Newbie 2025 | Lilies | Game Over

[MagikHorse]

Finally got back home to see a whole lot of fluff before I've even gotten a chance to play. I hope this isn't going to be one of those all fluff no stuff games.

I don't like the lack of RVS vote from Frogster though. Even if it's not much a vote is still the only way for town to make any headway, especially at this stage of the game. As an SE he should know that.
VOTE: Frogster

[MagikHorse]

I just wanted to see how they would react. I wasn't pushing to eliminate. Also, someone has to get limmed on day 1, and I want to pressure players and see how they react, helping our wincon

Have you managed on getting any useful reactions or info from the questions you're asking? I'm not seeing it if you are, but it's possible that I'm just a little too drowsy on the meds I'm on and missed it (though I won't be on these meds much longer fortunately).

I will say a few of those questions don't really seem to contribute much towards progressing the game, such as the one in 10. I can easily see how people would call those fluffy.

I don't want to press too hard when better than half of the players aren't active and have posted little useful information to make determinations with.

To be fair it's a weekend start, and people in general tend to post less on weekends. It's why slower prod timers on weekends are a decently common rule. I know I'm heavily limited in posting time on Saturdays myself, though I should be able to squeeze in time for one or two posts on Saturdays. Even then I'm not seeing the harm here in putting a little pressure on, unless you think it's distracting from something or leading to an early tunnel?

I would like to remind everyone that LAMIST and OMGUS were both tongue-in-cheek and in RVS.

Does being in RVS give people a free pass to be so flippant? Doesn't this sort of behavior only gum up the thread and make it harder to get out of RVS, especially if more people were to do it?

[MagikHorse]

You can make the statement that certain types of actions in RVS aren't useful, and that's certainly true. In what you quoted, I'm not saying "I get a free pass because it's RVS". I'm saying that it's NAI because it's RVS. Those are two different discussions in my opinion.

Saying that this behavior is NAI because it's RVS is the same thing as saying you shouldn't be read off of it, which is just another way of saying "gimme a pass on this behavior, it means nothing". They're one and the same.

Why do you think this is NAI anyways?

[MagikHorse]

I disagree. RVS is a time where you goof off and vote randomly, and then you learn from people's reactions to those random votes. Once people start reacting, RVS is over and then the goofing off ends.

In my opinion, overanalyzing RVS actions is unnecessary because the valuable information is in the

reactions

to the RVS. I could post as the first post of the game the words, "I am scum" and that is NAI because it's RVS.

OMGUS and LAMIST are scumtells, so I won't ever get to do them outside of RVS. I did them (in a tongue-in cheek way - as I literally said "LAMIST" and "OMGUS" in my posts, thus acknowledging them) because I thought it was funny and didn't matter. I still think that they are funny and that they don't matter.

NAI = Not Alignment Indicative

RVS doesn't just magically make things NAI, or else we end up in Shelly's scenario where nothing ever gets done because nothing means anything. If anything RVS shows the first things we have to look at, and so far all you're showing is that you don't care about the town, making progress, or getting to a better informed gamestate. I really don't like using "it's RVS" as an excuse to sit back and do completely nothing.

Scumtells are scumtells, regardless as to when they're done. OMGUS is less of a tell as sometimes there are plenty valid reasons to vote someone leading a wagon against you, but even then vote for those reasons and not just because OMGUS.

What do you think of the reactions you've garnered for your behavior? Have you at least gotten something from that?

[MagikHorse]

RVS doesn't just magically make things NAI, or else we end up in Shelly's scenario where nothing ever gets done because nothing means anything.

Excuse me, did I do nothing?

I apologize, but you've misunderstood me. I was referring to your hypothetical scenario you posted in 66, where we're stuck completely. I'm not trying to say you're doing nothing, but saying that calling RVS as all NAI leads a lot closer to that scenario.

[MagikHorse]

Okay, so there's an extra game dynamic going on here that I'm not familiar with. I'm gonna have to look at that game sometime when my mind's not addled by my meds.

I'm not seeing how Shelly's really "reposting" though. Could you elaborate on that a little?

[MagikHorse]

I agree with spending as much time as possible for the day. There are occurrences when it may be better to end the day early if the town falls too deeply into apathy or disinterest (e.g. after excessive amounts of replacements), but those are rather unlikely and quite frankly we'll know 'em when we see 'em.

