Open 789: Two-Fold 2d3 [Game Over]

[Gamma Emerald]

Sup folks

I noticed the playerlist for this game was looking fantastic and I also took an interest in the setup since I played the first-ever 2fold matrix6 so I'm here now

no bulli pls

[Gamma Emerald]

Howdy.

VOTE: Almost50

Claims to be Almost50. Is in truth Beyond50.

Eliminate all liars.

Oh shit did this happen while I was gone? gratz A50 (which now means Already50 I guess)

also looks like this'll be fun with weird role/setup spec questions on page 1

[Gamma Emerald]

hi smile

This pings me.

might agree
who is smile tho?

[Gamma Emerald]

Preliminary reads:

Dannflor
Everyone else
Marashu

Dies this mean you just voted the guy you TR the most, or is this readlist upside down?

It means that I am recognising a truth universally acknowledged, that a single dannflor in possession of his wits, must be in the process of being inevitably TR by Menalque

okay besides sounding like a line from Pride and Prejudice, talk to me about what's up with this comment?

[Gamma Emerald]

I think the billy rep out was scummy af and it’s a hard break to be caught in but *shrug*

what
I mean I don't mind Hiraki getting voted out because he stole the spot I kinda actually wanted (just by virtue of being a replacement during pre-game)
but why is BP's rep out scummy, given it being pregame

side note but my home site kinda settled on yeet for the replacement L-word and we use YELO in place of LYLO (MYLO still works because MisYeet and LOse)

[Gamma Emerald]

It’s serious, as stated

It’s based on the fact that billy is happily playing in multiple other games (no major RL issue) saw his role PM for this game and nope’d the fuck out. I’m pretty sure he’s also on record as saying he prefers playing town > scum, and without being overly arrogant because I think I’d only be a partial factor here, I think there are at least a couple of players here he’d want to play with if he’s got a town role PM

so it seems like this is extrapolation of elli tell

I see it but I'm not feeling great about voting it myself until something comes along to supplement it

[Gamma Emerald]

VC 1.2

Menalque (3) - teacher, Marashu, Hiraki
Testarossa (2) - dramonic, Umlaut
Almost50 (2) - Testarossa, Gypyx
Hiraki (2) - Menalque, Dannflor
TripleHaven (1) - Almost50
Umlaut (1) - TripleHaven

Not voting: Dunnstral, Crush

With 13 alive it takes 7 to exile.

Day 1 will end in (expired on 2020-08-23 18:40:00) or when an exile is reached.

As a friendly reminder, speculating about replacements is considered angleshooting.

went back to read the rules after seeing this post, there's nothing in there explicitly outlawing angleshooting? now if you want to add that I'll stop but honestly I don't see what's wrong with it
my mod policy is "don't blame me if your angleshooting backfires"
which I didn't realize was such a good metaphor until I wrote it out there

[Gamma Emerald]

Considering they just spent 2 pages circle-jerking, I'm not sold.
That and I'm somehow at 5 out of 4, which is an issue.

vote: TripleHaven

Also teacher and marashu, with one of Dann or Menalque, not sure which since they're both spamming banter rn.

why are you explicitly looking for a set number of scumreads
pretty sure the last time I explicitly called out that behavior in a multiball game I correctly pegged scum with it, so this probably is a scumtell, and it seems based on stuff I've seen in the post preview window others might agree

[Gamma Emerald]

yeah my memory served me right

I called not mafia out for that in a fire and ice game and he turned out to be scum as I suspected

[Gamma Emerald]

I'm still not stuttering

it's shameful that from past experience this is just how Hiraki is
stubbornly unable to see past his own mindset

[Gamma Emerald]

Yo Dann, teacher, haven, dunn — this feels like I’m being dealt with in very bad faith, but I find it hard to judge when I’m the one someone is aiming at

Do you think that’s accurate to what’s happening or am I reading too much into this?

based on prior experience yes I'd say Hiraki is interacting in bad faith, but it's not because he's scum, just because he can't process that it seems forced

because

it's a joke
Like yes he can be scum but not for that

[Gamma Emerald]

Actually it's multiball, so dann/menal could be opposing scum. EXCITING PROSPECTS!

EDIT: ...Why?

this falls so flat tone-wise

[Gamma Emerald]

here's a list of game's i've opened "hi smile" in
https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/th ... ost4057419

https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/th ... ost3954031

https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/th ... ost3954038

I was scum in 1 and town in the other 2
it's insanely NAI outside of these facts but whatever

okay so scratch my idea that the opening was scummy
I thought smile could be a specific player but it's just how this person comes in with their first post, like what LUV does

[Gamma Emerald]

{In post 157, Menalque wrote:
I have no idea what you’re getting at with the whole dictionary thing}
I found it! Overreaction!!

this is stupid

like why did you do this whole charade about "looking it up" when you clearly knew the word
what did you expect to get out of it

also I see you in the post preview window buddy, I'm not scared of you

[Gamma Emerald]

VOTE: Hiraki

I don't actually think much of the meta argument given but his stance toward Menalque has just been terrible.

it's not really scummy though imo
just not getting the point

[Gamma Emerald]

like why did you do this whole charade about "looking it up" when you clearly knew the word
what did you expect to get out of it

don't you know me by now?

for the lols then I guess
talk about forced

[Gamma Emerald]

Right - you get you’re saying the same thing? Like, dann’s read is lazy because you DO know how to backdown with poise if you needed to? So you can’t be scum because you’d be better as scum?

