Mini Normal 2157 | Over

[Billy Pilgrim]

NPOW with the apparent need for *any* reason to vote someone, then pushes him when answered for nothing. Misses the townslip from GB, and is now crumbling under *pressure*

this needs more votes

I also missed the townslip from George. Whats up Icon? Also, NPOW feels testy. Like really testy.

[Billy Pilgrim]

hi all. this is my first game on the forum.

VOTE: nopoweroverme

Datisi, why you lying?

[Billy Pilgrim]

i think GB is town, how about you?

ok i'll just leave my vote on you till you come to your senses then

Do you know something about GB that I don't or is this just a guess?

Ah, fair enough. I find scum always asks small pedantic questions to seem townie.

So it just pinged me as such.

this post was made from a town perspective, and isn't easily faked
it reads very authentic and i'm concluding GB is likely town with an offchance this is actually faked (but unlikely)

Icon is this the townslip? Cuz I dont see it.

[Billy Pilgrim]

That he didn't want to respond to my questions. He could have humored me?

This can't be scum right? The game can't literally be this easy? Of like the worst push in the world for the weakest possible reason actually being scum? Right? I mean it can't be right?

[Billy Pilgrim]

hi all. this is my first game on the forum.

VOTE: nopoweroverme

Datisi, why you lying?

who, me? lying? i would never.

you disagree those bailey posts are +town?

I dont do tone reads so I dont have much to say on them one way or another. But I definitely don't think they're slips.

[Billy Pilgrim]

VOTE: Billy Pilgrim
Watford.

Right, I forgot to comment on this. This guy has to die. That 3-0 right before COVID hurt.

[Billy Pilgrim]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Icon

NPOM seems like he's pretty inexperienced. No way scum comes out and actually goes SRS MODE in RVS. The real goof here is Icon trying to make that seem scummy.

(In fact, NPOM was a pretty easy misyeet D1 in a recent game I played. He was similarly overeager to scum hunt, and the scum team just sat back and let that be a fail. Only took slight prodding to make it an all town wagon. NPOM was town vig that game.)

...wait, hang on. You're saying that he was miseliminated by an all-town wagon, with scum just sitting back and letting it happen, in a previous game.

And you also think Iconeum is scum for scumreading him, when you've just established that town have scumread him previously.

Am I missing something here, or does that not make much sense? Why do you think Iconeum's scumread on NPOM is scum-motivated?

This post is townie. Dont agree with the conclusion but I like the thought process.

[Billy Pilgrim]

VOTE: Billy Pilgrim
Watford.

Right, I forgot to comment on this. This guy has to die. That 3-0 right before COVID hurt.

VOTE: JamSV

My Liverbird is coming for you.

[Billy Pilgrim]

That he didn't want to respond to my questions. He could have humored me?

This can't be scum right? The game can't literally be this easy? Of like the worst push in the world for the weakest possible reason actually being scum? Right? I mean it can't be right?

I don't like this post. I can't really put my finger down what exactly it is. If it's the tone, the exaggeration, feeling kinda fake or whatever. This post was before VP stepped in with a contra opinion regarding NPOM, when Icon was more or less dominating the conversation. I was wondering what your stance on NPOM was by this post as it comes across you take this on in a jokingly approach, which more or less looks slightly like indirect shade on NPOM, because it didn't come across to me you were thinking of awkward/bad/whatever town here. But then again you already said a few posts before in 97 that NPOM feels really testy, which sounds to me like you are tending to at least suspecting him as this is pretty much the argument that Icon and Datisi used to scumread NPOM.

So can you clarify this please? Because later after this post you decide to throw out a RVS vote, which looks weird to me considering I had the impression you were leaning on NPOM.

Honestly the dude seemed testy, which could be scum or could be a way town reacts to jokey rvs. The fact that he doubled down on it almost feels too scummy to be scum. But i thought that overt hostility was too scummy to be scum before and that player ended up being scum. So this is something that im going to treat as a play style thing that may be less so later.

[Billy Pilgrim]

On another note, what is your first impression of Billy?

Seems a bit weird he went from possibly asking serious questions ("why are you lying daitsi?) to what looks like an RVS vote.

Honestly the why are you lying isn't really a serious question. I've played games with Datisi before and early games with her and icon aren't very serious. I havent really gotten into the game fully yet.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Actually it is was more me responding to inocs intensity than being testy i think. It is aggravating that people think that pointing out naked votes is being testy but that's here nor there.

I mean you've done rvs before, do you expect votes to be anything but naked in the forst couple of posts?

[Billy Pilgrim]

I am leaning towards voting Inoc. My initial gut is that she was trying to get a read on me but the argument has been made that the townslip argument was off which is something that I agree with somewhat. None of the other players that have posted recently strike me as scummy. I would like to hear more from Inoc and GB though.

So why aren't you voting them? You wedded to the GB vote?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Rereading everything so far now that I'm not on my phone.

Misses the townslip from GB,

How is this alignment indicative for NPOM or anyone?

Sorry, but I don't believe in RVS. At least as much as I can try to avoid it.

Why?

D) I'm considering switching my vote from GB but he's not making it easy by not posting.

I am leaning towards voting Inoc.

This actually does bug me. Like why are you saying "look out guys, might switch my vote here!"

Why not just vote?

Explain the wind up to me.

re: baltar, i have not played with his alt, i just remembered seeing him say somewhere he's got that account, and the join date being a few years back. i don't actually know anything about his play, i just assumed earlier join date = more experience.

I looked it up (admittedly quickly because I only have so much time today). I'm going to say, it's safe to think NPOM's posting style doesn't feel strongly indicative of alignment. He definitely seems like he puts off weird vibes as either alignment and could be an easy yeet D1. I still stand by my read that scum!Icon could see that as an easy target, but that read feels softer now. (Also, see above weird vote telegraphing from NPOM.)

Honestly the dude seemed testy, which could be scum or could be a way town reacts to jokey rvs. The fact that he doubled down on it almost feels too scummy to be scum. But i thought that overt hostility was too scummy to be scum before and that player ended up being scum. So this is something that im going to treat as a play style thing that may be less so later.

*farting noises*




Alduskkel -- if we were going to do some dualing wagon action, who would you want run up with NPOM?

Not sire what you meant by farting noises.

[Billy Pilgrim]

VOTE: Billy Pilgrim

Not really away from NPOM, but I feel it's locking too much into NPOM/Icon and I don't really like Billy's posts or what he isn't doing atm.

Care to elaborate a bit beyond not liking my posts? As for what I'm nlt doing, I already don't like early game stuff, on top of that a massive storm hit the northeast US and i lost internet then sheltered my in laws for part of last night, so early D1 was even lower priority than normal.

[Billy Pilgrim]

VPB/Andres/NPOW

1 scum

VPB with the very strange scumread on me, which is in straight contradiction with reasons provided by him
Andres, with the huge fencesit opening
NPOW for reasons stated earlier and general interaction with me

I think the dragon is town here. He's been pushed for weird reasons by a bunch of different people and he's engaging and trying to work with them. The overconfidence in reads is just a playstyle thing for icon. His gifs building to his conf!scum conclusion is usually epic and im a bit disappointed we haven't seen any yet.

[Billy Pilgrim]

it's like... the more nopoweroverme posts, the more i disagree with him, but also the more i think his posts come from a genuine place of wanting to solve the game?

+1 these are my least favorite slots.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Datsi

can you talk about this read a bit more?

You seem willing to communicate and are trying to figure people out, rather than acting like you already know.

So is confidence the main way you read people?

[Billy Pilgrim]

1) I'm assuming he's guessing that you are smart enough to sense mislynch bait and you think I am it, and that eliminating me would lead to a similar result as the last time I was day 1 eliminated for little or no reason. He's not wrong, as you are holding on to your assumptions way to strenuously.

2) I think you're being a literalist here again. Obviously different players play town and scum differently. You should ask him about his scum reads, not me.

3) I think a lot of people think that you started defending GB too quickly. All I did was ask a few ice breaker questions and you decided I was trying to eliminate him.

In general, you are holding on to your opinions to tightly even in the face of opposition, and even when there is good/logical reasoning against them. Just because you say something loudly doesn't make it true. And either you are scum who is trying to hard to get town lynched or you are just communicating badly.

NPOM, you're doing alot of explaining what VP was thinking. Why?

