Micro 962: Geriatric Trio II (Town Victory)

[Bingle]

VOTE: Porkens

It's worth noting that there is a typo in the MD PM on the wiki. Motion detector detects movement from or targeting the player, not just movement from the player twice.

[Bingle]

6. If a player has hit the daily limit and depleted their reserve, they are allowed one naked vote change per in-game Day.

@mod

: As written, this means that once your reserve is empty you may only change your vote once for the remainder of the phase. Can you clarify that this is what you intended?

I believe Agar and Porkens to be slightly more likely to be town than the rest of you.

VOTE: KMD

Come, my sheep. Jump to this new and clearly superior wagon.

[Bingle]

I'd turbowagon the shit out of bugspray in the interest of not having a chess match in the middle of the game, tbh.

If you want to play chess, go to mishmash. Don't clutter up a game with a ruleset that is specifically designed to appeal to people who don't want to clutter up the game.

@S&K, message received. Proceed with the thingy.

Clidd is now my strongest townread.

[Bingle]

Reckoner -> Ignorance in post 29 when referring to post 23, bad tone in general. I'm evaluating whether this is linked to his profile baseline.

i dont know who sou & kanna are, and in reading their read on me, it seemed so on-its-face ridiculous that i thought there was a good chance it was a joke

can you elaborate on "bad tone"

Sou is Datisi, Kanna is Kanna. Both are fairly new, and iirc Datisi was a Paragon contender last year.

I feel less good about Porkens, but will suffer infinite sadness if he's not in the game anymore.

Have a pagetop, Mr. Mod.

[Bingle]

49 serves what purpose, exactly?

It served a few purposes. It pointed out the identities of the hydra heads in case Reck actually cared (I assumed he didn't, but it didn't hurt to include that), updated the thread on the fact that I think there are scummy things coming from a slot I was previously explicitly townreading (which then allowed for people to engage me over those things if they so chose, which no one has done yet), and it bumped the thread so the mod could have the pagetop for his VC. I think that the last was clearly the most important of the three.

Also, the chess game is now defunct as one of the two participants has replaced out, so it's kind of a non issue at this point.

33 and 42 seem insincere to me. I don’t know how you get to locktown from those.

Insincere or stilted? Do you SR them, or is it just a not-a-townread?

I would be truly shocked if there is not scum on the S&K wagon, and I TR Agar. (I also TR clidd and S&K). I would be willing to vote Bspray slot, Reck, or KMD. I think Porkens has decent scum equity, but he also seems likely to amuse me and so I wouldn't vote there without being a bit more sure of myself.

@mod: my vote is currently on KMD, not Porkens, as of post 15. Thanks

[Bingle]

I'm not at all sold on Porkens town, and I'm not a huge fan of the content of his reads list. His reasoning on AGar/MS/KMD all comes across as unwilling to commit to me, and he casts shade on clidd for not following up on his attack on bugspray in 42 when bugspray's replacement request was literally announced two posts later. Apparently I'm hiding behind the smokescreen of interacting with the mod when I'm kind of blatantly just not doing much at the moment, as well as for pocketing him by saying that I'm enjoying his posts but think they're not towny (implied, not outright stated, but this is still what I gather from his assertion that 49 was a pocketing attempt). There also seems to be a weird attempt to tie agreeing with him to being town which raises my hackles.

43 also reeks of scum motivation. He consciously puffs up his posting to seem like there's more there than there is, while the tl;dr of the post is that he's scumreading S&K for puffing up their posting to make it seem like there's more there than there is. He also uses the opportunity to cast an unannounced E-1 vote on S&K when I fully believe he knew how close to elimination the wagon was (there's a VC earlier that page). Framing the post the way he did made it more likely for an accidental hammer by far, and I think he fully knew what he was doing in doing that.

That seems like a lot.

Does it, now? I'm willing to vote in the people who I'm not townreading on a wagon I believe to have scum motivation, and you. Less so Porkens, because he's actually putting out content to engage with unprodded. Who on that list do you think I should be unwilling to vote? Why?

[Bingle]

Bingle cannot generate content without some kind of mechanical or non-game-related crutch. their only game post was a fresh out of the ass critique of your freudposting that made no sense. Like they saw the post and said "I bet I can find something actionable here"

?

Is this a reference to the fact that I put non game related information into my game related posts, or an accusation that none of my posts are game related? Is there a particular reason that you've chosen not to engage with me over any of my stated reads?

This is a gross misunderstanding or misrepresentation. 43 is not “puffed up,” it is a deep analysis of the mindset behind post 4. There’s nothing extraneous about it; each idea supports the thesis and is needed for ancomplete analysis. Furthermore, I never accused Souk of “puffing up” their posts or called them scummy for “puffing up” posts. I don’t think you are making an honest analysis here.

The implication here is that post 4 is egregious and deserving of an in depth examination, more so than any other interaction at that point. You put an inane amount of effort into a psychological analysis of an RVS post, but have not put anywhere near that amount of effort into anything else in the thread, suggesting a reason for that post in particular to be singled out. Why then, does that post deserve that level of attention? Disproportionate response is 100% puffing up your post.

A note, my actual accusation, the meat of the scumread here, was that Porkens made a whole lot of something out of that post in order to put S&K at E-1 without announcing that it was an E-1 vote. Which... remains true.

