Mini Normal 2154 - Endgame

[superbowl9]

What's happening fellow kids

VOTE: bugspray for being a good mod

[superbowl9]

Lots of 2020 joins and a D1 claim is this going to play like a newbie?

[superbowl9]

For all of you who find truths posts so far deeply jarring, I suggest you look at one of his other normals on here because he somehow made it alive for several days and there’s a lot of very puzzling things about how he played that game

Not going to go through this work, why not just tell us what happened lol? Also why do you think meta is sufficient to explain this away while inexperience is not?

Also glad you've solved the game before 100 posts redtea

[superbowl9]

Nah you were great bugspray <3

Also I'm not fully looking through a game I'm not playing, but I did peek over at Truth's game and was surprised to find that you were in it osuka (along with looker and licketyquick). Do you think the claim is AI? Did you talk about why claiming D1 is bad, and was there any justification for why the fakeclaim was made?

I'm confused as to Truth would know to fakeclaim mason and reference buddies and crumbing, yet not know enough to fakeclaim D1 - kind of lends credibility to the off-site stuff imo.

[superbowl9]

Why are people pressing LQ for reads?

Can I press you for reads? You seemed more... verbose last game (yes we are in RVS and you replaced into a near solve as a PR, but still)

[superbowl9]

seems a pretty straightforward player by nature. can't find an interpretation of these posts that squares w/ a scum win conditon, especially in light of the account's meta. your suspicion by comparison seems hard to interpret. suppose the player's lying about where they played mafia: what does their choice to tell that lie have to do with their alignment? i see that the behavior'a odd, but i don't see anyone drawing connections between the slot's odd behavior and the slot's win condition.

Inclined to agree with this take but have been wrong on my last 2 "anti-town but no scum motive" type reads, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
At the end of the day if Truth's willing to claim on the first post how much can we really analyze their mindset lol?

[superbowl9]

I do think talking too much about Truth is not to town benefit, though - if Truth's town scum can just sit back and let us argue about this and if they're scum there's like infinite bus equity, so a flip wouldn't give us much extra info

[superbowl9]

So you're fine with a wagon but if it reaches E-3 you hop off? What does that accomplish?

[superbowl9]

Why walter gypyx?

Also I understand why bugspray's take was bad but dunnstral can you explain to me why you think it's bad? Just so we're on the same page

[superbowl9]

I found nothing wrong with redtea's posts, and Truth looks like guillotinebait. bugspray looks opportunistic trying to push the two of them as scum

Okay you're town for now

[superbowl9]

superbol9

ToT

When I say dunnstral is "towned for now" I mean that I am townreading him now, and have marked it in my head as a read to revisit at some point.

The question I have is if he kept his RVS vote on purpose.

It's on purpose to an extent. I think the bugspray wagon has been productive in the pressure it has produced so far, even if I'm still somewhat null on bugspray if that makes sense. I don't townread them, so taking my vote off the wagon just because it was RVS would do more harm than good imo (also why I questioned Gypyx for taking his vote off).

[superbowl9]

If you're town, we use your wagon as PoE. I also like assessing the votes on competing wagons, i.e. you and bugspray.

Welcome looker!
1 billion % disagree with this though - you should not wagon a player you think has good town chances just for POE. You already know from last game that I don't like VCA as it is misleading and easily manipulable but throwing up a counterwagon on whoever just because it makes VCA easier seems like losing strategy regardless.

[superbowl9]

Yeah, but you're saying it like it makes them a lesser townie, have i misunderstood that part?

Yes, because it seems to me that it is pretty clear why people are voting for me.

Scumping from this - scum are more likely to be hyperaware of lacking areas in their play

[superbowl9]

bugspray what type of commital, "high-hanging fruit" posts would you like to see from someone during RVS? Because the one person who really went commital imo (Redtea's 61) you called wolfy.

To me it just seems like you're just attacking opportunistically.

[superbowl9]

Well, he sticks to doing non-commiting posts that don't really mean anything new / push the game foward,

Gypyx I still don't get your case on Walter (at that point in the game). He's "noncommital" and lurky sure, but there are others who would match this description as well. Was Walter just the first one to cross off the list, or did he say something specifically that flagged you?

[superbowl9]

/multipost

[superbowl9]

bugspray what type of commital, "high-hanging fruit" posts would you like to see from someone during RVS? Because the one person who really went commital imo (Redtea's 61) you called wolfy.

To me it just seems like you're just attacking opportunistically.

i'm rpetty sure the definition of wolfy i use is different from everyone else to mean "hunting" and then people say its bad and thats probably informed me having weird reads for a long time

the fact that your vote on me for a non-random reason indicates we are no longer in RVS

Yeah I interpret wolfy as like aggressive, but some ppl seem to be using it to mean scum.

Arguing about the semantics of RVS is not really my aim here, but I will say that I view RVS as the period where you poke around at other players until you find something worth pushing, which was still the case for me before 170.

I'm the 5th person you switched your vote to in the first 7 pages, I'm just not quite sure what your goal is in target switching so much. You not addressing that part of my post doesn't help paint you in a good light.

[superbowl9]

Bugspray, I would still like an answer to my question.