I don't see the point of keeping pressure low. Pressure both gives people motivation to respond (and slip up), and there's plenty of information to be found in the rise and fall of wagons as well. Even then this feels wholeheartedly like a difference in playstyles, so it's not really very AI.

Frogster's description of me almost perfectly matches his description of himself, ironically enough. I happen to be 27, live in Ohio, and his description of me thus far is similar as well. You wouldn't happen to care for some Skyline Chili... would you?

[MagikHorse]

Prefacing by saying that this is probably NAI at this point, but I was curious so I assumed everyone else would be too:

Post count -
loz:

0

ItalianoVD:

7

shellyc:

14

Redados:

23

rocknil:

1

MUSHSHAGANA:

16

MagikHorse (SE):

7

Tatsuya Kaname (SE):

2

Frogsterking (SE):

4

This is not really helpful, given that anyone can simply scroll down to the bottom of the page, click "activity overview", and see every player's postcount at any moment. You can even get to everyone's ISOs from there too, just as you can by clicking the "ISO" button right next to the post number.

Are you just curious, or think there's something to gain from doing this? I'm suspecting the former for now given your preface.

[MagikHorse]

However I now may reflect my read in light of the current posts Redados has made. #81 was useful for comparing the activity levels. Yes... you may say that's NAI, but I feel like this is a protown thing to do.

Really easy towncred here really, if that's the case. Maybe you're not aware of the activity overview I mentioned above, but realistically it's something so easily posted as either alignment and so easy to do that I really can't call it anything but NAI. That's aside from the IIOA angle as well, but that's already been brought up.

[MagikHorse]

Call it anxiety or paranoia, but I’m not gonna feel comfortable with you until you are flipped and we know what your true alignment is.

I don't like this paranoid outlook at all. It makes it particularly hard to take you seriously regarding Shelly, especially as I don't see the biggest thing you've accused her of (repeating others) at all. VOTE: ItalianoVD

[MagikHorse]

Is this you leaving RVS or are you giving an RVS vote off the lack of an RVS vote?

The latter mostly, though a start like that is a good move towards the former.

[MagikHorse]

ONE MORE THING - how do you link posts lol, I have literally no idea

Code: Select all

[post]0[/post]

[MagikHorse]

Finally got back home to see a whole lot of fluff before I've even gotten a chance to play. I hope this isn't going to be one of those all fluff no stuff games.

I don't like the lack of RVS vote from Frogster though. Even if it's not much a vote is still the only way for town to make any headway, especially at this stage of the game. As an SE he should know that.
VOTE: Frogster

Is this you leaving RVS or are you giving an RVS vote off the lack of an RVS vote?

This is my RVS vote.

Why are you answering questions directed at me?

[MagikHorse]

Why are you answering questions directed at me?

I thought it was directed toward my late RVS vote.

Given that it directly quotes one of my posts talking about it, I would've thought it obvious who it was directed to. Can see it as an honest mistake though.

I felt like Redados was just being helpful. Redados strikes me as being more agreeable and accommodating.

There's being agreeable, then there's busywork for the sake of looking active. This looks a lot more like the latter than the former to me, especially as they admitted themselves that it wasn't useful to do and there's a button that does it for you (though it's possible, if not probable, that they weren't aware of that).

Okay, so there's an extra game dynamic going on here that I'm not familiar with. I'm gonna have to look at that game sometime when my mind's not addled by my meds.

I'm not seeing how Shelly's really "reposting" though. Could you elaborate on that a little?

Do you mind sharing now about the extra game dynamic you observed, Magik?

I was more noting that there seemed to be one that I wasn't aware of and promised to read through that game later. I haven't quite done so yet, as the drugs only wore off this morning and work took precedence (note: I currently work second shift, so I'm only getting back around 10PM-Midnight based on overtime needs). I'll probably read it over the course of a night or two and see if I find anything noteworthy from there or not.

Even then, I'm seeing one copied post and... that's about it really. The way it's been put to me makes it sound like it was a constant thing in that scumgame, not a singular instance like this. Also a really, really small sample size for a meta read anyways, but let's tackle this one bit at a time.

