Newbie 2027 | Doggos | Town Win

[72offsuit]

VOTE: Spectorous

Evil spectres are known associates of mafia

[72offsuit]

Low effort game incoming from me. Effort gets you nowhere anyway.

[72offsuit]

VOTE: Shelly

Wagons r good. Herp derp.

[72offsuit]

Shelly is the most obvious newbie scum I have played with in a long long time. Posts like this ^.
Pure gold.

[72offsuit]

VC 1.3

Nikahang (1)

- Noraa

EchoVision (1)

- Frogsterking

Frogsterking (1)

- shellyc

shellyc (3)

- EchoVision, Sceptorus, 72offsuit

Not Voting (2)

- Nikahang, XyCyclone

With 9 unfortunate souls alive, you need 5 votes to eliminate.

shellyc is at E-2

Deadline:

(expired on 2020-09-08 12:00:00)

@JV:
Siriuis does not appear here as a voter, nor as a non-voter.

[72offsuit]

Too distracted by the doggos perhaps?

[72offsuit]

Shelly is the most obvious newbie scum I have played with in a long long time. Posts like this ^.
Pure gold.

Unfortunately, you are incorrect. I'll prove you wrong.

How will you "prove me wrong"?

[72offsuit]

Terrible reaction. You just went from -5 on my scum-radar to -10.

[72offsuit]

Shelly is the most obvious newbie scum I have played with in a long long time. Posts like this ^.
Pure gold.

Unfortunately, you are incorrect. I'll prove you wrong.

The fact you say I am "incorrect" rather than questioning if I am scum pushing you to get a miskick is pretty telling.

[72offsuit]

Choo choo

[72offsuit]

Shelly is the most obvious newbie scum I have played with in a long long time. Posts like this ^.
Pure gold.

Unfortunately, you are incorrect. I'll prove you wrong.

The fact you say I am "incorrect" rather than questioning if I am scum pushing you to get a miskick is pretty telling.

It speaks to a scum mindset - !scumShelly KNOWING I am town.

[72offsuit]

Hah, i think thats a first for me. Quoting my own post.

[72offsuit]

ACtually nvm I would have done that tons of times

[72offsuit]

Shelly is the most obvious newbie scum I have played with in a long long time. Posts like this ^.
Pure gold.

Unfortunately, you are incorrect. I'll prove you wrong.

What is this? Warlocking? "dont lynch them yet" implied that you TR me? What is the reasoning of your TR

In this post I outlined the possibility of sirius warlocking me. I asked them for the reasoning for their TR on me (as they said "dont lynch them yet.")

You have made a mistake, sir.

Shelly's tone just feels off to me.
Possibly the cheesiest scumtell is shelly's posts just feel really stilted and comma punctuation anal. Like trying not to put a letter wrong. Feels like scum being careful and calculating. I get that it may just be player posting style but I dont think so.

[72offsuit]

Happy cake day.

[72offsuit]

@JV

[72offsuit]

Shallow meta diving shelly, her tone is more serious as scum, which i think reflects her play here, whereas as town she is more informal relaxed and jokey.

[72offsuit]

Posts 70-78 were all 72offsuit's. I feel like posting that many times in a row shows that the poster needs people to agree with his ideas which seems to strike me as a scum move. I didn't really understand what Frogster was referring to as disadvantageous to the town. If it was the intent to hammer thing, I thought 72offsuit didn't contribute anything to that since he just kept saying shellyc was scum but didn't also declare intent to hammer.

Did u even care to look at my previous games to see if this theory is correct?

[72offsuit]

Wow I'm at E-2 all of a sudden! Amazing.

72offsuit's wagon vote does seem a little suspect to me but nothing much. "Low effort" is a thought that comes from scum more than town IMO.

Little suspect, but nothing much - classic scum hedging their bets.

[72offsuit]

I thought Echovision voting multiple times was a lil sus bc it seems like he's desperately trying to eliminate shelly. The reply shelly gave was a lil provocative soo idk what to feel there. I feel like it's too hard to be sure on anything rn tho cuz most people haven't said much.

Why would echo be desperate to kick shelly of all players and why would he show such 'desperation' if that was the case?

[72offsuit]

kk cool, i kinda share that thought process, so id put you in my early townbook for now

ScumSceptor basically said the same of a townie (billy)
in newbie 2020.

[72offsuit]

Noraa seems kind of townie, EchoVision doesn't really so far.

VOTE: EchoVision

How does Noraa seem townie?

[72offsuit]

Early thoughts:

Sceptorus - Asking people to talk is a townie trait, prompts Noraa to give their thoughts. I am feeling town here early on.
Noraa - #29 sheeps me, #36 sheeps Sceptorus. I don't know if this is a personality trait or anything, but this sounds like newbscum that agrees and latches on.
EchoVision - I am feeling slight town because of their single minded insistence to vote me. A mafia would hardly show the aggression that this shows.

Tunneling a player as scum is a pretty easy way to win.

Newbie 1986
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=82166

[72offsuit]

In my opinion if you have to lie about your choices/posts it's easier to make simple choices/posts over and over, like voting the same person, the way EchoVision did. If Noraa is lying about all of what she said it seems like a lot to make up on the spot.

