Newbie 2025 | Lilies | Game Over

[Casey]

Hi! I'm replacing in for MagikHorse!

Time to whip this game into shape.

Initial question is how do we have 12 days left in a 7-day day?

Reading now.

[Casey]

It's hard to believe that the internet has been available in homes for over 19 years already. The dot-com bubble exploded and hatched a new internet like a phoenix.

I really hope Mush's last name is Fraudulence.

I have to run to Target now to pick up some dish scrapers bfore i can do the dishes. My GF is in a bad mood today.

NAI but I just wanted to say thank you for this expression of solidarity in your relationship.

VOTE: MUSHSHAGANA

Reason: OMGUS!!!

Uhhh can you please try to steer away from using that as a reason? While we're still in RVS (or are we?), I find that reason to always be poor and/or scum-indicative.

I like this post because it's the first one that breaks from RVS.

Good point! MUSHSHAGANA voted for me. I am town. Therefore, Mush must be scum. Therefore, I vote for Mush. Facts. Logic. No emotional reaction whatsoever on my part.

Ugh.

This post made me actually check who was alive and dead because I hoped I wouldn't have to read into this mischievous attitude.

Looks like I won't find out about MESH's middle name.

My username is Sumerian using a very basic transliteration scheme. Under the standard scheme, it's muš-šag-ana, "Something In The Heart Of Empty Space", literally "'empty space'-'inside, at the heart of'-'What?'"

You can think of it as a rough translation of the sentence "There's something out there in the void." Sumerian is agglutinative, so it makes a single word for simple phrases like that. It's not a reference to anything, it's one of a short list of "names" of my own design that I am fond of.

That is so freaking cool!

I can't use mixedCase naming conventions anymore, because Homestuck ruined them.

I take back everything I said.

Can the living players be quotable please?

I am trying to generate information from the questioning. So you think that's a problem.

Something I want to point out is how Redados is scummy to me.
He started with LAMIST (saying it's cryptography), turns the thread into the general discussion forum, then votes with the reason of OMGUS. I would like to hear more from you, because I don't like how you are playing - a different vibe from your last towngame.

I'm not going to apologize for goofing around in RVS.

Confidence. I like it.

You can make the statement that certain types of actions in RVS aren't useful, and that's certainly true. In what you quoted, I'm not saying "I get a free pass because it's RVS". I'm saying that it's NAI because it's RVS. Those are two different discussions in my opinion.

Saying that this behavior is NAI because it's RVS is the same thing as saying you shouldn't be read off of it, which is just another way of saying "gimme a pass on this behavior, it means nothing". They're one and the same.

Why do you think this is NAI anyways?

I disagree. RVS is a time where you goof off and vote randomly, and then you learn from people's reactions to those random votes. Once people start reacting, RVS is over and then the goofing off ends.

In my opinion, overanalyzing RVS actions is unnecessary because the valuable information is in the

reactions

to the RVS. I could post as the first post of the game the words, "I am scum" and that is NAI because it's RVS.

OMGUS and LAMIST are scumtells, so I won't ever get to do them outside of RVS. I did them (in a tongue-in cheek way - as I literally said "LAMIST" and "OMGUS" in my posts, thus acknowledging them) because I thought it was funny and didn't matter. I still think that they are funny and that they don't matter.

NAI = Not Alignment Indicative

A bad reaction in RVS is totally possible. I believe you believe what you say you believe though.

Sorry peeps. Weekends are pretty tough for me as I like to spend the weekend with family; hiking, camping, fishing, kayaking, etc. so most of the time I’m out the house or I’m in a poor data area. I just wanted to quickly put down my thoughts before I’m gone for most of the day.

So far what stands out to me:

Frogsterking said he’d be back after he washed the dishes. He hasn’t returned yet so he must have either had a whole lotta dishes or his girlfriend said he can’t play with his friends, for not doing those dishes. Can’t wait for him to return and tell us what happened.

MUSHSHAGANA is someone I like. So far her posting and overall vibe seems good to me. Her push onto Redados seems genuine and I can’t really question it, but after playing with Redados he did play this loose as town. I can admit however that the LAMIST and OMGUS stuff was careless, but I could actually see town!Redados play this way. Shelly knows this. Unfortunately I don’t know how he would play as scum so take that as you will.

Shelly is back to her repeat posting from last game when she was scum. And by repeat posting I mean she says exactly what the other player says, almost word for word. As I pointed out.

Redados has put himself in a pretty tough position with his play so far. For now I’m gonna semi-town read him because while I wouldn’t put it past scum!Redados to play this way, I’m not sure how likely it is.

That’s it so far. I’m okay with leaving my vote on shelly at the moment. As I said I’ll be gone. Any questions asked I’ll answer when I can. Peace.

This post seems sane.

How I think about mafia-type games (mafia, secret hitler, werewolf, etc.): I think players who play this genre develop a style over time (and with it a preference for different formats of the game and situations which occur within those games). One way I think about the style-difference is if the player is logical vs behavioral, logical being that they focus on making the highest percentage play in the situation and behavioral focusing on minutiae of what the other players are saying and attempting to find hidden indicators of the players alignment. I think logical players tend to excel in fields like law, accounting, medicine, and is linked with a personality trait from the big five called Conscientiousness. These guys excel in setups that have many mechanics and require more detailed technical knowledge of the game and the format it is being played in. I believe behavioral players are linked with a personality trait also from the big five called Openness to experience and as such often have some kind of arts background. They excel in setups such as this one without many complex mechanics and the possibility of low info lylo situations with no clears. Most players eventually develop some traits of both even if they heavily lean one way.

I think people also have different communication styles they prefer which i think about as analytical, accommodating, and assertive. Most of us will use each of these styles but have a default one we prefer. We tend to be more receptive when others talk in our default state or the one we're in at the moment.

Another trait from the big five I think about a lot while playing games these types of games is agreeable vs disagreeable, which means how likely you are to be trusting, cooperate, empathetic vs skeptical, competitive and distrusting.

I think the way you came to your reads is super cool. Not quoting it all because it's huge and this post is getting long already.

As for myself, I'd say I'm a highly-behavioral player, assertive with the compassion to be accommodating. For the last set, IDK. I call out BS and protect my townbabies like a momma bear. Is that agreeable or disagreeable?

Can you guess my career too?

Also I agree with the "use all the time allotted" mindset, since mafia find it much more difficult to keep up a facade. That being said I acknowledge my hubris causes me to disobey this mindset in a tic.

Quiet scum is scum we can't catch.

Smack those hornet nests. They'll show themselves to be hornets eventually.

Mostly feeling good about Frog and Red.

Want more posts from different people about game-related things instead of theory.

Yes, I was scum that game. However I have rolled town in this game, and I have actually made an effort to not rephrase / repeat what others have said.

I started off by asking a few questions to generate info during RVS (Why Frogster didn't vote during RVS, why discussion became general)
I then pushed Redados and called him scummy twice. I was also being aggressive towards Redados. I also made reads on several players.

Call it anxiety or paranoia, but I’m not gonna feel comfortable with you until you are flipped and we know what your true alignment is.

I haven't been repeat posting. They thought Mush's push was geninue, but questions my push? This is contradictory. Still, I don't know how much of that is AI.

I didn’t question your push. I’m not even really uneasy about you because of your push. It’s really because of our recent history. And can you really deny the similarities of 23 and 34 and say that I shouldn’t be wary of it.

You're on notice.

You said all this last game. I don’t think our back and forth is helping the town here.

It bugs me when people say "the town." It sounds so self-exclusionary.

Fredrick A Campbell replaces Tatsuya Kaname.

Hey again.

I don't see much to comment on for now. If anyone would like my comment on anything, feel free to make a post on the matter.

This is the most phoned-in intro ever. Like it was phoned in on an actual phone.

Props to Shelly for calling this out.

Who do you think is scummiest now, or are you not having reads yet?

I think you have behaved the scummiest of all the players who have posted. However, I don't really think that is as relevant as whom I think is most likely to be scum.