[MagikHorse]

In any event, I don’t like Magik’s framing of it. Even after Redados explained it in 73 he still wants to pressure. @MagikHorse: What else would you like to know? I’d like to know what made my push on Shelly different from Redados’ in your mind? Same question for MUSHSHAGANA.

You're the one pushing this a lot harder, even to the point of admitting to being tunneled on her, and that draws my eyes as I consider this a very, very bad read. Redados is sorta just throwing it at her in the middle of all the fluff and joking around, and though he's said it he's also not actively pursuing it like crazy.

To be blunt, one game is

not

a meta. You need at least two, one scum and one town, to be able to pick apart the differences between. Trying to meta read off of one game is destined to fail, and I don't like meta reads in general as more than a supporting argument for something stronger.

[MagikHorse]

This was my point. In the only game she played she was scum and she had tells. She uses those same tells in this game, which is her second game. You expect me to just say... “oh she’s probably town this game, even though she is doing the same thing and using the same tells she did as scum?” I’m not metareading per se because you can only meta read with more games. I only have one game to go by. Am I crazy? Does anyone else understand what I’m saying?

She's typing words. She did that during your scum game too I bet. Is she scum for that? Obviously not. This is a massively overblown hyperbole, but still the same sort of logic you've been using against her.

All you've seen is a scumgame. You claim an action is scummy because they did it while scum. You have no clue if they do this as town because you've never seen them be town, and yet assume you must be correct. This looks like a classic case of confirmation bias, and so I have to ask: What about this action specifically are they unable or unlikely to do as town? Is it reasonably possible that this is just part of their ordinary behavior?

I'll give you some credit for 149, but that's the first thing you've said so far against Shelly that actually has any real substance. Even then I find her aggression to be townie, and actually would put her as my highest townread thus far. The only thing that gives me pause is 134, which comes across a lot more stilted and unnatural to me than the rest of her aggressive posts.

[MagikHorse]

Hmm.

Fair enough.



I wonder if MagikHorse might have any thoughts on the same subject, then? Scum play versus anti-town townie play, the line between, where it is drawn? Also curious on Frogsterking's thoughts here. And if others want to throw their piece into the hat, I'll read those too, but I have a particular list of people whose thoughts on the matter are particularly interesting to me. (It's interesting that they're all the SEs, but that's the point, right? Learning.)

Honestly, the difference is all motivation. If it hinders the town it's anti-town, no matter what their alignment is. If it's something scum is more likely to do in a certain situation, it's scum play/scummy.

Let's be honest, even the best of town players will make mistakes that hurt the town, be unavailable a bit longer than they hoped and lurk a bit, or things like that. It's anti-town for sure, but not scummy. If it was meant to be anti-town play, such as intentionally lying without any real reason to, then things get scummy. The whole game is all about figuring which is which.

[MagikHorse]

Pretty much.

[MagikHorse]

Something I was thinking about. This is for MUSHSHAGANA and MagikHorse. Why are guys not questioning my townread on Redados? Redados is in the exact same category as shelly. It was his first game onsite and my first time playing with him. I’m using the exact same logic to read Redados that I am for shelly. If the premise of your argument is not to look at meta or to look at both the similarities and differences to come to my conclusion, then why not question my townread, why only the scumread? This is why I don’t necessarily like the push. I feel that if shelly is scum than one of you may be her partner.

I admit the Redados townread hardly even registered because you literally just said it once in 71 and haven't mentioned your read on Redados before or since, or any reasoning for doing so either. Even then "I want to think they're town but I don't know how they act as scum" still doesn't fly at all for the same reason the Shelly read does.

I went over all this in 154, but I never really got a response to that either. I'd like one.

[MagikHorse]

I wanna see more from Frederick before I make any call there. There's a lot of posts and a lot of fancy words and info, but I'm not actually seeing much there to sort him with yet.

Shelly, could you elaborate on Frogster? Last I knew you had him as null, and I don't really understand this scumread unless it's solely on his stated playstyle.

[MagikHorse]

Nah, that logic is fine. It just sounded like it might've turned into a scumread somewhere along the line and I was wondering if I missed something.