Bingle is E-2, is he going to say something ?

Say it with me now... Geriatric. You should probably go read the linked Geriatric rules in the OP, because you seem to completely misunderstand them.

As far as the wagon on me, I'm not particularly worried, nor will it influence the way I play the game.

VOTE: Porkens

[Bingle]

It was the first post in the game, and I decided to make a deep analysis of it. There is nothing inane about analyzing and RVS post. And do you really expect me to do that for every post? That would take an insane amount of time.

The rest I've already explained.

Yes, but why that post at that time? There was already content in the thread when you made your 'deep analysis'. You had already entered the thread with your 'from the future post' so I thoroughly doubt it was a gimmick decided upon pregame. There was real content to engage with (reads I expressed 15, Kanna attempting to engage me in 19, my lack of response to that, Datisi's joke readlist in 23, MS's response to the 'townread' in 24, bugspray's 27... you get my point.) Instead, you go after the first post in the game, from a player who already has a wagon built on them for a bad reason when you could be going after points that have more immediate relevance. There is clear scum motivation there.

You explained the rest (here: the majority of the issue with your posting) in

Complete transparency I did not look at the vote count or count votes before I posted with my vote. However, after I made that post, I read the rest of the thread and saw that I had put Souk at e-1. I considered taking it down, but then decided just to leave it and see what came of it.

as little more than an aside several posts after your initial defense. Which tells me that you wanted to paint the accusation as being more about the tone and context of the original than about the real scum motivation present. I am aware of that defense, and also find it wholly unsatisfying. I'm also not here to convince you you're scum, but to convince everyone else of my PoV.

I would be interested in your analysis of the votes on my wagon and the fact that they seem to be entirely different to your own as an attempt to further my read on you, if you are indeed town. I'm also interested in hearing why you haven't voted me if you think I'm scum.


I intend to respond to Kanna's 19 later today, but I'm too busy to do so at the moment. If anyone else has something they'd like a response to, let me know and I'll address it then as well.

is there an easy way to see how much you posted each day?

The easiest way AFAIK is to look at the timestamps of your ISO and subtract number of the earliest post from the current period from the most recent post. If you just avoid multiposting by responding to multiple things at once and editing your posts, it should be easier to avoid as a problem, though.

[Bingle]

My power keeps going out randomly (5 times in the last ten minutes) because of the thunderstorm outside. As such I will likely not be typing up any large content posts tonight. My apologies. If the storm settles I will return.

[Bingle]

I believe Agar and Porkens to be slightly more likely to be town than the rest of you.

why is this? i wanna say i agree with Porkens, but i don't see Agar at all

~kanna

As of 19, Porkens had the best entrance to the thread by far (his entrance was strange enough that it looked like an attempt to start a discussion, and it was far removed from anything I've seen from scum Porkens). That has since changed, as discussed.

Agar, similarly poked reck and Porkens with his first post. Not knowing him personally, I'd assume he'd be at least slightly hesitant to poke what looked to be the two most active slots at that time in the thread. This read has strengthened since then, but I'll admit that I haven't been closely examining his posting recently.

snip

Look at my readslist. My two strongest scumreads are voting for my least strongest scumread. Im mulling whether I think bulge’s reasoning is satisfying or not, and clidd’s hopon to your wagon was scummy, which I’ve explained. So no, I’m not comfortable going on to your wagon at the moment.

Fair enough.

Besides 94, can you point me to any instances in your iso of substantive commentary or attempts to advance the game/your reads? (If you want a 'par for the course', I found 2 lines) While you're at it, maybe an instance of me choosing to not engage with you?

snip

how difficult is it, do you think, to come up with a post like that? do you imagine porkens toiled very long over it?

I'll include a spoiler of what I consider to be game content from me compared to what I consider to not be game content from me, but my point isn't that I've been insanely active and solvey. My point is that while I have done some mechanical speculation (it's kinda my thing) it's not the majority of what I've done nor am I hiding behind it. I'm also unsure how to quote you not doing something. I don't think either of us engaged the other, (until just now, when we're engaging with each other) and am curious as to why you chose not to if you were specifically scumreading me instead of just voting me. If you're asking about things you could have engaged me over, my stated reads would have been the obvious place to start.

As far as Porken's post, I suspect changing the formatting to be more Sherlock-esque took more effort than making the post in the first place and he's exaggerating how much effort he put into it. If I'm wrong, I still find it difficult to swallow that he chose to put that effort in on an RVS before reading the rest of the thread to see if there was something more worthy of his time to analyse.

Spoiler: Bingle ISO, with game content bolded

6. If a player has hit the daily limit and depleted their reserve, they are allowed one naked vote change per in-game Day.

@mod

: As written, this means that once your reserve is empty you may only change your vote once for the remainder of the phase. Can you clarify that this is what you intended?

I believe Agar and Porkens to be slightly more likely to be town than the rest of you.

VOTE: KMD

Come, my sheep. Jump to this new and clearly superior wagon.

I'd turbowagon the shit out of bugspray in the interest of not having a chess match in the middle of the game, tbh.

If you want to play chess, go to mishmash. Don't clutter up a game with a ruleset that is specifically designed to appeal to people who don't want to clutter up the game.

@S&K, message received. Proceed with the thingy.

Clidd is now my strongest townread.

