Open 789: Two-Fold 2d3 [Game Over]

[Dannflor]

VOTE: Dunnstral

Hey, everybody!

[Dannflor]

TripleHaven, why didn't you vote?

[Dannflor]

VOTE: TripleHaven

[Dannflor]

It means that I am recognising a truth universally acknowledged, that a single dannflor in possession of his wits, must be in the process of being inevitably TR by Menalque

I would lowkey expect that opposite after Ali vs. Pine

[Dannflor]

Dann, why’d you change your vote to haven?

It's very small but I didn't like how she switched her vote from you to Umlaut. You had two votes on you at the time and RVS voting you would have built a sizable wagon. I wonder if maybe she was scared off by being the third vote on a (let's say town for now) wagon and decided to switch her vote to someone with no votes yet. Also, the "for sheeping" reasoning is kinda strange considering she had just sheeped people on the Menalque vote.

It's possible this didn't cross Haven's mind at all and I read far too much into it, but it was mildly scummier than I thought Dunnstral was.

Why'd you put Marashu at the bottom of your preliminary reads list?

[Dannflor]

Ah yes, I always forget about hydra games

[Dannflor]

It is absolutely a very stretchy reach. But I'd rather base a vote 2 pages in on a stretchy reach than nothing.

And yes, I think Dunn's posts so far this game have been marginally more scummy than anything else I've read. Which is like... a few percentage points. I don't think he's "scummy," it's just scummier than other posts by comparison of almost every post being NAI.

[Dannflor]

Also, I have a lot of respect for your scumgame, how would you say you do as town? I’m not sure I’ve ever played with/against town!you

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=80031

[Dannflor]

I would say my town game is better than my scum game, but I don't think as highly of my scum game as other people do.

[Dannflor]

Also, what happened to your title?

I decided I didn't like it

[Dannflor]

Early on is exactly the time to be reach imo.

I just expect a lot from Dunnstral's town game and entering with a setup question followed by #42 where he answers a question with a non-answer question that doesn't really seem productive or game-furthering in anyway is not what I expect from him.

Like I said, very minor. And I think you're supposed to be a little "eh" on my reasoning. A lot of my early game reads are moon logic. But you gotta start somewhere.

Is your hiraki read another meme or is that realz? What's the meta reason?

[Dannflor]

nvm I should read the preview box

[Dannflor]

Also, I feel like I don’t have a sense of your towngame despite that game because it was so long ago (I mean damn boi, I looked in your ISO and you were having to explain “gated” to me) and I feel like I approach games very differently now

I just linked it because I remember it as a town game I performed decently in and I think it summarizes my own game well. It doesn't really matter. I think you'll get to know the difference this game.

[Dannflor]

VOTE: hiraki

[Dannflor]

I think I’ve just moved away from this in my own approach and like to just solidly meme normally until my reads start firming up as people start pushing etc, and I think I’m trying to avoid being reachy myself as I’ve come to terms with the fact that my reads are like, not great

For dunn: guess I’m willing to wait and see? I’ve misread him as scum before when he’s just had a lazy towngame and so I think that’s not pinging me because I have no idea if this is likely to be a tryhardy game for him as town, plus I think he’s out in multiple very competent scum performances recently and lowkey think he’d make a townier entrance than that if he were scum. So I guess I’m a gut level I’m very slightly townleaning him from it

That's fair. I just like to make things happen sometimes and maybe don't mind looking dumb with bad reads later on.

Overall, I expect my reads to change a lot. I'm willing to wait and see with Dunn too. Me scum reading an element of someone's posting or even voting a slot doesn't necessarily mean I want to kill that slot RIGHT NOW, it can often just mean I want to see what happens if I do.

[Dannflor]

I want to call Mena town but I've never played a multi-ball setup before and I'm scared about how that might affect my reads

[Dannflor]

VOTE: Hiraki

[Dannflor]

Haven is also a good wagon

[Dannflor]

Yo Dann, teacher, haven, dunn — this feels like I’m being dealt with in very bad faith, but I find it hard to judge when I’m the one someone is aiming at

Do you think that’s accurate to what’s happening or am I reading too much into this?

I think he has the highest chance of flipping scum right now. His reaction to the two of us voting him is the most egregious post I think.

Right now, I think he's reached a point where he initially latched on to something to scum read, realized it wasn't as damning as he initially thought it was, but now doesn't know how to back down from that without looking more scummy. It's possible that comes from awkward/stubborn town, particularly one that has a philosophy of not interacting with scum reads?? But with #98 I rather doubt it.

[Dannflor]

He also doesn't appear to be trying to sort you in any meaningful way even if he has realized the initial basis for his scum read wasn't as strong as he thought it was.

[Dannflor]

ITT salt about being caught for the wrong reason.

yeah basically this

[Dannflor]

except we might be talking about two different slots

[Dannflor]

there is only one person ITT that seems salty atm

[Dannflor]

I am only somewhat suspicious of TripleHaven because of how self-conscious she seems to be about where her vote is placed. Nothing else she's done (greeting tell included) has struck me as scummy.

[Dannflor]

I don't really have any thoughts on dram. #143 struck me as slightly town maybe?