Same pls

[superbowl9]

What's the reason for your taget switching so much? I get survivalism recently but has that been the case the whole time?

[superbowl9]

I think psych-osuka has a good probability of having at least 1 town.
The whole thing seems very OMGUSy to me and Osuka being more reactionary than chernoblyl definitely contributed to that. I think that's just his style though - I read it as Psych kind of offhandedly started prodding him and got caught up in the OMGUS, it doesn't seem very SVS or manufactured to me.

Pedit WALTER STOP STEALING MY POSTS

[superbowl9]

Gypyx when you come back can i get your reads

[superbowl9]

Also overkill what are you actually doing? Are you going to vote anytime soon? You've posted ideas you could explore but have done nothing but lurk for the day

[superbowl9]

LMAO this is why i love you gypyx

[superbowl9]

I don't feel confident enough in my townread to oppose [bugspray's]

lynch

elim, but I still believe we all should try harder to use our time to generate content to find and

lynch

elim someone more positively scummy

Just based on votes, I think that someone else is you dude

[superbowl9]

Also let me just say that I thought bugspray's meme was good

[superbowl9]

Third POO - why are we saying "plenty of time till deadline"??? We have a day and a half

[superbowl9]

Where I am on the game right now:

Firstly I don't think it would be beneficial for us to let the bugspray wagon fall apart so close to deadline - we're just going to scramble to find someone to elim and end up elimming bugspray later anyways. Why waste a future day with more bugspray to just hastily scramble to elim today? (Psyche and bugspray equity noted here 434)

There's a few people who I want more from/are on my to push list when this long af bugspray wagon actually ends, including Nash, Overkill, Dunn, and Looker. I think Psyche/osuka has been at the forefront for a little too long (again supporting my idea that this isn't staged SvS), and that because of this some people have been slipping under the radar - that's where I'm going to try to focus D2.

I think I forgot to mention this but if bugspray does flip scum gypyx's 147 and 346 look very opportunistic.

Even though Psyche tried to townbloc himself (as the second largest wagon LMAO), I think the most deservedly town by far is redtea - they've been aggressive from the jump which I just see as way too bold for scum to try and pull off.

I've also been getting just a gut suspicious feeling from Walter's posts ever since they actually started producing content, that's something I will read back over and hopefully explore D2 as well.

Lastly it would really help to have lickety back - he was actually one of the more productive players while he was posting. Lickety if you see this come back pls :'(

[superbowl9]

?

What is this question mark meant to accomplish?

Even if this isn't what dunnstral meant, I would also like to know what is actually going on with your 413 lol.

You said a lot of things as if they don't need justification, but I think all of those do.
1. I just made a case why we should hammer bugspray, but it's definitely too early for a naked hammer request like that - maybe if it was < 1 day left that would be fine

2. Why are you telling us what to do with no explanation lol? Besides the fact that everyone is going to ignore this, I don't even think this is a good plan. What was your objective here - did you actually think everyone would see this and just drop what their plans were to follow what you said (Okay maybe truth)?

[superbowl9]

the more i think about it, the more it seems that the reason i haven't felt much affinity for the bugspray wagon is that i've seen so many townies get lynched for not being productive, coherent players. it's not really an alignment-indicative behavior on its own (scum have plenty of interest in being productive/coherent), but for some reason people on mafiascum.net just eat that shit up. everywhere i look in fact i just see half-assed justifications for voting them like what looker's decided is enough to justify a hammer.

maybe when i look closely at bugspray i'll see something stronger than that weaksauce but so far it's just a void why is it just a void

There are great reasons to policy elim - or weight negatively - poor yet NAI play.
If a player is lurking, lazy, and just not helpful to town, it can be a good idea to get rid of them earlier in the game so that they don't cause distractions and waste time and energy later on during the game.
Another separate discussion is punishing players for bad play - if poor play isn't viewed as elimable your site gets more and more poor play in its games, overall reducing town EV and the quality of games.
There are exceptions to the rule and obviously you don't want to eliminate town if possible, but to say that poor play is NAI and should thus not be weighted in an evaluation of whether to elim is just incorrect. To say that a site is worse for holding people to a higher standard of play is also not a great opinion.

[superbowl9]

Oh I guess you really were an IC then? My b for 449

[superbowl9]

I'll buy the bugspray claim, seems like osuka is our best option - he will give us good information at the very least

VOTE: osuka

[superbowl9]

I'll buy the bugspray claim, seems like osuka is our best option - he will give us good information at the very least

VOTE: osuka

this explanation seems pretty forced
scumslip?

Forced how? How would this be a scumslip?

[superbowl9]

We should be trying to lynch scum, not town whose playstyles we don't like. Period.

Obviously, did I say we should try to elim town in my post? I said there's good reason to weight anti-town behavior or policy elim it

[superbowl9]

Eliminating people for reasons besides being scummy is more or less the same thing

Not at all true it's definitely more nuanced

[superbowl9]

People's reactions to bugspray's claim doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Being a ninja roleblocker doesn't exactly clear you, even if you crumb it. How did the claim affect your actual reads?

The crumb and as osuka said odd specificity helped, obviously it's not a 100% clear but I'm not really too keen on elimming a claimed PR D1 without exploring any other options.

