Newbie 2019 | Game Over!

[Redados]

This is my first game here! I have played in exactly one (1) werewolf game on a pokemon forum eight years ago. I read through that game and felt pretty nostalgic, so I decided to try to take mafia for a spin again!

VOTE: GeniusGamer because he is after me on the player list.

I'm also a big bean fan so I like this theme.

[Redados]

From my understanding, on Day one when we have no information, we start by throwing around random votes. That's only acceptable until we actually have some information to work with.

[Redados]

UNVOTE: GeniusGamer

I only wanted him to have one vote and not two. Two is one too many.

[Redados]

20

I would not want the day to end so early! We have ten whole days of discussion where we can gather more information

[Redados]

Why do you care about why he cares about why...

I guess I want to know what the thread title is 2019 instead of 2020.

[Redados]

@Porkens - I stand by what I said!

[Redados]

Here are my (very) initial reads:

ShellyC - hasn’t posted

N0bleNoob - hasn’t posted

MiniMegabyte - learning good lessons, I don’t have a read yet but answering Micc’s questions productively, trying to work through it

ItalianoVD - kind of just talking to talk at this point, but it’s early in the day

GeniusGamer - hasn’t posted a ton so no read at this point. Has managed to say nothing in the course of like three posts though

Micc - in teaching/explaining mode but I have learned nothing about his alignment based on how he is playing currently. Appreciate you talking through decisions though, it helps me understand better!

Porkens - being tough on me, but I understand they’re just trying to get me to talk! I don’t really have an alignment read at this point.

T-Bone - hasn’t posted

VOTE: ShellyC because it’s time for everyone to be talking!

[Redados]

Re: N0bleNoob, my first vote was RVS to get things started. I didn't feel like being on a wagon so early in the day. I stand by that. Not avoiding the question, it's just that my response hasn't changed.

ItalianoVD, I was giving initial reads. I think it's fine to give reads, it's better than nothing and it's not harmful.

I picked Shelly because she was first on my list. Now that she's posting (seems like a time zone issue?), I will UNVOTE: Shelly and move my vote to VOTE: T-Bone.

[Redados]

alright so four hours in we are on page 3. That's great because activity is generally better for a game than non activity. but I want to reign in these posts that are suggesting that anyone who is not here yet has done anything wrong.

For the most part this site operates on deadlines that last from 1 to 2 weeks and prod ranges are 36 to 48 hours. The idea is that you can have a life where you sleep for 8 hours a day, work for 8 hours a day and aren't punished for not checking into the site over that time. Games with shorter deadlines and higher activity standards exist on this site and off, but while we're here in the newbie queue lets be tolerant of everyone who meets the 36 hour requirement to not be prodded.

Sorry, I may have gotten a little carried away! Thanks for the guidance!

Re: N0bleNoob, my first vote was RVS to get things started. I didn't feel like being on a wagon so early in the day. I stand by that. Not avoiding the question, it's just that my response hasn't changed.

ItalianoVD, I was giving initial reads. I think it's fine to give reads, it's better than nothing and it's not harmful.

I picked Shelly because she was first on my list. Now that she's posting (seems like a time zone issue?), I will UNVOTE: Shelly and move my vote to VOTE: T-Bone.

Ok so you didn't want to be on a wagon so early in the day, why? You took your vote off of GeniusGamer we all know that, but why do you care about how many votes are on Genius?
VOTE: Redados

I did not want to be on a wagon early in the day with no information. I stand by that. We "all know that". We have more information. I'm keeping a vote on T-Bone for now. I don't have any scumreads yet, so I'll keep a vote on the only person who hasn't posted. I have been informed by Porkens that 2 votes isn't close to day-ending and promotes discussion, so I don't feel too bad keeping a second vote on T-Bone.

[Redados]

I did not want to be on a wagon early in the day with no information. I stand by that. We "all know that". We have more information. I'm keeping a vote on T-Bone for now. I don't have any scumreads yet, so I'll keep a vote on the only person who hasn't posted. I have been informed by Porkens that 2 votes isn't close to day-ending and promotes discussion, so I don't feel too bad keeping a second vote on T-Bone.

TBone is a wagon yet you chose to keep your vote on him. What’s the difference?

T-Bone not a wagon, he only had two votes.

20

I would not want the day to end so early! We have ten whole days of discussion where we can gather more information

2 votes isn’t close to day ending, and pressure promotes discussion.

Since I went to sleep, more posting has happened. UNVOTE: T-Bone. I will catch up and then post more reads that we have more information now.

[Redados]

The only thing that I have seen Porkens do is openly investigate other players and controlling the conversation. Could it be that he is directing attention away from himself by controlling the topic instead of just observing?

It would be nice to see Porkens create content that is not just investigating and pushing. However, investigating and pushing is

good

, that is how we find information and contradictions, and that leads to finding scum.

[Redados]

Some reads:

N0bleNoob - Trying to push people to gain information. Has pushed Porkens about pushing, but funnily enough is also doing a lot of pushing. Pushing is good because it’s how we find information.

GeniusGamer - Originally, his posts don’t have a lot of content. He was making light observations but not really saying anything or pushing anyone. He is talking more now, but he is clearly still finding his footing. I’m getting serious “new player” vibes.

Porkens - Still doing a lot of pushing and being aggressive. This feels like a viable day one strategy to get more information out in the open.

[Redados]

It would be nice to see Porkens create content that is not just investigating and pushing. However, investigating and pushing is

good

, that is how we find information and contradictions, and that leads to finding scum.

Huh, what other form of content is there? Fluff?

I'm new to mafia, so I could be wrong, but in addition to pushing, I think there can be analysis or observations. The people pushing aren't posting too many analyses/observations, they're just pushing/questioning. Yes, that gets us information and yes, that's good. I think it's totally viable to do that on the first day especially given how early it is. But there is other content besides pushing and questioning.

[Redados]

This game has a lot of contradictory/head scratching posts and it’s pretty confusing to me so far as I don’t know if it’s coming from scum or from newbie town and why is Porkens being labeled as aggressive and pushing like it’s a bad thing. Redados and Shelly read him this way, but say it’s a “good” thing.

I kinda feel this way about it.

Here's how

I

feel about people being aggressive and pushing. It's not fun to have someone aggressively ask questions or question everything you say. Socially, that's not fun. I can see why someone would label it a bad thing, especially if they're new.

However, we won't find scum if we don't push/question. If someone posts a contradiction or weak logic and no one follows up on it, we are (a) letting scum walk unchecked or (b) letting town play poorly, neither of which is optimal.

[Redados]

152 - While I agree with your frustration, I think that your actions may have come across as hypocritical. Porkens is an SE. That doesn't mean his play is guaranteed to be good, but I think it means that he is more likely to be aware of what he is doing and using that strategy on purpose.

However, your reaction in questioning Porkens back isn't harmful, since more aggression and pushing is good for the game regardless. No harm no foul

[Redados]

I am going to ISO and give my thoughts:

ShellyC - The first half of her posts were very observational. She was repeating what other people were saying. However, she is now having more original thoughts and ideas. Shelly is a new player. read?

N0bleNoob - Did some early pushing. Has stopped pushing. read?

MiniMegabyte - Shelly is right that a good chunk of Mini’s posts consist of her saying “I’m new” or “I’m confused”. Now that Shelly and Mini are going back and forth, we’re getting our first real glimpse at Mini, so we’re getting more info. I’m getting defensive-new player vibes from Mini right now, based on her reaction to Shelly’s call out. Mini, if someone calls you out for not contributing a lot of game-advancing content, consider adding more game-advancing content instead of being defensive. There’s still plenty of time to catch up and contribute!

ItalianoVD - He has been active. I think his posting leaves a little bit more to be desired. I’m getting slight scumvibes but nothing concrete.

GeniusGamer - The first half of his posts were fluffy and didn’t say much. Then, Porkens was able to push him to say more. I am glad Porkens did that because we were able to actually get him to talk and contribute. We need to hear more from GeniusGamer!

Micc - Micc is obviously in teaching mode. In the first half of his posts, he was asking questions to teach the reasoning behind his actions. He has a goofy interaction with T-Bone, and then had to explain that interaction. And that’s it! I would like to hear more from Micc on who he thinks we should lynch today and why.

Porkens - Porkens has been pushy and aggressive, and that was great once she used this to get GeniusGamer to open up a little bit. Pretty much all of their posts have been questions. I’ve given my thoughts on this already.

T-Bone - T-Bone has posted a little bit. He is asking questions, teaching, but not much else so far. I am not sure what I want to see from him right now.

VOTE: ItalianoVD

[Redados]

Better than you barely posting in the RVS. Yeah okay could be a Timezone thing but what if you wanted to see everyone else post first and then come in so you had a start on where to go? Seems a little sus to me.

(I don't know where Shelly is in Asia, I'm going to use Beijing time for simplicity)

The first post by a player (Porkens) in the thread was at 3:23 pm Central Time (4:23am in Beijing). Shelly's first post was at 8pm Central Time (9 am in Beijing). I don't think that's suspicious that she waited until 9 am to post.

[Redados]

My main suspects for now are those accusing others of being scum, it seems to me a good way to keep yourself from being seen as scum if you accuse others of being the same.

By this logic, how do we find scum if we never accuse anyone of being scum? Or maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're trying to say here

[Redados]

ItalianoVD - He has been active. I think his posting leaves a little bit more to be desired. I’m getting slight scumvibes but nothing concrete.

Any particular posts or actions that stand out to you? What are the slight scum vibes?

I don't agree with your basis of what looks scummy. I don't think that some of the things you have called out as suspicious are indeed suspicious. This may not be malicious on your part, if you're town.

When other people are aggressive, I either agree with their line of questioning, or it reads very obvious to me as newbie play. Your pushing doesn't make me feel like either of those do. If I continue to feel this way, I'll try to flesh out these ideas more.

[Redados]

If I had to just guess at who I think is scum, I’d say it’s Redados based on overall posting and listing a reads list on page 2 before everyone posted and being unprompted. almost like a “Look At Me I’m So Town” Wasn’t needed and seemed forced, but that’s just me. Others may see it differently.

I am town. I want people to know that I am town.
If I were scum, I would want people to think that I am town.

I want to be open because I have nothing to hide, so I did a reads list early. I'll try to continue to give reads as my thoughts and opinions develop.

It's definitely possible that I'm compensating for my most recent game of mafia (which was several years ago), where I made occasional, one sentence posts, and did not really contribute to the discussion. I ended up replacing out. I want to be active and present and help find the wolves/mafia.

[Redados]

Who has reads this early?

VOTE: Redados

And why’d you pick out Shelly? Why not N0blenoob or T-Bone?

I thought that you jumped on me a little quick, with little basis in why you jumped on me. You pushed because I wanted to play the game and participate in the game? And how I chose which of the three inactives to vote for?

It's totally fair to push someone, even if it doesn't make 100% logical sense, just to see how they react and gain more information that way. However, these were both relatively innocuous things, and the early reads item seems like something that you are still hung up on, which seems strange to me.

[Redados]

Had to clear up the quoting in 192.

I don't agree with your basis of what looks scummy. I don't think that some of the things you have called out as suspicious are indeed suspicious. This may not be malicious on your part, if you're town.

Okay, that’s fair. With that being said, just like you said to N0bleNoob, if we don’t accuse people with pressure and with what we think is scummy then how are we going to catch scum? Whether we agree with it or not it’s what people see or feel.

I think it's fine to put pressure on people. I think it's fine that you called plays and players out as suspicious. However, there have been multiple times where I disagreed with your basis of suspicion.