The scummiest person is the person calling you out. Brilliant.

What is the reason you regard me as scummy?

You seemed more concerned about being right than winning the game.

How are these mutually exclusive?

Ugh. Reading the rest of page 6 just makes me mad y'all dunked the towniest voice in this entire game. I'm resonating with every one of her posts.

Moving on.

[Casey]

However, I don't think it necessarily means she is a mafioso, just an egotistical person. shellyc, describing you as egotistical is not meant as an insult, but just a description.

Upon further reconsideration of shellyc's personality reflected by her posts, I think she thought I was looking for a fight. Really makes her actions extremely non-alignment indicative.

Wait what?

[Casey]

Eh okay. It jives.

[Casey]

I thought and think that the behaviour is scummy, but probably not-alignment indicative.

How do you define "scummy" if not as "indicative of scum"?

[Casey]

I feel like the combination of his username and sales background could make Italiano seem scummy subconsciously to others sometimes

As someone scumreading Italiano, I have to pause and consider if these are implicit biases of mine.

I don't think they are.

[Casey]

Hi! I'm replacing in for MagikHorse!

Time to whip this game into shape.

Initial question is how do we have 12 days left in a 7-day day?

Reading now.

That was an unusually fast townread.
Welcome to the town Casey!

[Casey]

Now with actually typing in the right area:

Hi! I'm replacing in for MagikHorse!

Time to whip this game into shape.

Initial question is how do we have 12 days left in a 7-day day?

Reading now.

That was an unusually fast townread.
Welcome to the town Casey!

[Casey]

What the heck

[Casey]

Hi! I'm replacing in for MagikHorse!

Time to whip this game into shape.

Initial question is how do we have 12 days left in a 7-day day?

Reading now.

Welcome to the town Casey!

That was an unusually fast townread.

[Casey]

Yeah. (ignoring last game) this game Shelly has been pretty active and pushing. I don't necessarily agree with her pushes because she reaallly does not like being scumread. I am still scumreading her.

(using last game) I don't agree with Shelly's constant pushing because she was doing that last game; she kept yelling at MiniMegabyte for "scumslipping" (Mini was town). I think it's not helpful to latch onto small things and use them to justify a scumread. Sometimes you have a feeling you can't justify, but I think it's disingenuous to pull weak justification for your scumread. In retrospect, I may have done that with my initial scumread of Shelly, so I'm revising my scumread from a justified one to a gut one.

(ignoring last game) ItalianoVD has not been super active but he's posted enough. He's given reads and had conversations with people. I don't really have a handle on his alignment yet.

(using last game) something someone else said about how Italiano's playstyle might make him look scummier than he is resonates with me. I spent a lot of last game oscillating back and forth whether Italiano was scum or town and my impression is that he could hide it well enough if he were scum. It makes me scared to townread him or scumread him, although I'm townreading him now. I do feel like he was more active and off-the-cuff last game, but I haven't gone back and really ISOd and compared, which I will do at some point.

Hmm..

I hope there's more than just a "Hmm" to this at this point. Otherwise you just assigned busywork with the sole intention of killing a conversation.

[Casey]

That was off the cuff so I'm curious to hear your reaction.

Yo, way to hold him to it. Thumbs up.

[Casey]

I think I'm getting strong town vibe from MUSHSHAGANA.

UNVOTE: MUSHSHAGANA

I literally never remember seeing your name before this.

[Casey]

How do you have only 10 posts so far? I replaced in 2 hours ago and my ISO is already larger than yours.

[Casey]

Oh lordy this game.

I've got a townread, a scumread, two unknowns, and two nobodies.

[Casey]

Oh good, Lavar shows up soon.

[Casey]

Let x be the probability that all 3 mafioso are in 5 random players.

x = 10/13*9/12*3/11*2/10*1/9 + 10/13*3/12*9/11*2/10*1/9* + 10/13*3/12*2/11*9/10*1/9 + 10/13*3/12*2/11*1/10*9/9 + 3/13*10/12*9/11*2/10*1/9 + 3/13*10/12*2/11*9/10*1/9 + 3/13*10/12*2/11*1/10*9/9 + 3/13*2/12*10/11*9/10*1/9 + 3/13*2/12*10/11*1/10*9/9 + 3/13*2/12*1/11*10/10*9/9
= 10 ((10*9*3*2*1)/(13*12*11*10*9))
= 5/143 ≈ 3.50%

I scumread people who do math.

[Casey]

Hey Frederick, I just thought of a couple of questions for you! Mainly because you replaced in recently and I noticed you had just finished moderating a game.

1) Have you noticed anything telling about lobbies on this site where all of the scum players became among the top 5 most active players in the game on D1?

and

2) Have you noticed anything telling about lobbies on this site where all of the scum players became among the top 5 most townread players in the game on D1?

After going through all that trouble of answering one of you questions, I have got to know what was the point of these questions?

Another call-out. I must've missed the answer to the last one.

[Casey]

I've been giving myself a little time away so I can get a fresh look at things. I plan on posting my preferred D1 lunch candidate list tonight or tomorrow morning and a separate list for any players I tr. I plan on responding to posts by Mush, Redados and Frederick.

I'm holding you to this.

[Casey]

Ugh, all this talk about voting preferences, theory, and other meta topics are putting me to sleep.

[Casey]

Here's the full research if you want to read:

https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... _Detection

I read that paper and I'm significantly disappointed that none of my four favorite scumtells were analyzed.

1. Forming common activity suggestions solely as questions instead of statements. This one is frighteningly good. (e.g. "Are we good with voting X?" instead of "Let's vote X y'all.")

Stop trying to avoid taking a stance, scum.

2. Using temporary qualifiers for things that shouldn't be temporary. (e.g. "X is my top scumread for now.")

Why "for now?" Are you planning on changing it soon?

3. Using math, specifically to determine who is best to vote. In an endgame scenario, this one is surprisingly good. (e.g. "If we vote off X, that gives us a 5/7 chance in the last two days, rather than a 3/7 chance.")

Okay but why are you letting math override your scumread?

4. Using "honest" or related words when opining. This one is commonly just a NAI filler word, but it helps make folks sweat when they get called out on it. (e.g. "Honestly, I think X is scum." instead of "I think X is scum.")

Were you being dishonest prior to now?

Mostly what I do is get reads from my gut and call out BS when I see it.

[Casey]

I double-checked my research on syntax this afternoon and was mixed up about sentence length and pronouns; longer sentences and use of the second-person were negatively correlated with scum not positively.

NEEEEEERRRRRRRRRRD

[Casey]

MagikHorse, can I get your opinion of Italiano's play? My take is: emotionally charged reasoning presenting with logical face. His play is also centered on himself -- which manifests as Always Right (unwillingness to concede lost points, unwillingness to cooperate with other players, etc), and deeply entrenched reads (taking subjective view as objective truth).

I actually see the opposite. The amount of times he's dropped a conversation with "Fair enough" or "I guess we'll just have to disagree" would be a workout program if he dropped that many pounds instead.

[Casey]

I'm going to post my first public read: I think Frogsterking is town. If he isn't town, he's unreadable. I think his playstyle edges a bit toward anti-town overall, he's focused on game-solving over scum-hunting, but scum has no reason to give town a weapon like that paper. Arguably against their win condition to do so.

1. Did you read the paper? Arguably the only thing tangible it highlights as a scumtell is a reduced activity level, and it doesn't take a...

twenty-fold stratified shuffle split

to figure that out.

2. I think he seems like the kind of guy who doesn't feel good about a win unless he lets the opposing team take their best shot at him. Not out of hubris, but out of fairness. Debates of a grand scale of life an death, humanity versus nature, and a search for truth and purity. He did mention he played paragraph games prior and was getting used to the more rapid-fire nature, after all. It's not his fault he's a nerd.

Show me the hornets.

[Casey]

How do you have only 10 posts so far? I replaced in 2 hours ago and my ISO is already larger than yours.

Some find peace in solitude lol. Welcome aboard, Casey.

Who is the mafia?