[Billy Pilgrim]

1) I'm assuming he's guessing that you are smart enough to sense mislynch bait and you think I am it, and that eliminating me would lead to a similar result as the last time I was day 1 eliminated for little or no reason. He's not wrong, as you are holding on to your assumptions way to strenuously.

Look at this from HIS pov. He literally said that in that particular game, you got mislynched easily. And that scum had to do nothing for it. Everyone pushing you in that game was TOWN.
How does that make him scumread me for doing that, in this game? Where is the logic from his pov?

I actually explained this already. I think it was snowblaze who asked me?

I was actually thinking I might have been wrong in my initial scum read of you, but your completely over the top reaction and OMGUS to a single vote is very interesting.

Let's get some more votes on Icon pls. Hellbrooks, testarossa, we got a live one over here.

Ok now im interested, you admit that you may have been wrong in your initial scumread. Icon points that out says your bad logic (which you've already admitted) makes you scummy and now you characterize his reaction to a bad push as "completely over the top" and "OMGUS." Please explain this logic.

VOTE: VP

[Billy Pilgrim]

@Andres - I see you think Icon is scummy and VP is town. You have any other reads?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Hey Jam, you got thoughts or did you drop this game like the premier league dropped Watford?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Honestly the dude seemed testy, which could be scum or could be a way town reacts to jokey rvs. The fact that he doubled down on it almost feels too scummy to be scum. But i thought that overt hostility was too scummy to be scum before and that player ended up being scum. So this is something that im going to treat as a play style thing that may be less so later.

To come back at this, I don't get this thought process at all. So your impression on NPOM intensified that he was too scummy to be scummy and you had a similar case before (in another game?), where exactly said player ended up being scum, so you back off here... because...?

Also can you point out where NPOM was showing hostility (he was annoyed, sure, but hostility is a stronger word imo) and why you thought this hostility was scummy (or too scummy) and couldn't have come from hostile town?

I am voting here for a few reasons. I felt Iconeum was overly eager to cast a Scum net over NPOM, and I would describe the certainty that George Bailey is Town as a factor as well. I have no real certainty on whether Iconeum, NPOM or George Bailey are Town or Scum. I am not going to pretend that I have a solid answer here. But the whole Town slipping thing and arguing so strongly that there was a Town mindset just seems off to me.

One thing that I don't really get on the Ico push is the motivation for the shown certainty of Icoscum pointing out GB as town via "slip". Why not just attacking NPOM for his questions and using GB's comment as basis for his push on GB instead of coming up with a townslip? I mean it's not that Ico has even used the townslip to pocket GB (to be fair, GB disappeared after that for a while), so it feels kind of unnecessary to risk a tmi slip.

@NPOM, can you explain your hellbooks townlean? I'm not really getting any read from her posts so far.

We are not getting any reads from you either. Not a single one so far in fact.

1 time in like 15 games is a small sample size. I've also seen other games where I thought someone was acting what I'll consider unnecessarily hostile and ended up town. The one difference is that the hostility in the game where the dude was scum was to site culture around V/LA and this was also what I thought was overt hostility to RVS. So my first inclination is that its too scummy to be scum. The fact that I was wrong once means im cautious, in backing off too far. I literally said it was something that I filed away and I'd be back to this slot later.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Let's get some more votes on Icon pls. Hellbrooks, testarossa, we got a live one over here.

Nah, still solidly town on Ico. :shrug:
Like my read is mostly based on my impression of his personality that he displayed so far and looks pretty consistent to me as he started with getting excited in finding a supposed towntell for GB and getting through that to an early scumread to push until getting hotheaded and genuinely annoyed that an illogical scumread (with which I agree with to a certain extent) was used to push him. Like he comes across to me as someone that would rather break through the wall then just run past it and this showed in his back and forth with you guys, while I still feel he is trying to resolve it like he was trying with NPOM, which looked like a townie approach to me. Stuff like omgus is rather nai, especially if it becomes emotional.
Also helps that I have warmed up to have Datisi as town, who seems to be strongly familiar with Ico, so him defending Ico gives me a bit reassurement here.

Not really away from NPOM, but I feel it's locking too much into NPOM/Icon and I don't really like Billy's posts or what he isn't doing atm.

Tell me more. I'm also interested in this.

The Ico/NPOM part or the Billy part?

If the former it felt to me that everyone was just focussing on that skirmish or to keep their noses out without looking offside of there imo. Like I don't think it was SvS, for that both sides seemed too annoyed. So either TvT that was befired by someone (or scum holding back) or TvS, but then only within you or NPOM imo. But I am not that sure about that anymore, NPOM recent posts were better and I am still around null with you, which might be because you were mainly involved with Ico so far. I just feel the situation was stagnating, which wouldn't necessarily make sense if one side has scum advantage.

As for Billy, I found his response pretty vague, his handling of NPOM still looks weird, but judgement is still holding out here. What triggered me more was him appearing again only to respond to critical posts towards him, like I get one just feel obligated to it, but that is actually something I see from scum too often. Didn't helped that he wasn't really trying to get reads on people or attempted to look for scum. After all he had the luxury to come late in to have already some juicy stuff at hand. Didn't know of the storm issue of course, but still that entrance was quite lackluster.

I like the posts where people critique me. I have a better sense of self about the game than sense of others so I feel like I do well reading other people's cases of me to get a sense of their perspective.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Let's get some more votes on Icon pls. Hellbrooks, testarossa, we got a live one over here.

Nah, still solidly town on Ico. :shrug:
Like my read is mostly based on my impression of his personality that he displayed so far and looks pretty consistent to me as he started with getting excited in finding a supposed towntell for GB and getting through that to an early scumread to push until getting hotheaded and genuinely annoyed that an illogical scumread (with which I agree with to a certain extent) was used to push him. Like he comes across to me as someone that would rather break through the wall then just run past it and this showed in his back and forth with you guys, while I still feel he is trying to resolve it like he was trying with NPOM, which looked like a townie approach to me. Stuff like omgus is rather nai, especially if it becomes emotional.
Also helps that I have warmed up to have Datisi as town, who seems to be strongly familiar with Ico, so him defending Ico gives me a bit reassurement here.

Not really away from NPOM, but I feel it's locking too much into NPOM/Icon and I don't really like Billy's posts or what he isn't doing atm.

Tell me more. I'm also interested in this.

The Ico/NPOM part or the Billy part?

If the former it felt to me that everyone was just focussing on that skirmish or to keep their noses out without looking offside of there imo. Like I don't think it was SvS, for that both sides seemed too annoyed. So either TvT that was befired by someone (or scum holding back) or TvS, but then only within you or NPOM imo. But I am not that sure about that anymore, NPOM recent posts were better and I am still around null with you, which might be because you were mainly involved with Ico so far. I just feel the situation was stagnating, which wouldn't necessarily make sense if one side has scum advantage.

As for Billy, I found his response pretty vague, his handling of NPOM still looks weird, but judgement is still holding out here. What triggered me more was him appearing again only to respond to critical posts towards him, like I get one just feel obligated to it, but that is actually something I see from scum too often. Didn't helped that he wasn't really trying to get reads on people or attempted to look for scum. After all he had the luxury to come late in to have already some juicy stuff at hand. Didn't know of the storm issue of course, but still that entrance was quite lackluster.

lol this post is scum i just cant explain it but its probably all the big complex epxlainations and big words that do it

Huh? Oh shit we're not gonna jibe like at all.

[Billy Pilgrim]

also how many scum are in a mini normal cause this is my firs ttime playing a mini normal

Slip

[Billy Pilgrim]

Snowblaze is also probably town.

Are you townreading them? If so why?

[Billy Pilgrim]

also how many scum are in a mini normal cause this is my firs ttime playing a mini normal

pls some1 answer this

Slip again. In a game of this size, I'd guess three. Someone posted a formula for me once, but I dont remember it exactly. It may have been town equals 3*(number of scum) +1. So 13 = s+3s+1. So 12 =4s, s=3.

[Billy Pilgrim]

why do you think datisi is town?

i'm not saying she's not, but i'd like to hear your reasoning behind it

we can discuss that after u flip scum <3

you are sheeping my townreads but somehow i'm scum

also said townreads are basicly all townreading me but somehow you still think i'm scum

VOTE: dkkoba

Did you miss the slip? Or is there a reason you're not weighting it.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I see some are scumreading baltar and i can see where they are coming from. Inoc still bothers me but it could be SPP.