[Dannflor]

Right now, I think he's reached a point where he initially latched on to something to scum read, realized it wasn't as damning as he initially thought it was, but now doesn't know how to back down from that without looking more scummy. It's possible that comes from awkward/stubborn town, particularly one that has a philosophy of not interacting with scum reads?? But with #98 I rather doubt it.

he's literally saying that i thought i, as scum, could pull of a lynch on page 5 based off of a page 2 reads post that excludes 90% of the playerlist - why on earth would i take that argument seriously? it's probably one of the worst things i've read on this site lol. who in their right minds thinks that post is damning? because i called melanque scum 4 times based off of it? really? page 5? scum 4 times without providing any reasoning? hard push? no one else wants to call it like it is?

i will gladly be the D1 lynch if this is the type of logic i'm gonna be encountering in this game after our first little kerfuffle into mod intervention. thought i was in an open, not a newbie

this is not what I was saying but go off i guess

[Dannflor]

In the scenario you are scum, scum generally have to fake scum reads (this is a little different cuz multiball but it still applies to some extent). I think you thought that Menalque's initial reads list was scummy, and used that as a basis for a strong scum read on him. No where did I say you were gonna try to pull off a lynch based off that or whatever it is you're trying to think I'm saying. I'm just saying I think you latched onto that scum read and then didn't back down for ??? some reason.

You're saying it wasn't a hard scum read now, is that the case?

I assumed it was a strong scum read because you called Menalque scum multiple times and then ignored him/refused to engage him on it. It seemed to me like you'd decided he was scum and that's why you didn't want to engage him on your read with him.

Maybe I'm misreading the situation, but I also think you misread my post. What exactly is your read on Menalque right now and why?

[Dannflor]

this LITERALLY SAYS that i am THROWING A HAIL MARY

that's not what literally means and no that's not my intent

[Dannflor]

is that a yes or no

I just want to know what your reads are man

[Dannflor]

HAIL MARY - BRINGING IT TO THE END GOAL - DAMNING AS HE INITIALLY THOUGHT IT WAS

this does not mean I thought you were trying to push through an exile on menalque

this means I thought you had a scum read that you no longer believed in, but weren't backing down because reasons

That might be wrong!

But I don't understand currently what your position on Menalque is or why

[Dannflor]

am i scumreading the person

- who i am voting
- who i said overreacted to what was substantially not a hard push but because i called them "scum" four times, that is a hard push

yeah, honestly, i have no clue man

okay cool

is there more to that read?

also do you think it's possible you perceive what the definition of a hard push is differently from he?

[Dannflor]

It feels like you weren't engaging him in good faith. It seemed like you didn't really want to engage him or explain yourself.

What is it in the 5 posts that I made after receiving my role PM that you believe was so strongly scum indicative?

Why do you care? You're already calling me scum, right?

How am I pushing hard again? Last I checked, you wanted to talk about this but I was pretty okay ignoring you. There's a word for this...let me take out my dictionary...

posts like these make it seem like you just want to ignore him when he clearly is still confused on your read, which makes it seem that you don't want to engage him

and the tone that could be construed as rude/aggressive could be perceived as baiting whether it was intentional or not. I personally understand why Menalque might have reacted the way he did

[Dannflor]

I don't know, I feel that you've been the most aggressive player here by a long shot and I'm struggling to see why

I understand scum reads on your slot are frustrating, particular when they seem to be for bogus reasons, but I would expect town to make a better faith attempt to sort the people scum reading them

[Dannflor]

I mean by now my read has evolved

I now think you're scum that has been "caught for the wrong reasons" and that's why you're so frustrated. Of course, a townie can get mad for getting scum read for shit reasons too, but they usually try to sort the people scum reading them as well. The aggression feels like a mask for your alignment.

[Dannflor]

I see what you're getting at with that quote dramonic, but tbh I don't think it's that indicative of anything

I don't think calling an extremely over-simplified stat dumb necessarily means Haven is salty because she's scum

if I'd never heard about that before and someone tried to use that to scum read me I'd likely call it dumb too

[Dannflor]

What was Marashu being scum read for and why are they now off the hook

[Dannflor]

why is everyone in this game more focused on producing sassy one liners than actually engaging with people

[Dannflor]

we have very different philosophies

or maybe just different levels of self-confidence

[Dannflor]

There's no solid stance at any point. It's all "I sorta see it but maybe not teehee" kind of stuff.

Hiraki seems to be an individual that you have to interact with very delicately or else you won't get any useful information out of him at all. My goal was not to take a solid stance and call him out but try to tease out his reasoning behind his actions to better understand his alignment. I thought it was possible he was just raging town.

One thing I am wondering here is how your read has evolved here, dann? I mean you were considering Hiraki already in 148 and 151 as caught for wrong reasons, immediately after your vote, which is the conclusion you reached later in 222. It doesn't really seem like it has evolved? Or were you considering he might also has been stubborn town? Although you weren't really leaning on that either if I understood you right.