[superbowl9]

I want to see how bugspray would react to not being at hammer phase.
He just followed my vote along which seems scummy

Are you saying 478 was a reaction test?? Because I highly doubt that

[superbowl9]

I doubt (really i just dont believe it at all) because Walter is just coming off of confirming that this role is normal and includes reasoning alongside it - if you were reaction testing firstly why wait until that exact timing and secondly why include reasoning bugspray could cling to that would dampen the RT? Why not just near naked vote and see what happens? Also what is walter trying to test here? We know bugspray is willing to do anything to survive already, why RT that? Lastly from what I’ve seen from walter they don’t seem like the type of player to be thinking about planning out RTs - they do seem like the type of player to just retroactively say oh yeah that was a RT because they think it’s convenient.

[superbowl9]

Also yall we have 24 hours, we don’t really have the time to just start exploring different slots at this point. It’s push a slot for an elim or join a wagon

[superbowl9]

Okay yeah 3 ICs? I don’t believe a roleblocker, much less ninja, is in that setup.
UNVOTE:

Intent to hammer bugspray, I will wait until tonight to do so

[superbowl9]

Oops you right

VOTE: bugspray

[superbowl9]

Hey yall sorry but i think im gonna have to

V/LA until Monday 8/3.

I’m skimming and keeping up with stuff but won’t really be able to do much else besides keep up with reading and general thoughts.

[superbowl9]

I would vote overkill but they just replaced so i think I will first

VOTE: looker

[superbowl9]

I'm back!!

Welcome to everyone who replaced and happy birthday Nepenthes!

Big post incoming

[superbowl9]

Looker

I don't usually naked vote but some of your posts had pinged me and I was going V/LA, so I figured it would be the perfect time to see how you'd react to a vote with no case! I would characterize your reaction as paranoid, which isn't a good look. I will give you the case you so desire now

You seem to just have dropped my 451, then bring it back in 621 with a complete mischaracterization. Let's address this. You made a post essentially telling town what to do (413), I say "why are you baselessly telling town what to do - how is that helpful in any way" (451), then you come back 200 posts later and say "aha! you agreed with my reads in that post, so why were you clowning it???"(621)

Instead of using my post as evidence in a case against me,

can you go back and answer my 451

? The point of that post was not to degrade you, or to disagree with the players you want to sort, it was to figure out what was going through your head when you made 413, which I am still confused about.

More stuff wrong with your 621 - you point to 449 as though I am trying to bring attention away from psyche/osuka now that psyche is cleared, but psyche wasn't cleared until 454. I also don't know why you said I thought I would be alive D2 for this:

that's something I will read back over and

hopefully

explore D2 as well.

All of that is really just misinformation that you've pushed though, and I'm really not inclined to view that as AI by itself. What I have been scumreading from you is your reasoning. You pushed a counterwagon for VCA stuff in 201, but abandoned that (admittedly very bad) idea 2 posts later to hop on the main wagon for the day (conveniently right after bugspray's crumb might I add?) To me this shows that the principle behind your votes has been quite weak.

Another ping for me is the paranoia in your recent posts - you seem quite anxious for a case on you that you can shut down and have been OMGUSy (which you also think is scum indicative LOL). This will make more sense when I get to dunnstral, but you both are like two sides of the same coin to me: you both pop in here and there and provide some guarded content, but dunn reads quite confident and goal-oriented with his, while you feel almost jumpy and lacking in distinct motivations with yours. I like my vote on you right now.



P.S. - Another post coming soon with other game thoughts, so I probably wont respond to stuff from this until that one's out. After that though I should be able to jump back into stuff.

[superbowl9]

Tbh id be surprised if looker flipped scum, they spent most of the leadup to bugsprays execution calling the pronoun insistence a scum strat (like lol)

Didn't really want to comment on the pronoun stuff/get political, but I think although it is kind of a dick move to call someone out for it, looker does have a point that bugspray could have just used the pronoun stuff to distract the conversation from their alignment. Again, do I think that bugspray actually did this or that bugspray shouldn't be talking about pronouns because they're irrelevant? Absolutely not. But I do think that that's an opinion that someone might hold, so to lol it off seems incorrect to me.

Now off to write pt. 2

[superbowl9]

Tbh id be surprised if looker flipped scum, they spent most of the leadup to bugsprays execution calling the pronoun insistence a scum strat (like lol)

Didn't really want to comment on the pronoun stuff/get political, but I think although it is kind of a dick move to call someone out for it, looker does have a point that bugspray could have just used the pronoun stuff to distract the conversation from their alignment. Again, do I think that bugspray actually did this or that bugspray shouldn't be talking about pronouns because they're irrelevant? Absolutely not. But I do think that that's an opinion that someone might hold, so to lol it off seems incorrect to me.

Now off to write pt. 2

[superbowl9]

Truth, the worst, and dunn

TW, you have been great since you came in. I do think, however, that you are focusing on the wrong things, and since your word is having a lot of sway (with walter even sheeping you), I think we should stop wasting time with discussion that's not going to bring us anywhere.