VOTE: VP Baltar

Can you please explain how you got here a little more?

[Billy Pilgrim]

billy, that "slip" is deadass the easiest thing to fake as scum, please don't

I asked if there was a reason he wasn't weighting it. I know that its fake able. Shit I faked a better slip in a game with you. Im just saying, its a slip.

[Billy Pilgrim]

billy, that "slip" is deadass the easiest thing to fake as scum, please don't

I asked if there was a reason he wasn't weighting it. I know that its fake able. Shit I faked a better slip in a game with you. Im just saying, its a slip.

Sorry, they. My bad.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Billy and you at least.

yeah i think that pretty much sums up my feelings

+1

[Billy Pilgrim]

Billy and you at least.

So hold on here. You're scunreading Icon for much of the early game. You're null on VP at 217 despite using similar terminology to his characterization of Icon's vote. Then I vote VP, over his interactions with Icon, while I'm not in your town category. So you moved off your only scumread from 222 based on the reasoning of a player you still have as null and your scumread?


Where we at on VC because I wanna vote here?

[Billy Pilgrim]

VOTE: NPOM

[Billy Pilgrim]

Iconeum bases her reads based almost entirely on how people react to her alone.

She doesn't seem to have the capability to step outside of her shoes and put herself into someone else's situation.

She tends to hyperfocus on someone when she thinks she is being wronged.

This is my psychoanalysis anyways. She has acted scummy, but the more I think about her interactions the more she seems town.

This post is slightly townie.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Whereas in this game scum (you) have chosen to jump on them early and use the concept that NPOM is safely pushable to attract neutral/positive attention early in the game. Pretty sure thats what vp's point was? Anyway my read on you extends past that concept and includes your progression from the early push even though it does circle back and tie in vp's initial argument.

How could I have known that NPOW is or isn't a safe push? I've never played with the dude before.
What progression did I make according to you?

I mean, you could probably tell based on just their first few posts, i think. And i think i explained before its like there was an agenda to starting a fight with them then and there, it just didn't seem towny to me. And ever since then its like, you're sort of overeager to engage with people but only about the idea that they're SRing you because you think if you can draw enough attention to the topic of you being scum then people will be convinced you'd never be so brazen unless you were town. and thats unnatural to want to do as town imo because what would that even achieve?. and the bits where you're scumhunting don't seem sincere in comparison.

You seem really committed to the idea that icon did the "easy push" on NPOM which is pinging me a bit. Wrt engaging with people that are scumreading you, you think that can't be related to a mentality to solve? You don't think you can find scum from the way that people case you?

[Billy Pilgrim]

janko, do you think getting annoyed at people pushing you is scum!indicative?

talk to me friend

hey there! umm its context dependant and playstyle dependant. on the whole no, both alignments probably tend to get annoyed at being pushed. Although town might be annoyed i feel like they have a strong focus in and around scumhunting and that should be visible despite their frustration. Whereas, scum can just get a bit tunnel visioned defending themselves and having a lack of general awareness about the game and other slots since they naturally have to manually direct energy toward scum hunting since they feel defending themselves and tunnel visioning on their own pressure are more vital prospects. Whereas town are naturally inclined to scum hunt and task themselves with figuring out whether those pushing them are scum. I feel like scum would focus more on the pressure/push arguments (like what i think icon is doing) whereas town would also be visibly focusing on the persons pushing them and who is scum in general.

how many reference games would you like where i react like this and i am town? Like, how many would you need to see in order to believe this comes from town!Ico?

God I see this and I think its scum, but I know from playing with Ico this aggressive self-meta is solidly within his town range.

[Billy Pilgrim]

janko, do you think getting annoyed at people pushing you is scum!indicative?

talk to me friend

hey there! umm its context dependant and playstyle dependant. on the whole no, both alignments probably tend to get annoyed at being pushed. Although town might be annoyed i feel like they have a strong focus in and around scumhunting and that should be visible despite their frustration. Whereas, scum can just get a bit tunnel visioned defending themselves and having a lack of general awareness about the game and other slots since they naturally have to manually direct energy toward scum hunting since they feel defending themselves and tunnel visioning on their own pressure are more vital prospects. Whereas town are naturally inclined to scum hunt and task themselves with figuring out whether those pushing them are scum. I feel like scum would focus more on the pressure/push arguments (like what i think icon is doing) whereas town would also be visibly focusing on the persons pushing them and who is scum in general.

What do these two things look like in practice, because this to me doesn't look much different.

[Billy Pilgrim]

ico exhibiting the scum mindset of being frustrated over being scumread over what they perceive as the "wrong reasons"

This feels like shade. So is responding to being scumread scum indicative for you?

[Billy Pilgrim]

VOTE: dkkoba

Gonna sheep cause Datisi is the most townie player in the game and I trust him.

Aside from Datisi town, what are your other independent reads at the moment?

[Billy Pilgrim]

VOTE: dkkoba
Serious offer btw. Im that confident in my read

Really, self-vote already? How many games have you played on here?

[Billy Pilgrim]

I feel like around 20-21-22 some of this game turned into a meta conversation about how to play. I wanted to make a note of it, but I'm not sure what it means.

[Billy Pilgrim]

ok billy

what does that tell you about testarossa

Testa feels like they're cautiously solving. Their posts feel analytical which fits with how I approach in not being overly eager to commit.

Pedit: thats not an unfair characterization. Sometimes I leave notes to myself of things that jump out that become ingredients of analysis later.

This meta conversation is an easy way to inflate lost count and look active. It may also be something that someone does stylistically. Look games of imperfect information are pretty difficult to play.

[Billy Pilgrim]

billy i think u are town but why npom

Day 1 I'm primarily looking for reads progressions that seem more shaped by external circumstances than a logical thought process. This felt more shaped by external circumstances. Later votes sort of went that direction as well.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Is NPOM still your top scumread, Billy?

I'm still like 400 posts behind so give me a minute. But as of that last question I just answered from Dkkoba, thats my top suspect, yes.

[Billy Pilgrim]

UNVOTE:
andres feelin a little towny from p. 11

VOTE: SnowBlaze

I agree with Hellbooks on:

most of your actions as of late have seemed to ask people to clarify something or other which could be genuine or could be busy work, am waiting to see how you follow up on these things

It seems a lot like what I thought NPOM was doing earlier.

might join u on this even tho george bailey

also how many scum are in a mini normal cause this is my firs ttime playing a mini normal

............................................scummy

Why is asking how many scum are in the game scummy?

[Billy Pilgrim]

is it weird that im more paranoid of ppl who are able to vocalize their reads better and townread ppl who have confident reads but cannot explain them as succinctly?? i feel like weird brain rn

Who are said ppl?

Vote Billy or snowblaze pls

This is your third post asking people to build a wagon on either me or SB, why are you so confident on both of us?

[Billy Pilgrim]

@Datisi who is the wolf on Ico? Let's wagon!

i do not know (◕︿◕✿) andres is giving me that big Pocketing Koba Vibes, and just, pointing out in 322 and 327 how he's probably barking up the wrong tree, how his townreads are townreading ico, how i'm making a lot of valid points (and also pointing out there's no longer voting ico in 507 for some reason?) and is just like that now back. however i'm not done talking to janko and he's kinda Not Here right now so it's a bit hard judge where his head's at.

If thats whats happening hes pocketing quite a few people. You, VP, Koba. I mean he found a way to get back onto icon so you may be right though.

[Billy Pilgrim]

i am also trying to pocket dk koba

Huh?

[Billy Pilgrim]

why do you think datisi is town?

i'm not saying she's not, but i'd like to hear your reasoning behind it

we can discuss that after u flip scum <3

you are sheeping my townreads but somehow i'm scum

also said townreads are basicly all townreading me but somehow you still think i'm scum

VOTE: dkkoba

Did you miss the slip? Or is there a reason you're not weighting it.

if anything, i was at the verge of pushing him on such an obviously faked question coming from a player with his experience
i'd expect the question in a newb game, or from a new player in general.

Why are you giving towncredit to an *experienced* player who doesn't seem to know how many scum are to be expected in 13 players?

I didnt realize how experienced they were at the time (the account creation date was only 6 months old). And come on man, don't be a dick. Respect their pronouns.