[MagikHorse]

I don't like 41, for a couple of reasons:

1. There are many better ways to get information other than voting randomly. The statement made about "

voting is the only way for town to make any headway

" is both a stretch and an overreaction to a non-issue.

Is there some reason not to use your vote? Even if its totally random you should probably be trying to do something with it. Even if it's not the most effective, doing something with it is better than doing nothing.

Even then the only way to win as Town is to eliminate the scum. The only way to eliminate scum is through voting. Therefore, voting is the only way to make headway towards victory. Though one can pressure with words one can only win through voting, and voting itself gives some pressure and force. Perhaps a bit of a stretch to attribute that to RVS voting specifically, but it is truth to the game as a whole.

2. SE or not, RVS depends on the type of player you are, it has very little to do with experience itself. There's a good amount of shade being thrown here with the "

as an SE, he should know that

" statement, and I don't feel like it's warranted. Statements like that should be made based on the player itself (and his/her play style), and not their experience with the game as a whole without any context.

You may have a point there. Even then I have never seen a non-newbie player fail to use their vote during RVS, so it came off as unusual right off the bat and worth pointing out at the time. It means a bit less knowing their claimed playstyle now, but I was unaware of that at the time.

Redados dodged MagikHorse's simple question in 128. While both the original post (81) and the question (105) aren't great, I find it odd that both Redados dodged the question and that MagikHorse never followed up on it. Why ask something if you're going to drop it without an answer? It's not a reactionary question in any shape or form, so there's little reason to drop it regardless of if you think you know the answer or not. This is especially true when you consider what MagikHorse said in 76 about pressure.

I more or less presumed an answer there really, as it really didn't look like he even thought about getting info from it. Doesn't help that my attention was pulled a lot more towards by Italiano by that point.

The initial vote was weak, and was dropped without any pressure being thrown from MagikHorse's side.

That's mostly because it was explained away in 74, and by then I was more using my words to push people and looking for a better vote target that was a bit more active.

If MagikHorse's vote on Frogsterking was (semi-)RVS, then he would've done a reactionary play that caused some amount of pressure onto Frogsterking. This not only would've strengthened everyone's read on Frogsterking, it would've allowed every players in the pool to create discussions and build opinions at a much faster rate. I say this because it's one of the sole reason why you RVS someone. RVS by itself doesn't help anyone, but the reactions and interactions you can create from it can. I'm not saying every (or any) other player in this game did this, however MagikHorse voted Frogsterking with weak reasoning which I would consider a semi-RVS and applicable to everything I just said.

I probably should have, but I was on medicine making me drowsy at the time and generally slowing my thoughts. It's not something that came to mind to me at the time, unlike the curiosity that spurned that vote.

If MagikHorse's vote itself was genuine, then he wouldn't have dropped it so easily. There was very little content from Frogsterking before that unvote that could've caused MagikHorse to vote swap. Because of this, MagikHorse could've caused a lot more pressure onto Frogsterking to solidify his read before potentially voting someone else regardless of if he still scum read Frogsterking or not.

This only works if it was "genuine", when it was lot more curiosity at an unusual play. even then the unvote was more because my attention was redirected elsewhere. I figured I could always return and sort Frogster later when he was more active and had more information.

[MagikHorse]

Van has made an effort to push MagikHorse... and nothing else. I don't know if that is AI, only focusing on MagikHorse.

He's had one post overall, and quite frankly all his points were worth the call out.

[MagikHorse]

All you've seen is a scumgame.

Exactly. All I’ve seen is a scumgame which means that’s all I have to go by.

You claim an action is scummy because they did it while scum. You have no clue if they do this as town because you've never seen them be town, and yet assume you must be correct.

Again, yes.

I think I've already explained rather well why this doesn't work. Do you not see the logical fallacy here, or are you choosing to ignore it?

This looks like a classic case of confirmation bias, and so I have to ask: What about this action specifically are they unable or unlikely to do as town? Is it reasonably possible that this is just part of their ordinary behavior?

Is confirmation bias alignment indicative? Because scum have information the townies don’t have, can they have confirmation bias? I’m genuinely asking because I don’t know. And yes it is reasonably possible this is shelly’s ordinary behavior and I’ve said I wasn’t disregarding it as a possibility in 177, but as I said I don’t have a town game to formulate a different conclusion.

