Newbie 2023 - Hedgehogs - Day 3

[shellyc]

Hey, hi, hello! Salutations everyone! Some interesting takes happening in this thread.

A little bit about myself: I'm Shelly, and have had one scum game (Newbie 2019) which was also my first game on the site. I crushed town after my partner got limmed d1. I also have mafia experience IRL and in chat mafia.

Also rest in peace tracker... But we know now the setup is either tracker + jailkeeper / tracker + TFN / tracker + doc

Work has been fairly busy and I'll do a comprehensive review of the thread after lunch.

[shellyc]

Bell, so I came in and you randomly voted me... for what reason? Just curious, y'know. Don't mind the vote. My townieness will shine through.

[shellyc]

I believe it is quite a random vote; there is no explanation or reasoning about it.

[shellyc]

A question for ya: If you were to summarise the game in a few sentences, how would you do it? My head already hurts from reading the 30 pages of texts.

If we miseliminate today, tomorrow would be LimLo, am I correct?

[shellyc]

So they claimed tracker? Might be a random bait, I dunno. I have no control over whatever my previous slot did.

I'm a townie and I will flip green though. I am a newbie and still getting used to all the lingo and stuff, but I can bring that pure town energy to the game.

[shellyc]

After reading the posts near it, I feel like the NS wagon randomly appeared. It just felt unnatural to me. I am inclined to think there's a scum on the wagon.

Why does out of game reasons affect reads? Metagame reasons? I don't know how metareads are relevant...

I believe lurking is definitely anti town. I like people voicing their thoughts. Bella scumread walter, this is a huge red flag to me imo.

[shellyc]

They could have bread crumbed tracker yeah. Or it might just have been a post. Depends what you flip.

Why does whatever my previous slot owner did relate to me though. Pressure's on. You can flip me if you want, but that's a guaranteed miseliminate.

[shellyc]

I don't follow, do you consider yourself accurate at finding Mafia?

I was an ok player at chat mafia - I had decent reads and was often very aggressive in pushing them. I was a better scum player than a town player.

[shellyc]

Do you plan to reread the game or is the summary enough for you?

I am heading for lunch soon. After that, I have time to read the game. I will post my reads on all the players and I will list my prefered lynchpool / focusing targets for today.

[shellyc]

Hi. So you read the SEs / people on the wagon as scum? I think the NS push on Bella is fine, I don't think Bella's ISO looks that good.

I am still reading the game. My inclined TRs are Bell and NS.

[shellyc]

Initial Impressions (I am not a scumhunting god; will revisit this)

Andresvmb - This slot is really scummy to me. They were the other wagon yesterday and IV was town. They were on the IV wagon. Their ISO doesn't look good at all.

Nash - Lurker. On IV wagon. This is a null leaning scum read - I really want 'em to talk more.

Bell - I am leaning town on this slot. They are open, flexible, engaging, and spontaneous. I liked that initial interaction with me. However, they were on the IV wagon...

Bellaphant - Were on the IV wagon, and voted late. I don't really have an idea on this slot. Null read, maybe a teensy scumlean

The Bulge - I am null on this lad. Been a little bit lurking, also under the radar for most of the game. I want a closer look, but I think they are leaning town.

notscience - They read me as newbtown. I see they are a competent player who has been protown, but I believe they might be able to fake it... Still, a townread.

[shellyc]

She also didn’t trip my super secret scumtell for newbies. So that’s a point in her favor

What is your secret scumtell by the way? This post makes me curious

[shellyc]

If mafia have a roleblocker there's a 2/3 chance that there's a tracker in the game.

To correct you, only one setup has Tracker in column A.

[shellyc]

NS - Bella have this conflict. As I do not strongly townread any of them, I am wary of this interaction. This could well be scum theatre.

[shellyc]

NS was on the wagon himself. NS, why are you using logic that scumreads yourself? That's weird

[shellyc]

Bulge?

Why do you ask Bulge, and not anyone else?

[shellyc]

A lot of posts have been made since I was asleep

I've done a quick skim. Andres, I think Bulge is pushing you because yesterday you were the other leading wagon. IV flipped town, and you have a high chance of being scum.

Nash has been lurking, and parking your vote on a lurking person isn't getting any info, but I suppose I could go with this compromise eliminate if there aren't any options.

I don't know how much NKA is relevant in scumhunting. I don't think the night kill actually gives us THAT much info (just my opinion)

[shellyc]

NKs are pretty relevant because mafia always have a reason for who they kill. I have no idea how to properly interpret an NK though.

Me neither. I guess scum wouldn't kill someone that has been townreading / helping them. I see how that might be relevant. Let me read the wiki for how to do that.

[shellyc]

Shelly, how do you feel about getting bussed as mafia?

What does this refer to? Why this question... all of a sudden? Trying to bait a scumslip? (which will never happen, 'cause I'm a townie)

In general I am fine with being bussed. I avoid bussing though - scum are the informed minority and my partners would usually come off as more town than I think.

[shellyc]

In your scum game before did you draw scum with an experienced player, shelly

Yes. They got replaced out after 10 or so posts. The replacement got limmed. I had to deal with a 1v7.
It was Newbie 2019 if you want to metadive.

[shellyc]

I was basing this on my chat mafia experiences. I was defensive with MiccWord because I had no idea what to do in my first forum game.

[shellyc]

I am a fairly experienced chat mafia player. I don't know why you would judge me on my "SE-like" answer.

[shellyc]

My thought process was that there’s someone coaching you this game who used that exact phrasing.

I was experienced at chat mafia, and spent a lot of time reading the wiki about forum play. Nobody has "coached" me to answer like that, I can assure you.

[shellyc]

VOTE: Bellaphant

Are you going to vote without any explanation? I would wait for a roleclaim. They are at E-1 right now.

[shellyc]

Nash has been lurking and there is no good reason to townread 'em.
For my slot, I know that tracker claim makes me look bad, so townreading Our does look illogical to me.

[shellyc]

The latter, she wouldn’t have known at the time, but it is a weird read since he spent most of the game telling stories.

Looking at Our's ISO, I find them hard to read. I feel it strange they could consolidate their strange behaviour into a town read.

[shellyc]

Hi everyone! Some posts have been made since I was asleep. Bella went vla and there isn't a roleclaim to be had.

I can continuedly see Bell's town mindset. I don't know how I feel about Andres - he is null leaning scum for me now. I think Andres / Bulge interaction is interesting and I'll have a closer look at the Andre wagon later.

