Mini Normal 2159 | Cinder Block Mafia | Game Over!

[Looker]

UNVOTE:
reading

[Looker]

Helpful scumplay is still scumplay
Why do you think it’s worth keeping active scum alive?

Hello, Gamma; I'm excited to play with you.

Walter goes to a stand-up comedy show: Okay but why is he making a joke, what is the point of this?

Are you disappointed with your role pm?

Spoiler:

(PEDIT: re #638)

The reasoning should be correct regardless of my alignment. If you think there's a mistake, please point it out so that I can re-evaluate my reasoning.

I agree that it points towards me as town, but that's hardly a reason not to mention it in thread! Of course, it's harder to be objective about something when it points to you as town, so it's possible I have some confirmation bias here (i.e. "this correctly predicts me as town, so it's more likely to be correct"), in which case it's especially important that you point out any flaws in my reasoning! But "this reasoning benefits CFJ and CFJ is making it" is not a reason to ignore it or consider it invalid.

I think the flaw is the wifom you've attached to it and looking at it from our point of view.

First, I have seen scum wagons sit around in a similar gamestate before. It's not nearly as common as town wagons but this doesn't entirely mean you're town.

Looking in from my point of view I see a player indirectly explaining why they must be town based on the gamestate. One way I can see it is this player is scum and for whatever reason (unhelpful scum mates, avoiding defending of scum mates, etc) has decided to defend himself but in a way that on face value doesn't appear to be a self defense. If someone else pointed it out it would appear more towny but the fact that it was you indirectly defending yourself adds wifom.

Of course I could also see it as town simply making an observation which would allow someone else come to the conclusion that it could point to them being town.

I see all of this as pointless since cfj isn't a wagon you entertained at it's height. Pushing this angle now is counterintuitive.

cfj is one of my scumreads... and this was just an observation I made that supports that

Is the sudden deflation of his wagon suspicious?

Spoiler:

UNVOTE:
reading

Weird opening imo. This is pure gut but more than a bit scummy to me

By the way UNVOTE: a fresh start

huh?

Hello, geraintm; I'm excited to play with you again as well.

UNVOTE:
reading

Weird opening imo. This is pure gut but more than a bit scummy to me

huh?

The unvote didn't alert me. The uptight entrance of "reading" did. The tone to me was almost like reading the thread was a burden to them.

• Depending on the playerlist, reading typically is a burden.
  
• MS players use ego posts so we can find games without having to search for them

Strange entrance by looker but that is one post.
I love reading.
655, is just really weird in that it sorta shows like cfj said a lack of reading/ disengagement.

Strange in what way? That it was an ego post?

Bah you were the leading wagon until Taylor changed her vote. I missed it initially. Now there are 3 wagons at 3 votes.

Is the evaporation of CFJ's wagon suspicious to you?

Spoiler:

There are three things I wanted to say this afternoon.

#1

I realized I have a feeling that Raya is scum, however, I believe the feeling is caused by the implicit bias of her current avatar which is a wolf, and because of the mafia-like game Werewolves I associate wolf with scum. I view this feeling as NAI and the behavior of the Raya slot as a whole as null because I haven't seen her do anything which would imply to me her alignment is one way or the other.

#2:

In the posts below, I believe I'm beginning to understand what geraintm is referring to. If I'm correct, geraintm is saying he doesn't like it when I or others post an opinion without an explanation or a call to action because it enables scum to formulate their plan ahead of time.

My Taylor vote was a joke but now it’s serious

You have no explanation, but the vote is serious?
This is why you are so infuriating

By the way guys at this point in time I have three serious scum reads and I'll disclose them another time. I also have one other very weak town read I'll ISO now.

I wish people would stop being so cryptic. If you have an opinion then say, don't save them for later when they can be tailored to the game state. That is just potentially scummy...

This leads me to believe that, because of his experience and his choices to play in the way that he does, as well as the meta information quoted in #3 of this post, geraintm is an extremely proactive, defensive and risk averse player who prefers to remain a null slot during the course of the game, and because he has played this way consistently this game I'm reading him as null unless he changes his behavior.

#3

In the same spirit of being proactive and risk averse I'll point out a reason why I believe CFJ is scum ahead of time even though there's no real impetus for me to do so.

In the same post written about geraintm which was helpful in understanding his motivation there's something extremely odd I noticed:

Did you know? part 1: geraintm's vote on Not_Mafia was his RVS vote (#29). It hasn't changed since.

Did you know? part 2: Although the fact in the previous paragraph would be a horrible scumtell coming from almost anyone, it is

not

a scumtell coming from geraintm. In Mini Normal 2153 (where geraintm was VT), geraintm made an RVS vote in that game's #62, and didn't unvote or place another vote until that game's #1377, almost 11 votecounts into that game's day 2 (despite having moderate scumreads elsewhere in many parts of day 1). So I think any tells on geraintm based on bizarre voting behaviour are invalid. (geraintm sometimes moves his vote sooner, but only upon having a very strong read, which he normally doesn't D1.)

day 1 I am nothing but shade. you know it will take a lot on day 1 for me to actually vote someone.

Did you know? part 3: geraintm seems to use the same RVS gimmick every game. This might produce interesting scumhunting information if this fact were generally known (because posting at the critical post count is, in effect, volunteering to be D1 Hated when geraintm is playing). However, I think it's highly likely that the playerlist as a whole was unaware of geraintm's tendency to breadcrumb the algorithm by which he'll subsequently cast his first vote, meaning that it's effectively random (weighted by posting frequency) and provably unmanipulatable (possibly even to the extent of bypassing the rules on provable randomness?). Perhaps if geraintm outright stated "I will vote for the person who posts #22 [or whatever] for the entirety of day 1, check my meta, I do this every game", the gimmick would produce more interesting information for scumhunting purposes; as it is, it's basically just a method of playing that's anti-town, but repeated so consistently that it isn't a scumtell for geraintm in particular.

VOTE: Tayl0r Swift

Did you see anything odd?

I did: the subject of the post, the player geraintm, is not matched with the element that increases the win condition of the game we are playing; the vote at the end, which is on a different player Tayl0r. This seems odd because normally when we vote a player the subject of the post is in some way attached to that player.

It appears as though CFJ is using a specific lying strategy: providing too much information.

Do you feel scum have to work harder than town to be persuasive?

Spoiler:

Did you know? part 1: geraintm's vote on Not_Mafia was his RVS vote (#29). It hasn't changed since.