Why are you forming a conclusion here at all without a town game? That's been my entire premise here, and something you don't seem to be able to understand.

And if anything the scum is always confirmation biased, as they already know everyone's alignment. Unless it's multiball, but that's a whole different beast.

Which reminds me, I never followed up on that myself. @MagikHorse, I feel like I gave you an out in 94, which I believe you took in 108. Why didn’t you go further if you said it was a good start to leaving RVS? You said that but never really honed in on what you were possibly feeling or reading with Frogster. 125 was the last interaction with him and there’s really nothing there that shows what you felt towards him and/or why you stopped voting for him.

As I said in 221, you had already pinged me hard with your completely and entirely illogical case against Shelly and dragged my attention away.

Something I was thinking about. This is for MUSHSHAGANA and MagikHorse. Why are guys not questioning my townread on Redados? Redados is in the exact same category as shelly. It was his first game onsite and my first time playing with him. I’m using the exact same logic to read Redados that I am for shelly. If the premise of your argument is not to look at meta or to look at both the similarities and differences to come to my conclusion, then why not question my townread, why only the scumread? This is why I don’t necessarily like the push. I feel that if shelly is scum than one of you may be her partner.

I admit the Redados townread hardly even registered because you literally just said it once in 71 and haven't mentioned your read on Redados before or since, or any reasoning for doing so either. Even then "I want to think they're town but I don't know how they act as scum" still doesn't fly at all for the same reason the Shelly read does.

Fair enough. And no, I am still basing it on the same logic used for shelly. I’ll get some reads up soon, but we still have time. Want to hear more from rock and van.

Awfully stubborn on this logic even though I've shown the fallacy repeatedly, aren't you?

I went over all this in 154, but I never really got a response to that either. I'd like one.

What else didn’t I respond to. You said ‘either’ as if I forgot to respond to something else. Let me know what I missed and I’ll get to it. As far as 154 goes, I’m not sure what else you want me to say. I think I’ve been pretty clear and open about the what, why, and how.

The "either" was me thinking about the Redados dodge, not something from you. Apologies for that. Your "what, why, and how" is still bad.

[MagikHorse]

MagikHorse, can I get your opinion of Italiano's play? My take is: emotionally charged reasoning presenting with logical face. His play is also centered on himself -- which manifests as Always Right (unwillingness to concede lost points, unwillingness to cooperate with other players, etc), and deeply entrenched reads (taking subjective view as objective truth).

Point of note: he seems to expect other players to also have self-centered play -- he distrusts other people changing their reads or conceding arguments, for instance. So this may not be AI, but I'm not necessarily interested in alignment sorting him based on the playstyle that /I/ see.

Accurate? Have I missed anything? Have I misread the playstyle in your eyes?

Thinking on it you're probably right here. I know can get really, really irked when someone is just that incapable of understanding what I'm saying, and probably fall into that same camp of not wanting to concede arguments when I'm certain that I'm correct as well. I'm not sure I've seen much of this distrust about changing reads or conceding arguments, but my eyes have rather obviously been elsewhere regarding him. An example of this would be nice.

Truth is still that there's a rather severe lack of actual logic in the reads hes made thus far, and I think it's probably better for me if I just ignore them altogether for now.

[MagikHorse]

I'm going to post my first public read: I think Frogsterking is town. If he isn't town, he's unreadable. I think his playstyle edges a bit toward anti-town overall, he's focused on game-solving over scum-hunting, but scum has no reason to give town a weapon like that paper. Arguably against their win condition to do so.

I'll note this read is conditional: his anti-town behavior is consistently game-solving (which comes from a town direction) and his towniness is based on a single event that gives away a lot of cover for lurker scum. It's a strong town read, but it isn't unbreakable.

By "game solving" are you talking about the theory talk? It certainly doesn't seem to be "game solving" as I know it, which would be trying to call the entire scumteam at once.

[MagikHorse]

Shelly can you explain what happened between 224 and 238 and what MUSH said to make you change?

I had always thought a No Eliminate didn't help town. I don't know how the two posts are relevant. #224 was talking about how Fredrick posted a load of nonsense. #238 was disagreeing Fredrick's no eliminate.

