Newbie 2025 | Lilies | Game Over

[Fredrick A Campbell]

Currently at post 20 and going to sleep.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

On the subject of what is the best play for town, I don't think piling votes on one particular player such that they are very few votes away from an execution in the very early game is too useful as I don't think there is a way to conclude the player's alignment from the way the player reacts.

I don't see much to comment on for now. If anyone would like my comment on anything, feel free to make a post on the matter.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

By the way, so there is no ambiguity on what I know, I have finished reading this thread.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

Who do you think is scummiest now, or are you not having reads yet?

I think you have behaved the scummiest of all the players who have posted. However, I don't really think that is as relevant as whom I think is most likely to be scum.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

What is the reason you regard me as scummy?

You seemed more concerned about being right than winning the game.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

...



Finally, I have a question for Frederick A Campbell: what distinguishes, in YOUR eyes, scum play from anti-town town play? Is there a distinction at all?

I request clarity for the meaning of scum play. That phrase is not well defined in my vocabulary and makes it hard for me to talk about as I switch between definitions within the same sentence, making it all the more confusing, both for me and everyone reading.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

You seemed more concerned about being right than winning the game.

What do you mean by this? I don't understand

The post below is the post from which I drew the conclusion.

Oh so just because I smashed town makes you paranoid of me? And just because I missed a post and posted the same thing you suspect me? I don't want you carrying grudges from one game to the other to affect your read on me.

I am town and I will flip town. If I have to flip to prove you right I will willingly champion my own wagon. I just don't get why you are so paranoid about me.

Just because I prefer / pursue a more aggressive and proactive style of play makes me "concerned about being right"... that's weird

I am keeping my vote on Redados for now. Among the active players, they are scummiest. My gut says Fredrick isn't great but let's see.

The post above shows that you are comfortable to assign a reason for why I came to the conclusion with disregard for the reason's accuracy. I suggest you start to attempt to understand the reasons a person holds their position instead of assigning reasons for it as failing to do so will result in your unintentional misrepresentation of a person's arguments and come across as disingenuous. I believe this will make you appear more reasonable in future arguments.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

"come" should be "coming" for the sentence containing come in the post above to be grammatically accurate for clarity I will edit by way of post (EBWOP) the last paragraph below:

The post above shows that you are comfortable to assign a reason for why I came to the conclusion with disregard for the reason's accuracy. I suggest you start to attempt to understand the reasons a person holds their position instead of assigning reasons for it as failing to do so will result in your unintentional misrepresentation of a person's arguments and coming across as disingenuous. I believe this will make you appear more reasonable in future arguments.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

The first sentence in the post above should have been split in two sentences. For clarity I will EBWOP the first sentence in the post above below:

"come" should be "coming" for the sentence containing "come" in the post above to be grammatically accurate. For clarity I will edit by way of post (EBWOP) the last paragraph below:

[Fredrick A Campbell]

This is also not a grammar thread.

I was attempting to make myself understood.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

The post above shows that you are comfortable to assign a reason for why I came to the conclusion with disregard for the reason's accuracy. I suggest you start to attempt to understand the reasons a person holds their position instead of assigning reasons for it as failing to do so will result in your unintentional misrepresentation of a person's arguments and coming across as disingenuous. I believe this will make you appear more reasonable in future arguments.

This is not an argumentation or debate thread.

What's your point?

[Fredrick A Campbell]

Instead of advising me how to defend myself, why don't we actually try and scumhunt?

How do you suggest we do that?

[Fredrick A Campbell]

...

@Frederick: welcome to the game.

Thank you.

I’m not liking shelly’s responses to Frederick. Seems unnecessarily hostile and defensive. Does this qualify as a good enough read?

In my opinion, the observation is accurate. However, I don't think it necessarily means she is a mafioso, just an egotistical person. shellyc, describing you as egotistical is not meant as an insult, but just a description.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

On revision of what egotistical means, I think it is a tad bit too harsh as a description. I think a person who prefers to win arguments is a more accurate descriptor and a lot less harsh.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

Upon further reconsideration of shellyc's personality reflected by her posts, I think she thought I was looking for a fight. Really makes her actions extremely non-alignment indicative.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

Shelly seems unnecessarily hostile in general, I'd say. Some people have that as a behavioral trait, scum or town, as Frederick says. I used to be one of them, and I'm not just talking about Mafia. (I've managed to mostly dial that back.)

...

I remember when I used to be that way too and probably still am.

...



For Frederick: I was asking in the most general sense. ANY play that comes across as scum play versus ANY play that comes off as town that isn't working in town's favor. I want a really high level overview of where your line is drawn, even if it's a thin and insubstantial line.

If I take scum play to mean any play that came from scum, I think my definitions overlap but it is hard to define a phrase I don't even remember using. I actually don't use the phrase "anti-town play" either. Typically, if I want to say I think someone is a mafioso for something, I would usually state the action and say that I think the action suggests the person is very likely to be a mafioso.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

I'm not quoting you, I'm asking about play styles that connect to "scum" and "anti-town townie" as classes of player, and what separates those play styles for you.

It is quite possible you don't even recognize these things as meaningful to distinguish between, which I did also ask about! In which case I'd find it useful to get the "I don't think there's a meaningful distinction" answer too.

I don't think I have ever placed any play style into either of those categories, even mentally. I really doubt whole play styles can be considered scum though. What would that even mean? For a play style to be considered anti-town, how do you even draw a line? A play style would consist of actions and if some are anti-town while others are not, which category are you going to place it in? Personally, when dealing with play styles just like personalities, I don't place them in categories. Instead, I just name it after the user or person, like I would call your play style MUSHSHAGANA's play style instead of placing it into an anti-town, scum, or whatever category and strip the playstyle of all nuance that have observable changes over time.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

So you don't consider that to be a meaningful distinction, then?

I don't consider those categories to be meaningful either.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

Ok, I realise my reactions to Frederick were overblown. He came in and listed me as scumread. I was curious why, and then he said that I was overly egoistical and self focused. I was surprised at that and posted in a different tone to my other posts.

MagikHorse seems to be the only person that townreads me in this thread. That's a little unusual.

Also Frederick, you scumread me at first, then suddenly said I was NAI after a few posts.

I thought and think that the behaviour is scummy, but probably not-alignment indicative. I don't think thinking your behaviour is scummy constitutes as a scumread since I don't think you are mafia for your behaviour.

As for the egoistical part of what I said, I think I selected the wrong word and I said that it was harsh. I didn't specify that I thought it was unsuitable and not just harsh, but that was what I meant. I don't think it is too useful to put people into categories on second thought. So, I am not going to try and find another word that fits the part of your personality displayed in the thread anymore.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

As far as I am concerned, it is all fine and I have found no fault with it. I have no idea where is the "hidden habanero" you were talking about in the second part.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

Hey Frederick, I just thought of a couple of questions for you! Mainly because you replaced in recently and I noticed you had just finished moderating a game.

1) Have you noticed anything telling about lobbies on this site where all of the scum players became among the top 5 most active players in the game on D1?

...

No, I have not noticed that. I have compiled the following table from the game I moderated on the number of posts made by the players and their replacements added together at the end of Day 1.

Initial Player and their Replacements in the Order in which they enter the Game	Number of Posts	Alignment
bob3141	40	Town
notscience	174	Town
geraintm	59	Town
UnaBombaH	102	Mafia
Sujimichi, Replacement for Sujimichi	30	Mafia
Klick, Porkens (Porkens' first post on Day 2)	96	Town
Bellaphant	63	Town
Emperor flippyNips, Not_Mafia (Not_Mafia's first post on Day 2)	23	Town
Galron	62	Town
Hoopla	88	Mafia
popopopopopopo	22	Town
Isis	120	Town
Dunnstral	128	Town

To ascertain if the data suggests a correlation that is better than random chance, we will establish what is the chance that you would select all the three mafioso should you select 5 players at random. To do so, add up the probability of all possible scenarios in which selecting 5 at random will give you 3 specific players.

Let x be the probability that all 3 mafioso are in 5 random players.

x = 10/13*9/12*3/11*2/10*1/9 + 10/13*3/12*9/11*2/10*1/9* + 10/13*3/12*2/11*9/10*1/9 + 10/13*3/12*2/11*1/10*9/9 + 3/13*10/12*9/11*2/10*1/9 + 3/13*10/12*2/11*9/10*1/9 + 3/13*10/12*2/11*1/10*9/9 + 3/13*2/12*10/11*9/10*1/9 + 3/13*2/12*10/11*1/10*9/9 + 3/13*2/12*1/11*10/10*9/9
= 10 ((10*9*3*2*1)/(13*12*11*10*9))
= 5/143 ≈ 3.50%

If there is no correlation, investigating 143 games with 13 players and 3 mafia within them should only have approximately 5 games in which what you are suggesting is the case. I have not collected enough data to ascertain if what you are suggesting is true.

Assuming that there is a correlation, the game I moderated is an outlier as the players with the most posts at the end of day 1 are notscience, Dunnstral, Isis, UnaBombaH, and Klick. Only one of these players were a mafioso.

...

and

2) Have you noticed anything telling about lobbies on this site where all of the scum players became among the top 5 most townread players in the game on D1?

I have not noticed that either. I have not collected enough data to ascertain if this is true either.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

To be clear, I'm more critical of Frogster for this than of Frederick, though Frederick putting so much effort into this mostly pointless exercise is not great either.

I didn't think it was pointless until I was done with it. By then, I thought I might as well just publish the results, or rather the lack of it.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

...

Frederick is adamantly against categorization, in a game where town wins by categorizing actions, intent and motivations. He sees no utility in the play-style categories of "anti-town townie" and "scum". The other two agree these have meaning, even if they think they're either too overlapped to draw a line between or that they're essentially in separate domains.

...

Town wins by deducing intent and motivations from actions. Categorization reduces the possible intents and motivations one can deduce from observed actions to the number of categories you have.

...

His playstyle seems accommodating to a fault. Rock the boat? Not our Frederick, never him. He's unfocused in play thus far, and reactive rather than proactive -- he rarely (a quick skim suggests "never" might be more accurate) initiates questioning or interaction, though he readily responds to it. At 20 posts, he's past the point where every other player in the game had started making moves rather than passively reacting to others moving around them -- and he has not.

