Open 789: Two-Fold 2d3 [Game Over]

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Boop

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VOTE: TripleHaven

As you can tell, I didn't read the OP

Bad practice

VOTE: TripleHaven

This is very rude, triple haven is great and we want to keep her

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Also, as always, hello to all those I don’t know, and nice to see those I do!

Also also, dannflor must die

VOTE: dannflor

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Preliminary reads:

Dannflor
Everyone else
Marashu

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Please god tell me that this entire PL is not on US time

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Preliminary reads:

Dannflor
Everyone else
Marashu

Dies this mean you just voted the guy you TR the most, or is this readlist upside down?

It means that I am recognising a truth universally acknowledged, that a single dannflor in possession of his wits, must be in the process of being inevitably TR by Menalque

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Please god tell me that this entire PL is not on US time

You know "I ain't no American" (although my time schedule is so messy I can assure you no person on this planet can tell where I'm from based on that alone)

Actually, I did not know this! I thought you were maybe but your time zone does tend to leave me endlessly confused

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Not in the US, but sharing a time zone with them.

Oh cool, north or south?

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Dann, why’d you change your vote to haven?

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This is interesting

Why do you say that dramonic?

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backup modded by Datisi

Wait, hangonafuckinsecond

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I lowkey suspect this setup is gonna feel really weird

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I was referring more to the first half of the sentence

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It means that I am recognising a truth universally acknowledged, that a single dannflor in possession of his wits, must be in the process of being inevitably TR by Menalque

I would lowkey expect that opposite after Ali vs. Pine

I feel like we’ve played since then and you were scum and I TR you again? I could be wrong though

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Wait, no I’m not, it was when you were hydra’d with I wanna say ank and I was the only posting head of a hydra and you KILLED me on NIGHT ONE despite me AHRD TOWNREADING YOU and despite the fact that I WOULD HAVE WON had I just activated my “die on N1” win condition!

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Dann, why’d you change your vote to haven?

It's very small but I didn't like how she switched her vote from you to Umlaut. You had two votes on you at the time and RVS voting you would have built a sizable wagon. I wonder if maybe she was scared off by being the third vote on a (let's say town for now) wagon and decided to switch her vote to someone with no votes yet. Also, the "for sheeping" reasoning is kinda strange considering she had just sheeped people on the Menalque vote.

It's possible this didn't cross Haven's mind at all and I read far too much into it, but it was mildly scummier than I thought Dunnstral was.

Why'd you put Marashu at the bottom of your preliminary reads list?

This seems like a stretch honestly, like idk why haven would as either alignment be worried about a 3 vote wagon on means I don’t think that would be a “sizeable” wagon anyway?

Like I feel like you’re reading into this a lot. You’re also saying you think Dunn was legit scummy for that opening?

And teacher is exactly right, it was a joke about Marashu having rolled scum a frankly silly number of times for how many games he’s had

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This game @dann

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=81907

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Although tbf looking back at it and casting back into the locked vault in my mind where I tried to lock that game, I realise it was more alyssa who I TR than you

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Also, what happened to your title?

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Also, I have a lot of respect for your scumgame, how would you say you do as town? I’m not sure I’ve ever played with/against town!you

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You remember that game but you don’t remember post apocalyptic smh

Ho-hum. I guess I’m just a little ~*eh*~ on your being reachy quite so early on? Like it feels like you’re going for something unnecessarily to try to like force the game into something new and I suppose that seemed a bit off. Although, equally, I’m not really sure that scum!you would feel the need to do that, so imma mark it down as NAI for now

Talk to me about dunny then? Bc I don’t really think anyone has done much AI yet apart from hiraki who I think is scum for meta reasons

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Also, what happened to your title?

I decided I didn't like it

This is a shame because I thought it was super cute

Also, I feel like I don’t have a sense of your towngame despite that game because it was so long ago (I mean damn boi, I looked in your ISO and you were having to explain “gated” to me) and I feel like I approach games very differently now

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Oh yeah, and

VOTE: hiraki

This is a srs vote, kinda was thinking of holding onto it to avoid putting him on the defensive but fuck it

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I think the billy rep out was scummy af and it’s a hard break to be caught in but *shrug*

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It’s serious, as stated

It’s based on the fact that billy is happily playing in multiple other games (no major RL issue) saw his role PM for this game and nope’d the fuck out. I’m pretty sure he’s also on record as saying he prefers playing town > scum, and without being overly arrogant because I think I’d only be a partial factor here, I think there are at least a couple of players here he’d want to play with if he’s got a town role PM

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Also, I feel like I don’t have a sense of your towngame despite that game because it was so long ago (I mean damn boi, I looked in your ISO and you were having to explain “gated” to me) and I feel like I approach games very differently now

I just linked it because I remember it as a town game I performed decently in and I think it summarizes my own game well. It doesn't really matter. I think you'll get to know the difference this game.

I remember you playing well in it, I just don’t remember what, if anything, differentiated it from your scumgame that I then went on to TR twice

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Early on is exactly the time to be reach imo.

I just expect a lot from Dunnstral's town game and entering with a setup question followed by #42 where he answers a question with a non-answer question that doesn't really seem productive or game-furthering in anyway is not what I expect from him.

I think I’ve just moved away from this in my own approach and like to just solidly meme normally until my reads start firming up as people start pushing etc, and I think I’m trying to avoid being reachy myself as I’ve come to terms with the fact that my reads are like, not great

For dunn: guess I’m willing to wait and see? I’ve misread him as scum before when he’s just had a lazy towngame and so I think that’s not pinging me because I have no idea if this is likely to be a tryhardy game for him as town, plus I think he’s out in multiple very competent scum performances recently and lowkey think he’d make a townier entrance than that if he were scum. So I guess I’m a gut level I’m very slightly townleaning him from it

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Incidentally @teacher, how much time do you have to play atm? Just wanna get a broad feel for your activity level and what it’s likely to be through the game

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Man, I’m really looking forward to this game actually, I just realised

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I don’t think being wrong makes you look dumb really, I just feel like I want to try to more analyse what has happened without being an actor in it now, trying to learn from a scumhunter I very deeply respect. Also, yeah, that makes sense to me

***

Okay, noted @teacher. Likewise regarding the meta you may remember of me, I took a break for a month or two earlier this year (around the same time as you actually?) and have been trying, somewhat failing, somewhat succeeding to play differently since then.

