Newbie 2025 | Lilies | Game Over

[ItalianoVD]

Oh okay.

Gotta get you back for last game.

VOTE: shellyc

[ItalianoVD]

This is where we all point fingers at each other until someone does something that other people can latch on to, yes?

VOTE: Frogsterking

I have reasons, and I will even explain them! On request, I can explain them in any of these unique styles:

Mad scientist
Divine prophesy <-- Today's special!
Very upset historian
Philosopher (esoteric) <-- A personal favorite!
Conspiracy theorist
Normal person

But I'm probably going to default to normal person. Less confusing that way.

I was gonna go with conspiracy theorist. That’s always fun. But if you wanna be normal, I guess you can.

[ItalianoVD]

Only other player I know is Redados. How’s it going my dude?

[ItalianoVD]

Lol. Moving gifs are better and you know it.

[ItalianoVD]

Lol. Moving gifs are better and you know it.

ItalianoVD, if you happen to read this after the game, please change your avatar to be stationary lol

Oh yeah. I remember that. If it really bothers you that much I will change it.

Only other player I know is Redados. How’s it going my dude?

I'm feeling pretty good and looking forward to playing again! I have a question for you: are you Italian?

That’s cool, same here. And nope. It’s the same name I use in WeBL. I’m actually a colored fella. Can I say that? Do I have to say “African American”?

[ItalianoVD]

Oh no. Shelly doing it again.

The only problem about this exchange is that this is not General Discussion Forum.

The problem is, why is this thread the General Discussion Forum all of a sudden after I was asleep?

@MUSHSHAGANA I can’t say you are thinking too deep. Last game I played with Redados I pushed him for listing a readslist on page 2, so I‘m probably not the best one to ask about reaching. Personally I’d like to think he is townie again, but not sure how he would play as scum. Aren’t we still in RVS? You have some time to determine if he looks townie or scummy.

[ItalianoVD]

Sorry peeps. Weekends are pretty tough for me as I like to spend the weekend with family; hiking, camping, fishing, kayaking, etc. so most of the time I’m out the house or I’m in a poor data area. I just wanted to quickly put down my thoughts before I’m gone for most of the day.

So far what stands out to me:

Frogsterking said he’d be back after he washed the dishes. He hasn’t returned yet so he must have either had a whole lotta dishes or his girlfriend said he can’t play with his friends, for not doing those dishes. Can’t wait for him to return and tell us what happened.

MUSHSHAGANA is someone I like. So far her posting and overall vibe seems good to me. Her push onto Redados seems genuine and I can’t really question it, but after playing with Redados he did play this loose as town. I can admit however that the LAMIST and OMGUS stuff was careless, but I could actually see town!Redados play this way. Shelly knows this. Unfortunately I don’t know how he would play as scum so take that as you will.

Shelly is back to her repeat posting from last game when she was scum. And by repeat posting I mean she says exactly what the other player says, almost word for word. As I pointed out.

Redados has put himself in a pretty tough position with his play so far. For now I’m gonna semi-town read him because while I wouldn’t put it past scum!Redados to play this way, I’m not sure how likely it is.

That’s it so far. I’m okay with leaving my vote on shelly at the moment. As I said I’ll be gone. Any questions asked I’ll answer when I can. Peace.

[ItalianoVD]

@MagikHorse Redados answered it perfectly in 73. Call it paranoid or whatever but I definitely do not feel comfortable disregarding Shellyc. I will be suspicious of her unless she flips town

Lol @Frogsterking as long as she’s happy I guess. And you are correct I do have a career in sales. I am also a psychology major so there’s that. Are you sure you haven’t had a bit of psychology or sociology in your history. Your assessment is pretty spot on.

I am logical and analytical. While some may see this as a good thing, it has bitten me in the butt more than I’d like it and it’s probably because of my biggest flaw, which is overthinking.

On using the full allotted time for the day 1 lynch, after playing 3 games I’ve come to the conclusion I don’t really like Day 1. I get the premise and it makes sense, but after everything is said and questions are asked it does get boring and dull. I’m not against it and I will participate, but don’t be alarmed if I eventually get annoyed and just want the day to end.

[ItalianoVD]

Yes, I was scum that game. However I have rolled town in this game, and I have actually made an effort to not rephrase / repeat what others have said.

I started off by asking a few questions to generate info during RVS (Why Frogster didn't vote during RVS, why discussion became general)
I then pushed Redados and called him scummy twice. I was also being aggressive towards Redados. I also made reads on several players.

Call it anxiety or paranoia, but I’m not gonna feel comfortable with you until you are flipped and we know what your true alignment is.

I haven't been repeat posting. They thought Mush's push was geninue, but questions my push? This is contradictory. Still, I don't know how much of that is AI.

I didn’t question your push. I’m not even really uneasy about you because of your push. It’s really because of our recent history. And can you really deny the similarities of 23 and 34 and say that I shouldn’t be wary of it.

[ItalianoVD]

Information instead of analysis? that's a scumtell.
Town want to scumhunt, scum want to pose as town. The intristic motivation of town is to find the scum, and push other players. I hard disagree that tunneling would create noise and disrupt our scumhunting. Scum forcing the interactions doesn't help us identify them.

I don’t have a problem with this post. I like it.

If we are town it's usually better to let the scum force the interactions because it gives us a chance to figure out what they are up to and identify them. If you are scum you're hoping town will tunnel a lot and create a lot of noise which helps you hide and look for potential weak spots.

I agree with Shelly. I think that if everyone is active and engaged, that lets us get more information about who the scum is. If you try to let scum force the interactions, how do you know that the scum are the ones forcing the interactions? Quiet scum is scum we can't catch.

I agree, the only problem is everyone is NOT going to be active and engaged and I think what MUSHSHAGANA and Frogsterking are saying makes it better for town because there’ll be some type of cohesion, what scum don’t want. This should also kill off apathy which is what scum do want. I’m for it, just hope we don’t have to take the full 10-day allotment.

[ItalianoVD]

Oh so just because I smashed town makes you paranoid of me? And just because I missed a post and posted the same thing you suspect me? I don’t want you carrying grudges from one game to the other to affect your read on me.

I am town and I will flip town. If I have to flip to prove you right I will willingly champion my own wagon. I just don't get why you are so paranoid about me.

You said all this last game. I don’t think our back and forth is helping the town here. The players don’t have the context we do and it just seems like useless bickering. Plus you’re not gonna persuade me to think differently so we might as well just move on.

[ItalianoVD]

Finally got back home to see a whole lot of fluff before I've even gotten a chance to play. I hope this isn't going to be one of those all fluff no stuff games.

I don't like the lack of RVS vote from Frogster though. Even if it's not much a vote is still the only way for town to make any headway, especially at this stage of the game. As an SE he should know that.
VOTE: Frogster

Is this you leaving RVS or are you giving an RVS vote off the lack of an RVS vote?

[ItalianoVD]

...If we are town it's usually better to let the scum force the interactions because it gives us a chance to figure out what they are up to and identify them...

How would we do this? What would we be looking for? How would we tell the difference between town forced interactions and scum forced ones? I’m not sure if forcing interactions is AI.

[ItalianoVD]

Sooo, not much else going at the moment and we still have people who haven’t started playing yet.

With that said I’ve been thinking and I will admit that it’s more about ego here than anything regarding Shelly. I’m gonna back off. It would suck so hilariously bad if shellyc was scum again.

UNVOTE: shellyc

My tunnel vision isn’t gonna help the town though so...

[ItalianoVD]

Give me a moment to read up on some of the new posts made by MUSH and others.

[ItalianoVD]

For me it’s too early to do reads imo. I don’t do full readslist until everyone has posted and interacted a while, so that’ll come later, hopefully.

Regarding the MUSHSHAGANA/Frogsterking interaction. I get what Frogster is trying to say and I don’t think he was trying to misinterpret anything at least not on purpose; that’s my perception of it anyway. I think you both may be misinterpreting what the other is saying which is why you both seem to be missing each other. And I think the quickness to frame it as a misinterpretation instead of trying to get an understanding of what he was actually trying to say seems a bit unfair. I’m gut reading this as a town v town interaction at the moment, but we’ll see as the day goes on.

Call it anxiety or paranoia, but I’m not gonna feel comfortable with you until you are flipped and we know what your true alignment is.

I don't like this paranoid outlook at all. It makes it particularly hard to take you seriously regarding Shelly, especially as I don't see the biggest thing you've accused her of (repeating others) at all. VOTE: ItalianoVD

I get it. I don’t like judging players off of their previous game(s) but the reason this is a bit different is because it was shelly’s very first game on this site and I played with her and she was scum, so I don’t have anything else to base anything on, so it’s not blind paranoia, I think it’s somewhat justified imo. I will be keeping an eye on her though.

[ItalianoVD]

Finally got back home to see a whole lot of fluff before I've even gotten a chance to play. I hope this isn't going to be one of those all fluff no stuff games.

I don't like the lack of RVS vote from Frogster though. Even if it's not much a vote is still the only way for town to make any headway, especially at this stage of the game. As an SE he should know that.
VOTE: Frogster

Is this you leaving RVS or are you giving an RVS vote off the lack of an RVS vote?

This is my RVS vote.

Why are you answering questions directed at me?

I thought it was directed toward my late RVS vote.