[Billy Pilgrim]

why do you think datisi is town?

i'm not saying she's not, but i'd like to hear your reasoning behind it

we can discuss that after u flip scum <3

you are sheeping my townreads but somehow i'm scum

also said townreads are basicly all townreading me but somehow you still think i'm scum

VOTE: dkkoba

Did you miss the slip? Or is there a reason you're not weighting it.

if anything, i was at the verge of pushing him on such an obviously faked question coming from a player with his experience
i'd expect the question in a newb game, or from a new player in general.

Why are you giving towncredit to an *experienced* player who doesn't seem to know how many scum are to be expected in 13 players?

But these answers effectively explain it. I know you normally weight slips which is why i was curious.

[Billy Pilgrim]

So why have you decided each and every time to attack the players who seem to have more openly suspected you early in the game, to the point where you’ve placed three different votes on those three different players? Could it be because you take votes as personal slights as Town and feel like you should push all those players?

Because I felt (still do) the pushes were made up, and were based on wrong/terrible/faked reasoning. Take your pick. I fought NPOW over his actions. Guess what. We ended up townreading each other (degrees may vary).

I fought VP. From the way he handled my slot the day after our fight I ended up townreading him. I made a post on the why exactly earlier.

Then when my wagon was dying, Dkkoba joins the game and has this bitch ass attitude towards everyone and refused to explain his reads/votes.
So I ended up fighting him. Difference here is that I don't townread him after our discussion. His motivation for this fight is scum.

Your presumption that me pushing back against people who push me is scum-motivated is simply wrong.

Given NPOM's progressions why are they above null? I get that its weak, but this is the read im not getting from you.

[Billy Pilgrim]

actually VP- why the push on me and Blaze as opposed to Alduskkel? I legit forgot they were in this game.

[Billy Pilgrim]

zzz

VOTE: janko

game difficult

is there anything making snowblaze town to you other than That One Post

You switched off of Andres really quickly. In fact I dont even think they made a post. Why?

[Billy Pilgrim]

zzz

VOTE: janko

game difficult

is there anything making snowblaze town to you other than That One Post

Oh shit sorry, confused you with NPOM

[Billy Pilgrim]

How is anyone seeing this as town?

1) complains about getting wagoned when never facing any actual pressure
2) says she can't scumhunt rn because it's D1
3) THEN says she's definitely not being useless, despite just saying she's not pushing the game forward.
4) then says "jk if I am useless, it's not AI"

Where are your reads at? I feel like Koba, NPOM, Icon, Datisi and probably Amdres have generated enough content that you should have some reads there. Where you at?

UNVOTE:
VOTE: snowblaze

Complaining about being wagoned is NAI. I just hate it as either alignment.

I never said I couldn't scumhunt because it's day one, I said I don't usually have strong scumreads on day one. That doesn't mean I'm not scumhunting.

And, you know, I'm not being useless. I'm engaging with people, I'm giving reads, I'm looking at things that interest me. That is not useless.

I do think that being useless to town is NAI, yes. Scum can make themselves useful, town can not be useful. It depends a lot more on the player than their alignment.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I don’t have any particular objection to this wagon, but at the same time I’m kind of second-guessing myself and wondering how much of my read is unconscious OMGUS. And I’m not sure I want this to turn into a 1v1 like it easily could become if I were to vote there, not when it’s still early and there’s still plenty of players floating under the radar.

What wagon are you talking about? Because you're the lead wagon and if you don't have an objection to a wagon on yourself. . .

[Billy Pilgrim]

The poor logic is that snow not hunting and being useless = scum.

And also that I’m not hunting and being useless because I don’t have strong scumreads on day one.

So what is the argument to not yeet you? We should trust you're going to do stuff later?

You keep saying you don't have strong scum reads...well who the hell does D1? You have to take some level of gamble. You're trying to hide behind the lack of info D1 to not actually do anything. That's excuse making and is scummy.

Now is your chance to give some thoughts. If not, then you need to go.

Baltar is giving me more confidence that they're town.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Ok im in the late 700s, that wagon built up fast. With the only opposition being NPOM.

[Billy Pilgrim]

@Billy: You're aligning yourself with the wrong side.

The wrong side of what?

[Billy Pilgrim]

VP and Hell are definately scummy. DKK is not looking good but could be bad town.

Why is VP scum? And why did Icon drop out of your scumreads?

[Billy Pilgrim]

You want me to hammer someone without letting them even claim?

Uh... they claimed. Were you not paying attention?

[Billy Pilgrim]

also did snow claim with intent on them

Nope. Just at the first sign of E-1.

Correct, although in fairness, hellbooks for some reason told them to claim, which is like incomprehensible.

[Billy Pilgrim]

VOTE: Testarossa im willing to compromise for this (:

This seemed to come out of left field. Can you explain?

[Billy Pilgrim]

IM ACTUALLY GONNA BE MAD IF TERRA FLIPS TOWN BC IT WOULD BE KINDA EPIC WITH THE SPEED THE COUNTERWAGON HAPPENED. THE SPEEEEEEEED

Both these wagons build up very quickly, with some players doing both.

[Billy Pilgrim]

> sees a scumread who has been lurking the whole time, without addressing literally anything asked his way, jump out of the shadows to put a very fast wagon to L-1 then disappear again
> ur resoning is nOt tOwN )))))))))

pedit: lmfao yeah it has nothing to do with what testa said, i saw my scumread vote there and i'm sure as fuck pumping the breaks on that

"bussing exists" yeah sure and if janko/testa are scum together that is the literally shittiest bus in all of existence and i would sooner bet on them being s/t

i asked him something, it's somewhere in my iso, also like no comment to literally anything that's going on

Also I dont think Janko was on Snow. So thats a meaningful data point and difference.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Literally everyone still on the snowblaze wagon is pretty solid town reads from most people in the game. A magical testarossa counter wagon emerges from nowhere to stop this elim?

Naw, dawg.

I need to spend some time today to closely dissect what happened, but now I'm more confident in testarossa town. Snowblaze is scum.

You think the scum play when you're being wagoned is to townread your counterwagon then try and start a counter-counterwagon on someone that left you for your counterwagon? I mean I'm missing the scum motivation in that play specifically.

[Billy Pilgrim]

vp was reacting to stuff similar to how i would in their catch up post, and I'm seeing sincere motivation and perception behind andres' posting

npom could be scum. "missing" snows claim and asking her what it was instead of just scrolling back and finding it is giving me scum pings. seems to be "active lurking".

anyway i'm sheeping koba's list and would vote to hang in {testa, ico, npom}

Please explain the second paragraph.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I lied. I'm just going to skip breakfast and do this catch up now.

but after the wagon I am not so sure what to think of it. It kind of happened a bit too fast for my liking. But I am a bit at a loss because I am town or null on all on the wagon.

This is my point. The speed of the wagon doesn't matter if literally everyone on it is town. We shouldn't be afraid to be right. Speed wagons that form on scum are actually super powerful because they put the scum in a bad position without a calculated response. I completely think snow is the right play and the counter wagon on testarossa is going to yield a ton of information upon flip.

also if u think in a game with 3 scum with so many v high energy players that at the very least snow!scum wouldnt be at the very least be coached in scum chat rn, then thats absurd.

Ah, this explains what you said above perhaps. Maybe I'm out of practice here. Is scum day chat a pretty standard function? I did have it in my last couple scum games, but there seemed to be theme/setup reasons in those games for that to exist. I wouldn't have assumed all normal games have scum day chat. What's site meta currently?



Koba and Aldsukkel are probably the worst of the testarossa votes, imo.

I actually lied, Janks vote is bad too.

There's almost no explanation of this wagon other than "tess uses a lot of words' and "I don't like snow wagon"

Gosh, I can't wait for Billy to weigh in on all this. On D2.

lol'd

Let's counterwagon.

VOTE: Andresvmb.

Translation: "I know tess will flip town, so I'm going to find a spot to park my vote that won't draw suspicion D2"

I checked the wiki for an answer and apparently for scum to have day chat they either need a live encryptor or there needs to be an announcement in the rules.

[Billy Pilgrim]

The scummy side.

What because I think the most suspect players are you Koba and Jank? Who am I aligning myself with thats scummy?

[Billy Pilgrim]

@Billy: You're aligning yourself with the wrong side.

Also, I think this sort of implicitly reflects a scum perspective. Like it implicitly assumes someone's trying to play with a team mentality. Something about this feels weird.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I really like my NPOM vote. Can we get more votes there? I dont see why this is a vanity wagon at the moment.