[shellyc]

I also think it’s interesting how hard The Bulge is TR Bellaphant in 811.

I find that odd as well. I don't know why Bella would be TR here; they are my biggest scumread. Consider this a pseudo-vote on them. I will wait for a roleclaim though.

[shellyc]

The idea that I am likely to be Scum because I was the alternative wagon D1 is flawed. I put a vote on IV late that day but not super close to deadline, after which IV became very active, posting a lot of content, and making themselves more likely to be read as Town by someone that was reading carefully. However, my vote was simply sitting there since I wasn’t around, and Walter clearly signaled a preference to vote for IV over me. Those two things alone probably meant that IV was the preferred Scum wagon (more obvious Town), while leaving me alive for a mis-execute D2.

I am not a logically inclined person - I prefer to make reads off behaviourally. However, I do see correctness in your logic that scum left you alive for today's miselim.

[shellyc]

It is not difficult for to fake town energy. It's called enthusiasm and not everyone has enthusiasm for both roles but given Shelly says she's better as scum than town I would think her being enthusiastic would be a null or even a scummy tell for her.

So me seeming town - is a scumread? Not making logical sense here. I seek clarification on "fake town energy".

My read on Andres continuedly is null. If Bella is red Andres would be up in the town category as they were the scum-push target

[shellyc]

My read on Bulge is continuedly null, a bit leaning scum imo. Being defensive and not inclining strongly either way is a scumtell to me. However they weren't on that IV wagon... I need a rethink on this slot. They are competent and I am sure this is within Bulge's scumrange.

[shellyc]

My lynchpool today is Bella/Bulge/Andres. Bell has a townie mindset to me. I am leaning NS town - they are being protown and actively scumhunting. I hope the Nash replacement gives me a better insight on the slot.

[shellyc]

A lot of players prefer playing as mafia or town, but not both equally. Often times you see a distinct difference in the frequency of posts depending on which alignment they are that correlates with whichever alignment they prefer.

I'm saying that you having townie energy is just another way of saying "This person seems enthusiastic, most people are right handed (prefer being town) so ShellyC must be right handed as well." But since you said you are a better scum player I would associate that with a preference to play as mafia. So your enthusiasm is a null or scum tell.

Do you like playing town or mafia more?

I like playing mafia more. I like being the informed minority.
Yes, I am enthusiastic about this game... which doesn't mean I am scum because I like being scum. I am enthusiastic about this game because I'm excited to jump into my second game of forum mafia as a townie.

[shellyc]

Changed my mind on Shelly, probably town.

Didn't you put me as null? What makes you change my mind on me?

[shellyc]

I am waiting for Nash's replacement to see what they do.

Me too. I can't read Nash here - they are lurking and that's making them unreadable.

[shellyc]

Well, which parts of his posting were townie? IMO he's wuite unreadable

[shellyc]

*quite unreadable.

Also I feel the scumteam appears within Andres/Bella/Bulge/Nash. You and NS are my pretty solid townreads. All depends if Nash's replacement displays town-ness.

[shellyc]

-VT's would either be disinterested and bored, and participate very little, or push other players hard since they have less to lose if targeted.
-Mafia would participate in the discussion somewhat, or be rather active at least a little bit; maybe not leading entirely since that would be suspicious if they stayed alive that long. I don't think they would lurk or post a lot; they'd probably wanna meet somewhere in the middle.
-Townies with night actions / special abilities, if I were one, would probably lurk pretty hard to avoid attention and not get targeted by the mafia.

Your description of mafia / VT / PR is pretty much on spot. I feel like it's copied from the wiki or something.

[shellyc]

Writing out a criteria to follow when reading players because you're, without a criteria, lost because you're scum.

Can you explain this Bell? I don't really understand the problem with writing a criteria. Could you phrase it better or something?

[shellyc]

Imagine you're mafia.
How do you hunt for scum when you know who the scum are?
By making a list of things you'd find scummy and then applying it to the playerlist. This way you can fake a perspective of scum hunting.

Well, town can do that too. I use a lot of scumtells from the wiki. But i do agree that this way of scumhunting is easily faked.

[shellyc]

Yes, but do you tell everyone what your scum tells are before you start scum hunting?

I do not. I see what point you are making.

[shellyc]

Bulge I miss you what do you think of the replacement

Is this...

POCKETING

? NS, why do you keep directing questions at Bulge? I notice Bulge often does the same thing. NS and Bulge can you express a read of each other?

[shellyc]

Somewhat seriously, I do actually think Joy is scum for the reasons I posted. Wanted to see what would fall out if I pressured him too ofc and kind of felt like I was jumping the gun by looking at four posts and declaring him scum, but it looks like scum to me.

The Andre Joy interaction is weird for PR hunting reasons, I feel there's better stuff to talk about or look into than that so I don't know why Andre is going there instead.

IMO I have a null leaning scum read on him for now - didn't especially like fishing for PRs.

[shellyc]

I feel scum here might be Bella / Joy or Bella / Andres. Lynchpool today is Bella / Andres / Joy. Maybe Bulge would make it in. Joy's opening wasn't great to me. But partnership analysis only comes after we flip one scum.

[shellyc]

That being said his first post did come close to tripping my newbie scumtell. so hm.

Can I know what your newb scumtell is? You've used it on me. (and I passed)

[shellyc]

Sorry that I haven't been posting a lot - kinda busy recently. I will look at that interaction (Andres-NS) above.

[shellyc]

What I’m trying to say is that I think it should seem more likely to you that my interaction with Bella is either TvT or SvT. I find it odd that you would conclude it’s more often than not SvS, and that we’re trying to distance by voting each other D2. Since I was the alternative wagon D1, I probably don’t immediately turn around and SR my Partner and vote there. I would argue that would be an odd strategic choice.

Why are you sure that turning around and SRing your partner is TvT / TvS? Because

I did that exact thing in my scumgame.

IMO it's NAI at best and I don't know why you two cannot be both scum.

[shellyc]

As in, do you see much of an incentive from my slot to generate a potential association with my Partner when I’m the one under more pressure?

Well, distancing from your partner when you are under the scrutiny of many players would certainly be a good way for your partner to receive easy towncred.

[shellyc]

@shellyc in both of your solves you have Bella as Scum. Any reason you haven’t put a vote down yet?