Call it anxiety or paranoia, but I’m not gonna feel comfortable with you until you are flipped and we know what your true alignment is.

I don't like this paranoid outlook at all. It makes it particularly hard to take you seriously regarding Shelly, especially as I don't see the biggest thing you've accused her of (repeating others) at all. VOTE: ItalianoVD

I'm also curious to hear more about the repeating others tactic you observed, Italiano.

Prefacing by saying that this is probably NAI at this point, but I was curious so I assumed everyone else would be too:

Post count -
loz:

0

ItalianoVD:

7

shellyc:

14

Redados:

23

rocknil:

1

MUSHSHAGANA:

16

MagikHorse (SE):

7

Tatsuya Kaname (SE):

2

Frogsterking (SE):

4

This is not really helpful, given that anyone can simply scroll down to the bottom of the page, click "activity overview", and see every player's postcount at any moment. You can even get to everyone's ISOs from there too, just as you can by clicking the "ISO" button right next to the post number.

Are you just curious, or think there's something to gain from doing this? I'm suspecting the former for now given your preface.

I felt like Redados was just being helpful. Redados strikes me as being more agreeable and accommodating.

Okay, so there's an extra game dynamic going on here that I'm not familiar with. I'm gonna have to look at that game sometime when my mind's not addled by my meds.

I'm not seeing how Shelly's really "reposting" though. Could you elaborate on that a little?

Do you mind sharing now about the extra game dynamic you observed, Magik?

I'm also curious to hear more about the repeating others tactic you observed, Italiano.

So in last game, as you already know shelly was scum. It was her very first game and was sheeping what people were saying so much so practically saying, word for word the exact premise/idea/read, etc. One of the SE players pointed it out, but I saw it as nai and so as I mentioned I townread her for almost the entirety of the game until we got to lylo where I went back and forth before eliminating townie thinking he was scum although it was pretty unlikely. I thought I was thinking outside the box. When I pointed it out in 37, her post was exactly like it was in our previous game so it immediately stood out to me.

In any event, I don’t like Magik’s framing of it. Even after Redados explained it in 73 he still wants to pressure. @MagikHorse: What else would you like to know? I’d like to know what made my push on Shelly different from Redados’ in your mind? Same question for MUSHSHAGANA.

[ItalianoVD]

For ItalianoVD:
You have done little to no pushing on people other than Shelly. You have pushed way harder on Shelly than anyone but Shelly has pushed on anyone. Your reasoning is somewhere between "thin" and "wishful thinking". It feels more like you're taking paranoia from a past game into this one. That's not a scummy behavior, but it's anti-town. It helps the rest of us not at all.

Simply put: it's a team game, but your play isn't cooperative, it's personal.

This annoys me. I hate when players say this because the players that say it aren’t doing the same thing. It’s fine whatever. I will “push” some more people.

@MagikHorse: “To be blunt, one game is not a meta. You need at least two, one scum and one town, to be able to pick apart the differences between. Trying to meta read off of one game is destined to fail, and I don't like meta reads in general as more than a supporting argument for something stronger.”

This was my point. In the only game she played she was scum and she had tells. She uses those same tells in this game, which is her second game. You expect me to just say... “oh she’s probably town this game, even though she is doing the same thing and using the same tells she did as scum?” I’m not metareading per se because you can only meta read with more games. I only have one game to go by. Am I crazy? Does anyone else understand what I’m saying?

@Frederick: welcome to the game.

[ItalianoVD]

The post above shows that you are comfortable to assign a reason for why I came to the conclusion with disregard for the reason's accuracy. I suggest you start to attempt to understand the reasons a person holds their position instead of assigning reasons for it as failing to do so will result in your unintentional misrepresentation of a person's arguments and coming across as disingenuous. I believe this will make you appear more reasonable in future arguments.

This is not an argumentation or debate thread.

Uhh, that’s actually the basis of this game.

[ItalianoVD]

I’m not liking shelly’s responses to Frederick. Seems unnecessarily hostile and defensive. Does this qualify as a good enough read?

[ItalianoVD]

...

@Frederick: welcome to the game.

Thank you.

I’m not liking shelly’s responses to Frederick. Seems unnecessarily hostile and defensive. Does this qualify as a good enough read?

In my opinion, the observation is accurate. However, I don't think it necessarily means she is a mafioso, just an egotistical person. shellyc, describing you as egotistical is not meant as an insult, but just a description.

Shelly seems unnecessarily hostile in general, I'd say. Some people have that as a behavioral trait, scum or town, as Frederick says. I used to be one of them, and I'm not just talking about Mafia. (I've managed to mostly dial that back.)

I'd also say that you're getting too hung up on the similarities and not looking for any differences is another reason I dislike your hyper-focused pushes. And for the record: if you see no differences at all, that means you're just stuck on this read and not actually thinking about it. Different game, different time, different players all mean different dynamics and thus different behavior.

Pick at the differences and let them aid your conclusion, /then/ you're actually scumhunting. (Similarities are also useful, but you can't focus all on one and not at all on the other and still get useful information.)



For Frederick: I was asking in the most general sense. ANY play that comes across as scum play versus ANY play that comes off as town that isn't working in town's favor. I want a really high level overview of where your line is drawn, even if it's a thin and insubstantial line.

In my opinion, the observation is accurate. However, I don't think it necessarily means she is a mafioso, just an egotistical person. shellyc, describing you as egotistical is not meant as an insult, but just a description.

Okay, that’s fair.

I'd also say that you're getting too hung up on the similarities and not looking for any differences is another reason I dislike your hyper-focused pushes.

You don’t know if I’m not looking for differences. You’re assuming it. For all you know I’ve made my read based off the two.

And for the record: if you see no differences at all, that means you're just stuck on this read and not actually thinking about it.

Really? so that’s the only possibility. It couldn’t be that she actually is scum? Okay.

Pick at the differences and let them aid your conclusion, /then/ you're actually scumhunting. (Similarities are also useful, but you can't focus all on one and not at all on the other and still get useful information.)
That’s the thing. I feel like she is playing the same exact way. You are pushing for me to see differences and don’t like that I don’t. Now I could be wrong. I was very wrong last game, thinking I had it figured out. I’m trying to not act like I have it figured out, but it’s Day 1, we have little to no information. At first my vote is of course a joking RVS vote, but then I begin to see the same traits and actions that scum!shelly had. Let me say it this way. If this was shelly’s first game I wouldn’t think anything of it. I’d still question her defensiveness but there would more than likely not be a scumread or even suspicious read from her because she plays like a newbie townie would play. But that’s NOT the context here and I’m not liking the fact that you and Magik are seemingly disregarding that fact. I get what you’re saying and it’s a fair asssessment but I feel like you don’t get what I’m saying and are quick to just disregard it as anti-town and a weak push. Imo your argument would have merit if it was the scenario I outlined above, otherwise I think it’s just too one sided and closed.

I think Frederick perfectly outlines my thoughts in

157

. Again I’m not disregarding the possibility that she is townie, but it’s not something I’m gonna jump to immediately when I feel their is no difference in her play style.

@MUSHSHAGANA: Regarding your question. I think anti-town and scummy are interchangeable terms meaning the same thing. I think the line is drawn individually though. There’s no rule of thumb for drawing that line imo. The line for you maybe different for me or Magik or Shelly. All in all I think it comes down to a mixture of gut and logic.

[ItalianoVD]

Ughh. Sorry let me clean that up

[ItalianoVD]

In my opinion, the observation is accurate. However, I don't think it necessarily means she is a mafioso, just an egotistical person. shellyc, describing you as egotistical is not meant as an insult, but just a description.

Okay, that’s fair.

I'd also say that you're getting too hung up on the similarities and not looking for any differences is another reason I dislike your hyper-focused pushes.

You don’t know if I’m not looking for differences. You’re assuming it. For all you know I’ve made my read based off the two.

And for the record: if you see no differences at all, that means you're just stuck on this read and not actually thinking about it.

Really? so that’s the only possibility. It couldn’t be that she actually is scum? Okay.

Pick at the differences and let them aid your conclusion, /then/ you're actually scumhunting. (Similarities are also useful, but you can't focus all on one and not at all on the other and still get useful information.)

That’s the thing. I feel like she is playing the same exact way. You are pushing for me to see differences and don’t like that I don’t. Now I could be wrong. I was very wrong last game, thinking I had it figured out. I’m trying to not act like I have it figured out, but it’s Day 1, we have little to no information. At first my vote is of course a joking RVS vote, but then I begin to see the same traits and actions that scum!shelly had. Let me say it this way. If this was shelly’s first game I wouldn’t think anything of it. I’d still question her defensiveness but there would more than likely not be a scumread or even suspicious read from her because she plays like a newbie townie would play. But that’s NOT the context here and I’m not liking the fact that you and Magik are seemingly disregarding that fact. I get what you’re saying and it’s a fair asssessment but I feel like you don’t get what I’m saying and are quick to just disregard it as anti-town and a weak push. Imo your argument would have merit if it was the scenario I outlined above, otherwise I think it’s just too one sided and closed.

I think Frederick perfectly outlines my thoughts in 157. Again I’m not disregarding the possibility that she is townie, but it’s not something I’m gonna jump to immediately when I feel their is no difference in her play style.