[Casey]

Welcome to the game Casey. You can definitely talk.

Who is the mafia?

[Casey]

Frog wasn't there something about welcome posts in that paper?

[Casey]

Casey if you didn't already say what is your opinion of the N1 Mush kill and my Rocknil/Lavar theory.

Haven't gotten that far. I'll get to it when I get to it.

[Casey]

Okay I lightly townread MagikHorse and now I lightly townread Casey in the same slot which makes my life a lot easier.

Also what downgraded me from "town" to "lightly townread"?

[Casey]

Okay so look at these.

Welcome to the town Casey!

Welcome aboard, Casey.

Welcome to the game Casey.

Italiano and Rock welcome me to the game / aboard, but you specifically welcome me to the

town

.

[Casey]

Ok. Can you guess my career?

[Casey]

"Just, you know, do the thing!" -> "What thing is that even supposed to mean?"

Someone watched Korra.

[Casey]

Speaking of...

I am 50/50 on her so I will place her at null

for now.

[Casey]

Welcome to the game Casey. You can definitely talk.

Who is the mafia?

Mafia: an organized international body of criminals, operating originally in Sicily and now especially in Italy and the US and having a complex and ruthless behavioral code.

VOTE: Italiano

[Casey]

I wouldn't say that admitting a mistake is AI, but I think that it's pro-town for me to accept that I was wrong about something and admit it.

I agree with this. I've seen folks with a guilty mindset try to justify the stupidest things, or play things off as "just a joke." If they're willing to cover up that dumpster fire, what are they hiding in their apartment?

[Casey]

i've overreacted to reactions before in medias im more experienced in

Media is already plural. The singular is medium.

Just an FYI.

[Casey]

Yeah. (ignoring last game) this game Shelly has been pretty active and pushing. I don't necessarily agree with her pushes because she reaallly does not like being scumread. I am still scumreading her.

(using last game) I don't agree with Shelly's constant pushing because she was doing that last game; she kept yelling at MiniMegabyte for "scumslipping" (Mini was town). I think it's not helpful to latch onto small things and use them to justify a scumread. Sometimes you have a feeling you can't justify, but I think it's disingenuous to pull weak justification for your scumread. In retrospect, I may have done that with my initial scumread of Shelly, so I'm revising my scumread from a justified one to a gut one.

(ignoring last game) ItalianoVD has not been super active but he's posted enough. He's given reads and had conversations with people. I don't really have a handle on his alignment yet.

(using last game) something someone else said about how Italiano's playstyle might make him look scummier than he is resonates with me. I spent a lot of last game oscillating back and forth whether Italiano was scum or town and my impression is that he could hide it well enough if he were scum. It makes me scared to townread him or scumread him, although I'm townreading him now. I do feel like he was more active and off-the-cuff last game, but I haven't gone back and really ISOd and compared, which I will do at some point.

Hmm..

That was off the cuff so I'm curious to hear your reaction.

it made me feel joy inside

This post should be making me feel good about Frog, but...

1) Why did it take you so long to respond?

...and...

I plan on responding to posts by Mush, Redados and Frederick.

2) Did such a response really merit an "I'm planning to respond" ptap post?

[Casey]

Gonna shower and get some stuff done. I'm at the top of page 15. Halfway done!

[Casey]

Welcome to the game Casey. You can definitely talk.

Who is the mafia?

Mafia: an organized international body of criminals, operating originally in Sicily and now especially in Italy and the US and having a complex and ruthless behavioral code.

VOTE: Italiano

Who do you think the mafia is? You’re reading the game. What have you come up with? I could tell you, but I don’t want it to persuade your thinking.

You're not reading this game if you can't figure out what my reads are so far.

What is up with people safeguarding their thoughts this game?

Who is the mafia?

No idea! Unfortunately, I am not a mind reader and my scumread game is weak af. I'll have to trust my instinct.

And your instinct says..?

[Casey]

When I first entered the game and thought she behaved the scummiest of all the players, I thought her thinking I had a scumread on her was because she simply failed to understand that I didn't necessarily think she was scum.

This is noncommittal AF.

English isn't your first language, correct?

Willing to give a pass for that.

[Casey]

I think shellyc is behaving rather townily because of her utter willingness to be the hang. However, some of you have said that she played similarly in your last game with her? That doesn't make me feel as good.

Curious if a vote is incoming. This feels odd to just take their word for it instead of doing the research.

[Casey]

Casey, are you a teacher?

I'm an English college graduate. That doesn't make me a teacher by default!

[Casey]

When I first entered the game and thought she behaved the scummiest of all the players, I thought her thinking I had a scumread on her was because she simply failed to understand that I didn't necessarily think she was scum.

This is noncommittal AF.

English isn't your first language, correct?

Willing to give a pass for that.

Considering I learned English before I ever entered kindergarten, you could say it is.

When you see someone get called the scummiest person in the game, don't you think it's reasonable that the accuser believes that person is scum?

Do you think it makes sense that the accuser thinks someone else is mafia but not the scummiest person?

Do you have any precedent of calling someone the scummiest person in the game but not having a scumread on them?

[Casey]

I am almost caught up, and I have a few more pages to go. Before I finish the read...

Even then, if my plan was to be safe why risk claiming the Shelly townread when most people at the time were scumreading her?

This is true, but I feel like it is easier to townread a townie who is being scumread than to scumread a townie who is being townread as scum.
Your point about why you haven't been able to do more real time stuff is fair, so I guess I'm leaning towards rocknil then.

I sincerely hope there's more to your catch-up than this.

[Casey]

I think Redados unvoting is townie because he could have easily kept his vote on shellyc if she is town.
I am still not completely understanding why she is our primary target for elimination. I think her posts have been fine this game.

LavarManos, who would you like to lim today? (I suggest that you vote for them)

To be frank, I am not sure and I do not feel confident voting in anyone. My catchup was quite a skim, so I feel like I may be missing out on some important details. I'm not sure I believe in a shellyc elimination though. Perhaps rocknil or Fredrick?

Disappointing.

[Casey]

Oh, and for the record, my push on Frederick began as a weak scumread and now is quite strong. It wasn’t baseless in fact, just in appearance. There is no player who I scumread so high as Frederick in this game.

I'm yelling at a corpse, but maybe she can hear me from the grave: not publishing your findings is frustrating.

[Casey]

She really started wanting to appear as town so far so she voted herself without any provocation. After that She claimed VT which is convenient as claiming a PR will immediately get her CC’d. Her appealing to emotions has really backfired. I think her playstyle is harming the town more than any of her contributions. It is safe to eliminate her either way.

This paragraph makes me frown.

1. Scum can goad a CC on their way out. I disagree that a VT claim makes someone more likely mafia.

2. You talk about appeal to emotions as if it's inherently a mafia trait. I've had townies AtE me plenty of times. Mafia almost never.

3. "Her playstyle is harming the town" sounds self-exclusionary and really doesn't make me believe you ever truly thought she was mafia.

[Casey]

shellyc had failed to make coherent thoughts throughout this game. How is she suddenly able to come up with the idea of fake claiming a power role?

Rude.

[Casey]

Rocknil now voting for shelly with a long post saying why seems a little forced, but I’d like to give you the benefit of the doubt. You don’t talk all day, then you come in with a fairly decent reason for voting.

A vocal majority has panned Rock's post (including me!) but you're willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, despite saying it seems a little forced. Why is that?

[Casey]

It's Monday. I would like to hear more of ItalianoVD's thoughts on current events.

You know you don’t have to keep prompting me to post my thoughts. I will and do.

Maybe it's all in my head but I feel like you've been much less active this game than last.

Not alignment indicative of course because real life stuff comes up and is more important. But I keep forgetting that you're even in the game.

Pretty sure these two aren't buddies.

[Casey]

My reaction is that it's a conscientious and cooperative response. NAI and pro-town.

This is different from how you described your "hmm" earlier.

[Casey]

As in you responded to the same post twice, but with different reactions.

[Casey]

Here:

Yeah. (ignoring last game) this game Shelly has been pretty active and pushing. I don't necessarily agree with her pushes because she reaallly does not like being scumread. I am still scumreading her.