(A quick note that almost all of our active players and one of our inactives had started making moves and asking pointed questions before their 15th post. Redados is the only truly active player who I think may have had 15 posts before getting serious at all, though I'm insufficiently caffeinated to double-check at the moment.)

This isn't a scumread (yet), but it is a note of peculiar behavior. Time to raise the pressure a little, I think.

I simply have yet to observe anything of note.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

Hey Frederick, I just thought of a couple of questions for you! Mainly because you replaced in recently and I noticed you had just finished moderating a game.

1) Have you noticed anything telling about lobbies on this site where all of the scum players became among the top 5 most active players in the game on D1?

and

2) Have you noticed anything telling about lobbies on this site where all of the scum players became among the top 5 most townread players in the game on D1?

After going through all that trouble of answering one of you questions, I have got to know what was the point of these questions?

[Fredrick A Campbell]

Considering you didn't even use the right numbers for the generalized probability and you could have used https://www.dcode.fr/picking-probabilities or a similar selection probability calculator to easily re-calculate something at least distantly tangentially useful, I'm not pleased with this by any means.

(That generalized probability for a 7/2 setup, for the record, comes out to roughly a 27.7777...% chance of both scum being in a random given selection of five players. Which means your mistake was genuinely dangerous, potentially risking town deciding not to scum-hunt among actives.)

My vote stays on you.

I don't understand why would town decide not to scum-hunt among actives because of what I did. If anyone were to read the post, they would have clearly seen I was talking about 13 players with 3 mafioso without bothering to see my calculation.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

I disagree. RVS is a time where you goof off and vote randomly, and then you learn from people's reactions to those random votes. Once people start reacting, RVS is over and then the goofing off ends.

RVS is when we get all the info for the rest of the game. If we don't get info out of RVS, what's the point? You basically said RVS was a time to play around and not be serious, which isn't true.

I do not think that we get all the information for the rest of the game in the Random Voting Stage. Every other part of the game is just as useful to get information.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

...

To be clear: I think keeping pressure low is a good idea to get initial engagement, and then you can dig into that deeply. Since so many are so confused, I'll give the game away: if you're too intense too early and not everyone has checked in and established a pattern of interaction, they get to pretend like they're just playing a quiet game. Once you establish a pattern of interaction, you can press on pattern changes instead of just flailing at a nearly empty corpus of posts for one user. Who might not respond to you, if they just post a single line of near-zero content garbage once a day or so.

...

So, what is the plan now. We just wait till Day 1 is over with no one executed?

[Fredrick A Campbell]

EBWOP: So, what is the plan now? We just wait till Day 1 is over with no one executed?

[Fredrick A Campbell]

...

In the spirit of continuing this: I'd like to note that you were saying nothing interesting (well, nothing "of note") had happened, then now you suddenly dug up a contentious post from around 130 posts prior to you saying nothing of note was going on! Well, which was it? Nothing of note, or was it interesting that I took the stance I did? Otherwise, why dig up a dead discussion that clearly no longer applied to my play?

...

I still think nothing of note was going on. Why I suddenly dig up a post from around 130 posts prior is precisely because nothing of note is going on.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

I still think nothing of note was going on. Why I suddenly dig up a post from around 130 posts prior is precisely because nothing of note is going on.

No eliminate only helps scum. Scum will kill one townie every day. No eliminate means we have a 0% chance of killing scum.

...

While I agree with what you are saying, what has that got to do with the post you quoted?

[Fredrick A Campbell]

...



Also, a reminder that Frederick's total contributions to the game are a weak scumread on Shelly, the dislike of categorization of playstyles or people, a pointless bit of math geekery, and the constant reiteration that everything in this game is boring. Oh, no, also floating the idea of no-elimination. So five things.

I was just pointing out that we were practically doing nothing and it seemed like we were headed towards a no-execution.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

I still think nothing of note was going on. Why I suddenly dig up a post from around 130 posts prior is precisely because nothing of note is going on.

No eliminate only helps scum. Scum will kill one townie every day. No eliminate means we have a 0% chance of killing scum.

Also Mush, are you going to share your reads or what? I am not a fan of how you are keeping your reads to yourself.

I do slightly agree with your Fredrick read however - they are firmly in my lynchpool and that initial interaction with me still sticks in my brain as a scum trying to pressure me, which didn't look that good.

Finally, why do you think that initial interaction with you seems like scum trying to pressure you?

[Fredrick A Campbell]

Finally, why do you think that initial interaction with you seems like scum trying to pressure you?

1. You entered by saying that I behaved the scummiest but may not be scum.

This is illogical

and a good townie would vote out whoever isn't being protown.
2. You then said I was prone to winning arguments. I don't consider it scummy -

wanting to win arguments

isn't AI at all
3. Then they speed-retracted their scumread on me in #150 and #152 - they could have interacted / pushed me more, but they

randomly called me null

after calling me scum a few posts ago... doesn't make any logical sense at all.

Without a solid logical progression and your passivity while interacting with me, I am inclining scum on this slot.

1. I believe I have clarified this but I will do it again. Behaving the scummiest does not mean the person is aligned with the mafia. Why should I want to vote someone out whom I don't think is the mafia?
   
2. I didn't say you were prone to winning arguments. I said you preferred to win arguments or, as you put it in the same point, want to win arguments. I consider it scummy behaviour, but like I said, don't think it is alignment indicative.
   
3. In the first place, I just said you behave the scummiest. In the very post I posted indicating whom I thought behaved the scummiest, I have already stated clearly that I thought who I thought behaved the scummiest mattered less than whom I thought was scum.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

VOTE: shellyc

I do not like it that you decide to ignore the argument I just made.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

They pointed out we were doing nothing; yet did nothing to change that. They tried to push me and then deflatedly backed off. They haven't posted a single impression or read on anyone. They have done literally nothing.

My finger of suspicion stays on Fredrick.

My post pointing it out was an attempt to change that.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

helly didn't like my playstyle surrounding my vote of Frederick, but otherwise had no real reason to offer that might make me back off.

I just didn't like using maths to discredit people. I scumread them for their interactions with me - trying to push me, then backing off and trying to frame me as null. They still have not pushed anything. They have not voiced their thoughts or susses. That's erratic, pointless and non town-helping play.

Who do you think is scummiest now, or are you not having reads yet?

I think you have behaved the scummiest of all the players who have posted. However, I don't really think that is as relevant as whom I think is most likely to be scum.

I actually said that I thought the question you asked me about who I thought was behaving the scummiest was irrelevant. I imagined you would have asked me who I thought was scum since that was to me more relevant or asked me why I thought who I thought was behaving the scummiest was irrelevant. Instead, you got all caught up about why I thought you were behaving the scummiest when I clearly said I thought it was irrelevant. For clarification this paragraph is about the "trying to push you" part of your post. As far as I am concerned, my saying that I thought you behaved the scummiest but that was irrelevant was clearly saying that behaving the scummiest does not mean the person was scum. I expected that you were able to see nuance. Since you can't, I'm not going to make this post brief and fill it with nuance, since it will be all lost on you.

I wonder if you getting this caught up about me thinking you behaved the scummiest is because you are a mafioso and are terrified that I somehow thought you are scum. Hence, my vote is on you.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

That last post I made is a mess. It's embarrassing. If I could, I'd delete it out of shame. My only defense is that I'm busy dealing with infuriating tech problems. Sorry that everyone has to see that trainwreck.

Why do you think it is a mess?

[Fredrick A Campbell]

You say nothings happening while everyone else sees quite a lot. You bring up nothing is happening but offer no explanations of how that could be changed.

"Just, you know, do the thing!" -> "What thing is that even supposed to mean?"

That smells more like a cop-out than actual intent, to me.

You do realise that the first step to change the fact that nothing is happening would be to have people be more active. What better way to do this than to post something controversial?

[Fredrick A Campbell]

Gee, you mean like the entire style of play I've been using from the start? That you've responded to by saying that nothing of note is going on?

And considering most of the players have had at least some amount of semi-activity by now... and plenty of AI activity, at that... Do tell me, what WOULD it take to make you wake up? Someone posting a wall of "I am scum, fight me about it"? Come on, Frederick, what is NOT boring to you?

This game is not boring to me in the first place. When I said I have not seen anything of note, I meant that I have not observed anything that may be alignment indicative. I have lowered my standard to anything that may be suspicious because I am very unlikely to find anything that met the original standard.

As for what you were doing from the start, that, to me, was not exactly notable as it could come from either alignment. It wasn't even scummy because the intent appears to be to spark discussion. Hence, it wasn't notable. The responses to your post could, again, come from either alignment in my opinion. Hence, it wasn't notable.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

One more thing, plenty of AI activity? Really? I have not observed that and I don't believe I have missed a post.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

And as we all have discussed, in fact as you yourself stated, there is no useful distinction in your eyes between anti-town townie and scum play. In fact, you don't even like those categories at all, don't find them meaningful.

So what, precisely, did you expect to see in terms of alignment indicative behavior? Give me an example of something, anything, that is town or scum indicative. Come on. It'll be FUN.

A pattern of behaviour. That to me is more alignment indicative than any standalone post.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

...



Frederick, who does not have a pattern of behavior other than van? Everyone else has a MARKED pattern. I can basically guess how any other player will react at this stage to certain theoretical events. In your case, it will probably be to be bland and non-committal, the way you have been from jump.

You're right. I noticed that there actually has been enough information for me to ascertain the alignments of several players by now with varying degrees of certainty after answering your question of what I thought was alignment indicative.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

I somehow failed to mention that I am looking into several ISO's now.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

Still looking into ISOs. As of right now, I am town-reading Redados, but I'm not done with it yet.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

Still looking into ISOs. As of right now, I am town-reading Redados, but I'm not done with it yet.

Any reasoning behind it? What posts do you see that display a townie mindset?

It is his willingness to admit that he made a mistake.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

My primary execution target is shellyc now. Give me several hours to do some things I have to get done and I will elaborate. I promise I will be less than 24 hours.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

When I first entered the game and thought she behaved the scummiest of all the players, I thought her thinking I had a scumread on her was because she simply failed to understand that I didn't necessarily think she was scum. However, as she continued to say that I scumread her from the start despite my many attempts at clarification, I chalked it up to the possibility she really believes that I thought she was scum and retracted it. This belief has been shattered after I see that she could clearly imagine a possibility in which something explicit was not said here. However, within that post in which I said I thought she behaved the scummiest, I made it very clear I made a distinction between behaving the scummiest and likely to be scum and even thought that whoever I thought was behaving the scummiest was irrelevant. Yet, she could not understand it despite my many attempts at clarification. I believe the most likely possibility now is that she has deliberately not understood to continue to scumread me.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

Town's wincon is to eliminate all the scum. If my eliminate helps town find the scum I am willing to do so.