@MUSHSHAGANA: Regarding your question. I think anti-town and scummy are interchangeable terms meaning the same thing. I think the line is drawn individually though. There’s no rule of thumb for drawing that line imo. The line for you maybe different for me or Magik or Shelly. All in all I think it comes down to a mixture of gut and logic.

[ItalianoVD]

Alright that’s better.

[ItalianoVD]

@MUSHSHAGANA: If you aren’t going to say what’s on your mind or what you’re thinking why allude to it? If you’re thinking about something or trying to form opinions, but they’re incomplete, wouldn’t it be better to wait until they are complete before sharing that you’re forming them? Lol, it’s like a teaser trailer.

[ItalianoVD]

Something I was thinking about. This is for MUSHSHAGANA and MagikHorse. Why are guys not questioning my townread on Redados? Redados is in the exact same category as shelly. It was his first game onsite and my first time playing with him. I’m using the exact same logic to read Redados that I am for shelly. If the premise of your argument is not to look at meta or to look at both the similarities and differences to come to my conclusion, then why not question my townread, why only the scumread? This is why I don’t necessarily like the push. I feel that if shelly is scum than one of you may be her partner.

[ItalianoVD]

I think I'm getting strong town vibe from MUSHSHAGANA.

UNVOTE: MUSHSHAGANA

Why? What has happened that is not giving you scummy vibes or triggering your ocd anymore? To go from that to “strong” town vibes is interesting.

[ItalianoVD]

All you've seen is a scumgame.

Exactly. All I’ve seen is a scumgame which means that’s all I have to go by.

You claim an action is scummy because they did it while scum. You have no clue if they do this as town because you've never seen them be town, and yet assume you must be correct.

Again, yes.

This looks like a classic case of confirmation bias, and so I have to ask: What about this action specifically are they unable or unlikely to do as town? Is it reasonably possible that this is just part of their ordinary behavior?

Is confirmation bias alignment indicative? Because scum have information the townies don’t have, can they have confirmation bias? I’m genuinely asking because I don’t know. And yes it is reasonably possible this is shelly’s ordinary behavior and I’ve said I wasn’t disregarding it as a possibility in 177, but as I said I don’t have a town game to formulate a different conclusion.

I'll give you some credit for 149, but that's the first thing you've said so far against Shelly that actually has any real substance. Even then I find her aggression to be townie, and actually would put her as my highest townread thus far. The only thing that gives me pause is 134, which comes across a lot more stilted and unnatural to me than the rest of her aggressive posts.

Okay, we’ll have to agree to disagree.

Especially since, just realized, the numbers used for this purpose have no actual relationship at all to this game! That assumes a 13 player game, this is a 9 player game. This is just about as bad as you can get in leading people down a pointless side path.

Considering you didn't even use the right numbers for the generalized probability and you could have used https://www.dcode.fr/picking-probabilities or a similar selection probability calculator to easily re-calculate something at least distantly tangentially useful, I'm not pleased with this by any means.

(That generalized probability for a 7/2 setup, for the record, comes out to roughly a 27.7777...% chance of both scum being in a random given selection of five players. Which means your mistake was genuinely dangerous, potentially risking town deciding not to scum-hunt among actives.)

My vote stays on you.

If you don't point out that it's inapplicable, the less mathematically inclined are likely to presume that the probability carries over to this. I'm fairly mathematically inclined, and I still nearly got caught by it -- I saw it was about a different number, but it took some cogitating before it struck me that 3/13 is a vastly different ratio from 2/9.

I‘m not liking your push on Frederick. It started with him not thinking a certain way about alignment and drawing the line between anti-town and scummy behavior. Frogster and Magik agreed with you and you just wrote them in as town, but because Frederick didn’t agree or didn’t see it the way you did, you vote for him.

And then the bad framing of why he did the player analysis count probability, whether you understood it or not seems very reachy and kinda pointless. I feel like you are underhandedly calling us dumb: both to understand the mathematics and to think we’d all be led astray by something like the mathematics. And as Shelly pointed out in 214 it’s not an alignment indicative action.

I think your reasoning for pushing/scumreading Frederick is just as empty as you say my read for shelly is.

I don't like 41, for a couple of reasons:

• 1. There are many better ways to get information other than voting randomly. The statement made about "
  voting is the only way for town to make any headway
  " is both a stretch and an overreaction to a non-issue.
  
  2. SE or not, RVS depends on the type of player you are, it has very little to do with experience itself. There's a good amount of shade being thrown here with the "
  as an SE, he should know that
  " statement, and I don't feel like it's warranted. Statements like that should be made based on the player itself (and his/her play style), and not their experience with the game as a whole without any context.

Redados dodged MagikHorse's simple question in 128. While both the original post (81) and the question (105) aren't great, I find it odd that both Redados dodged the question and that MagikHorse never followed up on it. Why ask something if you're going to drop it without an answer? It's not a reactionary question in any shape or form, so there's little reason to drop it regardless of if you think you know the answer or not. This is especially true when you consider what MagikHorse said in 76 about pressure.

The initial vote was weak, and was dropped without any pressure being thrown from MagikHorse's side.

• If MagikHorse's vote on Frogsterking was (semi-)RVS, then he would've done a reactionary play that caused some amount of pressure onto Frogsterking. This not only would've strengthened everyone's read on Frogsterking, it would've allowed every players in the pool to create discussions and build opinions at a much faster rate. I say this because it's one of the sole reason why you RVS someone. RVS by itself doesn't help anyone, but the reactions and interactions you can create from it can. I'm not saying every (or any) other player in this game did this, however MagikHorse voted Frogsterking with weak reasoning which I would consider a semi-RVS and applicable to everything I just said.
  
  If MagikHorse's vote itself was genuine, then he wouldn't have dropped it so easily. There was very little content from Frogsterking before that unvote that could've caused MagikHorse to vote swap. Because of this, MagikHorse could've caused a lot more pressure onto Frogsterking to solidify his read before potentially voting someone else regardless of if he still scum read Frogsterking or not.

VOTE: MagikHorse.

All fair points imo, but do you know for certain that Magik’s vote was a serious one? You didn’t ask him. I think it’s always better to interact with a player before just voting on them, even more so because this was your very first post. I don’t disagree with you, but I don’t know that’s what I’ve seen and it’s something seemingly frowned on by the town. I did that in my first game here and it wasn’t responded to well. Interact more, ask more questions and try to get more involved with the other players.

Which reminds me, I never followed up on that myself. @MagikHorse, I feel like I gave you an out in 94, which I believe you took in 108. Why didn’t you go further if you said it was a good start to leaving RVS? You said that but never really honed in on what you were possibly feeling or reading with Frogster. 125 was the last interaction with him and there’s really nothing there that shows what you felt towards him and/or why you stopped voting for him.

Why? What has happened that is not giving you scummy vibes or triggering your ocd anymore? To go from that to “strong” town vibes is interesting.

From what I've read so far, her arguments seemed like townlean to me. To be honest, I'm fairly new at this game. I don't have any particular playstyle besides being quiet and trusting my gut feeling. Also the 'Strong' vibe might've been a hyperbole.

So are you saying your vote on her was RVS? It seemed like you were playing with the CAPS name thing, but then you mentioned your OCD. I’m just trying to understand.

Something I was thinking about. This is for MUSHSHAGANA and MagikHorse. Why are guys not questioning my townread on Redados? Redados is in the exact same category as shelly. It was his first game onsite and my first time playing with him. I’m using the exact same logic to read Redados that I am for shelly. If the premise of your argument is not to look at meta or to look at both the similarities and differences to come to my conclusion, then why not question my townread, why only the scumread? This is why I don’t necessarily like the push. I feel that if shelly is scum than one of you may be her partner.

I admit the Redados townread hardly even registered because you literally just said it once in 71 and haven't mentioned your read on Redados before or since, or any reasoning for doing so either. Even then "I want to think they're town but I don't know how they act as scum" still doesn't fly at all for the same reason the Shelly read does.

Fair enough. And no, I am still basing it on the same logic used for shelly. I’ll get some reads up soon, but we still have time. Want to hear more from rock and van.

I went over all this in 154, but I never really got a response to that either. I'd like one.

What else didn’t I respond to. You said ‘either’ as if I forgot to respond to something else. Let me know what I missed and I’ll get to it. As far as 154 goes, I’m not sure what else you want me to say. I think I’ve been pretty clear and open about the what, why, and how.

your scumread on Shelly is obsessive, your townread on Redados is throw-away. Not liking that much now that I recall that it exists... barely. And yeah, it's just as invalid, since you could be stuck on bad information and not reading correctly... permitting scum to manipulate you freely.

Interesting. Well let me ask you how you’d respond in my situation. If you played with players one time and for the first time and you saw that they were a specific alignment at the end of the game; if those same players was in your playerlist the very next game, not 2-3 games later, but the very next one, how would you react? How would you read them initially? What would need to be done to make you think differently of them? And if that thing or things are not done, does it warrant a change in how you view them?

Redados is doing this really odd thing I am not fond of, where he repeatedly makes offhanded references to how town he is. Incessantly. It's more like it's for his own sake than for anyone else's. "Ah, yes, my confidence in being town is such that I do not crack under pressure!" Repeat until you believe. It's a bad look.

How is it offhanded? And incessantly? Really? His only post from what I’ve seen that he talks about his “towniness” is in 196. This is very bad framing.