I'm mildly lost on this, help
I think you jumped one too many tiers of play for me to follow you this early

[Gamma Emerald]

You're saying it wasn't a hard scum read now, is that the case?

you are a fucking comedian

being a dick when people genuinely try to ask you questions isn't a way to avoid a long walk off a short pier

[Gamma Emerald]

I mean by now my read has evolved

I now think you're scum that has been "caught for the wrong reasons" and that's why you're so frustrated. Of course, a townie can get mad for getting scum read for shit reasons too, but they usually try to sort the people scum reading them as well. The aggression feels like a mask for your alignment.

I just think hiraki doesn't know when to stop acting like an asshole

maybe I'm wrong and this is him acting in earnest, in which case I'm very upset this is his "normal" form of interacting with people

[Gamma Emerald]

also if this is him just interacting normally I do think that lends credence to what Dann said

[Gamma Emerald]

Is it just the semantics argument about it painting as a "hard push"?

Have you ever felt that someone was pushing hard on you after saying you were scum four times without ever showing any proof on Page 5 of the game? Also there is legitimately nothing that would make you scum and you've even said this in the thread but the

hard

push was so

hard

that it was scummy.

There is no semantics issue here. It's an overreaction to nothing. It's scum paranoia.

Okay I can actually get this

and yeah from what I'm seeing in the post preview window I'm right about what Hiraki was doing

[Gamma Emerald]

Why would you think that Dram, who is scummy, would give out correct reads?

has Menalque answered this
I wanna chime in if he has

[Gamma Emerald]

Bets are open about how many appeals to the crowd we'll get from Menalque before she flips scum

You can still get your money in teach!

Oddly, when I missed Mena's meta-angle case on Hiraki, my thought was that the overescalation was scum theater between the two of them. But I dont think he makes that detailed case on a partner. Nor do I think gives me a hard town read rn as scum. My playstyle (at least historically) often led to day 2/3 suspicions forming a consensus on me as null-scum, and thus a simple push to save for later/leaver yourself open to. The post as a whole didnt feel planned/pockety, so for today at least Im not suspicious of him (I have too much respect for his scum game to take a harder stance than that.)

okay how was the meta thing mena posted detailed at all
the only meta I recall was the replace out stuff, which a) wasn't even dealing with Hiraki, but BP, and b) boiled down to elli tell/RWSTFO, not really what I'd call detailed
nevertheless A for effort, despite that confusing me I like the thought shown in this post

[Gamma Emerald]

okay I just figured out how "meta" got involved, menalque wasn't commenting on Hiraki's meta in particular at all. He was talking about Hiraki being behind on site meta, i.e. how certain plays and behaviors are viewed by the general playerbase

[Gamma Emerald]

I feel like Mena's been looking at meta a lot this game, moreso than the one other game I played with Mena.

Hi marashu, where do you think I’ve been looking a lot at meta this game?

Your initial read on Hiraki was meta, but because that has been redacted so is this one. 394 has you looking at meta to invalidate reads. I thought I remembered more, but the only other case is with teacher, which teacher brought up first. So I take it back - I remember being surprised at 394 and also remembered your read on Hiraki, which is probably why I felt that way.

PEdit - @Gamma, 271

nice

So like, obviously scum has to find the other team to avoid a tie/kingmaker/happy-ever-after situation, but that does NOT mean they have to be honest about what their reads are, given that they can just shoot players they think are on the opposite team if that's how they want to play. There's probably a degree of honesty to any scum's reads, but it's warped to fit their agenda

[Gamma Emerald]

I don't particularly scumread this but I understand where you're coming from. I certainly did notice it, just became annoying.

Intentional or not this is ironic as hell

[Gamma Emerald]

(I have too much respect for his scum game to take a harder stance than that.)

OOF
My kingdom for a dayvig

no

that's actually a very reasonable thought to have, rather than be cocksure about menalque being town, teacher understands menalque's skill as scum and is thus providing a grain of salt for any townread he has on menalque

[Gamma Emerald]

... he's calling you an idiot.
And im not literally threatened I was just responding to "ask dunn how that turns out"

VI exists for a reason :fp:

[Gamma Emerald]

no - you are not missing anything and the fact that you think calling him scum 4 times is "baiting" him into a scumreading me for doing so is just why i don't think it's worth talking to you anymore.

please read the entire post if you want to understand the two people and how they come into play. i just did it and i got annoyed because i was being babyish. i'm not explaining it. your hint is that it's clearly melanque and me and i don't know how i have to explain more than that

okay I think I understand why Hiraki first responded to me the way he did
he didn't want me muckraking the situation and putting him back into that mood he was in before

[Gamma Emerald]

It’s been a minute for that one. Glad we keep the literal geriatrics around for the reminders. Good memories.

that's...not that old of a song?