I was considering he might have been stubborn town. I still am to an extent but I think that's much more unlikely now. I don't think I can scum read the rage or obstinance in itself as that seems to be just a personality trait. However, I do scum read the lack of any attempt to actually genuinely figure out the alignments of the people around him. In 12 pages he hasn't espouse another read besides a scum read on Menalque. His existence right now just seems to be centered around shooting down anyone who tries to question him. It's something that would be easy to read as stubborn town but stubborn town usually has other *town* things going for them in my experience.

Also, I meant my read had evolved from my initial reasoning to scum read Hiraki in #148 to firmly "scum caught for the wrong reasons" based off his furthered reactions to my questioning on him. I took a bit to try and engage with him but it didn't really shift that.

[Dannflor]

btw Dunnstral is posting elsewhere on site that's not here sooooo that's also a good wagon

[Dannflor]

TripleHaven, did you get anything else out of the last several pages? Particularly a read on teacher?

[Dannflor]

and teacher, do you have a more solid read on Hiraki now than scum tingles?

[Dannflor]

I'm sick of the hiraki talk so I scrolled passed a lot of it.

eh this is mildly townie

[Dannflor]

I think so

[Dannflor]

try again

[Dannflor]

I'm not really a huge fan of Testa or Gypx avoiding taking a real stance on Hiraki

Testa's posts otherwise seem towny?

[Dannflor]

dramonic does not believe in such petty and useless things as "sorting people" or "playing mafia"

[Dannflor]

I don't have any alts! I think my only experience with you has been indirectly through Team Mafia this year. I was on the_worst's team.

[Dannflor]

could someone who isn't in dramonic's scum list ask dramonic for the "why" behind his reads please and thank you

[Dannflor]

yeah I would guess the posters on this page are all town and scum is sitting back

[Dannflor]

Honestly I kinda like Dramonic. They are at least producing content/providing reasoning behind reads (hey, Hiraki, any time you want to hit up 295 that would be grand). While I disagree with their takes, I can see the reasoning and I like the different perspective. I also dont really feel like they're misrepping.

Okay, what about the specific thing I just talked about? Like my reason for why I think hiraki is scum has been fairly clearly laid out and has nothing to do with whether I like their style much or not

Why do you think dram was implying that that was my reason for voting there?

Im not certain he was. It was a throwaway line at the end of a post with a different topic. Regardless, its obvious that Dram doesnt agree with/think much of your Hiraki case, so Im not surprised that he would belittle it. I just dont see it as misrepping, and certainly not intentionally so, rather than stating his own view of it.

@dann do you agree/disagree with this?

dram's playstyle annoys me and it's hard for me to get a read on him without that interfering

but I don't see reason to believe he's scum versus stubborn / self-confident town at this point in time

[Dannflor]

you think almost50 is the scummiest slot triplehaven?

where are your other reads at?

[Dannflor]

you think almost50 is the scummiest slot triplehaven?

where are your other reads at?

Not really, I was trying to make a joke lol
I think Dam and Hiraki both have a higher chance of flipping scum
speaking of,
VOTE: dam

why dram over hiraki?

[Dannflor]

if you actually look at what hes doing

what is he doing?

[Dannflor]

let's not start writing things that you'll start regretting soon enough

(BEFORE THE PEANUT GALLERY DECIDES TO READ THIS WRONG - IT IS NOT A THREAT)

omg he's saying gamma will regret it because he's scum and gonna kill gamma with the scum kill!1

VOTE: Hiraki

[Dannflor]

UNVOTE:

[Dannflor]

Menalque, why are you town reading me?

[Dannflor]

Menalque, why are you town reading me?

I liked your initial engagement with me about you being reachy and then it cemented from when you were sorting hiraki in that conversation afterwards

How likely do you think it is I can fake that as scum?

It might seem weird but my main point of concern with your slot is how little you seem to be paranoid about me.

[Dannflor]

no thanks, cold meta isn't really my thing

that was more or less the answer I was looking for. More just curious about whether this was just your mindset about approaching reads or if it was something specific to do with how you were reading me this game

[Dannflor]

I am in a spot where I disagree with almost everything dramonic says, but I also think they absolutely 100% believe everything they are saying, and I think that conviction is towny. It wouldn't take too much to adjust his attitude slightly and *stand out* a bit less, or be more agreeable

in short I don't see what he would be gaining (as scum) by playing the game the way that he is

[Dannflor]

my initial reaction was town

Are there elements of his entrance you take issue with besides his trajectory on Hiraki? Like assuming Hiraki is town, would you still find his entrance scummy

[Dannflor]

Teacher isn't even attempting to veil his omgus vote above, no pretenses and no explanations

this seems like a shallow take?

[Dannflor]

I am now also thinking I may have been wrong on Hiraki btw

[Dannflor]

Menalque, could you elaborate on your town read on TripleHaven? Is there more to it than meta?

[Dannflor]

I just think I got a lot more annoyed than I meant to earlier in this game and I'm worried it colored my reads a lot

Hiraki's more recent posts have some genuine town pings, specifically #547 and #614

[Dannflor]

I guess like, meta doesn't seem like a great thing to base a read on here if you don't know how she'd behave as scum.

