The only trajectory we're on is the game state in which you are at E-1. I did not say we would then eliminate the next two players. I said I suspect Porkens, then some other players went "oh me too" and now here we are.

You're the one trying to bargain an elimination for Italiano. So I mean? :shrug:

[T-Bone]

Either way, there's a reason I quoted you and said "this is an example of why I think Porkens is scum". I'm not going to argue with you. If you're actually town, I'm not going to (rightly) convince you that you're scum. If you're mafia, I do not expect you to go "damn, you got me, vote: myself GG"

By all means, show the playerlist that you are not actually trying to manipulate in the way I think you are. If you're sincerely trying to convince me otherwise, arguing about semantics is not the way to do it!

[T-Bone]

What do you think the significance of that is? Let's say we decided to take him up on his offer and eliminate him first. What does that actually accomplish for scum!Italiano?

Pedit: That's fine. Like I said, I am absolutely capable of power bussing a scumbuddy on Day 1. It is fair to weigh in a vacuum. I know the difference between that and what I actually did, but an outside observer might not.

[T-Bone]

What do you think the significance of that is? Let's say we decided to take him up on his offer and eliminate him first. What does that actually accomplish for scum!Italiano?

Pedit: That's fine. Like I said, I am absolutely capable of power bussing a scumbuddy on Day 1. It is fair to weigh in a vacuum. I know the difference between that and what I actually did, but an outside observer might not.

Flip that around and tell me why I’m your #1 scumread right now.

It's a different situation since you are already at E-1.

[T-Bone]

Erratic, unobservant and poor discernment of what people say. Anyone playing like you play is bad for town. The fact that you have years of experience and are playing like this makes me scratch my head. I wouldn’t expect townyou (even if you were rusty) to play this way so the logical conclusion is that you are scum.

What is this though?

[T-Bone]

Because #937 is right on the money.

[T-Bone]

Erratic, unobservant and poor discernment of what people say. Anyone playing like you play is bad for town. The fact that you have years of experience and are playing like this makes me scratch my head. I wouldn’t expect townyou (even if you were rusty) to play this way so the logical conclusion is that you are scum.

What is this though?

This is what I see from Porkens. My perception of his play.

Give me some specifics instead of "he's playing bad". How do you know?

At the very least part of my argument has been that Porkens is playing well. So at best this is lazy, at worst, this is what Porkens pointed out in #937...a pre-excuse for if Porkens flips town.

[T-Bone]

...but aren't you voting for him?

If so...then why isn't he as bad as Italiano describes? If he is as bad as Italiano describes...then he's scum.

[T-Bone]

I'd say what he's doing now is he best play for both town!Porkens and scum!Porkens, in the sense of what he is posting. Best scum play is of course pretending to be town. With that said, usually the subtle differences between a town and scum game is what a player wants other players to do. Whereas a town player just wants other town players to help then lynch scum, a scum player wants to also influence the way things play out too. In that sense we didn't give scum!Porkens much of a chance to do that since we ran him up pretty quickly. So now scum!Porkens has to do what he is doing, namely present as if he is town and talk about scumhunting after his death. Porkens as a player is smart enough to know that defending yourself is not the pro-town thing to do.

Now, this presumes that Porkens is actually scum. To be honest, he'd do the same thing as town. He is playing the correct way a townie at E-1 should. town!Porkens still wins even if he gets eliminated, so of course he should continue to ask questions, give reads, etc. So then you have to ask yourself, does knowing this change your read? Does Porken's self awareness change your read? I do ask myself. Because my read on Porkens is part process of elimination, and part things that happened before he was forced into this narrow set of play that he has to do as either alignment.

I'd need something more specific if you want a specific answer. Otherwise we risk me just talking about my philosophy on how people play as scum and should play as scum.