Also, okay, gotcha re the time commitments

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I want to call Mena town but I've never played a multi-ball setup before and I'm scared about how that might affect my reads

?

You mean as in I could be replicating my towngame by just scumhunting the other faction if I were scum?

Yeah, that’s fair, I think I was doing that quite successfully as third party in post apocalyptic. I think my alignment generally becomes clearer as games go on

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i've got nothing to say about the above except that it's stupid and the fact that someone voted with scum on that logic is

yikes

So are you saying that your scumread on me is serious?

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This is interesting

Why do you say that dramonic?

@dramonic you didn’t answer this other than with a quip, could you do so now?

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Also “I’m somehow at 5 out of 4” — what does this mean?

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Me neither, haven, me neither

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Also, I keep forgetting about the “not talking about replacements” rule, sorry TL

I should prob make a post in the discussion forums at some point because I think it’s mildly ridiculous, but yeah, will try to remember to avoid from this point on

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Actually, I just reread the rules on replacements and I’m confused on what’s angleshooty about discussing them?

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i've got nothing to say about the above except that it's stupid and the fact that someone voted with scum on that logic is

yikes

So are you saying that your scumread on me is serious?

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Okay, I’m taking that as a yes then

What is it in the 5 posts that I made after receiving my role PM that you believe was so strongly scum indicative?

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Snap snap, this should be easy

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Actually, I just reread the rules on replacements and I’m confused on what’s angleshooty about discussing them?

Using replacements to speculate someone's alignment or role is angleshooting as replacements are considered an outside influence.

Okay, I guess I’m confused because the wording to me seems to say that replacements are an outside influence when they’re used as threats, people are told by others in the game that they should replace out, or when someone gives reasons for their replace out that then get analysed as to truthfulness or not etc

What I’m confused by is that I don’t see how discussing the absence of one player can be angleshooting when that’s something that’s very plainly available for all to see?

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Haven is also a good wagon

Disagree, but why?

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I think haven is towards town tbh

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What is it in the 5 posts that I made after receiving my role PM that you believe was so strongly scum indicative?

Why do you care? You're already calling me scum, right?

I mean, yes, I am, but I think if I’m wrong and you’re town that the best chance of me realising that will be if I can see how you got to where you are even if you’re wrong

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But using only in-game material, you having a strong scumread on me that you’ve reiterated from what are 5 very NAI posts from me is Not A Good Look

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What is it in the 5 posts that I made after receiving my role PM that you believe was so strongly scum indicative?

Why do you care? You're already calling me scum, right?

I mean, yes, I am, but I think if I’m wrong and you’re town that the best chance of me realising that will be if I can see how you got to where you are even if you’re wrong

Which has nothing to do with why you're voting me, okay okay

pre-Edit: you literally gave out a forced readslist lol, very NAI

Which was p clearly a joke and explained as such?

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I mean I’m voting you for the reasons I gave, I also find your trajectory and read on me scummy and I don’t see how the one invalidates the other?

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jokes are usually funny

Okay, so you may not have found it funny but that doesn’t explain why it would be scummy?

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...but it was a joke, which, again, was explained by the time that you doubled down on your read?

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Okay, but you’re also just not making any sense

Your take is: mena gave a forced readslist, therefore is scum, yes?

Problems

(1) that’s like a really strong take to be pushing as hard as you are

(2) it was a joke, which had already been explained by the time you doubled down on scum!me

(3) in the case that you missed it was a joke/just didn’t find it funny, that still doesn’t explain why you thought it was scummy once it was clear that it was intended as a joke, unless you think that bad jokes = scum in which case I can’t help you bro

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Yo Dann, teacher, haven, dunn — this feels like I’m being dealt with in very bad faith, but I find it hard to judge when I’m the one someone is aiming at

Do you think that’s accurate to what’s happening or am I reading too much into this?

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The... bit where you’ve been repeatedly calling me scum?

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Vote: Menalque

One is Menalque, duh.

i've got nothing to say about the above except that it's stupid and the fact that someone voted with scum on that logic is

yikes

i've got nothing to say about the above except that it's stupid and the fact that someone voted with scum on that logic is

yikes

I sincerely hope you aren't referring to my post because this response doesn't make sense if you are.

nah, you didn't vote either. was referring to melanque

I mean...?

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I didn’t say you were getting traction on it, but I think the idea that you haven’t been pushing me is kinda silly

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This is interesting

Why do you say that dramonic?

@dramonic you didn’t answer this other than with a quip, could you do so now?

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Because I’d made very few posts at that point and want you to justify why you were saying you thought I was probably scum

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please don't ask about my town winrate

It’s 100% on mafiascum(dot)net!

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The... bit where you’ve been repeatedly calling me scum?

So - let's be clear. Even though you believed that there was nothing substantial behind it -

But using only in-game material, you having a strong scumread on me that you’ve reiterated from what are 5 very NAI posts from me is Not A Good Look

You decided to say that me calling you scum 4 times was a "hard" push? What exactly constitutes as a "soft" push then? Is it when you just think about the person?

Still looking in my dictionary btw - I think the word is operational. Hmm...no, that's not it. I'm almost there.

I mean I think that you’re hard pushing that idea yes, and the fact that you’re continuing to do so is like more evidence of that

Again, you are pushing the idea as hard as I think anyone could be given how little it’s based on — that’s what makes it a hard push. If there was far more content, it would be a softer push

I have no idea what you’re getting at with the whole dictionary thing

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Dann, thoughts on dram here?

Haven, that goes out to you too

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https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go

You may want to check this @dann

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I’m like, deeply perplexed by his take on me and reluctance to answer what was a very simple question about his initial comment

But like, flip side, i feel like it’s probably confbiasing to think he would be defending buddy!hikari this hard and also that he would have backed him on the initial thing where he said I was scum from right out of the gate

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Just alluding to having reads without actually stating them?