[Dannflor]

it's pretty easy to slap a few town reads on people as scum

openly admitting to having basically 1 real read isn't something scum really needs to do, it reads genuine to me

[Dannflor]

outweighs the reasons for thinking hiraki is scum

I'm not saying that yet. I feel bad for hedging so much but I got very annoyed this game and now that I've cooled off I'm taking a step back and wondering if I was looking for reasons for hiraki to be scum as a consequence of that.

Can you recap the reasons hiraki feels scum to you? Not a case just a few bullet points

[Dannflor]

I don't even mean it as an insult, I'm dumbfounded here.

some people play mafia differently from you

[Dannflor]

... Is there a word for fake lack-of-confidence?

it's called hedging but I don't think that's what menalque is trying to do here

[Dannflor]

VOTE: Dunnstral

@mod V/LA until Saturday sometime

[Dannflor]

Hi, I'm back! Will read and catch up over this evening/night.

[Dannflor]

VOTE: Bell - I'm getting some town pings, but I'm also getting some scum pings from this slot. I want pressure here to help sort. I don't know if it's because he's V/LA until Monday, but a lot of his posts feel like fluff and don't really contribute anything. Also not a fan of his intent to park a vote on Hiraki and not move it for the rest of D1.

What is your read on Hiraki? I don't really see a definitive stance by you on him

I'm curious why you'd be bothered by a vote on someone you haven't really sorted yet

[Dannflor]

eh I don't really think Dunn is scum anymore

At least his self-admittedly not reading the thread isn't inherently scummy. I can see his posts coming from non-invested town.

But I'd imagine he would establish more of a presence early on as scum

[Dannflor]

But I'd imagine he would establish more of a presence early on as scum

Also when I said this you fought me on it, or at the very least disagreed, so what’s changed?

eh it's more like first page vs. full first day

I thought his entrance / original posts were conceivably an entrance he thought would be town but ended up falling flat

but at this point it feels like he's not really going to establish anything before the day is over and that just feels like a death knell?

I don't really know what Dunnstral's scum game is like but personally I'm more confident as town that I can revive people's opinions of my slot after having a bad start or being inactive than I am as scum

[Dannflor]

VOTE: Hiraki

[Dannflor]

I don't really know what Dunnstral's scum game is like but personally I'm more confident as town that I can revive people's opinions of my slot after having a bad start or being inactive than I am as scum

I don’t really get what you’re saying here/how it’s relevant?

Like, as town I'm more okay with having a mediocre day 1 than I would be as scum.

If you want to endgame as scum you have to play relatively strongly from the beginning. As town, you don't have to worry about end gaming, and it's also always easier to turn your slot around and obvtown if you are actually town

[Dannflor]

maybe, maybe I'm just overthinking it

I just saw him openly admit to not reading the thread and it kinda changed how I was viewing him

I guess I don't really have a good reason to town read him perse, but as a Day 1 flip he's probably not ideal

[Dannflor]

I’m p sure it’s within Dunn’s meta to just lurk out as scum too

yeah okay

I'm still down to eliminate him at some point

but even if he flips scum I'd rather flip a slot like Hiraki that has a lot of posts/interaction but almost 0 progression

[Dannflor]

I like Bell, I like the way they've approached the game enough so far to put them as town and not rethink at least for today. Specifically, I think how he immediately called out Hiraki liking his entrance as weird was towny.

Marashu's #930 is bad. I'm not sure what separates Bell from the many other slots that need sorting, or what a single vote is going to do. "voting for pressure" is all well and good when there's a wagon, but we're pretty far through the day with already built up wagon candidates and Marashu votes a vanity wagon for pressure? He's not even pushing it as an elimination option

I almost immediately voted Marashu when I came back and saw that before I did some more reading and saw that Hiraki had basically not progressed at all since I'd left

[Dannflor]

I'm not really feeling Gamma scum either and I'm not sure if a hiraki!scum flip would change that either.

I think if Gamma wanted to come in and push someone to protect his scum buddy there are much better targets than dramonic, who was getting fairly widely town read if I remember correctly? Dramonic was also someone town reading hiraki so that theory feels off

[Dannflor]

I really liked marashu’s teacher vote

I don't like how quickly Marashu backed off of it and then switched to Bell though

Like it was good but it felt like Marashu went through the motions of sorting teacher

[Dannflor]

Do you think scum!gamma would knowingly pick a fight with town!me to defend a buddy or nah?

I don't know enough about his meta to really make a call like that about a specific player. I think he might if he felt his partner was in danger enough + you were an easy enough target.

I didn't really see him pushing you as much though over arguing with you about dramonic/hiraki?

[Dannflor]

Yeah I kind of liked it because he hasn’t had a /lot/ of success as scum I think, so I felt like him pushing teacher was quite indicative of independent thought and a willingness to pursue his own reads?

I just didn't see as much followup as I would've liked. He made one post engaging with teacher but I don't understand where he ended up on teacher read-wise and then he never picked back up with the questions he asked teacher

Some of that could be attributed to missing posts / getting uninvested in the game, but I feel like claiming to have reread and resorted his thoughts out and then going into a mostly empty vote on Bell has his conclusion is not a good way to reenter the thread

[Dannflor]

Oh that makes sense

I was viewing things as more people overall were town reading dramonic than town reading you at the time, thus you're an easier target.