I am under the impression you are not interested in explaining why you thought I scumread you from the start.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

When I first entered the game and thought she behaved the scummiest of all the players, I thought her thinking I had a scumread on her was because she simply failed to understand that I didn't necessarily think she was scum. However, as she continued to say that I scumread her from the start despite my many attempts at clarification, I chalked it up to the possibility she really believes that I thought she was scum and retracted it. This belief has been shattered after I see that she could clearly imagine a possibility in which something explicit was not said here. However, within that post in which I said I thought she behaved the scummiest, I made it very clear I made a distinction between behaving the scummiest and likely to be scum and even thought that whoever I thought was behaving the scummiest was irrelevant. Yet, she could not understand it despite my many attempts at clarification. I believe the most likely possibility now is that she has deliberately not understood to continue to scumread me.

idk. i am working on a response to your data you posted earlier. it would help if u posted the results of the iso u were reading earlier.

I only finished going through Redados ISO and how long it took me to do so is reminding me why I usually don't go through ISOs to ascertain alignment. I have found that typically I only remember the last thing made me conclude someone is a certain alignment instead of every little detail before that that brought me to the conclusion unless I take notes while reading through, which I didn't and on second thought should have.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

I am under the impression you are not interested in explaining why you thought I scumread you from the start.

I have explained. I was under the impression that scummy = being scum. I am sorry for misunderstanding, but attacking me for a simple misunderstanding isn't helping town.

Fair enough.

UNVOTE:

[Fredrick A Campbell]

shellyc had failed to make coherent thoughts throughout this game. How is she suddenly able to come up with the idea of fake claiming a power role?

[Fredrick A Campbell]

Unfortunately, I don't really have any strong reads to offer. Even my town-read on Redados is extremely weak.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

Actually, looking at the player list, it seems that I have a minor townread on everyone except for shellyc and rocknil.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

Actually, looking at the player list, it seems that I have a minor townread on everyone except for shellyc and rocknil.

So are you gonna vote for them?

I don't see the point.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

I won't be around at the last hour before the deadline. Unless you guys are fine for a hammer in six hours or less than six hours before deadline, I can't place the hammer.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

Anyone have any last contributions? 12 hours and some change left, a hammer vote is coming sooner or later at this point, and one of us won't be here for Day 2. Get your last impulses and reads and ideas out, tell us Day 2 plans, etc.

IMO this Italiano / Magik interaction for calling Italiano out seems off to me. (This is just a gut feeling)

I also have an opinion on the interaction.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

I also have an opinion on the interaction.

Oh are you going to state it or what?

Actually, I think it should be fine for me to state it. I think the interaction is unlikely to be scum acting. Should it be true that it wasn't scum acting, at least one of them is town.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

Goodnight to you too. I'm heading to bed as well.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

As far as I was concerned, my vote didn't matter. The person we were going to execute was going to be shellyc and I was convinced by MUSHSHAGANA that it was not a good idea to suggest an alternative execution, which, as it happens I didn't have. Although my scumread on shellyc waned later, I still thought it was not a good idea to make that public, for I had no alternative execution.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

As for why I didn't hammer shellyc, I trusted MUSHSHAGANA to do it, as she said she would switch her vote over anytime but wanted to let others put their thoughts out.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

As far as I was concerned, my vote didn't matter. The person we were going to execute was going to be shellyc and I was convinced by MUSHSHAGANA that it was not a good idea to suggest an alternative execution, which, as it happens I didn't have. Although my scumread on shellyc waned later, I still thought it was not a good idea to make that public, for I had no alternative execution.

As for why I didn't hammer shellyc, I trusted MUSHSHAGANA to do it, as she said she would switch her vote over anytime but wanted to let others put their thoughts out.

What is YOUR thought on everyone’s scumread of you. At the moment the only thing I have on you is not voting and well that’s practically nothing.

Firstly, I believe only Redados, you and rocknil have expressed a scumread on me, though I may discover some other player were also scumreading me while rereading parts of the thread. In my opinion, Redados' and your scumread of me appears genuine as both of you appear to believe that my not voting was indicative that I am scum and rocknil's scumread of me also appears to be plausibly genuine.

Right now, I don't have any townreads or scumreads and believe that some townreads and scumreads that I gathered during the night phase and before were inaccurate.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

Why are you voting rocknil instead of me though and why do you think we are scum together? Do you really think I would choose to attack him, but have him completely ignore my presence?

VOTE: LavarManos

Why did you decide to switch to LavarManos after he/she questioned you?

[Fredrick A Campbell]

By don't care I mean I don't care if I have to vote Rocknil or Lavaar, not that I don't care about the outcome of the game! I do want to win and I am town and I think either one of these is the best move.

I didn't misinterpret what you said although it was ambiguous on looking back. I'm going to give myself 24 hours to look through parts of the thread. If I find anything, I will obviously announce it. If I don't, I will continue to look.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

By don't care I mean I don't care if I have to vote Rocknil or Lavaar, not that I don't care about the outcome of the game! I do want to win and I am town and I think either one of these is the best move.

I didn't misinterpret what you said although it was ambiguous on looking back. I'm going to give myself 24 hours to look through parts of the thread. If I find anything, I will obviously announce it. If I don't, I will continue to look.

By don't care I mean I don't care if I have to vote Rocknil or Lavaar, not that I don't care about the outcome of the game! I do want to win and I am town and I think either one of these is the best move.

I didn't misinterpret what you said although it was ambiguous on looking back. I'm going to give myself 24 hours to look through parts of the thread. If I find anything, I will obviously announce it. If I don't, I will continue to look.

Yeah that's fine unfortunately another less likely explanation is that Redados is scum which is why Mush died and one of Lavar/Rocknil is inno.

Just fyi I'm curious what you have to say about that.

While possible, I don't see anything other than what you just stated to support that theory.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

VOTE: Frogsterking

Congratulations. You have made me suspicious.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

@Frederick: what do you think about the Mush kill?

I think nothing of it.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

I thought and think that the behaviour is scummy, but probably not-alignment indicative.

How do you define "scummy" if not as "indicative of scum"?

To behave as though one is scum/aligned with the mafia.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

Frogsterking, why do you seem the most obsessed over what everyone thinks of the nightkill.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

When I first entered the game and thought she behaved the scummiest of all the players, I thought her thinking I had a scumread on her was because she simply failed to understand that I didn't necessarily think she was scum.

This is noncommittal AF.

English isn't your first language, correct?

Willing to give a pass for that.

Considering I learned English before I ever entered kindergarten, you could say it is.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels uncomfortable with the dynamics of Shelly, Redados and Italiano. Redados has, at least, modified his play after having been called out to something that could be considered more pro-town, but Shelly is hyper-focused on Redados and Italiano is hyper-focused on Shelly. This doesn't help anyone else make any decisions at all, and might very well end up with two mis-eliminations to satisfy the paranoia of these three so we can actually get down to business.

I have no intent of listing reads quite yet, but this is not good play for town from Shelly and Italiano. I think they should back up and focus attention on other people altogether for a while. Especially Italiano, who hasn't so much as sniffed in the direction of other players, as far as I can tell.

Now then...



Shelly, if town "tunnels" someone, scum don't need to say much to come across as town that's just late to the party. "Yeah, I'm honestly here on this wagon. I have nothing to add, everyone else has made my arguments for me. I think it's the right idea." Scum shouldn't be allowed to direct the conversation either, but if town gets stuck on "YES WE HAVE THE ANSWERS" scum doesn't need to do anything except not rock the boat too much.



Frogster, you have a dependent chain of events for "scum forcing interactions" being a good idea, whether you recognize the chain or not.
First, town has to town read most of town.
Second, town has to mostly not town read at least one scum.
Third, town has to be mostly coordinating rather than throwing suspicion at or questioning each other.
Only if all three things are true does scum have to try to steer the ship, so to speak. I'd like to point out that we can't get reads on enough of the players to fulfill the first chainlink yet, and we are ALL bickering too much for the third link to be fulfilled.

Letting scum force interaction at this stage is a TERRIBLE idea.

I'm really not a fan of how you're spinning my desire to be able to get reads on the majority of players. It's making something that's fairly pro-town into a vehicle for highly pro-scum play, and that is just not a good look at all on you, particularly with how town read I seem to be.

I've mentioned before: I tend to jump the gun, and I am aware of that tendency. So I'm just going to ask if anyone else feels like my words and intent might be getting twisted for hidden motives here. Because I have that feeling, I feel it in my bones, and I don't like it at all.

VOTE: Frogsterking

I always feel more comfortable having voted, and this feels like the right place to rest my vote for the time being.



I also want to bring up that MagikHorse has made himself one of my favorites with just the recently-passed flurry of posts. These are direct, cutting posts that aren't over-determined or stuck on irrelevancies. Good stuff for town, though I have yet to feel comfortable giving reads out.



And last for now, notes on why I'm avoiding giving a player overview or a reads list for so long.

Remember how I mentioned pattern-matching before?

I'm seeing patterns in all of the active users. Some I'm curious about, some I just plain don't like, all of them I want to avoid drawing too much attention to until I have reached a conclusion about the patterns I'm seeing.

If you've posted more than 6 times, I'm considering you in some way. I won't tell you how or for what until I'm good and ready, because that would give away the patterns and make it too easy to disrupt the picture I'm building. I'm going to sit on these and see what comes of my approach before I try giving reads. So you'll all have to wait a little while longer.

I think your dependency chain is an accurate example of the possible late game scenarios I'm visualizing in which town can still win in case there is little aid from prs. I would describe your dependency chain as a win condition following good early town play. I'd imagine you can see how a chain like that is unrealistic on D1 as you pointed out, but could materialize later in a 3-way or 5-way lylo situation as a result of a good D1.

I'm interested in hearing your conclusions about the player patterns and the reads list later and I agree they will be more impactful given some time. I believe this is another benefit of using the full 10 days.

