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[Snowblaze]

VOTE: GeorgeBailey because how dare you steal my pagetop!

[Snowblaze]

snowblaze have we met before?

No, I don’t think so.

[Snowblaze]

Also I’m a slow typer when I’m on mobile and barely awake.

[Snowblaze]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Icon

NPOM seems like he's pretty inexperienced. No way scum comes out and actually goes SRS MODE in RVS. The real goof here is Icon trying to make that seem scummy.

(In fact, NPOM was a pretty easy misyeet D1 in a recent game I played. He was similarly overeager to scum hunt, and the scum team just sat back and let that be a fail. Only took slight prodding to make it an all town wagon. NPOM was town vig that game.)

...wait, hang on. You're saying that he was miseliminated by an all-town wagon, with scum just sitting back and letting it happen, in a previous game.

And you also think Iconeum is scum for scumreading him, when you've just established that town have scumread him previously.

Am I missing something here, or does that not make much sense? Why do you think Iconeum's scumread on NPOM is scum-motivated?

[Snowblaze]

I am getting negative vibes out of Snowblaze. They were attacking VP Baltar's logic on #105 and I simply do not agree at all. Nothing wrong with disagreeing of course, but it seemed like a lot of shade in an attempt at defend Iconeum, and against a player that just seems Town to me.

That’s... not what I was doing? I was just pointing out something that didn’t make sense?

[Snowblaze]

@Andre, can you explain your thoughts on Testarossa in more detail? 168 just feels like you’re saying “I would call her town except I disagree with her reads so I can’t”.

[Snowblaze]

@NPOM, can you explain your hellbooks townlean? I'm not really getting any read from her posts so far.

[Snowblaze]

@hellbooks: what’s your current read on me? You’ve mentioned not finding my earlier post towny and my doing something scum are likely to do - does this imply you think I’m scum?

[Snowblaze]

Oh, yay, being wagoned again. What fun.

UNVOTE: , since I probably shouldn’t leave a stale RVS vote lying around.

Anyway, yeah, I haven’t stated any reads, but that’s more just me being my usual non-commital and cautious early game self than anything suspicious. I guess I can probably produce some now if I must.

Townleans: Testarossa, Datisi, Iconeum, Billy Pilgrim

Null: Alduskkel, DkKoba, GeorgeBailey, jankofan, NoPowerOverMe, hellbooks

Maybe suspicious?: Andresvmb, VP Baltar

(In no particular order within categories)

(Don’t hold me to any of those, they’re all pretty weak reads. But that’s what I have so far.)

[Snowblaze]

VOTE: SnowBlaze

If you must vote for me, please spell my name correctly and with proper capitalisation.

[Snowblaze]

I’m liking hellbooks and GB’s push on Snowblaze, so VOTE: Snowblaze. There’s not a whole lot of posts from hellbooks, but certainly a lot I can agree on. And Snowblaze’s ISO strikes me for sure as a lot of busy work, some empty questions, and no stances or reads. GB highlighted the relevant post from hellbooks in 307.

What does whether you agree with hellbooks’ posts have to do with your read on me?

And how is hellbooks pushing me? She isn’t voting for me, and only stated a scumread after I specifically asked her what her read was.

[Snowblaze]

Also, I am really not getting these townreads on hellbooks. Can someone explain, please?

Pedit: that is a true statement.

[Snowblaze]

VOTE: snowblaze

pedit: thank you ico <3 what do you think of this one

Yippee.

So why do you think I might be scum?

[Snowblaze]

Pagetop is mine!

[Snowblaze]

there's 2 players in the game right now who are putting down reads without the want or need to explain them and I don't like it

Am I one of them? If so, it’s early day one and I’m still going mainly on vague instinctive stuff so *insert disclaimer here* but I’ll see what I can do.

Testarossa: I like the way she’s looking into a lot of different things rather than focusing on one specific player, and the focus away from NPOM and Iconeum is +town, imo.

Datisi: I feel like she’s genuinely trying to solve the game. I agree with a lot of her thoughts wrt Andre, and her scumread of me is understandable, if wrong.

Iconeum: I... don’t get why it’s being scumread? Reads make sense, I can see where it’s coming from.

Billy: this is probably the least confident of my townleans, but I vaguely like what he’s been doing so far. I think he’s trying to solve.

VP: nope, still don’t get the logic of why he’s scumreading Iconeum.

Andre: using a lot of words to produce not very many coherent stances, opportunistically hopping onto my wagon.

@Datisi, I’ve been wagoned day one (as town) in a couple of games, I didn’t like the experience, so I’m being sarcastic about it starting to happen again.

And I’m still trying to figure things out, I don’t like committing to reads early on day one (mainly because I end up confbiasing when I do that).