Which posts do you think he’s doing this in?

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Err, nah, I think that’s him saying he has 3 reads and needs to find one more which he then outs — but like I felt he’s been fairly clear on his reads overall, he just hasn’t really given reasoning for them

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At this point I’d like to hear from dunn, A50, and umlaut

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Imma briefly step out of thread to give it a chance to breathe

I’m also interested in what the other slots who have been uninvolved in this are thinking, but those three are like those I’m most interested in hearing from

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Okay I think I’m at like

Dann, teacher - town
Umlaut, haven
Testa - townlean
Dunn - basically null but marginally above the other two
Gypx, A50 - null
Crush - true null
Dram - scummy
Hikari - scum

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I’d like to see crush slot post and I still want to hear from dunn and A50

I am like above average confident that hiraki is scum at this point, I’m less sure on dram

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Your reasoning is weird, but the conclusion is sound, so IDC

Namely I’m like, uncertain that scum make posts where they kind of brazenly ignore reasoning like this? At the least I don’t think dram is scum with hiraki I suppose 2nd scunteam maybe would explain it

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You keep saying things like this and I just have no idea why you think I would trust that to be accurate/correct

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Oh, I forgot marashu, he’s also in null for now

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I genuinely have no idea what you’re trying to say

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Oh, I forgot marashu, he’s also in null for now

What shade ofr null is that? You seem to have 3 null categories.

The same one as you + gypx

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Why would you think that Dram, who is scummy, would give out correct reads?

I wouldn’t? But like I don’t see why he, regardless of alignment, would expect anyone to listen to him if he’s just asserting things?

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Can you explain the Dram read? I agree he's being weird but I don't see the scum angle.

He just like, hasn’t felt meaningfully scumhunty to me? Like, my definition of scumhunting doesn’t include “pick 4 names and loudly shout that they’re scum”

Idk, I’m mulling it over in light of him finally having come up with reasoning for why haven is scum. I don’t think I’m very persuaded by it at a glance, but I’m thinking about whether this is just a thing of join date rather than scum

I guess the confounding factor is that hiraki has a simile join date, is playing in a similar way, but I do think is actively scum. I guess I’m working through whether it makes sense for dram to have simile takes to hiraki!scum if he’s town?

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ok but you considered the implication that you would care about it, which to me is a clear notation of scum thinking versus town thinking

I still don’t get what the point is here, sorry

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Is anyone actually townreading hiraki?

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@dunny are you caught up?

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I think I may just townbin A50 and worry about that later if it needs to be worried about

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What are the odds? Like 66% right

So that’s a reasonable course of action

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Umlaut, what’s your read on dram?

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Him flipping scum feels too good to be true

Why?

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I just did!

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Although I’m going for dinner soon-ish so the conversation may end up getting curtailed

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Him flipping scum feels too good to be true

Why?

It's almost too easy
their reaction to their wagon has been terrible
their tone is general is bad

but maybe its porkens in WHY GUN all over again

This is more or less where I’m coming at it from — or like, more, I’d rather not starting worrying about “maybe all the scum are in the neutral slots or oh my god dann is a deepwolf again” until I’ve cleared through my top suspect(s)?

I don’t always have strong scumreads on D1, and in this case I do have one that’s pretty strong, so I want to actively flip there first and then reconsider if I’m wrong

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It also probably contributes to that that I feel like flipping hiraki doesn’t lose a lot, because I don’t think he’s interested in sorting basically anyone’s alignment and the one person he’s been actively pushing is the only person who I know for a fact to be town

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I don’t really think hiraki coming across as a dick is AI, even though I do find it unpleasant

I think it’s much more that his reasons for scumreading me were fabricated and then changed under interrogation

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This is also the other thing I have doubts about regarding you, which is that you seem to also misrep or engage in bad faith with me

Like I don’t think I’ve ever said that I think hikari is scum bc he’s unpleasant and that’s not part of my read, so idk why you think it is/are implying that it is

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Honestly I kinda like Dramonic. They are at least producing content/providing reasoning behind reads (hey, Hiraki, any time you want to hit up 295 that would be grand). While I disagree with their takes, I can see the reasoning and I like the different perspective. I also dont really feel like they're misrepping.

Okay, what about the specific thing I just talked about? Like my reason for why I think hiraki is scum has been fairly clearly laid out and has nothing to do with whether I like their style much or not

Why do you think dram was implying that that was my reason for voting there?

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Was testa scum or town in that game?

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Yeah I looked it up

Hmm-mm

Okay, I’ll think about it

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I think the pertinent question is maybe more “why does dram disagree with my hiraki case?”

Because the main argument there seems to be “Mena is scum”

Why am I scum “because haven is scum and associations” plus I guess other stuff if he does get around to casing me

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I mean I guess I can maybe see it on like a very level 0 thinking thing

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Coupled with being out of date

Yo dram how many games have you played the last, say, 2 years?

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Also can anyone do the math on how many misguillos we get given the extra scum and the 2 NKs?

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Honestly I kinda like Dramonic. They are at least producing content/providing reasoning behind reads (hey, Hiraki, any time you want to hit up 295 that would be grand). While I disagree with their takes, I can see the reasoning and I like the different perspective. I also dont really feel like they're misrepping.

Okay, what about the specific thing I just talked about? Like my reason for why I think hiraki is scum has been fairly clearly laid out and has nothing to do with whether I like their style much or not

Why do you think dram was implying that that was my reason for voting there?

Im not certain he was. It was a throwaway line at the end of a post with a different topic. Regardless, its obvious that Dram doesnt agree with/think much of your Hiraki case, so Im not surprised that he would belittle it. I just dont see it as misrepping, and certainly not intentionally so, rather than stating his own view of it.

@dann do you agree/disagree with this?

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So by that point town are already in a kingmaker scenario right?