I assure you there was no deliberate attempt to spin what you were saying and my motivation for paraphrasing was to express what I thought you were saying so you could confirm (or in this case deny) that there was a mutual understanding.

I suspect there is an issue with communication rather than underlying ideas about the game because I agree with most of the points you've been making. I suspect the issue is a linguistic one and we are based on different definitions of what letting scum force plays or interactions means. In my mind "forcing an interaction" or "forcing a play" is usually a bad move for the side doing it because it implies the play was unnatural or awkwardly timed (hence it had to be forced in) and will be generally less effective. A "forcing interaction" that is dominant and controls the choices the other side has available is not what I was suggesting we want to allow others to be doing.

The tunneling trio you pointed out is a solid example of what I'm referring to about forcing an interaction (not a forcing interaction.) If the scum team decides to play that way that's fine with me but if it's the town doing that then there will be problems not only today but in the endgame as well.

I believe that Redados, Shelly and Italiano will be receptive to moving forward and focusing on other players. I also believe that the incoming replacements are more likely to be an asset than a liability.

What did you mean by "The tunneling trio you pointed out is a solid example of what I'm referring to about forcing an interaction (not a forcing interaction.)"

[Fredrick A Campbell]

That actually lines up pretty well with what I have observed thus far.

UNVOTE:

[Fredrick A Campbell]

VOTE: Frogsterking

Now I remember why I was scumreading Frogsterking.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

Pretty certain Frog and Lavar aren't buddies.

I am still townreading Italiano and I still townread you, so I am thinking we can try to find the scumteam in the remaining pool of four players based on how they have interacted. I do not think rocknil is scum with Fredrick because there is no need to open up the day with a vote on his scumbuddy. I also do not like how rocknil chose to ignore my vote on him.

In Day 1, I pushed hard for shellyc. I thought there was something tangible there but I was wrong. I don't blame you for scumreading me. But you are wrong. I am now going over the thread to find the scum team. I have this feeling that I've missed something.

How did that go?

I can confirm this.

What are you confirming?

[Fredrick A Campbell]

If we don't get a replacement within 24 hours, I'm okay with limming Rock as-is.

VOTE: Frogsterking

Now I remember why I was scumreading Frogsterking.

To be specific, are you saying you think he is mafia?

Exactly.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

Frogsterking, why do you seem the most obsessed over what everyone thinks of the nightkill.

In the mafia format I have almost all of my experience in (livechat, roughly 5-20 minute days and 1-5 minute nights on average) I relied extensively on analyzing night kills to complement behavioral reads.

Part of the reason that method was useful to me was I understood how players of different levels approached their night choices in that format.

Things are different when players get a couple days to make their choice instead of a couple minutes and I'm not sure how much of what I know carries over to this format and I'm trying to learn quickly.

Actually, I just noticed that this answers the question "Why are you so interested in the nightkill?" and not the question I actually asked, which is "Why do you seem the most obsessed over what everyone thinks of the nightkill?"

So that you don't get to pretend to not understand what I am trying to say, let me put it bluntly. Please answer the question (Why are you so obsessed over what everyone thinks of the nightkill?)

[Fredrick A Campbell]

VOTE: Frogsterking

Now I remember why I was scumreading Frogsterking.

Care to elaborate?

Originally, I started to scumread Frogsterking for his obsession of what everyone thinks of the nightkill. Then, Casey made the following post.

Okay so look at these.

Welcome to the town Casey!

Welcome aboard, Casey.

Welcome to the game Casey.

Italiano and Rock welcome me to the game / aboard, but you specifically welcome me to the

town

.

The post added more fuel to my suspicions. I first questioned Frogsterking's obsession over what everyone thinks of the nightkill. Meanwhile, I reread some part of the thread and misinterpreted a post Frogsterking made. I prepared to make a post to question Frogsterking on the post and saved it as a draft. Frogsterking appeared to answer the question of why he was so obsessed over what everyone thinks of the nightkill, so I dismissed it. I then posted the draft. After Frogsterking clarified the meaning of the post I misinterpreted, I actually didn't understand the clarification. However, while I started to make another post to further point out what was the problem with the post, I noticed that no such problem actually existed. Instead of questioning on an issue that was now evident to me was non-existent, I unvoted instead since I had no further reason to scumread him. Several hours later, I look at my spreadsheet with the list of all my reads thus far and the post(s) from which I deduced them. I noticed I listed Frogsterking's post 640 as my reason for scumreading him. Actually, when I made the post you quoted, I still thought I only remembered scumreading Frogsterking for post 640 and the post I misinterpreted. It is only while looking into the question I remember asking Frogsterking something that I didn't remember that I remembered my true reason for scumreading Frogsterking.

In conclusion, my current scumread on Frogsterking is over his obsession of what everyone thinks of the nightkill, while my reason for scumreading Frogsterking when I made the post you quoted was for post 640 and my very first suspicions on Frogsterking was because of his obsession over the nightkill.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

Actually, on looking back, apparently I was initially scumreading Frogsterking for something which I didn't even post because I forgot about it before I posted it or recorded it in my spreadsheet.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

Thank you for doing that effort. How much value do you place on kill analysis?

@Italiano: I still wanna know who you think is maf.

I don’t solve for partners so if you want me to try to solve the game that way then you’re gonna be disappointed. I think scum is somewhere within rock, Lavar and you/MagikHorse. I’d be okay eliminating

As I’ve stated already, Redados, Frederick, and somewhat Frogsterking are in my no lynch pool

Since you townread Frogsterking, what do you have to say about my scumread on Frogsterking.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

The scumread isn't over your obsession of the night kill. It is over your obsession of what others think of the night kill.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

In post 759, Fredrick A Campbell wrote:

Spoiler:

VOTE: Frogsterking

Now I remember why I was scumreading Frogsterking.

Care to elaborate?

Originally, I started to scumread Frogsterking for his obsession of what everyone thinks of the nightkill. Then, Casey made the following post.

Okay so look at these.

Welcome to the town Casey!

Welcome aboard, Casey.

Welcome to the game Casey.

Italiano and Rock welcome me to the game / aboard, but you specifically welcome me to the

town

.

The post added more fuel to my suspicions. I first questioned Frogsterking's obsession over what everyone thinks of the nightkill. Meanwhile, I reread some part of the thread and misinterpreted a post Frogsterking made. I prepared to make a post to question Frogsterking on the post and saved it as a draft. Frogsterking appeared to answer the question of why he was so obsessed over what everyone thinks of the nightkill, so I dismissed it. I then posted the draft. After Frogsterking clarified the meaning of the post I misinterpreted, I actually didn't understand the clarification. However, while I started to make another post to further point out what was the problem with the post, I noticed that no such problem actually existed. Instead of questioning on an issue that was now evident to me was non-existent, I unvoted instead since I had no further reason to scumread him. Several hours later, I look at my spreadsheet with the list of all my reads thus far and the post(s) from which I deduced them. I noticed I listed Frogsterking's post 640 as my reason for scumreading him. Actually, when I made the post you quoted, I still thought I only remembered scumreading Frogsterking for post 640 and the post I misinterpreted. It is only while looking into the question I remember asking Frogsterking something that I didn't remember that I remembered my true reason for scumreading Frogsterking.

In conclusion, my current scumread on Frogsterking is over his obsession of what everyone thinks of the nightkill, while my reason for scumreading Frogsterking when I made the post you quoted was for post 640 and my very first suspicions on Frogsterking was because of his obsession over the nightkill.

In post 758, Fredrick A Campbell wrote:

Spoiler:

Frogsterking, why do you seem the most obsessed over what everyone thinks of the nightkill.

In the mafia format I have almost all of my experience in (livechat, roughly 5-20 minute days and 1-5 minute nights on average) I relied extensively on analyzing night kills to complement behavioral reads.

Part of the reason that method was useful to me was I understood how players of different levels approached their night choices in that format.

Things are different when players get a couple days to make their choice instead of a couple minutes and I'm not sure how much of what I know carries over to this format and I'm trying to learn quickly.

Actually, I just noticed that this answers the question "Why are you so interested in the nightkill?" and not the question I actually asked, which is "Why do you seem the most obsessed over what everyone thinks of the nightkill?"

So that you don't get to pretend to not understand what I am trying to say, let me put it bluntly. Please answer the question (Why are you so obsessed over what everyone thinks of the nightkill?)

I don't like the shade here where you assume that I intentionally misinterpreted your question, when you yourself just tripped over your own words and notes in the lengthy paragraph above trying to explain what exactly you're doing here. I'm not an expert on your thoughts so it's not necessary that I would pretend anything to misunderstand what you're saying. This inclusion in your case is unhelpful at best and scummy at worse.

The "obsession" angle looks like poor or made-up reasoning and is also unnecessary to the case. Analyzing the night kill is simply another means of finding the scum. You seem just as "obsessed" here as I do, you seem very over-reactive to the idea of analyzing the night kills, something that as a behavioral player I value more than the night kill analysis itself.

This is also my answer to your question, by the way: I did those things because analyzing the night kill and asking questions are both methods of scum hunting.

Your double-take going into this FoS looks strange as well. I'm tempted to give Casey town credit if Frederick flips scum either now or at a later date because it appears as though Frederick decided I would be his best push only after he read her most recent posts. I will elaborate on this in the next post.

The only way I can see Frederick being town here is if it's in his meta to FoS for night kill analysis as town or if it's a pre-emptive townie OMGUS because he feared I would push him after my long post #734 (which I was not planning.)

In case of the latter situation I could see an equal argument your play here is an example of a scummy OMGUS. At this point I would be the second townie you overreacted to in an OMGUS, the first being shelly, something which made me believe you might be an anti-town townie.

In case of the first situation of a TvT I'm imagining, where it's in your meta to FoS for night kills,

Frederick do you have any completed games on this site where you FoSed another player for night kill analysis and you were aligned with town?

I will unvote you if you can supply an example of this.

VOTE: Frederick

This also reminded me of something you said which is incongruent, Frederick:

In post 629, Fredrick A Campbell wrote:

Spoiler:

@Frederick: what do you think about the Mush kill?

I think nothing of it.

You mean you weren't pleased that the player who tunneled you all game was killed during the night? Not even a little bit? And you allegedly kept a spreadsheet of all of our tells yet you don't bother to make any notes whatsoever about the night kill? This looks like a lie to me. I think you wanted to kill the discussion on this topic because it was inconvenient to you.