Reckoner -> Ignorance in post 29 when referring to post 23, bad tone in general. I'm evaluating whether this is linked to his profile baseline.

i dont know who sou & kanna are, and in reading their read on me, it seemed so on-its-face ridiculous that i thought there was a good chance it was a joke

can you elaborate on "bad tone"

Sou is Datisi, Kanna is Kanna. Both are fairly new, and iirc Datisi was a Paragon contender last year.

I feel less good about Porkens

, but will suffer infinite sadness if he's not in the game anymore.

Have a pagetop, Mr. Mod.

49 serves what purpose, exactly?

It served a few purposes. It pointed out the identities of the hydra heads in case Reck actually cared (I assumed he didn't, but it didn't hurt to include that), updated the thread on the fact that I think there are scummy things coming from a slot I was previously explicitly townreading (which then allowed for people to engage me over those things if they so chose, which no one has done yet), and it bumped the thread so the mod could have the pagetop for his VC. I think that the last was clearly the most important of the three.

Also, the chess game is now defunct as one of the two participants has replaced out, so it's kind of a non issue at this point.

33 and 42 seem insincere to me. I don’t know how you get to locktown from those.

Insincere or stilted? Do you SR them, or is it just a not-a-townread?

I would be truly shocked if there is not scum on the S&K wagon, and I TR Agar. (I also TR clidd and S&K). I would be willing to vote Bspray slot, Reck, or KMD. I think Porkens has decent scum equity, but he also seems likely to amuse me and so I wouldn't vote there without being a bit more sure of myself.

@mod: my vote is currently on KMD, not Porkens, as of post 15. Thanks

I'm not at all sold on Porkens town, and I'm not a huge fan of the content of his reads list. His reasoning on AGar/MS/KMD all comes across as unwilling to commit to me, and he casts shade on clidd for not following up on his attack on bugspray in 42 when bugspray's replacement request was literally announced two posts later. Apparently I'm hiding behind the smokescreen of interacting with the mod when I'm kind of blatantly just not doing much at the moment, as well as for pocketing him by saying that I'm enjoying his posts but think they're not towny (implied, not outright stated, but this is still what I gather from his assertion that 49 was a pocketing attempt). There also seems to be a weird attempt to tie agreeing with him to being town which raises my hackles.

43 also reeks of scum motivation. He consciously puffs up his posting to seem like there's more there than there is, while the tl;dr of the post is that he's scumreading S&K for puffing up their posting to make it seem like there's more there than there is. He also uses the opportunity to cast an unannounced E-1 vote on S&K when I fully believe he knew how close to elimination the wagon was (there's a VC earlier that page). Framing the post the way he did made it more likely for an accidental hammer by far, and I think he fully knew what he was doing in doing that.

That seems like a lot.

Does it, now? I'm willing to vote in the people who I'm not townreading on a wagon I believe to have scum motivation, and you. Less so Porkens, because he's actually putting out content to engage with unprodded. Who on that list do you think I should be unwilling to vote? Why?

I stopped at post 94, as admittedly my content ratio has drastically risen since then (and including my more recent posts would be largely irrelevant to this topic). The only post that is missing is my entry to the thread which was a naked vote and a mechanical clarification for the setup.


@MS: S&K is the wrong tree for today. What are your thoughts on the rest of the thread?

[Bingle]

19 was townish on the face of being an early attempt to engage over reads, but not something you'd be unable to fake.

23 solidified the read. Dats was copying someone from a recentish shared game. A game in which I had basically had the same reaction to functionally that post from town as Reck did, tunneled on that town slot until it was mechanically proven town, and also put up a strong showing where I accurately got 2/3 scum by the end of Day 2. That game was a showcase of how difficult I can be to talk down or minimize, how difficult I can be to miseliminate, and how accurate my reads can sometimes be (they're really very hit and miss in actuality, but Dats doesn't have a ton of experience with me so I wouldn't expect him to take that into account). I also accurately called him out as town and defended him until he was hammered D1, implying that I have a strong ability to read Dats' alignment.

As such, I find it far more likely that Dats would copy that action as town hoping to inspire the same type of discussion as was in that game than that Dats would intentionally provoke a scumread onto himself from specifically me (the only overlap in the playerlist afaik) when his impression of me should be that I'm particularly dangerous to scum him. I also don't think that Dats would have put enough thought into the action to be anticipating that reaction from me as scum.

I even attempted to signal to Dats in 34 that I was thinking all of this, although I'm not sure how much of it he worked out given that the signal was pretty lowkey. When he responded that he wasn't ready to 'do the thingy' I assumed that meant he wanted me to let things play out a bit more before sharing all of this, though, and I backed off to soft defending your slot when it seemed to be under undue levels of pressure.


With all of that said, the fact that none of my detractors (or anyone else, for that matter) have commented on what should have seemed to be an unnatural defense of your slot has raised my hackles a bit.

[Bingle]

-snip-
With all of that said, the fact that none of my detractors (or anyone else, for that matter) have commented on what should have seemed to be an unnatural defense of your slot has raised my hackles a bit.

alright, I'm gonna have to discuss with Datisi on this one, but he's currently not available. What does this last part mean?

@MS: S&K is the wrong tree for today. What are your thoughts on the rest of the thread?

this also suggests you are still townreading us, yes? why so?

@Agar; why does this kmd vote matter to you so much?

i think porkens is towntowntown?