Noblenoob said it was scummy to call people scum. I disagree with that. That is separate from what I am describing with you.

[Redados]

The problem I see with having post based reads is that they are not alignment indicative so it’s not a real solid way to read players.

This has already been responded to by others, but this was pretty sketch. We shouldn't do post-based reads? I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume that you are giving feedback that reads should have more opinions on alignment.

Either I’m missing something in your argument, or you’re missing something in mine. Everyone is either town or scum. I provided a reason why he would do it as town and a reason why he would do it as scum. I could do that for basically any action that anyone carried out. My approach is to analyze what players do.

It is to understand what they would do in certain situations and why they would do what they have already done.

I get your analysis, but you have no idea what certain players would do in a given situation. Sure you can speculate, but that’s all it is, speculation.

This is the basis of the game. I think your response here was unhelpful.

Those are my thoughts on you for now! It could definitely change.

[Redados]

My main suspects for now are those accusing others of being scum, it seems to me a good way to keep yourself from being seen as scum if you accuse others of being the same.

By this logic, how do we find scum if we never accuse anyone of being scum? Or maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're trying to say here

I think at this point in the game it would be very early to think that another person is scum, because of the early stage of the game there can be no built up evidence that supports any ones accusations.

Okay, I see what you're saying. You're saying "it seems to me a good way to keep yourself from being seen as scum if you accuse others of being the same

this early in the game

". Thanks for clarifying.

[Redados]

Does anyone want to ask me questions?

Who do you think is scum?

[Redados]

Can someone explain how lynching works? Is it majority by the end of the day, or does it go to No Lynch if we don't get five votes?

Also, it's correct to lynch on the first day, right? Like, statistically?

[Redados]

Each day is a chance for town to kill, and each night is a chance for mafia to kill. So by not killing, we give up a chance to kill a mafia while letting the mafia get an extra chance to kill town, so that's bad to not lynch, I think.

[Redados]

I am not using the V/LA system because it says it only works for three days minimum, but I will be moving tomorrow and Sunday. I'm not sure how often I will be able to be active on here. I will try to check in, but at the the latest I will catch up Sunday night or Monday morning.

[Redados]

Shelly has some questionable logic and she and red have a weird synergy going on. Mostly it’s Shelly shadowing red on certain things but there’s a touch of reciprocation. Red has also given some questionable justifications.

I went back and ISO'd myself, and the only place where I went to bat for Shelly was when I called out Mini for calling Shelly scum for being inactive at 4 AM. But I don't see anything else?

I would like to hear any questionable justifications I've had! I am happy to accept feedback and improve in terms of logic and finding scum.

[Redados]

Some reads:

N0bleNoob - Trying to push people to gain information. Has pushed Porkens about pushing, but funnily enough is also doing a lot of pushing. Pushing is good because it’s how we find information.

GeniusGamer - Originally, his posts don’t have a lot of content. He was making light observations but not really saying anything or pushing anyone. He is talking more now, but he is clearly still finding his footing. I’m getting serious “new player” vibes.

Porkens - Still doing a lot of pushing and being aggressive. This feels like a viable day one strategy to get more information out in the open.

@GeniusGamer (post 136) Ah. I understand now, it's absolutely great to have preliminary reads.

Some reads:
ItalianoVD: Seems pretty active and was pushing GeniusGamer, which is an alright sus at this stage in my opinion, for his wording.
GeniusGamer: Was pushed and defence is average. Sounds like a fellow newbie. He's starting to talk more though. Needs a closer look.
Porkens: Very aggressive and pushing people, which is how we get info. Strongest townread for now.
MiniMegabyte: newbie vibes, kinda on the quiet side, says he's lost, maybe a little scumleaning here not sure.
Redados, Micc and T-Bone, though posting, haven't posted a ton of game-advancing stuff. (though I understand work commitments etc.)

It’s weird how similar these are.

Putting this here for reference.

What do you think of that Shelly readslist I quoted with yours?

I posted in post 134, and Shelly posted in post 142. This means that I didn't copy Shelly; Shelly "copied" me. I don't know how I can defend myself when someone formats their post similar to me *after* me.

However, looking through the thread (and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong), the first three "reads lists" are

1) Redados in post 43
2) Redados in post 134
3) ShellyC in post 142

It looks like this is Shelly's first game, so imagine that in her first game, she sees two reads list. It makes logical sense that she would base her first reads list off of the first two that she saw. I am obviously not able to speak for her, though.

[Redados]

@red: do you believe shelly’s claim that she didn’t read your post before she made her readslist?

Shelly's claim below for reference:

Shelly has some questionable logic and she and red have a weird synergy going on. Mostly it’s Shelly shadowing red on certain things but there’s a touch of reciprocation. Red has also given some questionable justifications.

Mini mega could

Those reads being similar to Redados isn't a thing I can control, I hadn't read that post and it's probably just a coincidence. Redados gave 3 reads, I gave reads of all active players.
Also idk what interactions were "partner-like" to you.

Yeah, I don't know if I believe that she "hadn't read the post," considering they were three hours apart. I still think my explanation for why her post would have mirrored mine makes sense, even if she wasn't conscious of it.

[Redados]

Everyone's reads so far (I tried my best, I may have missed some things):

ShellyC
59 - leans town on Redados, says GeniusGamer hasn’t been productive
108 - thinks Porkens isn’t scum
142 - Gives read on ItalianoVD which I don’t understand (?), reads town on Porkens, leaning scum on MiniMegabyte
160 - town vibes from T-Bone
170 - scum vibes from MiniMegabyte
277 - scum reads from Micc

N0bleNoob
107 - suggests that Porkens is pushing away attention from themself
185 - suspects those who call other people scum
248 - thinks that Shelly and MiniMegabyte voting for each other is supsicious

MiniMegabyte
176 - expressed suspicion on ShellyC for being inactive initially
225 - Leans town on Italiano, neutral on ShellyC

ItalianoVD
127 - says he doesn’t like GeniusGamer’s responses
129 - thinks Micc sounds like town
187 - Thinks T-Bone is town, thinks MiniMegabyte is town, thinks ShellyC is town. Likes N0bleNoob’s posting. Leans scum on GeniusGamer and Redados
193 - Reiterates ShellyC townie read
241 - leaning town on Micc

Redados
43 - gave “reads” on everyone but with no information in retrospect it’s kind of useless
134 - commented on GeniusGamer for not having content in his posts
174 - commented on ShellyC for having initial posts that were mostly observational and repetitive of what others were saying, commented on MiniMegabyte constantly saying that she was new or confused, commented on getting scumvibes from ItalianoVD, commented on initial fluff from GeniusGamer, commented on how Porkens’ pushing is good.
190, 196, & 199 - elaborated on scumvibes from ItalianoVD

GeniusGamer
44 - considering a wagon on ShellyC
240 - scummy vibes from MiniMegabyte

Micc -
32 - feels ItalianoVD’s posting is harmful
234 - comments on how Shelly’s pushed haven’t been useful, comments on N0bleNoob possibly being scum, comments on Mini misrepresenting her contributions to the game, says ItalianoVD feels town, says he doesn’t feel that Redados’ push was justified, says GeniusGamer was not really memorable, says that T-Bone’s actions don’t seem town-like.

Porkens

208 - Feels Micc is pro-town, initially suspicious of ItalianoVD
247 - Pinged by T-Bone, offput by GeniusGamer, calls Italiano inconsistent, calls Shelly out for questionable logic, calls Shelly and Redados out for synergy, calls MiniMegabyte out for possibly being mafia based on “confused noob” posts.
288 - leaning towards Shelly being scum

T-Bone

93 - says GeniusGamer’s post looks scummy
264 - thinks Micc is mafia, elaborates in post 291

I want to fill in holes here, so here are my thoughts and questions related to the lists above:

ShellyC hasn’t given thoughts on N0bleNoob, but she’s had thoughts on everyone else at some point. ShellyC, what are your thoughts on N0bleNoob?

N0bleNoob hasn’t really had any opinions on anyone. He’s cast doubt on Porkens’ methods of pushing and called Shelly and Mini suspicious. This looks pretty sketch to me. N0bleNoob, what are your thoughts on everyone?

MiniMegabyte is someone who I NEED to hear more from. She’s been active but not really moving the game forward. Mini, please share your thoughts on who you suspect is scum.

ItalianoVD - what do you think of Porkens’ alignment?

GeniusGamer - you need to call people out and have thoughts and opinions. You are playing very passively. I want to see you post more and think more.

Micc - what are your thoughts on GeniusGamer and Porkens?

Porkens - what are your thoughts on N0bleNoob?

T-Bone - you’ve expressed suspicion re: GeniusGamer and Micc. Do you still feel suspicious of GeniusGamer? If Micc is mafia, who is his partner?

[Redados]

After going through that, I'm going to share my gut alignment thoughts, which are in no order within lists:

Town:
ItalianoVD
Porkens
Redados
T-Bone

Neutral:
Micc

Suspicious:
ShellyC
N0bleNoob
MiniMegabyte
GeniusGamer

Obviously, right now, I am overly suspicious as there are not four mafia members in this game.

VOTE: N0bleNoob

[Redados]

Suspicious:
ShellyC
N0bleNoob
MiniMegabyte
GeniusGamer

Obviously, right now, I am overly suspicious as there are not four mafia members in this game.

VOTE: N0bleNoob

Is there any particular reason why you voted for N0bleNoob?

I ISOd him to create my post. While doing that, I noticed that he was initially hesitant to give opinions where he would cast suspicion on someone (after RVS). When he has given opinions on people, I disagree with his logic. For example, he cast suspicion on ShellyC and MiniMegabyte for voting and unvoting for each other. I do get scummy vibes from those two right now, but I don't agree with his logic on why.

Most people are giving opinions on what they think the alignment of others is. If it's harder for scum to do that, that jives with the actions and posts of N0bleNoob.

I want to hear him give more thoughts and opinions on the alignment of others.

[Redados]

What changed in your read for me that makes you think I’m town now?

And in your suspicious reads, who do you think is

more

likely to be partners out of the 4?

The alignment list was based on gut after spending the time ISOing everyone and looking at who they had given opinions on. When I voted for you, I didn't agree with the logic of what you had said. Since then, I've seen you push in healthy ways and I'm following your logic more.

I really don't know. If ShellyC is scum, I don't know who her partner is because so many of her posts are just repeating or synthesizing what has already been said by others. She has given thoughts on everyone except N0bleNoob. So maybe N0bleNoob? Except that he hasn't really made a lot of content either so it's probably easy to forget to talk about him.

N0bleNoob has talked about practically nobody, so I can't figure out who his partner would be, either. He really needs to talk. It's hard to see what his reads are and what people's reads on him are when he isn't participating.

MiniMegabyte is in the same category where she has given reads on Shelly and you (ItalianoVD) and no one else.

Same with GeniusGamer.

After typing this all out, N0bleNoob, Mini, and GeniusGamer are all in the same category of being passive, not being aggressive, and that's what seems scummy to me. It's also frustrating because I would like to hear more from them.

[Redados]

So my criticism of the play of GeniusGamer, MiniMegabyte, and N0bleNoob is that you aren't giving opinions on people. You don't have to be "aggressive" to say that you're think that X is scum and that Y is town. Tell us who you think is scum, who you think is town, and why.

[Redados]

So my criticism of the play of GeniusGamer, MiniMegabyte, and N0bleNoob is that you aren't giving opinions on people. You don't have to be "aggressive" to say that you're think that X is scum and that Y is town. Tell us who you think is scum, who you think is town, and why.