I'd like to see him go into his thoughts on other slots besides dramonic more, particularly your slot.

[Dannflor]

am I pocketed by Menalque?

it's possible I'm underestimating his scum game but he feels like the player most genuinely trying to solve the game rnow by a long shot

[Dannflor]

the only partner I really see for Menalque is mayyybe Jake

but I don't really think Jake is scum either

[Dannflor]

I think I’ve talked myself back out of town reading Dunn anyway

Hiraki town reading me makes me pause for a moment not because of some reverse omgus reason but because it shows an actual change in his reads and he’s thinking about the game beyond “everyone stupidly attacking me is scum”

I’m not sure where the bell scum read comes from tho considering he liked bell’s entrance?

[Dannflor]

oh this is the first I've heard of that, teacher

I think maybe dram’s equity goes up if hiraki!town

uhhh not sure I agree why do you say this

[Dannflor]

Has your read on Jake's slot evolved at all since TH replaced out?

[Dannflor]

hm I'm thinking about going back to Dunn but I'm indecisive

[Dannflor]

VOTE: Dunn

[Dannflor]

also re: Jake

I just noticed he isn't voting a counter wagon despite being the top wagon himself. maybe his strategy is just to look town and hope the pressure evaporates, but the lack of any counter push at all from him is curious

[Dannflor]

Does dannflorr always think out loud?

I tend to try to be as transparent with my thoughts as possible yes

[Dannflor]

I am also trying to get back into a game that I missed a large chunk of and haven't read completely thoroughly yet

it's contributing a lot to dissonance within my own head even

[Dannflor]

Hiraki is scum or hiraki is not scum

The gamestate looks very different depending on which one of those is true

The only way to find out is flipping him and seeing what colour shows, so can we get to the doing that please instead of this endless back and forth in a no-info gamestate?

I mean if we're talking about flipping for info I'm somewhat interested in Jake given that slot has been the top wagon all day

I concede the point that even if Dunn flips scum we don't have a ton to go on though

[Dannflor]

I'm taking it as slightly towny

I don't have much more of an opinion on that slot though

[Dannflor]

I'm conflicted Menalque because I keep coming back to thinking Hiraki might actually be town

I'm gonna take a short break from the thread because my mind keeps going in circles and I'm not gonna accomplish anything more by thinking out loud

I'll come back with some conviction hopefully and put my vote down

[Dannflor]

Dann is my first real scum read tbh. And it’s based on very little.

Did you get a chance to meta me or is this based on the recent posts from that pinged you?

[Dannflor]

I'm sorry Menalque but I don't think I can vote Hiraki

I'm willing to talk to you about it though because right now I'm thinking you may be tunneled

[Dannflor]

VOTE: Marashu

[Dannflor]

Dann - catch me up. I don't want to read 48 pages.

dramonic and hiraki vs. menalque

long fight

like fifty pages long

they're probably all town?

dramonic and hiraki really think Jake is scum because of his predecessor in the slot

menalque doesn't but he's voting there because he's frustrated no one wants to eliminate Hiraki

[Dannflor]

VOTE: Bell - I'm getting some town pings, but I'm also getting some scum pings from this slot. I want pressure here to help sort. I don't know if it's because he's V/LA until Monday, but a lot of his posts feel like fluff and don't really contribute anything. Also not a fan of his intent to park a vote on Hiraki and not move it for the rest of D1.

Primarily for this post, which came after apparently doing a reread of the game and organizing his reads.

His previous pushes/votes read largely like he was going through the motions of asking a few questions but never really following up with how his read changed.

[Dannflor]

If you do get a chance to read, maybe skim TripleHaven's ISO and see if you have an opinion on that slot being the leading wagon since early on in the game.

[Dannflor]

Hiraki and Dunnstal have both gotten to 3 votes at various times as well, but I don't think another wagon has grown larger than that

[Dannflor]

Marashu, did you work anything out about Bell?

[Dannflor]

Dramonic, Hiraki,

I think there's a good chance you're both town, at least one of you believes I might be town,

let's real talk.

I think you guys need to pull your heads out of your asses and realize that just because you haven't gotten along with Menalque in this game specifically doesn't mean he isn't town. And at this point refusing to reevaluate him is extremely anti-town.

First of all, it is extremely rare (particularly in the site's current meta) for scum to top post in a game. What's even rarer is for that top poster to have OVER DOUBLE the next poster's total post count. Menalque has more posts than Dramonic and Hiraki COMBINED. The last scum player I saw who could maintain that type of presence was RadiantCowbells.

But okay, you might say, Menalque has posted a lot of fluff. Or he's posting a lot because he's been caught since page 3 and he's flailing. Let's ignore his mild temper tantrum from the last few pages that he absolutely never throws as scum because all it accomplishes is destroying his own credibility. Let's ignore the fact that his frustration with the game reads extremely genuine and it's backed up by 300+ posts of earnest solving that no one in this game approaches. I say we should ignore it because even though the AtE here (not all AtE is scum) SHOULD be confirming Menalque is town to you, you're going to brush it off as "lul he's frustrated scum who got caught."