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So de facto 1 misguillo in a worst case scenario

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Btw do you wanna explain why that’s not a town mentality or are we playing the guessing game again?

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I don’t think I’m doing that and I apologise if you think I am

I *do* think you’re playing to an outdated site meta which is leading you to bad reads, and it’s not the same thing. I’ve also seen it before first hand with a scumbuddy of mine a couple of games ago where he was in PT like “idgi why are people scumreading me, this is literally my town meta??” and it was just because the site had moved on a lot in play from when he was active

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That’s not what I said

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I’m not talking about my personal meta, I’m talking about site meta ie how people tend to approach the game as town and as scum, and I think that’s moved on from wherever it was when you used to play regularly

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I kinda think the fact that you’re confusing my referencing of site meta with the idea of me using self meta is another thing that’s indicative that that’s the case

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I feel like Mena's been looking at meta a lot this game, moreso than the one other game I played with Mena.

Hi marashu, where do you think I’ve been looking a lot at meta this game?

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Which benefits exactly are you expecting to see by concealing your reads?

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Okay why do you consider that important/best done through keeping your reads to yourself?

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Also can you explain why you think haven is scum?

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And again, is anyone TRing hiraki?

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Menalque, why are you town reading me?

I liked your initial engagement with me about you being reachy and then it cemented from when you were sorting hiraki in that conversation afterwards

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Hi gamma

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Okay do you wanna talk about why that is

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You townreading hiraki and scumreading dram doesn’t make sense to me

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*sighs in timezone*

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Dann, teacher
Umlaut, testa, dram
Triple, marashu
A50
Gypx, dunn
Gamma
Hiraki

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I think gamma’s rep in/catch up is quite scummy but I’m willing to listen to whatever he has to say on me in case it makes sense

But I kind of think this is exactly the trajectory he’s take as scum, especially if crush!slot were partnered with hiraki and I think it explains why the gamestate felt odd — like no-one really explicitly townreading hiraki but no-one making an effort to defend him

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what part of "I really don't like the wagon on Hiraki, who's probably one of the townier player in the game rn if you actually look at what hes doing as opposed to flailing hysterically because he's abrasive." makes you think I don't explicitely townread him?

@dram

I don’t think that you’ve really been defending him tho, and I think it would be too on the nose for you to be partners as opposed to one of you playing to the other for support

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Menalque, why are you town reading me?

I liked your initial engagement with me about you being reachy and then it cemented from when you were sorting hiraki in that conversation afterwards

How likely do you think it is I can fake that as scum?

It might seem weird but my main point of concern with your slot is how little you seem to be paranoid about me.

Probably p likely?

Idk what to tell you dann, I’m just not as paranoid as I used to be. Do I think theoretically you could just be fooling me? Sure. If we flip town twice does my level of unease about my townreads shoot way up? Also yes. But you seem town to me today and I’m just like choosing to not interrogate that or to spiral about it because OMg wHaT iF hE’S a DeEpWoLf tHo

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I wanna say someone else (maybe datisi?) recently had a similar thing about how I just wasn’t paranoid about her despite normally being hyperparanoid

I can try to dig that up if you like?

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It’s a recognition that paranoia wasn’t really doing anything for me other than making me enjoy the game less

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What did you think about gamma’s entrance?

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There’s also his approach to me, but I’m waiting on him to go into more depth there

But like I didn’t like the fact that he came in, was basically agreeing with me on hiraki, but then shifted that round gradually to the point where I was being presented as the scummy one in the interaction. But then instead of pressing that point, he switched onto dram and focused his energies there

It’s a confounding factor that there are two scumteams so maaaaybe he thinks I’m on one and dram is on the other. But it felt a lot like a way to avoid me/discredit my takes without having to actually commit very hard to the read on me or confront me directly

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I also like really don’t get his take on dram as opposed to hiraki? I can see thinking they’re both town, and I can see thinking hiraki is scum and dram is town, but I don’t see how he gets to dram is scum but hiraki is town

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Why?

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what do you think was overreacting? me calling it a hardpush or something else?

I also didn't think he was sure of that read, I doubted that read could exist that strongly in a world where hiraki was town and wanted to interrogate him about it

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You townreading hiraki and scumreading dram doesn’t make sense to me

My Hiraki read is based on experience (meta in other words), so you’re probably just not in the loop there. So why do you think my dram read doesn’t make sense?

meta with hiraki?

I think that dram's like, insane overconfidence in his reads for things that I think are NAI or ambiguous is similar to hiraki's take on me being scum

what I think is different is that I think that when he went further into his read on triple is that I think he does genuinely have the reads he's talking about, and that he's interested in the game beyond me/triple and the other slots. I don't see that in hiraki -- his entire game approach seems to have been about this and me!scum and he doesn't seem interested in sorting beyond that

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what do you think was overreacting? me calling it a hardpush or something else?

I also didn't think he was sure of that read, I doubted that read could exist that strongly in a world where hiraki was town and wanted to interrogate him about it

Yeah, the calling it a hardpush

I feel like you responded that way because as scum you have to take suspicions towards you seriously

okay, but I explained at the time that by hard push I meant that he was pushing the idea that I was scum hard? which I think is objectively true

why would I be worried about that as scum when it wasn't really getting any play?

[Menalque]

we're like 24 pages in? I don't think that's early to have my reads

it's based on my impressions of the different slots so far? I'm PoEing you and gypx out to scum because I think everyone else has town more town indicative things than either of you, and I think you both lowkey fit the position where I'd expect scum to be if dram is town and I'm town and teacher's town and dann's town which is just chilling out and letting us go at it

if I am towning scum, then I'll realise that if and when my scum reads flip town

[Menalque]

re 597

"I never really scumread Hiraki, there was only one point where I really even started entertaining that thought. All I did was talk about how I wasn’t okay with his interactions at the time."

what does this mean? I don't get what you mean by (1) I wasn't scumreading him and (2) I wasn't okay with his interactions at the time

"but tbh I think if I wanted to divert attention from Hiraki I just push Menalque? Pretty sure a wider range of people have expressed suspicion of him"

yeah I did have this thought, and I'm considering it. I'm not sure if, even given dram and hiraki calling me scum, you necessarily think that I'm a good option for a push if you're scum and you think I'm town.