To be fair, you did say this.

After typing this all out, N0bleNoob, Mini, and GeniusGamer are all in the same category of being passive,

not being aggressive, and that's what seems scummy to me.

It's also frustrating because I would like to hear more from them.

How else are they supposed to take it?

That's fair. By be aggressive, I don't mean aggressive with your tone. It means take action, don't be afraid to have opinions and thoughts, get some skin into the game. Sorry if that was confusing or contradictory. You should be able to have opinions on players without having an "aggressive playstyle".

[Redados]

Redados, why did you vote for N0bleNoob out of the 4?

I answered this question in post 296.

[Redados]

Redados, you think N0ble, genius and GeniusGamer have been passive, but I'm a SR though not labeled as "passive". Any reason for this?

The thing about Micc is they have been passive and not really making reads, after looking in ISO.

Yeah, my read on you is different from my read on the other three. The other three are laying low by not giving opinions on alignment, whereas you are giving opinions but a lot of it has been rehashing of what other people are saying.

That list was made based on gut after ISOing everyone, it could change.

[Redados]

This:

Incredibly sorry for not posting yet because of my timezone. I'm new to forum mafia and according to what I know this is still a stage of random voting.
So as town we've got to progress from the RVS into actual leads and discussion.

VOTE: T-Bone

for being a silent guy.

is a rehash of this:

Here are my (very) initial reads:

ShellyC - hasn’t posted

T-Bone - hasn’t posted

VOTE: ShellyC because it’s time for everyone to be talking!

She sees someone else voting for inactivity, she votes for inactivity.

This:

Micc seems to be pocketing T-Bone in post 74.

is a rehash of this:

i just spent an entire post defending your not being here for the last five hours and you vote me

i feel betrayed

Pls don't pocket me. Because it will work. But then I will shame you for it.

She isn't adding anything, she's just repeating something she read.

Our two reads here are the same (edited out other reads for brevity):

Some reads:

GeniusGamer - Originally, his posts don’t have a lot of content. He was making light observations but not really saying anything or pushing anyone. He is talking more now, but he is clearly still finding his footing. I’m getting serious “new player” vibes.

Porkens - Still doing a lot of pushing and being aggressive. This feels like a viable day one strategy to get more information out in the open.

@GeniusGamer (post 136) Ah. I understand now, it's absolutely great to have preliminary reads.

Some reads:
GeniusGamer: Was pushed and defence is average. Sounds like a fellow newbie. He's starting to talk more though. Needs a closer look.
Porkens: Very aggressive and pushing people, which is how we get info. Strongest townread for now.

This:

@N0blenoob (post 184 / 201): How are we supposed to scumhunt without asking questions and suspecting others? Town's wincon is to eliminate all the scum and would push their scumreads and vote them. Mafia is supposed to seem town, not be town. They do not need to push scum.

Town is supposed to be the proactive side trying to find scum. Without questioning others, even at this early stage, how can we find and vote the mafia? "No evidence". We get evidence from QUESTIONING and INTERACTION.

is really similar to this:

My main suspects for now are those accusing others of being scum, it seems to me a good way to keep yourself from being seen as scum if you accuse others of being the same.

By this logic, how do we find scum if we never accuse anyone of being scum? Or maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're trying to say here

Here she hops on a Micc wagon after T-Bone says this:

Tbone can you elaborate on that question? It does not make much sense to me.

Sorry. That was a little facetious of me. I actually think Micc is mafia right now, and I was just trying to make the awkward transition from RVS vote to serious one.

Micc is quite scummy to me, they haven't been contributing much as an SE. Also her reads post were SRing almost everyone, which is fairly suspect.

VOTE: Micc

After going through all of Shelly's post, I stand by my initial impression that she was synthesizing and repeating, but I acknowledge that the argument is weak and more something to keep an eye out for/reasoning for my gut reaction rather than being evidence for elimination.

[Redados]

Sometimes people don't post for reasons unrelated to the game. Don't get yourself in the habit of analyzing activity on Mafiascum, Minimegabyte. It's a bad habit, and will usually lead people to getting upset, and it will not help you find scum.

Okay makes sense sorry as I said trough it was just a thought that popped into my head and wanted to sorta just get it out as people want me to start speaking my mind a lot more

Post a full reads list! Make a list that includes all eight players that aren't yourself. Go back through the thread or ISO and give your thoughts on everyone. Tell us how you think they've been playing, what makes you suspicious, what you don't like, who you think is scum, and why.

[Redados]

@red, no I don’t think it’s that weak. She is definitely sheeping reads, which could very well be a scum player who’s having trouble forming town-like thoughts on the game.

Yes and no, because in my head it ended up being a lower percentage of her posts than I remembered it being. She did have plenty of original thoughts.

Also, am I correct that it's also a noob thing to sheep reads too? That seems like something I tried to do in my first game was try to say SOMETHING and I didn't have original thoughts because I was pretty new to the game.

[Redados]

Italiano, I think it's totally fair that you feel that way and I'm fine with you leaving your vote on me. Feel free to ask me questions and I will continue to be honest and open.

[Redados]

I think that it's ~2 AM wherever Shelly is, so she probably won't be able to respond right away.

[Redados]

I'm glad we made it this far without needing a replacement. GeorgeBailey, will the day be extended for the replacement to catch up?

[Redados]

I haven't read a lot of games, but I read a game where three or four people had to be replaced on day one. It made everything much harder to keep track of and follow.

[Redados]

I read the (completed) game Newbie 2005 in which ItalianoVD was town. He replaced in and immediately was lynched, but he posted a lot and it seems pretty similar to how he's been playing here.

I think that ItalianoVD is town.

This seems like a useful tool, albeit time-consuming. Do any SEs have advice for reading completed games to get information in this way?

[Redados]

Our day is going to be a little longer because (correct me if I'm wrong) Micc and N0bleNoob both get replacements, and we should probably hear those replacements out before we lynch. We'll see if Shelly has to replace out too

[Redados]

@T-Bone, is there any particular reason you're keeping reads close to your chest? Do you not like to do big reads lists of everyone? I want to hear more from you

[Redados]

Your words made me chuckle. I like your word choice. I had to look up orthopraxy. You're definitely right that that's what I'm focused on. Hopefully as I get more experience, I'll be able to feel things out a little better and more spontaneously. I don't feel like I know another way to play right now. I'll keep working on it.

I think you ended up contributing more in one post that N0bleNoob has the whole game! My vote on N0bleNoob was to pressure him to contribute, so I feel comfortable with

UNVOTE

.

We probably need to consolidate to lynch within the next couple of days, right now it's looking like me? I suggest someone else, of course

[Redados]

Votecount 1.7

Redados(2)

~ ItalianoVD(53), N0bleNoob(18)

shellyc(1)

~ Porkens(62)

N0bleNoob(1)

~ Redados(49)

MiniMegabyte(1)

~ Micc(19)

Micc(1)

~ T-Bone(27)


Not Voting (3): shellyc(43), MiniMegabyte(33), GeniusGamer(61)

With 9 alive it takes 5 to eliminate.

Day 1 deadline is currently Frozen at 2 days

MOD REMINDERS

Deadline frozen until I find a replacement for Micc

If this vote count is still accurate, I think it's funny/interesting that none of the current votes are from later than page three. All these votes have stuck since basically the beginning of the game.

[Redados]

Italiano can I ask why you see Redados as scum? I may have missed it I would ask noblenoob the same but atm he’s been prodded and hasn’t posted

Initially he posted a readslist on page 2. This was after he had gotten some heat for inviting GeniusGamer in RVS. For me it seemed like he was trying to look town and I even mentioned that it was something that had some history of being done so it wasn’t me just making something up. Then he didn’t care for my push on him but was okay with everyone else pushing others. Voted for me, which I thought was kinda OMGUS, but not as blatant as it was with you and Shellyc. I thought that was a bit contradictory. Then his 180 on me without much reason except gut. I’m usually suspicious of people who do 180s on me regardless of where their they think my alignment leans.

With all that said, while I don’t see a reason to not keep my vote here. I am a little less uneasy about Redados as I was the first half of the game. Not sure, but I may or may not be voting for him the closer it gets to the deadline.

Not sure if this was a true 180, since I last expressed suspicion on you on July 16th, then read you as town 100 posts later on July 20th. I think it's okay to feel differently after four days and seeing you post more.

[Redados]

ItalianoVD and ShellyC have both read me as suspicious for reversing my position on ItalianoVD from scumread to townread. They've also both mentioned my OMGUS vote on Italiano. N0bleNoob voted for me on page three and never unvoted (until you unvoted) from how I voted in RVS.

I won't apologize for reading Italiano as scum early in the game. Now that everything is more fleshed out and I've read two of his earlier games I am feeling like he is town. My vote may have been a little OMGUS but it was one hundred posts after Italiano's vote, so I don't see a huge problem with it. I'm not scared of having votes on me. I'm an open book and I have nothing to hide. I've been active, I've made pushes, I've tried to move the game forward and create content. That's all I can do.

[Redados]

Votecount 1.7

Redados(2)

~ ItalianoVD(53), N0bleNoob(18)

shellyc(1)

~ Porkens(62)

N0bleNoob(1)

~ Redados(49)

MiniMegabyte(1)

~ Micc(19)

Micc(1)

~ T-Bone(27)


Not Voting (3): shellyc(43), MiniMegabyte(33), GeniusGamer(61)

With 9 alive it takes 5 to eliminate.

Day 1 deadline is currently Frozen at 2 days

MOD REMINDERS

Deadline frozen until I find a replacement for Micc

After this, N0bleNoob/SJReaver unvoted, and so did I. GeniusGamer voted for me. So unofficial vote count is as follows:

Redados - 2
ShelllyC - 1
MiniMegabyte - 1
Micc - 1

Italian-guy

is town - he is the most towniest person in this thread. Open, engaged, flexible, and spontaneous. It's like watching a puppy-dog play in the snow.

I can't get this line out of my head this morning, it keeps repeating over and over again. I enjoyed this.

[Redados]

I just isoed red to see what taht was about. before sharing a opinion on red, first I want u to address somethin:
U said u read 2 Italianos games to solidify ur opinion. Firs of all, u already stated u thought italiano was town before, when he first pushed. Did u read it at that point? If not, why did u find the need to search for previous games of Italiano?
Finally, why those changed ur opinion? Care to elaborate what u found and why it is consistent with town Italiano?

Order of operations:
-I read Italiano as scum
-I read Italiano as town
-(I read one of Italiano's games)
-I post that I read one of Italiano's games and that I think he's town
-(I read Italiano's other game)
-I post that I read on of Italiano's other games and that I think he's town.

I hope that was enough that you feel ready to share your opinion on me.

[Redados]

Okay, so now you've devolved into...baiting? Please don't, this is a newbie game. I'm requesting that SE to SE, regardless of your alignment, or mine.

You’re making it sound like baiting is so terrible in newbie games specifically that it shouldn’t be done in them. I’m starting to notice a difference between the perception of newbies and SEs. Not to mention that you don’t really decide what tactics other players use...

Baiting shouldn't be done at all, to be fair. Praytell, did you find that post in question productive? If so, why?

Is this what you're referring to? From the wiki:

"Quickhammer baiting is a tactic used in LyLo with multiple scum alive, to catch them in the act of attempting to stage a quickhammer."