Did you know? part 2: Although the fact in the previous paragraph would be a horrible scumtell coming from almost anyone, it is

not

a scumtell coming from geraintm. In Mini Normal 2153 (where geraintm was VT), geraintm made an RVS vote in that game's #62, and didn't unvote or place another vote until that game's #1377, almost 11 votecounts into that game's day 2 (despite having moderate scumreads elsewhere in many parts of day 1). So I think any tells on geraintm based on bizarre voting behaviour are invalid. (geraintm sometimes moves his vote sooner, but only upon having a very strong read, which he normally doesn't D1.)

day 1 I am nothing but shade. you know it will take a lot on day 1 for me to actually vote someone.

Did you know? part 3: geraintm seems to use the same RVS gimmick every game. This might produce interesting scumhunting information if this fact were generally known (because posting at the critical post count is, in effect, volunteering to be D1 Hated when geraintm is playing). However, I think it's highly likely that the playerlist as a whole was unaware of geraintm's tendency to breadcrumb the algorithm by which he'll subsequently cast his first vote, meaning that it's effectively random (weighted by posting frequency) and provably unmanipulatable (possibly even to the extent of bypassing the rules on provable randomness?). Perhaps if geraintm outright stated "I will vote for the person who posts #22 [or whatever] for the entirety of day 1, check my meta, I do this every game", the gimmick would produce more interesting information for scumhunting purposes; as it is, it's basically just a method of playing that's anti-town, but repeated so consistently that it isn't a scumtell for geraintm in particular.

VOTE: Tayl0r Swift

Did you see anything odd?

I did: the subject of the post, the player geraintm, is not matched with the element that increases the win condition of the game we are playing; the vote at the end, which is on a different player Tayl0r. This seems odd because normally when we vote a player the subject of the post is in some way attached to that player.

It was related. My previous vote was on geraintm, but my review of geraintm's meta made me think that my scumread on geraintm was based on behaviour that wasn't scummy when coming from geraintm, so I unvoted him (moving my vote to my next-strongest scumread, because in the early game it's generally always a good idea to have a vote out). Perhaps I should have used an explicit unvote tag to make things clearer.

Are you mad at me?

VOTE: callforjudgement

[Looker]

Every second spent reading mafia is a burden to me.

Don’t play mafia then

But we don't have to read to play. You could really just vote if you wanted.

A bit, but the fact you unvoted then put down reading. I probably would have flipped those two around.
As I also noted it was only one post of yours.
Has anything popped out to you in your reading so far?
Also, Looker, in an earlier post I noted the lack of a big wagon, now that has changed since I made it but it reminded me of bugspray D1. Do you think that could be the case here?

• So if I would have put down "reading" and then "unvote", you would've been fine? It doesn't make sense to me.
  
• Reading is boring and I fall asleep. Is there anything particular I should focus on?
  
• I don't know what you're referring to when you say bugspray.

Spoiler:

UNVOTE:
reading

Weird opening imo. This is pure gut but more than a bit scummy to me

Seemed like a pretty standard opening to me

No meta? I do that in all the games I replace in.

In case this is not clear, I have finished reading the game.

Why was this relevant? Did someone accuse you of not reading?

Nope. You're newbtown from my understanding. The first part I said //could// be ready as you forming a case out of nothing. What I really think it is is newbtown trying to find something to comment on. It's also easy to understand why newbtown would join an opportunistic wagon.

I'm struggling to find something to comment on. Where should I focus?

@callforjudgment:

Spoiler:

You are right, at the time I made my comment I thought you were still the leading wagon because I initially missed Taylor and RCEnigma jumping off of you. My apologies on that; with that said: There were two changes to the game state that your wagon was involved in.

(1) Nosferatu said the game was boring and for someone to do something. That’s when the counterwagon to your wagon was created (Banana)
(2) You said you didn’t like the game state and wanted something done about it. That’s when your wagon gets dissolved. (Walter / myself)

You

were

the leading wagon and were at L-2.

1) RCEnigma started it
2) Nosferatu jumped on
3) SJReaver jumped on
4) I jumped on
5) Taylor jumped on

Then 573 happened, and Banana became the counterwagon. In 631 you said you didn’t like the gamestate and wanted something to be done about it. At the time of that post you were still the leading wagon. Then your wagon dissolved and went back to Walter and then to myself.

There is a problem with all this and the #1 problem is that you are pretty universally scumread. Frogsterking scumreads your slot, RCEnigma scumreads your slot, Taylor scumreads your slot, Raya scumreads your slot and yet none of them are voting for you.

If you are scum:

then I’d surmise your two partners are in that group or one is in that group and the other has distanced themselves from you completely.

If you are town:

then you’d be an easy target for scum to latch onto given your universal scumread, which is why I find it hard to believe that your wagon would dissolve if it was scum driven.

This makes the most sense to me.

[Looker]

• I'm surprised there's not more consolidation of wagons before deadline.

---

VOTE: geraintm

If geraintm is scum, what purpose do you feel his vote on Not_Mafia serves? Do you feel it's a vanity? Is it distancing? Do you feel it's so that he doesn't have to jump on the bigger Italiano wagon?

[Looker]

Spoiler:

• I'm surprised there's not more consolidation of wagons before deadline.

---

VOTE: geraintm

If geraintm is scum, what purpose do you feel his vote on Not_Mafia serves? Do you feel it's a vanity? Is it distancing? Do you feel it's so that he doesn't have to jump on the bigger Italiano wagon?

Check the meta CFJ did, I believe geraintm always votes semi-randomly D1.

That's disappointing.

Alright, good point CFJ.
Although that would be you or Gerain.
Would also be fine with nm too just due to helpfulness.
Not going to vote for italiano, ts,or frog this day.
You know what, I would like something more from nm.
VOTE: NM

Was this post from a phone?

---

• The only player remaining to consolidate is Tayl0r Swift.
  • When asked to consolidate, she instead proposes to start a wagon from scratch. (It's actually kind of a solicitation, as if she wants someone else to do it for her)
  • Calls me lurky, but ignores the players actually requiring prods

[Looker]

VOTE: shelly

Okay let's end of day gogo between

geraintm

or

Banana/shelly

my first pick is shelly and I'll switch back to geraintm if necessary.

VOTE: geraintm

---

Spoiler:

ItalianoVD(2)

~ RCEnigma(62), shellyc

WaltertheDunce10(5)

~ Raya36(55), Not_Mafia, callforjudgement, Nosferatu, geraintm

geraintm(2)

~ Gamma Emerald, Looker

shellyc(4)

~ Tayl0r Swift, Frogsterking, ItalianoVD, WaltertheDunce10

Not Voting (0):
With 13 alive it takes 7 to eliminate.