This type of play on Frederick's part is exactly what I was referring to about letting the scum force plays in the part I bolded below. Frederick, your scumread looks like something you're trying to force into the game because night kill analysis ultimately is not a scum tell it's a method of scumhunting and the situation you're introducing it as a scum tell is convenient for you to avoid blame.

Spoiler:

I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels uncomfortable with the dynamics of Shelly, Redados and Italiano. Redados has, at least, modified his play after having been called out to something that could be considered more pro-town, but Shelly is hyper-focused on Redados and Italiano is hyper-focused on Shelly. This doesn't help anyone else make any decisions at all, and might very well end up with two mis-eliminations to satisfy the paranoia of these three so we can actually get down to business.

I have no intent of listing reads quite yet, but this is not good play for town from Shelly and Italiano. I think they should back up and focus attention on other people altogether for a while. Especially Italiano, who hasn't so much as sniffed in the direction of other players, as far as I can tell.

Now then...



Shelly, if town "tunnels" someone, scum don't need to say much to come across as town that's just late to the party. "Yeah, I'm honestly here on this wagon. I have nothing to add, everyone else has made my arguments for me. I think it's the right idea." Scum shouldn't be allowed to direct the conversation either, but if town gets stuck on "YES WE HAVE THE ANSWERS" scum doesn't need to do anything except not rock the boat too much.



Frogster, you have a dependent chain of events for "scum forcing interactions" being a good idea, whether you recognize the chain or not.
First, town has to town read most of town.
Second, town has to mostly not town read at least one scum.
Third, town has to be mostly coordinating rather than throwing suspicion at or questioning each other.
Only if all three things are true does scum have to try to steer the ship, so to speak. I'd like to point out that we can't get reads on enough of the players to fulfill the first chainlink yet, and we are ALL bickering too much for the third link to be fulfilled.

Letting scum force interaction at this stage is a TERRIBLE idea.

I'm really not a fan of how you're spinning my desire to be able to get reads on the majority of players. It's making something that's fairly pro-town into a vehicle for highly pro-scum play, and that is just not a good look at all on you, particularly with how town read I seem to be.

I've mentioned before: I tend to jump the gun, and I am aware of that tendency. So I'm just going to ask if anyone else feels like my words and intent might be getting twisted for hidden motives here. Because I have that feeling, I feel it in my bones, and I don't like it at all.

VOTE: Frogsterking

I always feel more comfortable having voted, and this feels like the right place to rest my vote for the time being.



I also want to bring up that MagikHorse has made himself one of my favorites with just the recently-passed flurry of posts. These are direct, cutting posts that aren't over-determined or stuck on irrelevancies. Good stuff for town, though I have yet to feel comfortable giving reads out.



And last for now, notes on why I'm avoiding giving a player overview or a reads list for so long.

Remember how I mentioned pattern-matching before?

I'm seeing patterns in all of the active users. Some I'm curious about, some I just plain don't like, all of them I want to avoid drawing too much attention to until I have reached a conclusion about the patterns I'm seeing.

If you've posted more than 6 times, I'm considering you in some way. I won't tell you how or for what until I'm good and ready, because that would give away the patterns and make it too easy to disrupt the picture I'm building. I'm going to sit on these and see what comes of my approach before I try giving reads. So you'll all have to wait a little while longer.

I think your dependency chain is an accurate example of the possible late game scenarios I'm visualizing in which town can still win in case there is little aid from prs. I would describe your dependency chain as a win condition following good early town play. I'd imagine you can see how a chain like that is unrealistic on D1 as you pointed out, but could materialize later in a 3-way or 5-way lylo situation as a result of a good D1.

I'm interested in hearing your conclusions about the player patterns and the reads list later and I agree they will be more impactful given some time. I believe this is another benefit of using the full 10 days.

I assure you there was no deliberate attempt to spin what you were saying and my motivation for paraphrasing was to express what I thought you were saying so you could confirm (or in this case deny) that there was a mutual understanding.

I suspect there is an issue with communication rather than underlying ideas about the game because I agree with most of the points you've been making. I suspect the issue is a linguistic one and we are based on different definitions of what letting scum force plays or interactions means. In my mind "forcing an interaction" or "forcing a play" is usually a bad move for the side doing it because it implies the play was unnatural or awkwardly timed (hence it had to be forced in) and will be generally less effective. A "forcing interaction" that is dominant and controls the choices the other side has available is not what I was suggesting we want to allow others to be doing.

The tunneling trio you pointed out is a solid example of what I'm referring to about forcing an interaction (not a forcing interaction.) If the scum team decides to play that way that's fine with me but if it's the town doing that then there will be problems not only today but in the endgame as well.

I believe that Redados, Shelly and Italiano will be receptive to moving forward and focusing on other players. I also believe that the incoming replacements are more likely to be an asset than a liability.

What did you mean by "The tunneling trio you pointed out is a solid example of what I'm referring to about forcing an interaction (not a forcing interaction.)"

(added spoiler so others don't have to scroll past the original quotes)

I meant that the trio of Redados, Italiano and shellyc came in with preconceived feelings about each other and were skewing the discussion toward their point of view.

I was contrasting the early actions of these three with some type of play where one or more players are able to dominate the game, force the other players to respond to them or limit the actions of the other players in some way. I didn't feel like this was what they were doing because I felt like I could read their discussion and then respond to it as I chose.

I remember at this point in time I thought (incorrectly) the conflict between Mush and I was that Mush interpreted my statements about letting mafia force plays and make mistakes as allowing other players to dominate the game, and I was attempting to clarify my point of view in ways I thought might make sense to her.

Firstly, I wasn't assuming that you were intentionally misinterpreting my question. Instead, I was warning you to not further misinterpret the question.

Secondly, the "obsession" angle you are referring to doesn't even seem to be the reason I am scumreading you for. It is a misrepresentation of a part of the case, and there is no need for me to argue for something that I am not arguing about.

Thirdly, the "This is also the answer to your question" again, does not answer the question.

"Your double-take going into this FoS looks strange as well. I'm tempted to give Casey town credit if Frederick flips scum either now or at a later date because it appears as though Frederick decided I would be his best push only after he read her most recent posts. I will elaborate on this in the next post. The only way I can see Frederick being town here is if it's in his meta to FoS for night kill analysis as town or if it's a pre-emptive townie OMGUS because he feared I would push him after my long post #734 (which I was not planning.) In case of the latter situation I could see an equal argument your play here is an example of a scummy OMGUS. At this point I would be the second townie you overreacted to in an OMGUS, the first being shelly, something which made me believe you might be an anti-town townie. In case of the first situation of a TvT I'm imagining, where it's in your meta to FoS for night kills, Frederick do you have any completed games on this site where you FoSed another player for night kill analysis and you were aligned with town?
I will unvote you if you can supply an example of this."

No. I have attempted to clarify that I am not scumreading you over analysing nightkills, but you have failed to understand. I will repeat myself for the umpteenth time and will continue to do so. I am scumreading you for being concerned about what other players think of the nightkill. Also, even if I could provide evidence that I have scumread someone for it, the fact that you are basing your argument on something that is not true means that your argument is invalid.

"This also reminded me of something you said which is incongruent, Frederick:

@Frederick: what do you think about the Mush kill?

I think nothing of it.

You mean you weren't pleased that the player who tunneled you all game was killed during the night? Not even a little bit? And you allegedly kept a spreadsheet of all of our tells yet you don't bother to make any notes whatsoever about the night kill? This looks like a lie to me. I think you wanted to kill the discussion on this topic because it was inconvenient to you."
I don't analyse night kills. I simply don't. You can search every game I have ever played and I have never scumread anyone over a nightkill. I always suspect others for what they have posted instead of a nightkill that they may or may not have committed.

"This type of play on Frederick's part is exactly what I was referring to about letting the scum force plays in the part I bolded below. Frederick, your scumread looks like something you're trying to force into the game because night kill analysis ultimately is not a scum tell it's a method of scumhunting and the situation you're introducing it as a scum tell is convenient for you to avoid blame."

You have unwittingly just pointed out the actual problem I had in the post I thought was non-existent. Why were you thinking that "the trio of Redados, Italiano and shellyc came in with preconceived feelings about each other and were skewing the discussion toward their point of view." was a forced interaction? Also, I suggest that you acknowledge that what you believe is going on in my head is not evidence of my alignment, just as I am fully aware that whatever I think is going on in your head is not evidence. It does warrant suspicion, however.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

The scumread isn't over your obsession of the night kill. It is over your obsession of what others think of the night kill.

Analyzing the night kill and asking questions are both valid ways of scumhunting. Asking everyone their opinion also does not qualify as an obsession. I used similar methods of scumhunting on D1 when I asked all of the players who their current choice in a daykill would be. Your case here is quite the stretch.

I'm not arguing that analysing the night kill and asking questions are not valid ways of scumhunting. I agree that asking everyone their opinion does not qualify as an obsession, so I will call it a concern from now on. Your asking of all the players who their current choice in a daykill would be does not seem related to asking all the players what they think of the nightkill.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

That actually lines up pretty well with what I have observed thus far.

UNVOTE:

That literally doesn't explain why you find me scummy?

The fact you're asking for an explanation instead of accusing me of being scummy (as though you're more worried that I cheated than if I really know if you're scum or not) is another tick in the scum direction from my point of view.

Not a fan of this.

By don't care I mean I don't care if I have to vote Rocknil or Lavaar, not that I don't care about the outcome of the game! I do want to win and I am town and I think either one of these is the best move.

My opinion of Frog is dropping each time he posts. This "I do want to win and I am town" phrasing is baffling.

VOTE: Frogsterking

Congratulations. You have made me suspicious.

Good vote.

I think Mush was killed to try and frame Frederick.

Has anyone even hypothesized this today?

I think Mush was killed to try and frame Frederick.

Has anyone even hypothesized this today?

Mush was out for Frederick's blood. If Frederick is on the scumteam they would probably need to kill Mush.

Oh look at that.

I'm feeling pretty confident that Redados, Italiano, and Lavar are town.

VOTE: Frogsterking

Now I remember why I was scumreading Frogsterking.

VOTE: Frogsterking

Now I remember why I was scumreading Frogsterking.

Care to elaborate?

Originally, I started to scumread Frogsterking for his obsession of what everyone thinks of the nightkill. Then, Casey made the following post.

Okay so look at these.