I understand Daft Punk have been around for a decent amount of time but I wouldn't expect them to play on an oldies station

itt I get suddenly sidetracked by music

[Gamma Emerald]

i didn't think you would tbh, just hoped you would find the same read on melanque. sad!

I think I actually do agree, and if I didn't have someone else I wanted to vote more I'd probably vote him when my catch-up wraps up
(yes I do already have someone I want to vote more)

also I'm pretty solidly thinking you're town now fwiw

[Gamma Emerald]

dramonic does not believe in such petty and useless things as "sorting people" or "playing mafia"

Scumteam A:
TripleHaven
Menalque

Scumteam B:
Dann
Teacher

Town:
The rest


There, sorted. Can we stop trolling around yet?

@umlaut: asking for people's opinion without actively broadcasting your own is an illusion of content and a poor man's excuse to not put themselves in the spotlight.
And yes, I am always like this

yawn

[Gamma Emerald]

no sorry i sort of agree with teacher there dram, you could always have 5 scum. you'd just be wrong about someone

then again...10 years...

thank you

[Gamma Emerald]

could someone who isn't in dramonic's scum list ask dramonic for the "why" behind his reads please and thank you

ok
dramonic why are your (scum)reads the way they are

[Gamma Emerald]

no sorry i sort of agree with teacher there dram, you could always have 5 scum. you'd just be wrong about someone

then again...10 years...

Of course I can be wrong, I'm not the mod, but I gotta work with what information I have right now, and that information is two blatant scum and two players whose posts are almost as numerous as they are vapid.

I would mostly not try to lynch teacher or dann today, even if they are scumreads right now, because the reasoning for their scumminess is not as sound as the one for Triple/Mena (there are empty shells of townies out there and PoE without a full playerlist is beyond shaky), but someone has to fill the mantle of scum #3 and #4 and I've no active suspicions elsewhere currently.

To be clear, just because I'm saying someone is town doesn't mean I'm not reading their posts, I will gladly reevaluate when new information surfaces.

nope

[Gamma Emerald]

Can you explain the Dram read? I agree he's being weird but I don't see the scum angle.

He just like, hasn’t felt meaningfully scumhunty to me? Like, my definition of scumhunting doesn’t include “pick 4 names and loudly shout that they’re scum”

Idk, I’m mulling it over in light of him finally having come up with reasoning for why haven is scum. I don’t think I’m very persuaded by it at a glance, but I’m thinking about whether this is just a thing of join date rather than scum

I guess the confounding factor is that hiraki has a simile join date, is playing in a similar way, but I do think is actively scum. I guess I’m working through whether it makes sense for dram to have simile takes to hiraki!scum if he’s town?

similar takes don't really mean much I think
but like, Hiraki is town too so you've already got the wrong equation written out, it's just a matter of how far from the right answer you end up being
also I think someone commented that this was really close to finding the actually issue with dram and I agree

[Gamma Emerald]

Him flipping scum feels too good to be true

Why?

It's almost too easy
their reaction to their wagon has been terrible
their tone is general is bad

maybe read the part where they mentioned getting into a bad state of mind lol

[Gamma Emerald]

I don’t really think hiraki coming across as a dick is AI, even though I do find it unpleasant

I think it’s much more that his reasons for scumreading me were fabricated and then changed under interrogation

no they actually check out
you're just not woke enough to accept it

[Gamma Emerald]

Honestly I kinda like Dramonic. They are at least producing content/providing reasoning behind reads (hey, Hiraki, any time you want to hit up 295 that would be grand). While I disagree with their takes, I can see the reasoning and I like the different perspective. I also dont really feel like they're misrepping.

I have to question this reasoning you're seeing, dram has reasons for some of her reads but I think some of those reasons are just, like, not okay?

[Gamma Emerald]

Was testa scum or town in that game?

I'd think this obvious
this is why Thor665 has the thing that he does in his signature. People getting too caught up in second guessing this sort of obvious stuff

PEdit: sorry but your avatar just makes me think you're a she
it's too cute I'm sorry

[Gamma Emerald]

okay I just figured out how "meta" got involved, menalque wasn't commenting on Hiraki's meta in particular at all. He was talking about Hiraki being behind on site meta, i.e. how certain plays and behaviors are viewed by the general playerbase

scratch this

I took a much more recent post than I should have for this

[Gamma Emerald]

You don't get to be scum and say "oh it's my meta, I have immunity!" ya funny lad

X

[Gamma Emerald]

It is frightening how little some of you differentiate between intent and content. Just saying.

How is this relevant

It's relevant cuz you havent been lynched yet.

@teach: at work, will respond on break

zzzzzz
actually didn't you say you weren't engaging with scumreads? What are you doing with teacher then?

[Gamma Emerald]

Okay why do you consider that important/best done through keeping your reads to yourself?

Do you have a better way of protecting your own Townreads from the NKs?