[Snowblaze]

Speaking of snowblaze, they're another person I'd put in the "to yeet" pile with Billy Pilgrim for literally doing nothing so far to push the game forward. Particularly don't care for snowblaze's reaction to getting a few minor votes. Seemed quite exasperated to some mild pressure.

(snip)

Anyhow, right now we should yeet Billy or Snowblaze. Both are useless and high likelihood to be the scum who juuuuuust doesn't quite get the game state. They're both out of sync and trying to fit in like the 40 year old in a too-tight T-shirt at a singles mixer.

I don’t like this post, but I don’t even know if it’s AI at all. I just completely disagree on principle. (May or may not be because it’s me you’re talking about.)

The exasperation is because, as I mentioned earlier, I’ve been wagoned day one as town quite a bit recently and I don’t want it to happen again.

“doing nothing to push the game forward” - that’s kind of hard to do without scumreads a lot stronger than day-one-me ever gets unless I’m confbiasing.

“Useless”... no. Just no. That’s... really not true. I’m just approaching the game in a different way.

And even if I was “useless”, I don’t even see how that makes me scum as opposed to useless town.

[Snowblaze]

In slightly more cheerful news, adding NPOM to my townleans. The repeated unvoting and backing off feels genuine, and I don’t think scum are as likely to do that when the wagons in question are still viable.

[Snowblaze]

I still think ur town.

In the (hopefully unlikely) event that you’re scum trying to pocket me, it’s working.

Maybe if I VOTE: hellbooks it’ll give the people townreading her some motivation to explain it, because all I can see in her ISO is shading several different players, including the ones she’s townreading.

[Snowblaze]

How is anyone seeing this as town?

1) complains about getting wagoned when never facing any actual pressure
2) says she can't scumhunt rn because it's D1
3) THEN says she's definitely not being useless, despite just saying she's not pushing the game forward.
4) then says "jk if I am useless, it's not AI"

UNVOTE:
VOTE: snowblaze

Complaining about being wagoned is NAI. I just hate it as either alignment.

I never said I couldn't scumhunt because it's day one, I said I don't usually have strong scumreads on day one. That doesn't mean I'm not scumhunting.

And, you know, I'm not being useless. I'm engaging with people, I'm giving reads, I'm looking at things that interest me. That is not useless.

I do think that being useless to town is NAI, yes. Scum can make themselves useful, town can not be useful. It depends a lot more on the player than their alignment.

[Snowblaze]

@snowblaze: How do you rate yourself as a scum player and a townplayer?

I'm still fairly inexperienced, so I... don't really know? I'm bad at trying to objectively analyse myself.

As town I've had some decent games, some terrible games, some in between, most that end in me yelling at myself for some reason.

I've had one or two good scum games offsite, and two terrible ones on site, but I haven't rolled scum anywhere in a while so I don't really have a measure of scum!me's current capabilities.

[Snowblaze]

You townread me. Why are you doing that?

[Snowblaze]

I don't think scum are going to have any problem with my being wagoned, but fair enough, I suppose.

[Snowblaze]

This wagon has 1 scum read(VP), 1 null read(GB) and two twon reads(Datisi and Inoceum, but Incoem's vote is based on it's other townreads and not it's specifiically) This looks like a policy wagon to me. If I saw VP and GB as town I might join, but I don't, so I'm not going to.

How is it a policy wagon? I wouldn't say my behaviour has been particularly anti-town.

[Snowblaze]

@Snow, who is scum then?

The person I’m voting for, maybe? VPB? Andre?

Haven’t we just established I don’t have strong scumreads on day one?

[Snowblaze]

I’m actually okay with Iconeum’s vote on me right now, at least from an AI point of view. I actually said that if it was scum it was doing a good job of pocketing me, so I don’t see why it would throw that away to vote me (unless it’s Because WIFOM, but that’s probably not likely.)

[Snowblaze]

I don't think scum are going to have any problem with my being wagoned, but fair enough, I suppose.

Lol what

...because I’m town?

[Snowblaze]

I don’t have any particular objection to this wagon, but at the same time I’m kind of second-guessing myself and wondering how much of my read is unconscious OMGUS. And I’m not sure I want this to turn into a 1v1 like it easily could become if I were to vote there, not when it’s still early and there’s still plenty of players floating under the radar.

[Snowblaze]

Your vote is your power. Don't second guess yourself.

I’ll think about it. I’d rather wait until I see how more players react to my wagon before I switch my vote, if I do decide to do that.

[Snowblaze]

Hmm

VOTE: snow

Explain?

[Snowblaze]

The poor logic is that snow not hunting and being useless = scum.

And also that I’m not hunting and being useless because I don’t have strong scumreads on day one.

[Snowblaze]

Pagetop.

[Snowblaze]

Pagetop.