Why isn't he frustrated scum who just got caught? Consider the fact that he's continually tried to question both of you to get a better read on your alignments despite the fact that the majority of your responses have been "lul caught scum." Unless he thinks he can pocket you, he has very little reason to do this as scum versus primarily appealing to the crowd. But, even despite dramonic being like a brick wall to talk to, Menalque has evolved his scum read on dramonic from early in the game to a town read. That's not something that furthers his win condition as scum. Continuing to try to engage with you fruitlessly is also a hallmark of town desperation, not scum desperation. Neither of you carry the influence in this game that your confidence suggests, scum!Menalque does not need to be afraid of you or appease you in anyway. Menalque has consistently tried to get some kind of good faith engagement going with both of you.

The popular theory, from dramonic at least, I think is that Menalque and TH/Jake are teamed. I can tell you right now that giving up with a lot of AtE and exasperatingly voting Jake is not how scum busses. Just via the amount of posting Menalque has done this game you can tell he cares a lot. If he's scum and realizes his partner is going down, he's going to bus for cred. What he's doing now actively strips his credibility no matter what.

And then like, his focus hasn't even entirely been on you guys. Actually contrary to both of you, who seem to have very few reads... Hiraki is actually better in this regard, dramonic just seems to focus on his scum team. Menalque has from the start of the game tried to make sense of the entire player list. Go into his ISO and look specifically at his read trajectory on Gamma, try to step into his shoes for a moment and realize, wow, that's a towny trajectory that actually makes a lot of sense even if you don't agree with it. Even this late into D1, he's constantly returning to slots like Gypx or Marashu and reevaluating. Slots that have barely posted enough to be reevaluated. It's a level of effort that is A. not needed or optimal from scum!Menalque and B. just more likely to come from town earnestly wanting to solve the game.

I'm writing all of this because I think it's actually fairly probable that you could both be town. But I'm not sure. One of the major sticking points for me with both of your slots (more dramonic than you Hiraki, to be fair) is your continued insistence that Menalque is this open-wolf scum to the point that you seem to refuse to reevaluate at all. I'm not sure if it's scummy because I've seen far more frustrating plays from town before, but it sure as hell is anti-town.

It's exacerbated by the fact that your reads don't seem to have progressed in 40 pages. I don't get the sense you're really reading Menalque's post or absorbing new information and assimilating that with the reads you decided on page 10.

I don't know, just be a little transparent here? Talk to me? Even if you think I'm scum? Or both of us are scum?

[Dannflor]

I'm honestly pretty ambivalent towards a Jake elimination. I think it gives info and definitely isn't the worst choice

I'm slightly skeeved by the fact that no real counter wagon has sprung up this entire game

But that might be bad logic considering we only have 2 man scum teams instead of one 4 man scum team

[Dannflor]

Yeah that's probably a bad reason to town read Jake off of.

Penguin, is that what you were thinking when you commented on Jake being the only major wagon this game?

[Dannflor]

Penguin, is that what you were thinking when you commented on Jake being the only major wagon this game?

Yep. Still think that a partner would be doing some sort of subtle deflection especially given its mutliball.

Subtle deflection maybe, although I think it's somewhat difficult for a two man scum team to successfully drive up a counter wagon on their own in a game of this size.

I suppose Jake gets some points for his low survivalism. His vote only came out very recently and on Hiraki.

[Dannflor]

I'm honestly pretty ambivalent towards a Jake elimination. I think it gives info and definitely isn't the worst choice

I'm slightly skeeved by the fact that no real counter wagon has sprung up this entire game

But that might be bad logic considering we only have 2 man scum teams instead of one 4 man scum team

"There appears to have been one rising vote magnet: Marashu. I wouldn't call them the counter to myself, but it is interesting to see how they reached 3 votes from execution."

Do you have thoughts on Marashu?

[Dannflor]

Is hiraki a low survivalism vote?

It came out when Hiraki had 0 votes on him.

Granted Hiraki is probably more possible as a last minute flash wagon than other options

[Dannflor]

1274 - only response. why can't we agree to disagree? why do you have to be so annoyed that i won't agree with you on one read to post that slab? i don't care if you don't think my reads haven't "evolved" - i just want to know why you think it's a problem that i scumread someone and the other person gets frustrated because i'm doing so, so now i should go ahead and change MY read because they've tried so hard by moaning and groaning and degrading into memery for me to do something other than change my views?

I'm not necessarily asking you to change your read, just like, maybe engage Menalque with more of an open mind?

To be honest, Dramonic more of who I was addressing, as I think you have at least been trying to get reads on other slots in the meantime, while Dramonic has been tunneled for a good 50 pages.

[Dannflor]

I think that's a bit of a mis-rep.

Menalque has had the slot as mostly a mixed to lean town most of the game and I think largely because he found the reasons for scum reading the slot icky.

[Dannflor]

Saying I'm not reevaluating is inaccurate. "yep, still scum" is a reevaluation ya rude muffin.

Still feels as though you are not evaluating other slots in the game.

Like, you've got your four scum, yes. The chances you are incorrect on multiple of those is pretty high. I don't really see you trying to sort the people on the side.

Maybe you are and I'm just not seeing it behind your blaze of confidence.

[Dannflor]

I think that's a bit of a mis-rep.