I am lacking the vocab to understand this interaction 100%

[Redados]

I just isoed red to see what taht was about. before sharing a opinion on red, first I want u to address somethin:
U said u read 2 Italianos games to solidify ur opinion. Firs of all, u already stated u thought italiano was town before, when he first pushed. Did u read it at that point? If not, why did u find the need to search for previous games of Italiano?
Finally, why those changed ur opinion? Care to elaborate what u found and why it is consistent with town Italiano?

Order of operations:
-I read Italiano as scum
-I read Italiano as town
-(I read one of Italiano's games)
-I post that I read one of Italiano's games and that I think he's town
-(I read Italiano's other game)
-I post that I read on of Italiano's other games and that I think he's town.

I hope that was enough that you feel ready to share your opinion on me.

there r still 2 points I want:
1. WHY did u read his games (and there is no correct answer; just give me ur thought process on why it was worthwhile to invest time on reading one of his ganes)
2. What did u see on those games, maybe in a broad way, to make u think he was more townie for this

1. This game was moving very slowly at the time, not a lot of activity, so I read three games: two Italiano games and one Porkens game. I wanted to learn more.
2. Italiano in both games (and he was town in both ways) speaks and writes the same way. He has short points with his semi-spontaneous thoughts and he has long posts where he quotes people and speaks with them point by point. In both games, he makes the same sort of pushes on people. In general, I see a lot of similarities between his two town games and his current game.

The second Italiano game I read was also MiniMegabyte's first game. In that game she also did the "I'm confused" thing, so that was disappointing to see that she was still doing that in this game. She was town in that game too. That game doesn't teach me about her alignment though, because even though she played similarly and she was town that game, she either is figuring things out is scum and figured out she can keep doing that, or she hasn't quite figured things out and she's town. So that's NAI.

The game I read of Porkens was a blitz game and he played COMPLETELY differently. In the current game, he is constantly pushing and asking questions, but in that blitz game he hung back and was pretty passive and not even super active. However, Porkens has been on this site a long time, and as T-Bone said earlier in this game the more experienced a player is, the worse that meta is. So of the hundred games that Porkens has played, I don't think I learn anything about Porkens' alignment either. Plus, Porkens style in this game where he pushes and makes everyone justify their words and their actions could just be a strategy for how he plays in newbie games (he plays in a lot of games, it's tough to sift through).

So after reading those three games, I'm starting to agree with T-Bone when he says that "meta is trash". I read three games, got AI, NAI, NAI on the three people I was keeping track of, so in relation to the time I spent, I didn't really learn much.

That said, I'll probably keep reading old games and thinking like this, because it's fun and I want to stay active and involved and keep learning while helping the town. So we'll see.

[Redados]

I'm scumreading GeniusGamer. Can someone else ISO him so I know I'm not crazy? He has said practically nothing this whole game despite posting a large amount of times.

Hesitant to vote for him because of OMGUS. But I said I was scumreading him in post #294 and I haven't seen much to change my mind since then.

On the other hand, if he is scum, I would have thought by now that his partner would have told him to correct his play. So idk. If he's scum, I don't think his partner is an SE.

[Redados]

After 458, now I’m completely lost. That didn’t sound like a scum driven post. Oy ve.

As I've been saying since the beginning, I'm town

who do u want on the gallows, porken?

Thanks for asking, i is of and made a readslist:

Italiano
SK/noob

Mini

Tbone
Shelly

Hat/mic

Genius

VOTE: genius[/v]

You didn't include me!

[Redados]

Sorry, I messed up the quoting in 474 somehow. I meant to quote Porkens and respond.

[Redados]

We still have two days left in Day One. I think Genius is the best elimination, but it makes me nervous how fast this wagon formed. Pretty nervous.

Even if Genius isn't scum, he's not someone I would want in LYLO.

That’s L-1 @Shelly.

L stands for lynch, E stands for elimination, and I think we're trying to say elimination instead of lynch when possible although it's not a rule.

GeniusGamer hasn't posted in about two hours, and last time he was one he had ZERO votes. Can we hold off on eliminating him until he has a chance to respond in some way?

[Redados]

Yes, wait for a claim. One thing is for sure, if genius does flip scum, none of the people who just voted for him are is prtner.

I don't think we can know that. If he flips scum, like I said before, I think the partner is inexperienced too, so all bets are off

[Redados]

Can someone give me the post they think defines Genius as scum? I don't need an ISO dive. What are we suddenly doing these votes now? What is the catalyst?

Have you ISOd him?

[Redados]

SJReavers, didn't Redados push Genius? Although he didn't go on the wagon in fear of OMGUS, but he definitely turned the tide towards Genius

Order of operations:

1. I post about scumreading Genius in post 463 (9:11 pm my time)
2. MiniMegabyte in post 464 says that she scumreads him too (9:14 pm my time)
3. In post 466, Porkens scumreads and (

V1

) votes for GeniusGamer (9:24 pm my time)
4. ItalianoVD (

V2

) in post 470 votes for GeniusGamer (9:28 pm my time)
5. In post 475, Shelly scumreads GeniusGamer (9:40 pm my time)
6. In post 479, (

V3

) MiniMegabyte votes for GeniusGamer (9:54 pm my time)
7. Shelly votes for Genius Gamer (

V4

) in post 480 (9:58 pm my time)

I have not voted. I will not vote right now because we haven't heard Genius' defense/flip. I still think Genius is the best elimination and I stand by my scumread of him.

[Redados]

Everyone should give their thoughts now that we've seen the response, and then we can decide whether to eliminate.

If what GG says is true, this is bad.

If what GG says is false, I do NOT want to talk about this extensively because it's bad for the town.

NO ONE give the final vote until we see what everyone says.

NO ONE VOTE YET.

[Redados]

Here's a thought I just had: if he's the mason, there's no point in saving him, right? Because the wolves will just kill him. Which would suck, I guess. But it's already lost because he already revealed. Is there a hole in this logic?

[Redados]

Since I’m the mason, saving me gives you a chance to eliminate mafia. I’ll certainly be dead by the next day phase. But if you get mafia now, it’ll be one mafia down and one town instead of two town. Of course, I’m assuming you believe me, and it seems like you don’t.

I want to see what everyone else has to say before I make my judgement.

[Redados]

I believe you, for what its worth.

It’s not worth a lot if you don’t tell us why you believe him.

Stop. Don't do this.

[Redados]

I believe you, for what its worth.

It’s not worth a lot if you don’t tell us why you believe him.

Stop. Don't do this.

Don’t do what?

Don't push people to roleclaim PRs.

[Redados]

I never posted a reads list at all. Also, my partner didn’t seem to be in too much danger. I never had a particular reason to defend them.

I wish you had posted a reads list.

[Redados]

I never posted a reads list at all. Also, my partner didn’t seem to be in too much danger. I never had a particular reason to defend them.

I wish you had posted a reads list.

Can you post a reads list please? It's not too late. You won't out your mason partner as long as you read multiple people as town.

[Redados]

I see my question implied that I wanted TBone to claim. No, that wasn’t my intention at all. I agree that there shouldn’t be a counterclaim. I wanted TBone to explain why he believed him. I assume if I didn’t ask him he wouldn’t have given us 549.

Thanks for clearing that up. I think that's fair. I think everyone should give their thoughts on whether they believe GeniusGamer, but we proceed very carefully beyond that as to not out PRs.

[Redados]

I believe him because Mason is the worst fakeclaim for mafia at L-1. Because at this point there's no reason not to Lim him unless his Mason partner claims. I'm not saying the partner needs to do it. But now that he's claimed it, we have to test it. And because we have to test it, makes it a bad move for the mafia. It's a little wine in front of me (WIFOM) but not really.

So given all that, is it better for town for the partner to come forward?

This would make the mafia have to waste two nightkills on the two masons, which protects everyone else. It also gives us a better chance to find the two mafia during the day today and tomorrow because POE gets a little easier.

If GG is lying and is mafia, that would force the other mafia to claim mason, which we would help us down the line I think because if we catch one mafia, we've caught the other.

If the mafia realize this and the two masons claim and then DON'T get nightkilled because the mafia knows that would make them look like mafia, then I don't know. That's where it gets a little WIFOM-y?

I'm kind of stuck in terms of what to do.

[Redados]

If I were GeniusGamer, I would not have claimed Mason except to make us feel bad. He forces someone to counterclaim or claim Mason, and by outing himself yeah wait a minute, I don't think that did help the town. I think that's been the theme of GeniusGamer's posting, unfortunately. That's a really good point, Italiano.

[Redados]

GG's post was just meant to guilt-trip and appeal to emotion to make us feel bad for making him flip. That's how it made me feel.

If I were him, I would have given a final reads list, my final thoughts etc to try and help as much as possible before being eliminated. Maybe show something that I had crumbed or explained using my past posts why I am a townie. I don't think I would have taken the approach that GG would have.

[Redados]

It's not time wasting. Italiano wanted to know if it was possible for mafia to fakeclaim Masons. That is a valid concern.

Thanks for explaining this, I hadn't realized it was an autoloss.

[Redados]

It's not time wasting. Italiano wanted to know if it was possible for mafia to fakeclaim Masons. That is a valid concern.

It is.

But he was also shooting a bunch of questions about the situation at Genius and I. It takes Genius while to compose his thoughts, and if I start in about what's happened, it could lead to its own discussion.

We have five active townies on right now. We could get someone to e-1 easily right now.

Who do you suggest?

[Redados]

Here's my readlist:

Town:
SJReaver
GeniusGamer
ItalianoVD

Null:
Porkens
T-Bone
Hat Guy

Scum and/or Confused Townie:
ShellyC
MiniMegabyte

I would prefer to vote for Shelly or Mini today. Mini less likely to be scum than Shelly imo

[Redados]

I could be convinced to vote for Word321/Hat Guy today, but we've really only seen him have the one interaction when he entered. I would like to hear more from him. Or maybe he is laying low on purpose.

[Redados]

Hey guys, starting to meta dive Hat Guy/word321's open game 784 to try to get a meta read on him. One thing that sticks out to me is that he looooves meta. He's quoting games and stuff just like he's kind of mentioned here. Just on initial observation.

I am confused on why you and Shelly both call him Hat Guy and have everyone else's name down perfectly. I feel this is something I need to look into because I legit can't remember half this stuff but word321 sticks in my mind.

I'm not sure, he's in my mind as Hat Guy. I think it might be replacement thing because you're in my head as Sunflower Guy too, I can't remember your username either, I have to check every time. I was able to remember everyone's username initially but my brain gets confused by replacements.

[Redados]

Gotcha! I may forget, it would be helpful if you could put your pronouns in your profile although not necessary of course

[Redados]

I'll VOTE: Shelly as well.

[Redados]

That's E-2

[Redados]

We're at E-1! I feel like with time zones we should hopefully see a response from Shelly within the next ten hours or so.

[Redados]

Hi Shelly! Feel free to take a few hours to catch up and respond, a lot has happened

[Redados]

Alright so with these new events in mind. I can assume:

Town:
Genius
SJReaver
Myself
Porkens
TBone
Mini
Red

That leaves Shelly and Word (Micc) as scum

This list? how can you be sure that almost all are town at d1

We're pretty sure GeniusGamer and SJReaver are town here. If they are mafia then they will autolose. They're practically cleared.

[Redados]

I don’t believe you.

Let's come back to this later because I'm not sure if I like this. My initial impression when I saw this was that Porkens was trying to imply that he had a PR that made the mason claim impossible, but couldn't claim.

Scum!Porkens would have been going for the mislynch. Town!Porkens would just be putting pressure on GeniusGamer to see how he would react. That second one is in line with how Porkens has been playing so far, but I think this is my least favorite thing I've seen Porkens do in this game.