I prefer being cautious with my voting - just a playstyle thing. Besides, Bella is at E-1. They haven't roleclaimed. I guess I may start the pressure on you soon.

[shellyc]

Besides, the whole post assumes that Bella will flip Scum, which we don’t know yet. If you want to try and throw out associative reads, then let’s get Scum first.

Yes, I realise associative tells only work after we flip one scum. I am assuming they are scum to push the Andres / Bella world. Your defense was more than a little convincing, though.

[shellyc]

I've not read, be here tomorrow, but im still at l-1? And at least one of our ses thinks that a wagon that got to e-1 in a few pages and then stalled is super pro town? Ace.

Am I being asked to claim?

Best to claim at E-1. I think there has been intent to hammer, though I'm not sure about this.

[shellyc]

920 and the surrounding posts from bell are...strange. if I remember right, I was being scum read for having a light town read on our? But then bell comes along and is like ....oh no, actually, a light town read is fine.

I can't get my head around the bell slot at all. A lot of their posting looks like iioa

IMO the Bell slot is pretty town here. They have a townie mindset, and what is iioa? Their posting is open, flexible and spontaneous. They seem open to new suspects and they are my most solid townread here. They changed their read on Our, and I don't see that as AI.

[shellyc]

Well, a lot of posts have been made. wait can you unvote after hammering - i thought you could not.

[shellyc]

Wait oops it isn't a hammer. I just read half of the posts.

[shellyc]

leaning towards shelly being scum but very weak read

Hmmm why do you regard me as scummy? Gut feeling?

I am ok with you scumreading me. In my chat mafia days I would always get scumread as town.

[shellyc]

@Everyone else do you think Bella is scum?

I regard them as a scumread here. I don't think their ISO looks great, they are being defensive, and haven't roleclaimed. Consider this a pseudo-vote on Bella, because I don't want to accidentally hammer this.

[shellyc]

Upon reading again, you actually seem mostly townie, and couldn't remember why I suspected you. Only part I disagree with is lurking as a scumtell; but that is more likely just be a difference in opinon and not indicative of being scum. So now I'm more neutral slightly leaning towards you being town. My scumreads are moreso NS and bella, with my only heavy scum lean being NS, since leading wagons and obvtowning is more of a scumtell to me. Lurkers usually get called out and everyone is aware, so lurkers might be the ones that have no need to prove themselves as town since they know they are town.

IMO Lurkers are more often than not apathetic town. I said lurkers were anti-town, as we cannot read lurkers if they aren't producing any content.

NS is a townread to me - they have towntold more often than not, and seem quite confident in how they will be proven as town. That is a towntell to me.

But I respect your opinion that leading wagons and doing LAMIST might be scummy.

[shellyc]

VOTE: the bulge

What is this silent vote NS? I thought you put them as town-ish earlier if I recall correctly

[shellyc]

Do not hammer Bellephant.
That was a pretty townie post.

Don't get how that's especially townie. It was just a readslist.

[shellyc]

I'm leaning towards this being scum flailing, mainly since she didn't claim. Trying to solve is probably one of the best defenses without actually claiming, but can be faked. Her general defensiveness throughout the game is a scumtell imo

IMO that readslist was NAI. They still have not claimed though, which is a big red flag to me. General defensiveness is also a scumtell to me, but I'm usually fairly defensive when pushed as well.

[shellyc]

Nah that vote is probably wrong. I need to figure out what I want to do this game. I think that if Bella was Town, they would have been probably hammered by now.

What does this mean? Why is a the bulge vote wrong? Care to explain?

[shellyc]

I think shellyc is the only player to be almost firm Town the way everybody is speaking about the slot.

I'm now going to think about this. The way I am townread, I am quite concerned. I am concerned that as a newbie playing town for the first time, I am being pocketed. I am often pocketed and I hope to rectify the pocketers (if any).

Everyone explain your townread on me please (if you have one)...

[shellyc]

But bulge just feels different. Even though I was scum there I would have genuinely townread him but I don’t feel that way here.

Hmmm so the Bulge read is based off gut feeling? Might read the game thread so I can do a bit of meta research myself.

[shellyc]

@Mod: I will be V/LA until Friday

[shellyc]

Even though he's VL/A ...
I remember lookibg through your posts and they seemed genuine enough to be townie; your genuineness in trying to solve and being genuinely unsure about whose maf stood out. But I'm not very confident yet, like I am moreso with Andre and Bell being town.

Bella's post struck me as very townie, but I would be more inclined to belive it if she had posted it before she was 1 vote away till hammer, though she was V/LA for a bit there, so maybe she genuinely only had time to make that post recently. I'd like them to post more and/or claim.

Part of the reason I think Bell and Andres are townie were andres immediately rebuked me when I made the newbie mistake of speculating on the PR's when no one else did, and Bell put pressure on me right away. Since I am so new to this game, and a replacement, I was looking for initial pocketing, as I'd imagine if I were scum pocketing a low-info newbie would be especially effective here; to me andres and Bell did the opposite. Combine that with Bell seeming like they are genuinely trying to solve in my eyes, and Andres seemingly not caring about looking like scum in my eyes too make them my main townreads.

Still leaning towards notscience being scum but their last defense struck me as a genuine townie reaction (like Bell said, that was the only townie post I felt he had made this game) ; though it could have been a smart adaption as scum. I'll be keeping an eye on what they do.

This is a really townie post to me - I can see your effort in reading people and trying to solve the game. PlusJoy, may I ask you who your secondary scumread is (who notscience's partner might be)

[shellyc]

PlusJoy, if you believe bella's post as a townie post, why is your vote still parked on them?

By the way I will not be very active for these few days, but I'll post as much as I can.

[shellyc]

To clarify, you’re saying this is the first time you’ve rolled town on this website?

Yes. this is this first time I've rolled town.

[shellyc]

@joyed, i’m Basically just trusting IV on this one. He literally said if I die and get eliminated still TR NS.
Unless NS and bulge are scum partners that’s another TR from either scum trying to sort themselves out ofNS’s scum pool or an honest read from bulge which once again i’d Have to trust. Though, not a fan of meta trust reads after flipping IV.

This post is very confusing. Are you telling us not to use meta? Are you townreading NS?

[shellyc]

i told her I am town in our pt

Wait you have a PT? Wait... is this a mason claim?

[shellyc]

interested to hear what, if anything, happened between these two posts

Me too. I asked about what happened there, and Andres hasn't replied.