**

I'll have another look at your entry posts, I certainly felt like you were scumreading or implying a scumread on hiraki and that's straight up exactly what I was expecting the crush slot to do if it were scum with hiraki. enter saying hmm, yeah, I see how this guy can be scummy. but oh no, wait, actually they're okay after all. I wasn't sure if I'd be pushed as part of that, but the recognition that the posts were Bad(tm) only to shift to a townread is like, a very partner-y trajectory imo

[Menalque]

You townreading hiraki and scumreading dram doesn’t make sense to me

My Hiraki read is based on experience (meta in other words), so you’re probably just not in the loop there. So why do you think my dram read doesn’t make sense?

meta with hiraki?

I think that dram's like, insane overconfidence in his reads for things that I think are NAI or ambiguous is similar to hiraki's take on me being scum

what I think is different is that I think that when he went further into his read on triple is that I think he does genuinely have the reads he's talking about, and that he's interested in the game beyond me/triple and the other slots. I don't see that in hiraki -- his entire game approach seems to have been about this and me!scum and he doesn't seem interested in sorting beyond that

I can see what you’re saying about reads, but here’s where we diverge in thought.

(1) For dramonic, yes I think some of her reads might be genuine, namely the TH read on the one on you. However, that doesn’t mute out the fact the rest of her scumhunting doesn’t come off as genuine.

Plus the “they’re a scumbuddy” thing, though I’ll have to double-check, hasn’t really been explained in any meaningful capacity since I recall it being used in a situation not relating to TH + Menalque
As for Hiraki,

(2) yes I have meta on him that I’m using, mainly to understand his personality and how he plays.

While I would like him to give more reads on the other players,

(3) that doesn’t detract from how towny his approach to certain interactions has been

, at least not enough to make me doubt my read. Also he at least has indicated what amounts to a dramonic townread, via disagreeing with me voting there.

(1) why is the scum hunting not genuine besides having a weird process that he should stick to having as many scumreads as there are scum? like yes, I think that's a slightly flawed process, but I don't think it's scummy -- I use something similar which is to try to limit my scumreads to the number of scum + 50% (so here 6 scumreads would be my max) because otherwise you start spiralling into paranoia etc

(2) okay, where from? and is it direct meta or meta from you reading a game that he was in?

(3) okay, can you point more clearly to where this was and why his approach to certain interactions was towny?

[Menalque]

what do you mean by "My thoughts on Hiraki early on we’re a sort of “prodigal son” view on his posts."?

[Menalque]

and what do you mean by "Once he affirmed my POV, that’s when I really started to townread him."?

[Menalque]

I gotta go in a sec btw

[Menalque]

I am now also thinking I may have been wrong on Hiraki btw

Why?

[Menalque]

Menalque, could you elaborate on your town read on TripleHaven? Is there more to it than meta?

Not really, and I didn’t love her recent posts but overall she reminds me significantly of last game with the key exception being a lack of paranoia of me. I’m putting that down to my being town last game tho and then playing the same here, so I think it makes sense she’d be less concerned

[Menalque]

ya'll starting scumreading me from my first post and your guys reasoning for voting me hasn't evolved since like page 10

ok, TO BE FAIR- most of my games are turbos (16 minute/8 minute) games and nobody takes them seriously.

i'm assuming thats why you found me useless in my recent games

I think this is fine

[Menalque]

547

614

[Menalque]

Whats town about 614? If anything I think that’s +scum with the “oh I don’t have many read yet this game”

[Menalque]

I guess like, meta doesn't seem like a great thing to base a read on here if you don't know how she'd behave as scum.

That might be fair, but I also am just deeply unconvinced by the case that dram made and think that if that’s the “evidence” for scum her it’s light on the ground at best

I also think she’s potentially a target for scum given her newness to mafiascum

[Menalque]

it's pretty easy to slap a few town reads on people as scum

openly admitting to having basically 1 real read isn't something scum really needs to do, it reads genuine to me

Nah, I disagree, I think town mostly come to at least a few reads naturally

I’m p sure I see the “huh I just don’t have reads this game idk” come from scum more than town

[Menalque]

Or at least, above rand!scum

[Menalque]

I also don’t see what’s town about 547 that it outweighs the reasons for thinking hiraki is scum

[Menalque]

I’d really like umlaut to weigh in on hiraki tbh seeing as he has recent meta with him

[Menalque]

Can you recap the reasons hiraki feels scum to you? Not a case just a few bullet points

Sure:

Way overconfident scumread on me from way too little information. I don’t think it’s plausible that he had a scumread that strong based on what I’d posted.

When asked to justify it, he said that it was because I’d given a “forced” readslist. When it was pointed out that this was a joke and that that had already been explained, he doubled down on it being “forced” and that it “wasn’t funny”.

Proceeded to try to dismiss the scumreads on his slot with a load of AtE and lolcatting.

Doesn’t seem to have any organic reads on the rest of the PL which is in stark contrast to his recent completed game here where he had a full readslist in by post 135 and was also just tonally completely different in how he entered the game and engaged with the other players, showing much more good faith and interest in cooperation.

[Menalque]

Oh, also I think that under interrogation on his read/entry he also changed his reasons for his scumread/it’s strength multiple times but I’d have to reread those pages to be certain on that

[Menalque]

I feel that any one of the things in 640 wouldn’t be a bad reason to guullotine someone on D1, and I think that all of them mean that this is the most confident I’ve been in someone being scum on D1 in a while. I don’t really like to try tip quantify confidence so much nowadays, but to give an idea, I’d say there is like a 55%-60% chance that hiraki flips scum here.

[Menalque]

*yawn*

[Menalque]

Okay I’m probably gonna start ignoring dram because this is the sort of behaviour that has often led to me getting toxic in the past and I’d really rather than not happen here !