~kanna

I am still townreading you, yes, for largely the same reasons. I haven't seen anything that should make me reevaluate, although I will admit my read on you has not been a priority.

The bit about my hackles is this: If someone finds me scummy, and I am doing something odd, I would expect the person who found me scummy to call me out on that odd behavior. None of them have. Precisely 0 people have talked about how I was defending you, and that seems strange to me.

[Bingle]

snip

We know nothing on where Bingle actually stands on Porkens yet the name has been brought up a few times. I don't know, it just feels like Bingle is trying to give us a lot of words without rocking any boats.

Next, Bingle gives some scum reads but it's just the wagon and the guy voting Bingle. So... I really don't see anything more than surface level stuff here. It's also scum reads on about half the game. If a wagon pops up, Bingle really hasn't given us ANY he'd be unwilling to join except maybe clidd.

This caught my eye too:

As far as the wagon on me, I'm not particularly worried, nor will it influence the way I play the game.

It was unprompted so it seems like feeling the need to acknowledge the wagon and it seems like a downplayed way to say "I don't feel any pressure". It just feels unneeded.

:thorface: Was this an attempt to see how many blatant lies you could squeeze into a post?

First of all, I've been pretty up front that I'm scumreading Porkens, but looking to firm up my read there. The fact you can't get that from my ISO makes me wonder if you've read any of 63, 94, or 176. You know, the posts you're specifically referencing here. Second of all, yes, I would be willing to wagon most of the thread right now. Would you not be? Why would you not be? Third, the accusation that I haven't given any townreads is untrue (15, 34, etc.). Finally, your "unprompted" statement was not only prompted by clidd, but you literally snipped the quote of the prompting from the post in order to make that point.

For reference: the full quote that KMD didn't link to.

snip

Bingle is E-2, is he going to say something ?

Say it with me now... Geriatric. You should probably go read the linked Geriatric rules in the OP, because you seem to completely misunderstand them.

As far as the wagon on me, I'm not particularly worried, nor will it influence the way I play the game.

VOTE: Porkens

VOTE: KMD

@Bulge: In the interest of brevity I'm not going to quote/respond here.

I outright admit most of my early content wasn't particularly strong in the realm of substantive commentary, and if that's your problem with it, fair enough. I brought up your lack of engagement with me as an attempt to get insight into your thought process, and, you know, engage with you. 182 is where Porkens talked about the effort that went into his Freudian analysis, but I frankly agree with him that further analysis there is a waste of both of our times. I questioned it, he responded with an answer, and I found that answer unsatisfactory. If he's lying, he's not about to jump up and admit to it, and I'm not suddenly going to find the answer satisfactory. I also disagree with there being implied town arrogance in my 200 as I made a point of the context there being Datisi seeing me in an uncommonly strong showing as the reason his treatment of me is town indicative. I also do, very much, believe that there is at least one scum on my wagon.

What do you make of KMD's 224?

[Bingle]

Bingle you snipped the part of my post that shows I was talking about your Porkens read in one early post and not now. I never said we don't know your CURRENT Porkens read. Dirty move from someone accusing me of lying lol.

I snipped, and noted the place I snipped from, a section of your post where you talked about how me voting Porkens in RVS was scummy, and then brought up every non game indicative thing I did in the thread. But sure, lets assume that "We don't know where Bingle stands on Porkens" was supposed to be a statement about specifically the early part of the thread and not a blanket statement.

I RVS voted Porkens in 6, flat out said that I was townleaning Porkens in 15, stated that my townread had weakened on Porkens but that I didn't want to eliminate him due to my enjoyment of his posts in 49 and doubled down with the exact words "Porkens has decent scum equity" in 63. There was literally one post in that sequence not included, which was 34. So, pray tell, where was I unclear on my Porkens read? And before you accuse me of going too far with my inclusions again, post 63 is one of the posts in which I talked about the chess game, which was specifically a problem you had BEFORE you mentioned my Porkens read being unclear.

So... What about all the actual lying you did? No comment?

@S&K: The thing I take away from the lack of pointing out that my interactions with you were weird is that the people pushing me aren't reading me particularly closely. That in itself isn't very scum indicative because town skims all the time, but when someone then tries to show how in depth their read on me actually is (like KMD just did) it definitely makes me think they're making shit up. I don't think it particularly makes you scum, nor do I think you would have thought that the interaction was weird because, y'know, you were the other person in the thread looking at the same picture I was.

The question here is, with so many people trying to sell me as scum, why didn't any of them bring up the awkward signalling I didn't even try to hide? That's not a rhetorical question, btw. I genuinely want an answer from my wagon.


Bingle's Current Readslist:

Bingle
S&K
Agar
Clidd
MS
Reck - null line
Bulge
Porkens
KMD

[Bingle]

That seems like a lot.

Does it, now? I'm willing to vote in the people who I'm not townreading on a wagon I believe to have scum motivation, and you. Less so Porkens, because he's actually putting out content to engage with unprodded. Who on that list do you think I should be unwilling to vote? Why?

Second of all, yes, I would be willing to wagon most of the thread right now. Would you not be? Why would you not be? Third, the accusation that I haven't given any townreads is untrue (15, 34, etc.). Finally, your "unprompted" statement was not only prompted by clidd, but you literally snipped the quote of the prompting from the post in order to make that point.