Obviously I could be all wrong it just seems like pretty good reasoning considering it's page 2.

IMO that tunneling on me is townie aggression. You have a point there (repeating) though...

Scumshelly trying to play nice and be agreeable.

[72offsuit]

It's not necessarily contradictory because it could absolutely be that the two mafia voted for each other or made it seem like they disliked each other just to prove that they aren't related. And shelly the fact that u r replying to every single person's post and brushing away the fact that they are voting u by "friending" them and saying they seem townie is hella sus if u ask me. As for why ur posts were provocative, im starting to change my opinion and almost think ur trying to guilt trip them cuz they voted u and then u say eyyy u give off pure townie energy or something like that which if I was them, I would feel bad voting u soooo yeah.

Okay what you are describing here is a pocket. I literally think their actions are townie, is that a problem? So you're saying that townreading people is a crime? I acknowledged Frogster's view as well that they could be scum repeating their actions.

Overly defensive.
Echo is town for pushing you in rVS and im scum for pushing you with reasons?

[72offsuit]

Shelly is the most obvious newbie scum I have played with in a long long time. Posts like this ^.
Pure gold.

Unfortunately, you are incorrect. I'll prove you wrong.

Town's job isnt to prove themself to be town. Town's job is to kick scum.

[72offsuit]

Evidence of shelly not having a town mindset, but rather having a scum survival agenda

[72offsuit]

Terrible reaction. You just went from -5 on my scum-radar to -10.

I first come in and am aware of Sirius's attempts to give me a townpass. You see that as a scumslip (it is obviously not one).

Then I react saying you are wrong. I have no need to prove you wrong because I know I am town. My townieness will shine through.

Literally have no idea what you are doing by pushing me here. When are you going to keep making wrong cases, until lylo?

Im talking about your reaction to my push against you, nothing to do with sirius.

[72offsuit]

What is this? Warlocking? "dont lynch them yet" implied that you TR me? What is the reasoning of your TR

In this post I outlined the possibility of sirius warlocking me. I asked them for the reasoning for their TR on me (as they said "dont lynch them yet.")

You have made a mistake, sir.

lol no
i scumread you
we just still had a few days and i thought that we could observer for a longer period of time before voting

*declare intent to hammer*

are we just not gonna talk about sirius saying "i don't want you to get lynched yet we still have a little bit of time but hey here's intent to hammer"

that's what my "wtf" followed by a vote was at. i don't get how you're gonna declare intent to hammer on someone that's not at l-1 7 days before day ONE is over

also did you just not read and see that every post i made until post 69 had a vote for shelly in it why did you think i actually put her at l-1

Sure... Its a noobtell.

[72offsuit]

It's not necessarily contradictory because it could absolutely be that the two mafia voted for each other or made it seem like they disliked each other just to prove that they aren't related. And shelly the fact that u r replying to every single person's post and brushing away the fact that they are voting u by "friending" them and saying they seem townie is hella sus if u ask me. As for why ur posts were provocative, im starting to change my opinion and almost think ur trying to guilt trip them cuz they voted u and then u say eyyy u give off pure townie energy or something like that which if I was them, I would feel bad voting u soooo yeah.

noobtown 98.481%

do you have any experience on any other sites/a different account? or are you new to the game in general

btw i'm not being toxic calling you a noob, there's just certain play styles that are prevalent in newer players and that's what a fair bit of your posts are striking me as

VOTE: shelly

man i love to shitpost

agreeing vibes

=-=
dont lynch them yet

What is this? Warlocking? "dont lynch them yet" implied that you TR me? What is the reasoning of your TR

um p sure he was just saying that to make sure the day doesnt early, but ok

What is this? Warlocking? "dont lynch them yet" implied that you TR me? What is the reasoning of your TR

In this post I outlined the possibility of sirius warlocking me. I asked them for the reasoning for their TR on me (as they said "dont lynch them yet.")

You have made a mistake, sir.

lol no
i scumread you
we just still had a few days and i thought that we could observer for a longer period of time before voting

*declare intent to hammer*

i mean, you just went from not wanting to end the day prematurely to threatening to end the day prematurely

Shelly is the most obvious newbie scum I have played with in a long long time. Posts like this ^.
Pure gold.

Unfortunately, you are incorrect. I'll prove you wrong.

The fact you say I am "incorrect" rather than questioning if I am scum pushing you to get a miskick is pretty telling.

It speaks to a scum mindset - !scumShelly KNOWING I am town.

MY THOUGHTS EXACTLY OMG

[line][/line]
so basically, my thoughts can be summarised by looking at echovision posts, and besides that i feel early townvibes in frogster, 72's game has felt rather opportunistic so eary scumvibes there.

What opportunity am i taking advantage of? Which players do you think scumread Shelly?

[72offsuit]

@EchoVision I wanted to play forum mafia on a different site. They recommended I come here to learn. I shall observe more to learn faster that way I only seem 97% like a noob lol.

no that's okay! the main point of this queue is to learn and become a better player, which just comes with time. there's certain things that every new player just

has

to go through, we've all been there.
once you get experience and some games under your belt, it becomes easier and easier to look at a message and go "okay that's noob scum" or "that interactions undoubtedly town v. town" or "yeah that's something that a noob scum would never say, so they've gotta be noob town"

there's nothing wrong with having your plays or messages classified like that, it's part of the learning experience




i'm usually wrong anyways so fuck me

Pocketing this early huh? Gotta get those with less confidence in their reads to vote with you ASAP.