I don't fully remember you being this egotistical? I remember similar stuff to this, but not quite this exact behavior, albeit that's mostly just time away
like you're not the only person with townreads, I don't think one persons reads are going to sway scum that hard

[Gamma Emerald]

But more importantly: Why would you care whom I TR anyway? What's it to you? You should only care about whom I'm SRing and why. No?

What???

this is super obtuse, even for you. Why would someone

only

care about your SRs? Is this some advanced shading method?

[Gamma Emerald]

It is frightening how little some of you differentiate between intent and content. Just saying.

How is this relevant

It's relevant cuz you havent been lynched yet.

@teach: at work, will respond on break

zzzzzz
actually didn't you say you weren't engaging with scumreads? What are you doing with teacher then?

I'm having second thoughts about teach. I said that actually.

okay then

[Gamma Emerald]

The moral of that story is kill it with fire before it can kill the town.

Edit: one is her scumbuddy

this view is super duper basic
could also be opposite scum just arguing in bad faith

in fact it's not just "super duper basic", it's downright scummy
I'll get into why once I cast my vote, which will come with a summary of what strikes me as the scummiest parts of what dramonic has done

[Gamma Emerald]

Okay I'm caught up now so I'll throw out my vote
VOTE: dramonic
now for the why, there's a whole lot I could probably get into but 2 posts deserve immediate mention.

no sorry i sort of agree with teacher there dram, you could always have 5 scum. you'd just be wrong about someone

then again...10 years...

Of course I can be wrong, I'm not the mod, but I gotta work with what information I have right now, and that information is two blatant scum and two players whose posts are almost as numerous as they are vapid.

I would mostly not try to lynch teacher or dann today, even if they are scumreads right now, because the reasoning for their scumminess is not as sound as the one for Triple/Mena (there are empty shells of townies out there and PoE without a full playerlist is beyond shaky), but someone has to fill the mantle of scum #3 and #4 and I've no active suspicions elsewhere currently.

To be clear, just because I'm saying someone is town doesn't mean I'm not reading their posts, I will gladly reevaluate when new information surfaces.

This is just not how town scumhunts at all? No one should have to "fill the mantle" of scumread spots. This isn't genuine sorting, it's manufactured cookie-cutter sorting. The exact thing I called Not_Mafia out for in a past multiball mini open (Fire and Ice setup), where he ended up flipping scum. So I have history of catching scum with this.

The moral of that story is kill it with fire before it can kill the town.

Edit: one is her scumbuddy

In addition, I've seen this "they're X person's scumbuddy" comment a few times from dramonic, and it's not good either. It speaks to a mindset of only really hunting for one team, which is what scum would be doing. Pretty sure Dunnstral also caught onto this somewhat, though he opted to vote teacher instead.

[Gamma Emerald]

explain this - i agree pretty hard with what dram is saying here

it's not that hard to understand? Hiraki wasn't talking about his meta at all there
site meta is essentially how the site views certain plays or whatever, things such as "Eliminate all lurkers" and such.

also, well f*** you too
(not really that mad, just don't know why you decided to go for a cheap shot and feel kinda hurt)

[Gamma Emerald]

This is just not how town scumhunts at all? No one should have to "fill the mantle" of scumread spots.

You're just wrong here.

In case you missed it (I know you didn't), it's multiball, there's a second scumteam that needs to be caught here and pretending it doesn't exist doesn't make that happen. That's like playing a game with a third party, catching that third party and saying "my work here is done"

yes there's a second scumteam but you're literally just calling people scum to check boxes, like wtf is that supposed to serve

[Gamma Emerald]

to expand, I've never really seen town take such a tack of ensuring they have X amount of reads

I'm not the foolish newbie I was in Family Mafia, I understand that town have have variable amounts of scumread, townreads, and/or nullreads and it's a natural thing. Explicitly aiming for 4 scumreads, and arbitrarily (afaict from what I caught onto catching up) splitting them into two teams, super early into D1? That does NOT read natural to me.

[Gamma Emerald]

I "assume" such because you've literally been playing the way I am saying you are. Why was 5/4 such a bad thing, huh??? If you were telling the truth right now that wouldn't have been an issue for you earlier, because you don't need to be specific about your reads. Unless, of course, you're faking it and need to construct a narrative to look more believable.

You wanna know what engaging with scumreads does? it allows you to bury them when they can't come up with a good lie to explain away your suspicions.

[Gamma Emerald]

I think I see what you mean on Menalque, though I was already suspecting him a bit (that also answers your question to an extent). As for 5/4 leading to an ML, not if you're lucky/able to sniff out the proper reads.

[Gamma Emerald]

Hi

I kinda think you rolled scum this game

[Gamma Emerald]

Okay do you wanna talk about why that is

I think Hiraki’s thought about you overreacting is very valid in a way, you did seem to freak out at his read
Like the fact you seemed to think he was sure of that read tells me he might have been onto something. Perception is reality in a way, and what you think others think of you is very important. You essentially made it evident that you were concerned about being scumread a little more than I think you or any player should at that point.