@KMD: still want an answer to these, btw. I'd also appreciate an explanation of how all of your provably false statements were not lies.

I'd also like to hear from bulge whether he thinks that KMD wasn't lying, and why, but I'd prefer that happen afterwards.

@Reck: I wouldn't have half as much issue with Porkens if he hadn't put S&K to E-1 in a way I found scummy. I have addressed this multiple times, but that is why what he did was scummy. The explanation he gave was subpar in my opinion, but that's not why the action was scummy in the first place.

Spoiler: MULTIPLE TIMES

He also uses the opportunity to cast an unannounced E-1 vote on S&K when I fully believe he knew how close to elimination the wagon was (there's a VC earlier that page). Framing the post the way he did made it more likely for an accidental hammer by far, and I think he fully knew what he was doing in doing that.

A note, my actual accusation, the meat of the scumread here, was that Porkens made a whole lot of something out of that post in order to put S&K at E-1 without announcing that it was an E-1 vote. Which... remains true.

You explained the rest (here: the majority of the issue with your posting) in

In post 116, Porkens wrote:
Complete transparency I did not look at the vote count or count votes before I posted with my vote. However, after I made that post, I read the rest of the thread and saw that I had put Souk at e-1. I considered taking it down, but then decided just to leave it and see what came of it.


as little more than an aside several posts after your initial defense. Which tells me that you wanted to paint the accusation as being more about the tone and context of the original than about the real scum motivation present. I am aware of that defense, and also find it wholly unsatisfying. I'm also not here to convince you you're scum, but to convince everyone else of my PoV.

[Bingle]

@Bingle you seem almost as ontop of this game as your avatar is when protecting that king of his. Do you usually play like that as either alignment?

I must confess, I have no idea what my avatar is. I lost a SUPP bet and this is the avatar that was chosen for me after the mod team decided the original choice was too lewd for an avatar. (It was very boobsy). I don't anime often (ever).

As I understand it, though, the question is whether I put this much effort into all of my games and whether it's AI for me. The answer is no and slightly. I'm slightly more likely to tryhard as scum than town, and effort is more a indicator of mood for me, although admittedly there is some value to be gleaned in how my mood relates to the game for people who know me well.

@KMD: The answer you have is a bit of a cop out, considering I took the original statement as accusatory in nature. Do you think being willing to vote many different people is scummy, and if so, why? Do you only ever vote for people you think are lockscum? Are there no valid reasons to vote null reads? Who do you think I should have had as a locktown as of now, and why?

@Reck: Yes, it is commonly expected that sudden E-1 votes, especially early ones, come with a form of acknowledgement nowadays. E-1 announcements started being a thing before my first newbie in 2013, so...

Do you disagree with my premise that Porken's analysis of S&K's RVS vote and subsequent E-1 vote was scummy because it was an E-1 vote that was overdone, or just that it was an E-1 vote that was overdone? If it's the latter, I doubt attempting to convince you on that will bear fruit, as I've already beaten that horse to death. If it's the former, why isn't that behavior scum indicative?

@Agar: Are you intentionally still voting S&K, and if so is it still because of the joke readslist? What do you make of the fact S&K has seen this exact style of joke readslist before, and my argument that they would be less likely to copy it as scum because the only person who they know has seen it deathtunneled it last time?

[Bingle]

What a weird question. Why should I tell you what your reads are? I'll make observations on your reads, but you asking me what they should be is just plain weird. Personally, I don't have any locktown yet. But I'm not interested in eliminating clidd or Michael Scott today. Sou, Reck and Agar, it would take work to get me to vote there. Porkens and Bulge I'd vote over any of those.

Because your assertion was that it was weird for me to be suspecting 4 people?

You, apparently, are willing to vote 3, could be talked into voting for three more, and might change your mind on the other two. Does that not sound like a position where you could pivot your vote to many different people? In comparison, I mentioned 4 that I'd be willing to vote (with the supporting reasoning of wagonomics), 2 that I was soft townreading, one that I had a stronger townread on, and was actively defending the last person. So again, what is your issue with me being willing to vote so many people when you claim to be in a very similar position?

In case it's not obvious, I think your entire push on me is disingenuous. I'm pushing to try to understand your logic, because maybe I'm wrong, but I think you're pushing me as scum for things you don't actually think are scummy.

The e-1 thing is a shitty tell, I’ll say that. As scum I’m waaaaaaaaaaay more careful with how my vote looks. I understand it might be :good play: to anno8nce it as not to give scum an excuse to quickhamme but as a scumtell it’s just flat stupid.

Perhaps. I'm not married to the read. I'm also not going to give it up when I don't think any of your answers are incredibly convincing. Regardless, you're definitely doing enough that I don't think I need to draw out participation in order to read you better, so I'm content to let it simmer and reevaluate somewhere down the line.

[Bingle]

I mean your post to me sounded like a "meh any of these 4-5 is fine". I want to eliminate you. I'd be satisfied with The Bulge. Porkens I'd be compromising. Anything after that is be doing reluctantly if there was no other choice. You're also acting like this was my only reason to suspect you which just isn't true.

Your reasons for suspecting me according to 224:

I didn't bandwagon with my RVS vote.
I, in addition to talking about the game, expressed distaste over the chess and pointed out mod errors to the mod.
"We know nothing about where Bingle stands on Porkens" which is provably untrue and obviously so to anyone paying even a little bit of attention.
I don't want to rock boats.
Outright lies about a post not being a response to anything and thus objectionable.