[ItalianoVD]

I might vote people I don't scumread, if I don't have enough information. I might scumread people I don't vote, if I want to narrow the field. Or maybe I do scumread Frederick, but I don't feel like saying so.

If you must insist that it's a scumread, I encourage you to find me saying those words: you will not.

Saying more right this moment is premature.

I will point out your defense of Frederick is hilariously, pointlessly personal. Nothing about "people who aren't enthusiastically excited about mathematics are unlikely to pour a lot of time and effort into checking the validity of a mathematical post" is calling you or anyone else dumb. Take me for example: you could not pay me to sit down and read German philosophers, that's just the beginning and the end of that discussion -- and it has nothing to do with my intelligence or lack thereof.

I went out of my way to phrase that so that the exact interpretation of my words you're laboring under would not be an easy fit: one has to PURPOSEFULLY presume that is the meaning. Your phrasing it to try and make it an insult to every player (presumably to call for backup) is even MORE interesting.

Tell me, ItalianoVD: why exactly is my push on Frederick something you're taking just so damned personally?

I might vote people I don't scumread, if I don't have enough information. I might scumread people I don't vote, if I want to narrow the field. Or maybe I do scumread Frederick, but I don't feel like saying so.

Maybe you and I are just on different wavelengths regarding voting. I DO vote for my most suspicious and/or highest scumread and I DON’T vote for players I feel are town. To me it doesn’t make sense to do it otherwise, but that’s me. And you not saying what’s really going on in that mind of yours, is that helping the town? Sure you may be trying to keep scum nervous, but as town it’s annoying. Like I said, you’re teasing a trailer, but don’t have a date the movie is coming out.

If you must insist that it's a scumread, I encourage you to find me saying those words: you will not.

I never insisted on anything... what I said was “I think your reasoning for pushing/scumreading Frederick is just as empty as you say my read for shelly is.”
This is not me saying you outright scumread Frederick, this is me saying the reason for voting Frederick is either you pushing him OR scumreading him because in my mind, why else would you vote or push?

I will point out your defense of Frederick is hilariously, pointlessly personal. Nothing about "people who aren't enthusiastically excited about mathematics are unlikely to pour a lot of time and effort into checking the validity of a mathematical post" is calling you or anyone else dumb. Take me for example: you could not pay me to sit down and read German philosophers, that's just the beginning and the end of that discussion -- and it has nothing to do with my intelligence or lack thereof.

I went out of my way to phrase that so that the exact interpretation of my words you're laboring under would not be an easy fit: one has to PURPOSEFULLY presume that is the meaning. Your phrasing it to try and make it an insult to every player (presumably to call for backup) is even MORE interesting.

I think you have to separate why I don’t like your push on Frederick vs why I don’t like what you said about the rest of us. The two are not mutually exclusive.

I took what you said in 213 as: I am good in and like math and I almost got caught, so I know the rest of the players that are NOT mathematically inclined like myself are going to miss it or get caught.

• 1 - It makes it seem as if you are bragging about being amazing. It’s not alignment indicative, it’s probably just a personality clash with my own.
  2 - You just assumed that no one is on your level of understanding, which caused you to read Frederick based on an assumption of other players which is why I said what I said in 220
  
  And if
  I
  felt this way about the post, you’re right, I did want to highlight it for the others so they could come in and either confirm what I’m feeling or say I’m crazy or off and to move on. Maybe instead of assuming things and then building your pushes/reads off of it, you could just ask and clear things up.

Tell me, ItalianoVD: why exactly is my push on Frederick something you're taking just so damned personally?

I’m not taking your push onto him personal. I am taking what you said about the math personal. Also there were other things in 220 I wanted you to answer or comment on. Could you do that when you get the chance please. Thanks.

[ItalianoVD]

Shelly can you explain what happened between 224 and 238 and what MUSH said to make you change?

[ItalianoVD]

@MUSHSHAGANA: It seems you and I are on different wavelengths at the moment. I will admit that I just don’t understand what you’re doing and/or why your doing it. You don’t wanna give reads, you don’t wanna say what’s on your mind, you don’t wanna be pushed. Not sure how you normally react when people push you but that’s what I’m doing and your reaction to it is very projective. Are you exempt from being pushed? Surely not. You disliked my push onto shelly and said so. I explained why. You didn’t like the explanation. I dislike your push onto Frederick. You explained why. I didn’t like your explanation. That’s it. There’s nothing personal there. And if I implied something that you did not say than I apologize. If I’m reading words, I don’t have tone, I don’t have facial expression, so it’s all I have to go by. I don’t like your playstyle, doesn’t mean I think you’re scum. And you don’t have to answer my other questions, it’s fine. You can respond if you want, you don’t have to. There won’t be another rebuttal from me.

[ItalianoVD]

I wanted to hear more and interact more with van and rock before posting my reads, but I guess now is better than waiting on them to come back. Her we go:

• van - not a bad first post from van. Problem is there is only one. I’d like to see his response to MagikHorses’s defense. Not enough info to townread, but his post was a very townie type post.
  
  shellyc - shellyc for the most part is playing the same as last game. She was scum last game. Got a lot of heat for giving my thoughts on shelly and thinking she is scum this game. As the day has gone on, I still don’t townread her fully. She has had some good posts that I agree with. I am 50/50 on her so I will place her at null for now.
  
  Redados - Aside from playing like he did last game, I feel Redados is town here. His questioning, logic, and posting has felt very town. He doesn’t go with the crowd and isn’t scared to disagree with anyone, SE or not. That’s someone that won’t be manipulated.
  
  rocknil - has not done anything in this game. His pattern can be looked at as newbscum at best and lurking newbtown at worst. Either way, it’s not helpful. Chances are he will be replaced. We’ll see.
  
  MUSHSHAGANA - Not really sure what to feel here. I initially townread Mush. I’ve mentioned already that I believe our personalities and playstyles clash. Most of her posts seem town, but I really think her push on Frederick is not in good faith. I will null read her with a slight town direction. Just when I want to solidify the town lean she says something that makes me think otherwise.
  
  MagikHorse - I mentioned in 188 that I felt one of MUSH or Magik could be shelly’s partner if she were to flip scum. With the understanding that I could be wrong about shelly this theory would be shot down at that point. Because I don’t have that information, I’m putting Magik in the same category as MUSHSHAGANA. He hasn’t said anything weird and has been somewhat careful in his responses, but I can’t solidly put him into an alignment yet.
  
  Fredrick A Campbell - Frederick has seemed like town from his posting and interactions with others. I think he’s been misunderstood by the town, especially MUSHSHAGANA. It was pretty clear what he was saying when he said a player can be scummy, but not necessarily be scum. Post 157 stated it perfectly in my opinion. The other things he is being scumread for I just don’t see them. They also aren’t alignment indicative imo.
  
  Frogsterking - Frogster has also seemed fairly town with his posting and interactions. I like what was given in 254. It was a very interesting and informative read and I think very good for the town moving forward.

With that said I’m placing my vote down.

VOTE: rocknil

[ItalianoVD]

Yeah unfortunately I have been scumread in all the games I’ve played on this site. Even in the other forums I’ve been a part of I am generally looked at as more wolfy than villagery. I’ve been told it’s the way I read people and how I post. shelly, I actually only truly town read 3 players (Redados, Frogsterking and Frederick). I could I’ve been right a larger percentage of the time in my history, but I can still be wrong here. It’s the scumreading I still have a problem with. But those are simply the three players I wouldn’t be comfortable eliminating today.

[ItalianoVD]

I would quite like ItalianoVD to weigh in on an elimination pool for today.

Well I’ve already stated my no lynch pool. Rock, van, shelly, in that order.

[ItalianoVD]

Sorry everyone, I haven’t really been able to get on and be as active as I would like, this is why I’ve tried to get everything into big posts so I can kinda answer everyone. Things have cleared up for me better so I should definitely be more active. Weekends will still be the way they are though.

Bear with me while I catch up.

[ItalianoVD]

Your case is "Oh shelly is scum because they are playing so similar to last game" which is faulty meta analysis. I can play like scum when I'm town because you've never seen a town game from me.

This sounds like both MUSH and Magik’s argument and doesn’t seem like natural defense.

I will repeat this one more time. Just because I did these things as scum doesn't mean I can't do these things as town. (My tendencies happen

as both alignments.)

...

We don’t know this. I don’t know this and was my main argument for reading you the way I did/do.

[ItalianoVD]

We can go back and forth whether or not it is AI, but it is anti-town.

I’m not so sure being defensive is anti-town. It’s just a personality or play style trait imo.

You say that my case on you is that you are playing similar to last game and you were scum. My actual "case" on you (which is less of a case and more of a scumread) is that you are playing in a similar, anti-town way to last game and you were scum last game.

This.

[ItalianoVD]

I don’t really disagree that rocknil could be a miselimination waiting to happen...

So then should we really eliminate him? He may stink as a player, but if that’s not the best move than maybe we should rethink it. Frogster has already done so in 336 & 338.

He IS, unequivocally, the easiest target to get a wagon on based on stated elimination pools. He also is one of the lowest engagement players and THE lowest information player, and his elimination (regardless of flip) substantially tightens the game state.

What am I missing with Frederick?