Firstly, this Truth wagon. I think it's fine if we want to policy elim Truth,

but we're having the wrong discussions about this slot

. We should not be talking about the reasoning behind their actions, and whether a certain post is scummy or towny. How are you going to accurately analyze the mindset of someone who claims D1, calls for others to claim for clarity, blindly sheeps, etc. etc. etc. To say that anyone can evaluate Truth's alignment using normal metrics I think would be foolish.

This leaves us with two options fmpov. One is to policy elim Truth ASAP. The other is to essentially treat Truth as a non-factor and ignore them until a decisive tell manifests or until we absolutely have to address them (2 town v 1 scum or some such scenario). I think there's a case for both sides, but if we want to policy elim we need to do it asap or it's just turned into our second scenario, except now we've wasted time and let scum fly under the radar as we have meaninglessly debated Truth. I was under the impression that we had decided to go with the second option Day 1, but if we want to reevaluate that's fine (although a little suspiciously looks like saving an easy ML till D2). Let's just have the discussion we should be having instead of a useless one that only seems productive.

On dunnstral - I said I would stuff him in town and re-evaluate D2, and he's continued to come off very towny to me since then. I find myself nodding my head at each of his posts (i understand that statement is extemely memeable), as they are accurate, help move the gamestate forwards, and just make sense from a town mindset. Granted a lot of this is contextual, so it's kind of hard to make a succinct case here without going into more detail about the context of certain posts/mindset stuff. I think that this is what a lot of the replaces who came in and started pushing him are missing tho - I think the worst kind of admits this by saying the case was clickbaity.

At the end of the day Dunn comes off as very "sit back and analyze" to me as opposed to "sit back and let other people do the work". It's easy to target that type of playstyle since he's not churning out towny content, but I think if you poke him you will see for yourself that he's thinking about stuff and not just sitting in the back picking off MLs. I also get that I haven't really provided hard evidence here, so if you want me to go into more details on these specifics lmk and I can give you a couple of his interactions that townpinged me.

Other stuff

Also don't understand the redtea case, I just don't see scum coming out swinging like he did and providing such specific early reads and theories, seems wayyyy more likely to be confident town having fun with the game than 8d chess scum to me.

Although the worst faked the gypyx result (-.-) I do like his reaction to being "conftown", it seemed very natural to me in the context of his behavior in our games together. As long as that content promise comes thru I have no major complaints with that slot.

I think my to watch list for now is Titus/chkflip/looker/osuka, particularly annoying is chkflip, as I was pretty solidly null on Nash and he seems quite competent, so it will probably be hard to get a read for a while. Can you just play worse please?

Osuka seems like another interesting slot for me that I will/have been having a tough time reading, but I they're on the to do list for now because I don't want to reread through his iso today. That is probably coming up soon tho, so watch out buddy

[superbowl9]

Can you just play worse please?

I

what?

Like can you just do something so bad I know what your alignment is
Or you can just tell me but you have to pinky promise not to lie

[superbowl9]

How is this AI for looker? If looker truly believes bugspray is acting evasive, wouldn't that just make him think bugspray is an easier ML as scum, making this still NAI?

[superbowl9]

I would normally agree but we had a whole thing about bugspray being ridiculously survivalist, which is what I assume scum looker would lump this behavior into. Thus he's got equally valid reasons to push this as town and scum, so NAI imo

[superbowl9]

I think the equity of elimming Truth has dropped a lot since we elimed elsewhere D1. That being said I think it will only to continue to fall (and maybe spike back up if they are one of the last ones standing), so if we wanted to do it it's now or never. That being said I think both looker and titus are better options for us today.

[superbowl9]

Or if we assume average scum odds that we can't determine, but yes agreed. I'd suport titus, the replace timing sucks but I think overkill definitely had good scum changes

[superbowl9]

soupbowl

Oh man not again ToT

[superbowl9]

Dw you need soup to make super

[superbowl9]

This whole game is just 'telling town what to do' so I don't see why my Post 413 would be so weird. I was going V/LA and wanted to post my thoughts, as opposed to superbowl who went V/LA and voted baselessly (or "nakedly").
It was also very obvious that I suspected bugspray, hence the call for hammer, and Psyche/Osuka, hence the call for sorting. The overlooked players I mentioned after that, superbowl also mentioned (with the exception of redtea for some reason), so I don't see what would "confuse" him about that.

Not really at all lol, you're the only one I've heard in any of my games telling town to do something instead of

suggesting

town do something. It read very weird to me. Still not at all sure why you keep saying that I had the same reads as you except redtea? I'm pretty sure I've explained all of my reads at this point so not sure why you are pointing out where we do/don't overlap as though it's interesting or confusing at all. Either way this is kind of irrelevant, you just seem to be weirdly misrepping a lot of stuff to me.

[superbowl9]

Why would I count anybody out?

This is what I'm talking about with the misreps, you do something completely abnormal and weird and then twist it as though it's a perfectly normal action. Like you're not wrong lol, but that's not really what is being talked about here...

[superbowl9]

I'm debating getting off the Looker wagon and onto Truth. For Truth to be town, then both ICs must be agency captured. The looker wagon gaining steam raises concerns. Particularly of a chkflip + Truth team.

If Looker is scum, it makes things more likely that Truth is scum as well. I can't see scum diverting from Truth onto Looker in an S v S setup.