[Billy Pilgrim]

if I can't get people to join me on NPOM then I'll help out this wagon.

VOTE: Jank

[Billy Pilgrim]

I yoinked that pagetop.

[Billy Pilgrim]

that is such a shallow understanding lol

that logic applies best to chat mafia settings where days can literally last 3 minutes with a speed han.

u literally have >1000 posts of content already.

regardless ur point still doesn't address why u ranked testa so low and are allergic to hard hanging them. i have them just as low as u and I am calling for them to see rope v hard

This is a good point. You've got a mismatch between your reads list and conduct here, why?

[Billy Pilgrim]

To clarify based on recent discussion, mafia do have day talk. This has been reflected upon in the rules.

Did this change in the normal queue? Someone should update the wiki.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Can someone who is not Koba tell me if scum always have day chat? The fact that it needs to be in the rules makes me think not...

Another way to put it, has anyone played a recent game that didn't have scum day chat?

How recent? I played a game within the year that didn't have it, and it was a normal.

[Billy Pilgrim]

i realized what's bugging me about andres, he has a kinda weirdly similar posting talking style to one player i played with a few months ago that was scum... or like really really reminds me of him. this itself is not scum-indicative however. but it's making me uneasy. i will have to reread his iso soon...

This seems completely NAI, regardless. ISOing him seems fine, but being suspicious based on someone else talking similar...

...someone is coocoo for Coco puffs today

You read that as a reason for the scumread? I read that as Dats reconsidering his? Read based on realizing that he was probably conf!biasing based on the previous experience.

@Dats - can you clarify for me?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Ok there's alot of people positioning around a NPOM wagon, lets see if that goes like the other ones.

VOTE: NPOM

[Billy Pilgrim]

it makes no sense that testa was NPOM's #2 scumread, and NPOM was the second to last vote on the wagon, but now suddenly NPOM is squicked by the wagon and no longer wants to vote testa.

And then voted it after they were getting critiqued about this obvious mismatch.

[Billy Pilgrim]

if testa flips town then npom is always town

remember that

Why exactly?

[Billy Pilgrim]

test not only has posted since the wagon, Test weighed in with their thoughts on said wagon. What are you talking about?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Do females use the term bruh? I think you just revealed your gender.

The number of reasons I want this slot dead keep growing.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Bob that large normal game we played together that went on forever and felt like it was never gonna end, were you scum or town that game?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Bob wanna join me on NPOM?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Bob is town. More votes on NPOM please. We had two flash wagons and NPOM has been hopping on virtually every wagon but the Test wagon (until it deflated) and a bunch of people have positioned to get on it if necessary but won't join it early. Can we please elim that slot. I think its a good chance of hitting scum.

[Billy Pilgrim]

For now I am cool with this:

VOTE: jankofan


Also @Billy:
Why is bob town?

I didnt really think snow was scum and the way Bob has come in fits town!Bob. I also am a bit hesitant given how two wagons flashed really fast and a wagon on NPOM can't get off the ground. I also think the way Snow played while you were being wagoned isnt really a scum way to handle that.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Caught up despite interruptions. I am town on Koba now, they come out townier of the confrontation with NPOM, I agree with most things they said in that regard. Also think their acting with votes between me, NPOM and bob is less scum indicative here. From my point of view it makes more sense for scum to push my elim through, because once I flip as the flash town counterwagon to Snowbob, that slot will get eliminated in most scenarios on D2, so if bob is town it would make more sense to line us up in the order me, then bob. That ensures two easy miselims.

Normally liking NPOM less now, his 1063 wasn't good and nothing there was anti-town from Koba. I understand Koba and Andres are associating him with me though and NPOM going elsewhere with his vote (Baltar, janko) doesn't really make sense for scumNPOM from my point of view, he could just chill on me without getting into the spotlight like he did. I can see him being scum with bob, however I am still rather leaning town on that slot, so rather more likely townNPOM too.

Where are you at on Bob, because this feels like youre at town!Bob? I'm also having trouble seeing how you're getting to Koba town, because isnt this exact thought process that youre outlining for scum what Koba is doing?

[Billy Pilgrim]

I didnt really think snow was scum and the way Bob has come in fits town!Bob. I also am a bit hesitant given how two wagons flashed really fast and a wagon on NPOM can't get off the ground. I also think the way Snow played while you were being wagoned isnt really a scum way to handle that.

This... doesn't really answer my question. Why does the way he got into the game fits to townbob? I actually disagree on your last sentence, as I said, from her point of view as scum it would be better if I don't die unless she just want to make the sacrifice on D2. Baltar also had a good take on it (too tired to look for the post rn).

Why you pressing me on this? Our reads align, so im confused by why you need more details. I drew a different conclusion from the wagon, but here's what I'm confused about. We had two flash wagons in a matter of days with alot of overlap on the people on it. Snow/Bob was first, you were second. Im looking more at wagon composition in drawing my conclusion. I dont see how scum drove one and not the other with as much overlap as was there.

Honestly I'm more confused by you asking for more detail from me on what was obviously more a gut read than anything else (dude had been here for like 5 pages) when my read aligned with yours.

I dont see how from town!Test's perspective, you look at 2 flash wagons with a decent bit of overlap and not think they're scum influenced.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I agree with other ppl

snow's rep out was like trying not to be defeatist in tone and Bob just reads like a classic scum rob

Whoo that pinged hard.

[Billy Pilgrim]

scum are more prone to defeatism than town when they get pushed because their entire job is to survive. I said the exit post feels like it's trying not to appear defeatist.

I mean I feel like you don't understand that I'm reading people based on shallow intuitions at this stage with no flips and you're expecting perfectly logical reasons for having voted people and using that as the basis to push me is scummy aswell. which makes sense because I'm pretty sure you're actually scum.

that's actually where the idea of scum robot comes into it. scum don't have intuitions because they have the burden of not having anything to have intuitions about, nothing to solve they're just filling gaps on ways that are convenient. bob feels like he's latching onto details and trying to logic his way through reads and it's not reading that their compelled by their own statements. reading back over snow in hindsight I get the same vibe actually. contrast that to datisi who seems pretty emotionally invested in her read and push on me being justified and corroborated which would be harder to fake.

If you think scum plays from an exclusively survivalist mentality, why doesn't Snow push her counterwagon? Instead she townread it and pushed, i think you if I remember correctly. How are you reading that as remotely survivalist. She probably could have gotten the kill by pushing Test.

I think this is bullshit.

[Billy Pilgrim]

@Alduskkel, vote Bob so that we get this one through. I can’t say I care about this Janko push and I really can’t figure out this game without seeing a flip at this point. And I don’t know why wherever Ico runs to, Datisi follows.

You realize Datisi was on Jank before Icon came off V/LA right?

[Billy Pilgrim]

God i want the NPOM flip to happen bad but I can't get anyone to join me there. Jank is my second choice and that has only solidified since defending their switch on the Snow read. Also, I dont wanna flip Bob.

VOTE: JankofAn

Npom had put this wagon to five, but then hopped over to Bob. So this means Bob is at G-1 while Jank is at G-2

[Billy Pilgrim]

It shouldn't be about who your first and second choices are, at least at this point, it needs to be about what's going to get town to where it needs to be at this point. DKK is the most likely town at this point what point is there to going against their elimination choice?

Koba is the most vocal. Why the hell does that make them the most likely town?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Datisi, do you know snow IRL?

no, i just saw [stuff] but can't talk about it

Ico & Datisi - do you town read the Bob slot or you just think janko is scum for changing reads on it?

i literally said i think bob is being townie

Right, because I said you have no reasoning of your own Datisi.

I think Janko has a lot less content, so is an easier push. And is nowhere near as aggressive at defending themselves (that seems obvious in light of the last 4 pages), so people might be more inclined to switch over there and not feel bad about it. Well, I don’t see Janko flipping Scum so I’m not voting there. Good luck getting that one through.

what does it matter who is an easier push or not??? like if i wanted an easy push with no content i'd go george or aldus like tf is this post even saying?

You’re great at throwing shade, not great at trying to think through what others are saying if it remotely conflicts with what you’re saying.

It shows no conviction. That’s why it matters. If you’re a hard Scum Read for me, you bet I’m going to be pushing you as hard as I can, and actually keeping my vote there. Bob said I “reeked of Scum”, but votes Janko? It’s total BS.