(using last game) I don't agree with Shelly's constant pushing because she was doing that last game; she kept yelling at MiniMegabyte for "scumslipping" (Mini was town). I think it's not helpful to latch onto small things and use them to justify a scumread. Sometimes you have a feeling you can't justify, but I think it's disingenuous to pull weak justification for your scumread. In retrospect, I may have done that with my initial scumread of Shelly, so I'm revising my scumread from a justified one to a gut one.

(ignoring last game) ItalianoVD has not been super active but he's posted enough. He's given reads and had conversations with people. I don't really have a handle on his alignment yet.

(using last game) something someone else said about how Italiano's playstyle might make him look scummier than he is resonates with me. I spent a lot of last game oscillating back and forth whether Italiano was scum or town and my impression is that he could hide it well enough if he were scum. It makes me scared to townread him or scumread him, although I'm townreading him now. I do feel like he was more active and off-the-cuff last game, but I haven't gone back and really ISOd and compared, which I will do at some point.

Hmm..

That was off the cuff so I'm curious to hear your reaction.

it made me feel joy inside

...and...

Yeah. (ignoring last game) this game Shelly has been pretty active and pushing. I don't necessarily agree with her pushes because she reaallly does not like being scumread. I am still scumreading her.

(using last game) I don't agree with Shelly's constant pushing because she was doing that last game; she kept yelling at MiniMegabyte for "scumslipping" (Mini was town). I think it's not helpful to latch onto small things and use them to justify a scumread. Sometimes you have a feeling you can't justify, but I think it's disingenuous to pull weak justification for your scumread. In retrospect, I may have done that with my initial scumread of Shelly, so I'm revising my scumread from a justified one to a gut one.

(ignoring last game) ItalianoVD has not been super active but he's posted enough. He's given reads and had conversations with people. I don't really have a handle on his alignment yet.

(using last game) something someone else said about how Italiano's playstyle might make him look scummier than he is resonates with me. I spent a lot of last game oscillating back and forth whether Italiano was scum or town and my impression is that he could hide it well enough if he were scum. It makes me scared to townread him or scumread him, although I'm townreading him now. I do feel like he was more active and off-the-cuff last game, but I haven't gone back and really ISOd and compared, which I will do at some point.

Hmm..

That was off the cuff so I'm curious to hear your reaction.

My reaction is that it's a conscientious and cooperative response. NAI and pro-town.

A conscientious, cooperative, pro-town, but ultimately NAI response made you feel joy inside?

[Casey]

The guy that just replaced in looks town.

What did you see? Because all I saw was disappointment.

[Casey]

I am here. Should I hammer shelly?

Ew ew ew this is so gross.

[Casey]

Rocknil now voting for shelly with a long post saying why seems a little forced, but I’d like to give you the benefit of the doubt. You don’t talk all day, then you come in with a fairly decent reason for voting.

A vocal majority has panned Rock's post (including me!) but you're willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, despite saying it seems a little forced. Why is that?

Simply because I wanted to give him a chance to build more of a presence in the game. This way I could have more information before making a final decision. I haven’t really gotten that which is why he has my vote for today.

This is a good answer.

You're not reading this game if you can't figure out what my reads are so far.

What is up with people safeguarding their thoughts this game?

So who do you think the scum is?

That is some mad confidence you have.

Almost done reading D1. Recap to come afterward.

[Casey]

Spoilers I read ahead. I found this:

Last minute baseless speculation:

Consider a Frogster and Frederick scumteam. They play off of each other constantly, they reinforce each other; even Frogster’s criticism seems anticipated and expected.

If Shelly flips green... consider the value of a Frogster and Frederick scumteam and compare it with how their interactions and play have been.

Also, my survival or death has no bearing on this baseless speculation whether you want it to or not, to prevent Town from getting suckered into a wildly off base round of game solving nonsense. Even if scum actually use worried about this, don’t read into it. Follow my earlier play if I die tonight.

MUSHSHAGANA was killed during Night 1. She was a

Vanilla Townie

.

Why did Fredrick not vote???? Was he afraid to hammer because he knew that ShellyC was town? Or am I overthinking it?

VOTE: Fredrick A Campbell

Mush was onto Frogsterking and Fredrick A Campbell. And looking back I think Fredrick A Campbell was working hard to blend in. I find it more scummy than others.

VOTE: Fredrick A Campbell

I think Rock in this chain of posts is kinda gross.

[Casey]

TOWN

Redados - Consistent, fearless posting. Strongest townread by far. Nothing to complain about here, at all.

OK

Italiano - Confusing, though consistent and confident. Someone earlier mentioned he was like a puppy dog playing in the snow and after a reread I can feel that vibe.

MEH

Frog - The theory lessons are great, but it would also be great if he'd

do something.

Campbell - Frustrating posts. Weak townreads. Non-committal.

NAH

Rocknil - Less Rock than Nil. Hasn't followed through with

any

activity as claimed. Biggest post was a heckin sketchy dud.

LavarManos - Absolutely 100% disappointing and gross posts.

I have 4 pages left to read. Barring any revelations, Lavar needs to go.

[Casey]

VOTE: Unvote

Break time.

[Casey]

Here's some expounding on my thoughts.

I think shellyc is behaving rather townily because of her utter willingness to be the hang. However, some of you have said that she played similarly in your last game with her? That doesn't make me feel as good.

Curious if a vote is incoming. This feels odd to just take their word for it instead of doing the research.

What's up with this waffle?

I am here. Should I hammer shelly?

Ew ew ew this is so gross.

Here's Lavar asking for permission to vote. This is at the very end of D1, with everyone already in agreement to hammer before it goes no-lim. This is pretty much my #1 red flag, showing an outsider trying to get in on town action.

Also in D1:

I am almost caught up, and I have a few more pages to go. Before I finish the read...

Even then, if my plan was to be safe why risk claiming the Shelly townread when most people at the time were scumreading her?

This is true, but I feel like it is easier to townread a townie who is being scumread than to scumread a townie who is being townread as scum.
Your point about why you haven't been able to do more real time stuff is fair, so I guess I'm leaning towards rocknil then.

I sincerely hope there's more to your catch-up than this.

When someone replaces in, it helps to get a fresh perspective on things. I expect Lavar to deliver

something.

This was the delivery:

I think Redados unvoting is townie because he could have easily kept his vote on shellyc if she is town.
I am still not completely understanding why she is our primary target for elimination. I think her posts have been fine this game.

LavarManos, who would you like to lim today? (I suggest that you vote for them)

To be frank, I am not sure and I do not feel confident voting in anyone. My catchup was quite a skim, so I feel like I may be missing out on some important details. I'm not sure I believe in a shellyc elimination though. Perhaps rocknil or Fredrick?

Disappointing.

Everyone has different posting habits, but to have skimmed through a game and come back with a shrug and two guesses? That's so underwhelming it hurts.

I also don't see cohesive thoughts from one post to another. The Lavar in one post feels like he has a different mindset than the previous Lavar.

I don't see an effort to solve the game. I see someone blending in and giving pushes as light as a breeze.

Even Rock did more than that.

Still haven't read D2. Maybe it goes better.

[Casey]

I think I did enough outside the theory lessons since I lead the initial pushes on both your current scum reads.

Looking forward to it.

[Casey]

Thank you for doing that effort. How much value do you place on kill analysis?

@Italiano: I still wanna know who you think is maf.

[Casey]

As far as I was concerned, my vote didn't matter. The person we were going to execute was going to be shellyc and I was convinced by MUSHSHAGANA that it was not a good idea to suggest an alternative execution, which, as it happens I didn't have. Although my scumread on shellyc waned later, I still thought it was not a good idea to make that public, for I had no alternative execution.

What is it with you people and not taking responsibility for your actions?

[Casey]

As far as I was concerned, my vote didn't matter. The person we were going to execute was going to be shellyc and I was convinced by MUSHSHAGANA that it was not a good idea to suggest an alternative execution, which, as it happens I didn't have. Although my scumread on shellyc waned later, I still thought it was not a good idea to make that public, for I had no alternative execution.