VOTE: Truth

This is a reeeeeeeallly bad post. You're the second one to vote just because "counterwagons lol" and then jump righhht back on once the other wagon picks up steam. VERY ironically your logic in this post applies exactly to your actions, which are giving steam to this truth wagon (which is starting to look more and more just like an easy ML option to me).

Also very tired of ppl using POE and shaky situational logic to justify hopping around to whichever slot is convenient for them (Looker using standoff POEs, Titus here, the worst). Do yall just not have reads?

[superbowl9]

You're literally doing the thing that I have issue with

I'm saying people have been exploiting this type of situational analysis (poor phrasing here, idk how to express it maybe like data-driven stuff? I hope you get me) to steer their votes into comfortable locations.

So yes, while I don't have a problem with the Truth wagon (although I think we are STILL not having the right discourse about it as I highlighted in my truth post), I do have a problem with the way that people are justifying their truth votes.

[superbowl9]

Uhhhhhh I just posted 2 monster walls about how we should go about playing today lol

All I want is people to stop acting as though their specific POE/wagon analysis is solid enough evidence to base their reads upon

[superbowl9]

The wagons right now are truth/looker no? Are those posts not about truth, looker, and what we should be doing with them?

[superbowl9]

Did I ever say don't use POE at all lol? I'm saying when you use POE or some other such metric as your only justification for a vote or a read that's not good enough

Also that's not even PoE, those are people I want to observe for gameplay reasons (Titus because overkill was playing scummy, you and osuka because you've been hard to get out of null, and looker I made a post on).

[superbowl9]

YES and I am fine with policy elimming truth, I just want us to have the discussion of whether we should do that instead of the bogus discussion of trying to sort them or using some weird VCA stuff to hop on the wagon. So thank you that's what I wanted to hear lol.

[superbowl9]

Not to pull a looker but everyone is on the table for future elims - those are just the people I have my eye extra on their content for. But I don't think that's really what you're trying to get at here so yes?

[superbowl9]

I will totally besmirch VCA - it is so easily manipulable for anyone who is competent at this game that it's shaky at best fmpov. Does it have no place in analysis, no, but is it anywhere near reliable absolutely not

[superbowl9]

I literally just can't at this point. I'm about to post a copypasta level rant

940 just continues the misreps, it's too much of a headache at this point to even address. I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall in this looker interaction.

Of course the terrible hammer is policy elimable. Looker has just been playing SO poorly for the past little while, yet SOMEHOW we keep finding reasons other than townreads to justify prolonging their stay. If there's one type of person I don't want to have around in a MYLO, it's someone who's willing to lolhammer to save their own bacon. I know people with lots of experience like to get real cute and spin themselves into logical circles sometimes, but there comes a time when you have to take ur head out of ur pooper and actually just play the game.

[superbowl9]

Busy weekend again so will be less active than I'd like once again

Looks like a truth policy elim was the right idea - your turn looker

I'd like you to further explain this and why you thought AtE was a good choice.

AtE??? How much can you actually misrepresent stuff? When you just were twisting little things it was annoying, but when you twist every single thing against you into something it's not it really does harm helpful discussion - the topic has now been moved from what I said to whether what I said was AtE, which it clearly was not (theres a difference between letting emotion influence a post and making emotion the point of your post).

I think that my posts and general direction have been pretty clear for the past little bit, which is that this type of bs:

Basic math/odds and your heavy defense of Truth. Also the fact that you're avoiding superbowl.

Is not scumhunting.

Saying that out of 4 players there's a 25% chance one is scum, so let's elim them all is not scumhunting. Noting basic level aspects which even first game scum would attempt to control such as which players have interacted is also not scumhunting. These are just excuses to vote whoever you would like to vote disguised as scumhunting.

VOTE: looker

[superbowl9]

Superbowl you and Looker are oil and water but your scumread is offbase
What do you think about chk today

Why? (totally ready to have an argument with you about looker, I think you and tw are/were quite wrong about this)

And I've been mostly skimming so far, but I've been feeling something off about chk's slot recently, going to go back and read through along with some other stuff once I get some time. Still null but getting some bad vibes

[superbowl9]

chkflip why are you voting gypyx? You said it was a placeholder but 1 what are you waiting for and 2 why him specifically as a placeholder?

[superbowl9]

No matter how much osuka I read he's still null -.-

I'm thinking maybe a titus and looker team? Scum titus makes this game make a lot of sense, town titus makes me very confused

[superbowl9]

chkflip why are you voting gypyx? You said it was a placeholder but 1 what are you waiting for and 2 why him specifically as a placeholder?

I answered both of these questions already, so what's the point of this post exactly but to look productive?

My bad I think I missed both of those then? Genuinely curious about both of these

[superbowl9]

Is superbowl voting me because I allow math to support my scumhunting

Not because you support your scumhunting with math, because you're supporting your "math" with "scumhunting".

[superbowl9]

Bowl I'm not in the business of repeating myself

Best I can see is 1106, which I can maybe divine you were waiting on Titus VCA and voting gypyx to pressure him to actually scumhunt instead of sheeping? I don't see anything else on this though, if you don't want to repeat can I get a post number at least?