[Redados]

Hey guys, starting to meta dive Hat Guy/word321's open game 784 to try to get a meta read on him. One thing that sticks out to me is that he looooves meta. He's quoting games and stuff just like he's kind of mentioned here. Just on initial observation.

I finished reading Hat Guy's game. So, my thoughts here are twofold:

1) Hat Guy likes to play meta. He likes to throw around previous games in points he's making. The fact that he's aware of meta makes him harder to read based on meta. In general, I think it's harder to read SEs based on meta. But he also has a March 2020 join date, so he hasn't been here THAT long. So I am still going to try to meta-read him.

2) If I had to make a decision based on comparing the two games, I would place him as scum this game. He's been considerably less active in this game, but more importantly, he's also been considerably less helpful. In the game I read (where he was town), he threw around stats and went into different scenarios. It felt very analytical. I imagine that town!Word321 would be more helpful and active and giving more opinions. He's posted enough to not get prodded in this game but the type of help and content he's been giving isn't consistent with the game I read. However, that could just be a measure of inactivity. Inactivity =/= scum normally, but in this case it might make sense?

3) I am not a fan of his spelling/grammar lol

[Redados]

I think that I would be happy on the ShellyC or Word321 wagon today.

Shelly's respond wasn't super motivating in regards to getting me to unvote. That was a bummer. However, based on what Word said regarding his activity today, I don't think we'll get any posts from him that proves his townie-ness to me, either.

I am keeping my vote on Shelly for now.

[Redados]

Word is at three votes and Shelly is at four votes, if I'm counting right. Five votes is elimination.

Current Claims:

shellyc - Vanilla Townie
N0bleNoob/SJReaver - Mason
MiniMegabyte
ItalianoVD
Redados
GeniusGamer - Mason
Micc/Word321
Porkens
T-Bone

[Redados]

I feel like Red didn't want to elim him because it'd look like OMGUS, which is focusing on appearance. Town would vote out their sus at all costs.

This is fair and I totally see why it would have come off this way.

What happened is, that I was like "Genius is sus, anyone agree?" and then within the next hour FOUR people voted Genius. I was not going to hammer without a claim so I couldn't just vote. And I said publicly that I still felt Genius was the best lynch at that point.

I'm feeling like between Porkens and Mini, Mini is more likely to be scum. I'm coming down a little on my townread of Porkens though post-Genius-stuff.

[Redados]

Tell me why word321 doesn't crack your suspect list Red.

He does, I was just responding to Shelly's post specifically sorry.

I'm having newbie decision paralysis. It's emotionally tough for me to make decisions that have in-game consequences. I just logged back in to vote Word321.

VOTE: Word321

[Redados]

That puts Shelly at E-2 and Word at E-1. I am sorry for swinging back and forth. I have been thinking about this this morning.

[Redados]

I was tunneling Shelly, I read the Word game, and after sitting on it, I am voting for Word.

IRL I like to make very conservative decisions, ie not gambling, because I don't like

losing

when I could have avoided the loss by not playing at all. I feel the same way about a mislim. I am irrationally afraid of a mislim.

[Redados]

T-Bone, do you believe that we will lynch Porkens today?

[Redados]

Thanks guys. I didn't mistype, but I did misread the vote count thinking that T-Bone had voted for Porkens, and I wanted to ask T-Bone about that.

Now that I am reminded that it's a Porkens vote for T-Bone, I don't have as many questions.

[Redados]

Intent to hammer Word321.

Porkens isn’t voting for TBone.

??

[Redados]

WIFOM

Spoiler: 0 - An example

If you are unfamiliar with WIFOM or meta levels, which I doubt many here are, this is for you!

To illustrate a WIFOM scenario, here is an example using the common scenario of a scum player providing a read on a fellow scum member - each number represents a meta level a person can operate on.

• lvl 0 - Town read your partner in an attempt to keep them alive
  lvl 1 - Scum read your partner, anticipating that others will think you were operating from level 0. Thus, if you flip scum, your buddy will be cleared, as scum wants to townread their partner on the 0th level meta.
  lvl 2 - Town read your partner, anticipating that people would think you would want to distance from your partner by scum reading them using level 1 logic.
  lvl 3 - Scum read your partner, anticipating people thinking you are operating from level 2

And so on....

You can see that in this example, all even (or odd) meta levels lead to the same outcomes - this happens with binary scenarios (i.e. the wine can be placed in front of either you or me), but gets more complicated with non-binary choices, such as rock-paper-scissors.

Actually Important Stuff

A last area of note is that every action taken by any player is *technically* within the framework of WIFOM. It is, however, quite pedantic and useless to say that level 0 play or argumentation exists within some WIFOM framework, hence why WIFOM only has a place when higher levels of meta are brought into play/discussion. The only useful place lvl 0 has in WIFOM discussions is as an alternative to a proposed higher level argument or strategy.

I am posting the above because for the purpose of this analysis, I am going to be referring to the levels of WIFOM.

Assuming 100% Level Zero

, anyone who voted for Word321 is town. The two people that did not vote for Word321 are scum candidates.

Pre-cleared:

GeniusGamer

Town:
T-Bone
Redados
ItalianoVD
ShellyC

Scum candidates:
MiniMegabyte
Porkens

Assuming level 0

the two options for remaining scum are Porkens and MiniMegabyte. Porkens did not vote for Word321. However, they did post during twilight that they were waiting to hear a response from Word. This is pretty normal behavior; before elimination it is good form to wait for the player to flip or make a defense. It is sketchy to hammer without hearing a response. Because of this, I don't think that Porkens' lack of a vote was incredibly incriminating. Also, if Porkens were scum, then at level 0 they would not say what they did during Twilight. If they knew that Word321 was scum, they would have known those words would make them look bad.

MiniMegabyte hopped on Friday night (my time), unvoted GG, said that they would catch up later, and then they never did. They also said that they were not home. Again, I also don't think that this is particularly incriminating in itself.

Let's go into the level 1 options for WIFOM.

T-Bone - T-Bone parked his vote on Micc/Word321 in the first post. Then, he kept it the WHOLE day. He also kept pushing the slot pretty consistently. For this to be WIFOM level one... man. I really doubt it. It would have been very easy for T-Bone to have hopped onto the GeniusGamer or ShellyC wagons and arouse zero suspicion. If this doesn't completely clear him... I think it comes pretty close unless I'm missing something.

Redados - Before I changed my vote, SJReaver had declared intent to hammer on ShellyC. My action singlehandedly meant that Word321 was eliminated instead of ShellyC. If I were scum, I would have just sat there and done nothing for the next hour and let ShellyC be lynched. This could be super next-level WIFOM but I hope you guys see that in combination with how I've been playing, this looks very good for me. This is totally different than bussing a partner. I was very very relieved when I saw that Word321 was mafia. That was a weight off my chest.

ItalianoVD - Italiano hammered before Word321 had a chance to respond. This would have looked really scummy if Word hadn't been scum. But he was. So on level 0, this looks really good for Italiano. Some level 1 possibilities - maybe Italiano and Word were daytalking and Word told Italiano to hammer him. They both would have known that it would have looked really good for Italiano. Also, it was pretty inevitable here that Word was going to get eliminated. So maybe this move doesn't clear Italiano after all?

ShellyC - ShellyC's vote doesn't actually tell us anything. Her vote was a vote of self-preservation to the other leading wagon. Sure, at level zero she wouldn't have voted for the other mafia but it's not too much of a stretch to imagine her at level one here.

--

Above are the possibilities. Below are my actual opinions and thoughts.

--

I think that me, T-Bone, and Italiano are town (obviously I know that GeniusGamer is town too).
I think that the scum lies within Porkens, MiniMegabyte, and ShellyC.
I think that Porkens' play was at level 0 and that everything was above board (although I want to go back and look at their interactions with GeniusGamer).
I was moved by ShellyC's posts when she was at E-1, enough to change my vote off of her. I stand by that.
I think that MiniMegabyte is just new town.

Read list:

Redados
T-Bone
ItalianoVF
GeniusGamer

Porkens
ShellyC
MiniMegabyte

[Redados]

T-Bone - i think the page 3 RVS vote was kinda suspect, and sitting on it until page 10 is even more so. i think even if he's got a scum read on me here he hasn't gone about pursuing it in a town like manor, or done mush else in a town like manor.

We should have known that Micc was scum because of he misspelled "manner"

[Redados]

I did a deep dive on Porkens during the night. I read Newbie 2014, Newbie 2016, and Micro 943. My take from this is that Porkens' meta is NAI. I can't "read" Porkens' alignment based on meta. However, I still learned stuff. One is that scum!Porkens has participated in scum theater. Therefore, just because Porkens has pushed someone or argued with someone, it does NOT mean that it can't be a scum vs scum argument.

Porkens didn't really give any scumreads on Micc. However, they did throw doubt onto Word once he filled the slot.

[Redados]

(sorry for quadruple posting, I am just really excited because I was not able to post during the night)

RIP SJReaver. Post 389 was incredible and amazing. She will be missed!!!!

[Redados]

How did you robin tour previous game with reads?

What is a robin tour?

I can't believe the mafia would lynch her

I don’t believe you.

Is this Porkens trying to imply that he had a power role?

Going fishing now??

Is this T-Bone trying to imply that he had a power role?

[Redados]

If Porkens hadn’t started the wagon on Genius, he (Genius) never would have claimed, which would have never caused SJ to confirm, which would have never allowed us to use process of elimination, which in turn got us the scum.

Just a reminder that I debatably started the wagon on GG.

But I'm fine putting some pressure on Porkens. VOTE: Porkens

[Redados]

What makes me so scared is that I Cannot. Read. Porkens. Nothing they say is AI. All I can look at is actions. And Porkens did not find us the scum on Day One. Ugh.

[Redados]

What makes me so scared is that I Cannot. Read. Porkens. Nothing they say is AI. All I can look at is actions. And Porkens did not find us the scum on Day One. Ugh.

Honestly it’s not there job to find scum. It’s all of our jobs, well as town. I don’t like this post.

Let me try and be more clear: I cannot read Porkens. I cannot tell whether Porkens is scum or not based on what they post.

If Porkens had been integral in getting Word lynched, I would have decided that Porkens was town.

[Redados]

What makes me so scared is that I Cannot. Read. Porkens. Nothing they say is AI. All I can look at is actions. And Porkens did not find us the scum on Day One. Ugh.

Right. Most players do not post alignment indicative stuff in every post.

Hence why I zeroed in on Micc for the one manipulation he was trying to do. And why I didn't quote a bunch of stuff and go..."scum...scum...oh look at how scum this is" etc.

I point this out to offer helpful advice for the future.

I actually think Porkens is his partner. I think you have it correct. I think if Micc/word321 had a newbie partner, they take a shot at Porkens or I instead. Yes, I know the correct kill was SJR...and I think that the fact that scum made the correct kill is an important consideration.

To be clear, it's not because I think a newbie player is inherently unskilled. I think it because they are newer they'd be more likely to make unconventional choices, because they don't have any assumptions to challenge. It was like when Shelly was challenging the validity of the Mason claim. I don't think it was because she scumslipping, but because she hasn't been around long enough to form assumptions on how things should be approached.

This is a reaallly good point that I hadn't thought of it. If I were to think of it

strictly

in this way, this is what my lynchpool would be:

Redados (I would have eliminated SJReaver if I were scum)
ItalianoVD
T-Bone
Porkens

[Redados]

This is a reaallly good point that I hadn't thought of it. If I were to think of it

strictly

in this way, this is what my lynchpool would be:

Redados (I would have eliminated SJReaver if I were scum)
ItalianoVD
T-Bone
Porkens

I'm tunneling Porkens really hard right now.