As for why I didn't hammer shellyc, I trusted MUSHSHAGANA to do it, as she said she would switch her vote over anytime but wanted to let others put their thoughts out.

What is YOUR thought on everyone’s scumread of you. At the moment the only thing I have on you is not voting and well that’s practically nothing.

Goodposting.

[Casey]

@Italiano I thought you admitting that ego was driving your early push of shellyc was townie. I can sorta relate to that feeling.
One of my fears is being wrong, so sometimes I might vote someone even if I don't strongly believe that they are scum. I need to work on that.
Redados, I just think that you are town because of how eager and natural you sounded. You can think I'm pocketing you, but that is just how I feel
I will look at Frogsterking. He just seemed helpful in general, but I didn't particularly townread him. I think we can do this, and I'm still confident in rocknil being scum. Perhaps with Frogster or Magik Horse. I'm not think Fred is that scummy right now!

Oh look an attempt to solve.

[Casey]

That literally doesn't explain why you find me scummy?

The fact you're asking for an explanation instead of accusing me of being scummy (as though you're more worried that I cheated than if I really know if you're scum or not) is another tick in the scum direction from my point of view.

Not a fan of this.

[Casey]

By don't care I mean I don't care if I have to vote Rocknil or Lavaar, not that I don't care about the outcome of the game! I do want to win and I am town and I think either one of these is the best move.

My opinion of Frog is dropping each time he posts. This "I do want to win and I am town" phrasing is baffling.

[Casey]

VOTE: Frogsterking

Congratulations. You have made me suspicious.

Good vote.

[Casey]

Watergun missed!

I love it.

[Casey]

Pretty certain Frog and Lavar aren't buddies.

I am still townreading Italiano and I still townread you, so I am thinking we can try to find the scumteam in the remaining pool of four players based on how they have interacted. I do not think rocknil is scum with Fredrick because there is no need to open up the day with a vote on his scumbuddy. I also do not like how rocknil chose to ignore my vote on him.

In Day 1, I pushed hard for shellyc. I thought there was something tangible there but I was wrong. I don't blame you for scumreading me. But you are wrong. I am now going over the thread to find the scum team. I have this feeling that I've missed something.

How did that go?

[Casey]

I think Mush was killed to try and frame Frederick.

Has anyone even hypothesized this today?

[Casey]

I think I did enough outside the theory lessons since I lead the initial pushes on both your current scum reads.

Looking forward to it.

The reviews are in and they're not so good.

[Casey]

I think Mush was killed to try and frame Frederick.

Has anyone even hypothesized this today?

Mush was out for Frederick's blood. If Frederick is on the scumteam they would probably need to kill Mush.

Oh look at that.

[Casey]

I'm feeling pretty confident that Redados, Italiano, and Lavar are town.

[Casey]

For the record, I'm all caught up.

[Casey]

If we don't get a replacement within 24 hours, I'm okay with limming Rock as-is.

VOTE: Frogsterking

Now I remember why I was scumreading Frogsterking.

To be specific, are you saying you think he is mafia?

[Casey]

In conclusion, my current scumread on Frogsterking is over his obsession of what everyone thinks of the nightkill, while my reason for scumreading Frogsterking when I made the post you quoted was for post 640 and my very first suspicions on Frogsterking was because of his obsession over the nightkill.

I'll agree in the very least that the things Frog has said outside of analyses and theory don't sit well with me.

[Casey]

@Italiano: I still wanna know who you think is maf.

I don’t solve for partners so if you want me to try to solve the game that way then you’re gonna be disappointed. I think scum is somewhere within rock, Lavar and you/MagikHorse. I’d be okay eliminating

As I’ve stated already, Redados, Frederick, and somewhat Frogsterking are in my no lynch pool

Why is Frog "somewhat" in that pool?

[Casey]

The "obsession" angle looks like poor or made-up reasoning and is also unnecessary to the case.

What is "necessary" to the case, then?

[Casey]

At this point I would be the second townie you overreacted to in an OMGUS [...]

VOTE: Frederick

I'd just like to point out the irony here.

[Casey]

You clearly "remember" why you were scumreading Frogsterking after you see that Casey FoSes Frogsterking.

Why are you talking about yourself in third-person? I had to scroll back up just to be certain it was you posting and not someone else.

[Casey]

@Italiano: I still wanna know who you think is maf.

I don’t solve for partners so if you want me to try to solve the game that way then you’re gonna be disappointed. I think scum is somewhere within rock, Lavar and you/MagikHorse. I’d be okay eliminating

As I’ve stated already, Redados, Frederick, and somewhat Frogsterking are in my no lynch pool

Why is Frog "somewhat" in that pool?

Also I really don't think Lavar is maf.

[Casey]

In conclusion, my current scumread on Frogsterking is over his obsession of what everyone thinks of the nightkill, while my reason for scumreading Frogsterking when I made the post you quoted was for post 640 and my very first suspicions on Frogsterking was because of his obsession over the nightkill.

I'll agree in the very least that the things Frog has said outside of analyses and theory don't sit well with me.

I don’t get 640. So because he said welcome to “town” instead of game, that’s suspicious? And what has he done?

He shrugged it off when I asked him about it. That doesn't make me feel all aces about him.

I have plenty of posts about Frog. There's an ISO button for a reason. You can find this answer for yourself instead of requiring me to quote a load of posts.

[Casey]

@Italiano: I still wanna know who you think is maf.

I don’t solve for partners so if you want me to try to solve the game that way then you’re gonna be disappointed. I think scum is somewhere within rock, Lavar and you/MagikHorse. I’d be okay eliminating

As I’ve stated already, Redados, Frederick, and somewhat Frogsterking are in my no lynch pool

Why is Frog "somewhat" in that pool?

You know, I can’t remember why I said that. I may have been overthinking or something. Sorry that I can’t give you more than that, but just know he’s in my no lynch pool.

The only emotion I can express is sadness.

[Casey]

@Italiano: I still wanna know who you think is maf.

I don’t solve for partners so if you want me to try to solve the game that way then you’re gonna be disappointed. I think scum is somewhere within rock, Lavar and you/MagikHorse. I’d be okay eliminating

As I’ve stated already, Redados, Frederick, and somewhat Frogsterking are in my no lynch pool

Why is Frog "somewhat" in that pool?

Also I really don't think Lavar is maf.

Well he is there from PoE in my mind. And it also wouldn’t surprise me if he was so I’m comfortable with it.

Fine. But I won't support his lim. You'll have to rally that without me.

[Casey]

Casey, can you help me understand what it is that you are looking for when you scum read someone? I remember you described yourself as a behavioral player.

I have a theory that you are good at picking up on tells in others behaviors, and that you scum read people who seem anxious and guarded, is this true?

I rely 100% on gut. If someone is meshing with me, I'm totally down to just TR them right away and never look back. I desperately look for posts that make me go "that person is town." I review ISOs to see if I can follow someone's mindset from start to finish. I look for crucial interactions and find ways to disprove buddies. I point out gross posts. I don't keep notes; I post all my thoughts.

And I post a lot. I can be loud. I kick every nest and goad every hornet. I have a habit of being the momma bird protecting the flock.

Mafia games are like temporary chat rooms where we kick out the people who aren't the coolest of the cool kids. I do my best not to be a bitch, though! I'm mostly chill. If I'm ever too rude, please call me out on it.

[Casey]

I am hesitantly walking into this.

[Casey]

Secondly, the "obsession" angle you are referring to doesn't even seem to be the reason I am scumreading you for. It is a misrepresentation of a part of the case, and there is no need for me to argue for something that I am not arguing about.

This is what I was looking for. Frog's position didn't seem like the right one and Fred confirms my suspicions here.

[Casey]

I believe that after interacting with me for a longer period of time she would realize that these traits in my case are not indicative of deception, as my behavior is like this when I'm telling the truth as well, since it's part of my personality.