[superbowl9]

Ik some people like it but why are we putting so much faith in titus VCA? Like I can get chkflip wanting it because they have meta or whatever, but why are seemingly most treating this as gospel? Not to mention you're implying a townread on the slot, which what has overkill/titus done to deserve?

[superbowl9]

Wow I agree with looker on something

[superbowl9]

Titus just in general seems like a slot that has dodged a bunch of pressure because of convenient timing

pedit: wow I thought we were the buddies

[superbowl9]

Why do you discount a Titus/looker team walter

[superbowl9]

Also gypyx what was scummy about redtea?

[superbowl9]

Yes
Especially because yall will eat up her VCA in which she points out she bussed her partner who is clearly going to be an elim at some point

[superbowl9]

Yes
Especially because yall will eat up her VCA in which she points out she bussed her partner who is clearly going to be an elim at some point

My VCA starts from the assumption I am town. You are fully free to do your own. Nothing's stopping you.

Odd how I am simulating dodging pressure while having an undue influence on the game. I haven't been here much because of work. So it's a real interesting predicament.

I don't like VCA because it is very easily manipulable by all involved, so I'll pass on relying on it myself. What I'm saying is that we shouldn't be relying on yours either.
And yes, it is actually odd to me that you have been dodging pressure while simultaneously having sway over peoples' opinions. That usually indicates to me that either I'm missing something or scum is manipulating perceptions.

[superbowl9]

Given I FoSed Superbowl and his response is to call me scum with Looker, I am thinking it's a case of he doth protest too much.

I could be wrong though. Yesterday's wagons were close too.

I've been SRing your slot since before you replaced in lol

[superbowl9]

Yes
Especially because yall will eat up her VCA in which she points out she bussed her partner who is clearly going to be an elim at some point

What do you scumread abt titus

To give u a quick summary, overkill was doing nothing with unexplored and poor lines of thought, then titus replaced in and has also had poor votes. I don't feel genuine attempts to read the game from her just excuses to elim whoever she likes (VCA is a perfect tool for this)

[superbowl9]

To get rid of one lolhammer, we accept another such is the yin and yang of life

[superbowl9]

Yes
Especially because yall will eat up her VCA in which she points out she bussed her partner who is clearly going to be an elim at some point

What do you scumread abt titus

To give u a quick summary, overkill was doing nothing with unexplored and poor lines of thought, then titus replaced in and has also had poor votes. I don't feel genuine attempts to read the game from her just excuses to elim whoever she likes (VCA is a perfect tool for this)

Poor votes? Deciding to join conftown on scum was a poor vote? Also for someone claiming we shouldn't use vote history, you sure are arguing my vote history was bad.

VCA is actually a horrible tool for eliminating whoever I want. If someone is actually doing VCA, there are conclusions that can't be walked away from.

You want to argue VCA is subjective and useless. Do your own. VCA has been my theory for years. I openly invite challenges to it. I murderfuck anyone who says VCA isn't scumhunting.

I may scumhunt differently, but I still scumhunt. Try to push this Titus is only VCAing when my votes are good. Try it. I live and die by my VCA.

This is what you sound like to me:
"I don't like astrology because I don't think it's effective, and we shouldn't be listening to your sign readings either."
"Well, if you don't like my readings so much why don't you make your own then!!1"

See how that makes no sense?

I can go through your votes and explain why I think they were bad if I'm here tomorrow. However to say that VCA is the same thing as not liking the reasoning behind votes is just false and you (should) know this.

To say that VCA has concrete conclusions you can't spin whichever way you please is also false. This is a game where you can only guess at peoples' motivations, making VCA essentially guess and check. This is even more true because people know that VCA is coming and try to game it on purpose.

This all being said I don't really have a problem with VCA being used to supplement scumhunting, I just don't buy that it is scumhunting in and of itself. If my towniest read is on every green flip then yes I will look at them a lot closer but this is also a game where even the best players make wrong reads every single game.

[superbowl9]

Well fuck

I guess titus was on for the vca or scum is just wifoming? Gonna try to reevaluate this game, my townreads are probably wrong

[superbowl9]

You dunn and gypyx

[superbowl9]

You dunn and gypyx

What are your thoughts on chk

He's almost like the opposite of dunnstral for me. He's been active and his rhetoric isn't really offensive to me, but something tonally just seems a little off about him. He was probably my 3rd likeliest scum after looker and titus, but everyone I've scumread has flipped green so far so I don't trust my gut anymore this game.

When this has happened before I've usually been getting pocketed and steered in the wrong direction so I'm looking at nep and osuka since yall seem to be most in that position

[superbowl9]

Dunn and Gypyx are both TRs but their plays been disappointing w Dunn not participating except to hammer and gypyx not reading carefully

Might do some reading tonight but tbh id rather see more from literally everybody

Great evidence of you sharing reads with me. Yes we disagree with looker but you've been my strongest TR so you are somewhat of a blindspot - I've taken what you've said as coming from a town perspective

[superbowl9]

Sharing some reads with you =/= steering you in a wrong direction
Your examples of reads youve been wrong on dont follow with thinking youre pocketed by me

Yeah you’re right on this. Im kinda trying to flip my reads on their head, which starts with my TR on you, but ig that strong TR is there for a reason. Time for dunn

[superbowl9]

problem is that bowl is acting really like how i feel scum would be acting if they were close to getting cornered : trying to flip his reads upside down based on basically nothing, and shading nep, who i think is pretty much widely townread?