VOTE: echo

idk what to make of shelly yet but I'm kind of impressed they got to E-2 in just 2 pages lol

Seems really off to replace into a game and vote without reading the whole thread

[72offsuit]

RvS broken a long time ago.

[72offsuit]

What is this? Warlocking? "dont lynch them yet" implied that you TR me? What is the reasoning of your TR

In this post I outlined the possibility of sirius warlocking me. I asked them for the reasoning for their TR on me (as they said "dont lynch them yet.")

You have made a mistake, sir.

lol no
i scumread you
we just still had a few days and i thought that we could observer for a longer period of time before voting

*declare intent to hammer*

are we just not gonna talk about sirius saying "i don't want you to get lynched yet we still have a little bit of time but hey here's intent to hammer"

that's what my "wtf" followed by a vote was at. i don't get how you're gonna declare intent to hammer on someone that's not at l-1 7 days before day ONE is over

also did you just not read and see that every post i made until post 69 had a vote for shelly in it why did you think i actually put her at l-1

What is this? Warlocking? "dont lynch them yet" implied that you TR me? What is the reasoning of your TR

In this post I outlined the possibility of sirius warlocking me. I asked them for the reasoning for their TR on me (as they said "dont lynch them yet.")

You have made a mistake, sir.

lol no
i scumread you
we just still had a few days and i thought that we could observer for a longer period of time before voting

*declare intent to hammer*

this is too dumb of a play to be serious scum sirius right? They aren't at 1 vote away so intent means nothing.

This post sounds like !scumPlus hoping the answer to their question to be a no, and waiting for someone else to suggest it could in fact be !scumSirius

[72offsuit]

It's not necessarily contradictory because it could absolutely be that the two mafia voted for each other or made it seem like they disliked each other just to prove that they aren't related. And shelly the fact that u r replying to every single person's post and brushing away the fact that they are voting u by "friending" them and saying they seem townie is hella sus if u ask me. As for why ur posts were provocative, im starting to change my opinion and almost think ur trying to guilt trip them cuz they voted u and then u say eyyy u give off pure townie energy or something like that which if I was them, I would feel bad voting u soooo yeah.

noobtown 98.481%

do you have any experience on any other sites/a different account? or are you new to the game in general

btw i'm not being toxic calling you a noob, there's just certain play styles that are prevalent in newer players and that's what a fair bit of your posts are striking me as

VOTE: shelly

man i love to shitpost

agreeing vibes

=-=
dont lynch them yet

What is this? Warlocking? "dont lynch them yet" implied that you TR me? What is the reasoning of your TR

um p sure he was just saying that to make sure the day doesnt early, but ok

What is this? Warlocking? "dont lynch them yet" implied that you TR me? What is the reasoning of your TR

In this post I outlined the possibility of sirius warlocking me. I asked them for the reasoning for their TR on me (as they said "dont lynch them yet.")

You have made a mistake, sir.

lol no
i scumread you
we just still had a few days and i thought that we could observer for a longer period of time before voting

*declare intent to hammer*

i mean, you just went from not wanting to end the day prematurely to threatening to end the day prematurely

Shelly is the most obvious newbie scum I have played with in a long long time. Posts like this ^.
Pure gold.

Unfortunately, you are incorrect. I'll prove you wrong.

The fact you say I am "incorrect" rather than questioning if I am scum pushing you to get a miskick is pretty telling.

It speaks to a scum mindset - !scumShelly KNOWING I am town.

MY THOUGHTS EXACTLY OMG

[line][/line]
so basically, my thoughts can be summarised by looking at echovision posts, and besides that i feel early townvibes in frogster, 72's game has felt rather opportunistic so eary scumvibes there.

"Haha yes, I agree with all the pro-townie viewpoints"
No offense intended but safe play isn't helpful for scum hunting.

Scummy. Why the "no offence" comment?
Townies are much more likely to just call it as they see it.

Which posts of Frog's in particular give you townvibes and once again what opportunity is scumMe taking advantage of?

[72offsuit]

Oh sirius isn't a SE slot. Huh. Then that might have just been a scum slip.

Super forced post. Doesnt feel genuine at all to me.

[72offsuit]

I thought PlusJOYED was referring to 72offsuit as he but idk

Why does this even matter? This is just IIoA. Noraa is getting scummier by the minute

Worst reasoning ever to scumread someone.

[72offsuit]

Oh sirius isn't a SE slot. Huh. Then that might have just been a scum slip.

Huh what do you mean scumslip? Where did sirius scumslip

declaring intent to hammer this early.

To me, that's indicative of a scum trying to possibly get away with an early town kill, but they aren't at E-1 and hammering them now is too obvious. So they want to test the waters as scum first so they have better chance to hammer than just voting.
A townie version of that play there would be, if you think Shelly is scum, to just vote them, so another newb scum might try to get away with the quickhammer, and puts pressure on shelly. I don't really see how declaring intent to hammer helps.

Declaring intent to hammer is pretty scummy. But, if this is one of their first games, it might have been an honest mistake. Would like to see more pressure on them to see what they do.