Day 1 deadline is in (expired on 2020-09-06 11:18:30)

[Looker]

• Gamma Emerald asked for a votecount and here it is; so who are you going to vote?

---

• Why did CFJ ask me to move my vote but not RCEnigma? Why are players ignoring RCEnigma?

[Looker]

I feel like there's a pretty good chance scum is between cfj or Walter though

So you're saying both scum bussed shelly?

Spoiler:

I will hammer whichever wagon hits E-1 first as soon as it hits E-1 no questions asked. Claims out if ya got em.

this post never comes from town

ur so cracked

honestly ill switch to shellyc

VOTE: shellyc

i town read this slot but i really don't like who's on the walter wagon with me

I'm tempted to town read Nosferatu for the end of day switch here.

I agreee sorta also. Iam trying to figure out why scum team would not stall out the game state again. Which makes me think nos is town for that. Although I'm not sure RCE using the same reasons is a good one.

Do you think a stall would be inconspicuous if they were already bussing? I don't know how effective jumping off of shelly last minute would be.

[Looker]

• Who did ItalianoVD target N1?

---

ok but do you know each other's roles? because a scum-town neighborhood is definitely a thing

Scum!Walter would have likely NKed the FN. Nobody would know for sure if it was luck or if Walter knew.

UNVOTE:

This doesn't make sense to me. How can you assume that Italiano targeted Walter?

But RC, why would scum shoot offwagon if they weren't on the Shelly wagon? Well silly little townie, cuz mafia.

WIFOM, but intriguing.

---

• How many scum does Italiano think were onwagon vs off?

VOTE: WaltertheDunce10

[Looker]

Spoiler:

At this point it's very unlikely that Italiano is scum; a Friendly Neighbour claim is hard to substantiate as scum (you have to keep claiming to target your buddies and/or the nightkill), and easy to prove as town (that's literally what the role does, proving itself as town). It would be helpful to verify that the claim has actually been substantiated before day ends, though, otherwise it'll lead us to be paranoid into future days.

If scum knew that Italiano was a Friendly Neighbour, that would make him an obvious nightkill choice. So it's also useful to know whether Walter knew Italiano was a Friendly Neighbour prior to the end of Night 1; if he did, that somewhat reduces the chance that Walter is scum.

@Tayl0r: mods (and playerlists!) differ on how much utility a T/S neighbourhood gives to town and/or scum. Some mods think that such a neighbourhood helps town (you can quiz your neighbour in the PT, figure out they're scum, and sometimes even figure out their buddies by the way they talk over the game with you); I once caught 2 out of 3 members of a scumteam because I was in a neighbourhood with one of them. But recently, players have had a tendency to assume that neighbourhoods are T/T, so some mods/reviewers will balance a T/S neighbourhood as though it helps scum and put in extra town power to compensate.

This is a good post. I definitely agree we should have the receiver of the FN message claim by the end of the day so we can confirm italiano is town. And it's also important to know if Walter knew about Italiano being the FN.

What motivated your assumption that Walter knew beforehand? Were you saying that Italiano just told him outright?

Spoiler:

• Who did ItalianoVD target N1?

---

ok but do you know each other's roles? because a scum-town neighborhood is definitely a thing

Scum!Walter would have likely NKed the FN. Nobody would know for sure if it was luck or if Walter knew.

UNVOTE:

This doesn't make sense to me. How can you assume that Italiano targeted Walter?

This is on the assumption that Italiano told Walter (since he townread him so strongly). Waiting in confirmation of this.

Taking into consideration Italiano's age, I'm not seeing that as an expected practical play. Especially on D1. I feel like if Italiano was going to tell anybody, he would've told the main thread when they were about to flip him.

Player List:
ItalianoVD claims hood
callforjudgement claims no hood
Gamma Emerald
Looker
geraintm
Raya36
Frogsterking
Nosferatu
RCEnigma
Tayl0r Swift
WaltertheDunce10 claims hood

I'm not in a hood or PT as of right now.

[Looker]

• I'm not seeing the benefit of these pseudo-claims. RCE lied, Tayl0r's hinting, and Italiano still hasn't said who he targeted. None of this is trustworthy.

---

Going on VC's alone I'd probably go CFJ today. For CFJ to be town AND have banana NOT position themselves on wagon would require an sjreaver + nos team.

Is this statement why Nosferatu suddenly voted me with no reason?

---

• I'm finding it difficult to trust the subjective nature of Tayl0r's posts. Especially since her overconfidence in RCE has fell through. I don't see how geraintm's posts have "towntold". And softclaims don't equal confirmation for me.
  
• Flavor is hilarious. More butter.
  
• Can anyone interpret Nosferatu's readslist and explain to me why he's voting me over Raya? (Or voting me at all)

[Looker]

I'm finding it difficult to trust the subjective nature of Tayl0r's posts. Especially since her overconfidence in RCE has fell through.

Could you clarify the second sentence here? I don't understand what you mean.

Immediate trust of an unconfirmed claim is suspicious to me. She immediately trusted RCE. There was also the part where she called me lurky before despite RCE requiring prods. I don't fully understand their relationship yet.

Also noting that I don't like Looker putting doubt on the claims (especially Taylor)

What do you gain from this overdefense of Tayl0r? What do you lose from me being appropriately suspicious of roles that aren't confirmed?

Oh RC lied? And? Worst case, nothing happens it does nothing to change how town responds to if they have a hood or not. Best case scum panic into claiming a hood. I did realize afterwards that if Walter is scum then the gambit was useless but it's worth playing out anyway.

Worst case is you're L-2 the following page (L-1 pending my vote)

Spoiler:

UNVOTE:
reading

Weird opening imo. This is pure gut but more than a bit scummy to me

does this look like a distancing play from inexperienced scum to anyone?

it was a weird as anything post...basically the weirdest thing anyone did day 1 that I saw and why I voted for them. I buy the inexperienced scum label, they seemed to flake from the game as soon as they thought they were going to get lynched.

How does that reflect on WaltertheDunce10 to you? Since he did the same thing.

---

• One way to interpret Shelly's Post 649 is "a distancing play from inexperienced scum", another is her trying to detract from the leading wagons of WaltertheDunce10 and callforjudgement.

VOTE: Looker

[Looker]

• Where is WaltertheDunce10?

---

Spoiler:

Also noting that I don't like Looker putting doubt on the claims (especially Taylor)

What do you gain from this overdefense of Tayl0r? What do you lose from me being appropriately suspicious of roles that aren't confirmed?