Not trying to shade nep, trying to figure out the game. Obviously my (and town in general)'s thought process has not been working very well, so obviously something need to change. If a TR is truly town then the townread should hold through prodding. I think this is a better alternative than just sitting back and sheeping

[superbowl9]

so you're litterally saying that you're trying to find scum by suspecting your townreads? isn't that kind of the opposite of what you normally want to do? plus if a scum is able to deepwolf to such a point, (over the course of 2 replacements in nep's case) i doubt that some "poking" will do the trick to expose them

Yeah thats the point. What i usually do isnt working. And sometimes the results were always there from the poking, you just can’t see it or haven’t poked.

[superbowl9]

Also is anyone alive who was scumcasing dunn? Been trying to find it with search but am failing

[superbowl9]

Gypyx what was the case on him besides bad vote history and not doing anything?

[superbowl9]

I like how you word this like this isnt enough

Not that it's not enough just that that's what's obvious

Probably a light scumlean just based on vote record r.e. osuka

[superbowl9]

It means superbowls vote history is awful
Gypyx Looker is dead

I would argue osuka is equally as bad but I'll follow your lead here. Dunnstral is a bad vote imo.

how is mine as bad as superbowls? i realize it's not a particular stellar record i have in this game but he's just coasted all game and hopped late on both town wagons

I feel like I can say just the same about you, we have been in a pretty similar situation this game. There's probably scum in {you, dunn} just based off voting records, assuming town isn't being absolutely played like a fiddle by gypyx and chkflip.

VOTE: osuka

L-1

[superbowl9]

Nah I definitely pushed looker, and I've pushed others to a lesser extent (overkill slot, bugspray). To say I went with the flow any more than you have would just not be accurate.

[superbowl9]

L-1

Who’d you push besides an IC?

[superbowl9]

Not gonna get into a sausage fest of who pushed looker

[superbowl9]

Im talking about psyche D1

[superbowl9]

You sniped me and i didnt pedit, thought it would be very obvious to someone of as great intellect as yourself

[superbowl9]

Lol okay, more like 1 minute since you posted late into your minute and I posted early into mine, but it's irrelevant. Why would I be talking about looker when you clearly pushed psyche who is an IC

[superbowl9]

I understand that you pushed him before he activated lol im not stupid bro. Just pointing out the only other person you pushed was an ic. Like i said not getting into a sausage measuring fest with you over who contributed more to a ML, but if you’re saying I didn’t push looker you’re wrong.

Might vote superbowl for never arguing hes town but rather arguing hes basically the same as osuka but osuka is slightly slightly slightly worse
Thats beautiful

I mean you know that’s not really how it works. Both our voting records are bad so we can’t point to that objective measure, and arguing you’re town is pretty poorly viewed anyways since you can’t really give yourself townpoints. The best defense is a good offense

[superbowl9]

I understand that you pushed him before he activated lol im not stupid bro. Just pointing out the only other person you pushed was an ic. Like i said not getting into a sausage measuring fest with you over who contributed more to a ML, but if you’re saying I didn’t push looker you’re wrong.

Might vote superbowl for never arguing hes town but rather arguing hes basically the same as osuka but osuka is slightly slightly slightly worse
Thats beautiful

I mean you know that’s not really how it works. Both our voting records are bad so we can’t point to that objective measure, and arguing you’re town is pretty poorly viewed anyways since you can’t really give yourself townpoints. The best defense is a good offense

so the fuck what? he happened to be an ic, that matters not

you could've pushed looker as much as you wanted, but the point was that you only started to do that AFTER someone else (in this case, me) had already been at it for a while. that's what has been happening with everything you do in the game, you just follow this, shadow that, until it gets to a point where you say "look at all that ive done" but you really have done nothing _new_ at all in the game, in what looks to me like an attempt at avoiding blame. imagine this scenario: we voted looker and now we're both on the hook for having voted looker. you can say "i did it because i thought osuka was right but evidently he's scum that had me" because you did it second - so you save yourself all the while you throw me to the wolves

please stop playing stupid, it's getting really fucking aggravating

Okay now you’re just bsing. I started pushing looker D fucking 1 so idk where you asspulled that i sheeped you on it or something. If anything it’s the reverse. If yall want to see who pushed more/first, go back and iso both of us and see for yourself what happened instead of listening to osuka misrepping and straw manning me

[superbowl9]

My push started with 451. Again people can check for themselves so im not gonna get caught up in your dick measuring (how many times do i have to say that) but saying i didnt push him or that i was just following your lead is bs

[superbowl9]

Uh what i didnt say that’s why im focusing on osuka

And nep this is what you would have us arguing over to try to show that we’re towny. As you already knew, it doesn’t really help. Hence why i dont want to get into this who pushed looker more argument.

[superbowl9]

Yep the me following other people part i could not let slide

[superbowl9]

assuming town isn't being absolutely played like a fiddle by gypyx and chkflip.

We are a fucking fiddle right now, looks like gypyx and chk have been playing us. I think this is pretty much gg.