If hammering now is too obvious, then y would sirius make that statement? I dont think scum ever signposts their intentions and i dont see newbiescum being strategic and trying to set up a kill like so.

[72offsuit]

So now they'll probably say "oops it was an honest mistake" or they'll say they wanted to lure scum.

If you think this is scummy behaviour, then y wudnt u let him do it, if u in fact think he is scum. Why pre-empt him?

[72offsuit]

I was going to agree that 72offuit's post didn't prove what it concluded so it was confusing. But then I just wanted to check to see if I understood PlusJOYED's post correctly.

yeah that was regarding shellys post. The wording came across as a lil scummy but could be nothing.

Wouldn't be surprised at all if the scumduo is Shelly+Plus. Back and forth discussion just for the sake of it.

[72offsuit]

Subject to change, but for now:
slight town lean: froster (effort to scumhunt), echo (effort to scumhunt)
null: shelly, noraa, 720
sligh scum lean: sirius (for reasons stated earlier), scepterous (has made 1 post that basically said "I agree with everyone so far"), niaking (active lurking)

I understand frosters FoS on 720 but they could just been wanting to pressure shelly and not, ya know, hammer them. But hasn't been really pro town yet. Would prefer to exert pressure on Sirius, sceptorous, or niaking. Anyone wanna join? Though I'll be unvoting at E-1 unless they prove to act very scummy since I don't wanna hammer yet.

@Echo - what are your thoughts on this reads list?

[72offsuit]

Tunneling a player as scum is a pretty easy way to win.

If it's an easy way to win, this contradicts your thinking of scum being conservative. If scum could tunnel and win, the argument that I'm scum hedging my bets doesn't stand.

1. You are twisting my words here, be it intentionally or through confbias by misquoting, by removing the context.
My statement was in response to you saying Echo is town for pushing aggressively against you. It has nothing to do with your play, if you bothered to try to consider my post from a town perspective, which if you are town, i am 75 percent likely to be town.

2. Im questioning the intent behind your read on echo in that post to try and sort your slot. Instead of explaining why you think echos push is town pressuring rather than scum tunneling, you turn it into an attack against me.

3. Scum can win by both tunneling and leading a miskick on town, or by being non-comittal and keeping options open to hop onto a leading wagon that is most convenient. I'm discussing what i think is your intent in this game. You on the other hand are discussing general scum theory and simply trying to shade me.

[72offsuit]

I have come to the conclusion that 72offsuit is scum here.

#26 says low effort. Scumhunting requires effort to push and question. Tell me why this isn't a scum motive.
#27 wagons me and takes me to L-2 which I regard as a scumtell. Scum would push me to a mislim.
#60 sets me up as lynchbait
I used the words "Unfortunately, you are incorrect. I'll prove you wrong." Because I know I am town, and you push me, you must be incorrect.
#73 randomly says that's a bad reaction which doesn't make sense.
#74 I say you are incorrect but I didn't regard you as scum yet. I respect all efforts to push an elim.
#129 pure personality. time to use informal language so you TR me. Doesn't make sense at all.
#157 I refuted this earlier

So basically all your posts are tunneling me with flawed logic - which corresponds to your claim that scum tunneling is an easy win.

VOTE: 72offsuit DIE MAFIA SCUM!

After i discuss the discrepancy in your playstyle which you ADMIT to, you conveniently attempt to mimic your post from newbie 2025.

[72offsuit]

"26 says low effort. Scumhunting requires effort to push and question. Tell me why this isn't a scum motive."

How does! ScumMe saying "im going to give low effort" further !scumMe's Agenda. Honestly think it through for 2 seconds.

[72offsuit]

@Frog - your thoughts on Plus' readslist?

[72offsuit]

Will catch up tomorrow evening

[72offsuit]

Im. Here. Apologies for the absence. Work has been full on.

[72offsuit]

Ive read tge thread on mobile, scribbled down notes.
Basically:
Plus is a huge scumread.
Was getting townier vibes on shelly, until the posts 400 and 401 being exactly the same format - looks like copy paste from scum PT.
Will type up my notes tomorrow. 1141pm.

[72offsuit]

Happy Father's Day to all the dads out there, even if you don't celebrate Father's Day today!

[72offsuit]

HOLD TF UP
sirius is an se?!

SE just means you have played a few newbie games, along with a game outside the newbie queue. It doesn't turn you into Sherlock Holmes.

[72offsuit]

Yeah I was about to get annoyed 72o because you came off all strong in the start then disappeared but it makes sense to me that school started for you this week, I live in a college town so I've experienced that vicariously through them.

I also have good and bad news for you guys, and the same news is both, I'm town reading 72o, PLUS, and shelly in addition to Noraa and Echo from before. Here's how I picture this game, in no particular order:

Town Experienced: shelly, 720, PLUS, Echo

Town Inexperienced: Noraa, Sirius

Null:

Nikahang

,

Sceptorus

Null Inexperienced:

Sirius

I'm mostly interested in voting the player's names who are above me because as mafia it's easiest for them to hide in these roles and overall the three above have done the least for town.

I live in Melbourne, Australia. I've just had a tiring 6-day week and had stuff to organise for Father's Day.