VOTE: Looker

How is that an over defense of Taylor? I think the claim is genuine and I don't like the shade you're putting on it. Yes we should confirm the claims by the end of the day. But putting shade on them right now does no good.

That's not making sense to me. "confirm[ing] the claims by the end of the day" requires suspicion. Why would my suspicion upset you

---

• What I was asking geraintm: If you scumread shelly for calling my first post scummy, does her flipping scum reflect negatively on WaltertheDunce10 to you (seeing as he did the exact same thing)?
  
• I didn't move my vote when CFJ requested because I didn't invest enough in this game to feel confident about the decision. It was more advantageous for me to sort you people who've been playing this for a while.

[Looker]

• More investment will come to this game later.

---

Spoiler:

• Where is WaltertheDunce10?

---

How is that an over defense of Taylor? I think the claim is genuine and I don't like the shade you're putting on it. Yes we should confirm the claims by the end of the day. But putting shade on them right now does no good.

That's not making sense to me. "confirm[ing] the claims by the end of the day" requires suspicion. Why would my suspicion upset you

Suspicion is fine but you claimed to have suspicion on all of the claims and it read more like scum trying to gently push the claimed PRs before they become confirmed

CAN ANYONE READ THIS SENTENCE AND TELL ME WHAT THIS MEANS

Also, are we not going to concede that my suspicion was warranted? RCE false-claimed. Surely this must be obvious to more than just me.

I am here but am sick and then fell asleep for 12 hours. Have some work to do but I would be fine with cfj raya or looker.

This would be more believable if you added why

---

• Is Gamma really trying to call me out for being off-wagon when they were off-wagon as well? They said "where are the votes right now?" and then vanished - a coward's way out or scum's way out. Either way, I don't see them having a leg to stand on.
  • Also, does anyone know what "a whole crateful of yikes" is or how that correlates to scumminess? Thanks in advance.

[Looker]

V/LA over the weekend

(I finally have shit to do! )

---

• Gamma says I called myself scum, but I didn't. I offered an alternate interpretation of shelly's actions for Tayl0r Swift.
  
• Are the remaining scum Gamma and Frogsterking? Is this like a game show? Do I get a prize for guessing right?
  (Yeah, lol, an NK!)

VOTE: Frogsterking shelly, Italiano, and WaltertheDunce are the only people who have voted you. Could shelly have been distancing

[Looker]

who are you

[Looker]

And only one person is voting you - you don't seem to be a point of contention

[Looker]

But mostly, who are you and why should I care?

[Looker]

Is Frogsterking your scum PR or something? Am I hot or am I cold? There's reasons to push me for both.

[Looker]

Interesting. Begs for attention, then does nothing with it. Got it.

[Looker]

I'm pushing you mostly because a) my vote on Gamma isn't doing much any more, with the game stalling (the Gamma wagon produced some good content but is unlikely to generate more), and b) you seem really disconnected with what's going on in the game more generally. In particular, I'd expect the self-vote in #994 to be more likely to come from scum than town; it doesn't make any sense to do intentionally as either alignment, but it seems more likely that scum would do it by mistake (as they aren't normally as invested in any particular read as a typical townie is; scum are more likely to forget who they're suspicious of than townies are).

On a more general note, do you normally consider defending players to be scummy behaviour in general? (I'm trying to understand your read on Raya.)


PEDIT: It takes me a while to write posts. (And I've been receiving quite enough / too much attention recently, which is why I was surprised that you apparently hadn't noticed at all.)

• Ok. Your vote's a reaction test.
  
• Just because I don't think you're important doesn't mean I'm disconnected from the game.
  
• Self-votes are NAI.
  • Also, with as much formatting as there is in my posts, surely I would've read an unintended vote and corrected it.
  • Also, also, what's the difference between your and Nosferatu's reaction test votes and my own
• I don't care who anyone defends; it was the hypocrisy and expressed contradiction that I wanted to emphasize. That and I disagree that I should be accepting unconfirmed claims blindly.

I agree.
VOTE: CFJ

I agree
VOTE: RCEnigma

[Looker]

This reminds me: everyone has posted since #898. I'm wondering if we can learn anything about Italiano's Friendly Neighbour target from the fact that they haven't confirmed him yet. (In particular, I see no town motivation in refusing to / failing to confirm Italiano, whereas scum would obviously benefit from the uncertainty about Italiano's slot if his Friendly Neighbour action was on scum N1 and fails/is roleblocked N2. So I think the target in question is more likely than random to be scum.)

Like, there's no theory reason to fail to confirm a claimed Friendly Neighbour as town. You aren't giving away anything about their role because they've claimed it, and you aren't giving away anything about your role other than that you aren't Ascetic. So it doesn't meaningfully help scum with their rolefishing at all.

How did you rule out the option of an Italiano fakeclaim

I said maybe CFJ not yes. Really cfj because earlier I said that you were on my vote list and scum pool so my vote should not come as a surprise to you.
I agree with 1123.

In your opinion, were any of the claims worthwhile?

[Looker]

Spoiler:

who do you think is scum now raya? and why

Walter for the non-committal start and weak pushes such as this pushing the fake claim early game to be PR fishing.
RCE for the fakeclaim thing that drew out town PRs and had 0 benefit for town. He also seemed overdefensive on that topic.

I really need to read and get back into the game because I'm very detached right now

Are you saying that Walter's scum because he didn't push hard enough the thing that you're pushing?

Also I 100% agree that whoever got the FN message should either claim or be revealed by Italiano today and preferably not too late in the day. There is absolutely no reason for town to hold this info back.

I also am concerned about the Shelly wagon, I just haven't had the time to think too much into it.

What good does it do to hold it back? Claiming to receive the message doesn't make you a target. It doesn't make Italiano any more of a target. It doesn't out any extra info to scum outside of confirming Italiano. Claiming does take away any suspicion on Italiano and helps town in that way.

I think Italiano's lying. Two fakeclaims and a half-claim.

if theres only one neighborhood i find it to be exceptionally unlikely that its town-scum. if you're saying theres scum in you and walter, then it almost has to be you cfj.

Err what makes it unlikely to be town-scum?

Should we split the wagons between you and Raya? You said you weren't overly* concerned with being elim'd.

---

• I feel there's too much WIFOM for me to take any of this seriously.
  
• In what ways could someone 'check Italiano or Walter' out for a fakeclaim to fall apart?
  