Reframing this: Does anyone except Shelly object to a Shelly elimination? Can we get a lock on an elimination wagon and promises that active players will push it to completion no matter their gripes, please? Because otherwise I’m saying that we stick with rocknil because no other player is that slow to respond and lacking in any informational content, and no other player has as many potential happy voters waiting to plonk down on them.

I don’t object. As the day has gone on I feel more comfortable with it. I just had to build the read more organically, so even though we clashed, thanks for letting me see that.

Second reframe: Shelly is a high information target for elimination, MagikHorse is not.

MagikHorse has done far less interacting with the majority of players, more bouncing off of them than pushing anything too hard.

Since Frogster’s MagikHorse vote is in part based on scum-interpreted Shelly interactions, I would recommend her over him.

(Bolded) And how do you feel about this? What are your feelings towards Magik, unless of course you don’t want to reveal it, then I guess it’s fine.

@Frogsterking: Coukd you let me know what towntold is again. I asked one of the SE’s last game and I’ve looked in his posts but I can’t find what he said.

[ItalianoVD]

And what’s with MUSH and shelly wanting to and actually voting for themselves? Come on, y’all been talking about anti-town behavior all day and this is anti town. I think we should chill with the dramatics as I’m fairly sure we can come to an agreement.

[ItalianoVD]

As a matter of fact I’m gonna change my vote back.

VOTE: Shellyc that’s E-2.

BTW, welcome to the game Lavar, good to have you.

[ItalianoVD]

As a matter of fact I’m gonna change my vote back.

VOTE: Shellyc that’s E-2.

BTW, welcome to the game Lavar, good to have you.

I've literally roleclaimed. I hope my townieness will shine through in these dying moments. Because I will flip town.

You roleclaimed last game and were scum.

[ItalianoVD]

And what’s with MUSH and shelly wanting to and actually voting for themselves? Come on, y’all been talking about anti-town behavior all day and this is anti town. I think we should chill with the dramatics as I’m fairly sure we can come to an agreement.

If I get eliminated and I flip as a Vanilla Townie, you / Redados will be able to not get paranoid about my alignment, the town will get associative tells, the people on my wagon would be under scrutiny, and there would be an abundance of scumtells and towntells generating from my eliminate. Explain why this is anti town. I will die for the greater good, if it is required.
It’s anti-town because it knowingly hurts our wincon. Remember when I tried to “honor” the death pact last game and was told in so many words I was being stupid. That was anti-town then. Even though it was late in the game and now it’s Day 1, at no point does it make sense for town to self-eliminate, especially in this setup.

[ItalianoVD]

And what’s with MUSH and shelly wanting to and actually voting for themselves? Come on, y’all been talking about anti-town behavior all day and this is anti town. I think we should chill with the dramatics as I’m fairly sure we can come to an agreement.

If I get eliminated and I flip as a Vanilla Townie, you / Redados will be able to not get paranoid about my alignment, the town will get associative tells, the people on my wagon would be under scrutiny, and there would be an abundance of scumtells and towntells generating from my eliminate. Explain why this is anti town. I will die for the greater good, if it is required.

It’s anti-town because it knowingly hurts our wincon. Remember when I tried to “honor” the death pact last game and was told in so many words I was being stupid. That was anti-town then. Even though it was late in the game and now it’s Day 1, at no point does it make sense for town to self-eliminate, especially in this setup.

[ItalianoVD]

Town's wincon is to eliminate all the scum. If my eliminate helps town find the scum I am willing to do so.

Yes but purposely removing a town slot, without having close to a guarantee it gets scum, helps the scum wincon ultimately.

[ItalianoVD]

Second reframe: Shelly is a high information target for elimination, MagikHorse is not. MagikHorse has done far less interacting with the majority of players, more bouncing off of them than pushing anything too hard. Since Frogster’s MagikHorse vote is in part based on scum-interpreted Shelly interactions, I would recommend her over him.

So you don't think I was pushing hard on Italiano at all then? Sure it was somewhat based on his bad logic,

but I was at least trying to crack through to see if there were some shady motivations behind that.

I could easily see scum!Italiano trying to get revenge on Shelly from the game before and hoping I'd see something to indicate that within.

And did you find what you looking for? What are your thoughts on others in the playerlist?

[ItalianoVD]

Placing someone at L1 or hammering without saying is not a good thing to do according to the site’s meta. I’m not sure if I agree with it or not. I caught heat for it last game and I guess it’s a thing, but I don’t think it’s as anti-town as it’s made out to be.

I’ve seen it in every game and in every game someone says something about it, like it’s a forgone conclusion that something is supposed to be said about it.

Could Frogsterking be scum? Sure?, could he be scum because of placing Shelly at L1 without notice? Not likely. I’ve come to realize in my short time here that the act itself is probably more nai than anything. I’ve actually seen more town do it than scum and probably because the scum know it’s a “scum tell”

[ItalianoVD]

Rocknil now voting for shelly with a long post saying why seems a little forced, but I’d like to give you the benefit of the doubt. You don’t talk all day, then you come in with a fairly decent reason for voting.

I'm happy that Rocknil posted but I am absolutely baffled by the contrast between post 299 vs 457. I'm not sure if a scum partner wrote the post for him or if he just shaped up a little bit. Huge contrast.

I didn’t think I had any valuable things to say before. But given the situation, I won’t quietly go out to make scums game any easier.

I will agree with Redados on this point: this sounds like something that could be told to a newbscum by an experienced one. Given this is the situation now, however, let’s hear more from you and see you interact more with the rest of the playerlist. This may be your playstyle, unfortunately you didn’t give us the opportunity to form that opinion.

[ItalianoVD]

shellyc had failed to make coherent thoughts throughout this game. How is she suddenly able to come up with the idea of fake claiming a power role?

I don’t know if that’s a fair statement. I wouldn’t say that about shelly at all. As a matter of fact I think shelly is more experienced in this game than she may let on.

[ItalianoVD]

It's Monday. I would like to hear more of ItalianoVD's thoughts on current events.

You know you don’t have to keep prompting me to post my thoughts. I will and do.

[ItalianoVD]

It's Monday. I would like to hear more of ItalianoVD's thoughts on current events.

You know you don’t have to keep prompting me to post my thoughts. I will and do.

Maybe it's all in my head but I feel like you've been much less active this game than last.

Not alignment indicative of course because real life stuff comes up and is more important. But I keep forgetting that you're even in the game.

Fair enough. Like I said things have cleared up so I should be able to be more active, less so on the weekends. Ask me anything.

[ItalianoVD]

Fair enough. Like I said things have cleared up so I should be able to be more active, less so on the weekends. Ask me anything.

I'm frustrated with myself that I can't get any sort of read on you.

What are your thoughts on Fredrick A Campbell?

Fair enough. Like I said things have cleared up so I should be able to be more active, less so on the weekends. Ask me anything.

I'm frustrated with myself that I can't get any sort of read on you.

What are your thoughts on Fredrick A Campbell?

Lol, I don’t think you’re looking hard enough. I believe I’ve touched on everyone in the playerlist, some more than others. I’ve given my thoughts about Frederick in: 220, 298 & 318

Part of playstyle is when I townread someone or when I’m trying to townread someone, I don’t interact with them that much unless I see something that stands out or they ask me things. When I don’t interact, it’s because nothing stands out. That may seem like distancing for people others scumread, but that’s not it. As you saw in last game, I townread Micc and didn’t really interact with him the rest of the day really and I eventually got a case pushed onto me because of it. That may be bad play for some, but it’s worked for me for years.

[ItalianoVD]

Since you guys seemed to like my last source I'll link another one I thought was helpful:

https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/fo ... University


This is a collection of 24 articles that in my opinion range from moderately low to very high in level of expertise. In addition to the varying levels of expertise the information is qualitative in nature as opposed to quantitative so it's unlike the other source I shared. This source was useful for things like understanding different terminology, understanding differences between metas and medias of mafia, and understanding what kind of high level strategies exist for both sides.

I think after the game is over we definitely have to have some intellectual discussions. I’m liking these articles very much. Anything that stimulates the mind for me is cause for celebration.

This daystart makes sense to me. Mush is demonstrating abilities like range of vocabulary, flexibility, ability to think from multiple perspectives. Seems like someone who wants to have a significant voice within the village and is willing to take on pressure/attention from other players. Struck me as a strong D1 player who sometimes had trouble later in the game which Mush self-confirmed. It makes me believe it will be easier to attempt to read Mush later in the game as opposed to earlier.

Here is one of the articles I linked to at the beginning of this post:
https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/th ... tichora%29

Here is another one:
https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/th ... erchief%29

These articles describe an alternative strategy for scum that involves becoming the influential player that is townread and directs the attention of the other players. I describe it as alternative because I believe strong scum players will usually try to play somewhere in the middle of status so they don't get lynched early and have some input but it still makes sense they're alive after multiple night kills. Based on Mush's reaction to my suggestion town let scum make plays it appears to me that Mush is hyper-vigilant of the alternative game plan of taking control early. If Mush is scum this is the approach she is choosing to take this game and it seems like she drew an enormous amount of attention to it by continuing her interaction with me. This is a big reason why I not only believe she might be town but that she's a poor D1 lynch and will be easier to understand later.

I didn't think about that possibility, but it makes sense. I was townreading her because I DON’T think scum would be that bold. Am I interpreting that right?

I'm curious what others have to say because to me it looks like you reacted the way you did not because of the quantity of votes but because you had some certainty they were coming from a town direction.