[72offsuit]

The lack of scumleans/scumreads is concerning ^

[72offsuit]

102 Scummy - Replaces in with an RVS vote, not caring whether RVS has been broken or if a player was at Kick-1 already.

105 Scummy – Rhetorical question. Newbie scum tend to find it hard to act natural. Rhetorical questions are an easy way to feign emotions – eg frustration
The question also feels like !scumPlus hoping someone answers no, and will join Plus in SRing !townSirius

107 Scummy – Feels like a forced, non-genuine post

115 and 116 – “Id like to put more pressure” on Sirius, but I’ll also provide him a defence “it might have been an honest mistake” – It’s not pressure when you give the player an out. It doesn’t feel consistent with a townie trying probe and set traps for scum to fall into.

122 – Inconsistency: Wants to question Echo, despite “everything else they did is pretty townie”
Grilling someone over a post, whilst telling them you townread them isn’t going to pressure !scumEcho into saying something scummy. Another instance of what feels like Plus’ words not marrying up with his intentions

125 – Reads list: “Subject to change, but for now”… over-explainy, suggests a defensive and guilty scum-mindset. Like Shelly has stated, reads list is extremely unoriginal and low-hanging fruit - scumreads lurkers and townreads active players.

206 - Responds to my 180 , Answers my point against him regarding his “no comment” (defends himself against me saying this was scummy), but ignores my questions about frog and in what way I have been opportunistic (queries relating to alignment-solving).

207 Scummy ++
Why does it make no sense to go for a solve? Discouraging players from solving the game is scummy.
I’ve done it before on day 1: Newbie 1987, in post 386
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... &start=725

225 – Sounds like scum rueing a missed opportunity – I don’t see why town regrets what behaviour or what post they made earlier – town’s goal is to find and kick scum, not be concerned with how they appear to others.

332 – “I'm not sure if sceptorous and niaking are newbie scum because they don't know what to say and are worried about being found out, or if they are just aparhetic townies” … Fence sitting

351 – “I dislike this logic even though it is probably correct since it makes me look scummy and that interferes with my LAMIST” … guilty mindset yet again … town’s goal is to find and kick scum, not be concerned with how they appear to others.

382 – “what makes you think we can't both be townies? Just gut feeling?” 225 – Scum rueing the fact they aren’t being townread

UNVOTE: Shellyc

VOTE: PlusJOYED ,

now at K-2

[72offsuit]

*SE-hat on*

@ Shelly, I think this post is something you would benefit from reading through and mulling over if you are town:

It's by word321 in newbie game 2022 in post-game feedback that succinctly articulates what I think of your slot this game

As for the feedback, I think that Ive already said everything I could say to the scum team on the last day, I guess; nothing else comes to mind
And for the rest, Id say to have an eye on objectives behind actions, or try to guess what ppl r trying to acomplish, more than direct "tells" like acting like scum; scum actively tries to play like town; what differs is in the intention behind actions more than actions.
Oc, take everything I say with a grain of salt, but I hope it helps a lil bit at least.

[72offsuit]

(I was reading that post-game and word's post made me think of your slot)

[72offsuit]

woo! post #500

[72offsuit]

Rereading shelly, reads more like a newbietown who thinks every single post is alignment indicative AND is pre-occupied with themself as being town, so anyone who SRs them is scum.

[72offsuit]

I'm really struggling to get over posts 400 and 401 though.

I can understand both posting similar thoughts, but WORD FOR WORD AND FORMATTING literally verbatim is disturbing. There are like 20 ways the 2 posts could differ, from the order of 72/frog vs frog/72, to punctuation

[72offsuit]

Rereading shelly, reads more like a newbietown who thinks every single post is alignment indicative AND is pre-occupied with themself as being town, so anyone who SRs them is scum.

inaccurate statement. she used to be at like E-2 or something. half the town would have to be scum for that statement to be true

K-2 is 3 players

[72offsuit]

uh plus said it was a joke or something

OK I must've missed that

[72offsuit]

Nice pocket 72offsuit. I will not give you townpoints for TRing me yet.

Do you really think !scumMe tries to pocket you after pushing you? How effective do you think this would be on any given player?

[72offsuit]

Spoiler:

Take a deep breath, then scream for help in your PT.

First you sheep almost all of my case towards 72offsuit. Town, look at 193 then 207. It's obvious PlusJoy is hard sheeping me here, not making any effort to solve.
207 says "yeah idk"

AGREEING

with me. then PlusJoy says a bunch of IIoA. I don't want to hear you spitting mafia theory at me. 208 basically sheeps the part where I SR them.

Then 225

continues to sheep my 72offsuit SR.

Instead of exploring other worlds or solves.
"logic doesn't make sense" - plusjoy in 225
"flawed logic" - me in 193

240 says that they have been "mostly independent" wtf PlusJoy after reading your ISO thrice I just

don't see

where you express original thoughts.

241 states I am town because of

gut feeling

. I feel this is a very unwarranted TR and most likely a pocket. then 243 encourages lurkers to talk which is a form of LAMIST - thats very easy towncred.

Then 254 continuedly puts 72offsuit as scum (as I said), still putting me as town, putting echo as town, and lurkers at scumlean

This game is not a game of "

get the lurkers to talk

". it's a game of finding the mafia and kicking them. Lurkers will get replaced. I don't get the heavy SR lean on the lurkers. This is probably finding filler SRs.