Are there any other reasons? Because reasons 1 and 2 are nonsense, 3 is the exact opposite of the truth, 4 is laughable given that I've spent the entire game townreading the two wagons most likely to go through other than yours and mine, and the last is provably fabricated. So yes, I don't think you have a real reason to suspect me and are just looking to secure a mislynch.

[Bingle]

And you continue to not answer when I ask you to correct me.

Are there any other reasons?

I'm not going to take your word when you tell me I'm wrong, because I'm not a moron. If you actually have other reasons to scumread me then town you would want to actually make them known, but they simply don't seem to exist. You're avoiding any engagement on the topic. When I point out your lies, your response is "I don't lie". When I point out that the only reasons you've given for scumreading me are shit reasons, your response is "You can't tell me what my opinions are!" The flail is real. You can't defend yourself because there is no defense, and you're hoping no one reads the thread closely enough to notice.

[Bingle]

I mean your post to me sounded like a "meh any of these 4-5 is fine". I want to eliminate you. I'd be satisfied with The Bulge. Porkens I'd be compromising. Anything after that is be doing reluctantly if there was no other choice. You're also acting like this was my only reason to suspect you which just isn't true.

Your reasons for suspecting me according to 224:

I didn't bandwagon with my RVS vote.¹
I, in addition to talking about the game, expressed distaste over the chess and pointed out mod errors to the mod.²
"We know nothing about where Bingle stands on Porkens" which is provably untrue and obviously so to anyone paying even a little bit of attention.³
I don't want to rock boats.⁴
Outright lies about a post not being a response to anything and thus objectionable.⁵


Are there any other reasons? Because reasons 1 and 2 are nonsense, 3 is the exact opposite of the truth, 4 is laughable given that I've spent the entire game townreading the two wagons most likely to go through other than yours and mine, and the last is provably fabricated. So yes, I don't think you have a real reason to suspect me and are just looking to secure a mislynch.

Agar,

I originally voted Bingle on page 1 because they seemed scared to be associated with the clidd wagon.¹ They voted elsewhere and didn't acknowledge the "wagon". Granted it's two votes, but those were the only two posts of the game which forces the next poster to ask do I vote with the wagon? Do I vote someone on the wagon? The exception is if Bingle came in with a joke vote that was pre-planned before game start. I don't see that in the Porkens vote, which Bingle abandons to OMGUS me.

Bingles next couple of posts just feel like posts for the sake of posts. The callout of the chess game, non-read on Porkens, info on who Hydra pairs are, and pagetop comment to the Mod do nothing for the game.² It's common knowledge that a chess game in a mafia game thread just doesn't belong. We know nothing on where Bingle actually stands on Porkens yet the name has been brought up a few times.³ I don't know, it just feels like Bingle is trying to give us a lot of words without rocking any boats.⁴

Next, Bingle gives some scum reads but it's just the wagon and the guy voting Bingle. So... I really don't see anything more than surface level stuff here. It's also scum reads on about half the game. If a wagon pops up, Bingle really hasn't given us ANY he'd be unwilling to join except maybe clidd.

This caught my eye too:

As far as the wagon on me, I'm not particularly worried, nor will it influence the way I play the game.

It was unprompted so it seems like feeling the need to acknowledge the wagon and it seems like a downplayed way to say "I don't feel any pressure". It just feels unneeded.⁵

Show me what I made up. I even linked what I think you said to what your actual words were that conveyed that meaning to me, so it should be really easy.

Show me how 3 is not a lie, given that I've pointed out that my Porkens read is the sole read I've been most explicit in explaining.
Show me how you justify 4.
Show me how this is not a reaction to something.

Bingle is E-2, is he going to say something ?

Say it with me now... Geriatric. You should probably go read the linked Geriatric rules in the OP, because you seem to completely misunderstand them.

As far as the wagon on me, I'm not particularly worried, nor will it influence the way I play the game.

@Everyone who is not voting KMD: Why?

[Bingle]

The other reason, for completeness:

I mean your post to me sounded like a "meh any of these 4-5 is fine". I want to eliminate you. I'd be satisfied with The Bulge. Porkens I'd be compromising. Anything after that is be doing reluctantly if there was no other choice. You're also acting like this was my only reason to suspect you which just isn't true.

The post in question.

I would be truly shocked if there is not scum on the S&K wagon, and I TR Agar. (I also TR clidd and S&K). I would be willing to vote Bspray slot, Reck, or KMD. I think Porkens has decent scum equity, but he also seems likely to amuse me and so I wouldn't vote there without being a bit more sure of myself.

Note, things I express in the post about how “I’d be willing to vote anyone”:

I have 3 townreads.
I would vote 3 players based on them being on a shit wagon.
I scumread but am reluctant to vote a 4th player (Porkens).

Note, things kmd has claimed I expressed:

I would be willing to eliminate all but one player in the game.
I want to vote 4-5 players based on the logic of “meh”.
I am obscuring my read of Porkens.

Note, kmds narrative contains nothing resembling truth and his defense against that is “I don’t lie.”

[Bingle]

@Bingle: I don't see much of a reason why KMD is scum. I don't see much in the way of scum motivation in his posts.