• What does it mean to be "away from the action"? I'm confused as to what I'm supposed to be obsessing over.

[Looker]

Spoiler:

At this point it's very unlikely that Italiano is scum; a Friendly Neighbour claim is hard to substantiate as scum (you have to keep claiming to target your buddies and/or the nightkill), and easy to prove as town (that's literally what the role does, proving itself as town). It would be helpful to verify that the claim has actually been substantiated before day ends, though, otherwise it'll lead us to be paranoid into future days.

If scum knew that Italiano was a Friendly Neighbour, that would make him an obvious nightkill choice. So it's also useful to know whether Walter knew Italiano was a Friendly Neighbour prior to the end of Night 1; if he did, that somewhat reduces the chance that Walter is scum.

@Tayl0r: mods (and playerlists!) differ on how much utility a T/S neighbourhood gives to town and/or scum. Some mods think that such a neighbourhood helps town (you can quiz your neighbour in the PT, figure out they're scum, and sometimes even figure out their buddies by the way they talk over the game with you); I once caught 2 out of 3 members of a scumteam because I was in a neighbourhood with one of them. But recently, players have had a tendency to assume that neighbourhoods are T/T, so some mods/reviewers will balance a T/S neighbourhood as though it helps scum and put in extra town power to compensate.

This is a good post. I definitely agree we should have the receiver of the FN message claim by the end of the day so we can confirm italiano is town. And it's also important to know if Walter knew about Italiano being the FN.

I did not know about Italiano being the FN prior to N1.
I only knew it when he posted it in thread here.

At what point did he tell you the target of his role?

Spoiler:

Walter for the non-committal start and weak pushes such as this pushing the fake claim early game to be PR fishing.
RCE for the fakeclaim thing that drew out town PRs and had 0 benefit for town. He also seemed overdefensive on that topic.

I really need to read and get back into the game because I'm very detached right now

Are you saying that Walter's scum because he didn't push hard enough the thing that you're pushing?

Um no? I never said that at all.

Spoiler:

Also I 100% agree that whoever got the FN message should either claim or be revealed by Italiano today and preferably not too late in the day. There is absolutely no reason for town to hold this info back.

I also am concerned about the Shelly wagon, I just haven't had the time to think too much into it.

What good does it do to hold it back? Claiming to receive the message doesn't make you a target. It doesn't make Italiano any more of a target. It doesn't out any extra info to scum outside of confirming Italiano. Claiming does take away any suspicion on Italiano and helps town in that way.

I think Italiano's lying. Two fakeclaims and a half-claim.

I'm starting to think it's all a lie too. Although most likely a lie coming from town.

• Well then, can you clarify?
  • You said RCE was scum for PR fishing, but said Walter was probably scum for weak pushes and saying that fakeclaims were PR fishing.
• Why would the lie be more likely coming from town?
  saw Post 1216

Should we split the wagons between you and Raya? You said you weren't overly* concerned with being elim'd

Do what you do. Don't get caught being the guy asking to be on the wagon though. It's going to look worse when I flip.

I really don't care at this point. This really isn't even fun anymore.

Town has no reason to rely on Italiano being confirmed right now or not. Or even at all today.

If Italiano is FN then cool, he gets confirmed today and the day continues as normal. Let's say his target doesn't claim today, scum has to kill him tonight or he hits town tomorrow. It's not like he's in danger of being lynched even without the claim.

Italiano was a waste of time, you are a waste of time, this game is a waste of time. If losing shelly made scum want to troll, then fine, but I'm not going to entertain it. He should've claimed a long time ago, and his fictitious target should have, too.

Spoiler:

Town has no reason to rely on Italiano being confirmed right now or not. Or even at all today.

If Italiano is FN then cool, he gets confirmed today and the day continues as normal. Let's say his target doesn't claim today, scum has to kill him tonight or he hits town tomorrow. It's not like he's in danger of being lynched even without the claim.

coming back from overnight.
man this game is weird.

but rcenigma, what do you mean by "or he hits town tonight". there is no garuentee that the person he targets is town from my understanding of the role

What's the likelihood that RCE and Italiano have fakeclaimed their ways into a corner?

If it is a fakeclaim then why tell me in neighbor chat where he sent it too.
That would out his scumbuddy.

If you know you should be telling us. Italiano is hurting town and you holding back info is hurting town too.

Fuck no
I will let him or his target do it.
I won't answer for either of them.

I think I missed the bit where walter knew the target. walter - can you think of a god reason why he isn't telling us who he targeted?

CFJ again does weird meta analysis that I don't think adds anything to the game

agree with rayas post 1216

I don't like this vagueness with whether or not Walter knew the target or the role. I don't see a town purpose for this obfuscation.

I don’t like the doubt being thrown around the town right now and it’s so obvious that it’s being done by scum. We were on track to look at the information from the scumflip. I’m pretty sure that’s the direction we were going in today, but misdirection is a powerful tool.

hey, lets not just blame people concerned about your reluctance as derailing today. Rcenigma did a pretty good job too

Italiano's just one person - he can't decide which direction the town is going. All of this random bullshit is weird.

Spoiler:

Votecount 1.13

shellyc(5)

~ Tayl0r Swift(42), Frogsterking(46), ItalianoVD(68), WaltertheDunce10(73), geraintm(70)

WaltertheDunce10(4)

~ Raya36(57), Not_Mafia(25), callforjudgement(68), Nosferatu(83)

ItalianoVD(2)

~ RCEnigma(66), shellyc(70)

geraintm(2)

~ Gamma Emerald(80), Looker(55)


Not Voting (0):

With 13 alive it takes 7 to eliminate.

Day 1 deadline is in (expired on 2020-09-06 11:18:30)

MOD REMINDERS

• prodding Not_Mafia
  
• looking for a replacement for shellyc

Out of these I’d rather we come back to Geraint. I’d also be okay with Italiano, but Shelly and Walter are townreads (at least, I was townreading Banana)

Does scum waffle here with a partner being the leading wagon?

This is just another WIFOM argument.

Spoiler:

Votecount 1.FINAL

shellyc(7)

~ Tayl0r Swift(48), Frogsterking(47), ItalianoVD(69), WaltertheDunce10(75), Nosferatu(85), RCEnigma(67), geraintm(74)

-- HAMMER

WaltertheDunce10(3)

~ Raya36(60), Not_Mafia(29), callforjudgement(70)

geraintm(2)

~ Gamma Emerald(82), Looker(56)

ItalianoVD(1)

~ shellyc(70)


Not Voting (0):

With 13 alive it takes 7 to eliminate.