[Gamma Emerald]

You townreading hiraki and scumreading dram doesn’t make sense to me

My Hiraki read is based on experience (meta in other words), so you’re probably just not in the loop there. So why do you think my dram read doesn’t make sense?

[Gamma Emerald]

what do you think was overreacting? me calling it a hardpush or something else?

I also didn't think he was sure of that read, I doubted that read could exist that strongly in a world where hiraki was town and wanted to interrogate him about it

Yeah, the calling it a hardpush

I feel like you responded that way because as scum you have to take suspicions towards you seriously

[Gamma Emerald]

There’s also his approach to me, but I’m waiting on him to go into more depth there

But like I didn’t like the fact that he came in, was basically agreeing with me on hiraki, but then shifted that round gradually to the point where I was being presented as the scummy one in the interaction. But then instead of pressing that point, he switched onto dram and focused his energies there

It’s a confounding factor that there are two scumteams so maaaaybe he thinks I’m on one and dram is on the other. But it felt a lot like a way to avoid me/discredit my takes without having to actually commit very hard to the read on me or confront me directly

This is not exactly the case. I never really scumread Hiraki, there was only one point where I really even started entertaining that thought. All I did was talk about how I wasn’t okay with his interactions at the time. I’ll admit my scumread on Menalque did form rather nebulously around the time I started actually townreading Hiraki so I can understand arguments about convenient reads, but tbh I think if I wanted to divert attention from Hiraki I just push Menalque? Pretty sure a wider range of people have expressed suspicion of him. Meanwhile aorn the only other person really on board with the dram vote is Haven. I don’t intend to beat this point to death but figured it should be mentioned.
As for the dram read it started around the 5/4 post, and was cemented in the post that talked about having to find extra scumreads just to fill scumread slots

Also, I think I might have forgotten to engage this point time of, or I just stopped posting before then, but: having the same amount of scumreads as there are scum in the game doesn’t prevent mis-elims? Honestly the mindset being shown here is one that just makes no sense in any way, because it seems dram believes that all eliminations happen at the same time, as otherwise why would having 5 scumreads mean a guaranteed mis-elim?
If I wanted to get reachy I’d say this was an indicator of having a nightkill as that’s a way to handle “scumreads” with relative confidence they’ll be taken out of the game.

[Gamma Emerald]

You townreading hiraki and scumreading dram doesn’t make sense to me

My Hiraki read is based on experience (meta in other words), so you’re probably just not in the loop there. So why do you think my dram read doesn’t make sense?

meta with hiraki?

I think that dram's like, insane overconfidence in his reads for things that I think are NAI or ambiguous is similar to hiraki's take on me being scum

what I think is different is that I think that when he went further into his read on triple is that I think he does genuinely have the reads he's talking about, and that he's interested in the game beyond me/triple and the other slots. I don't see that in hiraki -- his entire game approach seems to have been about this and me!scum and he doesn't seem interested in sorting beyond that

I can see what you’re saying about reads, but here’s where we diverge in thought. For dramonic, yes I think some of her reads might be genuine, namely the TH read on the one on you. However, that doesn’t mute out the fact the rest of her scumhunting doesn’t come off as genuine. Plus the “they’re a scumbuddy” thing, though I’ll have to double-check, hasn’t really been explained in any meaningful capacity since I recall it being used in a situation not relating to TH + Menalque
As for Hiraki, yes I have meta on him that I’m using, mainly to understand his personality and how he plays. While I would like him to give more reads on the other players, that doesn’t detract from how towny his approach to certain interactions has been, at least not enough to make me doubt my read. Also he at least has indicated what amounts to a dramonic townread, via disagreeing with me voting there.

[Gamma Emerald]

Gamma, why isn't it towny to sort down to a known number of scum?

If it were done in a way that didn’t look like checking of boxes I would not have scumread it
Aiming to have X amount of scumreads isn’t scummy, but explicitly forcing reads for it is imo

[Gamma Emerald]

like you're not the only person with townreads, I don't think one persons reads are going to sway scum that hard

Gamma: There are two ways I can protect my

own

townreads. One is to hide them. the other is to mildly shade them (enough to discourage the NK on them but not enough to actually wagon them). In MB games the latter is still a risky tactic because of "power distribution". One scum side may decide to go for a push on said TR (that I shaded) and the other may join them (not knowing that they are the other scum team) and then a wagon would still build on them, and if resisted they'd become a prime NK target. (In single ball it's less dangerous because it's almost never the case that the whole scum team would be on the miss-elimination).

Also, consider this: If I am a PR; I don't want to reveal whom I might be targeting tonight (regardless of whether I am an investigative or a protective). If I am not a PR; I still want to appear like one so that -hopefully- I might eat a bullet for the team.

Capisce?

Yeah this makes more sense

But more importantly: Why would you care whom I TR anyway? What's it to you? You should only care about whom I'm SRing and why. No?

What???

this is super obtuse, even for you. Why would someone

only

care about your SRs? Is this some advanced shading method?