One thing I'd like to point out is 207 first puts 72offsuit as scum, but the vote only comes in 254. Why didn't you put a vote down earlier?

Votes aren't matching up with actions

; another scumtell

256 doesn't show town motives at all. Hey, our job is to

find scum, not obvtown

. Scum could try and look town as well; it doesn't help.

271

blatantly pockets

echo again. The quite unwarranted TR of echo rings a bell to my pocketing in the scumgame i just played

Then you put 72offsuit at L-1 without announcing it.

What?!

then you claim it as a "mistake". So basically your thought process is "wait till votes pile on them and lightly SR them until the chance to put at L-1 comes"

300 starts AtEing and

deflecting towards me

. I never sheeped anyone. I know I wasn't the first to vote you; doesn't mean I sheep. Very flawed logic.

332 SRs the lurking people AGAIN. LURKERS GET REPLACED. yes talking is beneficial but replacements exist

340 attempts to pocket Noraa. Now I'd like to point this out: basically plusjoy has TR everyone except the lurkers and 72offsuit, which

doesn't help

. if we flip the lurkers and they are red we don't get associative tells.

363 is AtEing towards Noraa. it's obvious Noraa is firmly in your pocket

386

pivots on the 72offsuit SR.

have no idea why you arbitrarily decide to pivot. So your only SRs are the lurkers at this point? Yeah sirius isn't being helpful but policy elims often benefit scum. imo scum!sirius doesn't play jester like

390 suggests TvT with me and you which doesn't make sense frankly. it's almost surely

TvS

and you're the scum.

393 backtracks on the lurker scumreads. SO YOU HAVE

NO SCUMREADS

NOW WTF PLUSJOY? then scum!plusjoy probs realises this and arbitrarily adds a 72 SR but you listed them as "could be town" in 386

401 susses frogster as the 72 partner, BUT 409 says slight TR frogster

8 posts later

. that's a very, very illogical leap.

414 what?? AtEing me now woah you can cut down the AtEs next time as scum

415 is very

image conscious

- you either put me there if you think im scum or don't put me there if you think im town. "probably die" why be afraid of nightkills? and if you're town there's no reason to fear a mislim either

437 meta-SRs me despite stating that they don't like using meta earlier. probably trying to secure a mislim with me at L-2 here

So basically PlusJoy's ISO looks very, very scummy here. My vote stays on them and I urge y'all townies to look in the mirror and realise how scummy this man is.

I don't care about your "sheeping" case on me because I ain't sheeping. My townieness will shine through penultimately and you can flip red.

I do like you points here. It basically reflects what I see as Plus' inconsistency with what he is saying and what he is doing/voting/where he is directing his posts towards.

[72offsuit]

Do you really think !scumMe tries to pocket you after pushing you? How effective do you think this would be on any given player?

Early game pushes me for being paranoid and defensive which I do even as town. READ NEWBIE 2025
Then pockets me because I SR everyone who SRs me and scum!you gets a townpass from me easily

I ignore self meta. I find it a waste of time.
!townyou points me towards posts/games in which you are town and have similar posts/behaviour to this game.
!scumyou points me towards posts/games in which you are town and have similar posts/behaviour to this game.

[72offsuit]

Lol. Worst request for a claim and worst claim ever, even for a. Newbie game.

[72offsuit]

UNVOTE: PlusJOYED

I dont buy the claim.

1. Total scumbucket, so i think its extremely likely just scum role fishing and trying to avert their lynch.

2. No PR is that ready to out themselves at the drop if a hat, especially not when:
A) a player requested for no hammers
B) we have replacements incoming
C) request for a claim came from their scumread
D) request came from a player who was already on their wagon And unable to actually hammer

Unvoting until replacements in.

[72offsuit]

I think we should still kick PlusJOYED despite that terrible claim

[72offsuit]

I really just wanted to stay alive day/night 1, guess that's not happening now

Appeal to emotion.

[72offsuit]

I still wish to stubbornly believe this is TvT even tho the odds of that happening seem a lil too small.....
Im not choosing a side until I hear some se opinions. I want to hear 72's, frogster's, and echo's

What does your gut say?

[72offsuit]

At work, finishing lunch. This game is just LOL. Indont think this eill be immortalised in any hall of fame.

[72offsuit]

I have like 23 pages left to read for a day one that should have ended on like page 25

[72offsuit]

Whats the TLDR summary?

[72offsuit]

i’m actually fine with not killing either of shelly or plus today

plus can prove himself to someone else MAYBE
if he doesn’t then we kill him
if he does we kill shelly

but idk how we’re gonna pick someone and keep them alive

Echo dont throw the game. We arent lynching outside of a 50/50

[72offsuit]

I think i shudnt have unvoted so that hammer wouldve gone through

[72offsuit]

@Mundivore
valid point on Redados. He seemed like he knew he hammered yet didn't give any kind of heads up. that's scummy imo. personally didn't see the pocketing pls elaborate.
sirius was replaced I'm pretty sure
echos play style just seems to be like that. its pretty daring but it seems like something that I feel like he would tone down if mafia and I don't see that hear so my tr on him stays.
72 is a tr for me for now
frog is null now bc I thought offering to give a free town pass to everyone that voted plus seemed a lil scummy
I have however tr'ed frog for a very long time so he might go back to that list soon

Get lost. Keep scumreading me.