Day 1 deadline is in (expired on 2020-09-06 11:18:30)

Of the 4 remaining offwagon slots, coming into the day I had sjreaver/looker as the most likely town in that grouping. But lookers reasoning and timing on gerain is a lot less natural than gammas in general + a couple of town indicators in their iso puts gamma up there for now.

Looker has been on a downward trajectory since repping in but I don't know if that's necessarily scummy or if it's just him wanting to be contrarian.

• What has Gamma done that's so town
  
• What's contrarian about me
  • I think you're bluffing.

Hmm,I've got a theory actually but I still really want Raya out of here before I dive into that rabbit hole.

But then you dove into the rabbit hole two posts later...

---

• There's nothing unorthodox about me.
  • Gamma's just trying to find a way to be off-wagon again.

VOTE: Looker

[Looker]

• Did RCE get shook up by his wagon and flake?

---

@looker

1st: I think thr chance of scum fake claiming isn't zero, but not high.

2nd: stop with the self votes. If you hate this game this much and as much as you say it does, take a mental break.

Looker is the sort of person I find infuriating to play with. Not mafia is another, I cannotnever get reads on their actions. There is a difference between not wanting them in the game and thinking they are scum though. Sometimes

• Ok.
  
• Who gives a fuck about your advice? Take your misrep elsewhere.
  
• Your infuriating idiocy is a personal problem - it has nothing to do with me.

Spoiler:

Um no? I never said that at all.


I'm starting to think it's all a lie too. Although most likely a lie coming from town.

• Well then, can you clarify?
  • You said RCE was scum for PR fishing, but said Walter was probably scum for weak pushes and saying that fakeclaims were PR fishing.

Those were two different situations though. I didn't think what Walter was pushing at the time was PR fishing and his pushed were weak. This is a completely difference instant.

I'm getting things confused. Which post numbers were for which instances?

Spoiler:

Walter, do you still have a scumread on Looker? Or do you now think me+Raya is the only possibility?

Are there any other slots you're considering? The only scumread-like thing you've expressed all D2 on anyone but me, Raya and Looker is a dislike of RCE's and Tayl0r's claims.

It might be looker, it seems he lurks more than the game I was with him in.
He is selfvoting. Why looker are you being such a weird pita.
Anti-town and possible scum.
Still think you /raya have a good chance of being a red .
I am not sure I exactly agree with 1275of Italianos.
I agree with gerain's assessment of raya and you.
I do have gamma as null and a poss if cfj flips green.
Nos I had a slight tr on earlier because of the vote but it has faded.

I think trying to find teams is a scum tactic - mafia know how to distance

• Didn't you lose that game for us by being a horrible IC? Maybe you're just demotivating. Or maybe you should meta more, because this isn't lurking.
  
• Do you feel self-voting is more anti-town than not voting at all? Clearly I disagree.

---

• ItalianoVD is a joke. There was no way I could anticipate there would be three fakeclaims D2 when I replaced in D1. He's trying to sound self-righteous for townie points, but he's still avoiding committing to an actual vote while waiting to see if we'll actually believe his fakeclaim bullshit. He's just waiting to see if Raya will get to L-1 so he can hammer.
  
• 1318 was unnecessary - I would laugh if I allowed [redacted] on the internet to actually influence me.
  
• "Looker" was the quickest thing I could type in middle school. Frogster asking the tough questions

[Looker]

Did RCE get shook up by his wagon and flake?

Got me super sleuth.

VOTE: RCEnigma don't have the want or need to wade through toxicity.

As if you were so active before, prodmaster. Get your own schtick.

Spoiler:

Who gives a fuck about your advice? Take your misrep elsewhere.

This response isn’t nice. My message to you (which was similar to the one which the mod said was over the line) was that if you are finding entering this thread this unpleasant then take a break and work out why. You say it is because you are finding multiple fake claims infuriating, and that may be the case, but if two different people in this game have both effectively said “you are being a bit much” and your response if to tell me to fuck off....well I would wish you looked at yourself rather than lashing out.

Spoiler:

I think trying to find teams is a scum tactic - mafia know how to distance

I like this though as a general rule. Def of two unflipped slots so early in the game. Day 2 and they will know everything we are trying to do to link people together and go all princess bride on us.

• For your clarity:
  
• You telling me how to play and where to vote is insulting. You're not superior to me - control yourself and I'll control me.
  
• I'm not emotionally compromised, lol. I'm an adult. If I find something not enjoyable, I know what to do.
  • Also, I never said I found
    anything
    infuriating - that was you. I said Italiano not claiming and RCE defending his not claiming were wastes of time. They are.
• Just because two people agree on something doesn't make it right. See the Holocaust and chattel slavery for reference.

---

• Tayl0r Swift claimed as well.

[Looker]

• Is Raya just really busy?

---

Spoiler:

For the excercise,
I would go with raya + CFJ. if CFJ is town then look at gamma/ looker/italiano.

The mention of Italiano here really worries me. If Walter is town, then his actions toDay indicate a strong townread on Italiano (why would you go along with letting him stay unconfirmed if you think there's a decent chance he could be scum, when you're in a position to intervene?). I can understand why Walter would defer to Italiano if he thinks Italiano is almost certainly town, but not otherwise.

Instead, Walter's basically just listed a list of "scumreads that are widely held", apparently without actually thinking about them. These reads don't seem particularly consistent with Walter's actions, but are easily explainable as a scum Walter wanting to keep his options open.

I have a very paranoid reason to suspect italiano may be fakeclaiming. I cannot reveal why at this time though.
You will also note that it is the least likeliest of people out there.
pedit I am with frog on the vig part.

If you want, we can remove you and Italiano from this game and have you play a secret ultra-mini with yourselves. I don't see what use either of you are being to anyone else.

i think cfj will be an extremely high-info lunch. but i think raya is by far the most likely to be scum, so id still prefer to lunch there. we can dine on cfj tomorrow.

hmm I read this as sort of scummy in setting one person up after the other.

I agree with removing Raya. VOTE: Raya36

---

• Meh.

[Looker]

• V A N I T Y W A G O N S
  
• Also, what's the likelihood that RCEnigma and Raya36 are
  both
  scum?

---

• Is Raya just really busy?

Yes

A response to Post 1327 would've been better.

Spoiler:

I believe Raya has maybe played with some other players here before?

Popping in quickly as I read in another game a bunch of dudes just vigged a nice old lady and want to rush the vote along, but don't think ive ever played with raya before.