I didn’t like the self-vote period and I think the reasoning while seemingly noble doesn’t help the town. I didn’t take it the way you did, however, I don’t know how to find those hidden meanings anyway.

I was curious about the percentage of games where both scum players adopt a power-scum strategy like I described earlier and if there was any statistical or behavioral way to determine what kind of game-state we were in before seeing any flips.

This is one of the reasons I didn’t like Mush’s push onto Frederick because he was answering a question you asked. I didn’t see it as him trying to persuade the town to think a certain way or do a certain thing. If he had done it unprompted then I could see Mush’s point.

[ItalianoVD]

Aside from Shelly and Frogster: everyone explain why I’m town.

I don’t like your play style. I think it doesn’t help town to never tell your reads I didn’t like your push on Frederick at the time it was happening, then your reaction to me pushing you was less than ideal imo. I especially didn’t like 268. I felt you were playing your own game. You never answered my questions, which I already said was alright, but the fact is you didn’t and even said you weren’t. I don’t know if this is how you play normally or if it’s alignment based.

Most of your actions have been more protown, your posts and certain interactions have been antitown. There’s a reason you aren’t in my no lynchpool, but alternatively I don’t think I wanna eliminate you. Think of yourself as trying to stand up on thin ice with cracks in it.

[ItalianoVD]

Mush, I don't have a read on you.

What are your thoughts then?

[ItalianoVD]

Haha! Well, I’m glad our view of each other is mutual. Let’s see how that works out long term, shall we?

Lol, yeah let’s see.

[ItalianoVD]

Actually, looking at the player list, it seems that I have a minor townread on everyone except for shellyc and rocknil.

Aside from Shelly and Frogster: everyone explain why I’m town.

Drawing out information through the early game (even using fluffier posts to do so), plenty of informative "hot takes" like 89 and 304 that aren't afraid to ruffle a few feathers, and snapping me out of the dumb Italiano argument helps as well (I daresay scum would've probably been happy if I just kept my focus on him all day long). Overall you're utterly oozing with drive and determination to figure players out, not just eliminate them, and you've now kept to your promise to explain things as well.

I would still like a response to 431 though, though I will amend that I've re-ISO'd Italiano and found his 149 rather weird, like he was trying to placate the town with a more valid reason to justify the Shelly scumread when we started to squeeze down on him about his fallacious logic. Am I reading too much into this, or is this worth the callout?

Weak. If you’re gonna call me out, then call me out. And yes that read was facetious, since you and Mush were saying how bad my reasons for reading Shelly were. You, however, responded and said it was better and now you wanna come back and push it again?

[ItalianoVD]

Actually, looking at the player list, it seems that I have a minor townread on everyone except for shellyc and rocknil.

So are you gonna vote for them?

[ItalianoVD]

Who is on right now

[ItalianoVD]

The deadline is coming and it looks like it’s getting very close to a no elimination.

[ItalianoVD]

Italiano, I'm on. Want to switch to Fredrick A Campbell so we dodge no elim?

Sorry Redados, I went to go drop off my sister at work and was gonna come back and do so. I didn’t like how he didn’t vote when I asked him. He said “he didn’t see the point”. I think he may be the Day 2 target. I may have been wrong about him.

[ItalianoVD]

Okay, well sorry Shellyc. At least we know now. I think MUSH was the right kill for scum, I believe she may have been onto something.

My FoS is Frederick for now. I didn’t like the non-voting, especially because he could have placed a vote down before he left. I still think I must have missed something on his universal scumread. @Rocknil: are you going to say more today? Or are you gonna lurk again?

[ItalianoVD]

I am here. Should I hammer shelly?
I think Fredrick did not vote because he wanted to give us more time to discuss. I still think Fredrick is pretty suspicious.

Do you think his non-voting is nai then? Since you think he’s pretty suspicious?

[ItalianoVD]

Assuming Italiano is town, we have that the possible scum teams are
rocknil-Fredrick
rocknil-Frogster
rocknil-Magik Horse
Fredrick-Frogster
Fredrick-Magik Horse
Frogester-Magik Horse
I have already explained why I don't think rocknil and Fredrick are aligned, so I will be looking at the remaining 5 hypothetical teams. This assumes that Italiano is town which is dangerous, but I am still believing in it right now.

What makes you assume that?

[ItalianoVD]

For the record I don’t particularly like being townread, I guess I’m used to having to prove myself otherwise

[ItalianoVD]

What makes you think Frogsterking could be scum, because I don’t think so at all.

[ItalianoVD]

Why did Fredrick not vote???? Was he afraid to hammer because he knew that ShellyC was town? Or am I overthinking it?

VOTE: Fredrick A Campbell

I think we gotta wait to see what Frederick says, but not voting is questionable.

[ItalianoVD]

What makes you think Frogsterking could be scum, because I don’t think so at all.

Don't forget, he didn't vote in RVS /s

Yeah that’s true, but did we ever solidify that that was alignment indicative?

[ItalianoVD]

If Shelly flips green... consider the value of a Frogster and Frederick scumteam and compare it with how their interactions and play have been.

Mush was saying this for the better part of Day 1. I know she could be wrong, but I’m gonna at least look at it.

I asked this before but no one answered? For those scumreading or suspicious of Frederick, what exactly is it that makes you think the way you do? And are these actions alignment indicative?

[ItalianoVD]

What makes you think Frogsterking could be scum, because I don’t think so at all.

Don't forget, he didn't vote in RVS /s

Yeah that’s true, but did we ever solidify that that was alignment indicative?

"/s" stands for sarcasm.

I'm personally townreading Frogsterking but I'm not sure if that's because he is townreading me. So I'm trying to acknowledge that.

Oh, lol thanks for clearing that up.

[ItalianoVD]

As far as I was concerned, my vote didn't matter. The person we were going to execute was going to be shellyc and I was convinced by MUSHSHAGANA that it was not a good idea to suggest an alternative execution, which, as it happens I didn't have. Although my scumread on shellyc waned later, I still thought it was not a good idea to make that public, for I had no alternative execution.

As for why I didn't hammer shellyc, I trusted MUSHSHAGANA to do it, as she said she would switch her vote over anytime but wanted to let others put their thoughts out.

What is YOUR thought on everyone’s scumread of you. At the moment the only thing I have on you is not voting and well that’s practically nothing.

[ItalianoVD]

One of my fears is being wrong, so

sometimes I might vote someone even if I don't strongly believe that they are scum

. I need to work on that.

I notice a lot of players in this game do this and it still doesn’t make sense to me. I don’t think I ever will. How does this help the town?

@Frederick: I wasn’t actually scumreading you because of you’re non-vote, but I am keeping an eye on you. Let’s see what happens today.

With that said I don’t like rocknil’s Day 2 post, how he made his vote, and his activity added onto his overall posting and activity.
VOTE: rocknil

[ItalianoVD]

@Frederick: what do you think about the Mush kill?

[ItalianoVD]

I notice a lot of players in this game do this and it still doesn’t make sense to me. I don’t think I ever will. How does this help the town?

It tends to happen as the deadline gets closer. I didn't really scumread either one of shellyc or Fredrick, but deadline called...

In this instance it made sense, but lots of players vote for people they townread and don’t vote for people they scumread. I’m still trying to understand if there is true strategy behind that.

[ItalianoVD]

I’ve gone back over Day 1 and I’m still not seeing the early universal scumread of Frederick. I will admit as the Day went on he appeared more nonchalant and apathetic, but I’ve seen townies play and act this way. I’m still slightly townreading Frederick.

Another scumteam I do not find likely would be Fredrick and Frogsterking. I don't think that interaction earlier today looks fake.
Perhaps the scumteam is (Frogster, rocknil)? I am not sure.

You initially scumread Frederick and you don’t now. What happened or what did he do that has made you think otherwise? Or was it something someone said?

.
I guess I'm curious what everyone else has to say about the night kill?

I think Mush was killed to try and frame Frederick. I don’t know, that’s what it seems like to me. The other possibility is that Frederick did want Mush to die. I don’t see it because it seems too obvious, but I guess it’s something that wouldn’t be smart for me to overlook.

I am still townreading Italiano and I still townread you, so I am thinking we can try to find the scumteam in the remaining pool of four players based on how they have interacted. I do not think rocknil is scum with Fredrick because there is no need to open up the day with a vote on his scumbuddy. I also do not like how rocknil chose to ignore my vote on him.

Are you saying you still think rocknil is scum? Just not with Frederick?

In Day 1, I pushed hard for shellyc. I thought there was something tangible there but I was wrong. I don't blame you for scumreading me. But you are wrong. I am now going over the thread to find the scum team. I have this feeling that I've missed something.

Hey, I know shelly being townie threw me off, so going back through makes sense, unless of course you’re just doing it because you know that’s what town would do.

[ItalianoVD]

Welcome to the game Casey. You can definitely talk.

Ok then
Italiano? Was Redados similarly LAMIST in 2019?

He actually was. I actually scumread him early for doing what I thought was LAMIST by giving a readslist on page 2.

[ItalianoVD]

Welcome to the game Casey. You can definitely talk.

Who is the mafia?

Mafia: an organized international body of criminals, operating originally in Sicily and now especially in Italy and the US and having a complex and ruthless behavioral code.