These will probably be my only posts today - will not have internet access.

[shellyc]

I’ll place my vote here while I wait for confirmation on the Claim.

Have access for a bit. Andres, why do I feel like you have voted for a lot of different people or something? Why would you put your vote here.

[shellyc]

hmmm ... that makes 2 votes on me now, with 4 needed to hammer?
I think I'll try this
Assuming a scum casts the final vote (Bella or notscience in my eyes still), with 2 possible night actions a 1 for 1 trade is good here I think
UNVOTE: bellaphant
VOTE: plusJoyed

What are you doing PlusJoy? Unvote if you are town now. Doing this isn't helping our wincon. If you know you are town, wasting an elimination on you doesn't help.

Voting for yourself is anti town - we don't want to mislim here, because tomorrow is probably LimLo. There are 2 scum and 5 town in the game now. When we lim you, it will become 2v3 (assuming the nightkill happens).

[shellyc]

mason claims are designed to be pointless in most setups no, that was a scum claim

What?! Bulge are you claiming scum with Bella? Are you claiming Neighbour? I have no idea what's happened to Bulge here

[shellyc]

IMO I might put Bella back at E-1, still feeling scum on this slot I guess. Where is your claim Bella? Are Bulge / Bella claiming a pair of masons? I'm confused about the whole Bella / Bulge thing, and i don't understand why bulge would TR Bella.

[shellyc]

EBWOP (didn't put the vote): VOTE: Bellaphant E-1. Claim as soon as possible please.

[shellyc]

Probably going to be my only check-in for today I guess. IMO PlusJoy's self vote looks geniunely like a town trying to bait scum. Right now I TR PlusJoy a bit, NS a bit, and Bell a lot.

I am not sure what to make of the bulge slot. They have been hard to read and I have no idea what the mason claim was.

Bella is gone I guess. They could be PR though, since they still haven't claimed. Still scumreading the slot.

Andres is a huge nullread to me, maybe a slight scumlean. Some of their posts look like they might have been posted from a townie mindset, but I'm still having wary thoughts about this slot.

If Bella flips red I think Bella / Bulge scumteam is most likely. #1068 states "Bulge is town"...

[shellyc]

I think both Bellaphant and Andre would be really helpful eliminations for me to get my head around the game better.

How would their elims help from your perspective? would like to hear an explanation

[shellyc]

Andres they didn't claim!? What are you doing! I CLEARLY STATED I PUT THEM AT E-1. Why did you hammer before roleclaim and why did you hammer without saying anything else?

[shellyc]

I'm fairly sure that was hammer. If that turns out to be town PR Andres is almost outed scum here. If that's red, I'm rethinking the reads on Andres and Bulge.

[shellyc]

Whoops. I'm so sorry at messing this up. Genuinely a mistake.

[shellyc]

It's a newbie game.
Messing things up is exactly what you should be doing.

by the way will probably not check in for the next 8 hours or so. I still want to hear about andres' vote of Bella.

[shellyc]

Cool. Andres I am still interested in why you have changed your vote a LOT of times.

[shellyc]

Back in town. We should finalise lynchpool - Bella eliminate would be cool and I'm fine with Andres or the Bulge as well.

[shellyc]

Elim bait unpacking: in melo, it’s significantly easier to counter claim a PR claim as scum.

Why would counterclaiming in MeLo be significantly easier? IMO there's no difference.

[shellyc]

Ooh a lot of posts have been made since I last checked in. Let me make a comprehensive review then I'll respond to everything.

[shellyc]

I would say that Bell/notscience and The Bulge/Bellaphant are the potential Scum Teams. shellyc is always Town. And I don’t know what to make of plusJOYED, probably Town I guess.

I agree that Bell has been sheeping NS - Bell pivoted towards the Bulge when NS suspected them. Bell seems townie to me though. Is NS trying to pocket Bell?

The Bulge has been defending Bella and I'm not sure scum!Bulge would do that when many players have sussed the Bella slot.

[shellyc]

Another very townie post.

Why is 1223 a townie post? It's just stating that they need to be less prone to AtE. Scum can definitely say that

[shellyc]

1221-1224 would signal towards a partnership if NS or Bell flipped red. Hmmmm.

Still want to flip Bella but I'm waiting for the replacement.

Andres claiming VT here gives towncred but Andres has been very inconsistent and paranoia-spreading (idk how to put it) this day. Gives me a weird vibe.

[shellyc]

NS doesn't really have a reason to be moving the wagon like this as scum. it's just not done really. He's backing up his hesitation with action. He's not just saying a thing, he's doing a thing.
He can at maximum, have 1 partner. But the wagon has shifted twice and he started the wagon on bellephant.

He can be partnered with you really. NS / me or NS / PlusJoy looks viable. He might have started the wagon on bella (his partner) then switched once she was in danger of being hammered

I still have a town vibe from NS but im skeptical at how you decide to give people townpasses

[shellyc]

IIoA? You decide to disregard my read on you at 1241... I CANNOT READ BELL. I see the townie mindset, but is this LAMIST from scum?

[shellyc]

I was just speechless because you included yourself in there so I ignored it.
I think you and Andre have enough experience to know that NS/Bell is just really unlikely since this is the first time we’ve played together.

First time playing together doesn't mean you can't be partnered.

I included myself cause it was a possibility from your point of view (but not from mine, as I know I am town).

[shellyc]

LAMIST = working hard to appear town / towntell without a focus on scumhunting. I regard the meaning of LAMIST as this.

[shellyc]

Welcome the worst! I'm going to read the posts you've made since replacing in and respond in one post.

[shellyc]

Sorry, I implied that the way we’re playing together is extremely rare for scum partners if you look at how we’re interacting with each other.

I see. What town tells am I dropping?

Having a townie mindset and thought process, not being afraid to push votes. I still remember you immediately questioned me after I replaced in and you did the same thing with PlusJoy.

[shellyc]

VOTE: PlusJOYED (this is a placeholder vote but also serious)

How is a placeholder vote serious? Contradictory.

[shellyc]

For the record I am withdrawing my andres/plusjoyed team suggestion.

Why are you withdrawing it without much happening after you suggested it?