[72offsuit]

VC 1.13

shellyc (1)

- PlusJOYED

PlusJOYED (2)

- shellyc, Mundivore

Noraa (1)

- Sirius9121

Redados (1)

- Noraa

Not Voting (4)

- 72offsuit, EchoVision, Redados, Frogsterking

With 9 unfortunate souls alive, you need 5 votes to eliminate.

PlusJOYED is at E-3

Deadline:

(expired on 2020-09-08 12:00:00)

Let me know if there are any errors

Nvm deadline 21 hours.

If you are town, vote for a PlusJOYED kick

VOTE: PlusJOYED

[72offsuit]

1. Absolute Scumbucket
2. First to claim PR is usually scum going down and trying to rolefish b4 they die/get the wagon off their back

[72offsuit]

PlusJoyed is at E-2

[72offsuit]

Game is won by kicking amongst
shelly (i think there is a decent chance plus+shelly psoting same thing was a scum PR copy paste confusion between them)
Frogster
Mundie
Redados
Probs in that order.
Never kick Echo nor Nora.

[72offsuit]

If PLUS inexplicably flips town then same applies

[72offsuit]

Alright I was thinking about how frog voted while I was eating and here's what I think now: Since plus is tfn, we are in column b of the chart thingie. That means that we have a mafia goon and a mafia roleblocker. Shelly outed scum d1. Imo that means she is a mafia goon. So I will, along with frog, attempt to find the mafia roleblocker. I would like to put some pressure on Mundivore for pushing me towards a plus lim. VOTE: Mundivore

Also would like to point out that this post sounded so so fancy imo so lol if ur gonna reply to this post, it would be much appreciated if u noted how smancy and SE it sounds

TFN means we are in a setup with a roleCOP, not a roleBLoCKER.

[72offsuit]

@shelly - just some feedback - im really not sure why you fake claimed. Plus was heavily scumread, there wasnt rly a need to sac urself. TFN is also a rly weak PR.

Pretty sure frog wudnt agree to shelly saccing herself, in scum pt

Mundi is probs scum.

VOTE: Shellyc

[72offsuit]

@ Mundivore - who is scum?

[72offsuit]

@ Mundivore - who is scum?

Hi 72. I came into today prepared to ask you to post more because I'm having a hard time getting a read on you. I looked over your ISO for evidence of your supposed inactivity. Most of your posts were before PLUSjoy and Shellys' role flips, but that makes sense given the proportion of IRL days before and after that hammer.

However after looking over your ISO I am lightly townreading you. So I don't feel like I have to push you as much to share your thoughts. However I would still ask that you post more and share more thoughts today.

I would agree here bc I have a hard time putting reads together in general .... not to mention I have a worse time if they don't talk. But what I was wondering when I saw this post was : Why mundivore? A lil theory just popped up in my head and idk if it's right. it might not even make much sense but anyways here it is: so shelly was rolecop, the description of that role says that they can check people's roles. If shelly and 72 were scum and shelly used her ability, maybe they had determined that mundivore is the pr or something and now they are testing him? idk that was thought off the top of my head sooooo it might not make sense. I can try to explain it differently but that sounded about right when I read it over so ye.

Nora, if u r town I think you need to keep things a bit simpler. This is like a 1 in a 1000 theory. o.O I'm not even really sure what the purpose of said test would be / what benefits scum would get if they already knew who was the PR.

I asked mundicore on his reads because i think he is the most likely remaining scum. I wanted to see what his reads were, so that i could review if these reads were consistent drom a town or scum point of view.

[72offsuit]

Why is it strange to ask a low posting player on their thoughts?

[72offsuit]

@ Mundivore - who is scum?

Either Sirius or Noraa. Leaning towards Sirius because of bloodthirsty voting on Day 1.

Zero effort post doesnt sound like town trying to convince fellow townies as to who the last scum is.

[72offsuit]

@ Mundivore - who is scum?

Either Sirius or Noraa. Leaning towards Sirius because of bloodthirsty voting on Day 1.

And actually, we can't just sit around all day doing nothing. So let's start with VOTE: Noraa.

1. I think there's even odds you're scum so I wouldn't be upset to see you go.

2. I want to see what people's reactions to this vote are.

Reaction tests are pretty lame and rarely catch scum.

Why would you not just vote for your top SR noraa?

[72offsuit]

Sirius*

[72offsuit]

I mean, Nikahang just voted for shelly over and over and never did anything else that game. It's possible for scum to do that, but it would be weird. I'd expect scum to do something more like Sirius did—lead with a vote on a scummate if it was a wagon, then hop to the freshest wagon. Sirius likes wagons so far, and in my experience that's a scum trait.

But my voting for you is not OMGUS. I've been sus of you since Day 1 lmao. I'm mostly voting just to see what happens, there are a couple of different reactions I'm interested in seeing.