[Redados]

As a matter of fact I don’t like the doubt that you seem to be brewing.

I'll brew whatever I want, we limmed scum, this is how I feel right now:

[Redados]

Hello, hello here we go. Salutations to another day. Also YESSS, we got the scum yesterday!

T-Bone, are you saying because of the "correct" kill made, an SE is more likely to be scum? (i dont know what correct means)
I feel like Italiano is pretty much locked town here. His posts are coming from a townie mindset in my opinion, and he was TR by SJR.
Red in 713, you put it like Porkens is the only guy that needs to scumhunt. This isn't true, it's our shared objective.

At the start of the game I TR Porkens, because I tend to see aggressive people as town.
But after a bit of reading, I feel like aggressive =/= town, and scum can feign it.
I think Porkens might be a good lynch today, but i'd like to see his defense.

I'm not speaking for T-Bone, but SJReaver was the correct kill imo. If someone is lock town like SJReaver was, then they're the correct kill.

I've towntunneled Italiano pretty hard at this point, I would be really surprised if he were scum. I'm not sure if SJR or GG's reads clear people necessarily, what clears Italiano for me was him hammering Word.

Pretend #713 was replaced with the contents of #722, that's more of what I meant to convey there.

[Redados]

Also you TR T-Bone in post 701 but put him in lynchpool in post 723. That's contradictory.

723 is my lynchpool

only

in regards to the post I'm quoting. AKA who do I think could be scum if I was basing it only on who died last night. Hence, including myself. I would never actually eliminate myself.

[Redados]

Red, why didn't you even consider GeniusGamer to be the correct kill when you spoke of it in #727?

I'm not trying to be mean or disparaging with what I have to say:

SJR and GG were both lock town. SJR helped the town more than GG. Therefore SJR was the correct kill.

[Redados]

You're too good, and that's why I've narrowed it down to two.

are you... pocketing me???? (am I using that word right?)

Hmmm. Where do you consider me to have "townslipped"? I don't know what you mean. But it's nice to see you reading me as townie.

You townslipped when you asked why SJR was the "correct" kill

No, I'm saying that if it isn't Porkens as the last scum, it's because it is Redados.

I haven't rolled scum in forum mafia/werewolf yet, but IRL in the Resistance/SH etc I talk a lot and don't shut up when I'm the on the good guys, and I stay pretty quiet and laid back when I'm one of the bad guys. I'm starting to find my playstyle here online and it's a combination of stream of conscienceless and big analytical posts. Not sure if I could pull this off if I were scum.

[Redados]

—MiccWord and T-Bone—
Votes micc
Calls micc scummy
Calls micc scummy again
Calls micc scummy again

lmao

I do want to ask the question as to why a lot of people are scum reading Porkens?

PoE, NKA, how his posts are NAI

I'll elaborate on this for you, Mini.

1. PoE (process of elimination). This isn't 100% a factor for me, but if you re-read my post 701, I make the case that if we go strictly by votecount, either you (MiniMega) or Porkens is the mafia. Of course, that's not how this works, but it's a factor!

2. NKA (something about Night Kill). The argument here is that only about four players would have night-killed SJReaver, including Porkens (I make this argument in post 723).

3. How his posts are NAI (Not Alignment Indicative). I talk about this in post 722. Basically, I can't tell if Porkens is town or mafia.

None of these things makes me go, "Porkens must be the spy." But when you look at them all together, it makes me want to vote for him and see what he has to say.

[Redados]

I just looked in the wiki and NKA stands for "night kill analysis," for anyone else like me who didn't know that one

[Redados]

744 Okay that’s understandable I did get on and see that word321 was being voted but I didn’t vote as when I got on they were at E-1 and no claim had been made from them. When I got the time to jump back on site they had been eliminated and it was night time so if you like I can post my reads since the confirmation of the two masons and the elimination of word321

Please post a reads list, more information is good!

In regards to (1), now that T-Bone has posted his night kill analysis, I don't think that you (MiniMegabyte) are mafia.

My reads list-

Town:
GeniusGamer
Redados

Convincing Town:
T-Bone
ItalianoVD

New Town:
ShellyC
MiniMegabyte

Scum?:
Porkens

This is evolving and it's totally possible that I'm tunneling here. Also possibly sheeping because I honestly had not really thought more about the night kill until T-Bone said something.

[Redados]

Did you just townread everyone...

Yes lol. I was tunneling Porkens really bad last night.

I like Red a lot here. He's not in my lynchpool. He has posted a few long posts analysing various aspects. I feel like scum wouldn't have the motivation to do this.

Porkens, Mini, possibly T-Bone? would be my lynches.
Also you TR T-Bone in post 701 but put him in lynchpool in post 723. That's contradictory.

My reads: (in order from town -> scum)

GeniusGamer

ItalianoVD

Redados

T-Bone

MiniMegabyte

Porkens

Might change porkens to purple zone after that post

I want to point out that at this point, all Porkens had done was post an ISO analysis. Anyone can do this, whether they are scum or town. To top it off, at this point, Porkens had not even made any sort of analysis or point, just did a data dump. This was useful, but expected based on this point in the game. What Porkens did is exactly what I would expect scum!Porkens to do.

Now, I'm NOT saying that the post means Porkens is scum. I'm saying that the post is NAI.

In regards to Porkens' post 753, this is a good post. I have definitely tunneled and not really accepted that anyone but Porkens could be scum. Post 753 has convinced me that ItalianoVD is not as conftown as I had him in my head.

Everyone should remember that Micc was relatively inactive, so we don't have a ton of solid interactions to base our thoughts off of.

I'll start with the conclusion that Italiano is probably MiccWord's partner.

could confirmation bias have affected your analysis

Consider the possibility that Porkens is scum; Porkens went back and ISOd and made the best case possible. There isn't really anyone else that Porkens can push for as scum here. Scum!Porkens would have had to make do with what they have to work with, which is that ItalianoVD looks the "worst" among everyone left that isn't Porkens.

So now there is suspicion on Italiano when wasnt he the one that everyone was saying that he was town from the beginning? I am not eaxctly confident on this as he is playing exactly the same as the game i last played with him where he was town.

Then again this was the only game i have ever played with them as it was my first ever game on site.
I can see all the points you are all making but for some reason in my gut i don't feel Italiano is scum here.

Of course if the vote goes through and i am wrong then obviously i have a lot of thinking to do because i am not doing something right.

Because of everything i have explained above, i am not going to vote Italiano unless someone can change my mind because to me it seems unlikely.

Italiano has played in two games on this site and he has been town in both games. We haven't seen him play a scum game yet. For all we know, his scum game is identical to his town game. We can use meta to color our opinions but it's hard to use it as ironclad to make a decision on alignment.

P edit: I just saw that Italiano posted, I'll respond to that in a separate post

[Redados]

For the twilight posts, why would Porkens try and give word a chance to speak, when word is clearly elimmed?
Also it'd make him look bad.

This is WIFOM, I think.

Otherwise, I feel like your other points are pretty valid. You two are OMGUSsing each other. interesting

I don't think that this is necessarily OMGUS because at this point, I think that these are our last two scum candidates. There's no one else to target at this point if we look at NKA and day one voting.

[Redados]

Alright. So I’m gonna make my case for Porkens first. Then I’ll be defending myself against Porkens case in another post. Anyway.

I was iffy about Porkens from about page 3 or 4 and as the day progressed I just felt more and more uneasy about him. I didn’t initially assume it was a scumread. I thought it could have been because of him having a power role, which is why I didn’t really say much. From experience village/town power roles can potentially look suspicious as wolf/scum power roles. But it seemed and looked more sketchy/scummy the more he interacted with the player list . That’s when I began doing deep dives into his ISOs and interactions. It’s interesting how he highlighted everyone else’s but his own interactions with MiccWord.

Here it goes:

Spoiler:

A weird opening post 6. I know it’s not alignment indicative, but the games I’ve seen on here player’s usually will vote in their first post in. Not always, but a good majority of games I have read and the two I have played in, it has been the case.

Then he votes for Redados in 20. I figured it was RVS, which was why my question to Porkens in 24 was asked. Partly in jest, partly real. His response in 27 was enough for me. What happened next was weird to me.

Porkens wanted to put pressure on Redados for unvoting Genius. Okay fine. But also in 27 he did not believe Redados’ answer to his initial question. He said this:

”2 votes isn’t close to day ending, and pressure promotes discussion. This is not a good reason to unvote. Why did you really unvote?”

That’s when he votes for Shellyc with Redados literally several posts later without having said he believed him or that he accepted his answer, which is kind of weird to follow the vote of someone you few may be scum. There also wasn’t an explanation to why he had voted for Shellyc. His vote stayed on her until page 19 in 467 when he voted for Genius.

I have to assume that Porkens voted for Shellyc for similar reasons Redados did since he never explained why. That reason is not posting. After Shellyc posted Redados backed off of her. Porkens did not. I make mention of this in 309.Then in 312 he asked: “What have I said about shellac that strikes you as disengenuous?”

My response in 322 was met with no answer/response. Unless you wanna say 325 was a response. I don’t think it was.

For me Porkens scumread on Shellyc was not organic and was forced. He voted for her on page 2 for no reason obvious to anyone and then spent almost 17 pages trying to prove that she was scum and didn’t understand why I WASN’T scumreading her. Really never even giving my reasons much thought.

Porkens spent much of Day 1 asking questions and pressuring different people, but never gave reads and never really opened up about anything unless prompted. When he was questioned and pressured he either didn’t answer or answered with a question. Particularly I felt he was being defensive or purposely difficult in his interaction with N0blenoob on page 5.

To be fair in 204 he did ask “does anyone want to ask me questions.” However Redados asked him who he thought was scum. He didn’t say Shellyc who had been voting for at the time. He said: “I don’t know. I think everyone who I’ve engaged has done a reasonable job explaining themselves, and I haven’t really been thinking too hard about alignment yet. I’m hoping that when I look back I’ll see some clues.”

Here’s the irony in his push onto me. He seems to forget 208 where he “feels” Micc is town and “feels” I am scum based on my avatar.

In 247 He never mentioned Micc at all. He had a read for T Bone, Genius, myself, Shelly, Mini, N0ble and Red somewhat. But where was Micc. And he never came back to correct it. But actually read the list. Everyone is suspicious on his list. That is a common and historic scum tell. Shade everyone and don’t have a solid read. If you are suspicious of everyone than you can’t get caught in voting/read inconsistencies because you’ll point back to the list and say you had precedent for voting that read.

In post 285 he asks Shellyc what she found scummy in Micc. She never answered and he never went back to it.

In [post]363 he says this: “Well we have just under 3 days left now. We should probably move toward consolidating one or two wagons. I really do not feel like Redados is a good elimination today. I'm just OK with Mini. Micc I am not feeling at all. ShellyC and NobleNoob would be my top two choices.”

Funny how he was not feeling Micc at all here which makes me think he wasn’t going to eliminate him no matter what. So then how can he shade me for placing Micc on my no elimination list? Smh.

In 692 I mentioned:

”What else is there to say? If we’re under the premise that Genius and SJ are the power roles, he’s not gonna counterclaim right? If he comes in and gives a compelling argument that he is town then what? I’d honestly just like to get this day over with.”

If that was a wrong way to feel then my bad, but I genuinely was exhausted and wanted the day to be over. I was extremely excited that Word was scum. Porkens not so much. I’m probably pushing it here but Porkens’ reaction to my hammer made me feel like he was upset that we had hammered his partner and was reacting to it instead of a concerned townie trying to be genuine. Notice the difference between SJReavers response to Word and Porkens.