This sentence is a stain on an otherwise bespoke garment.

Still. I don't think Frog is the best lim for today.

VOTE: Rocknil

In addition to sketchy play + replace out, I don't think it's fair to force someone to replace in, roll mafia, and climb an uphill battle.

My most likely pairing is Rock+Frog, but I'm having doubts about the Frog part of that.

This game is small enough that I don't feel like I need to make a chart, but I will if it gets necessary.

[Casey]

FYI, Rock is at lim-1 now, for all you crazy cats itching for a hammer.

[Casey]

I think hammering Rocknil today is risky, as I think there is both a high chance of both Rocknil-Frederick and Lavar-Frederick pair, and in the case of Lavar-Frederick they will be able to night kill a player that town reads me and force a majority off Casey's vote in D3.

Provided I'm alive, I promise to give everything you say on D3 a fair shake.

[Casey]

I don't know any more.

Italiano / Fred?

[Casey]

Lavar has literally no major interactions with anyone but Frog.

[Casey]

Organizing Fred thoughts.

Interaction with Italiano:

...

@Frederick: welcome to the game.

Thank you.

I’m not liking shelly’s responses to Frederick. Seems unnecessarily hostile and defensive. Does this qualify as a good enough read?

In my opinion, the observation is accurate. However, I don't think it necessarily means she is a mafioso, just an egotistical person. shellyc, describing you as egotistical is not meant as an insult, but just a description.

Actually, looking at the player list, it seems that I have a minor townread on everyone except for shellyc and rocknil.

So are you gonna vote for them?

I don't see the point.

As far as I was concerned, my vote didn't matter. The person we were going to execute was going to be shellyc and I was convinced by MUSHSHAGANA that it was not a good idea to suggest an alternative execution, which, as it happens I didn't have. Although my scumread on shellyc waned later, I still thought it was not a good idea to make that public, for I had no alternative execution.

As for why I didn't hammer shellyc, I trusted MUSHSHAGANA to do it, as she said she would switch her vote over anytime but wanted to let others put their thoughts out.

What is YOUR thought on everyone’s scumread of you. At the moment the only thing I have on you is not voting and well that’s practically nothing.

Firstly, I believe only Redados, you and rocknil have expressed a scumread on me, though I may discover some other player were also scumreading me while rereading parts of the thread. In my opinion, Redados' and your scumread of me appears genuine as both of you appear to believe that my not voting was indicative that I am scum and rocknil's scumread of me also appears to be plausibly genuine.

Right now, I don't have any townreads or scumreads and believe that some townreads and scumreads that I gathered during the night phase and before were inaccurate.

@Frederick: what do you think about the Mush kill?

I think nothing of it.

All of Fred's posts to Italiano feel... standoffish. Like I'm feeling a "leave me alone" vibe from Fred.

This curious gem started the Fred v. Frog war:

Why are you voting rocknil instead of me though and why do you think we are scum together? Do you really think I would choose to attack him, but have him completely ignore my presence?

VOTE: LavarManos

Why did you decide to switch to LavarManos after he/she questioned you?

Prodding Italiano on the push for Frog:

Thank you for doing that effort. How much value do you place on kill analysis?

@Italiano: I still wanna know who you think is maf.

I don’t solve for partners so if you want me to try to solve the game that way then you’re gonna be disappointed. I think scum is somewhere within rock, Lavar and you/MagikHorse. I’d be okay eliminating

As I’ve stated already, Redados, Frederick, and somewhat Frogsterking are in my no lynch pool

Since you townread Frogsterking, what do you have to say about my scumread on Frogsterking.

The scumread isn't over your obsession of the night kill. It is over your obsession of what others think of the night kill.

So he shouldn’t ask what people think about what's going in the game? This is a weird statement.

The issue isn't that he asked. The issue is what I think his intention of asking was, which was to ascertain if it was necessary to nudge everyone towards the conclusion intended by him to be drawn from the nightkill.

In conclusion, my current scumread on Frogsterking is over his obsession of what everyone thinks of the nightkill, while my reason for scumreading Frogsterking when I made the post you quoted was for post 640 and my very first suspicions on Frogsterking was because of his obsession over the nightkill.

I'll agree in the very least that the things Frog has said outside of analyses and theory don't sit well with me.

I don’t get 640. So because he said welcome to “town” instead of game, that’s suspicious? And what has he done?

There are several other things that have made me suspicious. I am detailing them in a post I am writing.

759 may also be of interest

[Casey]

Just skimming through Italiano's ISO, I can

feel

he's far more engaged in the game than the other two.

This post worries me though for its blatant defense of Fred:

I’ve gone back over Day 1 and I’m still not seeing the early universal scumread of Frederick. I will admit as the Day went on he appeared more nonchalant and apathetic, but I’ve seen townies play and act this way. I’m still slightly townreading Frederick.

Another scumteam I do not find likely would be Fredrick and Frogsterking. I don't think that interaction earlier today looks fake.
Perhaps the scumteam is (Frogster, rocknil)? I am not sure.

You initially scumread Frederick and you don’t now. What happened or what did he do that has made you think otherwise? Or was it something someone said?

.
I guess I'm curious what everyone else has to say about the night kill?

I think Mush was killed to try and frame Frederick. I don’t know, that’s what it seems like to me. The other possibility is that Frederick did want Mush to die. I don’t see it because it seems too obvious, but I guess it’s something that wouldn’t be smart for me to overlook.

I am still townreading Italiano and I still townread you, so I am thinking we can try to find the scumteam in the remaining pool of four players based on how they have interacted. I do not think rocknil is scum with Fredrick because there is no need to open up the day with a vote on his scumbuddy. I also do not like how rocknil chose to ignore my vote on him.

Are you saying you still think rocknil is scum? Just not with Frederick?

In Day 1, I pushed hard for shellyc. I thought there was something tangible there but I was wrong. I don't blame you for scumreading me. But you are wrong. I am now going over the thread to find the scum team. I have this feeling that I've missed something.

Hey, I know shelly being townie threw me off, so going back through makes sense, unless of course you’re just doing it because you know that’s what town would do.

...

Thank you for doing that effort. How much value do you place on kill analysis?

@Italiano: I still wanna know who you think is maf.

I don’t solve for partners so if you want me to try to solve the game that way then you’re gonna be disappointed. I think scum is somewhere within rock, Lavar and you/MagikHorse. I’d be okay eliminating

As I’ve stated already, Redados, Frederick, and somewhat Frogsterking are in my no lynch pool

Sigh.

[Casey]

I don't know. Someone else talk for a bit. I need sleep.

[Casey]

I don't know any more.

Italiano / Fred?

What was this in response to?

Nothing. Just posting my thoughts as they come to me.

Just skimming through Italiano's ISO, I can

feel

he's far more engaged in the game than the other two.

This post worries me though for its blatant defense of Fred:

Spoiler:

I’ve gone back over Day 1 and I’m still not seeing the early universal scumread of Frederick. I will admit as the Day went on he appeared more nonchalant and apathetic, but I’ve seen townies play and act this way. I’m still slightly townreading Frederick.

Another scumteam I do not find likely would be Fredrick and Frogsterking. I don't think that interaction earlier today looks fake.
Perhaps the scumteam is (Frogster, rocknil)? I am not sure.

You initially scumread Frederick and you don’t now. What happened or what did he do that has made you think otherwise? Or was it something someone said?

.
I guess I'm curious what everyone else has to say about the night kill?

I think Mush was killed to try and frame Frederick. I don’t know, that’s what it seems like to me. The other possibility is that Frederick did want Mush to die. I don’t see it because it seems too obvious, but I guess it’s something that wouldn’t be smart for me to overlook.

I am still townreading Italiano and I still townread you, so I am thinking we can try to find the scumteam in the remaining pool of four players based on how they have interacted. I do not think rocknil is scum with Fredrick because there is no need to open up the day with a vote on his scumbuddy. I also do not like how rocknil chose to ignore my vote on him.

Are you saying you still think rocknil is scum? Just not with Frederick?