[shellyc]

Andres, well, seems too scummy to be scum, with the exception of being really agressive like a how I think a VT should be, and not posting as much, even with an ATE like you said. Since he is experienced, if he is scum, then he is acting like scum to get away with being scum, do you think the other newbies would WIFOM like that? I'd think not; most newbies would probably call him out on being scummy and wagon him with newbie majority; that gambit is too risky for anyone but a VT (I also did something similar as a town role) in a newbie game. So therefore, he is probably town.

IMO "too scummy to be scum" is all WIFOM. I don't know why scum can't WIFOM it and play this gambit.

[shellyc]

The worst, do you have any questions for me? I read NS / PlusJoy reading me as town and I'm curious how you think of this.

[shellyc]

We're close to deadline and I don't think I have the weight or energy (or really inclination yet!) here to convince people to vote with me.

But it's definitely a vote on a player I think is mafia.

Didn't you retract Andres / PlusJoy? Contradictory AGAIN.
VOTE: the worst

Pressure's on lad.

[shellyc]

I think a lot happened. I gather that Joyed has been townreading Andres for the bulk of the game. Yet when presented with an opportunity, he backed off on it. When I suggested that his reasoning for townreading Andres might be dubious, he backed off it and (despite me actively trying and failing to discern the reason for his actual read in the first place) his tact changed. Despite allegedly townreading Andres all game, he suddenly seemed to actually quite urgently want to shift his vote to Andres. And yet when I asked for an explanation on the scumread, all I got was posturing around who may/may not be an Andres partner.

I don't think Joyed's read on Andres is real, and I think Joyed was all too happy to shift his vote onto Andres. Partners (particularly newbies) tend to signal that their partner ~could be scum~ or even outright vote each other. But I think it takes a pretty uncommon scum mindset to actually defiantly shift your vote against the flow of your reads in order to E-1 your partner despite having townread them all day and then fail to explain why you're changing your mind and scumreading them.

There's just a lot about my exchange with Joyed which didn't feel like I was engaging with town, but also didn't feel like I was engaging with someone who was scum with the person they were townreading.

pedit: I'm like literally confused as to what you think is a contradiction. I'll be very surprised if that is the scumteam after my exchange with Joyed.

This is literal trash. You made me spend a minute of my life looking at this which doesn't even give a read on PlusJoy.

You say PlusJoy has shifted their read; but you say scum wouldn't be this bold. The pivoting to Andres might be scum trying to bus here - scum bussing now would get massive towncred.

[shellyc]

regardless, one of these days you'll see someone make an actual contradiction and you'll eliminate them for it and they'll flip town and you'll be so confused and I can't wait

contradicting one's self is the opposite of a scumtell. it tends to suggest that your thoughts are still open minded because you're solving a puzzle; not rigid because you're (scum) pushing a narrative.

regardless I didn't contradict myself, I just vomit mafia theory out of habit.

#1295, #1276 and #1311 is IIoA. I am not inclined to believe you spit out mafia theory as a personality trait. Your posting has been a confusing mess to me. The only thing that's relevant you've said the entire game is how andre's scumgame is mediocre. (and then you retracted the scumteam proposal)

Can I have your initial thoughts or reads?

[shellyc]

This is literal trash. You made me spend a minute of my life looking at this which doesn't even give a read on PlusJoy.

You say PlusJoy has shifted their read; but you say scum wouldn't be this bold. The pivoting to Andres might be scum trying to bus here - scum bussing now would get massive towncred.

yuck.

I don't think scum!JOYED put that much effort into really ensuring that they bussed Andres, no. despite signalling a townread on Andres, I don't think they *actually* want Andres alive.

Scum want VCA towncred. They really want it. If Andres flips red then PlusJoy will get ALL THE CREDIT for pivoting and ensuring Andres' death.

[shellyc]

if you find anything I'm saying confusing, please quote it and make an effort to explain why you're confused and I'll try to explain it. I think you're being more hurtful to my personality than valuable to sorting my alignment and I'd appreciate if you could put some effort in.

The reason why I'm being so aggressive to you is trying to sort your alignment

One thing I did was voting you when I already knew my vote was on you. I was trying to provoke a reaction from my posts. #1314 was baiting a reaction as well.

I don't know if this is AI. "put some effort in" is a town mindset for me.

[shellyc]

look me in the fact and say you think newbscum!JOYED was so stressed in that situation that they felt they needed to switch their vote onto their partner despite having townread them like 2 posts before and having absolutely no downwards read trajectory. I'm pretty sure anyone reading that exchange would be absolutely baffled as to why JOYED is shifting their vote onto Andres. like the vote shift makes no effort whatsoever to be a cohesive thought, and rather than explain why his read is changing he starts posturing what we should do if Andres flips green.

so like

please look me in the face and tell me you actually read that exchange and thought "oh boy town!worst sure did talk scum!JOYED into voting scum!Andres".

if JOYED is as new as he reads, I reeeeeally don't think some vague possible speculative vca benefit crossed his mind and made him want to bus? experienced players in current meta also tend to realise that nearly nobody uses vca atm?

I'm literally a complete newb. The meta I've experienced was chat mafia meta where scum love bussing for towncred.

I'm also confused as to why PlusJoy is shifting alright? The conclusion I came to was bussing scum and you point out it is incorrect and I respect that. Yet you can't come to a conclusion...

[shellyc]

I mean I'm here to have a good time and play to my wincon. I don't really enjoy playing with people who are aggressive and don't make an effort to read what I'm saying so.. ┐(´д`)┌

I did read your posting. I looked through your ISO thrice.

[shellyc]

like again JOYED strikes me as a complete newbie and like I just don't agree that they see a vector to really sloppily bus their partner there and then rather than explaining their read just move their vote and go to bed? I just think that's a bizarre conclusion to come to after following that exchange

The whole way through I was like "oh they're reversing their townread for no reason. they're about to vote Andres aren't they. ok get a read out of the-- oh..nope they voted Andres. ok get their Andres rea-- nope they're going to bed."

am I bad? I think this is a much stronger scum!JOYED tell than town!Andres indicator

After reading the PlusJoy thing once again, I agree their sudden reversal seems out of place. I am not sure this is AI though...

[shellyc]

like can you have a glass of water, look at yourself in the mirror, come back and try again?

Okay. I'll be right back.

[shellyc]

not AI? sick love it. talk me through how town!JOYED is prompted for a read in that engagement and comes to the conclusion that he would rather vote his townread and posture scum for after the flip rather than talk about his read.