SJReaver: 681

Porkens: 689 690 691

All these things make me believe at best Porkens is scum and at worst he is a bad townie. Either way it doesn’t help us especially with his incorrect read on me.

For the record, right now I still think that Porkens is scum. That being said, I'm going to go through what stands out to me here.

Your analysis from posts 6-27 I don't think tells us much because that was RVS. It's a totally valid argument to kind of vote however in this period, because one can make the argument that it's all about testing people's reactions to the votes. Porkens didn't care that I unvoted, it was NAI especially in RVS. Porkens wanted to see how I responded and how I held up under pressure. You say that it's weird that it's weird Porkens voted with me when they thought I was scum. To that I say, Porkens didn't think I was scum, they were just pushing me like they push everyone.

You say that Porkens didn't give a reason for the vote on ShellyC. Wasn't Porkens calling ShellyC out pretty consistently for a while on sheeping reads? Just because an RVS vote sticks doesn't mean you can't keep it (ie T-Bone's vote on Micc).

I backed off of ShellyC after they posted. In hindsight, this was the correct decision. However in the moment it gave me a lot of pause and it was a huge possibility that I left my vote on her. I think that not switching her vote is only AI in hindsight, I completely believe that Town!Porkens would have acted the same way. Porkens pushed for shelly for eight pages, as you said. It's in character/consistent to push for Shelly's elimination there.

I'm gonna be honest, your avatar bothers me too I would like it much more if you chose one of the images and had it be stationary. But that is neither here nor there.

I think the Porkens <-> Micc slot interactions that you've detailed are the most damning and compelling parts of your posts. After reading what you've posted, my vote on Porkens stands.

[Redados]

Consider the possibility that Porkens is scum; Porkens went back and ISOd and made the best case possible. There isn't really anyone else that Porkens can push for as scum here. Scum!Porkens would have had to make do with what they have to work with, which is that ItalianoVD looks the "worst" among everyone left that isn't Porkens.

I thought Italiano was highly townread so "worst"???
Porkens could have made a case on "mislynchables" like me and mini

Italiano was practically conf town on day one when we were just going off feels.

Now we have two new pieces of information: 1) Micc slot's alignment and 2) NKA.

I don't think it makes him even look too bad, it's just that there's no one else it could be, so feels doesn't cut it anymore. We have to logic it out.

I backed off of ShellyC after they posted. In hindsight, this was the correct decision. However in the moment it gave me a lot of pause and it was a huge possibility that I left my vote on her. I think that not switching her vote is only AI in hindsight, I completely believe that Town!Porkens would have acted the same way. Porkens pushed for shelly for eight pages, as you said. It's in character/consistent to push for Shelly's elimination there.

I dont know what he was doing there, but he seemed to think I was a "target" of sorts

Yeah but I don't think him targeting you is AI because I also honestly was convinced you were scum

[Redados]

Yeah but I don't think him targeting you is AI because I also honestly was convinced you were scum

Why did you go off me after my defense if you thought I was scum

I meta-dived Word and convinced myself he was scummier than you. I didn't townread you until today (Day 2).

[Redados]

Which leaves Porkens and Redados.

Why haven't you considered Redados as a possible candidate for suspect? How about the unlikely event that both Porkens and Italiano are town

If I am scum then I am the worst scum partner ever because I would have literally killed my scum partner on the first day, which seems like a death sentence for scum. It wasn't bussing onto an inevitable wagon to clear me, I literally switched the lim from you to Word.

Sure, that could have been a super next level play but c'mon.

[Redados]

Statistically you shouldn't rule me out but I think that it's incredibly unlikely that I am scum.

[Redados]

We're at L-1? That was fast.

VOTE: Unvote

Consider a ghost vote on Porkens though.

[Redados]

Since there are no scum partners left in the game, anyone can "defend" anyone more freely, right? Without being accused of being scum partners with someone. So that will be nice.

Wait, we’re at E-1 already? Geez. I knew I wasn’t hammering, but I thought there were more people. Huh.

I suppose we should let him talk before eliminating him though. Maybe he’ll come out with some incredible, eye opening argument that instantly changes everyone’s minds.

It's more about that we have a ton of time, and need to consider the possibility that he will flip town, so we have to then decide then what'? on Day 3.

You in particular, as confirmed town who is likely to die tonight, need to be diligent in using this time wisely to get all your thoughts out in this game.

What good does flipping do? We've confirmed masons and killed the mafia roleblocker, so the only rolls left in the game are "Vanilla Townie" and "Mafia Goon". So we wait for Porkens to flip... Vanilla Townie? Are we hoping that he trips up and flips Mafia Goon on accident and shows his hand?

Not sure what good flipping does based on the rolls left. Maybe I am misunderstanding what "flip" means.

[Redados]

I get it now, sorry for being snarky

[Redados]

Isn't that wrong? There is one scum left, isn't days to lim the same regardless of who we lim first?

Also, I'm starting to have doubts about the NKA. Couldn't Word321 have just daytalked and chosen the lim by proxy before getting limmed?

[Redados]

I think you're both misunderstanding the analysis of the nightkill I did.

You could have phrased that better. It could be interpreted as you saying that you did the night kill.

Hahahaha SCUMSLIP

I’m not sure what you mean exactly.

I went back and re-read what you wrote. I thought you were saying we have to lim Italiano tomorrow or we lose. I see that you're saying that we have to lim Italiano tomorrow just because it's the best play. Sorry for the mix up!

[Redados]

@GeorgeBailey

It looks like the timer on Day Two is set for 10 days. Is that accurate? Not complaining that we have extra time, just noting that it doesn't match the rules (10 day Day 1, 7 day subsequent days)

Fixed! Thanks for telling me -Gb

[Redados]

I read T-Bone's game Newbie 1911. Hmm. So I have a couple thoughts:

1) This is an interesting read: https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... t_Charisma

2) In the game I read, T-Bone was scum. The way he argued was pretty different to this game. The way he posted was pretty different to this game. Based on the differences, I am reading T-Bone as town this game.

I still would like to lim Porkens.

[Redados]

I do want to add the caveat that T-Bone was pushed more in that game than he has been in this game. So it's not a 100% match.

[Redados]

Oh I won’t be making a case, just kibitzing from the sidelines. I’m pretty much dead already so I’m just leaving a will.

Well this is going to be a boring four to five days...

[Redados]

Can I just say something, two people being scum read the most right now both willing to be eliminated? Doesn’t that seem to you that they may both be town? I’m not sure

Scumslip again? because you know they aren't scum as YOU ARE THE SCUM.

But given the situation why would she be saying

anything

? If she were scum, wouldn't she just stay quiet here?

that's just my thought, I mean she could stay quiet, but she'd get called out for it

T-Bone's not getting called out for it. Neither is Red.

...I was asleep.

Great, thank you. I think Shelly and Mini are fairly obvious reads, but I'd like to dig in to Redados and TBone. Why do you find Red scummier than TBone?

I mean, you still have to ask? I’ve been an open book the whole game. If you still don’t know why I find Red scummier than TBone than you haven’t been paying attention.

Don't be afraid to explain again. I'm not super offended by it or anything because I feel like T-Bone is pretty towny but go ahead and explain it again please.

[Redados]

Red and T-Bone Is like you both to be on record about your reads and reasons of:

T-bone,
Shelly
MM
Red

MM and Shelly I both have in the "new town" category. Occam's razor tells me that I probably shouldn't overthink this. If they are scum, they are playing it masterfully because I think they are town. Neither of them have been especially helpful, and I think that any "scumslips" you can attribute to their new-ness.

Red. He is great. 100% town, no question there. I think that he would be a terrible lynch (or nightkill) any time. Leave him alive.

T-Bone. I'm feeling pretty town on T-Bone. He kept his vote on his strongest scumread for 100% of Day 1, which turned out to be scum, which I find impressive. He would not have aroused suspicion by voting for GG or Shelly, and he kept his vote off of them anyway. I think that if he were scum, he would have wagoned onto a townie. Is it possible that he's scum? Yes. That would be super good planning and some next-level thinking. I am kind of doubtful that it is the case. I read a newbie game that he was the IC in and I

think

I can see the differences (although he denies it). I think he's town.

Current readlist from towniest to scummiest:

GeniusGamer
Redados
MiniMegabyte
T-Bone
ShellyC
ItalianoVD
Porkens

To be honest, I've been mulling it over this morning, and I'm feeling more sketched out by ItalianoVD than Porkens at this very moment. My gut is saying that he is the scum, not Porkens. But my brain says that Porkens is more likely to be scum than him. I'm going to keep thinking about it.

Okay, okay, okay. Let’s push the brakes for a second. Who OMGUSed who now? I voted you first and had been You caused me then voted me. I then cased you and defended myself. Chill out, why do you keep framing things so incorrectly. Your case against me is faulty coming from you because it incriminates yourself. You don’t have the have the moral authority to have the case you do and you act as if it’s foolproof and cannot be poked with any holes.

The greatest thing about a death pact is I don’t have to worry about you anymore. I’m going to flip town, and then you are going to die. It literally does not matter how much you accuse me because nothing will change!

Why are you worried about it? According to you, the game is over when I die. Why care how much I suspect you at all? Why don’t you feel relaxed and at peace, like I do?

I agree with death pact. If Porkens flips town, I don't know if I would feel comfortable voting for anyone other than ItalianoVD.

[Redados]

I appreciate the reads but the real goal is to have a tertiary scumread. It sounds like that’s t-bone for you if reading it right.

At this point, yes.

I hope you also enjoyed my read of Red.

[Redados]

I appreciate the reads but the real goal is to have a tertiary scumread. It sounds like that’s t-bone for you if reading it right.

At this point, yes.

I hope you also enjoyed my read of Red.

I do want to stress at this point that T-Bone has done NOTHING scummy and has done NOTHING to hurt the town.

[Redados]

My last post was 3 hours ago. That hardly qualifies as lurking.

I do know you well enough. Just as you should rightly know I am very capable of bussing Micc/Word in the way that I bussed them...I know you're capable of writing a case for anyone to be scum. That's NAI. I've evaluated why you say you think Italino is scum, and I feel that the reasons I think he is town outweigh them.

Can you elaborate on why you think that he is town?

He speaks in a town-like way and he hammered scum. Is there more to it that I'm missing?

[Redados]

I'd like to think that GeorgeBailey is taking all these pictures himself every time there's a vote count.

Me and T-Bone have ghost votes on Porkens. Maybe MM does too, I can't remember.

T-Bone, what is the best play for Porkens here as scum or as town?

[Redados]

Ok, I'm going to read through that T-Bone and Porkens exchange and give my thoughts.

I feel like T-Bone should be the f4 elim though, at this point

Are you saying lim Porkens -> Italiano -> T-Bone?

[Redados]

Porkens is V/LA according to their profile.

[Redados]

T-Bone, what is the best play for Porkens here as scum or as town?

T-Bone, can you answer this?

[Redados]

Thanks for explaining, that was really helpful. And you find Italiano less suspicious than me because he has towntold and I haven't?

[Redados]

1. You've townslip over and over again. MiniMegabyte is TR, but noob town, and might not be really helpful in mylo.
2. I like Redados' posting and they literally pivoted the wagon to word321. He also did WIFOM analysis and read Porkens' games. I don't think a scum would waste time doing that.
3. Sure, T-Bone megabussed but redteam of the listmods could bring next-level thinking. Also his posting is the scummiest of the trio, and NKA fits.