Definitely useful

Your remark is definitely useful to help people work out my alignment. /s

The poor logic is that snow not hunting and being useless = scum.

And also that I’m not hunting and being useless because I don’t have strong scumreads on day one.

So what is the argument to not yeet you? We should trust you're going to do stuff later?

You keep saying you don't have strong scum reads...well who the hell does D1? You have to take some level of gamble. You're trying to hide behind the lack of info D1 to not actually do anything. That's excuse making and is scummy.

Now is your chance to give some thoughts. If not, then you need to go.

Objectively false.

Let me direct you to 357, 423 and 663. There are my thoughts.

I can elaborate on those and try and improve them tomorrow when I have more time, and I intend to do exactly that.

[Snowblaze]

mind telling me who you're finding to be the town bloccing here?

I think there is a semi-loose group right now of you, me, Ico, GB, hellbrooks with some side folks from Andres, Tess and NPOM.

I don't think everyone in that group is necessarily town, nor do I think everyone in that group finds each other fully town. But I do think people in that group have enough town reads on them variously from people in that group that yeeting them today is a dwindling possibility.

That puts scum in a tricky spot, particularly if their members are concentrated outside that group.

NPOM is in the outskirts of your townblock. Yet your original post about said townblock was under the assumption he was scum defending his partner me, pretty clearly implying he wasn't in your townblock. That doesn't make sense.

And "loose group of people not even solidly townreading each other" pretty clearly does not equal "impenetrable phalanx".

(Also, will you

please

explain why you're townreading hellbooks?)

[Snowblaze]

Fine, I'm a VT. (You could at least announce the E-1).

Do not hammer until I've had time to give my thoughts tomorrow

.

(Preferably don't hammer at all, but...)

[Snowblaze]

rly torn on what to think about that statement

Which statement?

[Snowblaze]

This is one of the sketchiest wagons I've seen to date.

Probably slightly biased, but I completely agree.

pedit: what’s scummy about that statement, hellbooks? Also I really want NPOM to be town, I don’t want the only person actually defending me to be scum. (Yes, I am aware this is bad logic.)

[Snowblaze]

Although I do actually townlean him independently of his defence of me, so I’m not going to be paranoid here.

[Snowblaze]

On the other hand, there’s nothing like being wagoned for bad reasons to get strong scumreads!

[Snowblaze]

On the other hand, there’s nothing like being wagoned for bad reasons to get strong scumreads!

Great, now even my grammar is turning into an incoherent mess. The meaning should be clear, though.

Pedit: another pagetop!

[Snowblaze]

also thinking atm that NPOM has higher scum equity if snowblaze is town actually

Why are you voting for me, rather than him? Have you changed your mind about his being my partner if I’m scum?

Pedit: again, why are you voting for me? And why didn’t you say “I townread this statement” rather than “I can’t work out what to make of this statement”?

(I need to step away for a bit, I’m getting far too stressed here. See you all tomorrow. Assuming I haven’t been hammered.)

Pedit 2: what. (Also I have claimed.)

[Snowblaze]

VT.

[Snowblaze]

VOTE: VP Baltar. I am done giving you the benefit of the doubt when you’re calling for a hammer when we’re halfway through the day and two people on my wagon are townreading me (maybe? I have no clue what DkKoba is doing).

[Snowblaze]

Good news: I’m no longer the largest wagon. Bad news: I’m townleaning the replacement largest wagon.

(Should probably prioritise that ISO.)

I’m probably just irrationally tunnelling VPB but I do actually still think he’s been pretty scummy in trying to get me killed. And is anyone ever going to tell me why hellbooks is town?

Still fence-sitting, Andre? I thought you were scumreading me.

It can’t just be as easy as VPB/hellbooks/Andre, can it? (Probably not, but I can hope...)

Can someone explain why NPOM’s defence of town!me is scummy? I was agreeing with a lot of his points, but that might just be the emotional reaction to being wagoned rather than actual logical reads.

[Snowblaze]

Yup, not particularly scumreading Testarossa. Still a slight townlean. I think she’ll probably get easier to read as the game goes on.

I feel like I could very easily end up deathtunneling VPB, so I’m probably just going to ignore him and leave my vote there for a while until I feel like I can read him with less bias.

@Andre, why do you prefer Testarossa to me? You were townleaning her at the last mention before your switch in 252 and prepared to vote for me in 322. Can you explain what changed between those posts and your vote for her?

[Snowblaze]

Let's counterwagon.

VOTE: Andresvmb.

[Snowblaze]

Let's counterwagon.

VOTE: Andresvmb.

why do you townread testa?

Instinct, mostly. Hard to pin down anything specific, I just don’t think she’s going to flip scum. (Not very helpful, I know. Sorry!) (Also probably sympathy since I was just flashwagoned to E-1 myself.)