No elims essentially let the scum choose an extra kill. I have lost a town game before off of a day 2 no elim because the hammer was a few minutes late. That was not a very fun game.

From the context of the original post you've quoted it looks like it's asking for something between that range of posts, not those two posts specifically. Maybe take another look between them?

[MagikHorse]

Van is AWOL again too, but at least they did something useful with their one post.

[MagikHorse]

Agreed there. I'm hoping to see this engagement from Frederick as well, as I'd be voting him for his passiveness if he wasn't on the road toward shaping up.

[MagikHorse]

Well the recent development has been... interesting. I guess it is safe for scums to go for quiet players.

It's also good for town to squeeze people that aren't really doing anything, like you. Do you plan on helping the town in any way?

[MagikHorse]

Rocknil's reaction puts him at a tentative scumread for me, just saying. Practically everyone in the game has had a strong, sustained push on them at some point aside from Van, myself, and MagikHorse. Van, MagikHorse and I have gotten /shoves/, at least.

This was barely a hard poke, and "ah, ah, scum is attacking me" is the immediate reaction.

I was talking about some stink, but that's a big one right there for me. Could be pure new player and impossible to sort with, but I'm gonna go with new scum to be safe and maybe get him playing.

Was thinking similar things at work. It's not even limited to "ah, scum is attacking me", but throwing shade towards everybody that's trying to pressure the quiet players into doing something productive and stop lurking so badly. It's like a weird voteless OMGUS attack that's simultaneously trying to defend their bad play and others doing the same thing. If Rocknil flips red, it might be worth taking a closer look at the people that have been rather inactive before now.

I need to seriously pause and rethink Italiano, so I'd rather elim Rocknil or Frederick in that order of preference. Anyone else I'd need to see a case or something to consider.

[MagikHorse]

I thought that was Italinao's case. Last I recall Redados' case was "you were too defensive".

[MagikHorse]

Well, my Saturday got all sorts of flooded. Saturdays are rather busy for me anyways, so meh.

Catching up now.

[MagikHorse]

I've given myself enough time to let the thread sink in I think and MagikHorse stuck out too much.

In my opinion if the rocknil lynch will just go down like that either i just nailed it straight out of the park or the scum are in the mid-activity posters like magikhorse and if not him then italiano. I feel too much for the hubris and what-not which makes me change even if that means sometimes i was just right the first time.

Why do I stick out, and what are you saying regarding the Rocknil elim here?

[MagikHorse]

Second reframe: Shelly is a high information target for elimination, MagikHorse is not. MagikHorse has done far less interacting with the majority of players, more bouncing off of them than pushing anything too hard. Since Frogster’s MagikHorse vote is in part based on scum-interpreted Shelly interactions, I would recommend her over him.

So you don't think I was pushing hard on Italiano at all then? Sure it was somewhat based on his bad logic, but I was at least trying to crack through to see if there were some shady motivations behind that. I could easily see scum!Italiano trying to get revenge on Shelly from the game before and hoping I'd see something to indicate that within.

[MagikHorse]

If we lim rocknil we get 0 associative tells as they have only townread Mush (which was pretty much universal anyways)

If we lim me you get an abundance of tells and analysis. I guess I will get my own wagon starting. Good luck to y'all tomorrow. My pure town energy will be in the dead thread.

Vote:shellyc

I wish I could say I saw this coming, but I didn't see this coming. Even then it feels like an emotional player caught up in frustration trying to be helpful in the wrong way?

You guys are right on Rocknil though. CLATS is not a great scenario without supporting reasons.

[MagikHorse]

@magikhorse

if u could insta-kill anyone right now who would it be?

Honestly, Frederick at this point. I think Shelly is just emotional town, and everyone's right about the lack of info from a Rocknil flip.

[MagikHorse]

I think shellyc is behaving rather townily because of her utter willingness to be the hang. However, some of you have said that she played similarly in your last game with her? That doesn't make me feel as good.
Right now, I have Italiano, MUSH, and shelly(tentatively) as town. I have Redados, Frogster, and Fredrick in my null pile. I am fine with hanging either MagikHorse or rocknil. MagikHorse because I think he has been mostly unoffensive in his posts and I noticed he tends to react to other people instead of bringing up new things. I think scum would take this route more often than not because it's quite safe and it's easy to get townread for it. rocknil because he isn't doing much.