Have returned. town!PlusJoy reads Andres as scum off the description you gave them and logically thinks because andres is bad scum their scumminess is AI towards scum. Makes sense?

[shellyc]

Don’t get distracted, it would be nice to see the game from a different POV. Before we head into possible melo.

TMI? Assuming that we actually get into MeLo?

[shellyc]

the worst who do you think is partnered with PlusJoy, since you now SR them

[shellyc]

if it's a genuine thought, JOYED hasn't shared his work with the class which is pretty troublesome. he's been defending Andres all game which is another thing I think is weakly less likely to come from scumbuddies. I haven't scumcased Andres, I've made some vague comments about his meta/skill as a player.

Maybe the comments have influenced PlusJoy's read on Andres. Just speculation at this point.

[shellyc]

I think linking to finished games is cool but linking to currently playing games might be a little risqué.

Meta reads. Providing all the resources for y'all. Of course you are free to judge my signature choices.

Is this IIoA against btw

[shellyc]

EBWOP I meant IIoA again

[shellyc]

This is NAI conversation(sort of)
It’s against the rules to discuss ongoing games, so linking to ongoing games is just a portal to potential problems especially in newbie games where they might use those links and then comment on ongoing games accidentally.

If you are aware of this mistake I'm sure you will not make it.

[shellyc]

last thing to note a finished game is considered finished when a faction has won the game.

I looked this up. Isn't completed the term when a faction has won?

[shellyc]

I need to rethink Shelly and joy as town reads.

Interesting. What makes you say this?

[shellyc]

You lied to me on August 25th.

I have not.

[shellyc]

Okay I find where I did. Newbie 2025 was my first towngame. I didn't die in it yet and I didn't want to expose my alignment

[shellyc]

I just have no idea why you would over something fairly inconsequential.

Consequence: I would expose my alignment in that game.

[shellyc]

Interesting.
UNVOTE: Andres
Actually, I still townread Andres and scumread you, I just didn't want to be direct. I just wanted to see your reaction when I put you in a situation where I would go after you next if Andres flipped town and died, and so you want to get rid of me the next day.

What?! After me and the worst read you as scum for the vote, you decide to unvote. This sounds like scum trying to rectify

[shellyc]

and you aren't voting scum who is trying to rectify whyyyyy exactly?

were my walls & walls of insightful catchup with clear read trajectory too scummy?

I read your catchup - imo you could have put that in your notes PT but yeah sure I see your townie mindset. Your vote is a placeholder and I'm currently reading PlusJoy's ISO to read them as I can't really get a read off there

[shellyc]

No, I wanted to do something like that to gauge the replacements reaction to something scummy, called a slayers gambit. Though it was a bit risky to do, and I can see why you'd wanna elim me. On the bright side, once I flip town we'll have a mafia pretty soundly proven
VOTE: the worst

Woah woah. OMGUS? I have no idea why you would OMGUS there. Btw what happened to your NS scumread as the parts of your ISO i've read so far you've been SRing NS

[shellyc]

That's E-1 by the way if I recall correctly.

I no longer scumread the worst. Those posts are solid gold town mindset.
VOTE: Unvote

[shellyc]

I'm going to post this first

Is #927 trying to help scum PR hunt or what. Why in the world would town be interested in PR hunting?
SRs NS and andre early on and puts bulge as town PR? WHAT WHY WOULD YOU LIST WHO IS TOWN PR
#1022 is NS very scum me a bit scum and the rest of the post dishes out TRs... Giving that many townpasses is scummy to me imo
#1026 puts Bella (currently the worst) as null (Hesitant to wagon, a little scummy)
#1035 switches to Bella, was nearly a hammer and placed them at E-1. The thought process was a bit illogical for my liking

[shellyc]

From the above PlusJoy's slot leans scum. Haven't finished reading the next half though

Semi placeholder vote VOTE: PlusJoy

[shellyc]

Hope not much goes on and I'll continue reading

By the way PlusJoy-the worst is TvS to me. Literally if PlusJoy flips green today (which doesn't seem plausible) we should elim the worst

[shellyc]

PlusJoy ISO analysis part 2. Sorry my reading's been very slow

#1057-#1065 sounds like IIoA to me and they contradicted.
SRs Bella for defensive and agrees with me which is NAI
Thinks bella is scum again because they haven't claimed
#1084 townpoints for being consistent with NS / bellaworst push
#1093 sheeps again
#1103 says my posts are geniune town and TRs Bell / Andres for sussing PlusJoy opening
RED FLAG #1093 and #1107 literally respond to the same thing differently which is weird
#1109 sounds like trying to spread paranoia (but seems like the emotion is on spot there) idk really whether this is panicking town or scum trying to spread paranoia
#1150 randomly self votes to bait out last scum. Now self voting is still a scumtell to me but imo the execution could feasibly come from town
Scum are self aware and they wouldn't suddenly randomly hammer you plusjoy! Your self vote is useless
wtf is #1169? This is an indication of being self aware

[shellyc]

@the worst I might chat with you postgame on why you decided to dig so hard on me knowing I flip town. If I was mafia in bella slot, I don't think it'd be a very good idea to push me this hard when you know I'm town, since you'll just get elimed the next day. How do you plan on reacting when I do flip town day 3?

So you are willing to be limmed?

By the way 14 hours left and deadline is coming

[shellyc]

PlusJoy are you just going to disregard the ISO analysis I have done?

[shellyc]

#1190 IIoA again
#1201 TR andre (only thing they say in their post)
#1241 votes NS again
#1251 explains SR on NS for leading IV wagon which was "obvtown" IMO the IV elim wasn't a good one we have so many other good choices
Keeps strong TR bell weak TR me
#1252 Andres is VT? WHAT are you doing helping maf find PRs is this TMI?
#1269 repeats TR Bell Slight TR me and TR Andres
Apparently the TR on andres is because "too scummy to be scum" idk if this logic stands though
Then changes mind because the worst says Andres is bad at being scum... sounds like a very fast pivot. I wouldnt suddenly revoke a strong TR
Votes andres then unvotes them
says they never SR andres but imo those SRing posts were very genuine

Will make conclusion

[shellyc]

In conclusion a majority of their posts seems illogical and from a scum perspective especially the PR identifying things, the vote and unvote of andres and you seem very self aware

[shellyc]

you're literally the only factor in this game which makes me apprehensive about eliminating JOYED
like ftr i'm just reminding myself that nash was Intensely wolfy and JOYED's posts don't make sense from a solving mindset and he's reacted to being pushed by hedging a read on me and then posturing (again)

i guess i sincerely don't think JOYED is town so this isn't really important

After reading their ISO they look bad. PlusJoy will almost certainly flip scum here

[shellyc]

PlusJoy are you just going to disregard the ISO analysis I have done?

yeah, I don't care much at how scum or town I look really now that I've trapped a scum. I mean I've townread you and you seem to be just decieved by maf the worst. It's fine though, just make sure you tunnel the worst if I get elimed tomorrow and all will be well

We'll see you flip red. I don't think I have been manipulated. They literally spent pages bickering at me

[shellyc]

At the end of the day, I like gambiting a lot and am willing to take big risks to advance my teams objective because I find it to be fun. I hope town won't be mad at me too much when I flip VT

Gambits aren't widely used for a reason.