And who is arguing that this applies to you? You aren’t even reading it in context. I’m arguing that Janko was a far easier push

for Bob

(instead of VPB or me), which explains the vote. Now, others have aligned there.

With this logic, why arent you voting NPOM for doing the same think by having Testa low in the scum reads (2nd most scum) then not voting them as the wagon was building, and stubbornly sitting off until the wagon deflated then voting there to appease Koba. Like why the fuck doesn't anyone see what i do with NPOM.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Why you pressing me on this? Our reads align, so im confused by why you need more details. I drew a different conclusion from the wagon, but here's what I'm confused about. We had two flash wagons in a matter of days with alot of overlap on the people on it. Snow/Bob was first, you were second. Im looking more at wagon composition in drawing my conclusion. I dont see how scum drove one and not the other with as much overlap as was there.

Honestly I'm more confused by you asking for more detail from me on what was obviously more a gut read than anything else (dude had been here for like 5 pages) when my read aligned with yours.

I dont see how from town!Test's perspective, you look at 2 flash wagons with a decent bit of overlap and not think they're scum influenced.

Because our reads align and I am not town on you I am interested in it. It didn't looked to me like a gut read with meaning that his entrance fits into his town persona sounded to me like you know more about him. Anyway no use in hairsplitting either.

I don't know how you reach that last conclusion. Literally half of my wagon ended up on bob, why do you think I am avoiding that wagon and even joined the counterwagon? (my reads on bob and janko aside)

This was the result of me being confused. Now that I get that youre at Town!Bob, your play makes sense. My confusion was in you asking me for clarification when our reads were aligned. Now I get that it was about me and not Bob. Sorry my answers weren't more helpful.

[Billy Pilgrim]

@Mod can we get a vote count?

I think we got both wagons at L-1 right now.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I don't mind waiting if people have something to say.

@NPOM - I want thoughts from you and not where you try and push off the blame on Koba. Who is the better elimination and why? You've voted both these wagons today and kinda late, so you need to weigh in here.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Ok, how does critiquing NPOm for calling you top town, which to me reads like a weird pocket attempt mean that im calling you scum?

[Billy Pilgrim]

billy has shaded me throughout without explicitly saying it

Because your playstyle is mad abrasive and its hard for me to read that right. I know that abrasive playstyle =/= alignment so Im trying to backoff in service of not misreading you. That said, NPOM seems to be following you based loosely on what I'd call a BoP and thats pissing me off because it allows them to hide behind you.

You think the way they've been almost deferring to you is independent?

[Billy Pilgrim]

VOTE: npom lets see where the folks who say they scumread this slot are. I wanna see something

I tried this earlier and couldn't even get you to move off, can we actually make this happen?

VOTE: NPOM

[Billy Pilgrim]

@Billy Your lack of discipline is infuriating. You’re basically condemning Jankofan because you couldn’t get what you wanted initially. And I’m a bit surprised that DkKoba is acting this way. You may as well vote for Jankofan. Helping disintegrate the counterwagon at this stage is as good as a death sentence. Just vote Janko then and end this.

Explain this please?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Wait did you move out of Janko. Ah never mind haha I thought you were on Bob. My bad carry on.

I kinda thought you missed that which is why i asked you to explain. Koba moved off Bob and I moved off Janko. You had said you thought NPOM was scummy. Feel free to join us here.

[Billy Pilgrim]

@Alduskkel, you were one of the people positioning around the NPOM wagon. You too Andres. If you both moved over it would be Janko at 5 and NPOM at 4.

*screams in Garnett voice* ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE

[Billy Pilgrim]

Like I thought, no one wants to get on NPOM. Aldus and Andres both positioned to get on bht wouldn't get on. I want Janko more than Bob and I dont want to give an opportunity to get rid of Janko.

VOTE: Janko

G-1

[Billy Pilgrim]

Billy u didnt even give it time

2 people that were dancing around this wagon have posted and refused to hop on. That tells me 1) its not happening. And 2) I think a flip will give me information about the two of them.

[Billy Pilgrim]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Icon

NPOM seems like he's pretty inexperienced. No way scum comes out and actually goes SRS MODE in RVS. The real goof here is Icon trying to make that seem scummy.

(In fact, NPOM was a pretty easy misyeet D1 in a recent game I played. He was similarly overeager to scum hunt, and the scum team just sat back and let that be a fail. Only took slight prodding to make it an all town wagon. NPOM was town vig that game.)

...wait, hang on. You're saying that he was miseliminated by an all-town wagon, with scum just sitting back and letting it happen, in a previous game.

And you also think Iconeum is scum for scumreading him, when you've just established that town have scumread him previously.

Am I missing something here, or does that not make much sense? Why do you think Iconeum's scumread on NPOM is scum-motivated?

This post is townie. Dont agree with the conclusion but I like the thought process.

hi billy

could you quickly tell me exactly which conclusion you didn't agree with here?

You know re-reading that, I realize I read the initial post wrong. I thought there was an NPOM = town conclusion that really wasn't there. So I dont know what I was referring to.

[Billy Pilgrim]

So Bob was obviously the right wagon. I don't see 13 players all being wrong.


VOTE: Bob

Why can't all the town be wrong when scum can be steering the ship? And does this make you feel anyway about Test? Because that was also a wagon?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Look, NPOM was scummy yesterday and this is also scummy. Pushing the EoD counterwagon on the basis that town couldn't have been wrong. So he's simulataneously pushing a wagon while leaving himself an out for responsibility. What is your scum!case of Bob NPOM?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Look, NPOM was scummy yesterday and this is also scummy. Pushing the EoD counterwagon on the basis that town couldn't have been wrong. So he's simulataneously pushing a wagon while leaving himself an out for responsibility. What is your scum!case of Bob NPOM?

Meant to add this VOTE: NPOM

[Billy Pilgrim]

the second paragraph is an afterthought that might be wrong. george's position on janko wagon made me think he was a likely scum candidate. obviously that's now proven wrong.

my point is, if bob were scum, what were his scumbuddies doing? looking at me screaming at janko the entirety of day one, only for that wagon to barely go through? i don't think that's likely. if they were committed to bussing bob, bob would've died. if they were actually trying to save him, i would've gotten more support earlier. i think the game didn't care too much which one of the two wagons got through. hence TvT.

See, this is strong analysis on the wagons NPOM, and explains a likely tvt situation.

[Billy Pilgrim]

im sorry but i seem to remember offering the npom wagon b4 aldu quickhammered

I read enough of the gamestate to realize it wasn't going to happen. I preferred janko to Bob. Clearly, I was wrong.

[Billy Pilgrim]

the second paragraph is an afterthought that might be wrong. george's position on janko wagon made me think he was a likely scum candidate. obviously that's now proven wrong.

my point is, if bob were scum, what were his scumbuddies doing? looking at me screaming at janko the entirety of day one, only for that wagon to barely go through? i don't think that's likely. if they were committed to bussing bob, bob would've died. if they were actually trying to save him, i would've gotten more support earlier. i think the game didn't care too much which one of the two wagons got through. hence TvT.

See, this is strong analysis on the wagons NPOM, and explains a likely tvt situation.

You taking wagon analysis at face value from the person that was instrumental in driving the execution of a Town player is baffling to me. Anyway I already think you are somewhat suspect so, it does not matter all that much.

I'm so baffled by people immediately scumreading someone that drove a kill on a townie. Youre aware that town dont know people's alignment outside some type of pr situation. So yeah, town do drive mis-executions, and usually its town driving those misexecutions. It's more often scum that are on for the ride. Because obviously the reasoning was strong enough that other people came along, which means it was genuine and not bullshit.

And Datisi isn't back in this thread brashly pushing for another kill. She's taking the "L". The players that shade people for pushing cases on people that flip town, that always pings me hard. And you've been pushing Bob fairly hard. If bob flips town, by your logic should we be coming for your head tomorrow? And how are we gonna do that when Koba's been pushing hard for Bob too?

This is why this logic is trash and I hate it.

[Billy Pilgrim]

the second paragraph is an afterthought that might be wrong. george's position on janko wagon made me think he was a likely scum candidate. obviously that's now proven wrong.

my point is, if bob were scum, what were his scumbuddies doing? looking at me screaming at janko the entirety of day one, only for that wagon to barely go through? i don't think that's likely. if they were committed to bussing bob, bob would've died. if they were actually trying to save him, i would've gotten more support earlier. i think the game didn't care too much which one of the two wagons got through. hence TvT.