I'm kinda stricken by how thr rcenigma wagon hasnt just gone away. Like, I dont think people are strongly reading them as scummy. I wanted to lynch them at the time, I havent yet worked out who id like to lynch more, but unsure why others are so sticky.

Why would you assume your reasoning is different from everyone else's? How willing would you be to eliminate Raya

[Looker]

How is Enigma on 3

[Looker]

• Is Nosferatu still here?

---

Those were two different situations though. I didn't think what Walter was pushing at the time was PR fishing and his pushed were weak. This is a completely difference instant.

I'm getting things confused. Which post numbers were for which instances?

So this is what Walter was pushing as PR fishing: 397. It was just a joke, not PR pushing at all. And I think it was scummy of Walter to push it as PR fishing.
This is RCE's fakeclaim that I'm scumreading: 192.

• Where was Walter pushing this?
  
• Post 192 is a Gamma Emerald post, not a fakeclaim from RCE

Spoiler:

Why would you assume your reasoning is different from everyone else's? How willing would you be to eliminate Raya

i usually take an odd look at games. the way i get reads on people is usually from a different direction to mostpeople

i did look at raya in my post 1037. they looked suspicious, but from a point of view of looking for them to be scum. i havent done a full depth dive at everything raya has posted yet. i wouldnt vote for them yet, i dont want to move my vote right now

How close to deadline are you willing to wait before the move? What are your opinions on Gamma Emerald's, ItalianoVD's, and Frogsterking's votes?

[Looker]

Is Nosferatu still here?

a little bored but still here

Does Raya's elimination taking this long further imply that she's scum to you?

Spoiler:

Those were two different situations though. I didn't think what Walter was pushing at the time was PR fishing and his pushed were weak. This is a completely difference instant.

I'm getting things confused. Which post numbers were for which instances?

So this is what Walter was pushing as PR fishing: 397. It was just a joke, not PR pushing at all. And I think it was scummy of Walter to push it as PR fishing.
This is RCE's fakeclaim that I'm scumreading: 192.

• Where was Walter pushing this?
  
• Post 192 is a Gamma Emerald post, not a fakeclaim from RCE

Oops 912

Looks like we both got confused. This was the fake claim he pushes. It was clearly fake and a joke because Nos just asked for someone to fake a guilty since they were bored. Then Walter quickly backs off when some of us disagree.
574

For Walter: 589, 599, 623

Just making sure. Yeah, I agree with Walter. RCE's move was suspicious, defense of it was suspicious. Also, Nos asking for it was in D1 whereas RCE fakeclaimed in D2 after a scumflip - the game being "boring" realistically no longer applied. Plus, I believe Walter more because he was on shellyc's wagon and you weren't.

Also I feel like it's getting close to time for Raya to claim.

you arent even on the wagon and it isnt at L-1....

I said something similar a few days ago. I didn't say claim, I just said that the day seems to be drifting towards their lynch and they should probably try and alter the course if they didn't want to get killed.

Don't think you hassled me over my post though :/

Is it Frogster fishing or do you think he actually intends to hammer

What do you think is going to happen over the course of the next 48 hours?

I might get put at L-1 with intent. I might not. I'm not claiming before that happens

Who are the off-wagon scumpartners giving you this confidence?

---

• CFJ's accusing me of vanity wagoning during shelly's lynch while vanity wagoning during Raya's lynch. He also ignores Gamma, who was also voting geraintm. 1469 is just a half-hearted self-reflection.
  
• Votecount 2.12 made me cry out loudly with a guffaw

[/list]

[Looker]

• Raya had better things to do.

---

VOTE: Raya

Don't @ me.

I feel the logical thing would be to eliminate RCEnigma today. VOTE: RCEnigma

lol Italiano he confirmed it
I agree with nos we launch rce for d3

Are you going to follow-up with this?

---

• CFJ is right - I picked geraintm over shelly D1
  • I had no idea who was scum.
• I wonder if CFJ would put this much effort into posts as either alignment. I'm willing to help him kill off RCE.
  
• There's a difference between survivalism/poor play and being scummy. I'm free to criticize either.

Among Us is taking up most of my time - it's mafiascum on steroids. The stupid comes at you twice as fast lol

[Looker]

• Will RCE get to live through this day despite yesterday's wagons?

---

Spoiler:

VOTE: CFJ
I am no longer asking. Answer my question. You are obstructing my ability to confirm a town slot as I see it. How does knowing what the FN result PM looks like help scum? I can make conclusions already but I want to be certain.

In addition,

Italiano

, do you have any modifier to your role? You don’t have to claim what it is, but knowing yes or no will help me determine whether I can piece together the situation.

The literal answer to your question is "no".

Please,

please

stop rolefishing. I didn't have a scumread on you before now, but I'm getting a pretty strong scumread now.

I have a question of my own: did you receive the same PM I did? (If you aren't sure at this point, then you didn't; if you did, it will be very obvious given the information I've disclosed so far.) This answer is highly important, because it will help me figure out why you are apparently acting in such a highly anti-town way.

But you didn't consider RCE's fakeclaim rolefishing? Or him asking who was in a hood?

---

• Who received Italiano's Friendly Neighbor letter?
  • Hopefully, it's someone unscummy.

[Looker]

• Poor RCE.

---

Looking back on italianos claim at classified.
I think it is very odd gamma has no reaction at all like she already knew that. But there is nothing there at all. It is very strange.

What reaction would you expect?

Spoiler:

Why would that prompt you to ask the questions you did, though? Tracking a player lets you see their target, but it doesn't tell you about other players with the same target; what made you reject the possibility that Italiano and someone else both targeted me?

Also, if you did decide that a non-Italiano Friendly Neighbour had targeted me, why push me to confirm that in thread? If they die N3 the information doesn't matter, and if they don't die N3 they'll be able to confirm themself to someone else. (Besides, they presumably confirmed themself to someone N1.)

Because my working theory means the other FN can’t do what you propose.

@Walter where did Italiano announce he full claimed?

Not answering this.
Will answer why you are scum in morning.

Now this is interesting.

I THOUGHT Italiano was odd night FN and Walter, my n2 track target, was even night FN. I get the feeling that isnt correct based off this response, in which case I think Walter’s chance to be scum rises a fair amount.

FYI tracked RCE N1, my thought process has been checking people somewhat visible but without claimed active powers (RCE posted the fake day vig which put him on my radar, and Walter was the neighbor of a PR so I thought maybe he might either be PR or have an action).