Welcome to the town Casey!

Welcome aboard, Casey.

Welcome to the game Casey.

Italiano and Rock welcome me to the game / aboard, but you specifically welcome me to the

town

.

The post added more fuel to my suspicions. I first questioned Frogsterking's obsession over what everyone thinks of the nightkill. Meanwhile, I reread some part of the thread and misinterpreted a post Frogsterking made. I prepared to make a post to question Frogsterking on the post and saved it as a draft. Frogsterking appeared to answer the question of why he was so obsessed over what everyone thinks of the nightkill, so I dismissed it. I then posted the draft. After Frogsterking clarified the meaning of the post I misinterpreted, I actually didn't understand the clarification. However, while I started to make another post to further point out what was the problem with the post, I noticed that no such problem actually existed. Instead of questioning on an issue that was now evident to me was non-existent, I unvoted instead since I had no further reason to scumread him. Several hours later, I look at my spreadsheet with the list of all my reads thus far and the post(s) from which I deduced them. I noticed I listed Frogsterking's post 640 as my reason for scumreading him. Actually, when I made the post you quoted, I still thought I only remembered scumreading Frogsterking for post 640 and the post I misinterpreted. It is only while looking into the question I remember asking Frogsterking something that I didn't remember that I remembered my true reason for scumreading Frogsterking.

In conclusion, my current scumread on Frogsterking is over his obsession of what everyone thinks of the nightkill, while my reason for scumreading Frogsterking when I made the post you quoted was for post 640 and my very first suspicions on Frogsterking was because of his obsession over the nightkill.

This sequence of events is extremely scummy. You clearly "remember" why you were scumreading Frogsterking after you see that Casey FoSes Frogsterking. It looks as if Casey decided she FoSed someone else you would have refrained from pushing on me at all. The paragraph attempting to explain this away is confusing and appears contrived.

I also find it extremely unlikely someone detail-oriented enough to keep a spreadsheet of their notes on every player would have nothing to say about the night kill.

As it happens, Casey's FoS on you was what triggered me to check why I even had you as a scumread in the first place.

By the way, I keep a spreadsheet because I understand limitations in my memory. I don't detail every little thing in my spreadsheet as that would be just as time-consuming for me to wade through as the whole thread. Also, I don't have notes on every player. I have notes on a select few posts that brought me closer to a conclusion on someone's alignment. Actually, it is even in the paragraph explaining my scumread on you.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

Why is this play erratic?

[Fredrick A Campbell]

The scumread isn't over your obsession of the night kill. It is over your obsession of what others think of the night kill.

So he shouldn’t ask what people think about what's going in the game? This is a weird statement.

The issue isn't that he asked. The issue is what I think his intention of asking was, which was to ascertain if it was necessary to nudge everyone towards the conclusion intended by him to be drawn from the nightkill.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

Wow there is a lot to dig in here.

By the way, this is exactly how I felt after you made those series of long posts. I just dissected everything bit by bit, post by post.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

I have a theory that you are good at picking up on tells in others behaviors, and that you scum read people who seem anxious and guarded, is this true?

Since this was addressed to Casey, who is only scumreading you, this post seems to suggest that you are anxious and guarded. Also, if you are not scum, why do you consider Casey good at picking up on tells in other's behaviors. Shouldn't it be the opposite?

[Fredrick A Campbell]

@Mod, will there be an extension for Rocknil's replacement to catch up?

I'll pause the deadline at 24 hours and resume when our game is full and active.

Prodding LavarManos.

Phew.

We have a little over 24 hours left, so I think it's time to get our limpools together. I would prefer to lim Fredrick A Campbell or Rocknil today. Where is everyone else at?

I believe it's critically important to hammer Frederick today because his plan is to bandwagon me off of Casey's vote who is town. I outlined my theory of this in 813.

If my theory is correct then Frederick believed now was the best time to force a play. He would only need to persuade one more townie to join the bandwagon after Casey's vote; Italiano who scum reads neither Frederick nor I or Lavar who I accused of being scum earlier today. Pretty solid odds for a scum in this setup.

I'm especially weary of Frederick's timing around the mod's announcement of a replacement of Rocknil and you and I's brief discussion of the pros and cons of a policy lynch.

If a) Rocknil is scum who voted Frederick at the beginning of the day with Frederick's guidance, creating distance and giving Rocknil the option of bussing or changing his vote later, now is an opportunity for the replacement to appear, "unvote while he rereads", and then hop on my bandwagon "for x reason."

If b) Even worse Rocknil is town, then policy lynching Rocknil will enable Frederick a cross with me on lylo day where he and his partner can vote me and only one townie is needed to be persuaded to vote me to win the game (which he believes could be Casey.)

I have two more things to add in follow up posts.

I don't see such a thing in post 813.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

I don't understand the case and am not colorblind.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

I'm on sodium valporate. 500 mg a day as prescribed by my psychiatrist.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

The deadline is paused anyway, so there is no hurry.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

I have a theory that you are good at picking up on tells in others behaviors, and that you scum read people who seem anxious and guarded, is this true?

Since this was addressed to Casey, who is only scumreading you, this post seems to suggest that you are anxious and guarded. Also, if you are not scum, why do you consider Casey good at picking up on tells in other's behaviors. Shouldn't it be the opposite?

I have a theory that you are good at picking up on tells in others behaviors, and that you scum read people who seem anxious and guarded, is this true?

Since this was addressed to Casey, who is only scumreading you,

#1

this post seems to suggest that you are anxious and guarded.

#2

Also, if you are not scum, why do you consider Casey good at picking up on tells in other's behaviors.

#3

Shouldn't it be the opposite?

Warning: essay approaching!!

#1

Correct. On the five-factor personality trait continuum (acronym O.C.E.A.N: Openness, Conscientiousness, Extraversion, Agreeableness, Neuroticism) I score very high on disagreeableness (or very low on agreeableness), a subtrait of which is how likely you are to be guarded and suspicious toward others, very high on introversion (low on extraversion), and very high on neuroticism (sensitivity to anxiety), which were the main categories I was thinking about here.

I believe Casey, shelly and I are all similar in a specific combination in that we are about midrange conscientiousness (Casey's correction of medias vs medium for one example), very high in disagreeableness because we are competitive, and very high in openness which is why we all self-identified as behavioral players, prefer lifestyles related to the arts, value things that are aesthetic or creative etc. and I did not believe that aspect was at play in her scumread here (except in a helpful way in that Casey initially enjoyed my posts minus the statistical parts) so I thought there might be some conflict brewing regarding guardedness and anxiety. I also wonder if people who are disagreeable and introverted express it differently than people who are disagreeable and extraverted, due to a sub trait of extraversion called assertiveness, which I will be focusing on in response to #3.

#2

Not necessarily because being able to describe other's behavior and accurately identify deception are different things. I'm inclined to believe that humans aren't really able to identify deceptive behavior as much as they're able to recognize when the liar has made a mistake, or failing that when some kinds of behavior may be easier to conceal a lie, such as in this case a personality that appears anxious, introverted and guarded.

One example of why I believe she might be good at picking up on other's behaviors is that she very quickly said things like "N-E-E-E-R-D" if I recall correctly, and though I do not self-identify as a nerd, if she was referring to the concept of a personality that was anxious, introverted, and competitive+guarded, then she is accurate not only on a qualitative scale but on a quantifiable one as well (the five-factor model) and she didn't need to read much of my writing to determine that. This also is congruent with how she seems to view the world and other things she said like "the ones who aren't the cool kids get voted out", also to paraphrase.

My theory is that as she read more of my writing she was able to pick up on more subtle aspects of my personality which is what she began scum reading me for.

A more critical example is when she scum read me for the push on Lavar. I believe she was correctly assessing that I was motivated by anxiety on some level though not fully aware of it, and town read his assertiveness and posting lots of reads. I believe she also townread Redados for being assertive at some points in D1, and this trend is important for how I'm about to continue:

I think she thought that I viewed her as town because of the welcome post, and because I didn't assert that I town read her, she suspected I might have been attempting to conceal that I knew she was town because I'm mafia, when instead she was accurately identifying two behavioral tells I wasn't fully aware of (guardedness and my view on the MagikHorse/Casey slot) which was accurate on her part, however the conclusion of deceptive behavior was not. Another example of when she was bothered by my guardedness early on was in my response to Redados on D1, when I said "Hmm", which she viewed as killing the conversation and holding something back. Of course since Casey is also disagreeable, most of these behavioral tells she picks up on she is inclined to be suspicious of, especially ones that are most unlike herself.

This seems to me what Casey is screening for here in a nutshell, the anxiety and guardedness in other players, as she does not come off as dumb, fabricating her reads, or inexperienced, so I'm not inclined to write her views off quite yet even though I know she is wrong about my alignment. Though she says she relies on her gut I believe there is something specific motivating her actions as she also does not come off as wishy washy, which is why I narrowed it down to guardedness and anxiety that she's picking up on.

#3

Like I said I think that Casey is high on disagreeableness, or has a tendency to be competitive, and I think because of her posting style and how she describes herself she is more extraverted and less sensitive to anxiety, at least compared to myself and possibly some other players in this game, so when she picks up on these tells she is inclined to be suspicious of them especially because they are unlike herself, some people act this way when they lie, and she is inclined to be suspicious in general because she is disagreeable. For yet another example on this behavior, she initially didn't like the Larvar slot on D1 when he did not jump in very much as the replacement, but viewed him more favorably when he started speaking up on D2.

Like I mentioned toward the end of #1, another key difference of extraversion that may cause disagreebleness to reflect differently is the subtrait of extraversion called assertiveness. Casey seems to value assertiveness highly, and being very low in extraversion myself I tend to behave much less assertively IRL and online.

This trait doesn't always stop me from speaking out, because the disagreeableness makes me competitive and the neuroticism makes me defensive, and the openness makes me desire to be creative. I suspect that Casey is accurately identifying my behavior as being in turns quiet, creative, aggressive or defensive, and when I do speak out it comes from a desire to win rather than a genuine desire to assert myself, so while she initially appreciated the creativity she became suspicious of my play as it seemed anxious, guarded and aggressive (though she is also aggressive but in a less guarded way) and from her point of view not very genuine as she values and is motivated by assertiveness, not just winning.