The scum motivation is active lurking. He RVS voted me and just kind of sat there while the wagon grew. When confronted about it, he made up a bunch of shit. When confronted about said shit, he ducked every question and dug his heels in while spouting a false narrative to try to get me eliminated. There's been no attempt to form a real read on me or he'd have known that all of the shit he's been spouting is shit.

Reck used the phrase "too scummy to be scum" but that's a bullshit reason to townread someone. If it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck I'm not going to assume it's a witch. Even if he is town, he's proven to me thoroughly he's not interested in actually solving the game and is at best a liability that I will shed 0 tears over.

That's not all though. From a wagonomics perspective, why would town KMD be this hard to eliminate? He's provably lying about his attempts to sort, at least as regards me, literally the only slot he's voted. For some reason, despite all the shit he's pulled to get support for a disingenuous wagon on me and despite me pushing hard for his elimination, no one wants to pursue him.


As far as Bell goes, Reck, you're gonna have to convince me harder than that. 33 shows that 23 obviously went over clidd's head. If they were scum together, I'd expect literally anything other than that response. If clidd scum and S&K town, I wouldn't expect clidd to bother with an analysis of where he agreed with S&K, especially in the immediate wake of you pointing out that he had 'serious reads' on people who hadn't even posted yet and two other people jumping on S&K for being scummy. Porkens brought up that his longer posts read as awkward (and was right) but as he switched to spamposting he came across as more and more natural. This leads me to believe the awkwardness was from trying to change his posting style to match the geriatric format and thus not AI, and I feel the timing of the replace out reinforces that.

I also think the slayer's gambit in 97 and the paranoia about people townreading him are both >rand town. 111 where he just kind of gives up also seems more town than not to me, and I agreed (then and now) that the wagon on S&K wasn't pure. More than that, it read as genuine. Even while giving up, though, he still did what he could to put thoughts in the thread and be productive. Bell's been pushing for content, although he's done nothing I don't think he'd be able to fake. I kind of liked his scumread but wait and see stance with me (it gets none of the towncred and all of the suspicion of actually pushing me when/if I flip, but also doesn't really advance the agenda of actually flipping me). I'm also not sure what Bulge has done that made him so town pushing him is scummy fypov and don't think Bulge presents as an easy elimination in any sense so I don't think the bulge push is all that objectionable.

[Bingle]

okay, i dont choose to convince you harder than that bc tbh i am not sure you're actually town? idk. it's 330am and im drunk and the response to my points on clidd being "convince me harder" arent exactly compelling for me.

It strikes me as odd that you're trying to form a EoD flashwagon that you personally feel strongly about and you won't expand on your reasoning, but okay. What do you make of my reasons for townreading Bellclidd?

@Klick: Where have people been shading Agar? I kind of thought he was a consensus tr and I don't really remember anyone expressing suspicion about him before now.

[Bingle]

I'm not a JK or motion detector. Motion detector should claim here because the only result they can get at this point is that KMD targeted someone.

[Bingle]

you mean, motion detector should claim here because it's a direct counterclaim to the jailkeeper?

It's a direct cc to JK AND there's no utility to the role with a player who would be confscum to the MD. Without the combination of (without claiming MD gets no information tonight) and (MD claim is a direct CC) there's an argument to just leave the confscum alone to be revisited when they don't die.

I'm still gonna hold out hope that there's a cc though.

[Bingle]

If you're town you can still maybe save yourself by correct guessing who the person making the nightkill is.

Speaking of, you need to make a post about who you will target tonight if we flip a scum with the elimination so that they'll be conftown if we flip a scum with the elimination and you die anyway, just in case.

[Bingle]

In specifically the case with 1 scum remaining, any player who is targeted by a JK on the night of a kill is conftown. Therefore, KMD, if town needs to say “I will target {person} if we eliminate scum today.” Then, if we actually do hit a scum elimination, we have a conftown player or scum doesn’t make a kill that night.

Obviously if we don’t eliminate scum TownKMD would need to jailkeep to stay alive, which means not announcing his target.

Honestly I’m not sure how I feel about S&K anymore. I was sure that the fake read list was a MD crumb because mena flipped tracker in the game where he did that and the last few posts in that thread are all about crumbing.

[Bingle]

An outed JK still has massive utility if we only have one scum remaining. (See 407 if you don't understand why.) A MD has very limited utility unless we have only one scum remaining. We 100% want a CC today if there is one to be had.

I feel pretty good about Klick, although I'm not sure how much of that is me connecting with her playstyle. The quick jump in and the push to analyse the thread both come across as town to me though.

This isn't true, is it? Motion Detector basically works as a Tracker if no other PRs are around, no?
Still think it would be correct to claim regardless.

Sou and Kanna slot isn't scum, I'm like 90+% sure on that read. I'm lining up with their read on the game really easily and it makes me think they're town who thought the same things I did while reading.

wrt the tracker bit, exactly. If there's a Motion Detector, KMD is necessarily scum. Therefore, KMD will likely be making the NK. That means that the motion detector would only be able to get a guilty on KMD tonight, which is useless because the motion detector would already have a guilty on KMD (his claim). I didn't consider earlier the case that the other scum would make the kill because of the opportunity for it to be a JK only setup (A) but this doesn't really solve anything because as stated above, JK should absolutely claim here.