So Italiano sent a Friendly Neighbor message to Nosferatu (who confirmed) on N1, and then you tracked WaltertheDunce to Italiano on N2? Then, instead of claiming, Walter voted you? Is this correct?

---

• Did Italiano think I was trying to quicklynch RCE?

VOTE: callforjudgement

[Looker]

• Poor RCE.

---

@looker

Spoiler:

I tracked someone to you last night. It was not Italiano. As such I’m figuring it was someone else who is also FN.
Italiano, if you’re comfortable, I’d like if you could specify your full role, because I think the puzzle will snap into place with that information.

FYI I’m not revealing anything I wouldn’t reveal at the end of this process anyways.

I believe the you in this is CFJ.

So Italiano sent a Friendly Neighbor message to Nosferatu (who confirmed) on N1, and then Gamma tracked WaltertheDunce to callforjudgement on N2? Is there any reason to rule out a Nosferatu/callforjudgement scumteam?

Spoiler:

• Poor RCE.

---

Looking back on italianos claim at classified.
I think it is very odd gamma has no reaction at all like she already knew that. But there is nothing there at all. It is very strange.

What reaction would you expect?

Now this is interesting.

I THOUGHT Italiano was odd night FN and Walter, my n2 track target, was even night FN. I get the feeling that isnt correct based off this response, in which case I think Walter’s chance to be scum rises a fair amount.

FYI tracked RCE N1, my thought process has been checking people somewhat visible but without claimed active powers (RCE posted the fake day vig which put him on my radar, and Walter was the neighbor of a PR so I thought maybe he might either be PR or have an action).

So Italiano sent a Friendly Neighbor message to Nosferatu (who confirmed) on N1, and then you tracked WaltertheDunce to Italiano on N2? Then, instead of claiming, Walter voted you? Is this correct?

---

• Did Italiano think I was trying to quicklynch RCE?

VOTE: callforjudgement

What looker no I voted because gamma did not know italiano's claim. Which seemed off to me.
VOTE: unvote

So you voted him for not paying attention?

---

• That ItalianoVD thought scum would quickhammer RCE at L-3 but not Gamma Emerald at L-2 is curious to me.

[Looker]

I'm trying to follow all the streams of your logic here looker

think I want to do this VOTE: gamma

• That's a weird way to phrase basic thought
• I'm not comfortable with RCE lurking his way into the shadows (
  it's been five days
  ) VOTE: RCEnigma

@frogster you aren't voting anyone right now, you aren't pushing a lych, you just don't want gamma killed. you seem like you are trying switch the trolley to a different track

Frogster, RCEnigma, and WaltertheDunce are all non-voters

---

• Why does ItalianoVD think a Nosferatu/CFJ scumteam is so bizarre? And why wouldn't he just explain?

[Looker]

• Has Gamma given up?

---

• There's a difference between ItalianoVD disagreeing with me and him being extremely confident that I'm off-base. What I don't understand is why he would say "What on earth" if he's not extremely confident. I actually never even proposed a Nos/CFJ scumteam; I just asked if there were any reasoning to rule it out. Italiano's response is confusing to me.
  • I also don't know how Occam's Razor applies.

[Looker]

• I still don't know why RCEnigma was defending Gamma in Post 1237

---

• The Titus/RCE slot has been the hammer for 2/3 of the last wagons. And next to last on the remaining third.
  
• Titus vs Gamma could've been a bus for town cred
  
• if CFJ's POE has me as scum, it's wrong, so I no longer trust it. No offense.

VOTE: RCEnigma/Titus The fact that we didn't return to this after Raya is suspicious to me

[Looker]

wait, confirmed how? what did i miss?

[Looker]

goddamn it; you mean i actually have to

READ

this thing?!?

[Looker]

o wait, i did read that; it's some shit you're saying is confirmed but is only confirmed to you. i'm good with my vote for now.

[Looker]

if your concern was that the setup was townsided, i don't see why 9:4 wouldn't offset that

[Looker]

• I went skydiving today and passed my AFF Lvl 1 jump!

---

I am vanilla townie

I'm SJReaver/Vanilla Townie

---

• I don't mod or balance setups, so I'd like to know if we as a playerlist are confirming Titus as town right now.

[Looker]

So, tomorrow morning, I'm going to go through and re-evaluate possibilities with our confirmed town. Right now I can't remember which of you are in this game and which are in the other, but I'll prioritize this one more.

[Looker]

UNVOTE:

[Looker]

Is RCE/Titus conftown or nah? The only conftown I'm seeing right now is Walter. I'm vulnerable to accepting either 10:3 or 9:4; I really don't know the difference.

[Looker]

• I should've noticed when Gamma said it, but it's not really likely to follow up on leads in Among Us lol. The voting phase is so quick and the players think "[insert color here] is sus" is a case
  
• I have no idea the scumteam's intention for Gamma
  
• I think it's just Frogster. Which is unfortunate, because he's fun to play with and I want him to win.

VOTE: Frogsterking Maybe this is auto-win.

[Looker]

UNVOTE:
I'll be back in a bit, I have to actually read this thing some more

[Looker]

ill pass this hammer i will be mia for a lil bit

Patience, I guess?

sorry for not being more active today. I don't have any extra info and there are better players in the game than me who can work things out. im fairly sure this game is going to end in a few days with a forced win for us, no mater what I thought.
I have no objectionwith the plan as laid out

We can't move forward without your vote.

---

• I found the Frogsterking questions irrelevant, lol. I don't mean to be unfair, but we win.
  • And as far as not targeting "obvtown", I really want to eliminate Titus/RCE and then CFJ, but...I'm assuming that can be put on hold as we put the fate of the game in their hands lol.
• I'm trying to see if there's any benefit to CFJ no-killing tonight in order to have us eliminate geraintm tomorrow.

VOTE: Frogsterking is back to [insert cruel cinder block death here]-1

[Looker]

Frogsterking is cool, though. Very good player. Very fun.

[Looker]

• I don't know how to take Frogsterking's threat/ultimatum. He or CFJ can hammer, though.
  
• My paranoia tells me that CFJ is the last scum and he's bluffing for time.

[Looker]

• If I were Frogsterking, I would hammer geraintm before I was killed.
  
• I'm also surprised CFJ and Frogsterking are still refusing to vote. If you're as big-brained as you're implying, why not end the day? What am I missing?

---

I'm starting to seriously consider Looker might be the last scum.

Would it matter? This is a town auto-win. Why are you stalling? There's nothing you can do, Frogster - you lose. Vote already.

[Looker]

VOTE: geraintm

[Looker]

Ah. Sorry for not playing.