But I’m voting Andre more because I scumread him than because I townread Testarossa.

[Snowblaze]

so u read thru their iso and think their posts are town? Can you point out what posts/ group of posts make u instinctively think they are town?

I can try...

113 is the kind of read I think scum would struggle to fake.

I like the logic in 310.

I think the thought processes in 858, and I like that she's still townreading NPOM despite that (I know your theory is they're scum partners, so that wouldn't hold as much weight in that instance.)

[Snowblaze]

At least I think his willingness to win people over for Billy or Snow might have been more town motivated here as they aren't really interesting miselims for scum.

I know I said I was going to ignore VPB, but I have to point out that someone flashwagoned to E-1 is probably an interesting miselimination for scum.

[Snowblaze]

is mafiascum your first foray into mafia games? just asking a genuine question so i can better judge your reads

I played a few games on another forum before I started here, but that's a lot less Serious Business than here. So for all intents and purposes, yes.

[Snowblaze]

I really should go through my reads and try and get somewhere with my large null pile.

DkKoba is ??? - my gut says they’re town but I don’t know why and I’m town on more or less all of their scumreads, so I’m just going to set them aside for now and try and get a solid read when we have more information to go on.

Alduskkel remains solidly null, no matter how many times I read his ISO.

GeorgeBailey is the weakest of townleans.

jankofan is a scumlean, but not a confident one. Although that E-1 definitely needs better explanation.

Billy Pilgrim remains a weak townlean.

All of these feel like I’m having to force myself to get reads that aren’t just “null”, which probably means those reads are thoroughly unreliable.

[Snowblaze]

Literally everyone still on the snowblaze wagon is pretty solid town reads from most people in the game. A magical testarossa counter wagon emerges from nowhere to stop this elim?

Naw, dawg.

I need to spend some time today to closely dissect what happened, but now I'm more confident in testarossa town. Snowblaze is scum.

Why. Is. Hellbooks. Town.

I’ve been asking this for days and no-one is telling me.

[Snowblaze]

I’ve read through hellbooks’ ISO several times and I’m still not seeing it. There’s a not unrealistic possibility that I’m confbiasing, though.

[Snowblaze]

@snow, you said she was shading people she was townreading, yeah? what posts gave you that impression? and are you usually prone to tunnelling?

More “everyone” than just her townreads, but here’s where she shades Iconeum:

242 - “I was townreading Iconeum but this looks scummy and I’ll consider voting for him”

612 - “you’re townreading people for flimsy reasons, but I still townread you” (while we’re in that post there’s “oh no, Datisi is townreading GB for making good posts, that’s a Bad Thing!”)

I vaguely felt she was shading me in 110 and 242, which was why I asked her to commit to a read on me.

There are a few other things that gave me that impression, but I’m not going to pick out every single one.

As for tunnelling: I’ve done it a couple of times and now make a conscious effort not to do it again, but when I’m in a position like this where I’m being strongly scumread/wagoned and feeling kind of isolated it gets harder, and this is the first game where my scumreads are that much more emotionally driven that I just know if I let myself I would end up in a tunnel so deep I’d probably never escape it. So I’m deliberately not focusing on my scumreads right now until I can get myself into a position where I can actually analyse objectively.

[Snowblaze]

I don’t have any particular objection to this wagon, but at the same time I’m kind of second-guessing myself and wondering how much of my read is unconscious OMGUS. And I’m not sure I want this to turn into a 1v1 like it easily could become if I were to vote there, not when it’s still early and there’s still plenty of players floating under the radar.

What wagon are you talking about? Because you're the lead wagon and if you don't have an objection to a wagon on yourself. . .

I meant the VP Baltar wagon NPOM was trying to start, and yes, I am aware that one vote doesn’t really make a wagon.

[Snowblaze]

Translation: "I know tess will flip town, so I'm going to find a spot to park my vote that won't draw suspicion D2"

Accurate translation: “I think Testarossa is town, let’s start a wagon on someone who’s more likely to be scum”.

Speaking of Andre, why is he not one of the worst votes on the Testarossa wagon?

[Snowblaze]

@Billy: You're aligning yourself with the wrong side.

Don’t like this. This kind of binary narrative is very pro-scum (If VPB is town, it’s begging for a TvT tunnel) and it’s making me kind of paranoid you’re trying to pocket me.

[Snowblaze]

Sorry about this. IRL stuff happened. This has nothing to do with the events of the game or with my alignment.

Town: Datisi, Iconeum, Testarossa, NPOM, DkKoba (?)
Null: Billy Pilgrim, GeorgeBailey, Alduskkel
Scum: VP Baltar, hellbooks, Andresvmb, jankofan

Reasons should be pretty clear in my ISO.

Have fun, and eliminate scum (not my slot!)