[Menalque]

It’s saying that I think he’s a little less than twice as likely as rand to flip scum which is pretty high for D1

[Menalque]

Nobody suggests rand but that’s the sensible thing to compare your confidence level to?

[Menalque]

Like I’m not suggesting rand, but I’m saying that even people renowned for their accuracy of reads I think are normally only hitting about 70% or something

55-60% is just realistic for a strong scumread on D1 with no additional info

[Menalque]

I have an accurate idea of how good my reads are, I think

I think the odds of being accurately on scum are not great based on my own work and only my own work. Read strength is not what I do well as town, and I’m okay with that and with giving an accurate indication of how likely I really think hiraki is to flip scum

[Menalque]

Like I’d rather say it’s slightly more likely than not that hiraki flips scum, and that’s a significant improvement on the random chance of finding scum

[Menalque]

Like for reference I doubt I would almost ever claim a higher certainty than maybe 70% now in my belief that someone would flip scum D1, outside of them outright counterclaiming a role I knew I had in an open setup

[Menalque]

Okay, and unless your reads are flipping scum 90% of the time (and again, I very much doubt this given that one of the players with one of the strongest read rates in recent history was, as mentioned, at around 70% or something), you shouldn’t be hitting that level of confidence each time

[Menalque]

Well I mean I know that at a minimum you’re at 50% rn so... no? Also this has mostly just served to distract from the whole host of reasons for why hiraki is likely scum on the last page

[Menalque]

I am a little concerned by how you’re not really trying to parse my meaning at all? It’s just “what does this mean” a whole bunch. Doesn’t make me think you’re really trying to understand what I’m saying.

Ftr, i object to this characterisation, I’m trying, failing to do so at points because what you’ve said is unclear to me, and seeking clarification

Like I don’t think it’s reasonable at all to expect me to understand what you meant by “he’s like a prodigal son sort of” and think that if I had taken a guess as to what you meant, it would always have been ambiguous and likely would have led to miscommunication

This feels like straight shade, honestly

[Menalque]

Also, gamma, I’m aware you said other stuff but it was a lot of words and I’ve had a couple of beers and I just don’t really feel like trying to parse whether it makes sense or it’s just bs right now

I’ll get to it another time

[Menalque]

Mara, I’m trying to explain why I think dram is so wrong if town. Fmpov (knowing I’m town) dram has been pushing conftown, and three of my top townreads. My explanations for that are either (1) he’s scum (2) he’s incompetent (3) something else.

I started to come round to him not being scum after talking to Dann about it, which meant he’s either incompetent or something else is at play. He’s certainly overconfident and abrasive, but neither of those things necessarily implies incompetence. I know it’s a factor (I can pull posts if you like) that players returning to the site often struggle to perform as they once did because the meta *has* changed. That’s a fact, not my opinion. You can find multiple people talking about how it’s changed and to an extent in what ways if you look at what people who have been around through the transition say.

So given that why is it scummy for me to be using meta to explain why I think dram has his reads ass-backwards instead as opposed to the natural response for town!me after coming round to a position of dram!town?

[Menalque]

I think it’s interesting that it’s a struggle to get voted on hiraki when I think two people have expressed a townread on him and that’s it.

I think this is also probably scum indicative because I don’t think scum want to hit scum on D1 (even from the other team).

[Menalque]

Also, while you’re around, what do you think about the reasons I gave for hiraki!scum in 640

[Menalque]

Gypx do you have thoughts yet?

[Menalque]

I was talking about dram?

[Menalque]

In the eventuality that you're town it also applies to you. I just don't think you're town.

[Menalque]

I don't think I've attributed it to you?

[Menalque]

Like, I think I’ve been pretty clear

When I said “scum for meta reasons” I was talking about the stuff that TL considers angle shooting and that I therefore can’t go further into. I think that’s very clear from the context and where I explain it further

When I talk about dram being wrong because of site meta, that’s a totally different thing

And yes, I consider my holistic read of people based on prior interactions with them? What exactly is your problem with this?

[Menalque]

Also that’s lowkey funny because I do have a question for umlaut that is specifically about meta

[Menalque]

i just find it ironic that whenever melanque needs to come up with a decent excuse for reads - it becomes "meta"

whether it be "meta" for angleshooting

"meta" for dram is too old

"meta" for...maybe umlaut next?

Also, you’re like, entirely disregarding 640 which had at least half of the points on why you’re scum as specific to how you’ve played this game as opposed to meta?

[Menalque]

NB: my name is “menalque” not “melanque”

[Menalque]

Yeah, I’ve been weighing that up. I was considering not answering but I figure scum have probably talked about it in PT and what they should do strategy wise so I doubt I’m hurting town here

I think they’d probably want to avoid targeting the other team D1. I would. If the other team are guillotined then they are in a tricky situation and I think likely to try very hard to scumhunt to look town the next day/they might shoot at you if they think they’ve figured you out bc the other scumteam will probably try to finish you before too long. Also because if the other scumteam hit you accidentally they’ve turned it into an 9:2 which is a micro with an extra MG, and which definitely benefits town.

If I’m scum I want to tentatively work with the other scumteam to get a mislynch and then I probably try to kill town again. D2 I’d start really pursuing the other scumteam with a weak town who are more likely to have to work with me in a kingmaker scenario.

[Menalque]

Also

(1) I think town are often way overconfident (look at dram) but I think it follows from something that seems like sound premises. I think the basis that hiraki was giving a “mena is lockscum” read was not strong enough for him to reasonably hold that belief. Therefore I think he’s scum making it up.

(2) why does it matter if it wasn’t apparent to him initially, given that it had been explained as a joke by the point he was still trying to use it as evidence for his scumread on me? Also it doesn’t matter exactly if it was a hardpush in terms of the traction it got — the point is that he was pushing it too hard. Do you see what I’m getting at with the distinction I’m drawing here?