It makes sense to me that she could accurately identify my behavior, while still incorrectly concluding me as scum, if she is observing guardedness, anxiety, desire to win combined with lack of assertiveness, as some people act this way when they lie and it is different from her own behavior and she is presumably town. I believe that after interacting with me for a longer period of time she would realize that these traits in my case are not indicative of deception, as my behavior is like this when I'm telling the truth as well, since it's part of my personality.

It also makes sense you would choose Casey to push with Frederick once you saw how she is reading the game, as being extraverted and disagreeable, it's less likely she has the introspection to realize you're using her because she is extraverted and is more prone to disagree with me if I try to change her mind because she is disagreeable (no offense Casey.)

Why is this play erratic?

Umm if you're seriously town then it would be more difficult to find an example of how your play was not erratic. If you're town then whatever drugs you were on when you wrote that stuff outlined in 813 I want some.

If you're scum the play makes a lot of sense though. I believe you will flip scum here.

Actually, on thinking about it further, Casey didn't just rely on gut, did she? She only used it initially, but proceeded to make posts regarding some things she is finding suspicious about your playstyle.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

In conclusion, my current scumread on Frogsterking is over his obsession of what everyone thinks of the nightkill, while my reason for scumreading Frogsterking when I made the post you quoted was for post 640 and my very first suspicions on Frogsterking was because of his obsession over the nightkill.

I'll agree in the very least that the things Frog has said outside of analyses and theory don't sit well with me.

I don’t get 640. So because he said welcome to “town” instead of game, that’s suspicious? And what has he done?

There are several other things that have made me suspicious. I am detailing them in a post I am writing.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

I currently believe Frogsterking may have night killed MUSHSHAGANA with the attempt to drop suspicion on ItalianoVD and me. He believed that everyone will dabble in night kill analysis and, when no one did, he had to do it himself. Some posts Frogsterking has made that support my hypothesis are post 615 and post 732.

Another reason I am scumreading Frogsterking is for his numerous perspective slips that he has attempted to explain away every single time. There is one in post 732 ("I believe I overestimated her end of day suspicion against me as well which is causing me to rethink my interpretation of events." Why is he overestimating MUSHSHAGANA's end of day suspicion against him if he is town? Shouldn't he be underestimating it. This was so subtle I actually read it underestimating the first time I read the post.), post 799 (details in post 823) and post 640 (I may be putting a tad-bit much weight in this one as a similar statement was made by one of the mafia members in this post.). I think that is all of it, but I may find some more.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

Actually, on looking further back the part about Frogsterking killing MUSHSHAGANA to frame me makes less sense to me now because Frogsterking didn't even start the day attempting to get rid of me, stating instead that he didn't think I would have killed MUSHSHAGANA in post 593. Another duo was hypothesized instead. However, I still think the perspective slips are there and not imaginary unless Frogsterking could give an explanation for my observation in post 732.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

Well that wasn’t surprising, I figured it’d be me or Redados to get killed. Rocknil is a little surprising.

I’ve done my reading though. I’ve actually read 759 many times over and it’s still confusing to follow.

@Frederick: So are you saying you initially scumread Frogster for his obsession over what people thought of the nightkill and then 640 solidified your scumread or vice versa?

Actually, while that was what I was saying, I misremembered. I actually scumread Frogsterking for not seeming to attempt to solve the game, then 640 made me more suspicious. The rest of what I recounted was more recent and so I doubt I misremembered anything else.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

Lavar did you consider not outting that Redados visited you N1.

#1

Why would I do that? I did allude to it in my first post of the day 2 here.

I feel honored

#2

What do you mean by the Tracker follows the one who hammers the night action? yes, I do need to reconsider my townread on Italiano since it is LYLO.

#1

To avoid suspicion. Redados died the next night.

#2

I was trying to allude to my role in a way that didn't get me killed. The tracker only gets a "guilty" if that player was the one to do the kill or night action. In the format I'm used to playing you'd call that player's choice the hammer, because it's selected like a vote, and will cause the night to end if they were the last one to make their choice, like a hammer.

I'm not sure if selecting a night action here is also called a hammer because it's not selected through votes, but whatever.

It is not called a hammer here, but is called "performing a night action" instead.

Anyway, why did you reveal who you targeted so soon? I could see some benefit if you kept who you targeted a secret.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

Actually, on looking further back the part about Frogsterking killing MUSHSHAGANA to frame me makes less sense to me now because Frogsterking didn't even start the day attempting to get rid of me, stating instead that he didn't think I would have killed MUSHSHAGANA in post 593. Another duo was hypothesized instead. However, I still think the perspective slips are there and not imaginary unless Frogsterking could give an explanation for my observation in post 732.

Yes..

If you are town I would heavily encourage you to reconsider the things you said because I don't believe they make any sense.

What was the perspective slip in 732?

I currently believe Frogsterking may have night killed MUSHSHAGANA with the attempt to drop suspicion on ItalianoVD and me. He believed that everyone will dabble in night kill analysis and, when no one did, he had to do it himself. Some posts Frogsterking has made that support my hypothesis are post 615 and post 732.

Another reason I am scumreading Frogsterking is for his numerous perspective slips that he has attempted to explain away every single time. There is one in post 732 ("I believe I overestimated her end of day suspicion against me as well which is causing me to rethink my interpretation of events." Why is he overestimating MUSHSHAGANA's end of day suspicion against him if he is town? Shouldn't he be underestimating it. This was so subtle I actually read it underestimating the first time I read the post.), post 799 (details in post 823) and post 640 (I may be putting a tad-bit much weight in this one as a similar statement was made by one of the mafia members in this post.). I think that is all of it, but I may find some more.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

Fred are you going to continue to question the unCC'd power role or are you going to do something useful?

Do something useful. Even that was an attempt to do something useful that turned out to be useless.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

Also in hindsight I noticed that I got pushed a lot for perspective slips on D2 and I wonder if it's due to how I write and whether it was exacerbated by my drinking.

I think it was just me who pushed you for that.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

Right now, I think the scumteam is either Casey and LavarManos or ItalianoVD and LavarManos. I am considering executing LavarManos today.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

Right now, I think the scumteam is either Casey and LavarManos or ItalianoVD and LavarManos. I am considering executing LavarManos today.

Okay, and why have you ruled out the possibility of Casey and Italiano?

Actually, I don't think I have. I actually just suspect LavarManos more than the others.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

Anyone have any last contributions? 12 hours and some change left, a hammer vote is coming sooner or later at this point, and one of us won't be here for Day 2. Get your last impulses and reads and ideas out, tell us Day 2 plans, etc.

IMO this Italiano / Magik interaction for calling Italiano out seems off to me. (This is just a gut feeling)

I also have an opinion on the interaction.

I also have an opinion on the interaction.

Oh are you going to state it or what?

Actually, I think it should be fine for me to state it. I think the interaction is unlikely to be scum acting. Should it be true that it wasn't scum acting, at least one of them is town.

Right now, I think the scumteam is either Casey and LavarManos or ItalianoVD and LavarManos. I am considering executing LavarManos today.

Because of this????

Wow, apparently that was exactly how I came to the conclusion subconsciously.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

But I also have a suspicion on LavarManos in addition to that.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

But I also have a suspicion on LavarManos in addition to that.

Okay, and what is it?

The initial reason I remember is for potentially lining up executions in post 688. A more general trend that I have noticed is that they (LavarManos) just says the bare minimum.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

I think the scumteam is ItalianoVD and LavarManos.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

Do the mafia have day chat?

Newbie games have had day chat since they last changed the setup I think.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

I’ve read the past few pages and I think at this point we should all list our scumteam.

Frederick already stated his and I don’t blame him for thinking that even though it’s only halfway true.

My scumteam is Lavar and Casey, however, I’ve been wrong on both days so far (shelly / rocknil) so I’m not real confident about placing a vote down unplanned or without logic. I would like to hear from Frogster.

At that point I will make my decision and if the consensus ends up being me, there’s nothing I can do, but it’d be game over at that point.

"Frederick already stated his and I don’t blame him for thinking that even though it’s only halfway true."

How would you know that it is only halfway true?

[Fredrick A Campbell]

Awake again!

Fred are you going to continue to question the unCC'd power role or are you going to do something useful?

Are you?

No. Is there some reason I should be?

Just pointing out how you are pushing Frederick to do something you are not doing yourself.

I’ve read the past few pages and I think at this point we should all list our scumteam.

Frederick already stated his and I don’t blame him for thinking that even though it’s only halfway true.

My scumteam is Lavar and Casey, however, I’ve been wrong on both days so far (shelly / rocknil) so I’m not real confident about placing a vote down unplanned or without logic. I would like to hear from Frogster.

At that point I will make my decision and if the consensus ends up being me, there’s nothing I can do, but it’d be game over at that point.

"Frederick already stated his and I don’t blame him for thinking that even though it’s only halfway true."

How would you know that it is only halfway true?

Ahh I see how that reads weird. So if I’m town and I scumread Lavar then a potential scumteam of he and I would not be right on my part and only true on his part. I worded it odd, but that was my sentiment.

I’ve read the past few pages and I think at this point we should all list our scumteam.

Frederick already stated his and I don’t blame him for thinking that even though it’s only halfway true.

My scumteam is Lavar and Casey, however, I’ve been wrong on both days so far (shelly / rocknil) so I’m not real confident about placing a vote down unplanned or without logic. I would like to hear from Frogster.

At that point I will make my decision and if the consensus ends up being me, there’s nothing I can do, but it’d be game over at that point.

What about Frederick?

Well yeah, Frederick already listed his scumteam.

I have no read on Italiano but at this point I think I might cross my fingers and just hope he's town the same way I hope you are town.

I've also noticed that Redados N2 target hasn't come forward yet. From this comment I assume it's Italiano.

Nope, not me.

"Ahh I see how that reads weird. So if I’m town and I scumread Lavar then a potential scumteam of he and I would not be right on my part and only true on his part. I worded it odd, but that was my sentiment."

Fredrick's comprehension.exe has stopped responding...

I don't understand what you mean.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

If that was what you meant, why did you phrase it "if I'm town" though?

[Fredrick A Campbell]

In post 951, ItalianoVD wrote the following:

"Frederick already stated his and I don’t blame him for thinking that even though it’s only halfway true."

How would you know if LavarManos was scum though?

[Fredrick A Campbell]

Italiano can you explain your blatant defense of Fred in #864?