Nothing set in stone, but I'd prefer Red / T-Bone as the elims in that situation.

Okay makes sense I just from my perspective see Tbone as a town

Yeah me too Mini, and I think T-Bone is probably not scum.

However, like Shelly is saying, if Porkens flips town, then Italiano flips town, then I think T-Bone is scum. That's a lot of ifs though because hopefully the game will end when we lim Porkens today.

[Redados]

ItalianoVD, how much mafia have you played offsite?

[Redados]

We have three days to lim. We're going to lim Porkens. Porkens is V/LA. I'm thinking about declaring intent to hammer with what - 36 hours left in the game? It seems like this day is much slower than day one.

[Redados]

We haven't seen Porkens or GeorgeBailey post about the length of Porkens' V/LA, and to be honest there isn't really much that Porkens can do today to avoid getting limmed. I don't want to shorten the day a ton though. But also discussion is really not moving today.

[Redados]

Maybe we should wait until Porkens comes back, as a courtesy?

[Redados]

Intent to hammer!

[Redados]

I declared intent to hammer and then did not hammer. Sorry. Got busy. I'm back and VOTE: Porkens

[Redados]

Gosh, that really sucks. I was like 85% sure Porkens was scum. Not sure why you decided to play so weird Porkens. Don’t worry though, I will be joining you shortly.

As promised
VOTE: Italiano

Now that that’s out of the way. I still believe Mini and TBone are town.

Through process of elimination Redados and Shelly are less town than Mini and TBone imo.

With that said. Let’s get this wagon going and someone hammer it quickly. This day can be over like now.

The game will be in Lylo at that point, with 2 townies, 1 scum. At that point, it should be pretty obvious who the last mafiascum is.

The night kill should definitely tell us who the scum is.

I think that you should unvote because you're at E-1. Let's wait for T-Bone to make his case, which he previously indicated would be on me, then we can make a decision.

[Redados]

Ok. So my brain says that Italiano is the most likely scum, and my gut says it's T-Bone.

If I were scum, I would want to mislim T-Bone today because he has cast suspicion on me and has indicated that he would vote for me in Lylo.
As town, given how he's acting, I think that if we were to go to LyLo, T-Bone might mislim me and then we lose.
Not wanting to get limmed in Lylo is NAI, I think.
I am town and I am looking for the scum. I'm a little lost. Whoever is scum is doing a good job.

I'm going to do a vote analysis.

Italiano:
Had vote on Redados for a long time. From my perspective wrong but from town's perspective: NAI
Was on Genius Wagon (serious wagon): wrong
Was on ShellyC Wagon(serious wagon): NAI
Hammer Word (serious wagon): correct
Was on Porkens Wagon (serious wagon): wrong
Self-voted: NAI
Is voting for ShellyC: NAI

Redados:
Had vote on GeniusGamer (RVS): wrong
Had vote on ShellyC (RVS): NAI
Had vote on T-Bone (RVS): NAI
Had vote on ItalianoVD (no wagon): NAI
Had vote on NobleNoob (no wagon): wrong
Was on ShellyC wagon (serious wagon): NAI
Switched wagon to Words321: correct
Hammered Porkens: wrong

MiniMegabyte:
Had vote on Porkens (RVS): wrong
Had vote on ShellyC (no wagon): NAI
Was on GeniusGamer wagon (serious wagon): wrong

ShellyC:
Had vote on T-Bone (RVS): NAI
Had vote on MiniMegabyte (no wagon): NAI
Had vote on Micc (no wagon): correct
Had vote on GeniusGamer (serious wagon): wrong
Had vote on Word321 (serious wagon): correct
Had vote on ItalianoVD (no wagon): NAI
Was on Porkens wagon (serious wagon): wrong
Is voting for ItalianoVD (serious wagon): NAI

T-Bone:
Had vote on Micc/Word (serious wagon): correct
Had ghost vote on Porkens (serious wagon): wrong

My lunch break is ending so I can't come to any conclusions from this but I'll be back later for that

[Redados]

My lunch break is ending so I can't come to any conclusions from this but I'll be back later for that

So I have an addendum; re-reading this I didn't give myself enough credit for leading the wrong wagon on N0bleNoob, even though I didn't vote. We'll call this a ghost vote.

If we narrow it down to serious wagons only, we get the following:

ItalianoVD:

2 wrong wagons

,

1 correct wagon

, 1 NAI

Redados:

2 wrong wagons

,

1 correct wagon

, 1 NAI

MiniMegabyte:

1 wrong wagon

ShellyC:

2 wrong wagons

,

1 correct wagon

, 1 NAI

T-Bone:

1 wrong wagon

,

1 correct wagon

T-Bone looks best here. Italiano, Shelly, and I have been equally incorrect when hopping on wagons of people which we now know the alignment of. Mini has not been on a lot of wagons.

I was hoping that a clearer picture would be emerging but I don't see it. T-Bone says he is good enough to wagon Micc/Word even if he is scum, but says that Shelly and Italiano have both towntold enough to clear them. He says that I am good enough to hammer Word, but I have not towntold, and that is why he suspects me. To that I would say: I think that you are giving me too much credit and not enough credit to Italiano.

ItalianoVD, how much mafia have you played offsite?

I’ve played the wolf game version of mafia on a boxing forum called WeBL since 2006. This style and version is very different from what I’m used to, but the deduction, analysis, tells, etc is the same since it’s the same game really. I’m still trying to get the hang of this style and all the thousand terms and abbreviations.

Italiano has been playing a while. I have not played this game on a forum since 2012ish when I was significantly younger. This is my first foray into forum mafia and I feel strong

because

I am not scum. If I were scum, I would be significantly less confident here.

Italiano still feels towny to me though. Italiano, could you help me read some games of yours on WeBL? I made an account but I can't find any werewolf games.

Honestly, I feel like I could make a case in my head for any of you four to be scum. I am feeling a bit lost.

[Redados]

@Redados: the site url is webl.vivi.com so not sure if you went there.

It’s a very antiquated forum, but here’s the steps...

Create a gym. Doesn’t matter what it’s called, just so that you can read the forums.

Once you do that I will link you to two games. One where I am wolf and the other where I am villager.

I made an account and made a gym. Please link your most recent scum game and most recent town game please

[Redados]

Hey guys, I'm still here, I'm reading the WeBL games. I will check in again once I've had a chance to finish them.

[Redados]

"Meta is trash" according to T-Bone. I don't expect to read the games and then deduce Italiano's alignment. I hope to just get some extra information and hopefully share it with everyone so we can make an informed decision.

Site meta on WeBL is totally different, now I see why Italiano voted for me after I posted a reads list like three hours into the game. There were like no reads lists on day one of Italiano's scum game.

Scum!Italiano hedged his bets, "I could be wrong but..." "even if he is a villager I'm still happy with my voting choice" etc

He is known as a good player on the forum.

Scum!Italiano actively pushed for a mislynch on Day 1.

What a weird meta. The roleplaying and the language style is so strange. It's definitely different than mafiascum. The meta is so different that I'm not sure that I can learn anything by reading these games.

One comment someone else made: "when hes a wolf he doesnt try to make enemies and tries to uncle tom his way thru by making everyone his buddy". From reading both linked games I'm not 100% sure if I agree.

Another comment, "I've always been 50/50 about italiano in every game I've played, he's always the same regardless of role, very hard to read, always worth a seer check"

Italiano is a completely different poster on WeBL vs MS.

In fairness, here's my most recent completed game (lol): https://pokegym.net/community/index.php ... 4/page-131

Italiano - your day three gambit LOL. Town!Italiano fakeclaimed seer and then immediately led a successful lynch on the real seer lmao and then DIDN'T GET IMMEDIATELY LIMMED lmao. I'm literally chuckling

I'm done reading the games. AWFUL gambit Italiano hahahaha. Geez. I'm feeling Italiano as town but can't point to a specific thing that makes me feel that way.

[Redados]

I'm not sure if it's AI but ShellyC is still sheeping, she sheeped on the Italiano vote today.

[Redados]

Ok. So my brain says that Italiano is the most likely scum, and my gut says it's T-Bone.

I'm re-reading this and these are no longer my current thoughts.

It's Minimegabyte by the way. Book it.

I am re-reading Day 3 and have decided to vote for MiniMegabyte.

I think Italiano seems town-ish here. After reading the games he provided earlier, I can see that the possibility that he is town is high enough. I want MiniMegabyte to respond to my vote and post more content.

Did you read the games??? Do you want to provide more info on that besides, "I read them and I think he's town"??

I don't believe you... VOTE: ShellyC

I didn't follow others. I clearly outlined the reasons for voting you. I know T-Bone is also on you, but that doesn't mean I stole or copied his reads.

Being a townie, I want to formulate suspicion and discuss, but due to my lack of experience, I can't come up with too much.

You said that you've played this game on discord, right?

I mean I can see your point of me not being on many wagons. I guess that just because I don’t wanna be told I’m scum for eliminating the wrong person. However if you’re so sure I’m scum then sure go ahead and eliminate me. I’m telling you though if I get eliminated you’ll only have to go into tomorrow cause I won’t flip scum. But I do see your point

"don't wanna be told I'm scum". Town wants to scumhunt. Mafia want to look like town. By saying that you don't want to be told you're scum is a focus on appearance instead of finding the scum. By doing this you are either a) a townie that isn't being helpful or b) scum.

I agree with this.

I am feeling like Shelly or Mini is the scum. Leaning towards Mini. Voting Shelly.

[Redados]

BTW the link to your game is taking me to the main forum. Do I have to make an account?

Try this: https://pokegym.net/community/index.php ... 4/page-131

I find it by googling "redados werewolf" or "redados werewolf pokemon wars" so that may be easier for you.

Something I now see that Porkens was trying to allude to was the way Shelly sheeps. She writes her reads and thoughts as if she came up with it, but literally says what another person says almost word for word. For me it’s a bit different from the way Mini has done it or may do it. I still stand on the basis that that’s not necessarily alignment indicative, but I will say it’s very weird. Why do you do that Shelly?

The problem is that maybe this is noob!scummy, I think that it's also noob!town-y. How Shelly is playing is exactly how I see myself playing several years ago.

[Redados]

Here's what I'm kind of thinking: if T-Bone is scum then I lose. There's no way that I can identify T-Bone as scum. Also off a meta read I think he's town, not to mention that he's acted very town-like.

Therefore, I will assume that T-Bone is town and sheep his votes. As long as he is town, I win.

Is this a viable strategy/way of thinking?

[Redados]

I'm pretty sure Mini is only at one vote right now. Here, I'll put her at E-1 for ya: VOTE: MiniMegabyte

[Redados]

Because of time zones I don't think Mini or Shelly will be up for a few more hours. I'm not sure what time zone Italiano is in, he seems to be active around the clock

[Redados]

In case for some reason T-Bone changes his mind about hammering, I will have limited computer access for about thirty hours. Good luck everyone!

[Redados]

We can talk and discuss cause the game is over, right?

[Redados]

Good game everyone and well-played Shelly!

This was a really fun game and I enjoyed playing with everyone. I've read some other newbie games and this one especially had such a great vibe!

[Redados]

Links

• Public thread
  
• Mod PT
  
• Mafia PT*
  
• Masonry*
  
• Dead thread
  
• Redados's Pokeball PT*

* = private

Here are the threads

[Redados]

You can make mine public, GeorgeBailey

[Redados]

Shelly, can I ask what helped you pick between me and Italiano for the last night kill? I can see in the mafia chat you went back and forth haha