(3) he’d shift his vote because I wasn’t picking up traction, haven is a relatively safe target, and he was the top wagon other than that — it’s survivalism

(4) right, it’s a phoney/shallow engagement — it’s not really trying to sort through slots, it’s just trying to keep the focus on one issue and not expanding beyond that

[Menalque]

His posts feel pretty dispassionate, like he's trying to be a mediator to appear engaged. By this I mean he's not really taking any hard stances unless called on. 221 is where I started getting scum vibes. 380 doesn't come from a town mindset, in my opinion, and I haven't really seen anything that's getting me to see this slot as town.

Whats scummy in 221 and why is teacher playing as a mediator scummy to you?

Also, what about 380 makes you say it doesn’t come from a town mindset?

[Menalque]

Oh lmao

[Menalque]

Teacher I think marashu is quite likely to be town, why do you have him at nullscum?

[Menalque]

Also remind me of your umlaut read?

[Menalque]

(1) solistic isn’t a word, do you mean solipsistic? And if so, how is it that?

(2) bc unlaut has recent meta with you and I’m currently thinking he’s town, so obviously I would like to know if he thinks you’re playing similarly to 2d4 (where I know you were town) or not

(3) no, that is scummy. It’s claiming a level of confidence that’s unjustifiable if town in that situation

(4) the fact that a “forced readslist” as justification for a strong scumread is a bunk explanation when it had already been clarified that that was a joke

(5) that is very literally what happened and I can pull quotes to prove it

(6) well I mean I think gamma is +average scum and a likely partner for you, soooo I’m not super trusting of his claim that you’re in your meta here

[Menalque]

Spoiler:

i've got nothing to say about the above except that it's stupid and the fact that someone voted with scum on that logic is

yikes

Spoiler:

try a third time, it might work. i don't think i stuttered the first time though

Spoiler:

And I wouldn’t think (and doubt anyone did) that anyone “could pull off” an exile/elimination that early, so I read his post as saying you were being blendy not actually solved.

blendy?

And how did you miss that, since Mena explained part and I explained the other prior to your own post about it?

i didn't miss it, it didn't matter. how many fucking times am i going to have to repeat myself this game? it's page 9 ffs

There’s no way Mena was going to be exiled this early D1 and everyone knows that so I don’t think he was saying solved.

that is LITERALLY what he is implying

Right now, I think he's reached a point where he initially latched on to something to scum read, realized it wasn't as damning as he initially thought it was, but now doesn't know how to back down from that without looking more scummy.

this LITERALLY SAYS that i am THROWING A HAIL MARY

realized it wasn't as damning as he initially thought it was

HAIL MARY - BRINGING IT TO THE END GOAL - DAMNING AS HE INITIALLY THOUGHT IT WAS

Oh never mind, I reread what you said after, what you're claiming is not that you weren't asserting your level of skill but that the skill you're asserting is just "not a complete dufus" rather than "so fucking good"

I don't really think that makes it any better, to be honest.

I am at least glad that you understand it. Don't care what you think about it.

Spoiler:

You're saying it wasn't a hard scum read now, is that the case?

you are a fucking comedian

Spoiler:

Could you try this again. I can’t parse your narrative at all, and want to.

there is nothing to rephrase here

I now think you're scum that has been "caught for the wrong reasons" and that's why you're so frustrated. Of course, a townie can get mad for getting scum read for shit reasons too, but they usually try to sort the people scum reading them as well. The aggression feels like a mask for your alignment.

git gud

What specifically was the reaction test - who did it and how?

did you read the wiki?

Spoiler:

There's no solid stance at any point. It's all "I sorta see it but maybe not teehee" kind of stuff.

I don't particularly scumread this but I understand where you're coming from. I certainly did notice it, just became annoying.

I dont follow all of the "person" and who they refer to in how you perceive the events

you don't know who i'm talking about after i've talked about them for 9+ pages because of you two at this point?

I did. Could you now answer the question, and answer what your take is on Menalque and why?

innocent child

I saw him as picking and choosing parts of the conversation to respond to

yeah the not dumb parts

I kept trying to steer the conversation to a firm Menalque read, and never got one.

wow

I wouldn’t?

You keep saying things like this and I just have no idea why you think I would trust that to be accurate/correct

ok but you considered the implication that you would care about it, which to me is a clear notation of scum thinking versus town thinking

But like I don’t see why he, regardless of alignment, would expect anyone to listen to him if he’s just asserting things?

so you are asking useless questions?

Okay, there’s not as much straight AtE as I remembered but there is some — it’s more like, attempting to paint the scumreads on you as ridiculous instead of engaging with them that’s scummy

This post has been edited to hide the quotes in

Spoiler:

tags.

[Menalque]

Ahh ffs

mod, i forgot to spoiler the quotes in my last post, could you fix it for me to make this page more readable pls?

[Menalque]

Spoiler: overconfidence on far too little

One is Menalque, duh.

i've got nothing to say about the above except that it's stupid and the fact that someone voted with scum on that logic is

yikes

try a third time, it might work. i don't think i stuttered the first time though

Spoiler: Says that it’s because of my readslist on pg2

What is it in the 5 posts that I made after receiving my role PM that you believe was so strongly scum indicative?

Why do you care? You're already calling me scum, right?

I mean, yes, I am, but I think if I’m wrong and you’re town that the best chance of me realising that will be if I can see how you got to where you are even if you’re wrong

Which has nothing to do with why you're voting me, okay okay

pre-Edit: you literally gave out a forced readslist lol, very NAI

jokes are usually funny

I just said that it was forced

Spoiler: Explaining the joke faaaar before hiraki uses it as justification for his SR on me

Preliminary reads:

Dannflor
Everyone else
Marashu

Dies this mean you just voted the guy you TR the most, or is this readlist upside down?

It means that I am recognising a truth universally acknowledged, that a single dannflor in possession of his wits, must be in the process of being inevitably TR by Menalque

Dann, why’d you change your vote to haven?

*snip*

Why'd you put Marashu at the bottom of your preliminary reads list?

If you don’t mind butting in, look at Mary’s history. I think they rolled scum for the first five games straight. Became memey. (Btw @maru - this is my first game since I ghosted on you. Sorry again for that, and congrats on the win)

Dann, why’d you change your vote to haven?