Fred can you explain why your posts to Italiano in #863 look like they're trying to push Italiano off your back?

Lavar can you do something please? We have 3 days left and we really need you to focus.

Maybe you have to explain why you think so as I was not trying to do so when I made those posts. Instead, I just answered ItalianoVD's questions.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

Italiano can you explain your blatant defense of Fred in #864?

Fred can you explain why your posts to Italiano in #863 look like they're trying to push Italiano off your back?

Lavar can you do something please? We have 3 days left and we really need you to focus.

Maybe you have to explain why you think so as I was not trying to do so when I made those posts. Instead, I just answered ItalianoVD's questions.

Yes but why is that

all

you did? No follow-ups, no addressing, no questioning his actions.

Because I did not see any necessity in doing so.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

Fred & Italiano how do you reconcile the quote above being from maf?? Coached by his partner to active lurk and say self-incriminating things??

He was potentially not coached when he posted that.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

So my real reports were that Fred visited no one N1 and Italiano visited Redados N2

I was coming round to townreading ItalianoVD again, actually.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

My present opinion is that LavarManos is ItalianoVD's partner.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

What do you think about Casey now, LavarManos?

[Fredrick A Campbell]

It will be obvious to the tracker according to this wiki page.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

What is a BW?

[Fredrick A Campbell]

"The Mafia Roleblocker or Rolecop are allowed to both submit the nightkill and perform his Roleblocker or Rolecop action." excerpt from the same wiki page.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

So my real reports were that Fred visited no one N1 and Italiano visited Redados N2

I was coming round to townreading ItalianoVD again, actually.

Normally, I would think scum doesn't say stuff like this regarding their partner and would be more eager to bus. However, Fred strikes me as a somewhat unconventional player. Any scumgames I can skim over?

I believe I have never been scum on this account.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

So, what do you think about Casey, LavarManos?

[Fredrick A Campbell]

Casey as scum does not make sense given how much she questioned the scumread on you.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

Seems more like she was trying to be sure that we have considered the potential evidence against the case that you are scum.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

I have not really noticed Casey doing so, though.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

If we are assuming that the scumteam had always used both their night actions, ItalianoVD is definitely a goon.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

So my real reports were that Fred visited no one N1 and Italiano visited Redados N2

Neat.

Both MagikHorse and Casey voted Italiano as a single-person BW and interacted with him and nothing ever came of it before joining mainstream BWs.

First guesses always best guesses.

I guess he's probably clear anyway because it's better for one scum to do the kill and the other to investigate so when the tracker outs them they can claim they're the other pr.

You're coming at this in a way suggesting that mafia played in some perfect or robotic way. I wouldn't rule that out. They'd have to know what row and column they're in ahead of time and with my stellar powers of logic I don't see how that's possible.

So my real reports were that Fred visited no one N1 and Italiano visited Redados N2

I was coming round to townreading ItalianoVD again, actually.

Normally, I would think scum doesn't say stuff like this regarding their partner and would be more eager to bus. However, Fred strikes me as a somewhat unconventional player. Any scumgames I can skim over?

Is... is this... effort?

I was planning to vote Casey tonight but I guess I will choose to sleep off the remaining alcohol instead. For what it's worth I thought both of your reactions to the real reports were townie enough.

Why would you not vote the obvious maf? That's what the university you linked says to do.

I believe we will. But I also believe it is wise to use the remaining time to find the potential scum partner.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

So, Casey, what do you think of LavarManos?

[Fredrick A Campbell]

Also, with these new results, who do you think is the scum team now?

[Fredrick A Campbell]

VOTE: Lavar

We should execute ItalianoVD first. That way, we have more time to consider who the second member is.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

Anyway what I was

starting

to say is that @Fred, you never responded to #993. But coming fresh before the wake of Frog's reveal in #996, I can see how that rendered my points moot to you.

Ok. Let's have a look then.

Spoiler: post 993

Italiano can you explain your blatant defense of Fred in #864?

Fred can you explain why your posts to Italiano in #863 look like they're trying to push Italiano off your back?

Lavar can you do something please? We have 3 days left and we really need you to focus.

Maybe you have to explain why you think so as I was not trying to do so when I made those posts. Instead, I just answered ItalianoVD's questions.

Yes but why is that

all

you did? No follow-ups, no addressing, no questioning his actions.

Because I did not see any necessity in doing so.

Not even now?

Fred & Italiano how do you reconcile the quote above being from maf?? Coached by his partner to active lurk and say self-incriminating things??

He was potentially not coached when he posted that.

That was the worst non-answer I've heard all game.

Awake again!

Fred are you going to continue to question the unCC'd power role or are you going to do something useful?

Are you?

No. Is there some reason I should be?

Just pointing out how you are pushing Frederick to do something you are not doing yourself.

I am literally not doing that.

You asked him if he’s going to do something useful. I asked you if you going to do something useful. I wasn’t saying are you going to stop questioning the power role.

I just looked back at my ISO and yeah I have zero clue what you're talking about.

I wasn’t talking overall, I was only talking about today.

Are you still under the opinion that I'm being "useless"?

Italiano can you explain your blatant defense of Fred in #864?

Fred can you explain why your posts to Italiano in #863 look like they're trying to push Italiano off your back?

Lavar can you do something please? We have 3 days left and we really need you to focus.

Yeah, I thought he was town and I didn’t see why he was being universally scumread, so I was really trying to understand what others were seeing because I didn’t see it. If I townread someone I will try to protect them as best I can.

You said he was a "light townread."

Fred & Italiano how do you reconcile the quote above being from maf?? Coached by his partner to active lurk and say self-incriminating things??

By quote above I mean #976.

What are you asking? If Lavar was coached to say what he said? That doesn’t make sense.

Explain how that quote comes from a maf.

"Not even now?" (Please check the spoiler for context.)

Well, I don't. I believe the reason is extremely self-evident at this point so, I would only elaborate upon request.

"That was the worst non-answer I've heard all game."

I don't even understand why that is a non-answer, let alone the worst you have heard all game.

Alright, your turn to answer the following questions.

So, Casey, what do you think of LavarManos?

Also, with these new results, who do you think is the scum team now?

[Fredrick A Campbell]

You do know what you just did was extremely risky, right?

[Fredrick A Campbell]

VOTE: Lavar

I would really hate it if you lose us the game this time.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

VOTE: Italiano
I believe Casey to be the last scum, but voting Italiano is the right move given the time of day left. In addition, Italiano flipping goon should semi-clear Fred.
Vote for fast night thanks.

Why do you want a fast night, LavarManos?

[Fredrick A Campbell]

UNVOTE: Lavar

I think that I'll feel some guilt if I don't attempt to post the results of my VCA.

Spoiler:

So my real reports were that Fred visited no one N1 and Italiano visited Redados N2

Neat.

Both MagikHorse and Casey voted Italiano as a single-person BW and interacted with him and nothing ever came of it before joining mainstream BWs.

First guesses always best guesses.

I guess he's probably clear anyway because it's better for one scum to do the kill and the other to investigate so when the tracker outs them they can claim they're the other pr.

You're coming at this in a way suggesting that mafia played in some perfect or robotic way. I wouldn't rule that out. They'd have to know what row and column they're in ahead of time and with my stellar powers of logic I don't see how that's possible.

So my real reports were that Fred visited no one N1 and Italiano visited Redados N2

I was coming round to townreading ItalianoVD again, actually.

Normally, I would think scum doesn't say stuff like this regarding their partner and would be more eager to bus. However, Fred strikes me as a somewhat unconventional player. Any scumgames I can skim over?

Is... is this... effort?

I was planning to vote Casey tonight but I guess I will choose to sleep off the remaining alcohol instead. For what it's worth I thought both of your reactions to the real reports were townie enough.

Why would you not vote the obvious maf? That's what the university you linked says to do.

I'm not sure what gave you the idea I lean toward being a follower.

VOTE: Casey

We have 27 hours left to discuss BTW.

Spoiler:

Also @Fred: #1070 is my answer to you. Before today you were like 80% town and now you're 99%.

You're welcome.

@Frederick:

Do you have any thoughts on the commonalities between Lavar and Italiano I posed in 1058?

No.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

I don't see how one can conclude one from the other.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

I will place the hammer in 6 hours. Everyone is welcome to place their last words in case they get night killed.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

Frogsterking, after you are done posting all of these, please remember to place the hammer. I am going to sleep.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

I have arrived at a verdict.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

I have arrived at a verdict.

Can you take me through your thought process?

It's a mess. I didn't bother to try to take notes this time, but I can remember what I did. You sure you still want me to go through it?

[Fredrick A Campbell]

So, I think Casey is town from MagikHorse's interactions with ItalianoVD in which MagikHorse questions ItalianoVD's scumread on shellyc.

I think you are scum for reasons I have forgotten. However, the post previous to this in which you are only interested in my thought process if I think you are scum is another reason for me to think you are scum.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

Oh, another reason that I just remembered is how little you posted in the previous day phase as though you had no ideas to share.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

Oh, another reason that I just remembered is how little you posted in the previous day phase as though you had no ideas to share.

Just how lengthy it was.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

EBWOP:

Consider it from my perspective, I think you are town which means that Casey is scum. This means I win if we eliminate Casey today. If you think she is scum, great. I don't have to do anything. However, if you think I am scum, then I will have to talk you out of that.
That is why town Lavar would say that.
Why do you think MagikHorse wasn't distancing from Italiano? Was there anything in the quotes that you found difficult for two scum to fake?

Just how lengthy it was.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

You do realize how difficult it would be for them to fake it for so long, right?

[Fredrick A Campbell]

Something I was thinking about. This is for MUSHSHAGANA and MagikHorse. Why are guys not questioning my townread on Redados? Redados is in the exact same category as shelly. It was his first game onsite and my first time playing with him. I’m using the exact same logic to read Redados that I am for shelly. If the premise of your argument is not to look at meta or to look at both the similarities and differences to come to my conclusion, then why not question my townread, why only the scumread? This is why I don’t necessarily like the push. I feel that if shelly is scum than one of you may be her partner.

This post makes very little sense if Casey is in a team with ItalianoVD.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

I'm swinging around to it being Casey now.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

I was just messing around. Let's end this.

VOTE: LavarManos

[Fredrick A Campbell]

Too bad then. The ItalianoVD's interaction with MagikHorse still look genuine to me.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

You had me fooled.