[T-Bone]

In terms of scum play, recall why I initially scumread Micc. I did it because of the subtle manipulation he tried to craft with his reads. He said he had some strong scumreads on both Porkens and myself, but went after the low hanging fruit instead on a player he expressed a weaker read on. That was the entire basis for my scumread. It wasn't about the quality of his posting or the quality of his reads, it was about trying to manipulate the gamestate...by shying away from a miselimination on a player (me) that would have required more fight. Now, since Micc was replaced by Word we don't know what he would have done. But we know what Word did. First tried to discredit the read by committing to a scumread and vote on me upon entry. But then he also backed off because getting that elimination would have been harder too.

This is why I said, you will not find scum posts by ISOing. That's not me saying that no one should do it, you do what works for you. I'm saying that most posts are NAI. Even now, most of what Porkens is doing is NAI. He is never going to smoking gun ever confirm himself as town or scum. I'm the same way. When Porkens says that maybe I bussed Micc...he's absolutely right to say that because I am certainly capable of that long con. You're never going to be able to quote like half my ISO and go 'this is scum', 'this is scum', 'that is also scum', etc. in the same way I am not going to be able to do that for anyone else either. It's why on its face both my case on Micc/Word looked weak, and why even now the case on Porkens is weak as well. Strong cases are kinda a myth in mafia. That's why I opened day 2 not talking about anyone's scummy ISO, but asking about the nightkill. That I have narrowed it down to both Porkens, and yourself Red, is both a function of the game state, a function of my reads on other players, rather than any handful of posts in your ISO. If you're scum, you don't have that smoking gun set of posts either. But neither does Mini, Shelly, or Italiano either.

[T-Bone]

I can hammer in the AM

[T-Bone]

I'm actually less okay with your death pact but am vacillating between whether I am falling for the mist or not tyvm Porkens

[T-Bone]

I am most certainly stop that wagon for the record. Let's get that out in the air right now.

[T-Bone]

Yeah me too. I don't like the mist.

[T-Bone]

Italiano, unvote. What is wrong with you?

[T-Bone]

And after you unvote, I want you to quote this post and answer this question. Italiano, are you a townie?

[T-Bone]

Or...we can just eliminate the final scum today? Would you like to unvote and try that instead?

[T-Bone]

I think it's Red or Mini. scum!shellyc has nothing to gain from that vote.

[T-Bone]

I think that you should unvote because you're at E-1. Let's wait for T-Bone to make his case, which he previously indicated would be on me, then we can make a decision.

This is a super interesting reaction. Hmm.

[T-Bone]

No, think it through. Does it get her to a LimLo state that she could then win?

[T-Bone]

Eliminating a townie today does not help you if you turn around and get yourself eliminated tomorrow.

[T-Bone]

Oh no, scum!shelly doesn't want me anywhere near the Final 3. The only player that wants that is scum!Italiano

[T-Bone]

Actually scum!Red might want that. I'll come up with a list.

[T-Bone]

Can we drop the dumb death pact? Sheesh.

[T-Bone]

It's Minimegabyte by the way. Book it.

[T-Bone]

It's Minimegabyte by the way. Book it.

1. So you decide to forgo the death pact?
2. Didn't you state before your preferred lynchpool was Porkens / Redados on d2? Why MiniMegabyte all of a sudden?

1. The death pact is dumb and only helpful to scum.

2. Reads are not set in stone. I feel Red town told today. Therefore only one player remains.

[T-Bone]

Although Shelly's insistence that we follow through with the death pact looks kinda desperate? Idk

[T-Bone]

1. The death pact is dumb and only helpful to scum.

Why do you say this T-Bone

Because it's dumb? I don't know why there needs to be an explanation? Only town!Italiano agrees to that. Which is fine, that's what he did. Eliminating town does nothing for us.

[T-Bone]

The death pact is dumb and only helpful to scum.