See, this is strong analysis on the wagons NPOM, and explains a likely tvt situation.

You taking wagon analysis at face value from the person that was instrumental in driving the execution of a Town player is baffling to me. Anyway I already think you are somewhat suspect so, it does not matter all that much.

I'm so baffled by people immediately scumreading someone that drove a kill on a townie. Youre aware that town dont know people's alignment outside some type of pr situation. So yeah, town do drive mis-executions, and usually its town driving those misexecutions. It's more often scum that are on for the ride. Because obviously the reasoning was strong enough that other people came along, which means it was genuine and not bullshit.

And Datisi isn't back in this thread brashly pushing for another kill. She's taking the "L". The players that shade people for pushing cases on people that flip town, that always pings me hard. And you've been pushing Bob fairly hard. If bob flips town, by your logic should we be coming for your head tomorrow? And how are we gonna do that when Koba's been pushing hard for Bob too?

This is why this logic is trash and I hate it.

Wait, have I "immediately scumread" Datisi? I SR you for taking analysis from a player that was visibly wrong in a big way at face value. Yeah Town players get things wrong all the time (if Town players got things right all the time then Scum would never win, and that's obviously not the case). If Bob flips Town, you are free to come at me all you want and bash my analysis. I never claimed to be a savant - I am just trying to sort what's happening as best as I can.

So whats your read of her? Because shading me for agreeing with her analysis only makes sense if youre at scum!Datisi. She was wrong on her read of a player. That game state read makes a hell of alot of sense to me. And I'm owning it so you can take me to task for it.

You're right, she was wrong, in a very visible way. So whats my scum motivation for agreeing with that? That only makes sense if I'm partners with bob and trying to protect him right? And in that case, given that I could be easily pushing for a Datisi mis-elim is the team the three of us? What exactly are you getting at if youre not scumreading Datisi here? Because this seems real hedgey except with respect to you finding me to be an easy push? And what is suspect here? You allegedly had interest in joining me on a NPOM push yesterday. Still have interest there or you just back on Bob?

[Billy Pilgrim]

I never said or implied all scum were on janko wagon. I said it was probably scum driven.

Ok its pretty obvious that Datisi drove that wagon. So you think Datisi is scum?

[Billy Pilgrim]

I never said or implied all scum were on janko wagon. I said it was probably scum driven.

I want you to compare this comment to your reading of who was scum. Literally both your pools have all the scum on the bob wagon. Also, what in the world is the motivation for a scum v scum wagon and counterwagon situation?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Billy you have my vote this day. After saturday ill be on vla until the very on of the day. So ill be proxying my vote to you on saturday

And im prety sure your town

I legit hate stuff like this. Like a) it feels very pockety; b) it is literally exempting you from having any read of your own short of this player is town; c) (and I know this is dumb but. . .) It also makes me feel an increased level of responsibility which I hate even more.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I never said or implied all scum were on janko wagon. I said it was probably scum driven.

I want you to compare this comment to your reading of who was scum. Literally both your pools have all the scum on the bob wagon. Also, what in the world is the motivation for a scum v scum wagon and counterwagon situation?

How would I know the motivation. I'm not scum

Ok, honestly, what are you doing in this game. How are you making scum reads? Because you're saying a shit ton of people are scum. Does it really amount to nothing more than these people voted for a townie?

[Billy Pilgrim]

I never said or implied all scum were on janko wagon. I said it was probably scum driven.

I want you to compare this comment to your reading of who was scum. Literally both your pools have all the scum on the bob wagon. Also, what in the world is the motivation for a scum v scum wagon and counterwagon situation?

How would I know the motivation. I'm not scum

Ok, honestly, what are you doing in this game. How are you making scum reads? Because you're saying a shit ton of people are scum. Does it really amount to nothing more than these people voted for a townie?

So to be clear, what I mean by this is, your reads dont make any fucking sense because (by extension) you're saying that Test and Bob were scum v scum counterwagons and then wtf would that mean scum was even doing at that point?

[Billy Pilgrim]

if everyone wasn't on V/LA pretending they don't have crippling internet additions, we'd already be in twilight. Sad.

Bob, you should give your opinions on your PoE pool so we can make associations after you're gone.

dakota, vp bakter, Alduskkel, Andresvmb, powers, jankofan

Hard scum leans on vp baker and and.


rest most likely town.

bob, when you get the time, does this still accurately reflect your feelings on the game?

vp bakter, Alduskkel, Andresvmb, powers,

Thats my poe for today.


im think dkkoba is just opinionated town that is plain and simply wrong

Why just those 4? I guess I'm just not sure why you're down to a 4 person poe pool already.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I literally said I don't think scum was all on janko.

It's a pretty confusing situation in general. Pretty much no reads are hard.

Yeah, you said part one, but then when you were pressed on your scum pool, you named 4 players all of whom were on Janko.

[Billy Pilgrim]

since u seem to be focused on those 2 slots

I'm focused on those slots, but I'm legit having trouble sorting there. I mean as I said a little bit ago, NPOM's play doesn't make any sense. Like from any motivation. Its just lacking any logic. Now, there are scummy elements to it, like the easy redirection to go back to the D1 wagon when it could just easily have been a tvt situation.

Now, let's walk down that path a minute, because youre saying a bob flip here gives info. What exactly? If thats a tvt sotuation how are we better off tomorrow? We know that scum were probably spread, but i don't see who a town!bob flip spews either alignment. And its not like I've locked bob town, but I'm not seeing the scum case here. Him offering me to proxy his vote reads pockety, but I've seen people do this as town.

[Billy Pilgrim]

would be crazy if i said it was something like datisi/npom/aldu

Why those 3? Did aldu even post in here yet?

[Billy Pilgrim]

would be crazy if i said it was something like datisi/npom/aldu

Why those 3? Did aldu even post in here yet?

This gives me "not to towntell but this game started? Lol" vibes since ya know its d2 lmao

I meant today. Aldu couldn't have commented on the NK if they didn't post here yet today.

[Billy Pilgrim]

ok but i can scumread him based on d1 LOL?

Fine, but you made the point that the comments on the nk were forming your read and he hadn't made any yet. See, Koba this is why logic is towny, because otherwise people can just say whatever the fuck they want and it can sound plausible and then I dont have a fucking clue how you find scum.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Bob and test both had major wagons and both were on the janko wagon. What do we make of this?

I was voting Bob from an associative standpoint yesterday but him giving his vote to Billy when he is enemy #1 looks very bad IMHO.

I'm your enemy number 1 though at other times you've said i was town. Bob is townreading me hence why he gave the vote. Again, logic.

[Billy Pilgrim]

since u seem to be focused on those 2 slots

I'm focused on those slots, but I'm legit having trouble sorting there. I mean as I said a little bit ago, NPOM's play doesn't make any sense. Like from any motivation. Its just lacking any logic. Now, there are scummy elements to it, like the easy redirection to go back to the D1 wagon when it could just easily have been a tvt situation.

Now, let's walk down that path a minute, because youre saying a bob flip here gives info. What exactly? If thats a tvt sotuation how are we better off tomorrow? We know that scum were probably spread, but i don't see who a town!bob flip spews either alignment. And its not like I've locked bob town, but I'm not seeing the scum case here. Him offering me to proxy his vote reads pockety, but I've seen people do this as town.

In case it wasn't clear, these were for you Koba. What info does a Bob!town flip give you?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Flipping Bob says a lot about the Billy slot and Baltar slot.

Got it. I englished that bad. My apologies. You were saying that Bob giving his vote to me while he was public enemy number 1 looked bad for me. I get it now.

But let's walk down this path a bit. If he's town it says nothing about my slot obviously, but if he flips red, him doing that makes me look bad how?

[Billy Pilgrim]

can you actually say what that "a lot" is?

If Bob is scum. Billy is scum and Baltar town. If Bob town vice versa.

God i wish I knew how your brain worked. So this seems based (almost entirely - based on your last post) on the belief that scum!bob proxies his vote to his scum partner. And his scum partner that had no votes on him and didn't seem to be a leading suspect for just about anyone. I legitimately don't understand this.