[shellyc]

A huge portion of your ISO is SRing NS. seems like you're trying to save yourself which isn't that possible

[shellyc]

why would I speculate on PR openly as scum when I can do that during the night phase safely. That was a genuine miatake as town on my part that andres got right; my opening as a whole was very scummy.

Too scummy to be scum? That's your case now

I don't believe in "too scummy to be scum", speculating about PRs just isn't a townie mindset

[shellyc]

First post; it's LimLo. How PlusJoy flipped town is still a mystery to me.

RIP Bell so we know now the setup is rolecop + goon and tracker + doctor

I stand by my TR on NS. I still TR the worst slightly for that town mindset from that readthrough.

My most likely solve here is the bulge / andres.

[shellyc]

Second, if you think The Bulge and I are the Scum Team, then that’s pretty horrific.

PoE NS townie The worst townie

[shellyc]

I don’t think bulge would be hard bussing his partner all game.

Why not?

[shellyc]

@shelly when did you realise bell was the tpr?

When they flipped. I'm trash at picking up PR hints.

[shellyc]

Shelly talk to me.

I feel like Andre is mimicking my play yesterday that people were townreading and it’s irking me

Mmm

Hi NS we can talk

[shellyc]

why did you have the slot so hard townread?

Because I believed the slot was a townie, they had an uber town mindset.

They questioned both replacements right away and gave decent reads.

[shellyc]

I'll circle back to you a bit later this phase if it's ok; I think I'm gonna get more out of talking about you than talking to you this ealry

Cool beans. Btw why did you ask other players to search Bulge in my ISO? If you're doing partner analysis, why Bulge in particular?

[shellyc]

I'm still scumleaning on Bulge. the worst / bulge scumteam still seems feasible here

[shellyc]

Shelly my gut is screaming to the high heavens that something’s up between worst and Andre.

Both of them just feel weird today.

I don’t even Know how to feel about bulge anymore because my guts not screaming he’s town but he’s not dumb and knows I am leaning his way so why would he have me alive?

Andre was very slimy to me d2. Maybe because of the profile pic lol. I am feeling town on the worst for attempting to gamesolve but they are obviously competent

[shellyc]

Current lynch order:
The Bulge
Andres
the worst
NS

pedit Andres / the worst is a solve I have in mind but am not leaning towards. You literally pointed out Andres' weak scumrange and caused plusjoy to vote for Andres

[shellyc]

I've never felt fuzzier feelings than when I saw Andres' trajectory late D1. His absence D2 was definitely notgr8 but he didn't feel like...overtly scummy to me I suppose

Is this an SR or TR on andres

pedit go circle andres

[shellyc]

I townread Andres. I'd be really really interested in seeing a case for scum!andres.

Looks like The Bulge is trying to make that case, which further contributes to me SRing them

[shellyc]

If he doesn't get to my super fun exercise over like the next day or two there's a lot of stuff in what you're posting which is settling off little fireworks in my brain

what do you mean fireworks? lol

[shellyc]

I suppose I can say

There's very few solves left without one of {NS,me} being fucked up levels of pocketed. I don't *feel* pocketed but when do I ever etc. etc.

to that end I basically need Andres to nuke his scumrange like asap and so far I basically agree with the way he's approaching this phase which means either he's just town or I've Dived In Too Deep : )))

I see things about you/bulge which make for interesting content
I'm curious to see how Andres approaches them
I'm curious to get another perspective into what I'm seeing

I need actual trajectory from notty because his entrance to this phase looks like a wolf in a good spot

Do I... not exist in the game?

[shellyc]

2022 look at my play there vs here.

I’m pretty sure I look miles different.

I did read your 2022 play and I can say that theres a difference, thats why im still feeling town on you here

pedit: interesting

[shellyc]

his sincerity on late D1 was pretty striking imo, I agreed with some of his reads very strongly (NASH) and Believed the balance of them

I'm not going to towncase this unless I get a scumcase I really don't believe and just have to throw something contrary to get actual opinions, casing is boring

I felt my opinion on Andres shift like it was rammed by a whale tho I'm kinda surprised it didn't show in my posting

imma be honest here I can't see a TR on Andres from your opening

[shellyc]

which opening? it's a read I picked up during reread and it's like the sole assumption I'm going into xylo with until disproven

Your opening when replacing in and the huge bunch of things I told you to put in your notes pt

[shellyc]

Now Shelly doesn’t it seem weird with how much worst has been pushing they can’t be scum together?

Idk. Bulge needs to do more things.

Bulge has been half coasting through the whole game which is another reason why I believe they are scum.

The problem is I can't seem to nail their partner

pedit: the worst I too find it slightly odd that the worst and andres are insisting they cant be partners. Is there a hidden TFN in here?
pedit: so you SR me now huh? My pure town energy will shine through
pedit: yeah I agree

[shellyc]

uh Andres said he & bulge can't be partners. I said Andres & i can't be

I'm town, I think NS is town. How about the worst / bulge solve?

I stand by my lynchpool

[shellyc]

Townpasses without good reasoning here are very dangerous. A pocket would definitely lead to a scum win if the pocketed votes with scum

[shellyc]

That being said, can't really see reasons for andres TR other than "sincerity", " agreeing with reads" (which is half a scumtell) and "gut" from the worst

"Pretty good" but "wrong". Shivering in your scum PT?

pedit: I'm aware of a NS pocket. I really TR them and if needed i can towncase them

[shellyc]

So are you positing a bulge Shelly team Andre? Or a me bulge team where we don’t just meta defend each other the whole game.