I accidentally snipped the bugspray bit and I don't think it's worth the effort to reinsert it, but I had thought they repped out because people (me and reck) got mad about them trying to play chess in a geriatric game and thus it was NAI. I'd be interested in further exploring your theory if there was a way I could see to do it, but unfortunately there's no way to ask bspray why they noped out.

I'm not sure what the lack of CC from S&K means for my read there, but given that I was wrong about the post being a crumb (or they were scum leaving a fake crumb) I have no reason to keep that card close to my chest anymore. I definitely haven't really been trying to sort S&K though otherwise because I thought the signalling to me was a very good sign and I knew I didn't want to yeet them today.

[Bingle]

UNVOTE:

Who knows bugspray and is sure you're town, and why?

That honestly seems like an interesting angle to pursue if the bugspray reps out more frequently as scum line is true.

[Bingle]

Both wagons E-2 and I don't want to choose...

Fuck this noise.

Bulge/KMD isn't a scumteam possibility. Bulge would know Reck is JK or MD, and either way 437 would be a concession post.

I'm half tempted to try to flashwagon outside of the FN's and let night actions resolve them, but I really doubt we have enough participation to do so. I'm also not sure who I'd choose.

I'll be around to hammer I guess, but I'm not sure which way I lean and I'm open to arguments.

[Bingle]

What does no elim do here?

KMD probably dies (1/8 to hit scum), we're pretty much guaranteed to hit scum tomorrow.

If we elim scum today, KMD dies for sure, I'm conftown, and we have two ICs in a 7p.

If we elim FN today KMD has a 1/8 to hit scum.

If KMD scum I think we're in autowin? If KMD saves himself I think we're in autowin too. So we definitely want to eliminate today.

Fuckit.

Sorry if this is the wrong choice, Bulge.

VOTE: Bulge

[Bingle]

Oh, shit that actually was the hammer. I thought S&K was already on wagon and 434 was a revote.

[Bingle]

I legitimately didn't log in to this account because I assumed the day would be over before I got prodded.

I guess I'll check for relevant things.

[Bingle]

I'll jail reck. If I die he's town.

I mean, if anyone dies he's town, right?

Aye.

Looool I suck.

No-kill gambit is entirely plausible in this scenario - it's got a 5/7 shot of practically guaranteeing a misfloss if Kmd targeted a townie, and they gain the kill back eventually because we're on evens.

There are plenty of people who don't make much sense as SK's partner, this game should practically be a lock. I highly doubt AGar goes for the hard bus all day yesterday. Still think it's super doubtful that it's Bell.
That leaves {Reck, MS, Bingle} in about that order. And I don't really think it's Bingle.

I'd also like to posit that 'blatantly buddying my scumbuddy' isn't a strat I'd be likely to go for as scum replacing into this game lol.

No kill gambit would be hilarious, but it's really not worth worrying over for town. See y'all tomorrow.


VOTE: S&K

[Bingle]

Also, for the record, I'm not sure why you guys waited for me to post. There's nothing to be said today that I couldn't say tomorrow and scum killing me over a claimed JK is laughably bad play.

[Bingle]

I requested a fast night, and if you all do the same I suspect that Ari will oblige.

[Bingle]

Be sure to tell Ari the fast night thing by PM.

Technically speaking scum could want to lie about wanting a fast night for some obscure reason, I guess, so it would be bad modding for Ari to just take our word for it from here.

[Bingle]

Technically speaking we need KMD to pick a target for tonight in case scum is shitting the bed hardcore here.

[Bingle]

Any thoughts on who's

evil

dumb enough to do that?

Scum gains literally nothing from no killing there. They give us a free miselim and a conftown. We are just in a strictly better position than we would be if town reck is being framed.

Which... should prove that I'm town, because I don't gamethrow and I clearly understand how that works.

VOTE: reck

Simple answer is just that reck is scum though.

[Bingle]

Was the PR crumb I picked up intentional, Dats? It definitely made me protect you harder than I should have, and made me a lot less trusting of KMD. Agree with Reck that we got PR carried a bit here, but tbh that's the way micros go sometimes.

GG all, WP. Glad KMD could win the game for me Thanks Ari for the modding!

[Bingle]

The Bulge hammer actually was accidental, btw. I was trying to hammer test him, and legitimately thought S&K's vote was a revote. I hadn't decided that I wanted him over S&K at that point, although I have to guess that I eventually would have.

[Bingle]

It wasn't random. You hinted at being a power role near the end of Day 1 which was no longer possible after the flip.

I think he was more talking about the 50/50 shot between the two scum, although tbf, it's not actually a 50/50.

But actually though, it's a fair point that the confirmed scum probably won't be jailed due to wifom.

It's a Nash Equilibrium, actually.

JK targeting nonconfscum has a 1/7 chance of hitting the scum. JK targeting the confscum has a 100% chance of hitting scum.

Setting that up as a 2x2 Matrix, you get every outcome of the nightphase, and you can work out mathematically exactly how often scum *should* have the kill performed by the confirmed party. Not that that number really means much in the long run.

[Bingle]

Subject: Micro 962: Geriatric Trio II Scum PT

ok here is a very dumb meme i made in paint dot net now instead of sleeping even tho it's like 2am (send help for my sleep schedule):

Spoiler:

Probably a bit nicer to me than is strictly deserved, but that meme is excellent.

Scum and dead threads not long enough.