Menalque has had the slot as mostly a mixed to lean town most of the game and I think largely because he found the reasons for scum reading the slot icky.

Is this @me?

no that was at dramonic

[Dannflor]

Also, I suppose I can something I was trying to convey with my wall much more concisely.

Basically, I *really* think Menalque is town here.

If you think I am town as well, maybe take that into some consideration. Although I'm not asking you to change your reads just because mine are different.

And I know dramonic thinks I'm scum but I don't really know why I feel like he just calls me that because I defend Menalque and pushed Hiraki at one point

[Dannflor]

are you not claiming

[Dannflor]

dramonis *does* play like this as mafia, or he tries to

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... 4#p9519702 - this is a scum game from dramonic where he has the same sort of self-confident/assertive attitude but he doesn't do a lot of talking about reads. It's mostly spec talk but that might be down to this game being a funky setup.

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... ct[]=11534 - this is another scum game from dramonic that is actually eerily similar in style to this game. He does the "yup I'm voting scum and staying there" schtick from page 5 of the game, and calls out four exact names to be the scum team and sticks with that. However, he's sort of stuck in just calling people scum, and the rest of his posts are fairly empty or fluff posts. It reads like a shallow imitation of what his normal attitude as town is.

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... ct[]=11534 - as town he has the same attitude but tries harder to convince others of his reads. He's a little more cooperative with the playerlist and spends time breaking down what he finds scummy. He keeps the same abrasive attitude but it seems to come more from the perspective of trying to understand the playerlist as well as getting the playerlist to understand his confident reads. This is in contrast to his scum play which I view as closer to just being abrasive for the sake of being abrasive.

All of these games are pretty old (2-3 years) and I could be conf biasing by looking at this. But I *think* this game is closer to his town meta. He's spent enough time explaining his thoughts (even if in a very abrasive way) that I'm not so concerned he's just calling his scum reads scum in order to keep up the town!dramonic facade.

[Dannflor]

Dramonic, I’m not sure what you mean by saying my play is focused around not stepping on any toes. It’s true that I tend to approach conflict more diplomatically than some, that is part of my nature, but if my intention was to stay out of the spotlight I wouldn’t be continually trying to argue with you and Hiraki. Or I would be sheeping Menalque, or something. I’m pushing who I’m pushing at the moment because I believe the center of you and Hiraki and Menalque are all town, and scum is more likely to be at the edges of the game, not wanting to disturb the TvT that’s raged on since the beginning of the game.

[Dannflor]

I also noticed or think I noticed but maybe I'm misremembering that he seemed unusually responsive to criticism or would adjust his play after someone mentioned a scum tell. Kind of like watching someone adapt in real time to people's preferences.

people get annoyed at me in real life because I tend to adjust my wants to fit the wants of others

it's a character flaw

although I'm somewhat trying to use mafia to get better at that + confrontation

[Dannflor]

I could kill Testarossa tbh

[Dannflor]

Sir dramonic has evil radiating from their body. Nothing feels quite right about them, such as their quick retorts that feel less like it would come from a genuine purity, and more of an evil disguising themselves as a purity, as if keeping an old facade up for appearances.

did you get a chance to take a look at the meta I posted?

the quick retorts aren't exactly unusual for dramonic, I'm curious where this read comes from

[Dannflor]

Kill, Dann? That will have to wait until we eliminate someone.

I think Pine has to give out fruit first as well

[Dannflor]

I agree on Gamma town

[Dannflor]

I don't actually have any scum reads in the top half of this game. By top half I mean the top posters if you go to activity overview. I think upwards of Jake is all more likely to be town than not. I would be somewhat wary of that in another game but I think with the amount of (what I suspect to be) TvT conflict in this game it makes sense for scum to be taking more of a back foot. If scum lies within the testarossa/dunnstral/marashu/A50/PP conglomerate, at no point during this day phase have they really been encouraged or forced to do any more than they have done; things have gone their way.

[Dannflor]

it means A50 is closer to Menalque's experience of his scum-game rather than his town-game

[Dannflor]

VOTE: A50

[Dannflor]

I think that Hiraki is undeniably evil."

if you feel that strongly you should spend some more time expanding on that / trying to convince people

[Dannflor]

mena is still just town.

RCE talk about why TH likely town when you get a chance? that slot is currently the top wagon

[Dannflor]

Maybe we can elim scum now

RCEnigma replaces Testarossa.

guess not

you cannot in good faith be expecting people to sheep you this game

[Dannflor]

Feels like a good percentage of this game is very content with this game state.

[Dannflor]

i was talking to dunn, I already know you're not

[Dannflor]

I'll give this game some of my attention tonight

[Dannflor]

if one of those is scum, it's hiraki imo

[Dannflor]

What is the Chemist thing

[Dannflor]

Interesting, why?

Hiraki has been slipping in my reads recently

Dramonic is bordering on my top tier of town reads. I'll case why after I drink some caffeine.