In Day 1, I pushed hard for shellyc. I thought there was something tangible there but I was wrong. I don't blame you for scumreading me. But you are wrong. I am now going over the thread to find the scum team. I have this feeling that I've missed something.
Hey, I know shelly being townie threw me off, so going back through makes sense, unless of course you’re just doing it because you know that’s what town would do.

That

was

earlier. The gamestate has changed since then.

That doesn't really assuage me much.

I'm trying to discount at least one pair. If I can be certain about that, then I'll have found one maf definitely.

For example...

Lavar+Fred
Lavar+Italiano
Fred+Italiano

If it's not Lavar+Italiano, then I know Fred is definitely maf.

And so on.

[Casey]

I hope I didn't break the thread.

[Casey]

Well that wasn’t surprising, I figured it’d be me or Redados to get killed. Rocknil is a little surprising.

I’ve done my reading though. I’ve actually read 759 many times over and it’s still confusing to follow.

@Frederick: So are you saying you initially scumread Frogster for his obsession over what people thought of the nightkill and then 640 solidified your scumread or vice versa?

Actually, while that was what I was saying, I misremembered. I actually scumread Frogsterking for not seeming to attempt to solve the game, then 640 made me more suspicious. The rest of what I recounted was more recent and so I doubt I misremembered anything else.

I find it strange not to remember why you scumread somebody. Like it wasn’t a real scumread to begin with.

He already said earlier he has memory issues.

[Casey]

Fred are you going to continue to question the unCC'd power role or are you going to do something useful?

[Casey]

Also in hindsight I noticed that I got pushed a lot for perspective slips on D2 and I wonder if it's due to how I write and whether it was exacerbated by my drinking.

I think it was just me who pushed you for that.

To be fair it was Casey who pointed them out and then allowed you to push them.

Just FYI, I pushed you also. Like you were my #2 scumread at the time.

[Casey]

Also Casey what is your current opinion of the scum team?

Gun to my head Lavar Italiano. Or Lavar Fred. Italiano Fred has the greatest interactions and I am super sleepy and don't recall but I think I marked them as likely to be genuine.

[Casey]

I have more experience with NKA, is anyone here amateur, pro or otherwise experienced in VCA?

None.

Passing out.

[Casey]

Awake again!

Fred are you going to continue to question the unCC'd power role or are you going to do something useful?

Are you?

No. Is there some reason I should be?

[Casey]

I'm probably going to need a fellow townsperson to bounce ideas off with. I just finished doing VCA of D1 up to 1.06. I'm going to see if I can go the rest of the way through the day now.

Casey or Frederick, do you have any experience in VCA?

I don't, but I can try. What do I do?

Fred was the only living non-you player not on the Rocknil lim. Although what's the likelihood two maf would be the first two on a wagon in order to bully it across the finish line?

[Casey]

At this point I would be the second townie you overreacted to in an OMGUS [...]

VOTE: Frederick

I'd just like to point out the irony here.

Casey how did you know that this post was ironic?

Because you were the one who actually laid down an OMGUS vote. Fred hadn't voted you at this point.

[Casey]

I'm going to give everyone one more round of posts tomorrow before I dump my thoughts out. If you're the scum team this will probably be your last chance to change my mind.

These were the sources I used for understanding VCA:

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... unting#VCA
https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... _VCA_Guide
https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=VCA
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?t=70951

I was hoping to find a greater variety of sources on the topic but it seems to be something more effective in the MafiaScum format.

This writer (or writers with similar names) predicted this information would become outdated as scum became familiar with the theory which I don't believe was the case at all in this game.

One of those sources looked like it was the same text.

These quotes suggest I just gave Fred townpoints for something I should have given him scumpoints for:

"

Town [lim]:
Look off the mis[lim] wagon.

The first place I look for scum on a mis[lim] is OFF the wagon--I try to determine how many scum (if any) there are, and who the probable candidates are. Sometimes, there are situations where there are none to be found, or far fewer to be found than expected...and in those situations, by virtue of doing this analysis, I have a better idea of how good or bad the mis[lim] wagon was.

[...]

Scum could EASILY vote park on a "push" going nowhere. The question is if the wagon ever did anything. If not, congrats, it's >rand scum voter.

"

I'm not totally convinced by this and I think it's dumb.

[Casey]

I am fine with that.
rocknil said he was going to look for the scum team though, so I think we should at least give him that chance to get his thoughts out in the case he is town. In fact, if he does flip town, I will be questioning my townreads on you and Italiano.
Casey seems fine.

Posts like these are what make me think Lavar is town.

But then I cross that with Italiano's sheer confidence and Fred's familiar aloofness and a "pick two" situation just makes me freeze up.

One of you just do something extremely townie or extremely scummy please. Or someone talk to me.

One day I will probably take aim, close my eyes, and snap-vote based on how my gut is feeling.

Gun to my head I'd say Fred/Lavar because I've been able to connect on a better level with Italiano.

[Casey]

Awake again!

Fred are you going to continue to question the unCC'd power role or are you going to do something useful?

Are you?

No. Is there some reason I should be?

Just pointing out how you are pushing Frederick to do something you are not doing yourself.

I am literally not doing that.

[Casey]

I just looked back at my ISO and yeah I have zero clue what you're talking about.

[Casey]

Italiano can you explain your blatant defense of Fred in #864?

Fred can you explain why your posts to Italiano in #863 look like they're trying to push Italiano off your back?

Lavar can you do something please? We have 3 days left and we really need you to focus.

[Casey]

Fred: "I think the scumteam is ItalianoVD and LavarManos."

Lavar: "I will reconsider my reads, but the scumteam might just be Casey and Fred?" "I think Casey has been townie, but it is LYLO. A member of the mafia could be townie, so that alone does not prevent my vote from going there."

Italiano: "My scumteam is Lavar and Casey, however, I’ve been wrong on both days so far (shelly / rocknil) so I’m not real confident about placing a vote down unplanned or without logic."

Casey: Currently feeling Fred/Italiano. It may be Lavar's lack of action that has me focused there. I'm giving Lavar a pass for being a newbie.

Also this exchange:

Can you give me any insight into how you approach the game as scum???

I think I would just try to active lurk and throw in the occasional thought or two. Nothing much.

Would a newbie maf really say how they play as maf while doing the exact same thing they say they're doing?

[Casey]

Fred & Italiano how do you reconcile the quote above being from maf?? Coached by his partner to active lurk and say self-incriminating things??

[Casey]

Italiano can you explain your blatant defense of Fred in #864?

Fred can you explain why your posts to Italiano in #863 look like they're trying to push Italiano off your back?

Lavar can you do something please? We have 3 days left and we really need you to focus.

Maybe you have to explain why you think so as I was not trying to do so when I made those posts. Instead, I just answered ItalianoVD's questions.

Yes but why is that

all

you did? No follow-ups, no addressing, no questioning his actions.

[Casey]

Fred & Italiano how do you reconcile the quote above being from maf?? Coached by his partner to active lurk and say self-incriminating things??

By quote above I mean #976.

[Casey]

Italiano can you explain your blatant defense of Fred in #864?

Fred can you explain why your posts to Italiano in #863 look like they're trying to push Italiano off your back?

Lavar can you do something please? We have 3 days left and we really need you to focus.

Maybe you have to explain why you think so as I was not trying to do so when I made those posts. Instead, I just answered ItalianoVD's questions.

Yes but why is that

all

you did? No follow-ups, no addressing, no questioning his actions.

Because I did not see any necessity in doing so.

Not even now?

Fred & Italiano how do you reconcile the quote above being from maf?? Coached by his partner to active lurk and say self-incriminating things??

He was potentially not coached when he posted that.

That was the worst non-answer I've heard all game.

Awake again!

Fred are you going to continue to question the unCC'd power role or are you going to do something useful?

Are you?

No. Is there some reason I should be?

Just pointing out how you are pushing Frederick to do something you are not doing yourself.

I am literally not doing that.

You asked him if he’s going to do something useful. I asked you if you going to do something useful. I wasn’t saying are you going to stop questioning the power role.