Or a me Shelly team?

Bulge me doesn't make sense though. I've been scumreading them this whole limlo phase

[shellyc]

NS me might make sense since we're townbinning each other but I just don't see scum townbinning and not attacking their partner throughout

[shellyc]

if you're scum it's probably just with the bulge. bam. said it.

problem is, I'm town.

[shellyc]

imma dip for lunch for a bit

[shellyc]

are you australian too by any chance

Nah. I'm from asia but aussie is 2 hours off or something

[shellyc]

OK so you're saying that I talk around bulge a whole lot but am not interested in sorting them. This could apply to you not sorting me in your solve.

If you wish I can spend the afternoon scumcasing them. I will scumcase them if someone says "oh bulge is def a townie"

[shellyc]

as an aside she bussed her partner d1 in her other game which was probably sensible but there is very little meta of associatives.

I bussed them slightly because they were half lurking. When deadline came about a lot of the thread sussed me and my partner so the only option was to counterwagon my partner

[shellyc]

oh bulge is def a townie

Thank you for giving me something to do this afternoon.

[shellyc]

I kinda didn't expect this game to empty out
please all say word things when you get a chance ): despite my serene disposition I don't feel confident about this game at all.

Was busy with work IRL, haven't cased The Bulge yet. Sorry

[shellyc]

make sure to play some marathons as well while the event is on I saw you pop up in the marathon chat in discord!

yeah im playing a marathon right now

[shellyc]

Out of curiosity why were you reading 2022 Shelly

Reason 1: weaversden came from the same chat mafia site that I played in and I wanted to see how he did
Reason 2: Meta-reasearch reasons

[shellyc]

throw this one on the pile lol. ouroel was completely absent from the game by the end of day 1. what a weird way to try and further paint the bulge/shelly pairing as plausible

Bulge pocketing me here?

[shellyc]

Planning to case Bulge today

[shellyc]

Shelly js if worst is scum with Andres they just asked for the case to drive you further down the conf bias tunnel. Idk why she’s asking for a case when they are the main pusher of bulge scum?

im not asking for a case I'm reading their ISO right now

[shellyc]

Might not post as much here because of Marathons.

IMO the worst asked me to case him because they thought we were viable partners and they're trying to establish that we are partners (which isn't true)

[shellyc]

which voices?

[shellyc]

i'm realising you never pushed andres either despite apparently scum/null-reading him for a long ass time

BulgevAndres is TvS, i believe Bulge is scum and andres town here

pedit: Bulge is null on worst iirc

[shellyc]

new lynchpool

Bulge
Worst
Andres
NS

[shellyc]

didn't worst TR bell because they PR slipped somehow (can't find the PR slip)

[shellyc]

sleep well - pending shelly check in I'll be voting bulge when you wake.

casually checks in

worst is probably town and Andres is probably town im seriously thinking that NS has pocketed me

[shellyc]

solve NS / Bulge now

just read d2

[shellyc]

D2 was mainly starting off with Bella and Andres scum then towards midday most consolidated on bell town and me town

Then you replaced in and hard pushed plusjoy then they got limmed

I am 100% fine with Bulge vote

[shellyc]

Notice throughout the whole game NS pushes Bulge

just enough

to arouse attention, but not enough for a lim

While The Bulge puts NS as town look at 1007

Which is very odd to me, why is the bulge not pushing NS for being aggressive towards him

[shellyc]

I’m that confident I should be townread because obvtowning is one of my strengths. That used to be my game plan- look town as fuck, figure out who of my usual few had good reads and sheep them.

This literally proves NS has a non town mindset town is supposed to scumhunt and scum are image focused. obvtowning is still scumleaning

[shellyc]

VOTE: Bulge

Stand by ns / bulge solve

[shellyc]

AtE now huh? This just confirms the solve is ns / bulge here

[shellyc]

VOTE: the worst

[shellyc]

Good game everyone

I still have no idea how I managed to get a universal TR d2

[shellyc]

Time to update my signature. 100% winrate so far on this site

*having completed two games

[shellyc]

Just talk yourself up, and tear yourself down.

You've hit your one wall, now find a way around.

Nearly got bulge limmed d3 though. One thing I noticed - the only person that voted for me throughout the game was Bell and it was a random-ish vote. Surprised I got through so cleanly

pedit: yeah I had a wall casing NS and was prepared to kill andres

[shellyc]

shelly was a dope partner and deserves the credit for our positioning on each other's slots, definitely a worry-free partner. thank you shelly! and thank you beeboy for hosting!

pedit- you might have actually been one of the first to sus ouroel, but iirc the worst was actually the first to call me/shelly as a pair

Thank you! Was great playing scum with you.

I do have scum potential - winning a chaotic 1v7 myself first game and getting a near universal TR midgame in my second.

pedit PlusJoy would actually have been great in limlo

[shellyc]

Collection of quotes:

"Newbtown whose posts I can actually read" - NS
"shellyc has a lot of that Town energy that is difficult to fake." - Andres
"Shelly town - Less sure on this one myself. They seemed newbie and genuine and not afraid to push" - PlusJoy
"Shelly and joy as town reads." - Bell

The sweet taste of victory.

[shellyc]

I wanted to flip bulge but I was letting my paranoia get to me from the worsts push

Was ready to give up bulge and go for NS / bulge world. I could feasibly convince the worst to mislim there

[shellyc]

lol when post game discussion begins before the game even ended

[shellyc]

no scum on d1 wagon made a great gamestate for us

[shellyc]

ouroel was very unreadable, I think they might be d2/d3 lim if I didn't replace in. (in other words, I CLUTCHED THE GAME!)

[shellyc]

Idk I think if it’s the two of us worst picks you. I might not have been right read wise but I’m good at arguing that I’m town

Your d1 was meh, it was mainly encouraging the bulge to talk more and then you spammed at deadline

[shellyc]

your the bulge gut SR was on point to the point when I was ready to lim him

[shellyc]

player list was great this game, enjoyed it a lot

[shellyc]

I did deliberately TR NS early on as a pocket

[shellyc]

I'm surprised at my universal TR before worst replaced in

[shellyc]

shelly, how did u feel when I asked you to scumcase your buddy then accused you of intentionally not sorting your buddy <3

I did have part of it written up, just didn't have the time to finish it off lol

Would have done it if the day went on for longer

[shellyc]

I do discord, am on MS discord and posted before