[ItalianoVD]

Welcome to the game Casey. You can definitely talk.

Who is the mafia?

Mafia: an organized international body of criminals, operating originally in Sicily and now especially in Italy and the US and having a complex and ruthless behavioral code.

VOTE: Italiano

Who do you think the mafia is? You’re reading the game. What have you come up with? I could tell you, but I don’t want it to persuade your thinking.

[ItalianoVD]

I thought and think that the behaviour is scummy, but probably not-alignment indicative.

How do you define "scummy" if not as "indicative of scum"?

To behave as though one is scum/aligned with the mafia.

I think the things which are usually labeled scummy often come from townie players.

[ItalianoVD]

Rocknil now voting for shelly with a long post saying why seems a little forced, but I’d like to give you the benefit of the doubt. You don’t talk all day, then you come in with a fairly decent reason for voting.

A vocal majority has panned Rock's post (including me!) but you're willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, despite saying it seems a little forced. Why is that?

Simply because I wanted to give him a chance to build more of a presence in the game. This way I could have more information before making a final decision. I haven’t really gotten that which is why he has my vote for today.

[ItalianoVD]

You're not reading this game if you can't figure out what my reads are so far.

What is up with people safeguarding their thoughts this game?

So who do you think the scum is?

[ItalianoVD]

Don't try and argue your way out of being scumread. Just keep posting. The more you post, the more that your true character will shine through.

Great advice! I was trying to overthink again, but this solidifies my read on you. This is good because if you’re town, posting more will show you more and more town and if you’re scum, posting more will show you more and more scum.

[ItalianoVD]

Mush seemed fine with Italiano about midway through the day, weakly townreading him. Around post #300 though Mush's opinion of Italiano went sharply downhill and deteriorated rapidly throughout the day.

In the spoiler I have posts 257, 268, 304, 310, 312, 319, 386 and 495

I wouldn’t say fine, I believe she was tolerating me all throughout, the way I was her. She initially pressured me over how I was reading shellyc and the so called “stubbornness” of my play. I still don’t get how she could pressure me on that, but pressuring her about Frederick didn’t receive the same fairness, calling my dislike of her push on Frederick personal. And no, I wasn’t trying to game solve on Day 1. Shelly seemed like scum, I voted for her.

In my opinion the Mush kill benefited Italiano the most next to Frederick obviously. I'll touch on what Mush said about Rocknil a little bit later, but in my interpretation Mush viewed Rocknil as more of a policy lynch with a scumlean and had more substantial concerns about Italiano. I can't imagine a world where Italiano is expecting to win a lylo as scum with Mush alive unless he is expecting to persuade a townie to lynch Mush which seems unlikely. This definitely was a tick in the scum direction for Italiano for me because in my opinion Mush had to die at some point as far as Italiano's win condition is concerned. Consider 386 and 460, it seems as though shelly's erratic play drew all of Mush's attention away from Italiano which was why we did not hear about him more from Mush by the end of the day.

Of course, but in my mind Mush getting killed could incriminate two people, mainly Frederick, which is why I said what I said in 627 and asked Fredrick what he thought about it. You were the other person. Mush was basing her read of you on the shelly flip. She stated you would have been her main target had 1) shelly townflipped and 2) she survived.

Mush's sentiment toward him was also something he was clearly aware of, because they both acknowledged it to each other in 496, 498 and 499

Of course I was aware of it. Not sure why you are framing it otherwise.

Italiano is also keenly aware he could night kill Mush to remove a key threat without being overtly blamed for it as evidenced by his response to me in post 627

Sounds like a thought or premise from a biased point of view. It makes sense, but you’re assessment is wrong.

[ItalianoVD]

Thank you for doing that effort. How much value do you place on kill analysis?

@Italiano: I still wanna know who you think is maf.

I don’t solve for partners so if you want me to try to solve the game that way then you’re gonna be disappointed. I think scum is somewhere within rock, Lavar and you/MagikHorse. I’d be okay eliminating

As I’ve stated already, Redados, Frederick, and somewhat Frogsterking are in my no lynch pool

[ItalianoVD]

Ok, I suppose I will ignore Casey's scumread on me then. I do think I have shown attempts to solve.

Not sure why you would just ignore it.

[ItalianoVD]

rocknil is eligible for another prod. As this is his third prod, I am now seeking a replacement.

This game has had a lot of replacements. The most since I been on here.

[ItalianoVD]

Thank you for doing that effort. How much value do you place on kill analysis?

@Italiano: I still wanna know who you think is maf.

I don’t solve for partners so if you want me to try to solve the game that way then you’re gonna be disappointed. I think scum is somewhere within rock, Lavar and you/MagikHorse. I’d be okay eliminating

As I’ve stated already, Redados, Frederick, and somewhat Frogsterking are in my no lynch pool

Since you townread Frogsterking, what do you have to say about my scumread on Frogsterking.

I don’t know how to feel about it cause I’ve read your case on him especially 759 and I was kinda confused at how you were trying to explain it. So are you really scumreading Frog for asking everyone about the nightkill?

[ItalianoVD]

The scumread isn't over your obsession of the night kill. It is over your obsession of what others think of the night kill.

So he shouldn’t ask what people think about what's going in the game? This is a weird statement.

[ItalianoVD]

If I remove my reads of you both and I’m looking at this objectively I’d say posts 768 769 770 771 772 773 774 is a much better made case then 759.

With that said, I can’t say it makes me feel good. I’ve wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt because I feel/felt like you were being unfairly scumread by everyone Day 1, but now it seems like you are doing the same thing to Frogster.

[ItalianoVD]

In conclusion, my current scumread on Frogsterking is over his obsession of what everyone thinks of the nightkill, while my reason for scumreading Frogsterking when I made the post you quoted was for post 640 and my very first suspicions on Frogsterking was because of his obsession over the nightkill.

I'll agree in the very least that the things Frog has said outside of analyses and theory don't sit well with me.

I don’t get 640. So because he said welcome to “town” instead of game, that’s suspicious? And what has he done?

[ItalianoVD]

@Italiano: I still wanna know who you think is maf.

I don’t solve for partners so if you want me to try to solve the game that way then you’re gonna be disappointed. I think scum is somewhere within rock, Lavar and you/MagikHorse. I’d be okay eliminating

As I’ve stated already, Redados, Frederick, and somewhat Frogsterking are in my no lynch pool

Why is Frog "somewhat" in that pool?

You know, I can’t remember why I said that. I may have been overthinking or something. Sorry that I can’t give you more than that, but just know he’s in my no lynch pool.

[ItalianoVD]

@Italiano: I still wanna know who you think is maf.

I don’t solve for partners so if you want me to try to solve the game that way then you’re gonna be disappointed. I think scum is somewhere within rock, Lavar and you/MagikHorse. I’d be okay eliminating

As I’ve stated already, Redados, Frederick, and somewhat Frogsterking are in my no lynch pool

Why is Frog "somewhat" in that pool?

Also I really don't think Lavar is maf.

Well he is there from PoE in my mind. And it also wouldn’t surprise me if he was so I’m comfortable with it.

[ItalianoVD]

I’ve skimmed over the last few pages and I’m still trying to understand the Frogster/Frederick angles.

Let’s hope our suspicions of Rock were right.

I’ll take the night to reread the cases of Frog/Fred so I can fully get what both of you are trying to say.

[ItalianoVD]

Well that wasn’t surprising, I figured it’d be me or Redados to get killed. Rocknil is a little surprising.

I’ve done my reading though. I’ve actually read 759 many times over and it’s still confusing to follow.

@Frederick: So are you saying you initially scumread Frogster for his obsession over what people thought of the nightkill and then 640 solidified your scumread or vice versa?

[ItalianoVD]

I'm the town tracker, both of my reports are dead. I suggest not voting if you're town because with three to eliminate it gives the mafia the chance to quick hammer.

If this is true then Frogster is the only one I believe I can trust. Everyone else gets the heisman.

[ItalianoVD]

I don't know any more.

Italiano / Fred?

What was this in response to?

[ItalianoVD]

Just skimming through Italiano's ISO, I can

feel

he's far more engaged in the game than the other two.

This post worries me though for its blatant defense of Fred:

Spoiler:

I’ve gone back over Day 1 and I’m still not seeing the early universal scumread of Frederick. I will admit as the Day went on he appeared more nonchalant and apathetic, but I’ve seen townies play and act this way. I’m still slightly townreading Frederick.

Another scumteam I do not find likely would be Fredrick and Frogsterking. I don't think that interaction earlier today looks fake.
Perhaps the scumteam is (Frogster, rocknil)? I am not sure.

You initially scumread Frederick and you don’t now. What happened or what did he do that has made you think otherwise? Or was it something someone said?

.
I guess I'm curious what everyone else has to say about the night kill?

I think Mush was killed to try and frame Frederick. I don’t know, that’s what it seems like to me. The other possibility is that Frederick did want Mush to die. I don’t see it because it seems too obvious, but I guess it’s something that wouldn’t be smart for me to overlook.

I am still townreading Italiano and I still townread you, so I am thinking we can try to find the scumteam in the remaining pool of four players based on how they have interacted. I do not think rocknil is scum with Fredrick because there is no need to open up the day with a vote on his scumbuddy. I also do not like how rocknil chose to ignore my vote on him.

Are you saying you still think rocknil is scum? Just not with Frederick?