Because that's whom I want to eliminate. My TR on someone isn't even going to stop anyone else from FoSing them (or more). You seem to have forgotten how I play. I want to see where YOU (plural) are pushing and why. I want to see who noticed something and who didn't. Come on. Did you lose you booklet on "A50 playstyle, methods and tricks"?

It would still be good to have an idea of who you’re TRing to keep in mind for later, for consistency and such. And maybe your TR would convince someone, you can’t just not try, though as long as the person in question isn’t widely suspected you don’t really have to make that effort, though that’s another reason you should state them, that way if you do make a stand like that it’s not coming out of nowhere (this comes off a bit like coaching, so let me just give an aside that I don’t think I would ever need to coach A50 on how to play).
Also, that “advanced shading method” comment was because I thought you might have been driving at TH being scum and thus only being concerned about whether someone was scumreading him

And yeah I didn’t really pack my booklet on you, though that’s because I’ve been away for long enough that I thought there was a chance your meta might have changed. Has it at all?

[Gamma Emerald]

re 597

"I never really scumread Hiraki, there was only one point where I really even started entertaining that thought. All I did was talk about how I wasn’t okay with his interactions at the time."

what does this mean? I don't get what you mean by (1) I wasn't scumreading him and (2) I wasn't okay with his interactions at the time

"but tbh I think if I wanted to divert attention from Hiraki I just push Menalque? Pretty sure a wider range of people have expressed suspicion of him"

yeah I did have this thought, and I'm considering it. I'm not sure if, even given dram and hiraki calling me scum, you necessarily think that I'm a good option for a push if you're scum and you think I'm town.

**

I'll have another look at your entry posts, I certainly felt like you were scumreading or implying a scumread on hiraki and that's straight up exactly what I was expecting the crush slot to do if it were scum with hiraki. enter saying hmm, yeah, I see how this guy can be scummy. but oh no, wait, actually they're okay after all. I wasn't sure if I'd be pushed as part of that, but the recognition that the posts were Bad(tm) only to shift to a townread is like, a very partner-y trajectory imo

My thoughts on Hiraki early on we’re a sort of “prodigal son” view on his posts. I didn’t distrust him, I was just hoping he’d back off the jerkass act because I felt like he could do better. Once he affirmed my POV, that’s when I really started to townread him. Up until then I had him at about null, maybe leaning a little town.

[Gamma Emerald]

While we're here discussing my super special lack of reads beyond 4 scum{tm)

I can't believe I was tricked by this evil scum called dramonic, but here he is scumslipping. He opened it with { but closed it with ), which is something I have once caught scum doing, so he must be scum.

@Gamma: Sorry for the bad joke, but this is how I see your argument comparing dram's play to N_M's play. But feel free to continue your push there.

On another note: See what I mean? dram is like the only player I had explicitly stated a TR on, and that didn't stop you from pushing him, did it? There is literally no point in me outing my other TRs at this time.

I don’t see how that one example proves your point. I don’t think your townread on dram really did anything to counteract the concerns I had. If your townread reasoning were more in conflict with my scumread reasoning then it would likely have more effect.

[Gamma Emerald]

what do you mean by "My thoughts on Hiraki early on we’re a sort of “prodigal son” view on his posts."?

I was mostly disappointed in his play, because I felt like he could interact in a positive way and I wasn’t seeing that at the time

and what do you mean by "Once he affirmed my POV, that’s when I really started to townread him."?

When he mentioned having to get out of the mindset he was in and he starting engaging more earnestly, I was essentially told “yes, your read on the situation was RIGHT” and between having correctly identified Hiraki’s thought process and him towning up a little I started to feel good about him being town.

I am a little concerned by how you’re not really trying to parse my meaning at all? It’s just “what does this mean” a whole bunch. Doesn’t make me think you’re really trying to understand what I’m saying.

[Gamma Emerald]

t's not that hard to understand? Hiraki wasn't talking about his meta at all there
site meta is essentially how the site views certain plays or whatever, things such as "Eliminate all lurkers" and such.

that's not what melanque is saying

I *do* think you’re playing to an outdated site meta which is leading you to bad reads, and it’s not the same thing. I’ve also seen it before first hand with a scumbuddy of mine a couple of games ago where he was in PT like “idgi why are people scumreading me, this is literally my town meta??” and it was just because the site had moved on a lot in play from when he was active

he's saying that because we're old, we're outdated and people have developed new scumtells that might've incriminated people in an "older" playstyle. that is site meta. unless i am assuming incorrectly you used my name rather than melanque's

Yeah I used the wrong name
Though I also was just responding to the wrong thing in general with that

[Gamma Emerald]

Wait no now I confused myself again

[Gamma Emerald]

That WAS the right response (minus the name), I just didn’t remember which post it was and thought was from when teacher said Menalque had a “detailed meta case” on Hiraki and I was counter pointing that

[Gamma Emerald]

You townreading hiraki and scumreading dram doesn’t make sense to me

My Hiraki read is based on experience (meta in other words), so you’re probably just not in the loop there. So why do you think my dram read doesn’t make sense?

meta with hiraki?