To be fair Porkens did say as much. He also said to never do it, but he was so sure I was scum that he was willing to do it. If I was scum I never would have agreed to it and I wouldn’t have been as confident as I was to do it knowing I didn’t have anything to hide. Like I said if I was scum I probably would have been eliminated Day 1 as I am not great at it because I have a hard time lying and deceiving and it shows through.

The point of the deathpact is for the townie dying, not the other player living.

Porken's final scumread was Italiano. So from his perspective, he needed to convince the rest of us that his read was correct.

But it's not meant for you to follow through on. If you're town, there's no reason to see yourself eliminated, it's a waste of a day. This death pact only has value to Shelly, Mini, Red, and myself, insofar if any three of us think you're scum. I don't. It's up to the remaining three to decide if they do or not. And if they don't, then we need to move on.

[T-Bone]

Who do you think is scum?

[T-Bone]

Yeah, people make those decisions all the time. If Italiano is scum similarly, then he will probably win.

[T-Bone]

Okay, intent to hammer Mini. I think this is right to end the game.

[T-Bone]

Okay 2 to 2.

Vote: Minimegabyte

I hope my instinct is right.

[T-Bone]

wow was not expecting that

[T-Bone]

scum!shellyc best F3 is T-Bone + Italiano
scum!Red best F3 is Mini + Italiano
scum!Mini best F3 is Red + Shelly
scum!Italiano best F3 is T-Bone + Shelly

This is some work I did for myself early Day 3. But damn did I nail it, while thinking it was between Red and Mini.

[T-Bone]

This being the best F3 for scum!shelly and scum!italino is very simple. I was townreading both of you. Either you can try to court my vote as a fellow 'townread' or try to convince the other that is was actually me the whole time.

[T-Bone]

Italiano was playing some 4D chess if he's scum though. Kudos I guess? Can't imagine I go back on that read.

[T-Bone]

Good game Shelly.

[T-Bone]

Although if it is Italiano I'll nominate you for a scummie.

[T-Bone]

Only the living players may post until the mod declares the game over.

[T-Bone]

It's not me. So if you are town, you chose poorly I'm afraid!

[T-Bone]

The game is more or less over. Don't stress yourself out. We can't change the votes. Either you or Shelly won. If its you, you don't need to do scum theatre.

[T-Bone]

Great job Shelly!

[T-Bone]

If you're town, don't vote first in LimLo. Would have improved it. Should have allowed Shelly to vote for me first.

Other than that, don't get down on yourself. I should have made it a point to explain why this was a good final 3 for scum!Shelly. And not let her get into my blindspot. Ah well no big deal.

I think all you newbies played great, whether you were with us for a single day or through most of the game. I hope to see you in other games on site, whether it be more newbie games, or in other queues.

[T-Bone]

Nah dude, I over do it as town all the time. You didn't do anything really wrong, except thinking that you were gonna follow through on the death pact. That's about it.

I think what will help you long term, is not getting rattled if people read you as scum. It's gonna happen. If you let it get to you, it wastes time, and gets you off your game. When people scumread me, I don't spend a lot of time addressing it. I will continue to play my game instead and let the playerlist come to their own conclusions. I feel if I'm town, it'll shine through with my play, and if I'm scum, well I can make my town play shine through. I can't do either of those things though if I'm arguing with someone over scumreading me.

By that same token, I don't argue with people I scumread either. That's not productive in my opinion. I do subscribe to the theory that not every post a player makes is alignment indicative, and arguments aren't alignment indicative, therefore, I feel it is counter productive.

I'm not saying you should model your play after me or anything. You do what you feel works for you. If that means reading completed games to read someone, go for it. What works for me works for me in part because most players aren't doing the same things I'm doing. And I have blindspots too because of the way I play.

Really I'd like you to take away from this is a) always trust your own alignment and don't feel like you should ever need to self-sacrifice and B) know when it is time to move on from a line of posting.

[T-Bone]

Oh gosh. My favorite part of the Mafia PT is Micc laying out his strategy in the PT, doing it in-thread, and that's what I sniped him for. XD