In Day 1, I pushed hard for shellyc. I thought there was something tangible there but I was wrong. I don't blame you for scumreading me. But you are wrong. I am now going over the thread to find the scum team. I have this feeling that I've missed something.
Hey, I know shelly being townie threw me off, so going back through makes sense, unless of course you’re just doing it because you know that’s what town would do.

That

was

earlier. The gamestate has changed since then.

[ItalianoVD]

Well that wasn’t surprising, I figured it’d be me or Redados to get killed. Rocknil is a little surprising.

I’ve done my reading though. I’ve actually read 759 many times over and it’s still confusing to follow.

@Frederick: So are you saying you initially scumread Frogster for his obsession over what people thought of the nightkill and then 640 solidified your scumread or vice versa?

Actually, while that was what I was saying, I misremembered. I actually scumread Frogsterking for not seeming to attempt to solve the game, then 640 made me more suspicious. The rest of what I recounted was more recent and so I doubt I misremembered anything else.

I find it strange not to remember why you scumread somebody. Like it wasn’t a real scumread to begin with.

[ItalianoVD]

Well that wasn’t surprising, I figured it’d be me or Redados to get killed. Rocknil is a little surprising.

I’ve done my reading though. I’ve actually read 759 many times over and it’s still confusing to follow.

@Frederick: So are you saying you initially scumread Frogster for his obsession over what people thought of the nightkill and then 640 solidified your scumread or vice versa?

Actually, while that was what I was saying, I misremembered. I actually scumread Frogsterking for not seeming to attempt to solve the game, then 640 made me more suspicious. The rest of what I recounted was more recent and so I doubt I misremembered anything else.

I find it strange not to remember why you scumread somebody. Like it wasn’t a real scumread to begin with.

He already said earlier he has memory issues.

I thought that’s why he was keeping notes.

[ItalianoVD]

Fred are you going to continue to question the unCC'd power role or are you going to do something useful?

Are you?

[ItalianoVD]

I have more experience with NKA, is anyone here amateur, pro or otherwise experienced in VCA?

Pretty experienced. My vca is trash. I’ve been wrong both times (shellyc, rocknil), so if we go by vca, I don’t look too good. I’ll try to see what’s happening elsewhere, but I wouldn’t have the moral authority to make a case.

[ItalianoVD]

Although I didn’t know it was called vca until I got on here. We just didn’t call it that where I’ve played.

[ItalianoVD]

I have more experience with NKA, is anyone here amateur, pro or otherwise experienced in VCA?

Pretty experienced. My vca is trash. I’ve been wrong both times (shellyc, rocknil), so if we go by vca, I don’t look too good. I’ll try to see what’s happening elsewhere, but I wouldn’t have the moral authority to make a case.

Oh okay. What about your opinion on the Lavar slot now that you've seen the flips from yesterday?

Lavar is like me, his vote count is much to be desired. But the thing I’m still trying to figure out is why Lavar has been so adamant in townreading me. After doing his iso early on when he replaced in 371 he gave his reasons for townreading multiple people. He mentioned it was really gut reads, which is cool, I respect that, but in 562 563 564 632 & 688 it seems like he’s trying too hard to townread me and I never like being townread that strongly.

Also, for me I’m a little suspicious of the Redados N1 reveal that he alluded to in 555 simply because of 630. If Redados used his ability on you N1 like you said he did then why would you throw shade out there like that? I’m not liking it.

[ItalianoVD]

Sorry, I'm not really sure. I'll try to get back to you later.

So you didn’t have any type of semi read on the slot?

[ItalianoVD]

I’ve read the past few pages and I think at this point we should all list our scumteam.

Frederick already stated his and I don’t blame him for thinking that even though it’s only halfway true.

My scumteam is Lavar and Casey, however, I’ve been wrong on both days so far (shelly / rocknil) so I’m not real confident about placing a vote down unplanned or without logic. I would like to hear from Frogster.

At that point I will make my decision and if the consensus ends up being me, there’s nothing I can do, but it’d be game over at that point.

[ItalianoVD]

Awake again!

Fred are you going to continue to question the unCC'd power role or are you going to do something useful?

Are you?

No. Is there some reason I should be?

Just pointing out how you are pushing Frederick to do something you are not doing yourself.

I’ve read the past few pages and I think at this point we should all list our scumteam.

Frederick already stated his and I don’t blame him for thinking that even though it’s only halfway true.

My scumteam is Lavar and Casey, however, I’ve been wrong on both days so far (shelly / rocknil) so I’m not real confident about placing a vote down unplanned or without logic. I would like to hear from Frogster.

At that point I will make my decision and if the consensus ends up being me, there’s nothing I can do, but it’d be game over at that point.

"Frederick already stated his and I don’t blame him for thinking that even though it’s only halfway true."

How would you know that it is only halfway true?

Ahh I see how that reads weird. So if I’m town and I scumread Lavar then a potential scumteam of he and I would not be right on my part and only true on his part. I worded it odd, but that was my sentiment.

I’ve read the past few pages and I think at this point we should all list our scumteam.

Frederick already stated his and I don’t blame him for thinking that even though it’s only halfway true.

My scumteam is Lavar and Casey, however, I’ve been wrong on both days so far (shelly / rocknil) so I’m not real confident about placing a vote down unplanned or without logic. I would like to hear from Frogster.

At that point I will make my decision and if the consensus ends up being me, there’s nothing I can do, but it’d be game over at that point.

What about Frederick?

Well yeah, Frederick already listed his scumteam.

I have no read on Italiano but at this point I think I might cross my fingers and just hope he's town the same way I hope you are town.

I've also noticed that Redados N2 target hasn't come forward yet. From this comment I assume it's Italiano.

Nope, not me.

[ItalianoVD]

Aight sorry, let me try it again. You stated that you think the scumteam is Lavar and I. I stated that according to what you said, your theory is only halfway true because I am town.

[ItalianoVD]

If that was what you meant, why did you phrase it "if I'm town" though?

It was supposed to read like a scenario.

[ItalianoVD]

In post 951, ItalianoVD wrote the following:

"Frederick already stated his and I don’t blame him for thinking that even though it’s only halfway true."

How would you know if LavarManos was scum though?

I don’t know for sure, but it’s the same thing: given the scenario, that’s how I was responding; like it was from your point of view.

[ItalianoVD]

Awake again!

Fred are you going to continue to question the unCC'd power role or are you going to do something useful?

Are you?

No. Is there some reason I should be?

Just pointing out how you are pushing Frederick to do something you are not doing yourself.

I am literally not doing that.

You asked him if he’s going to do something useful. I asked you if you going to do something useful. I wasn’t saying are you going to stop questioning the power role.

I just looked back at my ISO and yeah I have zero clue what you're talking about.

I wasn’t talking overall, I was only talking about today.

[ItalianoVD]

Italiano can you explain your blatant defense of Fred in #864?

Fred can you explain why your posts to Italiano in #863 look like they're trying to push Italiano off your back?

Lavar can you do something please? We have 3 days left and we really need you to focus.

Yeah, I thought he was town and I didn’t see why he was being universally scumread, so I was really trying to understand what others were seeing because I didn’t see it. If I townread someone I will try to protect them as best I can.

[ItalianoVD]

Fred & Italiano how do you reconcile the quote above being from maf?? Coached by his partner to active lurk and say self-incriminating things??

By quote above I mean #976.

What are you asking? If Lavar was coached to say what he said? That doesn’t make sense.

[ItalianoVD]

Should have bobbed instead of weaved @Frog.

I had fun and learned a lot. Come on why so scared?

VOTE: ItalianoVD

[ItalianoVD]

Wow, I thought this day would’ve been over. I guess I should unvote myself.

[ItalianoVD]

I know. Was a joke.

[ItalianoVD]

I had an extreme amount of fun this game. I don’t like playing scum at all but the dynamic of the playerlist was very fun and I really liked my teammates. You’ll see from the mafia thread that we kinda had Frogster and Redados pegged as the pr’s, but we made a mistake imo on the night 2 kill. As as I said in the dead thread I believe we could have won with both scum intact had we gone for Frogster instead of Redados.

[ItalianoVD]

Here's a quote from MagikHorse in the Dead Thread: "My secret? Just forget your partner's alignment and play naturally."

I actually think that’s a great way to play scum as we saw in this game. The distancing between me and Magik set the tone for endgame. When that’s faked, it’s easy to show through. I think I can speak for both of us when I say our reactions were genuine.

Lol, at times, even though I knew the alignment of both Magik and I, I actually felt like I was town trying to defend myself against scum.

[ItalianoVD]

I hate deceiving and lying so my play as scum is always to try to be as honest as possible. I try not to say “player X is scum”, but “player X is acting scummy and in my lynch pool” I feel extremely bad doing this and the main reason why I don’t like playing scum. When I said “If I’m town” I was a subconsciously stretching the truth as much as possible without actually lying, it was Fred who caught it. When Frogster did his analysis of the night kill in 732 and he pointed to me as the possible killer of Mush the only thing I said was his analysis was wrong; I was alluding to the

reason

he said I killed Mush; it actually wasn’t the reason and that’s why I didn’t say “I’m not scum”, but “Your analysis is wrong.”

Lol, now that I’ve given up the tells I’ll always be caught as scum now, especially if I have any of you in the playerlist.