My second shift schedule isn't helping as all but the late night posts (and Sunday day posts, maybe the occasional Saturday afternoon post) are made while I'm either asleep, at work, or otherwise out for the day, which makes it harder to respond in live-time. Add a relatively new work schedule (and building) to the drugged up start, and this hasn't quite been the best game for me thus far.

Even then, if my plan was to be safe why risk claiming the Shelly townread when most people at the time were scumreading her?

[MagikHorse]

Second reframe: Shelly is a high information target for elimination, MagikHorse is not. MagikHorse has done far less interacting with the majority of players, more bouncing off of them than pushing anything too hard. Since Frogster’s MagikHorse vote is in part based on scum-interpreted Shelly interactions, I would recommend her over him.

So you don't think I was pushing hard on Italiano at all then? Sure it was somewhat based on his bad logic,

but I was at least trying to crack through to see if there were some shady motivations behind that.

I could easily see scum!Italiano trying to get revenge on Shelly from the game before and hoping I'd see something to indicate that within.

And did you find what you looking for? What are your thoughts on others in the playerlist?

I found something alright, but mostly that you're more stubborn than my uncle's mule even in the face of being dead wrong. I still need to take a step back and reconsider what that means, but first that means taking a break to clear out my mind instead of letting my imagination run wild.

As to everyone else, you already know I townread Shelly alongside consensus townread Mush. I don't like Frederick or the inactivity of Rocknil and scumread both.

I haven't looked into LavarManos yet, and need to reread Redados completely. Frogster is rather null to me so far, but I'd only lynch him as a contingency.

[MagikHorse]

I've already been over the Italiano stuff before. I gave it as much attention as it took in my mind, and that's about all there is to it. I'm still paranoid there, but that's about all I have there.

As to the Van shove, how did you expect me to respond to it then? I was on meds at the time that affected my thinking abilities, and it likely created that plethora of early mistakes Van called me out on. Should I lie for self-preservation? Should I accuse him for being right? No, both of those are bad plays as either alignment. If he's right he's right, even with the meds as an excuse to cover my butt, so why then is it overly agreeable to accept the truth as truth?

[MagikHorse]

Speaking of voting mine is still on Italiano, though that is 100% not happening today. Frederick is better than Rocknil information-wise, so that's where it goes. If I need to move it to avoid a noelim I can in 21-24 hours-ish, though I hope it won't be necessary.

VOTE: Frederick

[MagikHorse]

I wasn't desperate to have people townread me. In fact, I now feel MagikHorse is warlocking me as scum. When almost all of town are pushing for my eliminate, MagikHorse is reading me as town and is trying to pocket me.

I am aware of this danger. I am fine with being eliminated. But just remember that I will flip town. I'm already dead now, basically.

Been there, heard this before back in Newbie 1912 when I defended Loopdan. I still stand that I gain nothing by "pocketing" a corpse, same as I did back then, unless you count extra attention and closer scrutiny.

I don't have as great a case as I did with Loopdan in 1912, but it boils down to recognizing your significant effort to get the game started and out of RVS, a multitude of realistic sounding emotional responses like your frustration with Frederick in 141 and 142, and the fact that I can't recall a legitimate case against you, with everything being based off of your playstyle or bad meta reads. I don't think I really understand a single point that's been lodged against you really, though it might be too late either way at this stage.

[MagikHorse]

Aside from Shelly and Frogster: everyone explain why I’m town.

Drawing out information through the early game (even using fluffier posts to do so), plenty of informative "hot takes" like 89 and 304 that aren't afraid to ruffle a few feathers, and snapping me out of the dumb Italiano argument helps as well (I daresay scum would've probably been happy if I just kept my focus on him all day long). Overall you're utterly oozing with drive and determination to figure players out, not just eliminate them, and you've now kept to your promise to explain things as well.

I would still like a response to 431 though, though I will amend that I've re-ISO'd Italiano and found his 149 rather weird, like he was trying to placate the town with a more valid reason to justify the Shelly scumread when we started to squeeze down on him about his fallacious logic. Am I reading too much into this, or is this worth the callout?

[MagikHorse]

That post took way too long. My internet is having a stroke or something.