[Billy Pilgrim]

So you're saying the proxy is a town slip? Or a Gambit?

I dont know what the hell it is, bob can answer for himself on that one. But for you to argue that it demonstrates that if he flips red it is determination of my logic doesn't make a lick of sense.

[Billy Pilgrim]

alternatively ill consolidate onto npom but i wanted to push onto bob bc its better info bc of the cross on d1.
VOTE: npom
I actually want to pivot here to see how bob plays it out

Hey Koba, remember when you wrote this? This is why I asked about the post flip question. Because you claimed his push was better info. So what info do you get from his respective flips?

[Billy Pilgrim]

So you're saying the proxy is a town slip? Or a Gambit?

I dont know what the hell it is, bob can answer for himself on that one. But for you to argue that it demonstrates that if he flips red it is

determinative of my alignment

doesn't make a lick of sense.

Ebwop. Typing is hard sometimes.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Bob says this is his "town game". Proxying when under pressure seems pretty anti town

Look, i don't disagree with you on that. In fact I literally said as much like 2 pages ago. So I don't know where you're going with this.

[Billy Pilgrim]

datisi - pr

baltar - pr

bob - locktown

andres -prob town

me - town

that leaves a 50/50 pool

How did this locktown bob?

[Billy Pilgrim]

ok, so i claim loyal fucking neighborizer that failed to neighborize

you're telling me scum claims PT cop there?

first of all, i knew you were fake claiming the moment you posted it
second, i don't see why not?

Only scenario where this makes sense is if scum had a voyeur parked on Baltar since he was doing the kill to see what roles targeted him and saw that tracker was the result. Now of course thats a possibility, and my paranoid brain is triggered a bit by how he responded to Datisi's original claim. Like, "maybe you were rolestopped or something." But thats probably paranoid because it clearly didn't go through since he wasn't in a neighborhood. Also, immediately jumping to claiming his N1 action makes it feel like he may have known a tracker result was coming. But again, given that Dats was demanding a claim it may have been in response to that.

I'm a bit confused about the exact claim though. Pt cop. I mean thats a weird role without any claimed neighborhoods (not asking for claims, just a potential balance issue that may say something about whether this is real.)

[Billy Pilgrim]

I'm a bit confused about the exact claim though. Pt cop. I mean thats a weird role without any claimed neighborhoods (not asking for claims, just a potential balance issue that may say something about whether this is real.)

So you're suggesting we also have neighbors or masons claim?
Idk about that man.
------
I'm flat out assuming from the start that given my role, there have to be neighbors. Datisi's claim actually made sense to me, so it's actually kind of lol that he is a tracker. I feel less annoyed now and I can understand why Dats claimed. Not happy that I'm going to be NK and not be useful (doc me!), but that's the way the cookie crumbles.

I'm very interested in the folks trying to shade my claim or even toe around the edge that I make sense as an elimination today.

I'm not suggesting they claim, I'm just saying that without them being present in game, I'd be surprised by that role. Id be a bit more inclined to believe a claim from those roles and to me it would help resolve your claim, but that said im not suggesting that anyone claim.

I'm not toeing around the edge. Im literally saying its my paranoia brain suggesting that maybe scum had a voyeur that was on you making the night kill and knew that you were tracked but not neighborized.

[Billy Pilgrim]

If VP flips scum then Datisi is probably scum.

i sometimes really struggle in figuring out how your thought process works.

Because you are defending VP. More likely that happens if you are his scum partner than town.

Did you forget the part where Dats claimed a guilty? Have you ever played scum before? Because I dont understand how you're making reads.

[Billy Pilgrim]

unvote

Looks like scum theater to me.

God i want the slot gone. Like I know the right play is to sort through Bob, but this slot is gonna drive me crazy like all game.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Let's not be OMGUSy or anything.

Dude, wtf. You weren't voting for Dats. You voted for hellbooks. Wtf do you even mean?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Let's not be OMGUSy or anything.

Dude, wtf. You weren't voting for Dats. You voted for hellbooks. Wtf do you even mean?

I've found by stopping trying to make logical sense of anything he says and only focus on PoE with NPOM, my quality of life has significantly improved.

I can see this, but honestly people this volatile scare the shit out of me. They can end up killing off my good townreads for little to no reason.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I didn't trust VP day 1 after the initial snow wagon

WHO DO YOU THINK REPLACED SNOW AND WHO ARE YOU VOTING FOR.


I literally cannot even.

See this is what I mean.

[Billy Pilgrim]

do yall rly think npom is playing informed rn lol

What if theyre traitor? Legit serious question. They sure as hell ain't playing townie.

[Billy Pilgrim]

yoinked that pagetop.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Only scenario where this makes sense is if scum had a voyeur parked on Baltar since he was doing the kill to see what roles targeted him and saw that tracker was the result. Now of course thats a possibility, and my paranoid brain is triggered a bit by how he responded to Datisi's original claim. Like, "maybe you were rolestopped or something." But thats probably paranoid because it clearly didn't go through since he wasn't in a neighborhood. Also, immediately jumping to claiming his N1 action makes it feel like he may have known a tracker result was coming. But again, given that Dats was demanding a claim it may have been in response to that.

I actually think his behaviour when confronted by Datisi is alright, it's basically the way someone would normally react when a false guilty is claimed on them and they think the person doing that isn't scum. Sure, Voyeur can be possible and maybe he could act that way as scum via instinct. I wouldn't read too much into that reaction.

The only really major trust issue for me here is that he claimed his result on GB in a wrong way, this is for me a huge red flag and I am legit confused no one cares about it. I mean he can't get no result, because he wasn't blocked, we know that due to Datisi. GB wasn't ascetic or also can't have been rolestopped, otherwise the kill wouldn't have gone through unless there is a Strongman, but that's where it is starting to get ridiculous.

Is it just how you play it out here with procrastinating on such flaws and I am just too harsh on it? Because from where I am from, we were... "less nice" with such claims and I think I am pretty moderate here.

Honestly I don't think I've ever been a pr and investigated a person that died. You pressing on this does make me a bit more confident in you being town though. Does anyone know. Would you get a result if your target died? I mean it would kinda kill the town value of a watcher if you didn't so is that the limitation.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Fine.

I'm a PT cop. I investigated George Bailey last night. Got no result because he died. Was trying to root out the scum who was sitting in the background.

@Dats, this is what he said when you asked him to claim.

[Billy Pilgrim]

(if that counts as a vote im sorry but i purposefully put his name outside vote tags )

Like, given this rule, you weren't worried about it counting?

Voting - Votes must be in bold in the format VOTE: Raya36 or Vote: Raya36. Strong preference for using vote tags instead of bold tags. Unvotes are nice but not required. If I think it’s a vote, it’s a vote, no tricks. Type VOTE: Raya36 to vote and UNVOTE: Raya36

I mean was it really worth the risk?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Look if bob gets flipped I think that helps given that it would show the two wagons on D1. That said, NPOM is my leading preference because i can't townread that slot.

[Billy Pilgrim]

i asked for a bit more time. why are you so impatient?

I want an answer to your question to Baltar.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Bob why am I town?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Bob why am I town?

I have tendency to town read players that form town read / bring in details from past games to defend players. I find scum tends not to do that as it gives them no real leverage for themselves and really only gains one player to be favourable to them.

Added to the fact the pings i got gave me echoes of the last game i was town/town with you. Plus your reaction to the prospect of getting two votes.


The fact you actually tried to interact with me based on luvs game left me with the feeling you were genuinely trying to solve my slot. Now such a read takes less priority to reads formed as the game matures. ( say 10-20 real games days in) But leaves me confident your town baring any really as the game progresses.


its somethign that gives you 0 leverage on any player except the one that has a high chance of being executed that day. Little to gain and always potential to scupper the mislynch for good.

I'm not gonna lie, my tr on you was pretty weak (it was mostly based on the fact that I generally think a flash wagon is unlikely to hit scum and this one seemed based on little to nothing), and my in thread reasoning was really weak. So this pings me quite a bit.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Intents been given and Im uneasy with your reasoning on the townread and i think there is some interesting information from your flip wrt wagon analysis. So if for some reason Koba falls through, I'd be comfortable flipping you too since again I'm not getting NPOM. I swear people if NPOM flips scum at some point I'm going to lose my fucking mind.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I really wanted to hear an answer from Baltar. Bob can you tell us the flip so we don't have to wait for it?