I think that dram's like, insane overconfidence in his reads for things that I think are NAI or ambiguous is similar to hiraki's take on me being scum

what I think is different is that I think that when he went further into his read on triple is that I think he does genuinely have the reads he's talking about, and that he's interested in the game beyond me/triple and the other slots. I don't see that in hiraki -- his entire game approach seems to have been about this and me!scum and he doesn't seem interested in sorting beyond that

I can see what you’re saying about reads, but here’s where we diverge in thought.

(1) For dramonic, yes I think some of her reads might be genuine, namely the TH read on the one on you. However, that doesn’t mute out the fact the rest of her scumhunting doesn’t come off as genuine.

Plus the “they’re a scumbuddy” thing, though I’ll have to double-check, hasn’t really been explained in any meaningful capacity since I recall it being used in a situation not relating to TH + Menalque
As for Hiraki,

(2) yes I have meta on him that I’m using, mainly to understand his personality and how he plays.

While I would like him to give more reads on the other players,

(3) that doesn’t detract from how towny his approach to certain interactions has been

, at least not enough to make me doubt my read. Also he at least has indicated what amounts to a dramonic townread, via disagreeing with me voting there.

(1) why is the scum hunting not genuine besides having a weird process that he should stick to having as many scumreads as there are scum? like yes, I think that's a slightly flawed process, but I don't think it's scummy -- I use something similar which is to try to limit my scumreads to the number of scum + 50% (so here 6 scumreads would be my max) because otherwise you start spiralling into paranoia etc

(2) okay, where from? and is it direct meta or meta from you reading a game that he was in?

(3) okay, can you point more clearly to where this was and why his approach to certain interactions was towny?

1) it’s not that he’s limiting himself that really pings me, it’s the inclusion of scumreads in his 4 for no other apparent reason than that he needed 2 extra scumreads. Yes the limiting did ping me initially but it’s not the entire reason for the scumread, it’s not even really a major point outside of leading up to the thing I

do

find scummy. I feel like a lot of people have responded to me saying this same thing, so I’m pretty sure one of them is dram’s partner arguing in bad faith. As for the full why, my sense is that he doesn’t want to look like his scumhunting is half-baked so he attempted to fill out a full 4 scumreads. As I see it, it’s a way of deflecting certain accusations about only hunting one team.

[Gamma Emerald]

I accidentally posted that early

My meta on Hiraki is direct. It’s not really based on a specific game, just past experiences with him in general.
And for the interactions I find towny, it’s how he readjusted his interactions with teacher and Dann, and his interactions before and after that. It doesn’t come off as trying to back off at all, more trying to recalibrate and start speaking with a more level head. Before that point, he had some frustration that looks rather towny regarding having to repeat himself, which manifested as his jackass act that I wasn’t pleased with. Once he adjusted his mindset, he started actually reasoning with attempts to understand him. It adds up to a picture of a townie who was upset about getting asked the same questions, but upon reflection realized they weren’t helping the matter and opting to try and guide those who didn’t understand.

[Gamma Emerald]

Oh, you think my scumreads on people outside THalque aren't genuine. Way to muddle your actual problem.

Well yes that’s part of the issue but I think you faked confidence in order to have 4 scumreads

[Gamma Emerald]

im confused what you see differently then

I think I'm actually on the same page with how that Mena post is being interpreted now

I still want teacher to explain his earlier thing though

[Gamma Emerald]

it's pretty easy to slap a few town reads on people as scum

openly admitting to having basically 1 real read isn't something scum really needs to do, it reads genuine to me

Nah, I disagree, I think town mostly come to at least a few reads naturally

I’m p sure I see the “huh I just don’t have reads this game idk” come from scum more than town

I'm also not that fast at forming reads most of the time, at least these days

as for whether scum would do this, it would most likely be a way to feign natural reads. Scum can obviously produce fake reads at any time, so I'd say that lack of reads would generally lean town. Also wrt a term for this, maybe "feigned doubt"?

[Gamma Emerald]

... Is there a word for fake lack-of-confidence?

I answered this thinking it was about something else lol

is me just missing what things are referring to just going to be the thing for me this game

[Gamma Emerald]

... Is there a word for fake lack-of-confidence?

it's called hedging but I don't think that's what menalque is trying to do here

okay lol I'm out of it if I forgot what hedging is

[Gamma Emerald]

Ugh I shouldn't have signed up for another game, I thought I'd be more engaged this time but I'm just endlessly playing catchup

(Which I am about to do now)

2 + 2 = 4 - 1 = 3

On a completely unrelated note, I hate the way this is written.

quick maths

you see I was going to post this myself but you beat me to the punch
(that is a good song tho)

[Gamma Emerald]

I am a little concerned by how you’re not really trying to parse my meaning at all? It’s just “what does this mean” a whole bunch. Doesn’t make me think you’re really trying to understand what I’m saying.