[Dannflor]

Menalque/Chemist

is still town and I'm likely not reconsidering that slot unless I have to at some point. I don't think Menalque loses his cool

in the way he did

this game if he's scum. It didn't benefit him or improve his image with the majority of the playerlist and it wasn't aimed towards a particular agenda of bussing a partner or swinging an elimination somewhere. I don't think Menalque tries as many times as he did to good faith sort/engage Hiraki and Dramonic as he did as scum. It's a much easier path for Menalque to simply paint the uncooperativeness of both those slots as scummy and push that. Instead, Menalque reevaluated both slots up until right before he got replaced. I can't say too much more I haven't already said here.

I'm confused what PP found problematic about this slot? If it was Chemist's entrance I'm interested in that. But unless Chemist takes a severe downturn I'm just not gonna worry about this slot.

I think

Bell

deserves an upper echelon town read as well. He's probably the slot that has most tried to solve / get a better grasp on / activate the game in some way the last several days as the game state as ground to a halt. I don't think his admittedly weak stance on Jake is beneficial for scum!Bell regardless of Jake's alignment. I also think Bell's progression on my slot was realistic and genuine. The initial vote on me I particularly liked because he vocalized something about my posting that every now and then a townie in one of my games latches onto and tunnels me for. Bell cleared the bar of genuinely evaluating my slot when he 180'd, and I like how since then he has been most interested in building a genuine counter wagon to Jake that he believes in.

There's a lot more I could say about this slot and a lot of gut town pings from his posting, but I don't think this take should actually be too unpopular so I won't waste more time on it unless I have to.

Dramonic

is a slightly less confident read than the above two, but I think a lot of his posting doesn't make sense from a scum perspective. There's diminishing returns when it comes to "replicating your abrasive playstyle as scum so people town read you." He's so insistent on certain reads that I think a scum player would have slipped into not holding them as infallible at some point. There's an odd post here and there (like where Dramonic tells PP to read the game) that really feel closer to Dramonic being a town player who just cares a lot about this game over scum who is trying to look town by shouting loud enough. I've struggled to get here because I haven't really gotten along with Dramonic, but I think he matches his town meta more closely than his scum meta as well, and I went over that in another post here.

Unfortunately, that's all I have for strong town reads, which feels pretty bad for a game of this length.

Hiraki and Teacher are the two slots I feel like I should be town reading right now, but I'm not, and that worries me.

I'll continue this later today

[Dannflor]

Oh I might actually think Almost50 is town too?

[Dannflor]

A50, I thought could be town because of his self-vote. It's a very slight read but he didn't really use it to try and get town-cred at all. In fact, in general the way he's been playing hasn't really seemed to be focused on optics at all? Like, even if he wanted to stick with his "I'm not gonna share reads schtick" as scum, I'd imagine he'd try and pretend he was contributing to the game state more than he was

[Dannflor]

and yeah I think dramonic's case about why Jake needs to die is probably right, I've kinda known that for a few days. I don't really believe the slot is exceptionally likelier to flip scum than other slots, but oh well, flipping scum on D1 is overrated anyway

I also wanted to wait until I could finish my reads list but I got busy this weekend and never had the time

Dramonic is town and I'm now of the opinion that Hiraki is pocketing him. And I now wish I helped push through the Hiraki wagon when the pressure was there. I don't know if it's just the game state to blame, but the stuff he's choosing to post is just so incredibly surface level and off that it feels like he's just posting to post and stay afloat with his status in the game. It makes sense, he's not in danger anymore and doesn't really need to do anything to protect himself, especially with dramonic (and me) around. As soon as he stopped being a major point of suspicion it feels like all desire to solve the game stopped. I don't buy that he's just stuck on Jake being scum that hard for that to affect his entire game play.

Uh, PP I slightly town read because of his progression on me and sheeping of my vote when he originally reaplced in which I think is exactly how town PP would approach replacing into a 50 page game. He could be going for a pocket on me quite possibly but he's fit what I'd expect from his town MO this game and he hasn't been afraid to argue with people at all which is bonus points

no one else has really made a significant towny impression on me. Teacher has had his moments but I'm very mixed on that slot.

I thought Gamma's catch up was towny but I want more content with him because he's someone I've misread before.

[Dannflor]

VOTE: Jake E-1

[Dannflor]

Uh, PP I slightly town read because of his progression on me and sheeping of my vote when he originally reaplced in which I think is exactly how town PP would approach replacing into a 50 page game. He could be going for a pocket on me quite possibly but he's fit what I'd expect from his town MO this game and he hasn't been afraid to argue with people at all which is bonus points

I totally would try to pocket you as scum FYI.

yeahhhh I know

I would be little concerned about how little deep wolf paranoia-ing is happening but tbf you never had that in Forest Fire either

[Dannflor]

I have tried to push through I think 3 different wagons now other than Jake this day phase

every single one has lost momentum and I'm starting to think it's not possible because the loudest voices refuse to move from Jake

I'm getting sick of this gamestate and I want it to progress and unfortunately I'm not sure that it does if he doesn't die

[Dannflor]

I would love Marashu

[Dannflor]

VOTE: Marashu

iirc last time I tried this Bell wouldn't vote there and then anyone else off the Jake wagon only wanted to push their own vanity wagons

[Dannflor]

gg

disappointed in the chemist elim but good consolidation on almost50 in the end

[Dannflor]

eh it shouldn't have mattered how you played