It's very small but I didn't like how she switched her vote from you to Umlaut. You had two votes on you at the time and RVS voting you would have built a sizable wagon. I wonder if maybe she was scared off by being the third vote on a (let's say town for now) wagon and decided to switch her vote to someone with no votes yet. Also, the "for sheeping" reasoning is kinda strange considering she had just sheeped people on the Menalque vote.

It's possible this didn't cross Haven's mind at all and I read far too much into it, but it was mildly scummier than I thought Dunnstral was.

Why'd you put Marashu at the bottom of your preliminary reads list?

*snip*

And teacher is exactly right, it was a joke about Marashu having rolled scum a frankly silly number of times for how many games he’s had

Spoiler: Deflection — trying to make it about me/the semantics of a hard push

How am I pushing hard again? Last I checked, you wanted to talk about this but I was pretty okay ignoring you. There's a word for this...let me take out my dictionary...

The... bit where you’ve been repeatedly calling me scum?

So - let's be clear. Even though you believed that there was nothing substantial behind it -

But using only in-game material, you having a strong scumread on me that you’ve reiterated from what are 5 very NAI posts from me is Not A Good Look

You decided to say that me calling you scum 4 times was a "hard" push? What exactly constitutes as a "soft" push then? Is it when you just think about the person?

Still looking in my dictionary btw - I think the word is operational. Hmm...no, that's not it. I'm almost there.

Right now, I think he's reached a point where he initially latched on to something to scum read, realized it wasn't as damning as he initially thought it was, but now doesn't know how to back down from that without looking more scummy. It's possible that comes from awkward/stubborn town, particularly one that has a philosophy of not interacting with scum reads?? But with #98 I rather doubt it.

he's literally saying that i thought i, as scum, could pull of a lynch on page 5 based off of a page 2 reads post that excludes 90% of the playerlist - why on earth would i take that argument seriously? it's probably one of the worst things i've read on this site lol. who in their right minds thinks that post is damning? because i called melanque scum 4 times based off of it? really? page 5? scum 4 times without providing any reasoning? hard push? no one else wants to call it like it is?

i will gladly be the D1 lynch if this is the type of logic i'm gonna be encountering in this game after our first little kerfuffle into mod intervention. thought i was in an open, not a newbie

I am trying to avoid doing cases but I pulled quotes to support what I’m already saying

[Menalque]

So hiraki

(1) tries to brush off the fact that he’s claiming high confidence in scum!me by not engaging

(2) when pushed on this he explains that it’s because I made a forced readslist

(3) claims this is scummy despite being a joke — even if he didn’t see it as a joke, he still shouldn’t find it scummy just for being “forced” as opposed to just being a bad joke

(4) tries to change his scumread on me to being about an overreaction, and makes in doing so tries to deflect from how scummy he is

[Menalque]

So I’m a lil drunk rn

But basically, yes, I know it’s taking up space, but that’s because I’m not seeing anyone voting hiraki and I’m also not seeing a whole lot of towncasing of him going on

I don’t really agree with the idea that running the game to deadline is very beneficial at all anymore, and half the time that just results in me talking myself out of a good read. Dunn and gypx are both pretty high in my scumreads, I don’t mind eliminating either, but I’m not as confident in either as I am in hiraki.

I’ll try to run more through the gamma thought when sober, I think I already touched on it — I think gamma’s opening is very close to what I would expect from the crush slot in a world where that’s the partner to hiraki. The like admital that he doesn’t look great through to suggesting I’m scummy but not really wanting to go in on that. Tbf this is a little confused because I’m not sure how much big a threat scum!gamma sees me as town. I think he might try 1v1ing me but I’m not sure. But I really don’t like his hiraki take and it doesn’t gel with what I see here/in the game that I’ve made reference to

[Menalque]

Basically, I feel confident hiraki is scum. Nothing in his posting has done anything to change that significantly

I want to flip there — if I’m wrong I wanna continue on my current reads. If he flips town I’ll reevaluate a bit

[Menalque]

Lol why

[Menalque]

Like how is that not a default thought process?

[Menalque]

No shit if you were to flip town I would re-evaluate

That doesn’t mean I don’t think you’re more likely to flip scum than town?

[Menalque]

Umlaut has requested replacement.

[Menalque]

I’m super fucked up ama

That includes you datisi

No guarantee I’ll respond to anything the meantime

[Menalque]

TripleHaven has requested replacement.

[Menalque]

I think jake is town

[Menalque]

Why are you unconvinced on hiraki?

[Menalque]

Teacher, what do you mean by “it seemed more useful than either gypx or hiraki”?

[Menalque]

Okay, what do you mean by caved in under pressure and scrutiny? In which posts do you think this happened?

And what do you mean by “socially inert”?

[Menalque]

Okay, what understandable reasons?

[Menalque]

I think jake is town

I know, I’m shocked too!

[Menalque]

lol

[Menalque]

I mean if Jake gets flipped and flips town then I’m very surprised you think we’re not doing hiraki next even if I’m dead at that point

I’m still optimistic that we flip hiraki today tho

[Menalque]

@teacher @dann can you give me an answer on what you think my alignment is next time you’re in thread?

[Menalque]

Okay, so am I right in thinking you’re at like scumlean or stronger on hiraki?

[Menalque]

I’m somewhat sympathetic to the idea of just getting rid of dunn or gypx today, I just don’t feel as individually confident that either of them will flip scum as hiraki

[Menalque]

Mena, answer my question i’ll Get it for you.

Hmm?

[Menalque]

Oh, err, I don’t understand?

Only half way what?

What do you agree with dann on?

I think we’ve only played one game together, or am I misremembering?

What does “a corner scumgame” mean?

And what do you mean by “haven’t seen you take pot shots there yet”?

[Menalque]

Okay, so am I right in thinking you’re at like scumlean or stronger on hiraki?

Stronger, but with a bit of wanting to reread Gamma's take and then go over the few times Ive played with them for personality.

Okay, so the idea is you’re not voting there because you feel it’s important to try to make gypx/dunn produce content?