Ftr, i object to this characterisation, I’m trying, failing to do so at points because what you’ve said is unclear to me, and seeking clarification

Like I don’t think it’s reasonable at all to expect me to understand what you meant by “he’s like a prodigal son sort of” and think that if I had taken a guess as to what you meant, it would always have been ambiguous and likely would have led to miscommunication

This feels like straight shade, honestly

it's more a reaction to how you phrase your questions, not the questions themselves
there's no signs you're actually comprehending anything I say

[Gamma Emerald]

im confused what you see differently then

I think I'm actually on the same page with how that Mena post is being interpreted now

I still want teacher to explain his earlier thing though

Not sure what you were looking for - call it out?

what "detailed meta case" did Menalque have on Hiraki?

[Gamma Emerald]

I can’t deal with anything more today so I’ll put off reading to tomorrow

[Gamma Emerald]

Sorry about my absence
Some other stuff caught my fancy for the past few days.

Will read (maybe) soon

[Gamma Emerald]

That would also happen if you voted out Penguin :susseyes:

[Gamma Emerald]

Why would we not

keep in mind I still need to read

[Gamma Emerald]

I mean you're suggesting we eliminate someone when they could be goodie, that sounds pretty scummy to me

So could Jake :omegalul:

[Gamma Emerald]

@Gamma:
Sorry, if I just missed it while catching up, what is your take on Dann and teacher, if you are town on Hiraki? Or are you only wary about Mena on those, that are pushing him?

Teacher is a townread
Dann is eh

[Gamma Emerald]

Tbf this is a little confused because I’m not sure how much big a threat scum!gamma sees me as town.

But I wouldn’t know you’re town as scum

Honestly this reads as a genuine townslip

[Gamma Emerald]

Christ that is fast replacement

what

[Gamma Emerald]

I think that's a bit of a mis-rep.

Menalque has had the slot as mostly a mixed to lean town most of the game and I think largely because he found the reasons for scum reading the slot icky.

Is this @me?

[Gamma Emerald]

Only half way mena. I kind of agree with Dann here.
Initial read has haven as townish again.
You seem like a carbon copy of all the games i’ve played with you.
I think this is a corner scum game. But I don’t think i’ve Seen you take pot shots there yet, why?

Uh what is this all about

Dramonic is weird to me. Half the time he has a townie mindset. The other half he seems to be full of shit. But I don’t know what the shit is for.

This however, I’m interested in talking with you about. How are you feeling about dram at this point?

Btw how much mafia exp do you have?

[Gamma Emerald]

VC 1.10

Jake The Wolfie (4) - Almost50, dramonic, Hiraki, Testarossa [E-3]
Hiraki (2) - Menalque, Bell
teacher (2) - Marashu, Dunnstral
Dunnstral (2) - teacher, Dannflor
dramonic (1) - Gamma Emerald

Not voting: Gypyx, Jake The Wolfie

With 13 alive it takes 7 to exile.

Day 1 will end in (expired on 2020-08-23 18:40:00) or when an exile is reached.

Dannflor is V/LA until Saturday sometime.

(This is for my convenience, and is not a mod-approved vote count.)

Jake sorts out a few things first.

UNVOTE:

"I don't partake in my vote lingering on someone for whom I don't have strong feelings about one way or the other. I can understand all 4 votes on me however. Could the four fine and lovely people voting me detail an explanation for voting this body? Optionally, could everyone else explain their votes on who they chose? Be a doll and do it for me, thanks."

Jake is seen flipping through a notebook, with the title

[OPEN 789 TRANSCRIPT]

on the cover, in big, bolded letters.

[Gamma Emerald]

I think jake is town

Why

What specifically in Jake’s posting made you think he was town
In fact I feel like a couple things he posted were a little questionable

[Gamma Emerald]

Okay, what understandable reasons?

Jake twirled around a brimstone cane he was holding

"Well, if we take it that Hiraki is town, then to be accused as scum for something out of their control, Billy Pilgrim, would make them reasonably uncooperative, because there is an endless stream of reasons why Billy decided to be replaced, and to assume that it was because they were evil would make Hiraki, their replacement, almost definitely upset. Even if Hiraki was evil themselves, to be caught for these reasons to still be expected. However, a Hiraki that is town would have reason to separate themselves from others, as they have proven themselves to be untrustworthy to themselves. It seems that Hiraki feels like everyone else has burned their bridges with them, so with all of this considered, I find it reasonable to see that Hiraki would isolate themselves."

Is the horrible grammar intentional?

[Gamma Emerald]

I feel kinda bad because I think I am actively marginalising dram, but I don’t really see any other options here?

Why does this feel like scum goo (borrowing this term from Flavor Leaf)

[Gamma Emerald]

If I were a gimmick account I would fall and die on that sword.
You have more experience than me so i’ll take that under consideration. But that’s not a life changing take for me.

Yeah my take on Jake is he always does this, he just seems the type of person to do it.

Also I’m def townreading Bell from what I’ve seen of them so far

Also I’m getting bored so I’ll probably hold the rest of my catch up for later

Was considering lobbying against current wagons but with how Jake has acted so far in my catch-up I’m not feeling that anymore

[Gamma Emerald]

I probably would have been very bad if I’d stayed in