I just looked back at my ISO and yeah I have zero clue what you're talking about.

I wasn’t talking overall, I was only talking about today.

Are you still under the opinion that I'm being "useless"?

Italiano can you explain your blatant defense of Fred in #864?

Fred can you explain why your posts to Italiano in #863 look like they're trying to push Italiano off your back?

Lavar can you do something please? We have 3 days left and we really need you to focus.

Yeah, I thought he was town and I didn’t see why he was being universally scumread, so I was really trying to understand what others were seeing because I didn’t see it. If I townread someone I will try to protect them as best I can.

You said he was a "light townread."

Fred & Italiano how do you reconcile the quote above being from maf?? Coached by his partner to active lurk and say self-incriminating things??

By quote above I mean #976.

What are you asking? If Lavar was coached to say what he said? That doesn’t make sense.

Explain how that quote comes from a maf.

[Casey]

It's genuinely impressive that Lavar is my biggest townread, and he's

emulating his mafgame.

[Casey]

So my real reports were that Fred visited no one N1 and Italiano visited Redados N2

Neat.

Both MagikHorse and Casey voted Italiano as a single-person BW and interacted with him and nothing ever came of it before joining mainstream BWs.

First guesses always best guesses.

I guess he's probably clear anyway because it's better for one scum to do the kill and the other to investigate so when the tracker outs them they can claim they're the other pr.

You're coming at this in a way suggesting that mafia played in some perfect or robotic way. I wouldn't rule that out. They'd have to know what row and column they're in ahead of time and with my stellar powers of logic I don't see how that's possible.

So my real reports were that Fred visited no one N1 and Italiano visited Redados N2

I was coming round to townreading ItalianoVD again, actually.

Normally, I would think scum doesn't say stuff like this regarding their partner and would be more eager to bus. However, Fred strikes me as a somewhat unconventional player. Any scumgames I can skim over?

Is... is this... effort?

I was planning to vote Casey tonight but I guess I will choose to sleep off the remaining alcohol instead. For what it's worth I thought both of your reactions to the real reports were townie enough.

Why would you not vote the obvious maf? That's what the university you linked says to do.

[Casey]

So I'm confused and concerned that I'm even being considered for the chopping block. Really don't know how to even begin with that.

[Casey]

Well, I would feel a lot more comfortable if you didn't come off as dismissive with everything I pose to you.

[Casey]

Hold up a sec.

[Casey]

Yo Frog:

I'm reading both of these posts as fence sitting, pushing for a townie [lim] while distancing from each other, and they put the name first of the townie they're hoping gets [limmed] because they are listing in order of operations.

I'd appreciate it if you would actually pay attention today instead of phoning it in with confirmation bias. Here are

all

my reads today:

I don't know any more.

Italiano / Fred?

Also Casey what is your current opinion of the scum team?

Gun to my head Lavar Italiano. Or Lavar Fred. Italiano Fred has the greatest interactions and I am super sleepy and don't recall but I think I marked them as likely to be genuine.

Gun to my head I'd say Fred/Lavar because I've been able to connect on a better level with Italiano.

Currently feeling Fred/Italiano. It may be Lavar's lack of action that has me focused there. I'm giving Lavar a pass for being a newbie

It's genuinely impressive that Lavar is my biggest townread, and he's

emulating his mafgame.

Also just before you did your explosive gender reveal, 993 is pretty much where my opinion of Italiano dramatically dropped.

[Casey]

(Specifically the "light townread" part of #993, because that was a full-blown lie.)

[Casey]

Anyway what I was

starting

to say is that @Fred, you never responded to #993. But coming fresh before the wake of Frog's reveal in #996, I can see how that rendered my points moot to you.

[Casey]

There's one last thing I want to review, but it's going to take a bit, so I'm heading back to sleep.

[Casey]

Look who's trying to shut up conversation.

[Casey]

I'm down with Italiano and Lavar as the solve.

[Casey]

We have 27 hours left to discuss BTW.

Also @Fred: #1070 is my answer to you. Before today you were like 80% town and now you're 99%.

[Casey]

There's one last thing I want to review, but it's going to take a bit, so I'm heading back to sleep.

For reference I don't have to do this any more. It involved reviewing how Fred behaved last game.

[Casey]

1. Frog, stop doing that.
2. I also don't see any commonalities. Except that they use the same emoticons?
3. Take us away, Fred.

[Casey]

Casey, if you are town, are you okay with losing this game to a rolecop Fredrick who did not perform an action N1?

If he legit didn't take an action and just happened to be tracked, combined with all the daytime interactions, and he's still mafia? Then sure. I won't feel bad about losing to that.

Consider it from my perspective, I think you are town which means that Casey is scum. This means I win if we eliminate Casey today. If you think she is scum, great. I don't have to do anything. However, if you think I am scum, then I will have to talk you out of that.
That is why town Lavar would say that.

You could, y'know, build a case of you actually feel that way. Instead you say in the post above that you're only interested in protecting your own butt.

I think the way Lavar is framing things says a lot more than he means to.

To Fred, he takes the position of "If you think I'm scum, I'll have to defend myself."
To me, he asks if I'm okay losing this game as town.

It's like he's trying to get both Fred and I away from him, and onto each other. To him it doesn't matter which, as long as one of us votes the other.

I'll vote shortly after y'all have your last thoughts in.

[Casey]

Fair enough.

VOTE: Lavar

[Casey]

Wonderful. Fred is clear, Lavar is mafia.

Fred, please recall that Lavar has been fencesitty, avoided controversy, said he's playing his scumgame. There's a time for "too scummy to be maf" and this isn't it. His D1 was terrible. His D2 he put in effort and looked like he was going to be a good townie but then decided it was too hard and hasn't done anything since.

Remember that Italiano and Lavar have

zero

meaningful interactions. When confronted about this, they both were like "yeah whatever eff off."

This should be an easy-peasy call.

Let's get on the same wavelength. What has you conflicted?

[Casey]

I was town too! It was Fred all along!

Just kidding. Good game y'all.

Thank you Lavar for the compliment in #1132! Sorry you were the fall guy in the final 3. Your day 2 play was genuinely good, and I'd love to see more of that from you.

I had a great time with this game. Italiano, good effort until the unfortunate ending. Thank you for being a great buddy who incensed me enough in the thread to respond with a vote! Your interactions with MagikHorse were amazing and I wish I had the charisma the two of you displayed this game! Y'all were fantastic.

Frog, thank you for all the links! I read through all of Mafia University. When I got to the thread that was like "stop busing" I came up with a reason to unvote Italiano which I'm surprised nobody brought up a single time. It was a completely baseless read with no substance at all.

Fred, thank you for the game. You played exactly like your previous game and I had to not make any mention of this meta I knew about. Also yes, I did pretty much kindle the Frog vs Fred battle whenever that fire was getting low. Ehehe.

Redados, sorry for killing you. You were the towniest townie alive when I replaced in. Thanks for never questioning me at all. I was afraid of you the most!!

And Rocknil, thanks for playing! Would have loved to see more of you.

[Casey]

Also MUSH and Shelly, y'all were top tier townies this game. It's a shame y'all got ran up. I wouldn't be able to compete with either of you!

[Casey]

Here's a quote from MagikHorse in the Dead Thread: "My secret? Just forget your partner's alignment and play naturally."

I still feel that's cheating. If you aren't mentally conscious of who your partner is, then you're going against the foundation of what I feel being mafia means: you have all the information.

It's deliberately denying yourself that info to give yourself an in-game advantage that you shouldn't have. I like playing fair and would never try something like that.

Almost50 did it in a game a few weeks ago, and it's frustrating. Like if you really feel you need an underhanded advantage like that to win, then fine.

I honestly don't mind it when people cheat, because I believe it means winning is really important to their self-validation. Or maybe cheaters cheat because they assume everyone cheats? I don't know.

Anyway sorry for the random rant! I thoroughly enjoyed this game regardless!

Nahdia, thank you for hosting. I loved all the photos of lilies!