Also, just gotta say, if I was scum:

1) I walk in and shelly has just made that crazy play. Why would I have pressured a kill on Plus so aggressively? It was probably completely unnecessary to get the kill (considering plus himself was angling for it) and ultimately got a lot more attention put on me. It's also debatable that it's

even better

for scum if I don't pressure you into making the kill and let you go the day without the kill happening. It puts the game into the same game-state (ultimately town still has wasted an elim, so scum still gets another night) except that now scum has more control over the outcome. Scum has more flexible options if there's no kill: they can NK plus to create the same game-state, we're currently in, or gamble on the set of possible night-actions to hope for a scenario where nobody receives Plus' night action to try to get shelly to live for another day

2) Frankly, the fact that the people who were NK'd were all people who FoS'd me at some point is NAI. I've seen scum try to use their NK's to frame people more often than I've seen them try to use them to eliminate critics. Think about it: the way scum wins is by getting them to waste their elims. There is no other victory condition for scum, that's just how the numbers play out. Every time town kills a townie, scum gets one more night. Every time town skips a vote and every other time after that, scum gets another night. Scum need three false elims to win in total.

Defensive NKs point a bunch of arrows towards you. It might reduce some day suspicion, but if someone notices, there's a decent chance the town tries to kill you. It puts you in the spotlight even if you successfully defend yourself in the daythread, and might force you to try to fakeclaim to stay alive, which often leads to a 50/50 which is quite bad for scum. Meanwhile, framing someone else with your NK's puts

them

in the spotlight, taking pressure off of you. It's especially effective if you don't draw attention to it, and see if someone else connects the dots to the person you're framing, although you can pull it out yourself to get the final miselim too. Basically, as scum, you don't want to be feeding townies lines that give them better odds of catching scum than elim'ing purely randomly, and playing often leads to that.

3) Let's say I am scum, and I am using my NK defensively. I'd rather kill 72 than Frogster: 72 also announced suspicion of me, and while Frogster FoS'd me Day 2, I seem to recall that he liked me Day 1. Not sure on that. Either way, 72 seems to have more of a proclivity towards tunneling on scum targets, and I was his sole scumread at that point. His initial suspicion of shelly was long and aggressive, and after the counterclaim nonsense he continued to think that Plus was scum. I think it's pretty clear that 72 and shelly can't have been scummates, so I definitely would have killed him night 2 if I hadn't on night 1.

I actually still think that the Sirius/shelly scumteam is a bit more plausible than the Noraa/shelly scumteam. I'm mostly just trying to get discussion rolling, and people tend to start replying when you vote for them. To that end,

VOTE: Sirius9121

What do you think about all this, huh?

Focus on Wifom night kill spec and discussion about already dead players rather than the players remaining is not a town mindset.

[72offsuit]

Actually, I'm happy with my vote where it was. VOTE: Noraa.

I think there's a good chance town has just won. Let me explain:

I'm the Tracker. Night 1, I followed Sirius. No action—unless shelly did both actions Night 1, which risks being totally shut down by a potential Jailer, then Sirius is town. Night 2, I followed Redados. No action, so Redados is conftown. By play, 72 is very likely town.

Scenario 1: Nobody counterclaims me. This makes me conftown. We kill Noraa. If that's somehow not right... well, we'll see. It's probably 72 in this case, I think it's more likely that 72 couldn't reign in a teammate than that scum would risk getting both their kill and their rolecop read eaten by a potential Jailer. However, I'm pretty sure it's Noraa at this point—I misremembered, and thought that my Night 1 action was on 72, not Sirius, hence my not getting to this sooner.

Scenario 2: I get counterclaimed. It's 50/50 between me and the person who counterclaims. We have room for one miselim, so we just kill both and Town wins 100% of the time.

I admit that this has a failure condition, but with three FoS's on me already, I think claiming now isn't too aggressive anyways. Worst case scenario still involves dodging me getting miselim'd—the only way town should kill me after this claim is if scum counter-claims.

Why would you claim?????

[72offsuit]

Nvm. It was good you claimed.
I dont CC.

[72offsuit]

Intent to hammer norra.

I don t rly have any more to add.
Awaiting if others want to discuss anything.

[72offsuit]

First time ive seen a PR replace out.

[72offsuit]

Reminder to self before i forget again - early reads r way better than later reads

[72offsuit]

Gg. Wp town.

Winning as scum in this setup is the hardest imo.
2 PRs to contend with and rolecop is so much weaker than roleblocker imo.

[72offsuit]

It was nice playing with you all, would gladly play with any of you again.

[72offsuit]

also great game-winning tracking and claiming by Mundivore! And great YOLOing by Sirius!

I have some questions.

@Noraa - did you not want to vote for PLUS/Shelly one day one because you didn't want to lim scum (goes against win condition) and you didn't want to lim town (because it doesn't get you town cred)?
@Mundivore, can you talk me through your voting motivations on day one?
@Sirius, can you talk me through your voting motivations on day one?

I'm excited to see the scum PT after Noraa releases

Yes, the track was fortunate to be on a player who wasnt killed, the claim was a good move.

Saccing urslef as scum day 1 is almost suicide, doing it day 2 with a townie alrdy is ok i guess.

[72offsuit]

Last thoughts:
1. Kudos to redados on some really good reads and for being so pro-town.

2. Thanks again JV for hosting - Timely VCs with links and cute doggos to boot