I'm VT btw, popcorn dunn

[superbowl9]

assuming town isn't being absolutely played like a fiddle by gypyx and chkflip.

We are a fucking fiddle right now, looks like gypyx and chk have been playing us. I think this is pretty much gg.

I'm VT btw, popcorn dunn

"Gypyx and chk are scum"

"Popcorn to dunn"

Nice logic you got there

Lol we're all claiming, it doesn't matter what order we go in

[superbowl9]

Also, pretty sure that what just happened is kinda proof that town isn't bowl and duun given that me and chk would've just quickhammered there

This is true, maybe it's chk and dunn then? Or maybe you're just toying with us because you know that gave you townpoints, honestly scum has done well this game - I can't figure it out

[superbowl9]

You're the most experienced one left (who's actually playing), it's not hard to figure out who's manipulating everyone. Want a cookie for bussing the worst mafia player to grace the site?

Also the fact that yall are saying who I popcorn is indicative of anything is laughable

[superbowl9]

assuming town isn't being absolutely played like a fiddle by gypyx and chkflip.

We are a fucking fiddle right now, looks like gypyx and chk have been playing us. I think this is pretty much gg.

I'm VT btw, popcorn dunn

"Gypyx and chk are scum"

"Popcorn to dunn"

Nice logic you got there

Lol we're all claiming, it doesn't matter what order we go in

Yes this is true, but why would you refuse the (really small) advantage of having your scumread claim first when all it takes is litterally writing 3 different letters?

Why would that be an advantage?

[superbowl9]

Oh didn't even think about that tbh

[superbowl9]

You're the most experienced one left (who's actually playing), it's not hard to figure out who's manipulating everyone. Want a cookie for bussing the worst mafia player to grace the site?

Also the fact that yall are saying who I popcorn is indicative of anything is laughable

"You are the most experienced guy here, therefore you're the

only

guy who could potentially be fooling town there"

I think the hole here is quite obvious?

Pedit : well ok... still weird of you to popcorn to the inactive guy rather than the active guy... really, i don't get how this could be coming from town

Do you disagree that inexperienced scum have a hard time manipulating town? I don't think our town was stupid or played ridiculously poorly, so it's real hard for me to believe that you and dunn have been lining up ML after ML while flying under the radar.

Also why are you still analyzing this popcorn as a reaction test? The way popcorn works is you randomly choose the next person to go to, this is the most ridiculous stretch I've seen in a while

[superbowl9]

You're the most experienced one left (who's actually playing), it's not hard to figure out who's manipulating everyone. Want a cookie for bussing the worst mafia player to grace the site?

Also the fact that yall are saying who I popcorn is indicative of anything is laughable

"You are the most experienced guy here, therefore you're the

only

guy who could potentially be fooling town there"

I think the hole here is quite obvious?

Pedit : well ok... still weird of you to popcorn to the inactive guy rather than the active guy... really, i don't get how this could be coming from town

Do you disagree that inexperienced scum have a hard time manipulating town? I don't think our town was stupid or played ridiculously poorly, so it's real hard for me to believe that you and dunn have been lining up ML after ML while flying under the radar.

Also why are you still analyzing this popcorn as a reaction test? The way popcorn works is you randomly choose the next person to go to, this is the most ridiculous stretch I've seen in a while

My point is that him being the most experienced doesn't rule out other players from being good enough to also pull off a good scum game, like, i guess you have a good enough scumgame, same could be said about duun, if it wasn't for his concerning lack of interest, and i belive i can be a decent scum sometimes

And idk, i think i'm starting to argue for the sake of arguing on that part

I mean fypov sure but from my perspective, you and dunn playing like you have and pulling this game off is a little far-fetched. If yall are actually scum you're a damn good scum player

[superbowl9]

You're the most experienced one left (who's actually playing), it's not hard to figure out who's manipulating everyone. Want a cookie for bussing the worst mafia player to grace the site?

Also the fact that yall are saying who I popcorn is indicative of anything is laughable

Ah, the ol' burden of proficiency angle. That's never wrong.

Didn't you

just

use this "ThEy'Re MaNiPuLaTiNg EvErYoNe" angle with Nep? It's not gonna work with me either, jack, but keep on scumming it up I guess.

Sucks to suck.

What's laughable is your complete inability to grasp that typically, as town, one would focus more on those they scum read; therefore, your choice should've absolutely been me because you're more focused on me. Or you would be. If you were town.

Duuuuunnnnnn please come in here and claim so I can and we can lynch obv!scum bowl.

Everything related to experience is not BoP...
Nep seemed to be the best in the game at the time, you're the second best of that group. If we're being manipulated, it's gonna be from one of you unless you want me to believe that dunn and gypyx have been playing us for fools.

POPCORN IS RANDOM

[superbowl9]

the more i think about all this, the more i think that figuring out the reason behind truth's plays during the game will be what makes town win

So town loses

[superbowl9]

Also the line is just [ line ] [ /line ]

[superbowl9]

Bah humbug

[superbowl9]

Ggs yall, good work chk! Fun playing with everyone!

[superbowl9]

LMAO i thought you were catching on during the game so i ditched that strat, but its really just natural, i feel like we get along well.

[superbowl9]

Okay will do