[MagikHorse]

Weak. If you’re gonna call me out, then call me out. And yes that read was facetious, since you and Mush were saying how bad my reasons for reading Shelly were. You, however, responded and said it was better and now you wanna come back and push it again?

The only way I said it was better was that it was the first thing with any substance to it, but on reread I'm questioning whether it was naturally made or forced out to try and get us off of your back. I can agree that it's better but question why that improvement was made, can I not?

I don't think asking to see if my head is on straight is a bad thing either, especially since I felt like I was projecting malicious intent onto your stubbornness to your bad case a ton earlier, and don't want to risk doing the same again. Better to check my head if I think I might be going off in the wrong direction than to proceed and dig myself into the same hole again.

[MagikHorse]

This whole post is unnecessary paranoia and simply going in a circle.

I thought it miht've, which is why I was asking whether it was sensible or not. Seems I've still got too much paranoia here, which is good to know.

See you guys tomorrow, as I'm off to work.

[MagikHorse]

Here's a quote from MagikHorse in the Dead Thread: "My secret? Just forget your partner's alignment and play naturally."

I still feel that's cheating. If you aren't mentally conscious of who your partner is, then you're going against the foundation of what I feel being mafia means: you have all the information.

It's deliberately denying yourself that info to give yourself an in-game advantage that you shouldn't have. I like playing fair and would never try something like that.

Almost50 did it in a game a few weeks ago, and it's frustrating. Like if you really feel you need an underhanded advantage like that to win, then fine.

I honestly don't mind it when people cheat, because I believe it means winning is really important to their self-validation. Or maybe cheaters cheat because they assume everyone cheats? I don't know.

Anyway sorry for the random rant! I thoroughly enjoyed this game regardless!

Nahdia, thank you for hosting. I loved all the photos of lilies!

The information is a byproduct of the role, but the basis for the role is to lie and deceive until only your faction (and its allies if relevant) can remain.

In essence it's not about the information you have, but how you try to look town

(or don't), and strategies on how to do that best vary as much as each individual snowflake. I understand you not liking this particular game plan, but it's definitely not cheating or unfair in any manner to ignore information you have, especially as it's hard to forget completely once you know. It'll always be there, tingling in the back of your mind no matter how hard you try.

Keep in mind that while scum does have all the information (or at least more than town does), they absolutely need to fake that they don't or they will quickly be caught. In that sense dishonesty is an utter baseline requirement as scum, as anything that reveals that you're more informed than the others is an instant red flag and will likely result in your demise. By extension hiding your extra information is a requirement to playing scum. All I did was take it a step further than most, and yet still found time to talk in the scum chat all the while. It's not easy to pull off effectively to this degree, and easy to slip up and fail altogether trying.

In that regard I'm surprised my extreme paranoia on Italiano D1 didn't get called out after their red flip as a fake-sounding push. To be honest this sort of paranoia is wholly uncharacteristic of me to begin with, as it's never happened in any game thus far to this sort of degree regardless of my alignment, and should've been a point brought up in later days. It could've potentially swung the endgame entirely if it was called out later in the game. In that regard I liked Shelly actually calling it out as faked, though by that point everyone was stupidly dead-set on her. That elim made me cringe, and I was scum.

[MagikHorse]

good game scum. Italiano and Magik distanced very well and Casey's opening actually read very town to me.

sad I got limmed d1 but scum definitely deserved to win this

looking forward to scum PT. Did you deliberately strategise the distancing?

Not even remotely. The most "planned distancing" there was was a single question from Italiano asking me if it would make sense to attack me for attacking him, and I simply responded with "do what feels right to you". All of this, at least from my end, was authentic.

[MagikHorse]

ignoring the fact that you have a partner is a perfectly valid strategy imo. it can work to great effect, like it did in this game, but there's a big risk involved too. players tend to think their partners are a lot more obvious when they

know

their alignment (this also happens in spoiled dead threads: it's called Graveyard Vision). blocking that out is difficult for many people. and if you're really not going to put any stock in the fact that you have a partner, you risk setting yourself up to buss them when it's not optimal to do so.

I know I've seen such scenarios of unoptimal bussing before. It's definitely a risky, yet rewarding strategy at any rate.